Unai Emery

[Monty]

A worse error than playing a throughball for the opposition striker, sure. Christ's sake man, drop the obsessions.

[brontebilly]

I think there’s some confirmation bias here - I agree Mings should have started against Palace, due to their specific threat. But against Man Utd, a. to pin it on Torres is crazy and b. we should have been looking to dominate on the ball. Handily it seems to be forgotten that in other crucial games - Fulham, Bournemouth, Spurs Torres started, we won, and we didn’t concede.

Mings started at Bournemouth , when he went off and Torres entered the fray the wheels came off at the back only Cash and Martinez making world class saves / clearances saved us .

Nothing to do with being 10 men during that period at all, no sirree. The 10 mins between Mings going off and the red card, they created fuck-all like they did the rest of the match.

That header Evanilson missed when Torres was ball watching. Was that before the red card? I'm fairly sure it was but happy to be corrected. I just remember thinking at the time, Mings didn't give him a kick before then.

[Somniloquism]

I think Torres was brought in to give us the option to play 3 at the back. Unai struggled getting the team as a whole to adapt / evolve to an alternative system, with Torres being shoe horned a bit to suit the system.

Emery's never played three at the back has he?

Palace away this season was his one attempt to try to counter their formation.

[Somniloquism]

I think there’s some confirmation bias here - I agree Mings should have started against Palace, due to their specific threat. But against Man Utd, a. to pin it on Torres is crazy and b. we should have been looking to dominate on the ball. Handily it seems to be forgotten that in other crucial games - Fulham, Bournemouth, Spurs Torres started, we won, and we didn’t concede.

Mings started at Bournemouth , when he went off and Torres entered the fray the wheels came off at the back only Cash and Martinez making world class saves / clearances saved us .

Nothing to do with being 10 men during that period at all, no sirree. The 10 mins between Mings going off and the red card, they created fuck-all like they did the rest of the match.

That header Evanilson missed when Torres was ball watching. Was that before the red card? I'm fairly sure it was but happy to be corrected. I just remember thinking at the time, Mings didn't give him a kick before then.

It was after the same as every other chance they had in the closing moments. Although as Konsa was closely marking Evanilson when Torres glanced around and then wasn't when the ball came in, was it all on Torres? The same with the back post ball that Cash stopped from being an easy goal where the player ran from Digne. Again they might have been stopped with Mings being on the pitch and both the other defenders might have done better jobs with Mings on the pitch, but both also had other defenders at fault as much as Torres.

[Dave]

I think Torres was brought in to give us the option to play 3 at the back. Unai struggled getting the team as a whole to adapt / evolve to an alternative system, with Torres being shoe horned a bit to suit the system.

Emery's never played three at the back has he?

Palace away this season was his one attempt to try to counter their formation.

Sure, but in the sense that there's nothing in Emery's history to suggest that we bought Torres with a view to playing anywhere other than in the style he's been used for the last two seasons.

[ChicagoLion]

To settle the Torres argument, can we have another look at the stats?

[VillaTim]

To settle the Torres argument, can we have another look at the stats?

you mean the confirmation bias surely

[brontebilly]

I think there’s some confirmation bias here - I agree Mings should have started against Palace, due to their specific threat. But against Man Utd, a. to pin it on Torres is crazy and b. we should have been looking to dominate on the ball. Handily it seems to be forgotten that in other crucial games - Fulham, Bournemouth, Spurs Torres started, we won, and we didn’t concede.

Mings started at Bournemouth , when he went off and Torres entered the fray the wheels came off at the back only Cash and Martinez making world class saves / clearances saved us .

Nothing to do with being 10 men during that period at all, no sirree. The 10 mins between Mings going off and the red card, they created fuck-all like they did the rest of the match.

That header Evanilson missed when Torres was ball watching. Was that before the red card? I'm fairly sure it was but happy to be corrected. I just remember thinking at the time, Mings didn't give him a kick before then.

It was after the same as every other chance they had in the closing moments. Although as Konsa was closely marking Evanilson when Torres glanced around and then wasn't when the ball came in, was it all on Torres? The same with the back post ball that Cash stopped from being an easy goal where the player ran from Digne. Again they might have been stopped with Mings being on the pitch and both the other defenders might have done better jobs with Mings on the pitch, but both also had other defenders at fault as much as Torres.

Not that it matters but in that situation Konsa passed him off to Torres. It's a bog standard run from our right to left by Evanilson. If Konsa goes with him and leaves his station, then Cash has possibly a 2 on 1 at back post. No that was totally on Torres, he had no idea where Evanilson was. Ball at end, from memory he was completely at sea too. Digne should do better too but thats Mings bread and butter, he puts that ball out for a throw or corner. That ball simply can't come back across our goal like it did requiring a bit of a miracle from Cash to keep it out.

Ramsey would have taken pelters if we didn't hold on obviously that night but so would have Emery for the sub. I get the sense PL teams are openly targeting Torres lack of speed/strength in a way they just don't with Mings, or not since Zaha left the division!

Of course it's not all on Torres. Konsa shouldn't need a minder at this stage of his career but he does. Martinez is better defensively when Mings is there too, it's another physical presence in the air.

[VillaTim]

another example is the last seconds cross at C115y where Torres is caught ball watching and lets the ball run across the goal to the far post .

[PaulWinch again]

Apologies on not starting at Bournemouth, me misremembering, played a significant period of time and we didn’t concede. I’m not convinced it was his error for the Evanilson chance though, that looked like Konsa’s man. In any case, if we’re starting on errors that didn’t lead to goals lots of players have those (Ty with Archer against Southampton for instance)

And the point on stats is they clearly have value, but it’s dangerous to draw absolute conclusions from them on one player vs another. There are numerous other variables including make up of the side that influence outcomes.

And it might be inconvenient to the anti-Torres view, but he played pretty much an entire season where we finished 4th. That’s too long a period to draw a conclusion that he’s hopeless or can’t perform at a high level. He also played nearly all of our best results in the Champions League.

[pauliewalnuts]

Apologies on not starting at Bournemouth, me misremembering, played a significant period of time and we didn’t concede. I’m not convinced it was his error for the Evanilson chance though, that looked like Konsa’s man. In any case, if we’re starting on errors that didn’t lead to goals lots of players have those (Ty with Archer against Southampton for instance)

And the point on stats is they clearly have value, but it’s dangerous to draw absolute conclusions from them on one player vs another. There are numerous other variables including make up of the side that influence outcomes.

And it might be inconvenient to the anti-Torres view, but he played pretty much an entire season where we finished 4th. That’s too long a period to draw a conclusion that he’s hopeless or can’t perform at a high level. He also played nearly all of our best results in the Champions League.

I have always largely agreed with your opinion on Torres, but I have to be honest, I am starting to worry if the defensive side of things, where he fails, is ever going to get better.

It's not because he's too weak for the league because his weaknesses aren't really about being bullied or intimidated or anything, it's just the basic errors that are starting to worry me.

[Percy McCarthy]

I think there’s some confirmation bias here - I agree Mings should have started against Palace, due to their specific threat. But against Man Utd, a. to pin it on Torres is crazy and b. we should have been looking to dominate on the ball. Handily it seems to be forgotten that in other crucial games - Fulham, Bournemouth, Spurs Torres started, we won, and we didn’t concede.

Fulham and Spurs could have been found guilty of the non trying rule in fairness. Diego Carlos would have been ok against those.

Just when I thought the penny had dropped with you about the main purpose of a defence being to concede fewer goals, you forgot it again.

Ah well, memory fades in and out  I suppose, but if I couldn’t remember our most impressive defensive displays over the last two seasons I’d be worried. Especially as they are all on record.

[PaulWinch again]

Apologies on not starting at Bournemouth, me misremembering, played a significant period of time and we didn’t concede. I’m not convinced it was his error for the Evanilson chance though, that looked like Konsa’s man. In any case, if we’re starting on errors that didn’t lead to goals lots of players have those (Ty with Archer against Southampton for instance)

And the point on stats is they clearly have value, but it’s dangerous to draw absolute conclusions from them on one player vs another. There are numerous other variables including make up of the side that influence outcomes.

And it might be inconvenient to the anti-Torres view, but he played pretty much an entire season where we finished 4th. That’s too long a period to draw a conclusion that he’s hopeless or can’t perform at a high level. He also played nearly all of our best results in the Champions League.

I have always largely agreed with your opinion on Torres, but I have to be honest, I am starting to worry if the defensive side of things, where he fails, is ever going to get better.

It's not because he's too weak for the league because his weaknesses aren't really about being bullied or intimidated or anything, it's just the basic errors that are starting to worry me.

Right, and I don’t disagree with that in that I don’t think his form has been good. That’s also why I’m not against Ty starting at all. My issue is more the prevailing narrative that Torres is useless and isn’t a good player. There’s plenty to show he is, but that his form this season hasn’t been what it needs to be.

[PeterWithe]

It's not because he's too weak for the league because his weaknesses aren't really about being bullied or intimidated or anything, it's just the basic errors that are starting to worry me.

Not sure I agree with that, I'd say his lack of physicality is his biggest weakness, he's never going to be able to get quicker, but he can put on mass which would go some way to fixing the biggest issue. If he feels stronger, then maybe he plays stronger?

[AV82EC]

It's not because he's too weak for the league because his weaknesses aren't really about being bullied or intimidated or anything, it's just the basic errors that are starting to worry me.

Not sure I agree with that, I'd say his lack of physicality is his biggest weakness, he's never going to be able to get quicker, but he can put on mass which would go some way to fixing the biggest issue. If he feels stronger, then maybe he plays stronger?

And I definitely don't agree with this. Its a matter of public record that he put on 10kg during his first season in England.

I do agree that his form since returning from injury has been less than good and some more rotation with Tyrone would have helped.