Gerrard In or Out?

[ROBBO]

That's the truth of it,we have all over estimated the quality of the squad. I look at how many of our players would make it into any of the top six sides, I can think of one, and he's our future.

[chrisw1]

When you have a team made up mainly of good Championship players and average Premier league players, the highest we can reasonably expect to finish is 11th

If we are to improve in the summer we need at least 4 top class players who will go straight into the side, otherwise I can only see us finishing mid table or below again next season.

I don't by this.  Compare our squad to Newcastle, Brighton, Palace, Southampton, Wolves, Brenford and it compares pretty favourably - even Leicester don't look much stronger man for man.  Chances are we're going to finish below most, if not all of them.

[SoccerHQ]

That's the truth of it,we have all over estimated the quality of the squad. I look at how many of our players would make it into any of the top six sides, I can think of one, and he's our future.

Our defensive players would have a shout given we've conceded 5 fewer goals than Man. United and only two more than West Ham so despite no DM worthy of the name perhaps as a unit they're not as bad as made out.

[SoccerHQ]

However we finish, our points total will likely be a fair bit down on last season. Is that another stick to beat the team with or, ultimately, because each season's league table is relative to all the teams in that given year only; should it matter whether 55 points gets you 11th (like us last season - only 5 points less than our first 6th-placed position under MON when we scored 71 league goals in 07/08!), or if 9th place only requires 48 points (us in 2010/11, Houllier/Gary Mac's first spell)?

You could argue that the latter was a pointer towards a team closer to the bottom than the top. But yeah...it's funny how a points target (like the fabled 40, to be sure of non-relegation) is sometimes well off what's required position-wise.

We were massively unlucky to finish as low as we did last season.

Look at the table now...Man. United with 54 points and 4 games left and given they've basically given up they could easily finish 6th with barely more points than we did last season.

West Ham on 52 points and they still have to play Arsenal at home with no CBs and Man. City at home.

Don't think Wolves will even reach 55 points given they've still got Chelsea, Man. City and Liverpool all to play in their last five.

Two of those will be finishing in european places this season.

Last season pretty much inflated everyone's points totals with BCD which meant there was a higher number of away wins than average (although pretty sure we've won a similar amount away to last season so perhaps not much difference for us).

My disappointment is after winning at Leeds I wanted a top 10 finish and 50 points so we're going to finish well short of that, 45 points looks optimistic at this point.

[SoccerHQ]

If it's all about changing half the team, then that would suggest our model is fucked.

Yeah it shouldn't be.

My main issue is what happens post Gerrard. I guess the board and certainly Purslow won't be thinking that but more managers out there play Dean Smith's style than Gerrard's formation these days.

So we spent all this money in the summer, we have a very similar season next year not really challenging for europe and then what happens? Gerrard leaves and we have to spend money going back to 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 (although surely some of the players signed this summer could play effectively in that formation).

Feels like we're going to muddle through the next 12 months unnecessarily.

[chrisw1]

That's the truth of it,we have all over estimated the quality of the squad. I look at how many of our players would make it into any of the top six sides, I can think of one, and he's our future.

Coutinho, obviously.  Martinez is world class.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Watkins at Arsenal.  Digne is a French international who would improve a lot of teams when fit.  I could see Konsa and Buendia at Arsenal or West Ham.  Lots of clubs seem to like McGinn - he'd improve Man Utd for a start.  We haven't seem the best of Bailey yet but he wouldn't be the first Bundesliga player who took a while to settle in.  You've mentioned Ramsey.

Man for man this isn't the piss poor squad you're making it out to be.

Now, name the players you would want from Newcastle, Brighton, Palace, Southampton, Wolves, Brenford and Leicester, there's generally one ot two at most.

[SoccerHQ]

Wolves have better midfielders than we do. Their form and creativity has completely nosedived since Ruben Neves got injured, he'd walk into our team no problem. Moutinho aswell even in his mid 30s.

Can't say I'd want any of their attackers with Jimenez looking done now after his bad injury but again at the back they generally know how to minimize their limitations e.g. Coady would really struggle in a back 4 and can grind results out.

There's no way we should be 12 points off them anyway so simply have to do better next season in challenging them.

[chrisw1]

Wolves have better midfielders than we do. Their form and creativity has completely nosedived since Ruben Neves got injured, he'd walk into our team no problem. Moutinho aswell even in his mid 30s.

Can't say I'd want any of their attackers with Jimenez looking done now after his bad injury but again at the back they generally know how to minimize their limitations e.g. Coady would really struggle in a back 4 and can grind results out.

There's no way we should be 12 points off them anyway so simply have to do better next season in challenging them.

Exactly.  There's one or two players we would want from their squad.  I wouldn't be surprised if they'd like 5 or 6 of ours.

[Rigadon]

I think there is evidence to suggest that Smith overachieved with the squad last year because Grealish was THAT good and THAT much of a positive impact on the other players.  When Grealish wasn't fit and then after he left our form was nowhere near as good under Dean.  We didn't sell him for £100m because he was average, or even a bit better than that - he was sensational for us.  The club bought in the 3 players to fill a gap but they haven't, it's as simple as that, they have failed to justify their places (that's being harsh on Buendia who has, in flashes, done the business). 

I think Gerrard saw the Jack-shaped hole straight away and tried to replicate that level of creativity by bringing Coutihno in - maybe he prioritised that over spending mega bucks in Jan on the fabled center midfield destroyer/s.   It might end up that we finish about the same as last year, which will justify this approach to a degree.   

For me, unless we seriously get dragged into the relegation fight by failing to beat Norwich or Chrystal Palace and losing to Burnley twice, Gerrard gets the summer to build a team in his image and the first 10 games of the new season to prove is is the person to take us back into Europe (the CL). 

[Clark W Griswold]

I think the squad is better than 37 points after 32 games. Probably add 10, and then maybe another 10 by the end at a push.

That said, if we're going to have a chance of getting into Europe next season, 4 top class players including Coutinho is needed. A DM, a centre back leaving Konsa and Mings to fight it out to partner and a top class CF leaving Watkins and Ings to fight it out to partner. Then ideally, a good covering GK and another good midfielder.

[chrisw1]

I think there is evidence to suggest that Smith overachieved with the squad last year because Grealish was THAT good and THAT much of a positive impact on the other players.  When Grealish wasn't fit and then after he left our form was nowhere near as good under Dean.  We didn't sell him for £100m because he was average, or even a bit better than that - he was sensational for us.  The club bought in the 3 players to fill a gap but they haven't, it's as simple as that, they have failed to justify their places (that's being harsh on Buendia who has, in flashes, done the business). 

I think Gerrard saw the Jack-shaped hole straight away and tried to replicate that level of creativity by bringing Coutihno in - maybe he prioritised that over spending mega bucks in Jan on the fabled center midfield destroyer/s.   It might end up that we finish about the same as last year, which will justify this approach to a degree.   

For me, unless we seriously get dragged into the relegation fight by failing to beat Norwich or Chrystal Palace and losing to Burnley twice, Gerrard gets the summer to build a team in his image and the first 10 games of the new season to prove is is the person to take us back into Europe (the CL). 

Kind of agree.  But if we're letting Gerrard spend £100m + then we need to give him more than 10 games to get it right.

[murgsy]

When you have a team made up mainly of good Championship players and average Premier league players, the highest we can reasonably expect to finish is 11th

If we are to improve in the summer we need at least 4 top class players who will go straight into the side, otherwise I can only see us finishing mid table or below again next season.

I don't by this.  Compare our squad to Newcastle, Brighton, Palace, Southampton, Wolves, Brenford and it compares pretty favourably - even Leicester don't look much stronger man for man.  Chances are we're going to finish below most, if not all of them.

Would agree with the squad strength of most of the teams mentioned. Leicester is stronger - I would have at least 4-5 players of theirs over ours. Wolves are not better player for player but far more coherent as a unit.

[Clark W Griswold]

The over riding positive impact that Grealish had on the team was that we held onto the ball better with him in the team, and specifically at the right end of the pitch. He held onto it, drew players in, occupied opponents, won free kicks and set pieces and he rarely gave a stray pass so didn't lose possession. Compare to when he wasn't in the team or to this season and you see that the ball bounces back to the opposition far more and then of course with a weak center it becomes even easier to plough through us and put more pressure on the defence. In some ways i think Coutinho is better than Grealish. He's quicker and with the right players around him i'd expect him to have more assists and goals but he doesn't retain possession as well as Grealish did. That's why it's even more important now to get that midfield solid so that we can stop the opposition and get back to keeping the ball more which should then give Coutinho the platform to do his thing. Add a top striker as well and hopefully we'll see less of the wasted chances like we saw against Tottenham for example.

[Beard82]

If we spend big in the summer, I guess there would be two points of review - the world cup break, and again at the end of the season.

I think he would have to be doing really badly to be sacked by the world cup (i.e. we're looking like we might be in a relegation battle). 

I guess a lot will depend on how comfortable the owners are with whats happening - but I think he will get the whole of next season at least

[PaulWinch again]

Didn’t Wolves take a few months to get going this season? And that was with a full preseason with their manager.

Point is it can take time for things to bed in. I don’t know whether Gerrard will succeed, but he needs some time to make a fair assessment either way.