Unai Emery

[ChicagoLion]

You wonder if the drop off in Torres passing was due to Rogers move wide, that was often the vertical ball that got us running at a retreating defence.

I think that's a good point. Also last season, a lot of those "good" Torres passes were bypassing Kamara and DL, straight through them and the opposition to Tielemans who was further forward than he has been for a lot of this season, who then collected on the half-turn to carry it forward and play in Bailey or Watkins.

If Torres is now giving an easy ball to Tielemans twenty yards further back, it makes Tielemans' passing through the lines look better this season because he's now playing the Torres passes. But also means Pau looks like he's doing a lot less (which he sort of is) and it means that bit of his game becomes less important to us.

I think the above combined with certain teams working us out and giving less time and opportunity to Torres is also a possibility.


I have no doubts that Torres distribution is superior to Mings but I question if it makes up for his poorer defensive qualities.

[KevinGage]

I also find the erasure in people's minds of Torres and Konsa being our first choice CB pairing (when fit) for the entire 23/24 season where we finished 4th, got UCL and our highest ever points total utterly bizarre.

Another way to cut that is he was part of a defence that conceded 61 goals - a record for a team finishing in the top 4 since Norwich managed it all the way back in 1992/93.

Defence was clearly an area we needed to improve this year, as that kind of goals against doesn't get you top 4 most seasons. Konsa has looked better  - at times.  Torres somehow looked worse than 2023/24 overall.

Our improvement this season came with Mings' return to the side.

It's not great that an England international like Konsa needs Mings (or anyone, for that matter) alongside him to get the best out of him. But there it is. 

[LukeJames]

One of my favourite stats is Norwich finishing 3rd on a minus GD.

[olaftab]

You wonder if the drop off in Torres passing was due to Rogers move wide, that was often the vertical ball that got us running at a retreating defence.

I think that's a good point. Also last season, a lot of those "good" Torres passes were bypassing Kamara and DL, straight through them and the opposition to Tielemans who was further forward than he has been for a lot of this season, who then collected on the half-turn to carry it forward and play in Bailey or Watkins.

If Torres is now giving an easy ball to Tielemans twenty yards further back, it makes Tielemans' passing through the lines look better this season because he's now playing the Torres passes. But also means Pau looks like he's doing a lot less (which he sort of is) and it means that bit of his game becomes less important to us.

Torres was most effective when we had Bailey in decent form and Diaby running at defenders just to the left of Bailey. Torres's 50 yarders from left to right were picked up by one of them and were a nightmare for defenders. So  for Torres to be passing short to Tielemans who in turn looks for Watkins or Rogers has somewhat negated his longer ball play. As this can't be corrected due to a poor Bailey and no "Diaby" we may as well replace Torres with a better defender with good short range passing capability.

[VillaTim]

One of my favourite stats is Norwich finishing 3rd on a minus GD.

Was Torres in their defence ..

[brontebilly]

You wonder if the drop off in Torres passing was due to Rogers move wide, that was often the vertical ball that got us running at a retreating defence.

I think that's a good point. Also last season, a lot of those "good" Torres passes were bypassing Kamara and DL, straight through them and the opposition to Tielemans who was further forward than he has been for a lot of this season, who then collected on the half-turn to carry it forward and play in Bailey or Watkins.

If Torres is now giving an easy ball to Tielemans twenty yards further back, it makes Tielemans' passing through the lines look better this season because he's now playing the Torres passes. But also means Pau looks like he's doing a lot less (which he sort of is) and it means that bit of his game becomes less important to us.

Torres was most effective when we had Bailey in decent form and Diaby running at defenders just to the left of Bailey. Torres's 50 yarders from left to right were picked up by one of them and were a nightmare for defenders. So  for Torres to be passing short to Tielemans who in turn looks for Watkins or Rogers has somewhat negated his longer ball play. As this can't be corrected due to a poor Bailey and no "Diaby" we may as well replace Torres with a better defender with good short range passing capability.

Somebody will have to get the heatmap out.
! Where did Torres find players last season v this season. That switch to Bailey/Diaby does seem familiar. Tielemans at 10 was always solid to hold possession. Maybe all valid reasons. But Asensio has an outstanding first touch. Rogers wont stretch teams on the right like Bailey or Diaby particularly. Is Watkins coming more to feet? He certainly didn't v Newcastle!

But I thought Torres decline started in the back end of last season. He got injured from memory, Kamara got injured around same time. So he really struggled for a while and Luiz struggled. Those two used combine very well on the left side. So maybe teams learned a bit more about his strengths and weaknesses too. Bog standard PL teams and forwards target him, Jimenez at Fulham for example. PL defenders can't be getting done like that. I think he's lost confidence on the ball a bit too, not stepping into midfield, caught last Sunday, caught at Spurs, crazy square ball at RBL - all unlike him.

[PeterWithe]

Torres hits a decent long ball from the left CB position out to the right side forward attacking positions, but so does Mings. Where the former scores much higher is the line breaking vertical passes along the deck to whoever is playing as the '10'. Mings doesn't even see those, there are few CBs who do.

[PaulWinch again]

Torres hits a decent long ball from the left CB position out to the right side forward attacking positions, but so does Mings. Where the former scores much higher is the line breaking vertical passes along the deck to whoever is playing as the '10'. Mings doesn't even see those, there are few CBs who do.

Yeah from memory the Duran Bayern goal was that.

[Somniloquism]

Also something similar at the PSG home match to Asensio where he couldn't slip it under DonnaSummer.

[Dave]

To McGinn for Watkins' goal against Palace.

[paul_e]

Torres has 2 major strengths to his game that set him apart of any of our other CBs (and from CBs in the league). The first is his willingness to drive forward with the ball and commit defenders. If he has good movement around him this opens gaps that just don't appear for players like Mings and Konsa who are far more likely to use that space to put their foot on the ball and look for a pass. It's not so much that what Torres does is better, but it is different and creates different problems for the opposition.

The other, as above, is his ability to pick passes into dangerous areas. Most premier league centre backs are capable of a 40-50yard pass to the opposite wing, that's almost a necessity to make it at this level and Torres is, of course, very good at those passes. What he adds on top is the flat passes into the gaps between the lines or between CB and RB that either directly lead to scoring chances or are the pass before the assist.

He's wasn't as good this season (and there's a bunch of reasons for it) but he still played plenty of those passes that threatened to open us chances.

His big weakness is that he's not good enough in the air and teams have targeted that.

[Rigadon]

Torres has 2 major strengths to his game that set him apart of any of our other CBs (and from CBs in the league). The first is his willingness to drive forward with the ball and commit defenders. If he has good movement around him this opens gaps that just don't appear for players like Mings and Konsa who are far more likely to use that space to put their foot on the ball and look for a pass. It's not so much that what Torres does is better, but it is different and creates different problems for the opposition.

The other, as above, is his ability to pick passes into dangerous areas. Most premier league centre backs are capable of a 40-50yard pass to the opposite wing, that's almost a necessity to make it at this level and Torres is, of course, very good at those passes. What he adds on top is the flat passes into the gaps between the lines or between CB and RB that either directly lead to scoring chances or are the pass before the assist.

He's wasn't as good this season (and there's a bunch of reasons for it) but he still played plenty of those passes that threatened to open us chances.

His big weakness is that he's not good enough in the air and teams have targeted that.

Agree with all of that.  He probably needs a right sided Mings to play with to be fully effective.  I doubt Konsa can be that player.

[RamboandBruno]

Torres has 2 major strengths to his game that set him apart of any of our other CBs (and from CBs in the league). The first is his willingness to drive forward with the ball and commit defenders. If he has good movement around him this opens gaps that just don't appear for players like Mings and Konsa who are far more likely to use that space to put their foot on the ball and look for a pass. It's not so much that what Torres does is better, but it is different and creates different problems for the opposition.

The other, as above, is his ability to pick passes into dangerous areas. Most premier league centre backs are capable of a 40-50yard pass to the opposite wing, that's almost a necessity to make it at this level and Torres is, of course, very good at those passes. What he adds on top is the flat passes into the gaps between the lines or between CB and RB that either directly lead to scoring chances or are the pass before the assist.

He's wasn't as good this season (and there's a bunch of reasons for it) but he still played plenty of those passes that threatened to open us chances.

His big weakness is that he's not good enough in the air and teams have targeted that.

Refreshing analysis from the Mings is a better defender, Torres is not that good, narrative.

[paul_e]

Agree with all of that.  He probably needs a right sided Mings to play with to be fully effective.  I doubt Konsa can be that player.

definitely not, I like van Hecke at Brighton, I think he'd be a really good partner for him. Alternatively Newcastle are being linked with Thiaw at Milan and I think he'd be a really good fit as well, if we could sneak in. I'm sure there's plenty more but those 2 are the right age, good in the air, decent with the ball at their feet and would give us a much better balance if Torres is our first choice on the right side.

[VillaTim]

These 2 major strengths you are saying he has , the eye test would challenge that assertion because we haven't seen much of it this season . "Driving forward with the ball" , not seen much of this .
Bottom line is Torres has regressed this season and has been a liability defensively particularly in the big games when it mattered but also in the run of the mill games where he is easily bullied and lacks and leadership skills or comms with the rest of the backline .
I don't think it's a case of him hitting the gym either as he just seems a very poor defender wIth no real awareness of being able to read danger or cut things out .
We have been blessed down the years in B6 with some superb CB's and Torres isn't cutting it as one who will be remembered for the right reasons .