Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 09, 2022, 07:04:48 PM
Got rid of a perfectly decent Left Back and blew £25m on an average replacement.
Continues to play two strikers that don’t work.
Makes changes too late.
Continually plays the same shit midfield despite blabbing on about making changes.
Post by: Villan82 on April 09, 2022, 07:06:26 PM
Mid-table is fine if you don't lose 17+ games a year. I am fuming.
Post by: eamonn on April 09, 2022, 07:13:24 PM
Post by: Rigadon on April 09, 2022, 07:13:26 PM
Post by: Rigadon on April 09, 2022, 07:14:44 PM
Post by: TonyD on April 09, 2022, 07:16:15 PM
It’s like a series of 321.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on April 09, 2022, 07:17:31 PM
Embarrassing.
It is a bit cringey. I categorically did not want him but I wouldn't be calling for his head this early.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 09, 2022, 07:17:41 PM
Post by: rob_bridge on April 09, 2022, 07:18:29 PM
Smith went after 5 losses on the bounce. We look every bit as bad with Gerrard.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 09, 2022, 07:19:39 PM
To my mind, deeply concerning though what we have seen thus far is, he has to get a window and a season to be judged fairly.
But it is monstrously depressing watching the same players make the same mistakes over and over.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on April 09, 2022, 07:21:21 PM
His argument is that he came in half way through the season and inherited a mess.
To my mind, deeply concerning though what we have seen thus far is, he has to get a window and a season to be judged fairly.
But it is monstrously depressing watching the same players make the same mistakes over and over.
Exactly where I'm at.
Post by: Taylor on April 09, 2022, 07:21:26 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 09, 2022, 07:22:11 PM
Post by: Villan82 on April 09, 2022, 07:22:20 PM
What the fuck went wrong? It's not like 2012-16 where we tried to do things on the cheap. I genuinely can't figure out why it has been such a let down of a season -we have been a shambles for about 2/3 of the games.17 losses is just unbelievable with 7 games left to paly.
Post by: TonyD on April 09, 2022, 07:22:46 PM
Oh for f**ks sake. Really. How many more managers will we get through?Until we find the right one.
Post by: Rudy65 on April 09, 2022, 07:24:27 PM
His argument is that he came in half way through the season and inherited a mess.
To my mind, deeply concerning though what we have seen thus far is, he has to get a window and a season to be judged fairly.
But it is monstrously depressing watching the same players make the same mistakes over and over.
Exactly where I'm at.
The players just aren’t as good as we perhaps think. Same group got Deano the sack with some inept performances. Phil isn’t signing either on our current form
Post by: Rigadon on April 09, 2022, 07:25:11 PM
Tell me what he is trying to do.
It’s like a series of 321.
He is trying to benefit from width from wing backs without losing ground in midfield by playing wingers. He is trying to craete space for our world class playmaker by playing him at the top of a midfield unit. He is trying to be aggressive and progressive from the back. But when your players make basic errors in key parts of the game you're fucked, regardless of the fucking manager. We need better players. Full stop.
Post by: Taylor on April 09, 2022, 07:26:07 PM
But if you only give each one 6 months, it could go on forever.Oh for f**ks sake. Really. How many more managers will we get through?Until we find the right one.
Post by: olaftab on April 09, 2022, 07:26:36 PM
Ignoring their lucky strike in the 3rd minute Gerrard’s set up played them off the park except for poor finishing Spurs should been buried. However once again a better coach sees through Gerrard’s tactics counteracts and it’s game over and SG did nothing about it. ATM SG is long way short of what we need.
Post by: LukeJames on April 09, 2022, 07:27:55 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 09, 2022, 07:28:17 PM
Post by: Nev on April 09, 2022, 07:29:47 PM
Post by: levico on April 09, 2022, 07:30:49 PM
Tell me what he is trying to do.
It’s like a series of 321.
More like Tipping Point
Post by: Drummond on April 09, 2022, 07:30:55 PM
Tell me what he is trying to do.
It’s like a series of 321.
He is trying to benefit from width from wing backs without losing ground in midfield by playing wingers. He is trying to craete space for our world class playmaker by playing him at the top of a midfield unit. He is trying to be aggressive and progressive from the back. But when your players make basic errors in key parts of the game you're fucked, regardless of the fucking manager. We need better players. Full stop.
Why play a system your players can't play?
Does that mean we have to spend another few hundred million?
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 09, 2022, 07:30:59 PM
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 09, 2022, 07:31:18 PM
I think it’s a bit hasty but honestly, my gut feeling is that he’s going to do fuck all here and I’ve thought that for a few months. We did have that little 3 match run but otherwise been absolutely wank since the new year.
Leave him in till the summer though at least.
Edit - well end of the season anyway
Post by: Legion on April 09, 2022, 07:32:13 PM
His argument is that he came in half way through the season and inherited a mess.
To my mind, deeply concerning though what we have seen thus far is, he has to get a window and a season to be judged fairly.
But it is monstrously depressing watching the same players make the same mistakes over and over.
This for me.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on April 09, 2022, 07:32:30 PM
Post by: LukeJames on April 09, 2022, 07:34:40 PM
Post by: Villan82 on April 09, 2022, 07:35:28 PM
Just to add, if SG does indeed end up going before the end of the calendar year 2022 then I think Mr Purslow will also have to go.
Post by: Toronto Villa on April 09, 2022, 07:36:55 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 09, 2022, 07:37:29 PM
Gerrard Out.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) !
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 09, 2022, 07:38:25 PM
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 09, 2022, 07:39:03 PM
1 point from 24 in games against the top 8.
6 goals scored with 17 conceded.
4 losses on the bounce.
If he loses vs Leicester there may well be justification in this thread given that was the losing sequence Smith had before he was sacrificed by purslow in the interests of progress.
As much as I've been unimpressed how we fare against Leicester, Burnley x2, Norwich and Palace will make my mind up one way or the other this season.
Regarding top 8 under our manager next season, at this point I just cannot see it.
Post by: wittonwarrior on April 09, 2022, 07:39:46 PM
Post by: darren woolley on April 09, 2022, 07:42:32 PM
Post by: ez on April 09, 2022, 07:43:32 PM
Post by: enigma on April 09, 2022, 07:47:03 PM
Having said that, I'd stick with him for now but he's got to shake things up. Keeps pretty much the same players and tactics every week and it just isn't working.
Post by: AlwaysVilla on April 09, 2022, 07:47:15 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 09, 2022, 07:47:40 PM
The individual errors are at a level that whoever the manager is, it’s always going to look this bad. You can have the best team talk and system in the world but when players are this poor and careless it’s not fixable. They have to go
Who?
Post by: Scovilla on April 09, 2022, 07:47:48 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 09, 2022, 07:50:13 PM
Post by: Risso on April 09, 2022, 07:50:56 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 09, 2022, 07:51:05 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 09, 2022, 07:51:50 PM
In - as a point of principle it’s ridiculous to sack a manager so soon.
Would you offer a new contract to Luiz? Not having a go but I know you're a fan of his.
Post by: rob_bridge on April 09, 2022, 07:52:38 PM
Non effective PlanA and no PlanB
Post by: Risso on April 09, 2022, 07:53:23 PM
In - as a point of principle it’s ridiculous to sack a manager so soon.
Would you offer a new contract to Luiz? Not having a go but I know you're a fan of his.
I could do with a gardener. Bit of painting and decorating.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 09, 2022, 07:54:11 PM
Failing that, would you trust him to spend the money replacing many of them (plus Luiz who certainly needs replacing)? Assuming their level of performance stays the same whoever is in charge we need to replace Luiz in the starting 11 along with 2 out of Mings, Konsa, McGinn and Ramsey (with players that can make us more solid and keep the ball better) and then 1 out of Watkins and Ings plus we need to find and alternate to Coutinho who I think is unlikely to come in. That’s potentially 5 new players for the starting 11, playing this formation. Can he be trusted to get all or most of that right?
Post by: Toronto Villa on April 09, 2022, 07:55:31 PM
The individual errors are at a level that whoever the manager is, it’s always going to look this bad. You can have the best team talk and system in the world but when players are this poor and careless it’s not fixable. They have to go
Who?
Any player that control a football. I would absolutely upgrade our forwards, McGinn, Luiz, Konsa aren’t starters. If they stay so be it but they are entirely back ups at this level. So for me, sell and bring in better.
Post by: eamonn on April 09, 2022, 07:57:43 PM
Anyway, here's what he's said post-match. Sounds quite chipper but then he is on a few mill a year...
Quote
Aston Villa manager Steven Gerrard, speaking to BBC Match of the Day: "It's tough - the scoreline is harsh on us, but it's the reality and we have to accept that. I have to accept it - I'm responsible. The story of the game certainly wasn't a 4-0 game.
"It's the first time in football I've gone off at half-time 1-0 down and been really happy and proud, we were magnificent, we didn't take our chances but at half-time I said if we can continue this I have no doubt we get back into the game. The second half it flipped, Spurs' quality players made it about our backline and they punished us really heavily.
"Analysing the first goal, a long straight ball we could've defended that better, they got a bit of luck but they're ruthless in front of goal. To be 1-0 down at half-time was against the run of play, we were outstanding and the chances we've created against a top side is enough to win two or three games.
"We asked them to maintain that at half-time and we tried, we talk about defending the area around 18-yard box and Spurs punished us heavily in that area.
"We've got time - I don't know if that's a good thing, you want the next game quickly after a defeat like that which stings but I've got to pick the players up and be ready for the next game. I want us to remember that first half, we have a lot to learn and defensively in the second half we have even more to learn."
Post by: rob_bridge on April 09, 2022, 07:58:15 PM
I'd probably be a bit more understanding of what he's 'trying' to do if he didnt bring Ashley Young on every week. He's Sherwood Mark II.
He is.
With Better Players
Post by: Ads on April 09, 2022, 08:00:21 PM
Post by: SamTheMouse on April 09, 2022, 08:01:03 PM
Fuck me, we ain't Watford.
Post by: TonyD on April 09, 2022, 08:01:48 PM
Seriously can’t see what he is trying to do.
Unless the owners are going to dig dip and buy 4/5 world class players c£350m to suit his supposed plan of playing.
So they too can underperform.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 09, 2022, 08:07:42 PM
Post by: gpbarr on April 09, 2022, 08:11:32 PM
It was an even poorer decision to then go appoint Gerrard who had no proven managerial pedigree outside a piss poor Scottish league - reeked of Purslow making the decision prior any interviews of proper assessment.
If our owners have the balls, they’ll fire Purslow (root cause of the problem), then fire Gerrard (he isn’t the man to take us where we need to go - he’s being outcoached week after week), and then sell the likes of Mings, Ings, Konza, Luiz, McGinn, Traore. They have had enough chances - time to rip plaster off.
This season has been a debacle and no one at the club (administrators or players) should feel they have performed.
We fans deserve so much better. They should all hang their heads in shame.
Post by: Steve67 on April 09, 2022, 08:12:19 PM
Post by: Taylor on April 09, 2022, 08:12:56 PM
Out. Couldn't run a bath.How many shite cliches could you get in one post? Well done.
Non effective PlanA and no PlanB
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 09, 2022, 08:21:30 PM
Out. Couldn't run a bath.How many shite cliches could you get in one post? Well done.
Non effective PlanA and no PlanB
In over his head. There’s a big leak in the defence. He needs to shore it up? Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 09, 2022, 08:22:52 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 09, 2022, 08:23:22 PM
It was a poor decision to sack Smith after only 10 games - reeked of panic.not sure responsible owners sack the chief, the manager and most of the players at the same time.....
It was an even poorer decision to then go appoint Gerrard who had no proven managerial pedigree outside a piss poor Scottish league - reeked of Purslow making the decision prior any interviews of proper assessment.
If our owners have the balls, they’ll fire Purslow (root cause of the problem), then fire Gerrard (he isn’t the man to take us where we need to go - he’s being outcoached week after week), and then sell the likes of Mings, Ings, Konza, Luiz, McGinn, Traore. They have had enough chances - time to rip plaster off.
This season has been a debacle and no one at the club (administrators or players) should feel they have performed.
We fans deserve so much better. They should all hang their heads in shame.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 09, 2022, 08:23:25 PM
Out. Couldn't run a bath.How many shite cliches could you get in one post? Well done.
Non effective PlanA and no PlanB
Definitely a rob_bridge too far.
Post by: rob_bridge on April 09, 2022, 08:31:36 PM
Out. Couldn't run a bath.How many shite cliches could you get in one post? Well done.
Non effective PlanA and no PlanB
Not sure any of them are shite.
I can do more if you want.
Or you can tell me how we have progressed with an increased wage bill and 2 'World Class' players in Gerrards time here.
Go on tell me..
Post by: Uknowthescore on April 09, 2022, 08:32:36 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 09, 2022, 08:36:43 PM
In - as a point of principle it’s ridiculous to sack a manager so soon.
Would you offer a new contract to Luiz? Not having a go but I know you're a fan of his.
Tricky one - he’s in a ropey patch clearly and I think he’s playing the wrong role. If we’re going to continue down that path I’d probably sell him.
Post by: rob_bridge on April 09, 2022, 08:37:04 PM
Out. Couldn't run a bath.How many shite cliches could you get in one post? Well done.
Non effective PlanA and no PlanB
Definitely a rob_bridge too far.
Ha ha. Very good. Not much to smile about today
Post by: ez on April 09, 2022, 08:37:33 PM
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 09, 2022, 08:38:58 PM
Way too early to think about changing managers.
Ask me this time next year.
Post by: canuckvillan on April 09, 2022, 08:41:09 PM
Post by: Ads on April 09, 2022, 08:42:26 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 09, 2022, 08:42:46 PM
5 months and people are turning.I'm not surprised
Post by: Pete3206 on April 09, 2022, 08:44:02 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 09, 2022, 08:51:05 PM
5 months and people are turning.
Yep it’s stupid. Gerrard needs to stop trusting players who are letting him down, and he needs to learn to react. But sacking him at this stage is nonsense.
Post by: Damo70 on April 09, 2022, 08:53:07 PM
from their time together at Liverpool. This might test Purslow's relationship with the owners.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 09, 2022, 08:55:37 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 09, 2022, 08:55:46 PM
We actually had a good Jan window and yet we've lost 6 of our last 9 so that shows there are extreme limitations to his system/style of play.
I'm not convinced a good DM on his own solves everything. We were actually really good in midfield today first half but just look at the difference in finishing from the four strikers on the pitch. And baring a miracle we aren't signing anyone on Son's level for final third so just have to hope Archer gets a proper chance and becomes the new Kane I guess.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 09, 2022, 08:57:24 PM
But if you only give each one 6 months, it could go on forever.Oh for f**ks sake. Really. How many more managers will we get through?Until we find the right one.
Yep. This thread is embarrassing. I wasn’t particularly over excited when he got the job and at least part of this was about loving Smith, but its been 5 months ffs!!
He needs the pre season and the whole of next season.
Post by: Three Spires Villa on April 09, 2022, 08:58:17 PM
But if you only give each one 6 months, it could go on forever.Oh for f**ks sake. Really. How many more managers will we get through?
Absolutely this, come on people
Until we find the right one.
Yep. This thread is embarrassing. I wasn’t particularly over excited when he got the job and at least part of this was about loving Smith, but its been 5 months ffs!!
He needs the pre season and the whole of next season.
Post by: curiousorange on April 09, 2022, 09:03:10 PM
If I'd have replied to this thread after the fourth goal, I'd have pinned him without a seconds thought.
Post by: LukeJames on April 09, 2022, 09:03:49 PM
Well last summer's transfer window has become a disaster. Lost our best player for ages and bought 4 players who have brought next to nothing to the club.
The whole thing was a fucking farce. The Grealish training video. Signing a star Bundesliga £30m winger whos step dad then did a Texas Cainsaw Massacre reveal, then getting in a manager that doesn't use wingers. Signing a superb forward without a clue how to use him, sneaking him into VP with a bag over his head and telling his family to shut up so we can dampen the blow of losing our best player. Signing a very good play maker that takes time to settle, when he does finally settle we immediately bench him and give him 10 minute cameos here and there. And dont get me started on Ashley fucking Young who comes on each week to either argue with the opposition or get a yellow card and probably push our star youngster to Dortmund. Purslow and Lange should be on thin fucking ice my pedigree chums.
Post by: Beard82 on April 09, 2022, 09:05:06 PM
I think we would be roughly here with Smith
Smith improved players and himself - but struggled to learn quite quickly enough. It was the right thing for him to go - But currently it could easily be argued that he was harshly treated
Players seem worse under SG
Think his tactics just don’t work and he has had more fit players then Smith and plus had brought in 2 quality players.
Having said all that - there is a decent chance he could bring some decent players in the summer.
Personally I am still In unless a really good, proven manager becomes available. If that happens - I would pack his bags for him
He will get more time - because otherwise I think CP role is close to untenable.
I guess a lot depends on what the owners are thinking. I wouldn’t be shocked if they take decisive action if they think we’re on the wrong path.
The biggest thing SG can do is win 3 or 4 games out of the remaining ones - that’s achievable. If we finish 15th that is a really bad look against the narrative of sacking Smith
Post by: nick harper on April 09, 2022, 09:06:03 PM
Still in but at the same time I just don't believe we'll sign the players we need in the summer to have a real proper go.
We actually had a good Jan window and yet we've lost 6 of our last 9 so that shows there are extreme limitations to his system/style of play.
I'm not convinced a good DM on his own solves everything. We were actually really good in midfield today first half but just look at the difference in finishing from the four strikers on the pitch. And baring a miracle we aren't signing anyone on Son's level for final third so just have to hope Archer gets a proper chance and becomes the new Kane I guess.
They defended much better than we did. Mings is just not good enough and Konsa should not have been an automatic pick after his suspension. We are just a poor side out of possession better sides keep punishing us.
The one certainty next game is that Nakamba will be back.
Post by: curiousorange on April 09, 2022, 09:10:00 PM
Post by: Villan82 on April 09, 2022, 09:12:08 PM
I can't imagine NSWE are impressed with how things have gone since Christmas 2020. I am just so down tonight.
Post by: Dave P on April 09, 2022, 09:15:24 PM
Post by: Dave P on April 09, 2022, 09:17:00 PM
Post by: algy on April 09, 2022, 09:18:18 PM
That said, I'm still "Gerrard in", but not massively impressed so far (Although the January transfer window was excellent).
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 09, 2022, 09:18:55 PM
We've lost more than half our games this season. What happens if the wins dry up next season?
I can't imagine NSWE are impressed with how things have gone since Christmas 2020. I am just so down tonight.
It’s not good, but it doesn’t mean you sack the manager before he’s had a reasonable amount of time. He needs to shape the squad more and have a pre-season.
Post by: Villan82 on April 09, 2022, 09:19:10 PM
Was way too early for this thread. I thought three years in the championship would have realigned peoples expectations but obviously not. We seem to be back to being every inch the spoilt brats rival fans accuse us of being.
I am delighted to be in the premier league and to be in better shape overall than we have been in a long-time. Is it too much for me to ask that we set up to be hard to beat because losing 21 games, 15 and now (so far, 17) games in a 38 game season isn't very nice.
Post by: Villan82 on April 09, 2022, 09:20:23 PM
We've lost more than half our games this season. What happens if the wins dry up next season?
I can't imagine NSWE are impressed with how things have gone since Christmas 2020. I am just so down tonight.
It’s not good, but it doesn’t mean you sack the manager before he’s had a reasonable amount of time. He needs to shape the squad more and have a pre-season.
For clarity, I am 'in'. He steadied us after a rotten start. I am just disappointed he hasn't made us more solid as a team.
Post by: Three Spires Villa on April 09, 2022, 09:31:09 PM
I never wanted him, I think he’s in over his head.
I think we would be roughly here with Smith
Smith improved players and himself - but struggled to learn quite quickly enough. It was the right thing for him to go - But currently it could easily be argued that he was harshly treated
Players seem worse under SG
Think his tactics just don’t work and he has had more fit players then Smith and plus had brought in 2 quality players.
Having said all that - there is a decent chance he could bring some decent players in the summer.
Personally I am still In unless a really good, proven manager becomes available. If that happens - I would pack his bags for him
He will get more time - because otherwise I think CP role is close to untenable.
I guess a lot depends on what the owners are thinking. I wouldn’t be shocked if they take decisive action if they think we’re on the wrong path.
The biggest thing SG can do is win 3 or 4 games out of the remaining ones - that’s achievable. If we finish 15th that is a really bad look against the narrative of sacking Smith
Personally I don’t, I think we would be right in a relegation fight. We do need to remember Deans end to last season and his start to this.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 09, 2022, 09:39:17 PM
If we carry on being shite, I'd rather spend £50m giving Poch a 5 year contract than let Gerrard spend £100m to rip up the squad.
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
Post by: LukeJames on April 09, 2022, 09:46:34 PM
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
Im pretty sure this is what will happen.
Post by: Beard82 on April 09, 2022, 09:47:16 PM
Yeah thats a fair comment - i generally dont think we would be, I think he would have turned it round but clearly its speculation.I never wanted him, I think he’s in over his head.
I think we would be roughly here with Smith
Smith improved players and himself - but struggled to learn quite quickly enough. It was the right thing for him to go - But currently it could easily be argued that he was harshly treated
Players seem worse under SG
Think his tactics just don’t work and he has had more fit players then Smith and plus had brought in 2 quality players.
Having said all that - there is a decent chance he could bring some decent players in the summer.
Personally I am still In unless a really good, proven manager becomes available. If that happens - I would pack his bags for him
He will get more time - because otherwise I think CP role is close to untenable.
I guess a lot depends on what the owners are thinking. I wouldn’t be shocked if they take decisive action if they think we’re on the wrong path.
The biggest thing SG can do is win 3 or 4 games out of the remaining ones - that’s achievable. If we finish 15th that is a really bad look against the narrative of sacking Smith
Personally I don’t, I think we would be right in a relegation fight. We do need to remember Deans end to last season and his start to this.
I think we've won 4 in the last 14 games - which is pretty much relegation form.
Post by: colin69 on April 09, 2022, 09:48:41 PM
Post by: curiousorange on April 09, 2022, 09:49:44 PM
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
Im pretty sure this is what will happen.
Even though he's a lot younger, ever since we started being repeatedly linked to Phillips for £60 million, I've had a sinking feeling about Villa's summer.
Post by: Chris Harte on April 09, 2022, 09:52:26 PM
This.Embarrassing.
It is a bit cringey. I categorically did not want him but I wouldn't be calling for his head this early.
If our first half dominance had translated into goals this thread would likely not exist. I'm aware that there's a bit of "If me nan had bollocks she'd have been me grandad" about this but surely now he's in the role we have to give him a proper opportunity. The team performing for only 45 minutes per game was an issue under Dean Smith as well so it's not on Gerrard's head. That said I doubt any team could have kept up the pace of that first half today.
Post by: BC Villain on April 09, 2022, 10:05:09 PM
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
Im pretty sure this is what will happen.
The comments he's made in interviews indicate that's what he plans to do. In other words he's all but saying he's a cheque book manager.
Newcastle took FIFTEEN games to win a match this season and Leeds have shipped a huge amount of goals all season. Yet at the moment you'd back both of them to finish above us. That is damning.
Post by: Three Spires Villa on April 09, 2022, 10:20:03 PM
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
Im pretty sure this is what will happen.
The comments he's made in interviews indicate that's what he plans to do. In other words he's all but saying he's a cheque book manager.
Newcastle took FIFTEEN games to win a match this season and Leeds have shipped a huge amount of goals all season. Yet at the moment you'd back both of them to finish above us. That is damning.
We will finish above Leeds, but I understand your point
Post by: boozey182 on April 10, 2022, 01:39:23 AM
He's shown very little so far, but he talks a good game. A few wins between now and the end of the season and things look a bit better. If that doesn't happen though, we're allowed to question whether we're sensible to trust him with the company cheque book.
Post by: Villan82 on April 10, 2022, 06:22:30 AM
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
Im pretty sure this is what will happen.
The comments he's made in interviews indicate that's what he plans to do. In other words he's all but saying he's a cheque book manager.
Newcastle took FIFTEEN games to win a match this season and Leeds have shipped a huge amount of goals all season. Yet at the moment you'd back both of them to finish above us. That is damning.
Unlike the 2019-2022 incarnation of Aston Villa, Newcastle have this knack of coming away with a point when they don't get the win. Our biggest failing since coming back has been the inability to dig in and get away with a point when it just isn't our day. it has been the thing holding us back.
Post by: Lucky Eddie on April 10, 2022, 06:58:00 AM
I didn't want him and don't think he'll be successful here, but given that he is here I'd give it until the summer to see how we finish this season.
If we carry on being shite, I'd rather spend £50m giving Poch a 5 year contract than let Gerrard spend £100m to rip up the squad.
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
A 'proper manager' like O'Neil?
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 10, 2022, 07:33:16 AM
We are poor in front of goal and easy to score against.
I am prepared to give him some slack because he has inherited the same players that were underperforming for Smith but ultimately it is his job to get the most out of them. I am not sure what he can do when the 2 strikers don’t put the ball away.
The real worry is that at some point our owners will question whether or not it is actually possible to meet their ambitions with Aston Villa.
At the moment I am not sure it is because the gap between where we are and where we want to be looks insurmountable.
Post by: Drummond on April 10, 2022, 07:47:12 AM
He's shown very little so far, but he talks a good game.
I reckon any of us can do that.
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 10, 2022, 07:59:37 AM
He's shown very little so far, but he talks a good game.
I reckon any of us can do that.
Besides he's not auditioning for a spot on motd.
He's manager of AVFC and needs to demonstrate capability of this through results on the pitch.
Let him get his Sunday football buzz out of the way. Let next season's captainsy take care of itself when the time comes.
From Monday the geezer needs to start focusing on how to seriously take points off Leicester.
Post by: Rigadon on April 10, 2022, 08:44:04 AM
I think it’s too early but there are some very worrying trends appearing.
We are poor in front of goal and easy to score against.
I am prepared to give him some slack because he has inherited the same players that were underperforming for Smith but ultimately it is his job to get the most out of them. I am not sure what he can do when the 2 strikers don’t put the ball away.
The real worry is that at some point our owners will question whether or not it is actually possible to meet their ambitions with Aston Villa.
At the moment I am not sure it is because the gap between where we are and where we want to be looks insurmountable.
We were a proper centre half and a proper centre forward away from battering Spurs yesterday, who are challenging for top 4. I honestly think people will look back on this thread and cringe a bit next season - and I say that as a poster who has done that more than once so it's not a pop.
The goal that Son scored in the first few minutes, it was a half chance that came from a really really lucky rebound from a Kane shot that was hitting the corner flag. Watkins, Ings? Nah, it would've gone wide, hit the bar or a defender. I can't remember who said it yesterday bu the spine of th team needs replacing, and if players keep on making basic errors there is nothing any manager can do about it.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 10, 2022, 09:12:53 AM
I didn't want him and don't think he'll be successful here, but given that he is here I'd give it until the summer to see how we finish this season.
If we carry on being shite, I'd rather spend £50m giving Poch a 5 year contract than let Gerrard spend £100m to rip up the squad.
I hope we don't spend a load of money on 29-30 year old players on big contracts, Martin O'Neil style, and in time look back and wonder what might have been if we'd given that money to a proper manager.
A 'proper manager' like O'Neil?
Well no, clearly not, because he spunked away everything on older players on big contracts who we couldn't shift, which set up back miles. Then flounced off when he had to work with what he had. No squad rotation, no plan B.
Post by: algy on April 10, 2022, 09:15:44 AM
In which case, there's not been a massive improvement on the pitch with Gerrard compared to Smith. Transfer window, the good is Coutinho, really, isn't it? Cos Dean Smith could've attracted Chambers, Olsen, and quite possibly Digne.
Identifying weaknesses - he's looked at that squad and said the things we really need is (effective) replacements for Emi2, Targett, Tuanzebe, and Steer.
Of those, Tuanzebe is the only one I'm totally sold on, and that's because he left.
Will give him time, could have a very different view at the end of the season, but I'd hope the summer business is done with one eye on us potentially having a different manager in 14 months time.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 10, 2022, 09:17:55 AM
I think it’s too early but there are some very worrying trends appearing.
We are poor in front of goal and easy to score against.
I am prepared to give him some slack because he has inherited the same players that were underperforming for Smith but ultimately it is his job to get the most out of them. I am not sure what he can do when the 2 strikers don’t put the ball away.
The real worry is that at some point our owners will question whether or not it is actually possible to meet their ambitions with Aston Villa.
At the moment I am not sure it is because the gap between where we are and where we want to be looks insurmountable.
We were a proper centre half and a proper centre forward away from battering Spurs yesterday, who are challenging for top 4. I honestly think people will look back on this thread and cringe a bit next season - and I say that as a poster who has done that more than once so it's not a pop.
The goal that Son scored in the first few minutes, it was a half chance that came from a really really lucky rebound from a Kane shot that was hitting the corner flag. Watkins, Ings? Nah, it would've gone wide, hit the bar or a defender. I can't remember who said it yesterday bu the spine of th team needs replacing, and if players keep on making basic errors there is nothing any manager can do about it.
First half we were really good as pressing them when they tried to play out from the back, although when they did manage to get through the press they looked a bit dangerous on the break with the width they had, and we were very narrow.
Second half when they changed it and went long, we didn't change anything ourselves to counter it and looked shite. Late ineffective subs again.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 10, 2022, 09:33:51 AM
When we went in at half time not having taken any of the myriad chances we had in the previous 40 minutes did anyone NOT think that:
a. Conte would change their shape to nullify us.
b. It would work.
c. Gerrard would not make any changes for us until it was too late.
Totally and utterly predictable.
I’ll give him a chance but I am more and more worried we’ve got ourselves another ‘blunt instrument’ manager who just doesn’t seem to ‘do’ tactics beyond choosing some and sticking with them regardless of what he sees on the pitch.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 10, 2022, 09:37:28 AM
Post by: Drummond on April 10, 2022, 09:39:47 AM
Post by: wittonwarrior on April 10, 2022, 09:51:08 AM
Gerrard was obviously brought in to bring high profile players in - needs a transfer window to show whether this can work or not. Be careful what you wish for, we don't want to turn into another Watford or Manure with rotation of managers every season
Post by: john2710 on April 10, 2022, 09:51:59 AM
We need 3 experienced aggressive players right down the middle of the team.
Gerrard will cast off those who can’t do the job. Judge him in 12 months time.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 10, 2022, 09:53:28 AM
Here’s the worrying thing.
When we went in at half time not having taken any of the myriad chances we had in the previous 40 minutes did anyone NOT think that:
a. Conte would change their shape to nullify us.
b. It would work.
c. Gerrard would not make any changes for us until it was too late.
Totally and utterly predictable.
I’ll give him a chance but I am more and more worried we’ve got ourselves another ‘blunt instrument’ manager who just doesn’t seem to ‘do’ tactics beyond choosing some and sticking with them regardless of what he sees on the pitch.
Your abc is exactly what I was saying at half time.
He talks a good game but he doesn’t seem able to think on his feet. You get the impression that his half time team talk yesterday was the equivalent of “brilliant lads, more of the same” instead of expecting that they would improve and to be ready for it.
He should be allowed the summer to bring in his own players to suit how he wants us to play but I think that unless there is a clear improvement fairly quickly he’ll be gone by Christmas.
My other concern is that we risk wasting the potential of our youngsters as I get the impression of a man who is more interested in experience. I hope I’m wrong.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 10, 2022, 10:20:12 AM
As much as I wanted Deano to stay, his team was heading for relegation.
This is still much the same team and I'm not (yet) concerned about relegation.
Although we do need a couple of wins soon.
Post by: LukeJames on April 10, 2022, 10:28:29 AM
Edit. Probably would be more appropriate in the Lange thread.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 10, 2022, 10:33:34 AM
I thought the whole reason we had the DOF set up behind the seens was so that we decide on what kind of club we want to be and recruit players and staff around that basis. The fact it now looks like we have signed a lot of players with no real thought process behind it and then appointed a manager that needs a massive squad reset is a major fuck up by Pursow and Lange.
And this is what I don't understand and will keep not understanding for a long time to come. I thought the days of annual personnel change were over; now it seems that philosophies are temporary as well.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 10, 2022, 10:42:28 AM
I think it’s too early but there are some very worrying trends appearing.
We are poor in front of goal and easy to score against.
I am prepared to give him some slack because he has inherited the same players that were underperforming for Smith but ultimately it is his job to get the most out of them. I am not sure what he can do when the 2 strikers don’t put the ball away.
The real worry is that at some point our owners will question whether or not it is actually possible to meet their ambitions with Aston Villa.
At the moment I am not sure it is because the gap between where we are and where we want to be looks insurmountable.
We were a proper centre half and a proper centre forward away from battering Spurs yesterday, who are challenging for top 4. I honestly think people will look back on this thread and cringe a bit next season - and I say that as a poster who has done that more than once so it's not a pop.
The goal that Son scored in the first few minutes, it was a half chance that came from a really really lucky rebound from a Kane shot that was hitting the corner flag. Watkins, Ings? Nah, it would've gone wide, hit the bar or a defender. I can't remember who said it yesterday bu the spine of th team needs replacing, and if players keep on making basic errors there is nothing any manager can do about it.
Plus a proper defensive mid and we relied a lot on Coutinho for the good stuff in the first half and he’s not technically our player. So that’s an entire new spine. That’s not Gerrards fault of course but whether you (well, the owners ultimately) think he’s capable of buying the right players, getting the best out of them and getting the best out of the rest of the team around them from the players we already have to achieve a Europe qualification season next season, is the big question.
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 10:45:31 AM
Yeah I think this is the biggest concern for me - it felt like a sustainable plan, and had been paying dividends. Now it looks like we’re going in a totally different direction and our setup seems to be wasted - recent signings discarded, promising youth talents not given opportunities.I thought the whole reason we had the DOF set up behind the seens was so that we decide on what kind of club we want to be and recruit players and staff around that basis. The fact it now looks like we have signed a lot of players with no real thought process behind it and then appointed a manager that needs a massive squad reset is a major fuck up by Pursow and Lange.
And this is what I don't understand and will keep not understanding for a long time to come. I thought the days of annual personnel change were over; now it seems that philosophies are temporary as well.
- I don’t see Gerrard as the man to change philosophy for
Post by: TonyD on April 10, 2022, 10:48:19 AM
That means relegation.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 10:48:54 AM
Next season we won’t have the 12 points from 4 wins from the new manager bounce.
That means relegation.
Jesus Christ, have you heard yourself?
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 10, 2022, 10:50:08 AM
Post by: Drummond on April 10, 2022, 10:52:12 AM
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 10:52:42 AM
My concern is that everything has been ditched just so that Purslow could bring in the man he's always wanted.Yes
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 10:57:31 AM
Post by: Villan82 on April 10, 2022, 11:01:06 AM
Post by: Ian. on April 10, 2022, 11:07:31 AM
I thought the whole reason we had the DOF set up behind the seens was so that we decide on what kind of club we want to be and recruit players and staff around that basis. The fact it now looks like we have signed a lot of players with no real thought process behind it and then appointed a manager that needs a massive squad reset is a major fuck up by Pursow and Lange.
And this is what I don't understand and will keep not understanding for a long time to come. I thought the days of annual personnel change were over; now it seems that philosophies are temporary as well.
It seems the glamour of Gerrard was too much for Purslow and the plan was shelved or spun to the owners that the plan will fit in with the new recruitment.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 10, 2022, 11:08:24 AM
We had a system based on wing play and now we are very narrow leaving multi-millions worth of talent (Traore, Bailey) completely surplus to requirements. That is a definite shift and a big one.
Yep, and requiring the fullbacks to provide the width leaving us constantly exposed in the space they vacate.
Post by: Mister E on April 10, 2022, 11:09:53 AM
This is one of the more bizarre seasons I can remember.We had a clusterfuck of a summer ...
What the fuck went wrong?
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 11:11:00 AM
We all want villa to be successful - whether we see it as ditching a manager, undecided, or still backing them.
I don’t think any view on this is embarrassing on either side - boring maybe because we all have our views and they don’t often change.
We have seen with Arsenal - how the stick route works, we have seen with Spurs how the twist route works.
For me, I think the owners know how to achieve things with sports team that seem impossible.
Currently there the ones I am putting my faith in.
A lot of the impatientness and frustration comes from our continued stated aims - we told we are trying to compete with the top 8 clubs - and that’s what we are judging it against. We’re told we’re expecting year on year improvement.
Maybe we would have been better to be more coy about it - most of the media see us a club like Brighton or Southampton whose first aim is to stay away from regulation and get to 40 points and anything else is a bonus. Maybe that’s what we should do
Our players need an upgrade - we all agree that - We’ll see what the summer brings - and how much that is a departure from what we have done before.
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 11:12:52 AM
There also appears to have been a change in transfer strategy - with us signing players at peak values that we won’t recoup - like Digne and hopefully PhilWe had a system based on wing play and now we are very narrow leaving multi-millions worth of talent (Traore, Bailey) completely surplus to requirements. That is a definite shift and a big one.
Yep, and requiring the fullbacks to provide the width leaving us constantly exposed in the space they vacate.
Post by: Clampy on April 10, 2022, 11:13:38 AM
What's this major philosophy change? Smith mainly played 4-3-3 and we're playing 4-3-3. All managers are different and all are going to have their own style, even if it fits within certain parameters. Who else would we have got who would have played in excactly the same style as Smith, who deprived of Grealish was leading us into a relegation battle, let's not forget.
I think what's been referred to is the plan to bring through the youth, rather than the playing style. I might be wrong but I'm sure Gerrard has come out and said wants players who are going to do it for him now. The likes of Chuck have not had a look in at all the last few games. It does seem a bit of a waste.
Post by: DB on April 10, 2022, 11:16:48 AM
Here’s the worrying thing.
When we went in at half time not having taken any of the myriad chances we had in the previous 40 minutes did anyone NOT think that:
a. Conte would change their shape to nullify us.
b. It would work.
c. Gerrard would not make any changes for us until it was too late.
Totally and utterly predictable.
I’ll give him a chance but I am more and more worried we’ve got ourselves another ‘blunt instrument’ manager who just doesn’t seem to ‘do’ tactics beyond choosing some and sticking with them regardless of what he sees on the pitch.
Your abc is exactly what I was saying at half time.
He talks a good game but he doesn’t seem able to think on his feet. You get the impression that his half time team talk yesterday was the equivalent of “brilliant lads, more of the same” instead of expecting that they would improve and to be ready for it.
He should be allowed the summer to bring in his own players to suit how he wants us to play but I think that unless there is a clear improvement fairly quickly he’ll be gone by Christmas.
My other concern is that we risk wasting the potential of our youngsters as I get the impression of a man who is more interested in experience. I hope I’m wrong.
I said it a week ago. I have the feeling we’ll be looking for a new manager come Nov.
There has been no improvement or signs we can see what is improving. Give him a window and let’s see.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 11:18:10 AM
Conte didn't need to. The difference was, Son. He's world class. If he wore claret and blue, he'd have scored 6 yesterday. But he doesn't and we're absolutely his bunny. 3 shots, 3 goals, poor individual defending from our centre halves. Not shape, not closing lines or low blocs or gengenpress, just a player that has the highest chance conversion rate in the league, almost twice that of Salah. And he gets to play with Kane. While we have Danny "he's 5 years younger than me? No fucking way" Ings and Ollie "Gavin McCann hold my pint" Watkins.
Spurs didn't defend better than us, they gave up a raft of chances. The games simple and goals change games, there's a cliché that is appropriate.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 10, 2022, 11:24:58 AM
Why are people talking about shape? Is that what you think the difference was yesterday, shape? That a tactical tweak yesterday was what happened 2nd half? I'd be curious to know why. Neither manager impacted the game in a meaningful way 2nd half.
Conte didn't need to. The difference was, Son. He's world class. If he wore claret and blue, he'd have scored 6 yesterday. But he doesn't and we're absolutely his bunny. 3 shots, 3 goals, poor individual defending from our centre halves. Not shape, not closing lines or low blocs or gengenpress, just a player that has the highest chance conversion rate in the league, almost twice that of Salah. And he gets to play with Kane. While we have Danny "he's 5 years younger than me? No fucking way" Ings and Ollie "Gavin McCann hold my pint" Watkins.
Spurs didn't defend better than us, they gave up a raft of chances. The games simple and goals change games, there's a cliché that is appropriate.
Yes, Son is world class but our shape made us easy to break against which gave him the opportunity to show it. It’s a recurring theme.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 11:26:41 AM
We had a system based on wing play and now we are very narrow leaving multi-millions worth of talent (Traore, Bailey) completely surplus to requirements. That is a definite shift and a big one.
Did you happen to watch any of Bailey's games under Smith? He played in 6 and we lost 5 of them. His performance against Southampton was as bad anything I ever saw N'Zogbia do (or not do, as the case may be). He's been an utter disaster of a signing so far.
As for the youth, who out of them played very much under Smith? Ramsey last year, which has carried on this year. Chukwuemeka had one sub appearance under Smith in the league this season, he's had 8 under Gerrard. Promising youngsters like Archer are out getting much needed and valuable league experience. Keinan Davis was mostly left to rot before, now he's got his career back on track with a loan at Forest.
I know things are a bit shit at the moment but there's no need to make things up to try to make them look worse than they are.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 11:27:44 AM
Why are people talking about shape? Is that what you think the difference was yesterday, shape? That a tactical tweak yesterday was what happened 2nd half? I'd be curious to know why. Neither manager impacted the game in a meaningful way 2nd half.
Conte didn't need to. The difference was, Son. He's world class. If he wore claret and blue, he'd have scored 6 yesterday. But he doesn't and we're absolutely his bunny. 3 shots, 3 goals, poor individual defending from our centre halves. Not shape, not closing lines or low blocs or gengenpress, just a player that has the highest chance conversion rate in the league, almost twice that of Salah. And he gets to play with Kane. While we have Danny "he's 5 years younger than me? No fucking way" Ings and Ollie "Gavin McCann hold my pint" Watkins.
Spurs didn't defend better than us, they gave up a raft of chances. The games simple and goals change games, there's a cliché that is appropriate.
Yes, Son is world class but our shape made us easy to break against which gave him the opportunity to show it. It’s a recurring theme.
You're chasing a game, it gets stretched. The timing of the 2nd killed it really. We ought to have had at least 3 in the first. You cannot excuse that, not when you're playing a side who are (annoyingly) 4th.
This isn't the Championship when you're waiting for the first mistake. We're generous in our defending and generous in our profligacy.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 11:28:44 AM
What's this major philosophy change? Smith mainly played 4-3-3 and we're playing 4-3-3. All managers are different and all are going to have their own style, even if it fits within certain parameters. Who else would we have got who would have played in excactly the same style as Smith, who deprived of Grealish was leading us into a relegation battle, let's not forget.
I think what's been referred to is the plan to bring through the youth, rather than the playing style. I might be wrong but I'm sure Gerrard has come out and said wants players who are going to do it for him now. The likes of Chuck have not had a look in at all the last few games. It does seem a bit of a waste.
He had one sub appearance under Smith. Whether he should be getting more chances is another thing, but there's been no big shift in policy.
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 11:30:04 AM
Clearly they have better players and we shouldn’t have missed out chances but we made it easy for them at points
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 11:30:19 AM
He was very unlucky yesterday, though. We could have been four-one up at half-time.
Post by: brian green on April 10, 2022, 11:30:42 AM
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 11:32:22 AM
Yeah but they were able to go direct in the second half with longer balls and cut out our team.
Clearly they have better players and we shouldn’t have missed out chances but we made it easy for them at points
They were looking for the long diagonal in the first half, we just pressed them better to cut it out. The 3rd was such amateurish defending, why you'd go to engage there I don't know.
But if the game is 3-1 to you and the crowd is bouncing, you find your legs. If all you can see is blue seats and everytime Son goes near our box he scores, confidence wanes and so does your press.
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 11:33:49 AM
Yeah but they were able to go direct in the second half with longer balls and cut out our team.
Clearly they have better players and we shouldn’t have missed out chances but we made it easy for them at points
They were looking for the long diagonal in the first half, we just pressed them better to cut it out. The 3rd was such amateurish defending, why you'd go to engage there I don't know.
But if the game is 3-1 to you and the crowd is bouncing, you find your legs. If all you can see is blue seats and everytime Son goes near our box he scores, confidence wanes and so does your press.
Undoubtably if we take even one of those chances it’s a completely different game
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on April 10, 2022, 11:34:35 AM
I was wondering when you were going to use the empty seat card again.Bingo!Yeah but they were able to go direct in the second half with longer balls and cut out our team.
Clearly they have better players and we shouldn’t have missed out chances but we made it easy for them at points
They were looking for the long diagonal in the first half, we just pressed them better to cut it out. The 3rd was such amateurish defending, why you'd go to engage there I don't know.
But if the game is 3-1 to you and the crowd is bouncing, you find your legs. If all you can see is blue seats and everytime Son goes near our box he scores, confidence wanes and so does your press.
Post by: Clampy on April 10, 2022, 11:34:48 AM
What's this major philosophy change? Smith mainly played 4-3-3 and we're playing 4-3-3. All managers are different and all are going to have their own style, even if it fits within certain parameters. Who else would we have got who would have played in excactly the same style as Smith, who deprived of Grealish was leading us into a relegation battle, let's not forget.
I think what's been referred to is the plan to bring through the youth, rather than the playing style. I might be wrong but I'm sure Gerrard has come out and said wants players who are going to do it for him now. The likes of Chuck have not had a look in at all the last few games. It does seem a bit of a waste.
He had one sub appearance under Smith. Whether he should be getting more chances is another thing, but there's been no big shift in policy.
That's wrong. He started a couple of games at least under Smith and got off the bench a bit more often. The last time I remember him playing was when he came on in the 2-2 draw against Man Utd.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 11:35:40 AM
Things are not a bit shit. They are dire.
No, things were dire under Smith and we were in a relegation battle. At the moment we're safe in midtable in a bad run of form.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
Yeah but they were able to go direct in the second half with longer balls and cut out our team.
Clearly they have better players and we shouldn’t have missed out chances but we made it easy for them at points
They were looking for the long diagonal in the first half, we just pressed them better to cut it out. The 3rd was such amateurish defending, why you'd go to engage there I don't know.
But if the game is 3-1 to you and the crowd is bouncing, you find your legs. If all you can see is blue seats and everytime Son goes near our box he scores, confidence wanes and so does your press.
Undoubtably if we take even one of those chances it’s a completely different game
Yep, what does £55m worth of strikers get you? No guarantee of goals these days unfortunately. Some of the chances were harder to miss.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 11:37:58 AM
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 11:38:33 AM
I was wondering when you were going to use the empty seat card again.Bingo!Yeah but they were able to go direct in the second half with longer balls and cut out our team.
Clearly they have better players and we shouldn’t have missed out chances but we made it easy for them at points
They were looking for the long diagonal in the first half, we just pressed them better to cut it out. The 3rd was such amateurish defending, why you'd go to engage there I don't know.
But if the game is 3-1 to you and the crowd is bouncing, you find your legs. If all you can see is blue seats and everytime Son goes near our box he scores, confidence wanes and so does your press.
What do you win?
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 11:39:15 AM
What's this major philosophy change? Smith mainly played 4-3-3 and we're playing 4-3-3. All managers are different and all are going to have their own style, even if it fits within certain parameters. Who else would we have got who would have played in excactly the same style as Smith, who deprived of Grealish was leading us into a relegation battle, let's not forget.
I think what's been referred to is the plan to bring through the youth, rather than the playing style. I might be wrong but I'm sure Gerrard has come out and said wants players who are going to do it for him now. The likes of Chuck have not had a look in at all the last few games. It does seem a bit of a waste.
He had one sub appearance under Smith. Whether he should be getting more chances is another thing, but there's been no big shift in policy.
That's wrong. He started a couple of games at least under Smith and got off the bench a bit more often. The last time I remember him playing was when he came on in the 2-2 draw against Man Utd.
It was one league start against Brentford under Smith, I shouldn't have added sub in there. He's come on three times since Man U.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 11:40:12 AM
Not being in a relegation battle might be considered a success for Norwich or Fulham. Not for us.
It's still better than being in one though.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 11:44:17 AM
Post by: Clampy on April 10, 2022, 11:48:15 AM
What's this major philosophy change? Smith mainly played 4-3-3 and we're playing 4-3-3. All managers are different and all are going to have their own style, even if it fits within certain parameters. Who else would we have got who would have played in excactly the same style as Smith, who deprived of Grealish was leading us into a relegation battle, let's not forget.
I think what's been referred to is the plan to bring through the youth, rather than the playing style. I might be wrong but I'm sure Gerrard has come out and said wants players who are going to do it for him now. The likes of Chuck have not had a look in at all the last few games. It does seem a bit of a waste.
He had one sub appearance under Smith. Whether he should be getting more chances is another thing, but there's been no big shift in policy.
That's wrong. He started a couple of games at least under Smith and got off the bench a bit more often. The last time I remember him playing was when he came on in the 2-2 draw against Man Utd.
It was one league start against Brentford under Smith, I shouldn't have added sub in there. He's come on three times since Man U.
It should be more though. I'd have brought him on yesterday after the second goal went in, just to change it a little.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 10, 2022, 11:49:52 AM
Why are people talking about shape? Is that what you think the difference was yesterday, shape? That a tactical tweak yesterday was what happened 2nd half? I'd be curious to know why. Neither manager impacted the game in a meaningful way 2nd half.
Conte didn't need to. The difference was, Son. He's world class. If he wore claret and blue, he'd have scored 6 yesterday. But he doesn't and we're absolutely his bunny. 3 shots, 3 goals, poor individual defending from our centre halves. Not shape, not closing lines or low blocs or gengenpress, just a player that has the highest chance conversion rate in the league, almost twice that of Salah. And he gets to play with Kane. While we have Danny "he's 5 years younger than me? No fucking way" Ings and Ollie "Gavin McCann hold my pint" Watkins.
Spurs didn't defend better than us, they gave up a raft of chances. The games simple and goals change games, there's a cliché that is appropriate.
Agree wholeheartedly. You'd think the managers are actually out there kicking the ball themselves the way we go on about them.
Where I do think Gerrard is deserving of critique is that he continues to play the same wasters week-in, week-out. If all the alternatives truly are worse than the fare we have to endure on the pitch, the rebuilding will take years.
Post by: gpbarr on April 10, 2022, 12:00:40 PM
I don’t want to become a Watford (as some people have put it) which is why it was the wrong decision so early in the season to do a 180 on the Dean philosophy. Now we are reaping what we sow - it’s a complete shambles.
3 years ago we were in the Championship. Then we got promoted and survived on our first season back, then had a wonderful season to finish 11th (huge improvement). And we were developing youth and bringing young players through. That’s progression.
Compare that to now. We are sinking. We are going backwards. Purslow promised us it was all about progression.
People - Steven Gerrard is Tim Sherwood MkII. He is WAY in over his depth and the longer this drags on, the more damage it will do. I genuinely fear for us next season if this charlatan of a manager is still in place come August.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 12:04:30 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 10, 2022, 12:08:05 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on April 10, 2022, 12:17:27 PM
Other teams are taking their chances and we’re missing ours.
Whether Gerrard is the long term answer or not, it’s Watkins and Ings to blame for yesterday not the manager.
Post by: Fasth56 on April 10, 2022, 12:19:43 PM
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 10, 2022, 12:20:15 PM
Should we sack him? Don’t know.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 10, 2022, 12:22:01 PM
Who knows if its right or wrong but it looks like it will be happening.
It's definitely a new chapter in our history and we'll see what Gerrard is made of if he is massively backed by our owners.
Huge gamble and there has clearly been a shift in the clubs development and vision for the future.
Is this how we're going to compete with the top six?
Surely a huge investment is needed for us to even get close if that's the aim.
Is that what we really want or are we happy with a longer term plan of youth development?
As long as our owners are there to fund this policy of less sell on value then fine but boy its not guaranteed in the success stakes.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 12:23:17 PM
I still think it's early days, no need to panic, daft to even think of renting the Little Aston memorial rose garden for the afternoon, but there definitely has been a major policy shift. The idea of managers change but the system remains the same has been quietly dropped and whereas the previous manager's remit was to buy players who would improve, the four we signed in January will get no better. It seems to me that the club is being moulded in the shape of a manager whose ability is still unproven, and if he does turn out to be more Sherwood than Saunders - which I'm not saying for one second - we could be in deep shit for a long time.
Ashley Young and Danny Ings are the two oldest pemanent signings we've made in a long time and they weren't made under Gerrard.
Of the January signings, only one was a permanent first team addition. Coutinho and Olsen are loans, and Chambers was a free, back up defender. There's not nearly enough evidence there to be saying that there's a major shift in emphasis.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 12:29:14 PM
The World Champions left back. Some more of that quality in midfield is absolutely what we need. Whether that's eye watering money on Phillips, I don't know. But quality generally costs a lot and the gap from the midtable to the top 8 looks wide.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 10, 2022, 12:29:18 PM
He has managed to make a group of players who have done well at other stages of their career both at Villa, other clubs and internationally look less than the sum of their parts.
Sans Grealish, when have this set of players suggested that what we are seeing now is less than the sum of their parts?
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 10, 2022, 12:36:31 PM
He has managed to make a group of players who have done well at other stages of their career both at Villa, other clubs and internationally look less than the sum of their parts.
Sans Grealish, when have this set of players suggested that what we are seeing now is less than the sum of their parts?
You haven’t seen these players including Digne and Coutinho play better than the last five games in their careers?
Forget about Grealish. These players have all done it at various different levels including at Villa, other clubs, European competition and internationally.
Name any player in the team that you think is playing anywhere near their potential or ability level?
One or a few players not doing it and it’s the players. If they’re all not playing to their potential, well...
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 12:41:40 PM
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 12:42:32 PM
Name any player in the team that you think is playing anywhere near their potential or ability level?
McGinn, Watkins, Luiz.
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 10, 2022, 12:43:17 PM
I thought the whole reason we had the DOF set up behind the seens was so that we decide on what kind of club we want to be and recruit players and staff around that basis. The fact it now looks like we have signed a lot of players with no real thought process behind it and then appointed a manager that needs a massive squad reset is a major fuck up by Pursow and Lange.
Edit. Probably would be more appropriate in the Lange thread.
This is where I am as well. We will spend money but fear a perpetual circle of shite when it doesn’t work out, we’ll appoint someone else and do the same again. Get better coaches in and work and organise the team, we had about 8 internationals in the starting line up yesterday, they’re not dunces.
Get better recruitment, we might get Biissouma in for £50m but Brighton will replace him with a player for less than half who will be just as good.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 10, 2022, 12:44:35 PM
Name any player in the team that you think is playing anywhere near their potential or ability level?
McGinn, Watkins, Luiz.
So you haven’t seen McGinn or Watkins play better than their recent form?
Luiz has never really got going at Villa and he needs shifting. I don’t watch Brazil, so no idea how he gets in one of the top international teams.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 10, 2022, 12:44:36 PM
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 12:46:02 PM
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 10, 2022, 12:46:09 PM
Coutinho in the first half especially was brilliant yesterday. Some of his movement and passing was pure filth. Surrounding him with Watkins and McGinn is like putting Simon Rattle in charge of an U10s youth orchestra though.
Ha ha. This is good.
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 10, 2022, 12:48:09 PM
worryingly so.
Name any player in the team that you think is playing anywhere near their potential or ability level?
McGinn, Watkins, Luiz.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 12:49:55 PM
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 10, 2022, 12:51:12 PM
The best the most of these players have achieved in the premier league is 11th. That was with Grealish. So I'd say they are about par for the course. Not less than the sum of their parts. We will do better in some matches, worse in others.
Ok. I think he should be getting more out of the players and I think they have the ability to do it. They’ve shown this ability at stages but not consistently. I think a decent and experienced manager would get a tune out of this lot and build from there, but it’s only what I think and neither of us could know for sure. Gerrard isn’t getting a tune out of them and his current run is on a par with what got Smith the boot (which I agreed with).
I don’t know what I’d do if I owned Villa. But I’d be fairly unimpressed at the start he’s made.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 10, 2022, 12:54:23 PM
I’m definitely not in the bin him now camp but it does concern me. McGinn and Watkins are definitely better players than they’re showing at the moment. Luiz isn’t.
For that matter the 2 centre backs and Ings are better than they’re showing as well. That said, even with all that lot at their best we need some extra quality to ‘take us to the next level’ but I’m wondering as I have most of the time he’s been here whether the manager is the level we need too, and that’s based on there being no evidence from his career so far to suggest that he is. Someone with a proven track record would fill me with more confidence that he’s the man to turn this shit around.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 12:55:08 PM
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 10, 2022, 12:55:45 PM
I have believed for many years that we must develop a different mentality where average is not good enough. For that to happen, I fear we have to break what we have. It's a gamble.
Post by: Villan82 on April 10, 2022, 12:59:23 PM
Gerrard needs a transfer window and about 10 games next season but I have to say the results aren't good enough. Meek losses to Newcastle and Watford and now this four game losing streak. Should have 4-5 points more on the board than we do.
Post by: Bad English on April 10, 2022, 01:01:36 PM
It's all a bit shit at the moment.
But he is not going anywhere, is he?
This post looks a bit like a haiku but I can't be arsed to count syllables.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 10, 2022, 01:02:35 PM
I was only thinking / saying to my son yesterday watching the match that we have some very good players but we just rarely look like a cohesive unit / team. Some part of the team fucks up most matches, sometimes all of it and pretty much always the midfield. Yesterday the two strikers were miss firing and the two centre backs looked clumsy.
I’m definitely not in the bin him now camp but it does concern me. McGinn and Watkins are definitely better players than they’re showing at the moment. Luiz isn’t.
For that matter the 2 centre backs and Ings are better than they’re showing as well. That said, even with all that lot at their best we need some extra quality to ‘take us to the next level’ but I’m wondering as I have most of the time he’s been here whether the manager is the level we need too, and that’s based on there being no evidence from his career so far to suggest that he is. Someone with a proven track record would fill me with more confidence that he’s the man to turn this shit around.
This is where I am although you’ve set it out better than I did. I’m not sure if it’s claret and blue glasses but I’ve seen Konsa put in imperious performances, he currently looks a shadow and he’s far from the only one.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 01:03:23 PM
McGinn is the latest scapegoat. Not played in his proper position for about two years. Ran the show in the cup game against Man United. A player who you would struggle to replace for less than £40m. I just think this season has been a car crash. Players have let us down and both managers haven't impressed with their ability to manage their resources and mold a cohesive team out of the players at our disposal.
Gerrard needs a transfer window and about 10 games next season but I have to say the results aren't good enough. Meek losses to Newcastle and Watford and now this four game losing streak. Should have 4-5 points more on the board than we do.
Agree with first paragraph, not the second. He has done nothing to earn a lengthier spell as Villa manager at the moment. No point sacking him now, but no point sticking with him if things haven't improved by May. Someone like Ten Haag or Simeone wouldn’t have so many previously good players looking average or worse.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 01:07:10 PM
Post by: Allan C on April 10, 2022, 01:08:59 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 01:09:20 PM
We are worse than we would be if we had appointed a top manager rather than acting like starstruck teenagers going for someone just because he had a good playing career. See also: Everton.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 10, 2022, 01:13:16 PM
The last time we were good in this league we had a midfield with Barry and Petrov and then Milner looking like our current manager. The difference in quality, passing, knowhow, ability etc etc, any metric you can think of, is absolutely night and day compared to McGinn and Luiz. They're not top half players and they play like it.
You’re comparing the best part of a top 6 / team against the worst part of a struggling to get into the top half team there.
Petrov was very good but possibly the least good from the group of him / Barry / Milner / Young and I actually think Ramsey and McGinn could be fairly close to his level at their best and with someone solid alongside rather than piss weak Luiz / Sanson.
I’d say comparing Luiz/Sanson/Traore/Bailey with Barry/Milner/Young/Downing would be pretty laughable though. I think our centre backs are as good as any from that period apart from Laursen, our full backs now are better, our goalkeeper is quite a bit better and potentially our forwards are not dissimilar. Admittedly Carew was fabulous on his day.
It’s even harder now to break into the top 8 let alone top 6 and whoever comes in they’ll need some extra quality throughout but we need the right man doing it. If Gerrard can pick up 14 plus points before the end of the season I’d be more convinced.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 01:15:41 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 01:23:23 PM
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 10, 2022, 01:27:01 PM
Yes those 3 would walk in over the current 3 no doubt, and although none are out and out DM’s they could all put a foot in and stop the opposition, whilst linking with the forwards so we wouldn’t need a dedicated DM. They’d dominate the game against most and keep us competitive at least against the ‘top 4’.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2022, 01:35:47 PM
McGinn the player of the year last season? Or a different one?
I thought Targett actually won player of the year? McGinn was pretty poor from Jan onwards and usually mirrors the teams form e.g. when he plays well we play well.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 01:36:53 PM
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 01:38:02 PM
I’m in the “in” camp. I was sceptical when we got him but realistically he was the best choice of the contenders back then. He must be given time to build his own squad and that doesn’t mean 1 window. This is going to take time and patience. However, if the owners have any doubts at all, then he should be sacked now before he spends any money at all. The alternative is to end up like Everton with a mish mash Ill fitting squad of three previous managers for any new manager to rebuild fromThis is a pretty good summary - this summer we have to go all in either with him or without him. If they have any doubts that he won’t be there next season they should sack him - otherwise give him the next season at least
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 01:41:02 PM
Targett got players' player, I think. McGinn won fans award but has now, apparently, always been terrible to those who would use an ly excuse not to criticise the Liverpool midfielder.
Sorry to piss on your bonfire but Martinez won the Supporters’ award. I’m not pleased with how things are going but people need to stop making shit up.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 01:43:54 PM
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 01:46:17 PM
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 01:48:22 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 10, 2022, 01:48:43 PM
being accurate is not an essential for posting on the internet.Targett got players' player, I think. McGinn won fans award but has now, apparently, always been terrible to those who would use an ly excuse not to criticise the Liverpool midfielder.
Sorry to piss on your bonfire but Martinez won the Supporters’ award. I’m not pleased with how things are going but people need to stop making shit up.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 01:49:54 PM
He's not played well since Palace in November and he's been horribly out of form since January 2021. This isn't knee jerk he's just not good enough.
But Gerrard is? What's the evidence?
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 01:50:32 PM
Must have been year before then. Never mind. Still confused as to why you can't wait to criticise players but won't direct any criticism at the manager.
I’ve criticised him plenty. Playing Ings and Watkins together again beggars belief. Contiuning to play the woeful McGinn another mistake. Too early to be talking about sacking him though.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 01:51:53 PM
Post by: Clampy on April 10, 2022, 01:53:29 PM
Must have been year before then. Never mind. Still confused as to why you can't wait to criticise players but won't direct any criticism at the manager.
I’ve criticised him plenty. Playing Ings and Watkins together again beggars belief. Contiuning to play the woeful McGinn another mistake. Too early to be talking about sacking him though.
Do you not like McGinn Risso? You could have said sooner.
Post by: Richard E on April 10, 2022, 01:55:17 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 10, 2022, 01:56:16 PM
But then we find ourselves in the middle of a season having to scrape around for the best available manager. I'd rather sack him in May and get someone amazing in.
I agree with cdbearsfan. Unless a manager is at a club with a realistic shout of going far in the European Cup, we could get anyone in Europe if we were to look in the summer.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 10, 2022, 01:57:32 PM
I didn’t actually think McGinn played that badly yesterday <ducks and runs for cover.>
I thought the same until he started turning the ball over to them once he'd run out of puff.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2022, 01:59:12 PM
Targett got players' player, I think. McGinn won fans award but has now, apparently, always been terrible to those who would use an ly excuse not to criticise the Liverpool midfielder.
Sorry to piss on your bonfire but Martinez won the Supporters’ award. I’m not pleased with how things are going but people need to stop making shit up.
Yeah that's what I thought, Emi and Targett won the respective awards. Really Grealish should've had a clean sweep given our form as soon as he got injured but guess people wanted to showcase other players form.
I'd probably rank McGinn 5th based on 20/21 performances (behind Konsa aswell) so reality is he's just a mid table midfielder and eventually we're going to need better. I'd like to see how Buendia could do in his role.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2022, 02:00:37 PM
But then we find ourselves in the middle of a season having to scrape around for the best available manager. I'd rather sack him in May and get someone amazing in.
I agree with cdbearsfan. Unless a manager is at a club with a realistic shout of going far in the European Cup, we could get anyone in Europe if we were to look in the summer.
Pochettino? He'll likely be looking for another job then.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 02:02:28 PM
I think a big turn over of the consolidation players is needed.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 10, 2022, 02:05:20 PM
But then we find ourselves in the middle of a season having to scrape around for the best available manager. I'd rather sack him in May and get someone amazing in.
I agree with cdbearsfan. Unless a manager is at a club with a realistic shout of going far in the European Cup, we could get anyone in Europe if we were to look in the summer.
Pochettino? He'll likely be looking for another job then.
I doubt we'd get him.
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 02:17:16 PM
I would be shocked if we could get him.But then we find ourselves in the middle of a season having to scrape around for the best available manager. I'd rather sack him in May and get someone amazing in.
I agree with cdbearsfan. Unless a manager is at a club with a realistic shout of going far in the European Cup, we could get anyone in Europe if we were to look in the summer.
Pochettino? He'll likely be looking for another job then.
I doubt we'd get him.
I think if there is any chance of getting a manager if that calibre we would be crazy not to go for it.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 02:18:57 PM
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 02:23:23 PM
We need an appointment that will show we mean business. Put it this way, when Newcastle are next looking for a manager, there won't be any contenders who have won less than St Johnstone on the list.
Like Eddie Howe?
Post by: Villan82 on April 10, 2022, 02:25:39 PM
He's not played well since Palace in November and he's been horribly out of form since January 2021. This isn't knee jerk he's just not good enough.
Was superb against United in the cup.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 02:26:34 PM
We need an appointment that will show we mean business. Put it this way, when Newcastle are next looking for a manager, there won't be any contenders who have won less than St Johnstone on the list.
Like Eddie Howe?
Exactly the point I was making, it's much more difficult to attract a top manager in the middle of the season. So we should sack Gerrard in May rather than our usual panicky "best available" appointment in October/November.
Post by: curiousorange on April 10, 2022, 02:32:51 PM
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 02:33:26 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 02:35:46 PM
I would say top half and at least one win from the Liverpool/Man City games to end our pathetic run against top eight teams, or he can go.
Post by: curiousorange on April 10, 2022, 02:39:25 PM
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 10, 2022, 02:44:37 PM
Also the Ramsey effort that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 5.
Then the beauty of a free kick from Phil, again that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 6.
Aston Villa 6 Tottenham Hotspur 1, should have been a half time result; then it would be Gerrard genius, Conte who's he?
Instead it's Gerrard's fault that none of the above happened, but Conte was a genius because his forwards actually managed to bury their chances, with Son alone getting 3 shots and 3 goals.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 02:48:38 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2022, 02:49:39 PM
No, he needs a pre-season and the chance to build his own squad.
He started building his own squad in Jan. We've since lost 6 out of 9 since then.
Post by: curiousorange on April 10, 2022, 02:49:43 PM
Post by: curiousorange on April 10, 2022, 02:52:02 PM
Watkins was much better last season. Didn't watch many Southampton games last year bur assume Ings was, too. Isn't it the manager's job to get the best out of players?
Watkins is a strange one. He really does seem to have a stinker of an attitude this year. Obviously his partnership with Grealish was effective, but he's had a face like a smacked arse since Ings walked in.
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 02:52:22 PM
I'm struggling to understand how 2 clear chances to our 2 strikers, which would have been Aston Villa 4.The result would if have been different if we have taken some of our chances - but I think they would have responded before the 6th went in!
Also the Ramsey effort that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 5.
Then the beauty of a free kick from Phil, again that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 6.
Aston Villa 6 Tottenham Hotspur 1, should have been a half time result; then it would be Gerrard genius, Conte who's he?
Instead it's Gerrard's fault that none of the above happened, but Conte was a genius because his forwards actually managed to bury their chances, with Son alone getting 3 shots and 3 goals.
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 10, 2022, 02:52:58 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 10, 2022, 02:55:28 PM
Watkins is turning into Gabby. Keeps running into his man, can't striker the ball cleanly, seems to cut in from the left into dead ends. His confidence is shot - probably can't handle Smith being sacked.
Thought you were describing Ings there, he was guilty of all that yesterday, taking 2-3 touches just to shift the ball from his foot and just then getting crowded out by their defenders.
Add in missing the two sitters and it's not a great look from a 30m forward really. 3 league goals since August yet he seems to get off lightly from the fanbase on a whole.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 02:55:56 PM
I'm struggling to understand how 2 clear chances to our 2 strikers, which would have been Aston Villa 4.
Also the Ramsey effort that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 5.
Then the beauty of a free kick from Phil, again that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 6.
Aston Villa 6 Tottenham Hotspur 1, should have been a half time result; then it would be Gerrard genius, Conte who's he?
Instead it's Gerrard's fault that none of the above happened, but Conte was a genius because his forwards actually managed to bury their chances, with Son alone getting 3 shots and 3 goals.
We were just unlucky first half. I don't blame Gerrard for that. More blame would be attached for us, yet again, producing a shit half afterwards. Of late the only games we don't have a shit half are those where we have two.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 10, 2022, 02:56:15 PM
Probably, but if Conte is such a tactical genius, why did he not prevent all of them being possibilities in the first place?I'm struggling to understand how 2 clear chances to our 2 strikers, which would have been Aston Villa 4.The result would if have been different if we have taken some of our chances - but I think they would have responded before the 6th went in!
Also the Ramsey effort that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 5.
Then the beauty of a free kick from Phil, again that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 6.
Aston Villa 6 Tottenham Hotspur 1, should have been a half time result; then it would be Gerrard genius, Conte who's he?
Instead it's Gerrard's fault that none of the above happened, but Conte was a genius because his forwards actually managed to bury their chances, with Son alone getting 3 shots and 3 goals.
What lost us the game, by such a large margin, was due to their clinical finishing and our prolificacy in front of goal, I don't blame the manager for that; but that's just my opinion.
Post by: curiousorange on April 10, 2022, 02:56:34 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 10, 2022, 03:07:36 PM
they're both way off the pace - very disappointing.Watkins is turning into Gabby. Keeps running into his man, can't striker the ball cleanly, seems to cut in from the left into dead ends. His confidence is shot - probably can't handle Smith being sacked.
Thought you were describing Ings there, he was guilty of all that yesterday, taking 2-3 touches just to shift the ball from his foot and just then getting crowded out by their defenders.
Add in missing the two sitters and it's not a great look from a 30m forward really. 3 league goals since August yet he seems to get off lightly from the fanbase on a whole.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 10, 2022, 03:08:48 PM
Sleepless nights and all that?!
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 10, 2022, 03:10:23 PM
No, he needs a pre-season and the chance to build his own squad.
To be fair to him and to look at it logically yes. But gut feeling, do you think he’ll get it right? Yes or No…
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 10, 2022, 03:13:49 PM
Is it worth factoring in the fact that both of our srikers have newborns in their lives?both probably have nannies that do all that middle of the night shite
Sleepless nights and all that?!
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 10, 2022, 03:14:02 PM
My gut feeling is yes he can.No, he needs a pre-season and the chance to build his own squad.
To be fair to him and to look at it logically yes. But gut feeling, do you think he’ll get it right? Yes or No…
Much of these players managed to get Deano the sack, I don't see why the same set of players get a free pass with another manager that's coming up against the same lack of commitment, passion, skill, (choose whichever you want).
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 03:17:56 PM
No, he needs a pre-season and the chance to build his own squad.
To be fair to him and to look at it logically yes. But gut feeling, do you think he’ll get it right? Yes or No…
Much comes down to recruitment. For me, we play nice enough football, look very good going forward when we're confident too.
The long term problems are at the middle of the defence and midfield. Ultimately that issue, and not coping post-Grealish, cost Smith his job. High time we addressed it.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on April 10, 2022, 03:18:53 PM
Post by: curiousorange on April 10, 2022, 03:24:35 PM
Is it worth factoring in the fact that both of our srikers have newborns in their lives?
Sleepless nights and all that?!
I do sympathise with that, absolutely. Trouble is, they're not the only football players ever to be in that situation.
Post by: Risso on April 10, 2022, 03:32:47 PM
Is it worth factoring in the fact that both of our srikers have newborns in their lives?
Sleepless nights and all that?!
I do sympathise with that, absolutely. Trouble is, they're not the only football players ever to be in that situation.
Yes that doesn't really stand up as an excuse. We don't know that they are having sleepless nights at all. Lots of babies sleep though quite early (all of ours did) plus they almost certainly live in vast houses and have full time nannies etc.
Post by: wince on April 10, 2022, 04:04:54 PM
Post by: ez on April 10, 2022, 05:08:36 PM
Southampton mugged us off with Cascarino mk2. He'll be gone in the summer.Watkins is turning into Gabby. Keeps running into his man, can't striker the ball cleanly, seems to cut in from the left into dead ends. His confidence is shot - probably can't handle Smith being sacked.
Thought you were describing Ings there, he was guilty of all that yesterday, taking 2-3 touches just to shift the ball from his foot and just then getting crowded out by their defenders.
Add in missing the two sitters and it's not a great look from a 30m forward really. 3 league goals since August yet he seems to get off lightly from the fanbase on a whole.
Post by: Damo70 on April 10, 2022, 05:16:53 PM
His argument is that he came in half way through the season and inherited a mess.
To my mind, deeply concerning though what we have seen thus far is, he has to get a window and a season to be judged fairly.
But it is monstrously depressing watching the same players make the same mistakes over and over.
Exactly where I'm at.
Me too. He needs a summer transfer window and pre season then he can be properly judged when next season kicks off. However I am not impressed so far.
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 05:18:03 PM
Post by: Beard82 on April 10, 2022, 05:21:33 PM
Up to 9 could leave so say the Express and Star.But not til full time
Post by: curiousorange on April 10, 2022, 05:32:45 PM
Up to 9 could leave so say the Express and Star.But not til full time
*gif of Meryl Streep clapping*
Post by: eamonn on April 10, 2022, 05:40:02 PM
Southampton mugged us off with Cascarino mk2. He'll be gone in the summer.Watkins is turning into Gabby. Keeps running into his man, can't striker the ball cleanly, seems to cut in from the left into dead ends. His confidence is shot - probably can't handle Smith being sacked.
Thought you were describing Ings there, he was guilty of all that yesterday, taking 2-3 touches just to shift the ball from his foot and just then getting crowded out by their defenders.
Add in missing the two sitters and it's not a great look from a 30m forward really. 3 league goals since August yet he seems to get off lightly from the fanbase on a whole.
He's a far better finisher than Cantscorino. And he wasn't 30m! £20m to £25m based on ability to father well.
Post by: wittonwarrior on April 10, 2022, 05:45:26 PM
Post by: KevinGage on April 10, 2022, 05:58:24 PM
But now we do - and we're trusting that rebuild to rookie manager who will be doing well to still be at the club in 12 months time.
He might have highfalutin notions of wingless wonders and all the rest of it. But the better managers find a way of working with what they have NOW and getting a tune out of them. It's not as if he's inherited a Norwich or Burnleh-style set up and was asked to work miracles.
His preferred method (which he seemingly doesn't want to deviate from one iota) may have been stumbled upon in the white hot competition that is the Scottish top division. But you could play two at the back there and still piss that league.
Post by: wittonwarrior on April 10, 2022, 06:07:19 PM
Did anyone think we needed major surgery after our business last summer?
But now we do - and we're trusting that rebuild to rookie manager who will be doing well to still be at the club in 12 months time.
He might have highfalutin notions of wingless wonders and all the rest of it. But the better managers find a way of working with what they have NOW and getting a tune out of them. It's not as if he's inherited a Norwich or Burnleh-style set up and was asked to work miracles.
His preferred method may have been stumbled upon in the white hot competition that is the Scottish top division. But you could play two at the back there and still piss that league.
Still only fair all round to give him some time to swim or sink. If it becomes terminal then pull the plug but too soon at the moment, despite by strong reservations
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 06:08:31 PM
Up to 9 could leave so say the Express and Star.But not til full time
Tremendous work.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 10, 2022, 06:27:35 PM
To be fair that's very goodUp to 9 could leave so say the Express and Star.But not til full time
Tremendous work.
Post by: tomd2103 on April 10, 2022, 06:29:56 PM
Did anyone think we needed major surgery after our business last summer?
But now we do - and we're trusting that rebuild to rookie manager who will be doing well to still be at the club in 12 months time.
He might have highfalutin notions of wingless wonders and all the rest of it. But the better managers find a way of working with what they have NOW and getting a tune out of them. It's not as if he's inherited a Norwich or Burnleh-style set up and was asked to work miracles.
His preferred method (which he seemingly doesn't want to deviate from one iota) may have been stumbled upon in the white hot competition that is the Scottish top division. But you could play two at the back there and still piss that league.
Depends on what we are looking to achieve next season. If we are looking at top six, then I think we would need ‘major surgery’. If we are looking at consolidating a place in the top ten then not so sure.
I did wonder about his formation when he first came, as it had been devised and developed with a team that would dominate both possession and territory in almost every league game (although that wouldn’t have been the case in European games I suppose).
We just looked wide open in the second half yesterday and capitulated in a concerning way.
Post by: olaftab on April 10, 2022, 06:38:41 PM
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 06:39:28 PM
Post by: Skerra on April 10, 2022, 06:40:11 PM
Post by: Lucky Eddie on April 10, 2022, 06:58:51 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 10, 2022, 07:07:02 PM
If you're not willing to back the manager, you're asking for him to be sacked.
Yes, I think I am.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 10, 2022, 07:10:02 PM
Up to 9 could leave so say the Express and Star.
Guilbert, Hourahane, Wesley, Davis, AEG, Trez all out on loan currently
Chuck not signing a contract, Coutinho not our player anyway
Young will be 37
There’s 9 for starters not to mention the likes of Hause, Bailey, Sanson, Luiz.
Not really any great scoop :-)
Post by: Ads on April 10, 2022, 07:12:32 PM
I'm not bothered about moving players on, but if we can add a centre half, holding midfielder and centre forward of quality then what happens to those displaced, happens.
Post by: Holte L2 on April 10, 2022, 07:26:24 PM
If you're not willing to back the manager, you're asking for him to be sacked.
Yes, I think I am.
Me too.
Post by: Behind Bluenose Lines on April 10, 2022, 07:50:31 PM
I don't think he'll go, even if some if us do think it would be an ideal time to bring in a more established coach. Purslow's itching to give him money. Something faintly distasteful when you consider it like that.Can't see our ambitious owners letting Purslow do that, particularly if we finish lower than we did last season, and we have every probability we'll do that with Leeds, Brentford and Newcastle picking up points now.
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 10, 2022, 07:53:33 PM
Watkins was much better last season. Didn't watch many Southampton games last year but assume Ings was, too. Isn't it the manager's job to get the best out of players?it is the managers job - but the manager can't do a great deal about Ings not taking chances he's paid to do.
Post by: BC Villain on April 10, 2022, 07:55:01 PM
We need an appointment that will show we mean business. Put it this way, when Newcastle are next looking for a manager, there won't be any contenders who have won less than St Johnstone on the list.
Like Eddie Howe?
Whether you like Eddie Howe or not, he's take a Newcastle team that hadn't won in 15 attempts and has improved them to the point where they're now safe and likely to comfortably finish ahead of us.
In the same period of time, Gerrard has not improved any facet of our play. We still too easy to score against and we now cannot score goals.
I'm not buying this bullshit about being unlucky in the first half. If you have that many chances and screw up every single one, it's rank unprofessional and you get what you deserve.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 10, 2022, 08:06:05 PM
We need an appointment that will show we mean business. Put it this way, when Newcastle are next looking for a manager, there won't be any contenders who have won less than St Johnstone on the list.
Like Eddie Howe?
Whether you like Eddie Howe or not, he's take a Newcastle team that hadn't won in 15 attempts and has improved them to the point where they're now safe and likely to comfortably finish ahead of us.
You mean Eddie Howe's Newcastle who let in 5 against Spurs after being 1-0 up?
Post by: Luke8 on April 10, 2022, 08:07:58 PM
.
I'm not buying this bullshit about being unlucky in the first half. If you have that many chances and screw up every single one, it's rank unprofessional and you get what you deserve.
Sorry, are you putting that on Gerrard or the players?
As a manger you set a team up to try and creat as many, and as high quality, chances as possible, but you can’t do much about the players not finishing them.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 10:06:00 PM
Post by: Meanwood Villa on April 10, 2022, 10:10:49 PM
I don't think he'll go, even if some if us do think it would be an ideal time to bring in a more established coach. Purslow's itching to give him money. Something faintly distasteful when you consider it like that.Can't see our ambitious owners letting Purslow do that, particularly if we finish lower than we did last season, and we have every probability we'll do that with Leeds, Brentford and Newcastle picking up points now.
So our ambitious owners won't back the manager? There's zero chance he's getting the boot so I hope they do.
Post by: Legion on April 10, 2022, 10:11:02 PM
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 10, 2022, 10:14:02 PM
Can't you? If Watkins was scoring twice as many as he did last season I'm sure plenty of people on here would be rushing to praise Gerrard's influence on him. Quite rightly, too.How on earth is it any managers fault that two England internationals miss the absolute sitters that Ings and Watkins did yesterday, they get worse every time i watch them back
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 10, 2022, 10:20:30 PM
I also don't know anyone that is ever pleased when they see that Gerrard has, yet again, chosen to pick Ings ahead Buendia.
Post by: Luke8 on April 10, 2022, 10:47:37 PM
I have reservations about Gerrard as a manager (see second half yesterday as one example), I just thought taking issue with the first half performance because some players missed chances they should (usually would?) score was slightly bizarre.
Post by: Drummond on April 10, 2022, 11:04:39 PM
I'm struggling to understand how 2 clear chances to our 2 strikers, which would have been Aston Villa 4.
Also the Ramsey effort that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 5.
Then the beauty of a free kick from Phil, again that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 6.
Aston Villa 6 Tottenham Hotspur 1, should have been a half time result; then it would be Gerrard genius, Conte who's he?
Instead it's Gerrard's fault that none of the above happened, but Conte was a genius because his forwards actually managed to bury their chances, with Son alone getting 3 shots and 3 goals.
Remind me of the previous three results? In isolation your point may have merit, but we're in a very shit run.
Post by: Hillbilly on April 11, 2022, 12:49:36 AM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 11, 2022, 01:23:40 AM
Post by: aj2k77 on April 11, 2022, 01:44:23 AM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 11, 2022, 01:52:31 AM
Post by: Hillbilly on April 11, 2022, 02:32:49 AM
We can very easily shut the media up by appointing someone amazing, and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think we would have to shop "in the bargain bin". We are a massive, and rich, club in the league that everyone wants to manage in.I love your optimism my friend. Are you sure you're a Villa supporter?
Post by: Rory on April 11, 2022, 03:05:21 AM
We can very easily shut the media up by appointing someone amazing, and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think we would have to shop "in the bargain bin". We are a massive, and rich, club in the league that everyone wants to manage in.I love your optimism my friend. Are you sure you're a Villa supporter?
I'm still Gerrard in (though that is dependent on how we finish the season) but I agree with CD.
Everton got Ancelotti; Tottenham have Conte; Man City - the Nouveau riche, sportswashing billboard with a football team attached - have Guardiola.
We have no reason not to be ambitious.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 11, 2022, 03:43:19 AM
Did anyone think we needed major surgery after our business last summer?
Yes, I voted 13-17 in the pre-season poll. We all despise Grealish so much we are collectively suppressing how incredibly influential he was for us. The ******.
Post by: LeonW on April 11, 2022, 05:50:17 AM
Did anyone think we needed major surgery after our business last summer?
Yes, I voted 13-17 in the pre-season poll. We all despise Grealish so much we are collectively suppressing how incredibly influential he was for us. The ******.
‘For us,’ definitely, but I think quite often the other side of the coin is missed; just how good Villa were for Joe.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on April 11, 2022, 06:58:00 AM
Quote
Knocked out the Cup at the first hurdle and just ONE win in 17 league games !
Football is and has always been about results !
OUT !
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 11, 2022, 07:57:19 AM
I am referring to the most recent game, as the result was not an accurate reflection of the match I saw. A distinct team improvement on the previous 3, and yet our forwards left their shooting boots at home.I'm struggling to understand how 2 clear chances to our 2 strikers, which would have been Aston Villa 4.
Also the Ramsey effort that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 5.
Then the beauty of a free kick from Phil, again that a lot of keepers wouldn't have saved, would have been Aston Villa 6.
Aston Villa 6 Tottenham Hotspur 1, should have been a half time result; then it would be Gerrard genius, Conte who's he?
Instead it's Gerrard's fault that none of the above happened, but Conte was a genius because his forwards actually managed to bury their chances, with Son alone getting 3 shots and 3 goals.
Remind me of the previous three results? In isolation your point may have merit, but we're in a very shit run.
You saw the match, do you think we should not have been comfortably ahead at half time?
If you wish to slate him for previous team performances, then I agree, they where not what we would have expected; to slate him for this game, when the team performance was let down by individual errors, is not the fault of the manager, in my opinion.
Post by: Drummond on April 11, 2022, 08:53:49 AM
Given the thread title, it's not just about Saturday for me but I get your point.
I think I've said before, when trying to argue Smith, or various other managers 'in' that any team can get stuffed, we did it to Liverpool last season. However, right now we're looking like we are shot. I'm sure we won't go down, but 15th doesn't look impossible on current form.
I'd say one of the arguments in favour of Gerrard, is what has happened with Arteta at Arsenal. Disjointed and lacklustre at first and then really coming in to form. He had no experience as a mangmager either.
Post by: sid1964 on April 11, 2022, 09:17:10 AM
Gerrard needs to get a few results between now and the end of the season, to ensure that the owners will trust him to spend their money on new players in the summer.
I worry that Gerrard will spend the money on 29 year + old players who will have no sell on value and we ill be in the same mess as we were when O'Neill walked out on us.
Post by: paul_e on April 11, 2022, 09:57:08 AM
The first goal was a piss poor header from Konsa, the more times I see it the worse it looks, however a proper DM would've been tracking with Kane and might have stoppe him getting the shot away. Luiz just doesn't have that instinct was was jogging a few yards behind Kane as the header was made.
2nd goal Konsa was brushed off too easily by Kane and then once Kulusevski is in the box none of our defenders were willing to go near him because we've been stung by soft penalties too many times. Again though a proper DM gets in front of Kane.
3rd goal is Konsa following Kane into the space where a DM should be and leaving far too much space for Son to run into.
4th looked like we'd given up by that point but we left far too much space at the edge of the box that one of the midfielders should've been occupying, again Luiz was just jogging back without a care in the world.
I think we were pretty clearly looking for a DM in January but, for whatever reason, we never managed to get one in and that has cost us massively. I'm happy for Gerrard to have another window to fix that problem but in the meantime i hope he follows through on the tough talk and drops Konsa and Luiz who played like they were already on the beach. They were definitely the biggest problem for me
Post by: Risso on April 11, 2022, 09:58:10 AM
Post by: Beard82 on April 11, 2022, 10:03:48 AM
I still thought we were onto something - I think the summer was a shambles and the start of season was riddled with injuries but personally I thought we needed one or two quality improvements - mainly in midfield, and left back which we have now downDid anyone think we needed major surgery after our business last summer?
Yes, I voted 13-17 in the pre-season poll. We all despise Grealish so much we are collectively suppressing how incredibly influential he was for us. The ******.
I personally still think by and large that’s the case. The players are out of form but I think we’ll struggle to get much better en mass. 3 top quality additions would make sense given the budget they have mentioned.
Post by: LeeB on April 11, 2022, 10:11:06 AM
It's in from me still.
The first goal was a piss poor header from Konsa, the more times I see it the worse it looks, however a proper DM would've been tracking with Kane and might have stoppe him getting the shot away. Luiz just doesn't have that instinct was was jogging a few yards behind Kane as the header was made.
2nd goal Konsa was brushed off too easily by Kane and then once Kulusevski is in the box none of our defenders were willing to go near him because we've been stung by soft penalties too many times. Again though a proper DM gets in front of Kane.
3rd goal is Konsa following Kane into the space where a DM should be and leaving far too much space for Son to run into.
4th looked like we'd given up by that point but we left far too much space at the edge of the box that one of the midfielders should've been occupying, again Luiz was just jogging back without a care in the world.
I think we were pretty clearly looking for a DM in January but, for whatever reason, we never managed to get one in and that has cost us massively. I'm happy for Gerrard to have another window to fix that problem but in the meantime i hope he follows through on the tough talk and drops Konsa and Luiz who played like they were already on the beach. They were definitely the biggest problem for me
I was watching from home, the wife was away with my Mom and hers and I stayed back with the kids (sorry Ads), and it was a total Konsa horror show.
Well it was until the 3rd goal at least, as I decided to stop making myself feel angry, turned it off and put the new Spiderman film on for us to watch instead.
Post by: Smithy on April 11, 2022, 10:20:36 AM
Gerrard's team are currently in a woeful run, having gone through a great run for three games prior. Strangely, I feel much less bothered about the 4-0 loss to Spurs than I did for the 2-1 loss to Wolves, mainly because we played so badly against Wolves, but actually looked more than capable for 45 mins against Spurs. Until that second went in at the start of the second half, I genuinely thought we could still win the game, such was our performance in the first half and the chances we could seemingly create at will.
Something needs to change, clearly. I don't know what it is (though I suspect the lack of DM in his preferred formation is a big part of it), but I don't think sacking the manager AGAIN is the way to deal with it. He needs a pre-season, he needs to mould the squad to something more akin to how he wants to play, and if we reach his one-year anniversary and we look no better, then fair enough. He'll have had two transfer windows and a pre-season by that point, so can have no excuses.
If we WERE to sack him, who do we get instead? It's not like there are top managers available and willing to join a club with no European football for at LEAST 15-16 months.
Short of us looking like relegation is a genuine threat, I don't like the idea of any manager getting less than a year, anything less is just a waste of everyone's time.
Post by: paul_e on April 11, 2022, 10:24:48 AM
It's in from me still.
The first goal was a piss poor header from Konsa, the more times I see it the worse it looks, however a proper DM would've been tracking with Kane and might have stoppe him getting the shot away. Luiz just doesn't have that instinct was was jogging a few yards behind Kane as the header was made.
2nd goal Konsa was brushed off too easily by Kane and then once Kulusevski is in the box none of our defenders were willing to go near him because we've been stung by soft penalties too many times. Again though a proper DM gets in front of Kane.
3rd goal is Konsa following Kane into the space where a DM should be and leaving far too much space for Son to run into.
4th looked like we'd given up by that point but we left far too much space at the edge of the box that one of the midfielders should've been occupying, again Luiz was just jogging back without a care in the world.
I think we were pretty clearly looking for a DM in January but, for whatever reason, we never managed to get one in and that has cost us massively. I'm happy for Gerrard to have another window to fix that problem but in the meantime i hope he follows through on the tough talk and drops Konsa and Luiz who played like they were already on the beach. They were definitely the biggest problem for me
I was watching from home, the wife was away with my Mom and hers and I stayed back with the kids (sorry Ads), and it was a total Konsa horror show.
Well it was until the 3rd goal at least, as I decided to stop making myself feel angry, turned it off and put the new Spiderman film on for us to watch instead.
It's easily the worst performance I've seen from Konsa for us, was at fault for the first 3 goals and they got through him 2-3 more times on top.
Post by: brontebilly on April 11, 2022, 10:27:23 AM
It's in from me still.
The first goal was a piss poor header from Konsa, the more times I see it the worse it looks, however a proper DM would've been tracking with Kane and might have stoppe him getting the shot away. Luiz just doesn't have that instinct was was jogging a few yards behind Kane as the header was made.
2nd goal Konsa was brushed off too easily by Kane and then once Kulusevski is in the box none of our defenders were willing to go near him because we've been stung by soft penalties too many times. Again though a proper DM gets in front of Kane.
3rd goal is Konsa following Kane into the space where a DM should be and leaving far too much space for Son to run into.
4th looked like we'd given up by that point but we left far too much space at the edge of the box that one of the midfielders should've been occupying, again Luiz was just jogging back without a care in the world.
I think we were pretty clearly looking for a DM in January but, for whatever reason, we never managed to get one in and that has cost us massively. I'm happy for Gerrard to have another window to fix that problem but in the meantime i hope he follows through on the tough talk and drops Konsa and Luiz who played like they were already on the beach. They were definitely the biggest problem for me
I thought Luiz was outstanding in the first half. Won the ball back constantly and got us playing forward. But agreed on main point, Luiz/Konsa/Mings are not playing as a unit. Full backs not covering centre backs, centre backs playing like strangers. McGinn and Ramsey not doing enough to track runners from midfield either. We just look disorganised without the ball and that's back on Gerrard.
Post by: paul_e on April 11, 2022, 10:30:50 AM
The current run is shocking, and yes, Smith got the sack after losing five on the bounce, but he got the sack because of our form over the 10 months of 2021 as a whole, those last five games were just the catalyst. Our 2021 form as a whole was relegation battle form. And I say that as someone who didn't think he should be sacked at the time.
Gerrard's team are currently in a woeful run, having gone through a great run for three games prior. Strangely, I feel much less bothered about the 4-0 loss to Spurs than I did for the 2-1 loss to Wolves, mainly because we played so badly against Wolves, but actually looked more than capable for 45 mins against Spurs. Until that second went in at the start of the second half, I genuinely thought we could still win the game, such was our performance in the first half and the chances we could seemingly create at will.
Something needs to change, clearly. I don't know what it is (though I suspect the lack of DM in his preferred formation is a big part of it), but I don't think sacking the manager AGAIN is the way to deal with it. He needs a pre-season, he needs to mould the squad to something more akin to how he wants to play, and if we reach his one-year anniversary and we look no better, then fair enough. He'll have had two transfer windows and a pre-season by that point, so can have no excuses.
If we WERE to sack him, who do we get instead? It's not like there are top managers available and willing to join a club with no European football for at LEAST 15-16 months.
Short of us looking like relegation is a genuine threat, I don't like the idea of any manager getting less than a year, anything less is just a waste of everyone's time.
Agreed, on top of that I'd say that that the last line applies to the whole of next season as well. We obviously have bigger ambitions than finishing mid-table but if we're safely in the 8-14 area of the table then there's no point sacking him unless there's a manager we really want available immediately. I agree with CD that the summer is a much better time to be looking but I just can't get behind sacking someone this soon when there are clearly still problems we need to address in the squad before we can say his style has failed.
Post by: LeeB on April 11, 2022, 10:36:08 AM
Post by: Luke8 on April 11, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
I think I've said before, when trying to argue Smith, or various other managers 'in' that any team can get stuffed, we did it to Liverpool last season. However, right now we're looking like we are shot. I'm sure we won't go down, but 15th doesn't look impossible on current form.
I'd say one of the arguments in favour of Gerrard, is what has happened with Arteta at Arsenal. Disjointed and lacklustre at first and then really coming in to form. He had no experience as a mangmager either.
I agree with the general point, although I’m not really sure that we do ‘form’ this season. We pretty much seem to lose (and perform averagely to poor) against the top eight and beat (performing averagely to decently) against everyone else.
In fact, our record when you take out the current top eight is the best of the rest of the teams - it’s actually pretty similar to Wolves and West Ham, they have obviously both just beaten us twice and nicked a couple more points off the ‘top six’.
And, overall, I would say that is probably more or less on par with where we are as a squad. I think Gerrard could be doing a bit more with the squad, and certainly it shouldn’t be beyond him to be getting better performance against those top 8, but most of our players are probably of the level of an 8th-12th team in my opinion.
Post by: paul_e on April 11, 2022, 10:37:59 AM
I thought Luiz was outstanding in the first half. Won the ball back constantly and got us playing forward. But agreed on main point, Luiz/Konsa/Mings are not playing as a unit. Full backs not covering centre backs, centre backs playing like strangers. McGinn and Ramsey not doing enough to track runners from midfield either. We just look disorganised without the ball and that's back on Gerrard.
Yeah, he did have a good first half (other than the first goal but the blame is mostly on Konsa there). 2nd haf was a horror show from him, nearly as poor as Konsa.
I think it's more than just them not playing as a unit though, I don't think they even see themselves as a unit. I don't agree with criticism of McGinn, Ramsey and Cash though, Ramsey and Cash were 2 of our better players all game and whilst McGinn had a poor 2nd half it wasn't about not tracking back, it was that he looked like he was fucked and needed to come off.
Post by: boozey182 on April 11, 2022, 10:56:38 AM
There are mitigating factors, but the worse the results are, the more insignificant those start to look. Almost without exception, we have seen all of these players play better than they currently are - whatever their weaknesses and ceilings are, he isn’t getting the best out of this squad, which is the absolute minimum you want from the manager. Even if we improve the quality, we want a manager that will get the best out of them, and Gerrard hasn’t shown that he can do that yet.
He’ll get the summer, I think it almost doesn’t matter how the rest of the season goes from the board’s point of view. I’m reminded of the Malcolm Tucker quote “The PM is not going to sack you after a week. Sacked after 12 months - looks like you've fucked up. Sacked after a week - looks like he's fucked up.” (Incidentally, there were plenty of other Malcolm Tucker quotes that came to mind at the game on Saturday)
That doesn’t mean I agree with that, of course, but I think it’s just inevitable. He’ll get bucket-loads of money, and all we can do is hope that he spends it correctly. The comments about “not looking for potential” worry me a lot, maybe O’Neill’s legacy is just still too recent for a lot of us. Looking at the January signings I have not been particularly impressed by Digne so far (I thought we’d want someone with more pace to be honest), although Chambers looks like an excellent signing for the money. Coutinho is a coup, for sure, but even he has looked ordinary recently. None of it screams ‘excellent in the transfer market’ but it is a small sample size to be fair.
We’re far too easy to play against. We were fantastic in the first half - really energetic and pressing high up the pitch, and we were certainly unlucky to go in at half-time behind. But when chatting to my Dad during the interval I asked him what he would do if he was Conte. “Target Konsa” he said. “Yep, tell Kane to stand next to Konsa, and get the ball up to him as quickly as possible” I agreed. We are not experts, it was just obvious, and they destroyed us without having to play well because of their tactics.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that any half-decent manager we have come up against has beaten us.
Is it Gerrard’s fault that Konsa was having a nightmare? Certainly not completely, Konsa has to take a decent amount of the blame. But with so many players playing poorly, when we have seen them all play a lot better, I think we are well within our rights to question the manager. A lot of us thought that Konsa was unlucky not to play in the Euros last summer, now he looks very much a Championship player. And he’s far from the only one.
Do we know for sure that Gerrard will fail next season, and waste a load of money this summer? No. Do we have any evidence to suggest that we’ll improve to the level that we are aiming for after more investment? Again, no.
And this is the reason I didn’t really want him in the first place. It is a risk, and even after 6 months, we have no idea if he is any good or not. Every decent run is quickly followed by a dreadful one, and, even more worryingly, the longer he has with the squad, the worse we seem to be getting. The same, underperforming players get picked every week, and there seems to be very little variation with the tactics.
We were unlucky in the first half on Saturday, which gives me a bit of hope. But it seems to me that drawing hope from a first half performance in a 4-0 loss, or the fact that most of our players are really shit - then we’re getting a little bit desperate.
We got the last 9 months or so completely wrong. We cannot afford to do that again and let a load more clubs overtake or pull further away from us. There has to be a point where losing four on the bounce isn’t acceptable or excusable. But it looks like that might not be until August.
Post by: Beard82 on April 11, 2022, 11:06:21 AM
Short of us losing every game for the rest of the season - I can’t see us sacking him - so he gets next season.
In terms of the we can’t keep sacking managers - I don’t think we have been really - Bruce got a fair crack, as did Dean
SG frustrates the hell out of me because we see the same formations, tactics, players and subs each week and they rarely work - and I would say virtually all our players are in worse form they have been in.
We won’t be able to change more than 3 maybe 4 players this summer without bringing in players of questionable quality - and not fully convinced that Gomez is much of an upgrade on Konsa or Mings - for example.
Hopefully a more balanced midfield is the key.
I think he def has the potential - and I wonder if rangers has hindered him more than helped him - as his only managerial experience is if you keep upgrading players eventual you be better. Think he needs to be more flexible with this thinking
I’m in unless a world class coach becomes available or we don’t win again this season.
Post by: Beard82 on April 11, 2022, 11:32:59 AM
Why would players choose us other newcastle. in Jan we had a clear lead over these 3 clubs - a strong finish could be key in making the summer a success
Post by: Brend'Watkins on April 11, 2022, 11:44:55 AM
Post by: levico on April 11, 2022, 12:28:25 PM
Those who back him say yes he is albeit slowly. Not sure I see any evidence of that but patience was never a virtue for me.
Post by: AV82EC on April 11, 2022, 12:41:08 PM
This club, an absolute mystery to me even after 30 odd years.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 11, 2022, 12:45:23 PM
It was the Konsa from his first season, before lockdown, where I wasn't in the slightest bit convinced and felt he was too lightweight to be effective.
I thought he was pretty good in that first season considering his age and lack of PL experience, a star in the making. At this point though i'm wondering whether i was a bit hasty with my optimism.
Post by: AV82EC on April 11, 2022, 12:48:11 PM
It was the Konsa from his first season, before lockdown, where I wasn't in the slightest bit convinced and felt he was too lightweight to be effective.
I thought he was pretty good in that first season considering his age and lack of PL experience, a star in the making. At this point though i'm wondering whether i was a bit hasty with my optimism.
On Saturdays showing I think you may have been. He’s out of form currently and I’m struggling to see why he was bought back into the team over Chambers who’d been rock solid in the 3 wins.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 11, 2022, 12:56:33 PM
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 11, 2022, 12:56:46 PM
Post by: Risso on April 11, 2022, 01:04:35 PM
Post by: paul_e on April 11, 2022, 01:06:57 PM
If I look at Palace for example last Monday night against Arse and compare their in your face attitude from the off to our half arsed floaty let them play nonsense, whos fault is that? My biggest issue with him is his lack of a plan b and also my biggest concern with him is they aren't giving it their all for him. How do you explain the complete abject surrender in halves and sometimes whole matches. I maintain that he is more of a Hoddle 'why aren't this lot as good as me' type Manager - that just doesn't fly these days. Although it should if the players are anywhere near ambitious. And maybe that is the other problem. For far too long now Villa has been a cushy number.
I don't think the bold bit is fair. I've seen no evidence that Gerrard has that attitude. However I do think he's tried to push the players more than they were used to, some (like Ramsey and Cash) have responded well and really pushed on, a few others, who were already in poor form, have just not been able to kick on. I don't think there are any players who are worse now than when he arrived though.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 11, 2022, 01:12:44 PM
He needs to ditch either Watkins or Ings. Put Buendia back in, and concentrating on creating the ten+ chances that either of our misfiring strikers seem to need to score one goal.
I slightly prefer the one behind and 2 up front, especially with Coutinho there as he can be a bit more central, have a free role almost and i think Watkins and Ings, as much as they've not looked a good pairing, are good players that will click eventually. That said, what i'm really hoping is that they'll be competing with each other next season to be first choice with a new expensive star striker. Buendia would be suited to where Coutinho has been playing in that formation if we can't get him permanently but again it would be nice to think that we'll sign an alternative to compete with Buendia for that slot if unable to get Coutinho.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 11, 2022, 04:07:04 PM
The first half was a good performance that the result somewhat overshadowed. Cumulatively we're not doing very well.Well noted with thanks.
Given the thread title, it's not just about Saturday for me but I get your point.
I think I've said before, when trying to argue Smith, or various other managers 'in' that any team can get stuffed, we did it to Liverpool last season. However, right now we're looking like we are shot. I'm sure we won't go down, but 15th doesn't look impossible on current form.
I'd say one of the arguments in favour of Gerrard, is what has happened with Arteta at Arsenal. Disjointed and lacklustre at first and then really coming in to form. He had no experience as a mangmager either.
Post by: brontebilly on April 11, 2022, 06:19:02 PM
It was the Konsa from his first season, before lockdown, where I wasn't in the slightest bit convinced and felt he was too lightweight to be effective.
I thought he was pretty good in that first season considering his age and lack of PL experience, a star in the making. At this point though i'm wondering whether i was a bit hasty with my optimism.
On Saturdays showing I think you may have been. He’s out of form currently and I’m struggling to see why he was bought back into the team over Chambers who’d been rock solid in the 3 wins.
Chambers was shite v West Ham hence lost his spot.
Post by: BC Villain on April 11, 2022, 06:19:36 PM
If I look at Palace for example last Monday night against Arse and compare their in your face attitude from the off to our half arsed floaty let them play nonsense, whos fault is that? My biggest issue with him is his lack of a plan b and also my biggest concern with him is they aren't giving it their all for him. How do you explain the complete abject surrender in halves and sometimes whole matches. I maintain that he is more of a Hoddle 'why aren't this lot as good as me' type Manager - that just doesn't fly these days. Although it should if the players are anywhere near ambitious. And maybe that is the other problem. For far too long now Villa has been a cushy number.
Plus Palace have pretty much got the same team they had under Hodgson. Vieira has improved that team by coaching and working with the players he's inherited - Gerrard meanwhile is prattling on about spending more money.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 11, 2022, 09:17:03 PM
He needs to ditch either Watkins or Ings. Put Buendia back in, and concentrating on creating the ten+ chances that either of our misfiring strikers seem to need to score one goal.
This is one amongst many dilemmas though. Your right in that Ings and Watkins has hardly ever worked, Southampton at home and Leeds away aside. However, as much as i also would like to see Beundia in the side, him being in their seems to negate the influence of Coutinhio, maybe taking up too much of his natural space. I wonder if Coutinhio cutting in off the left and Beundia off the right with one central striker (choose whichever misfiring one you want), would offer something. Mcginn/Sanson and Ramsey could sit in the middle of the park with Nakamba covering the back 4. Clutching at straws no doubt.
Post by: Risso on April 11, 2022, 09:30:42 PM
Plus Palace have pretty much got the same team they had under Hodgson. Vieira has improved that team by coaching and working with the players he's inherited - Gerrard meanwhile is prattling on about spending more money.
Apart from the excellent Conor Gallagher on loan from Chelsea and the £60m+ they spent on Olise, Edouard, Guehi and Andersen, yes pretty much exactly the same team as Hodgson.
Post by: Beard82 on April 11, 2022, 09:59:12 PM
This is what I would like to see - I think Emi2 played most of his football at Norwich on the right - and I think it would suit him as he would have a little more space, without taking it from Coutinhio. Think that could also ensure there is space for Ramsey surging forwardHe needs to ditch either Watkins or Ings. Put Buendia back in, and concentrating on creating the ten+ chances that either of our misfiring strikers seem to need to score one goal.
This is one amongst many dilemmas though. Your right in that Ings and Watkins has hardly ever worked, Southampton at home and Leeds away aside. However, as much as i also would like to see Beundia in the side, him being in their seems to negate the influence of Coutinhio, maybe taking up too much of his natural space. I wonder if Coutinhio cutting in off the left and Beundia off the right with one central striker (choose whichever misfiring one you want), would offer something. Mcginn/Sanson and Ramsey could sit in the middle of the park with Nakamba covering the back 4. Clutching at straws no doubt.
Post by: brontebilly on April 11, 2022, 10:47:11 PM
This is what I would like to see - I think Emi2 played most of his football at Norwich on the right - and I think it would suit him as he would have a little more space, without taking it from Coutinhio. Think that could also ensure there is space for Ramsey surging forwardHe needs to ditch either Watkins or Ings. Put Buendia back in, and concentrating on creating the ten+ chances that either of our misfiring strikers seem to need to score one goal.
This is one amongst many dilemmas though. Your right in that Ings and Watkins has hardly ever worked, Southampton at home and Leeds away aside. However, as much as i also would like to see Beundia in the side, him being in their seems to negate the influence of Coutinhio, maybe taking up too much of his natural space. I wonder if Coutinhio cutting in off the left and Beundia off the right with one central striker (choose whichever misfiring one you want), would offer something. Mcginn/Sanson and Ramsey could sit in the middle of the park with Nakamba covering the back 4. Clutching at straws no doubt.
Buendia didn't impress at all when he played there earlier in the season. Looked very one paced.
Post by: Dave P on April 12, 2022, 07:24:03 AM
It was the Konsa from his first season, before lockdown, where I wasn't in the slightest bit convinced and felt he was too lightweight to be effective.
I thought he was pretty good in that first season considering his age and lack of PL experience, a star in the making. At this point though i'm wondering whether i was a bit hasty with my optimism.
On Saturdays showing I think you may have been. He’s out of form currently and I’m struggling to see why he was bought back into the team over Chambers who’d been rock solid in the 3 wins.
Chambers was shite v West Ham hence lost his spot.
Yet Konsa has been shite since and kept his.
Post by: LeeB on April 12, 2022, 09:37:44 AM
It was the Konsa from his first season, before lockdown, where I wasn't in the slightest bit convinced and felt he was too lightweight to be effective.
I thought he was pretty good in that first season considering his age and lack of PL experience, a star in the making. At this point though i'm wondering whether i was a bit hasty with my optimism.
On Saturdays showing I think you may have been. He’s out of form currently and I’m struggling to see why he was bought back into the team over Chambers who’d been rock solid in the 3 wins.
Chambers was shite v West Ham hence lost his spot.
Yet Konsa has been shite since and kept his.
I don't remember Chambers being particularly bad against West Ham either.
Post by: Risso on April 12, 2022, 09:39:42 AM
I don't remember Chambers being particularly bad against West Ham either.
Me either. I seem to recall he could have done a bit better with one of the goals but it's a world away from literally handing three or four goals on a plate like Konsa did. We also might have won/got something out of that game if Ings had slammed that effort home from 5 yards.
Post by: LeeB on April 12, 2022, 09:47:07 AM
I don't remember Chambers being particularly bad against West Ham either.
Me either. I seem to recall he could have done a bit better with one of the goals but it's a world away from literally handing three or four goals on a plate like Konsa did. We also might have won/got something out of that game if Ings had slammed that effort home from 5 yards.
I remember that, McGinn playing a pointless pass into a heavily marked Bailey which quickly turned into the killer second goal, and Young choosing the single worst option available with the precious little time left on the clock.
Post by: Drummond on April 12, 2022, 10:39:46 AM
They aren't all shit players, and if they are all out of form at the same time, how is that explained?
Post by: algy on April 12, 2022, 11:13:20 AM
So we're saying that McGinn, Young, Ings, Konsa, Watkins, Mings, Luiz, Digne and Bailey were all at fault and shit?Think it's a mixture of being out of form, injured, and not played to their strengths.
They aren't all shit players, and if they are all out of form at the same time, how is that explained?
Genuinely think they're all mid-table or higher Premier League quality players - with the exception of Ashley Young. McGinn has been linked regularly with Manc Utd and (I think) Liverpool, and is the star of the Scottish national team. Ings has been a prolific striker with 2 separate clubs. Mings is a regular in the England squad, Ollie Watkins becoming one. Konsa has been talked about as being on the fringes of that same team. Luiz is a Brazilian international who at one point we were worried Man City would want him back. Digne was Everton's best player prior to us signing him. Bailey was the second coming if you read the talk of him after he'd signed, but before he'd played for us. All should be somewhere around their prime as players.
I do have a few concerns about Gerrard in that regard. He isn't getting the most out of what he has right now, and he's trying to force a system that the players - by his own admission - haven't completely bought in to, and the squad doesn't look particularly suited to. When he does have a player in form (Buendia), he doesn't do anything to try to use that as a catalyst for the rest of the side.
As before, I'm "Gerrard In", and probably will still be come the end of the season. But I'm mildly concerned by what I've seen so far
Post by: Risso on April 12, 2022, 11:33:03 AM
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 12, 2022, 12:26:14 PM
Plus Palace have pretty much got the same team they had under Hodgson. Vieira has improved that team by coaching and working with the players he's inherited - Gerrard meanwhile is prattling on about spending more money.
This is true. If you ignore the 12 players they brought in and the 15 players they shipped out. But, those 27 aside, pretty much the same team.
Post by: Risso on April 12, 2022, 12:55:52 PM
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 12, 2022, 01:05:38 PM
Brilliant.Plus Palace have pretty much got the same team they had under Hodgson. Vieira has improved that team by coaching and working with the players he's inherited - Gerrard meanwhile is prattling on about spending more money.
This is true. If you ignore the 12 players they brought in and the 15 players they shipped out. But, those 27 aside, pretty much the same team.
The Gerrard debate is exactly that.
As always with any football team and manager it's up for debate.
But some opinions are downright plain bonkers.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 12, 2022, 01:16:36 PM
I already pointed that out Scott! It’s been the week for making things up, from John McGinn’s player of the year award last year to Dean Smith buying all young players compared to Gerrard’s old guard.Season ticket prices are going up massively aswell.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 12, 2022, 01:22:45 PM
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 12, 2022, 01:24:59 PM
I already pointed that out Scott! It’s been the week for making things up, from John McGinn’s player of the year award last year to Dean Smith buying all young players compared to Gerrard’s old guard.
You did, indeed. I got triggered and could not hold back!
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 12, 2022, 01:26:18 PM
He needs to ditch either Watkins or Ings. Put Buendia back in, and concentrating on creating the ten+ chances that either of our misfiring strikers seem to need to score one goal.
This.
Post by: curiousorange on April 12, 2022, 01:37:53 PM
Plus he has got a lower win percentage ratio than Lampard.
Having played more games, and one of them not being Borehamwood.
Post by: Dave P on April 12, 2022, 01:52:59 PM
It was the Konsa from his first season, before lockdown, where I wasn't in the slightest bit convinced and felt he was too lightweight to be effective.
I thought he was pretty good in that first season considering his age and lack of PL experience, a star in the making. At this point though i'm wondering whether i was a bit hasty with my optimism.
On Saturdays showing I think you may have been. He’s out of form currently and I’m struggling to see why he was bought back into the team over Chambers who’d been rock solid in the 3 wins.
Chambers was shite v West Ham hence lost his spot.
Yet Konsa has been shite since and kept his.
I don't remember Chambers being particularly bad against West Ham either.
Well no, nor me.
Post by: artvandelay on April 12, 2022, 07:20:13 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 12, 2022, 07:29:59 PM
If we’d appointed Neil Lennon instead of Gerrard, and had identical form since, would more people be calling for him to be sacked or would we still be saying give him a window?Give him a window or 2
Post by: Goldenballs on April 12, 2022, 07:31:10 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 12, 2022, 07:55:18 PM
If we’d appointed Neil Lennon instead of Gerrard, and had identical form since, would more people be calling for him to be sacked or would we still be saying give him a window?
I wouldn’t be calling for him to be sacked. I’d question why we hired him in the first place.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 12, 2022, 08:01:14 PM
If we’d appointed Neil Lennon instead of Gerrard, and had identical form since, would more people be calling for him to be sacked or would we still be saying give him a window?
Hard to say, Gerrard's not a ginger though.
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 12, 2022, 08:08:35 PM
I'd throw him out the nearest window.or you could kick him through the window like Shaun Michaels did to Marty Janetty.
Post by: Ads on April 12, 2022, 08:21:24 PM
All academic and for the breeze mind, as he isn't going anywhere and will be heavily backed in the summer.
Post by: Lizz on April 12, 2022, 08:22:06 PM
Post by: brontebilly on April 12, 2022, 08:57:57 PM
People have turned very, very quickly, in less than a month for some and in the case of others, more waiting for a sticky patch to voice what they've wanted to since likely before/as he was appointed.
All academic and for the breeze mind, as he isn't going anywhere and will be heavily backed in the summer.
Their might be an element of that but the most concerning thing is that there has been little or no consistent improvement in the form of most individual players. Cash and Ramsey have impressed. Coutinho obviously also. But that's it. One of his big signings Digne has been distinctly underwhelming too. Defensively we are a shambles without the ball.
Is the reality that our recruitment has been shambolic for the last couple of seasons particularly last summer? If it is then surely Lange or even Purslow has to go. Did Grealish make any amount of players (McGinn, Watkins, Traore, Luiz) seem better than they actually are?
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
Post by: Beard82 on April 12, 2022, 09:08:59 PM
Think that last statement is probably the biggest concern - for the first time under NSWE there has been a disconnect. Something in the setup has gone wrongPeople have turned very, very quickly, in less than a month for some and in the case of others, more waiting for a sticky patch to voice what they've wanted to since likely before/as he was appointed.
All academic and for the breeze mind, as he isn't going anywhere and will be heavily backed in the summer.
Their might be an element of that but the most concerning thing is that there has been little or no consistent improvement in the form of most individual players. Cash and Ramsey have impressed. Coutinho obviously also. But that's it. One of his big signings Digne has been distinctly underwhelming too. Defensively we are a shambles without the ball.
Is the reality that our recruitment has been shambolic for the last couple of seasons particularly last summer? If it is then surely Lange or even Purslow has to go. Did Grealish make any amount of players (McGinn, Watkins, Traore, Luiz) seem better than they actually are?
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
Post by: Ads on April 12, 2022, 09:12:45 PM
People have turned very, very quickly, in less than a month for some and in the case of others, more waiting for a sticky patch to voice what they've wanted to since likely before/as he was appointed.
All academic and for the breeze mind, as he isn't going anywhere and will be heavily backed in the summer.
Their might be an element of that but the most concerning thing is that there has been little or no consistent improvement in the form of most individual players. Cash and Ramsey have impressed. Coutinho obviously also. But that's it. One of his big signings Digne has been distinctly underwhelming too. Defensively we are a shambles without the ball.
Is the reality that our recruitment has been shambolic for the last couple of seasons particularly last summer? If it is then surely Lange or even Purslow has to go. Did Grealish make any amount of players (McGinn, Watkins, Traore, Luiz) seem better than they actually are?
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
I think we've been consistently mistable since he took over. We're never far out of games that we lose, but we do some incredibly daft things.
Marv isn't a panacea, but I think he ought to make a difference. Luiz has had a good 45 minutes in months, Mings does daft things, Konsa's form has dropped. Bailey hasn't been fit and hasn't looked up with the pace, Digne is forever breaking. Our strikers have been in horrible form all season, McGinn has been poor, with brief moments for a long time.
We need to harden up defensively. We have been saying that for a long time and under 2 managers. We're never going to get consistency with these players. We couldn't under Smith with a world class one, devoid of a Grealish as we have been, that's always been unlikely since. Regenerate the spine and you can carry more players, but you won't grind wins or draws out with the spine we have.
Post by: gpbarr on April 12, 2022, 09:19:09 PM
You want to bet he wont lose all 7 given the complete lack of plan, style, belief, or momentum???
Post by: Ads on April 12, 2022, 09:22:35 PM
Him being manager next season and backed heavily over the summer is imminently more likely than any other scenario on this thread, no matter how much doomladden wish fulfilment people may wish to engage in.
Post by: Richard E on April 12, 2022, 09:27:20 PM
Post by: Legion on April 12, 2022, 09:38:18 PM
There is absolutely no chance whatsoever we are going to lose 11 games in a row.
Would you like to bet against us?
Post by: Ads on April 12, 2022, 09:40:52 PM
Gerrard has already beaten Leicester, Palace and Norwich, but hey ho, they must all be amazing to be...about where we are or miles behind and adrift at the bottom.
Apart from Liverpool and Man City, the other 5 are games we have, we hold a good chance of winning on any given day.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 12, 2022, 09:42:03 PM
There is absolutely no chance whatsoever we are going to lose 11 games in a row.
Every Aston Villa squad in my time as a supporter: "hold my beer..."
Post by: Beard82 on April 12, 2022, 10:26:08 PM
As ads says - it’s pretty much certain he gets backed heavily in the summer.
Gerrard will make his life a lot easier if he can find a way of winning 3 or 4 games as it will quieten twats like me and hopefully look more appealing to our targets
I personally have gone from being excited by the summer window to nervous - as I have the nagging feeling that’s it’s not all that joined up and could end up being a mess like last summer.
A number of the touted signing seem unlikely - like Bisomma and Phillips, or gambles like Gomez and Surez
Post by: Behind Bluenose Lines on April 12, 2022, 10:41:30 PM
It's eminently possible to lose 11 in a row when you grossly exaggerate the prowess of opposition, especially those who are about as good as you and even more so for those who are absolutely lamentable and have been all season.We'll end up beating one of those two, and losing both times to Burnley. It's the Villa way!
Gerrard has already beaten Leicester, Palace and Norwich, but hey ho, they must all be amazing to be...about where we are or miles behind and adrift at the bottom.
Apart from Liverpool and Man City, the other 5 are games we have, we hold a good chance of winning on any given day.
Post by: Beard82 on April 12, 2022, 11:45:36 PM
I have the nagging thought we’ll beat Liverpool and lose to Man City - giving Joe the title and everyone non villa the headline of Gerrard blowing the title for Liverpool againIt's eminently possible to lose 11 in a row when you grossly exaggerate the prowess of opposition, especially those who are about as good as you and even more so for those who are absolutely lamentable and have been all season.We'll end up beating one of those two, and losing both times to Burnley. It's the Villa way!
Gerrard has already beaten Leicester, Palace and Norwich, but hey ho, they must all be amazing to be...about where we are or miles behind and adrift at the bottom.
Apart from Liverpool and Man City, the other 5 are games we have, we hold a good chance of winning on any given day.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 13, 2022, 02:25:26 AM
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
What is Lange's role exactly? What does Sporting Director at Villa mean - is it a traditional DoF role or is he, ultimately, just responsible for transfer suggestions & assessments?
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 13, 2022, 09:32:33 AM
or it could go down to the wire and a nil nil draw at Citeh gives Redscouse the title. The line up Cash House Mings Chambers Konsa Young Nakamba + 3 more to run about a bit.I have the nagging thought we’ll beat Liverpool and lose to Man City - giving Joe the title and everyone non villa the headline of Gerrard blowing the title for Liverpool againIt's eminently possible to lose 11 in a row when you grossly exaggerate the prowess of opposition, especially those who are about as good as you and even more so for those who are absolutely lamentable and have been all season.We'll end up beating one of those two, and losing both times to Burnley. It's the Villa way!
Gerrard has already beaten Leicester, Palace and Norwich, but hey ho, they must all be amazing to be...about where we are or miles behind and adrift at the bottom.
Apart from Liverpool and Man City, the other 5 are games we have, we hold a good chance of winning on any given day.
Post by: Ger Regan on April 13, 2022, 11:00:53 AM
The area that i do have a lot of concern about is SG's apparent focus on "passion". The whole "i lost an leg in verdun and have 16 pins in my hip, didn't do me any harm" schtick is outdated, and I really don't want us to turn into a dirty team. At best we are starting to be reckless in challenges, cash's against doherty as an example, if that was Mee against us i can just imagine what the reaction would be like.
Post by: ez on April 13, 2022, 11:09:22 AM
Post by: gpbarr on April 13, 2022, 11:53:29 AM
I have seen very little in anything that has happened to suggest one more transfer window will put us back on track under his management. If anything, the individual standards have dropped and the PPG is slightly worse than under Smith (in PL).
The most damning of all is his constant “we will make changes” statements that then turn out to be bullshit. If he feels he can’t because the squad is so poor don’t fucking say it! Else do what you say man and change it up! As many others have said, the brutal reality is that at the moment, about the only thing to admire is the press conferences - after that the cupboard runs bare.
Post by: Walmley_Villa on April 13, 2022, 12:38:30 PM
Post by: Nelly on April 13, 2022, 02:00:44 PM
As it is, our defence look awful, our midfield can be non-existent and our strikers are just lost. For me, a top manager would be able to bring out more from what he has available and the solution shouldn't just be to buy another team. So a worried "in" from me, purely on the principle of wanting to give him a fair shake of the stick.
Post by: robbo1874 on April 13, 2022, 02:47:29 PM
Massive pressure on Purslow - SG is a Purslow appointment, knows him from Liverpool days, high profile name....he won't be sacked any time soon and expect the Board driven by Purslow to back him heavily in the Summer.might be wrong with this, but I thought Purslow was calling it a day at the end of this season?
Post by: Risso on April 13, 2022, 02:58:20 PM
Post by: brontebilly on April 13, 2022, 03:16:49 PM
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
What is Lange's role exactly? What does Sporting Director at Villa mean - is it a traditional DoF role or is he, ultimately, just responsible for transfer suggestions & assessments?
No idea on the job spec but I would have thought a more traditional DoF role. Surely should be responsible for ensuring at all levels our teams play a certain way, coaches all buy into it, scouting/recruitment is aligned, manage player contracts etc. Should prevent a situation like what happened us after MON left and minimising the power of the "head coach". Fair enough there might be a certain readjustment needed with a new coach comes in but there's something definitely amiss currently.
Is anyone following Wolves reasonably closely? Bruno Lage didn't torch the playbook when he took over did he? Worked with existing players improving them and maybe a few odd signings.
Post by: Ads on April 13, 2022, 06:37:03 PM
By May 15th, Gerrard will have been manager for 27 games (that’s 70% of the season), and had one transfer window where he was backed by the owners (PC and his wages, Digne, Chambers).
I have seen very little in anything that has happened to suggest one more transfer window will put us back on track under his management. If anything, the individual standards have dropped and the PPG is slightly worse than under Smith (in PL).
The most damning of all is his constant “we will make changes” statements that then turn out to be bullshit. If he feels he can’t because the squad is so poor don’t fucking say it! Else do what you say man and change it up! As many others have said, the brutal reality is that at the moment, about the only thing to admire is the press conferences - after that the cupboard runs bare.
His points per game is better than Smiths.
Post by: Gary Penrice on April 13, 2022, 08:03:39 PM
Post by: curiousorange on April 13, 2022, 08:06:29 PM
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
What is Lange's role exactly? What does Sporting Director at Villa mean - is it a traditional DoF role or is he, ultimately, just responsible for transfer suggestions & assessments?
No idea on the job spec but I would have thought a more traditional DoF role. Surely should be responsible for ensuring at all levels our teams play a certain way, coaches all buy into it, scouting/recruitment is aligned, manage player contracts etc. Should prevent a situation like what happened us after MON left and minimising the power of the "head coach". Fair enough there might be a certain readjustment needed with a new coach comes in but there's something definitely amiss currently.
Is anyone following Wolves reasonably closely? Bruno Lage didn't torch the playbook when he took over did he? Worked with existing players improving them and maybe a few odd signings.
I don't watch Wolves closely but I'm given to believe they're a bit more possession based these days than they were under Nuno.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 13, 2022, 08:13:55 PM
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
What is Lange's role exactly? What does Sporting Director at Villa mean - is it a traditional DoF role or is he, ultimately, just responsible for transfer suggestions & assessments?
No idea on the job spec but I would have thought a more traditional DoF role. Surely should be responsible for ensuring at all levels our teams play a certain way, coaches all buy into it, scouting/recruitment is aligned, manage player contracts etc. Should prevent a situation like what happened us after MON left and minimising the power of the "head coach". Fair enough there might be a certain readjustment needed with a new coach comes in but there's something definitely amiss currently.
Is anyone following Wolves reasonably closely? Bruno Lage didn't torch the playbook when he took over did he? Worked with existing players improving them and maybe a few odd signings.
I don't watch Wolves closely but I'm given to believe they're a bit more possession based these days than they were under Nuno.
Also we probably dont like to admit this, but are Coady and Boli worse than Mings and Konsa, is Dendonker worse than Luiz, Neves or McGinn, and semi fit Himinez or Watkins, Podence or Bailey.
Not saying Lage hasnt done well, but maybe we’ve had a propensity to over rate some of our players in comparison to some players of other teams.
Post by: curiousorange on April 13, 2022, 08:23:05 PM
The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
What is Lange's role exactly? What does Sporting Director at Villa mean - is it a traditional DoF role or is he, ultimately, just responsible for transfer suggestions & assessments?
No idea on the job spec but I would have thought a more traditional DoF role. Surely should be responsible for ensuring at all levels our teams play a certain way, coaches all buy into it, scouting/recruitment is aligned, manage player contracts etc. Should prevent a situation like what happened us after MON left and minimising the power of the "head coach". Fair enough there might be a certain readjustment needed with a new coach comes in but there's something definitely amiss currently.
Is anyone following Wolves reasonably closely? Bruno Lage didn't torch the playbook when he took over did he? Worked with existing players improving them and maybe a few odd signings.
I don't watch Wolves closely but I'm given to believe they're a bit more possession based these days than they were under Nuno.
Also we probably dont like to admit this, but are Coady and Boli worse than Mings and Konsa, is Dendonker worse than Luiz, Neves or McGinn, and semi fit Himinez or Watkins, Podence or Bailey.
Not saying Lage hasnt done well, but maybe we’ve had a propensity to over rate some of our players in comparison to some players of other teams.
I think the linchpin of Wolves' consolidation has been Moutinho. Brilliant player. And much as it pains me, Neves is excellent too. Not as good as Grealish was for us, but much better than anybody we have other than Coutinho.
Post by: Beard82 on April 13, 2022, 08:54:42 PM
Like you say - there squad is at least good as ares - but probably better balanced.The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
What is Lange's role exactly? What does Sporting Director at Villa mean - is it a traditional DoF role or is he, ultimately, just responsible for transfer suggestions & assessments?
No idea on the job spec but I would have thought a more traditional DoF role. Surely should be responsible for ensuring at all levels our teams play a certain way, coaches all buy into it, scouting/recruitment is aligned, manage player contracts etc. Should prevent a situation like what happened us after MON left and minimising the power of the "head coach". Fair enough there might be a certain readjustment needed with a new coach comes in but there's something definitely amiss currently.
Is anyone following Wolves reasonably closely? Bruno Lage didn't torch the playbook when he took over did he? Worked with existing players improving them and maybe a few odd signings.
I don't watch Wolves closely but I'm given to believe they're a bit more possession based these days than they were under Nuno.
Also we probably dont like to admit this, but are Coady and Boli worse than Mings and Konsa, is Dendonker worse than Luiz, Neves or McGinn, and semi fit Himinez or Watkins, Podence or Bailey.
Not saying Lage hasnt done well, but maybe we’ve had a propensity to over rate some of our players in comparison to some players of other teams.
I feel dirty
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 13, 2022, 09:13:49 PM
By May 15th, Gerrard will have been manager for 27 games (that’s 70% of the season), and had one transfer window where he was backed by the owners (PC and his wages, Digne, Chambers).
I have seen very little in anything that has happened to suggest one more transfer window will put us back on track under his management. If anything, the individual standards have dropped and the PPG is slightly worse than under Smith (in PL).
The most damning of all is his constant “we will make changes” statements that then turn out to be bullshit. If he feels he can’t because the squad is so poor don’t fucking say it! Else do what you say man and change it up! As many others have said, the brutal reality is that at the moment, about the only thing to admire is the press conferences - after that the cupboard runs bare.
His points per game is better than Smiths.
Over what period are you comparing? And what are the respective figures?
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 13, 2022, 09:26:41 PM
Like you say - there squad is at least good as ares - but probably better balanced.The club seem set to bet the farm on another big overhaul of the squad this summer that the new structure with a DoF was meant to prevent.
What is Lange's role exactly? What does Sporting Director at Villa mean - is it a traditional DoF role or is he, ultimately, just responsible for transfer suggestions & assessments?
No idea on the job spec but I would have thought a more traditional DoF role. Surely should be responsible for ensuring at all levels our teams play a certain way, coaches all buy into it, scouting/recruitment is aligned, manage player contracts etc. Should prevent a situation like what happened us after MON left and minimising the power of the "head coach". Fair enough there might be a certain readjustment needed with a new coach comes in but there's something definitely amiss currently.
Is anyone following Wolves reasonably closely? Bruno Lage didn't torch the playbook when he took over did he? Worked with existing players improving them and maybe a few odd signings.
I don't watch Wolves closely but I'm given to believe they're a bit more possession based these days than they were under Nuno.
Also we probably dont like to admit this, but are Coady and Boli worse than Mings and Konsa, is Dendonker worse than Luiz, Neves or McGinn, and semi fit Himinez or Watkins, Podence or Bailey.
Not saying Lage hasnt done well, but maybe we’ve had a propensity to over rate some of our players in comparison to some players of other teams.
I feel dirty
Indeed, i had a moment of weakness!!
Post by: Ads on April 13, 2022, 09:34:05 PM
By May 15th, Gerrard will have been manager for 27 games (that’s 70% of the season), and had one transfer window where he was backed by the owners (PC and his wages, Digne, Chambers).
I have seen very little in anything that has happened to suggest one more transfer window will put us back on track under his management. If anything, the individual standards have dropped and the PPG is slightly worse than under Smith (in PL).
The most damning of all is his constant “we will make changes” statements that then turn out to be bullshit. If he feels he can’t because the squad is so poor don’t fucking say it! Else do what you say man and change it up! As many others have said, the brutal reality is that at the moment, about the only thing to admire is the press conferences - after that the cupboard runs bare.
His points per game is better than Smiths.
Over what period are you comparing? And what are the respective figures?
This season. Under Smith we had relegation form, under Gerrard, midtable.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 13, 2022, 09:46:36 PM
By May 15th, Gerrard will have been manager for 27 games (that’s 70% of the season), and had one transfer window where he was backed by the owners (PC and his wages, Digne, Chambers).
I have seen very little in anything that has happened to suggest one more transfer window will put us back on track under his management. If anything, the individual standards have dropped and the PPG is slightly worse than under Smith (in PL).
The most damning of all is his constant “we will make changes” statements that then turn out to be bullshit. If he feels he can’t because the squad is so poor don’t fucking say it! Else do what you say man and change it up! As many others have said, the brutal reality is that at the moment, about the only thing to admire is the press conferences - after that the cupboard runs bare.
His points per game is better than Smiths.
Over what period are you comparing? And what are the respective figures?
This season. Under Smith we had relegation form, under Gerrard, midtable.
Smith’s performance this season got him the sack. So that’s not a great benchmark for success. It also looks like Smith has a better points per match overall than Gerrard.
Post by: itmustbe_it is! on April 13, 2022, 10:13:03 PM
Post by: TelfordVilla on April 13, 2022, 10:14:17 PM
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 13, 2022, 10:19:28 PM
It wasn't Smiths performances that got him sacked. It was the performances of the players he picked. Some were still unfit due to injury or covid but had to be picked. Smith was trying to integrate Ings into the side but everything he tried failed. Ultimately Smith took the fall for the failings of the players. Is it not Gerrards turn to take the fall if we lose our remaining fixtures?
Smith did seem to change his approach as well. Weird long throws with Matty Cash running from one side of the pitch to the other and loads of pissing about with the ball amongst the defence. He seemed to have lost his way to a large extent. He deserved the heave ho when he got it. With thanks for the good times of course.
Post by: Ads on April 13, 2022, 10:50:08 PM
By May 15th, Gerrard will have been manager for 27 games (that’s 70% of the season), and had one transfer window where he was backed by the owners (PC and his wages, Digne, Chambers).
I have seen very little in anything that has happened to suggest one more transfer window will put us back on track under his management. If anything, the individual standards have dropped and the PPG is slightly worse than under Smith (in PL).
The most damning of all is his constant “we will make changes” statements that then turn out to be bullshit. If he feels he can’t because the squad is so poor don’t fucking say it! Else do what you say man and change it up! As many others have said, the brutal reality is that at the moment, about the only thing to admire is the press conferences - after that the cupboard runs bare.
His points per game is better than Smiths.
Over what period are you comparing? And what are the respective figures?
This season. Under Smith we had relegation form, under Gerrard, midtable.
Smith’s performance this season got him the sack. So that’s not a great benchmark for success. It also looks like Smith has a better points per match overall than Gerrard.
Well he had 3 years and spent a portion in the 2nd division, so, yeah, obviously.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 13, 2022, 10:51:59 PM
Which is a sackable offence for some strangely.By May 15th, Gerrard will have been manager for 27 games (that’s 70% of the season), and had one transfer window where he was backed by the owners (PC and his wages, Digne, Chambers).
I have seen very little in anything that has happened to suggest one more transfer window will put us back on track under his management. If anything, the individual standards have dropped and the PPG is slightly worse than under Smith (in PL).
The most damning of all is his constant “we will make changes” statements that then turn out to be bullshit. If he feels he can’t because the squad is so poor don’t fucking say it! Else do what you say man and change it up! As many others have said, the brutal reality is that at the moment, about the only thing to admire is the press conferences - after that the cupboard runs bare.
His points per game is better than Smiths.
Over what period are you comparing? And what are the respective figures?
This season. Under Smith we had relegation form, under Gerrard, midtable.
Post by: Ads on April 13, 2022, 10:55:07 PM
He's getting the summer and getting backed.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 12:13:34 AM
Post by: eamonn on April 14, 2022, 01:24:42 AM
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 14, 2022, 03:01:39 AM
From people who didn't want him to have the job, haven't supported him in the job and are now largely making noise because we're being very iffy of late, having recently been very good. With some iffy before. Then indifferent. All very wild midtable shenanigans.
A lot of people who very stridently argued for patience with Smith, through all the ups and down, refuse to extend any at all to Gerrard. It seems quite personal which I don't get.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 14, 2022, 07:02:15 AM
Post by: Meanwood Villa on April 14, 2022, 07:24:39 AM
From people who didn't want him to have the job, haven't supported him in the job and are now largely making noise because we're being very iffy of late, having recently been very good. With some iffy before. Then indifferent. All very wild midtable shenanigans.
A lot of people who very stridently argued for patience with Smith, through all the ups and down, refuse to extend any at all to Gerrard. It seems quite personal which I don't get.
It is personal. Dean had credit in the bank on and off the pitch. Most fans have very recent memories of Gerrard being a petulant shithouse of an opponent. Patience was always likely to be thin on the ground
Post by: Villan82 on April 14, 2022, 07:54:16 AM
From people who didn't want him to have the job, haven't supported him in the job and are now largely making noise because we're being very iffy of late, having recently been very good. With some iffy before. Then indifferent. All very wild midtable shenanigans.
A lot of people who very stridently argued for patience with Smith, through all the ups and down, refuse to extend any at all to Gerrard. It seems quite personal which I don't get.
Agree. It is ridiculous. Things have been more up and down than I expected but SG has mostly done OK since coming in.
The comment about Smith is bang on. I can't believe how divided people are post Smith. It's almost like taking their anger out about the sacking by criticising SG excessively.
Post by: brian green on April 14, 2022, 08:03:22 AM
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 08:12:38 AM
Post by: Vegas on April 14, 2022, 08:12:56 AM
From people who didn't want him to have the job, haven't supported him in the job and are now largely making noise because we're being very iffy of late, having recently been very good. With some iffy before. Then indifferent. All very wild midtable shenanigans.
A lot of people who very stridently argued for patience with Smith, through all the ups and down, refuse to extend any at all to Gerrard. It seems quite personal which I don't get.
But there are also people in the opposite camp, who were convinced the only way forward was sacking Smith, and are also convinced that they’ve seen massive improvements under Gerrard.
By the way I wanted Smith to stay and also think it’s ridiculous to be Gerrard out at this stage
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 14, 2022, 08:14:03 AM
Plus the fact that Gerrard is only using us as a stepping stone. We have been put in a lose lose situation by Purslow wanking the process of selecting a new manager to get his choice one big step nearer the management of his favourite team. We are truly between a rock and a hard place. If Gerrard is a nothing manager Villa plummet. If he is a success he departs. What sort of a plan for the future is that?I don't get the stepping stone thing.
Which player or manager ultimately isn't using their club as one?
If a bigger and better option in their view comes along then who wouldn't take it?
Why is it fine for Dean Smith to do it to Brentford so he can come to us but Gerrard is a shithouse if Liverpool come calling one day?
Post by: Chris Smith on April 14, 2022, 08:15:52 AM
From people who didn't want him to have the job, haven't supported him in the job and are now largely making noise because we're being very iffy of late, having recently been very good. With some iffy before. Then indifferent. All very wild midtable shenanigans.
He's getting the summer and getting backed.
Or put it another way, those who were most vociferous about the need for Smith to go are refusing to acknowledge any potential shortcomings with Gerrard.
Neither view tell the whole truth.
Your last line though is clearly the reality of the situation. My heart hopes he’s massively successful but it’s having a problem convincing my brain of how likely that is.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 14, 2022, 08:20:45 AM
Plus the fact that Gerrard is only using us as a stepping stone. We have been put in a lose lose situation by Purslow wanking the process of selecting a new manager to get his choice one big step nearer the management of his favourite team. We are truly between a rock and a hard place. If Gerrard is a nothing manager Villa plummet. If he is a success he departs. What sort of a plan for the future is that?I don't get the stepping stone thing.
Which player or manager ultimately isn't using their club as one?
If a bigger and better option in their view comes along then who wouldn't take it?
Why is it fine for Dean Smith to do it to Brentford so he can come to us but Gerrard is a shithouse if Liverpool come calling one day?
I agree with Vegas in that I wanted Smith to stay but while still unimpressed by Gerrard I think getting rid now would be daft.
I do think the stepping stone argument here is a bit disingenuous, though. Yes, just about everyone in football sees just about every move as a potential way of getting an even bigger club, but Gerrard's appointment was generally regarded as the start of his trial for Liverpool. It's the perception that he's in a way only on loan to us as a part of his grand career plan that grates with me.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 14, 2022, 08:22:34 AM
I thought Smith should go and I can see the potential shortcomings of Gerrard.From people who didn't want him to have the job, haven't supported him in the job and are now largely making noise because we're being very iffy of late, having recently been very good. With some iffy before. Then indifferent. All very wild midtable shenanigans.
He's getting the summer and getting backed.
Or put it another way, those who were most vociferous about the need for Smith to go are refusing to acknowledge any potential shortcomings with Gerrard.
Neither view tell the whole truth.
Your last line though is clearly the reality of the situation. My heart hopes he’s massively successful but it’s having a problem convincing my brain of how likely that is.
I really can not see any alternative to backing him, but I hope there is a long term strategy behind the signings we make.
Post by: brian green on April 14, 2022, 08:28:20 AM
Post by: Clampy on April 14, 2022, 08:33:56 AM
The last thing you wanted was for him to be hounded out of Villa Park.
The jury is out on Gerrard so far for me. Mixed in with some piss poor displays have been encouraging glimpses of what could be a very good side.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 14, 2022, 08:38:16 AM
I once supplemented my income as an odds setter for one of the big bookmakers. My cold hard take on the probability is that Gerrard will not finish up with Liverpool or us. When Klopp goes other more prominent names than Gerrard will go into the Anfield hat. When Purslow retires the love in with Gerrard will be viewed by more critical eyes at Villa Park and the whole souffle concocted by Purslow will go in the bin.Arsenals rise then fall coincided with the stewardship of David Dein and his subsequent departure.
There is no evidence to suggest that we have a CEO of any where near his caliber and without one we are destined to under achieve.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 09:12:47 AM
I do think the stepping stone argument here is a bit disingenuous, though. Yes, just about everyone in football sees just about every move as a potential way of getting an even bigger club, but Gerrard's appointment was generally regarded as the start of his trial for Liverpool. It's the perception that he's in a way only on loan to us as a part of his grand career plan that grates with me.
It was just an obvious media angle, that neither the club or Gerrard could do anything about. Gerrard conducted himself really well on the trip to Anfield, I don't really understand why Villa fans really concern themselves with it.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 09:15:38 AM
Or put it another way, those who were most vociferous about the need for Smith to go are refusing to acknowledge any potential shortcomings with Gerrard.
Name one person who's done that. He's a young inexperienced manager, who is bound to make mistakes. His perseverance with Ings and Watkins up front is a real head scratcher and his subs are usually too late and ineffective. Calls for him to be sacked at this early stage are ridiculous though.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 14, 2022, 09:20:46 AM
I would say that Gerrard is going to have to be with us for a long and successful time for him to be even considered as a replacement for Klopp. He's light years away from one of the top jobs at the moment.Plus the fact that Gerrard is only using us as a stepping stone. We have been put in a lose lose situation by Purslow wanking the process of selecting a new manager to get his choice one big step nearer the management of his favourite team. We are truly between a rock and a hard place. If Gerrard is a nothing manager Villa plummet. If he is a success he departs. What sort of a plan for the future is that?I don't get the stepping stone thing.
Which player or manager ultimately isn't using their club as one?
If a bigger and better option in their view comes along then who wouldn't take it?
Why is it fine for Dean Smith to do it to Brentford so he can come to us but Gerrard is a shithouse if Liverpool come calling one day?
I agree with Vegas in that I wanted Smith to stay but while still unimpressed by Gerrard I think getting rid now would be daft.
I do think the stepping stone argument here is a bit disingenuous, though. Yes, just about everyone in football sees just about every move as a potential way of getting an even bigger club, but Gerrard's appointment was generally regarded as the start of his trial for Liverpool. It's the perception that he's in a way only on loan to us as a part of his grand career plan that grates with me.
His ultimate aim is surely to manage his boyhood club but if he's going to be bringing success the likes of which we've not seen for a while for that to happen then I'm happy.with that.
On the flip side this time next year we might be trying to offload
players from another failed project.
Who knows!
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 14, 2022, 09:25:20 AM
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 14, 2022, 09:45:26 AM
But I'm certainly not looking that far ahead.
Anybody who plays or manages us and is a success will attract interest from so called bigger clubs.
Isn't employing someone like Gerrard making that less likely?
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 14, 2022, 09:53:50 AM
You're happy with us being perceived by the world as Liverpool's training ground? And with our manager effectively being bigger than the club?I see it as synergistic, if it works.
The problem is not if he brings success, its if he brings failure.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 14, 2022, 09:56:45 AM
We might get the pick of Europe's elite managers.
Lots of ifs and buts there I know but I like to dream!
Post by: chrisw1 on April 14, 2022, 10:02:05 AM
Plus the fact that Gerrard is only using us as a stepping stone. We have been put in a lose lose situation by Purslow wanking the process of selecting a new manager to get his choice one big step nearer the management of his favourite team. We are truly between a rock and a hard place. If Gerrard is a nothing manager Villa plummet. If he is a success he departs. What sort of a plan for the future is that?Klopp is 54. He seems to love it at Liverpool and is doing a brilliant job. I presume he wants to continue to build that legacy. I'm not too anxious about our manager becoming so successful that he may leave at some point in the future given it seems Klopp will be going nowhere soon.
I'm more anxious about whether he has the ability to take us to the next level. I'm also a bit concerened that we're about to 'do an Everton' and I'm worried whether he is the right horse to be making that bet on.
Theres quite a lot I actually like about Gerrard and am undecided which way it will go. I certainly think he should have done better since he came in, but acknowledge he's got a squad without a natural DM which makes implementing any change in tactics very difficult. He's also got two off form strikers who can't hit a barn door at the moment and I'm not sure he can be blamed for the amout of sitters we're missing at the moment or the individual errors at the back which seem to be crucifying us.
I guess I'm happy to wait and see how things go for now. It's a critical 12 months for the club and if we're going big I would have preferred it to have been under Poch or some other unattainable manager, but that was never going to happen. So lets see what happens, but one thing is for sure I wont be happy if we splurge loads of money on Suarez and other ex Liverpool has beens.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 14, 2022, 10:02:49 AM
Well put.You're happy with us being perceived by the world as Liverpool's training ground? And with our manager effectively being bigger than the club?I see it as synergistic, if it works.
The problem is not if he brings success, its if he brings failure.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 10:08:18 AM
We'll see what he's about next year when he's had the summer to bring some of his own players in.
Post by: Beard82 on April 14, 2022, 10:09:07 AM
I didn’t want smith to go but reluctantly accepted it. We weren’t in relegation form as such at any point this season as we have never been in the zone.
I think it was clear the board had lost faith in him - and I wonder if some of the back room changes were forced on him to an extent
My biggest concern isn’t so much about SG but about the fact the club seems to have changed strategy for a manager who isn’t proven and it feels a risk that didn’t need to be taken. I worry a great crop of young players will go because they don’t get a chance
I also worry that we’ll struggle with a cheque approach if we finish 14th or 15th.
Personally I don’t think our players are that bad - and a lot are playing there worst football for us.
As we all know he’ll get the summer, and get backed but I worry in the long term it could do more harm then good if we’re not smart enough with the signings. That said - Jans business was good so hopefully my fears are baseless
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 10:16:42 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 14, 2022, 10:20:16 AM
Post by: algy on April 14, 2022, 10:35:33 AM
We haven't had a manager stay in the job for more than four years since Ron Saunders and it's nearly fifty years since he was appointed and 40 years since he left. Gerrard would really have to go some to be considered good enough for Liverpool in that time, we'd probably need to see top 8 next year, top 6 the year after and then Champions League after that. IF at that point there was a vacancy at Liverpool, and IF he left, which top manager wouldn't want to come to Villa to manage a Champions League team that would have to have been backed by the owners to the absolute hilt?Absolutely.
We'll see what he's about next year when he's had the summer to bring some of his own players in.
There's a lot of talk about Gerrard using us as a stepping stone, but little about us doing the same thing with him. Right now, he's able to attract players like Coutinho who probably wouldn't come to us if it wasn't for the Gerrard factor. I see it that in 2/3 seasons time, we're going to assess Gerrard's reign and see if he's still the right person to take us forward. I've a strong suspicion that's what happened with Smith-Terry-O'Kelly last summer. Smith, with 1 year left, was deemed to not be what we needed to challenge for the top 8, and so Terry & ROK were effectively given the boot and Smith left as caretaker manager for the season, although a drop in performances meant he didn't make it that far.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 14, 2022, 10:40:57 AM
I agree with Risso. Bear in mind he's the hardest taskmaster on here when it comes to the manager's and players' performance.There are some interesting views on the manager on here.
It's almost as if the more successful he could be the more unhappy some supporters will be because he'll be leaving for Liverpool anyway.
Like so many others he might fail but there is also the possibility that he'd leave Villa in a much stronger position than when he arrived.
And be a more attractive proposition for bigger profile managers.
Post by: Mister E on April 14, 2022, 11:10:48 AM
... I've a strong suspicion that's what happened with Smith-Terry-O'Kelly last summer. Smith, with 1 year left, was deemed to not be what we needed to challenge for the top 8, and so Terry & ROK were effectively given the boot and Smith left as caretaker manager for the season, although a drop in performances meant he didn't make it that far.Haven't seen it put quite that way before, algy. Does your strong suspicion have substance or is it just your opinion?
Post by: Beard82 on April 14, 2022, 11:24:41 AM
Completely guessing - but I think there may be something in it - I think the back room... I've a strong suspicion that's what happened with Smith-Terry-O'Kelly last summer. Smith, with 1 year left, was deemed to not be what we needed to challenge for the top 8, and so Terry & ROK were effectively given the boot and Smith left as caretaker manager for the season, although a drop in performances meant he didn't make it that far.Haven't seen it put quite that way before, algy. Does your strong suspicion have substance or is it just your opinion?
Changes could have been forced on him - as they don’t really make sense otherwise.
I think also some of the half hearted bids for people like JWP felt they might have gone all in on them if they were more convinced on the manager
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 11:27:08 AM
I think also some of the half hearted bids for people like JWP felt they might have gone all in on them if they were more convinced on the manager
That's a possiblity but then we had a similar half-arsed bid for Bissouma as well.
Post by: paul_e on April 14, 2022, 11:34:51 AM
We haven't had a manager stay in the job for more than four years since Ron Saunders and it's nearly fifty years since he was appointed and 40 years since he left. Gerrard would really have to go some to be considered good enough for Liverpool in that time, we'd probably need to see top 8 next year, top 6 the year after and then Champions League after that. IF at that point there was a vacancy at Liverpool, and IF he left, which top manager wouldn't want to come to Villa to manage a Champions League team that would have to have been backed by the owners to the absolute hilt?Absolutely.
We'll see what he's about next year when he's had the summer to bring some of his own players in.
There's a lot of talk about Gerrard using us as a stepping stone, but little about us doing the same thing with him. Right now, he's able to attract players like Coutinho who probably wouldn't come to us if it wasn't for the Gerrard factor. I see it that in 2/3 seasons time, we're going to assess Gerrard's reign and see if he's still the right person to take us forward. I've a strong suspicion that's what happened with Smith-Terry-O'Kelly last summer. Smith, with 1 year left, was deemed to not be what we needed to challenge for the top 8, and so Terry & ROK were effectively given the boot and Smith left as caretaker manager for the season, although a drop in performances meant he didn't make it that far.
I think Smith, rightly or wrongly, took the blame for us having an abysmal summer, the state of the team on the first weekend against watford was shameful and we've never really recovered from that. The Grealish sideshow all summer, in the end, probably did more damage to us than simply losing him as a player. Add on the changes in coaching and Smith appearing to let the "can't win without Jack" jibes get to him to the point where he abandoned almost everything that had been good about us and we were in a mess.
On Gerrard I think a pre-season is massively important to get players working as you want them too, doing it during the season is so much harder because of fixture pile-up and fatigue. On that basis I don't like sacking managers without them having had that chance. I think we're all disappointed by how things have gone this year after it looking like we'd be pushing for top 8 this time last year but we need to take a step back and see if going through another change in coaching and management 8 months later is sensible. I keep coming back to the fact that I can see what we're trying to do even though it's not quite working as we want, if we can cut down the individual errors at the back (and mitigate for them with an extra layer of defence in front) I don't think adding 15-20 points on the total next year is out of the question, on the back of 3-4 signings.
In the meantime I'd like to see if the return of Nakamba (who is a very limited version of the player I want in there) shows how big a difference to this team that player can make.
Post by: Beard82 on April 14, 2022, 11:37:59 AM
Yeah but I think that might have been more strategic - in that they know his value is dropping all the time - and as we were not going down or getting into Europe they thought they better off waiting for the summer
I think also some of the half hearted bids for people like JWP felt they might have gone all in on them if they were more convinced on the manager
That's a possiblity but then we had a similar half-arsed bid for Bissouma as well.
Whether that works out or not remains to be seen
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 11:38:06 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 14, 2022, 11:38:07 AM
On Gerrard I think a pre-season is massively important to get players working as you want them too, doing it during the season is so much harder because of fixture pile-up and fatigue. On that basis I don't like sacking managers without them having had that chance. I think we're all disappointed by how things have gone this year after it looking like we'd be pushing for top 8 this time last year but we need to take a step back and see if going through another change in coaching and management 8 months later is sensible. I keep coming back to the fact that I can see what we're trying to do even though it's not quite working as we want, if we can cut down the individual errors at the back (and mitigate for them with an extra layer of defence in front) I don't think adding 15-20 points on the total next year is out of the question, on the back of 3-4 signings.
In the meantime I'd like to see if the return of Nakamba (who is a very limited version of the player I want in there) shows how big a difference to this team that player can make.
I agree with pretty much all of this. Particularly interested in how we get on with Marvellous back after he regains match fitness.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 11:41:54 AM
I agree with pretty much all of this. Particularly interested in how we get on with Marvellous back after he regains match fitness.
Looks like there's a behind closed doors friendly with Brentford tomorrow so hopefully he'll play most of that.
Post by: TonyD on April 14, 2022, 11:50:41 AM
Something doesn’t feel right about the club. It feels less our club.
Post by: murgsy on April 14, 2022, 11:59:03 AM
The fact that he has exposed our CBs through FBs pushing up and virtually no proper DCM - shows some naivete. As does playing both strikers - ineffectively. So I have growing doubts about his tactical nous - but still think he deserves a good 6-9 months. Unless we are sinking...
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 12:02:28 PM
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 14, 2022, 12:49:26 PM
I re-watched the first half of the Spurs game yesterday, and we really were utterly dominant and played some excellent football. I was at the game with two Spurs-supporting clients and even though they were 1-0 up, they were watching that half through their fingers.My Spurs supporting mate reckons we should have been 4-1 up at half time, he's been following them for 50+ years.
Post by: Billy Walker on April 14, 2022, 01:21:44 PM
I agree with Risso. Bear in mind he's the hardest taskmaster on here when it comes to the manager's and players' performance.There are some interesting views on the manager on here.
It's almost as if the more successful he could be the more unhappy some supporters will be because he'll be leaving for Liverpool anyway.
Like so many others he might fail but there is also the possibility that he'd leave Villa in a much stronger position than when he arrived.
And be a more attractive proposition for bigger profile managers.
The moment he leaves us for Liverpool (should it ever happen) will be the moment Villa and Liverpool are heading in opposite directions (Villa upwards!).
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 14, 2022, 02:30:37 PM
Favourite band: Colddplay. This ought to settle the question for all of us.
&feature=youtu.be
Post by: Clampy on April 14, 2022, 03:14:36 PM
He's got to go.
Favourite band: Colddplay. This ought to settle the question for all of us.&feature=youtu.be
Now calm down, Don't Panic.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 14, 2022, 03:18:49 PM
He's got to go.
Favourite band: Colddplay. This ought to settle the question for all of us.
I'll get concerned if he signs Chris Martin from Bristol City.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 14, 2022, 03:21:52 PM
Post by: AV82EC on April 14, 2022, 03:23:00 PM
I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
I think we’re all just relieved he didn’t say “The Irish Band”.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 14, 2022, 03:31:20 PM
He's got to go.Shocker.
Favourite band: Colddplay. This ought to settle the question for all of us.&feature=youtu.be
Post by: cdward on April 14, 2022, 04:03:22 PM
For me that is what i realistically expect from Gerrard.
That in 3 seasons or so (typical life expectancy for a Villa manager), we have improved our reputation because of what he has accomplished.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on April 14, 2022, 04:05:51 PM
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 04:08:56 PM
I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
I think we’re all just relieved he didn’t say “The Irish Band”.
I'm just going to leave this here and back away slowly...
https://www.avfc.co.uk/News/2018/10/11/5-things-to-know-about-dean-smith
Post by: paul_e on April 14, 2022, 04:09:12 PM
He took over a team in 19th place with 10 points from 11 games and probably the most expensive squad ever in the championship and left us in in 13th place, with 15pouints from 11 games but with 1 fit centre half and a squad that was mostly coming up to be out of contract at the end of that season. I'd say he left us roughly where he found us, having been part of a group that took us to the brink of administration.
Post by: Clampy on April 14, 2022, 04:11:44 PM
I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
I think we’re all just relieved he didn’t say “The Irish Band”.
Or 'The Best of The Beatles'.
Post by: eamonn on April 14, 2022, 04:33:43 PM
I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
Was really hoping he'd surprise me and wax lyrical about the Sultans of Ping FC.
Post by: algy on April 14, 2022, 04:42:43 PM
When I was living in Liverpool, the bloke who lived next to me once told me "I love Stevie Wonder, I'm a big fan. I've got all his greatest hits on CD".I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
I think we’re all just relieved he didn’t say “The Irish Band”.
Or 'The Best of The Beatles'.
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 14, 2022, 04:56:28 PM
He's got to go.
Favourite band: Colddplay. This ought to settle the question for all of us.&feature=youtu.be
Now calm down, Don't Panic.
Enough to send a Shiver down your spine.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 05:11:45 PM
I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
Was really hoping he'd surprise me and wax lyrical about the Sultans of Ping FC.
Thumping at the disco...
Post by: Clampy on April 14, 2022, 05:26:39 PM
I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
Was really hoping he'd surprise me and wax lyrical about the Sultans of Ping FC.
Thumping at the disco...
Wait a minute, wheres me Suarez?
And it's 'Dancing at the Disco'. Stop getting Sultans of Ping Wrong.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 05:33:30 PM
I'm crestfallen at the lack of righteous fury on display so far. This brazen admission of his is heinous.
Was really hoping he'd surprise me and wax lyrical about the Sultans of Ping FC.
Thumping at the disco...
Wait a minute, wheres me Suarez?
And it's 'Dancing at the Disco'. Stop getting Sultans of Ping Wrong.
I know. But then I couldn't have got a slight joke in about Gerrard smacking somebody in a Southport nightclub so it wouldn't have made sense.
Post by: eamonn on April 14, 2022, 05:52:52 PM
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 05:59:39 PM
Their later single Michiko is a lost classic. I believe it was Stanley Victor Collymore's favourite song of 1993 (the band's singer was a huge Forest fan, they may have met).
Not a lost classic in my house, they were one of my favourite bands of my university years, along with the Franks.
Post by: gpbarr on April 14, 2022, 07:54:43 PM
I re-watched the first half of the Spurs game yesterday, and we really were utterly dominant and played some excellent football. I was at the game with two Spurs-supporting clients and even though they were 1-0 up, they were watching that half through their fingers.
Don’t understand this. Everyone knows the most successful teams win when playing badly (like Spurs in the first half) whereas the least successful lose when playing well.
We need to win first, then bring the style after. Gerrard understands this.
He isn’t delivering it yet.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 08:05:57 PM
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 08:09:14 PM
Yes, he probably is. He doesn't deserve it though based on what he has "achieved" at Villa.
No doubt you were arguing for Smith to not be backed in January 2019 as he didn't deserve it either and you were calling for his head after a 3-0 abomination at Wigan. Then the continuation of a dreadful run into February just put the cherry on your Smith out cake didn't it.
Didn't it?
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 08:15:39 PM
As for now, we aren't doing well enough, and nothing on Gerrwood's failed managerial CV suggests we will get any better. I was hoping I'd be proven wrong, but, sadly, it remains a pathetic, starstruck appointment based entirely on his name and playing career.
The way to fix the mistake isn't to throw hundreds of millions at it, buying players that his October/November replacement won't necessarily want, it's to get rid of him this summer and bring in an actual manager. And get rid of Purslow, too.
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
People need to get over their Smith obsession. He's gone. Probably rightly so.
As for now, we aren't doing well enough, and nothing on Gerrwood's failed managerial CV suggests we will get any better. I was hoping I'd be proven wrong, but, sadly, it remains a pathetic, starstruck appointment based entirely on his name and playing career.
The way to fix the mistake isn't to throw hundreds of millions at it, buying players that his October/November replacement won't necessarily want, it's to get rid of him this summer and bring in an actual manager. And get rid of Purslow, too.
I think your 2nd paragraph probably tells us you're not worth engaging on the point further.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 14, 2022, 08:19:26 PM
People need to get over their Smith obsession. He's gone. Probably rightly so.
As for now, we aren't doing well enough, and nothing on Gerrwood's failed managerial CV suggests we will get any better. I was hoping I'd be proven wrong, but, sadly, it remains a pathetic, starstruck appointment based entirely on his name and playing career.
The way to fix the mistake isn't to throw hundreds of millions at it, buying players that his October/November replacement won't necessarily want, it's to get rid of him this summer and bring in an actual manager. And get rid of Purslow, too.
All of this.
Post by: paul_e on April 14, 2022, 08:24:55 PM
If the performances are there results will follow.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 08:25:59 PM
Personally I'd rather lose playing well than lose looking like we deserved it.
If the performances are there results will follow.
Exactly.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 08:26:31 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 14, 2022, 08:50:08 PM
People need to get over their Smith obsession. He's gone. Probably rightly so.
As for now, we aren't doing well enough, and nothing on Gerrwood's failed managerial CV suggests we will get any better. I was hoping I'd be proven wrong, but, sadly, it remains a pathetic, starstruck appointment based entirely on his name and playing career.
The way to fix the mistake isn't to throw hundreds of millions at it, buying players that his October/November replacement won't necessarily want, it's to get rid of him this summer and bring in an actual manager. And get rid of Purslow, too.
All of this.
It might not work out with Gerrard, but it’s too early to tell and I think it’s odd to state he has a failed managerial CV.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 14, 2022, 08:56:39 PM
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 08:58:17 PM
One trophy from nine with his previous club is not a successful CV in the context of the (new) Old Firm.
Overturning a monopoly where 1 club had a decades head start isn't to be sniffed at.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 14, 2022, 09:02:30 PM
People need to get over their Smith obsession. He's gone. Probably rightly so.
As for now, we aren't doing well enough, and nothing on Gerrwood's failed managerial CV suggests we will get any better. I was hoping I'd be proven wrong, but, sadly, it remains a pathetic, starstruck appointment based entirely on his name and playing career.
The way to fix the mistake isn't to throw hundreds of millions at it, buying players that his October/November replacement won't necessarily want, it's to get rid of him this summer and bring in an actual manager. And get rid of Purslow, too.
I think your 2nd paragraph probably tells us you're not worth engaging on the point further.
To be fair to CD he's been pretty consistent in his criticism of Stevie G. He didn't even change his allegiance from the 'Bully Wee' to the 'Teddy Bears' until after Gerrard had left Ibrox for B6.
Post by: paul_e on April 14, 2022, 09:02:54 PM
One trophy from nine with his previous club is not a successful CV in the context of the (new) Old Firm.
In context i don't think it's that simple, and that's with me thinking he was a very risky appointment.
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 14, 2022, 09:06:18 PM
One trophy from nine with his previous club is not a successful CV in the context of the (new) Old Firm.
Overturning a monopoly where 1 club had a decades head start isn't to be sniffed at.
Quite. Again doesn’t mean he’ll succeed or fail, but saying he has a failed CV is unfair in my view. Also the comparisons with Sherwood are just flawed.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 14, 2022, 09:07:05 PM
Yes I stopped at Gerwood pretty much.People need to get over their Smith obsession. He's gone. Probably rightly so.
As for now, we aren't doing well enough, and nothing on Gerrwood's failed managerial CV suggests we will get any better. I was hoping I'd be proven wrong, but, sadly, it remains a pathetic, starstruck appointment based entirely on his name and playing career.
The way to fix the mistake isn't to throw hundreds of millions at it, buying players that his October/November replacement won't necessarily want, it's to get rid of him this summer and bring in an actual manager. And get rid of Purslow, too.
I think your 2nd paragraph probably tells us you're not worth engaging on the point further.
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 09:09:42 PM
These views have been hard baked in before his appointment.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 14, 2022, 09:16:33 PM
I think its utterly disingenuous to be frank. A very limited number wanted Smith out in January and then February 2019. The same latitude that was applied then isn't applied now and the issue for me is the feigned objectivity of these views.
These views have been hard baked in before his appointment.
I think all this war coverage is overstimulating your imagination.
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 09:20:48 PM
I think its utterly disingenuous to be frank. A very limited number wanted Smith out in January and then February 2019. The same latitude that was applied then isn't applied now and the issue for me is the feigned objectivity of these views.
These views have been hard baked in before his appointment.
I think all this war coverage is overstimulating your imagination.
A compelling argument. I must have imagined so many turning so quickly on Smith.
Post by: boozey182 on April 14, 2022, 09:30:33 PM
I think its utterly disingenuous to be frank. A very limited number wanted Smith out in January and then February 2019. The same latitude that was applied then isn't applied now and the issue for me is the feigned objectivity of these views.
These views have been hard baked in before his appointment.
Could it be slightly less sinister than that? Maybe some people had concerns about Gerrard's appointment before it was made official, and maybe they feel that he hasn't convincingly proved those concerns to be misplaced yet?
To compare to Smith (which we probably shouldn't do anymore as I don't think it really helps the debate) I would have said that the fanbase, on the whole, was much more in favour of the appointment and so we were perhaps a little bit more patient with him as they expected him to come good. It's never nice admitting you've got something wrong!
For me, I was against hiring him, and I haven't been particularly impressed so far, but I think he will prove his worth this summer - as long as things don't get much worse on the pitch between now and then. We need to harvest his name for all it is worth, and then see where we are when the World Cup break starts. If we're not in the top half, I'd get rid. (Obviously earlier if we get off to a really bad start).
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 09:34:57 PM
Post by: gpbarr on April 14, 2022, 09:37:51 PM
People need to get over their Smith obsession. He's gone. Probably rightly so.
As for now, we aren't doing well enough, and nothing on Gerrwood's failed managerial CV suggests we will get any better. I was hoping I'd be proven wrong, but, sadly, it remains a pathetic, starstruck appointment based entirely on his name and playing career.
The way to fix the mistake isn't to throw hundreds of millions at it, buying players that his October/November replacement won't necessarily want, it's to get rid of him this summer and bring in an actual manager. And get rid of Purslow, too.
I think your 2nd paragraph probably tells us you're not worth engaging on the point further.
I think his 2nd paragraph reflects the views of many Villa fans right now. Not yours - and that’s ok - but his opinion is as valid as yours because they are both just that - opinions
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 09:42:50 PM
I'll be delighted and will happily apologise and extol his virtues if he does well.
One thing though, I don't want a single fan who is now coming out with the clichéd "he needs more time" argument to be moaning about how difficult it is to get a top manager in October/November next season if we are looking for one, when we could easily just get rid of the incumbent in May.
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 09:44:02 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 09:49:57 PM
https://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=60477.3550
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 09:54:46 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 14, 2022, 09:58:09 PM
I think its utterly disingenuous to be frank. A very limited number wanted Smith out in January and then February 2019. The same latitude that was applied then isn't applied now and the issue for me is the feigned objectivity of these views.
These views have been hard baked in before his appointment.
Agree with this, it's been apparent for some time now.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 10:00:21 PM
What's your point, apart from proving mine?
We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 10:02:38 PM
What's your point, apart from proving mine?
We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.
I'm asking why your patience is so limited with Gerrard when it wasn't with Smith. You just didn't want him and never will. I don't think there's anything objective in your arguments. The Gerswood use is an example. Its personal, not pragmatic.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 10:11:29 PM
What's your point, apart from proving mine?
We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.
I'm asking why your patience is so limited with Gerrars when it wasn't with Smith. You just didn't want him and never will. I don't think there's any objective in your arguments. The Gerswood use is an example. Its personal, not pragmatic.
I never wanted him for the reasons I have outlined. What has he done to change my mind?
Smith and Gerrard is a false equivalence, we were a second tier club then with much lower expectations. I don't see him as relevant to this conversation, you seemingly do. I can't convince you otherwise so may as well move on from that line of enquiry.
I'm confused as to what people have seen in Gerrard that makes them think he should retain the job that isn't just "he was a great player" or "he should be given longer just because".
Those, or variations thereof, are basically the only pro-Gerrard arguments I'm seeing and neither seem to me to be in any way compelling.
The only positive I can see is that he was probably instrumental in acquiring Coutinho. That's a plus point, definitely. But that really is about it. And I'm increasingly struggling to see us convincing him to stay anyway.
So, basically, convince me. What's good about him? I'm all ears. I'm Andrew Marr.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 14, 2022, 10:13:21 PM
It looked good for a short period but it seems that the high press football was just new manager bounce rather than a style of play as it lasted a really short time. I’d like to see Gerrard get the players he currently has available showing a pattern of play over a 90 minute period, going at it for 90 minutes and getting some wins before the end of the season. I’d like to see him show he has some flexibility in his approach and tactics and the nous to make changes that reap rewards. This would give me some confidence ahead of pre season and transfers.
Good managers are 1) good coaches and 2) work with their team in an astute way in the transfer market. He’s not up to scratch on the first part of the job at present. Not sure on the second part as I like Coutinho and Digne but are we playing better since they joined? Jessie Marsch (wtf?!) has more points per match than Stevie Since they each took over their respective teams, each without a pre season.
There’s a fair bit of ‘Dean Smith got more patience’ going on in this thread. And if he did (which I’m not sure about) then maybe we should compare the league position each manager took over in and the state of the squad each inherited. Worlds apart.
While a few people want him out, others are exaggerating this to set up straw man arguments when Gerrard is criticised for the current s-show. I think most people just want him to do a better job, now.
Maybe some people just have lower standards?
Post by: Beard82 on April 14, 2022, 10:13:54 PM
Spurs first half - and the three game run - we haven’t really played well this year. I think we’re about 15th since the turn of the year. Odd spells here and there in most of the games - but I think he’s trying to play the wrong formation with the players he has available.Personally I'd rather lose playing well than lose looking like we deserved it
If the performances are there results will follow.
Exactly.
You can see what he’s trying to do - but personally I would like to see him show more signs of learning.
As I say - I’m still In but I think everyone would feel a lot better if we could get 3 or 4 wins in the last 7 games
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
What's your point, apart from proving mine?
We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.
I'm asking why your patience is so limited with Gerrars when it wasn't with Smith. You just didn't want him and never will. I don't think there's any objective in your arguments. The Gerswood use is an example. Its personal, not pragmatic.
I never wanted him for the reasons I have outlined. What has he done to change my mind?
Smith and Gerrard is a false equivalence, we were a second tier club then with much lower expectations. I don't see him as relevant to this conversation, you seemingly do. I can't convince you otherwise so may as well move on from that line of enquiry.
I'm confused as to what people have seen in Gerrard that makes them think he should retain the job that isn't just "he was a great player" or "he should be given longer just because".
Those, or variations thereof, are basically the only pro-Gerrard arguments I'm seeing and neither seem to me to be in any way compelling.
The only positive I can see is that he was probably instrumental in acquiring Coutinho. That's a plus point, definitely. But that really is about it. And I'm increasingly struggling to see us convincing him to stay anyway.
So, basically, convince me. What's good about him? I'm all ears. I'm Andrew Marr.
A false equivalence? Gerswood. A lot of deflection. It's fine to hold your opinion, just don't pretend it's evidence based.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 10:31:35 PM
If not obsessing over his predecessor is "deflection", then I'll deflect away.
Post by: Beard82 on April 14, 2022, 10:37:48 PM
The bar has been set by CP that we want year on year progression - which would be 10th or above. We probably won’t achieve that, we certainly won’t get as many points as last season.
There’s a reasonable chance that we could finish 13th or 14th which isn’t great. His form over the last 10 games has been fairly similar to the first 10 games of the season. But he has had a fitter squad plus a couple of world class additions.
So I think it is perfectly ok to question him, particularly if you had reservations in the first place. There is a massive frustration for a lot of fans me included that we have gone backwards this season.
He’ll get a pre season and will be backed - And hopefully that will be all he needed to kick on. But I think either way your view is, is pretty legitimate.
Hopefully his name will help us attract players we wouldn’t have been able to as a bottom middle half team.
Hopefully he can get the balance right. I have been very critical - but that’s because it feels like we may have missed another big chance to regain our love at the top table.
It’s not personal against him - I actually have grown to like him despite myself, and I hope he does well but I think it’s ok to be disappointed about this season and with all the key players within it
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 10:39:24 PM
I dont like him sticking with out of form players, but I don't think he rates the squad. I don't rate our spine and I have the ability of hindsight to admit I was wrong about the summer recruitment, it left us deficient in a key area we've been lacking for a few seasons.
I really like the way we play when we click. That 3 game run was very good, the 3 games thereafter were frustrating. We dont grind draws, a hangover from Smith too. Sours was probably one of the oddest games I've ever seen.
I think there's more structure to our play now from the jumbled mess that we ended with (the positions away at Southampton were grim). I think the system whether it's 4312 we've played of late or 4321 is wholly dependent on both Cash and Digne being fit. He doesn't trust the wingers, we as fans didn't particularly last season and Bailey is miles off.
I want to see him given funds to solve the midfield woes, solve the central defensive issue of giving a free gift every game. I want to see him attract more exciting players like Coutinho too, but my main aim is the dull, difficult work. That would be the same whoever was in charge.
I see absolutely no reason to jettison him.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 14, 2022, 10:43:17 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 14, 2022, 10:46:17 PM
Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
No. Unless they're already mates with them.
Post by: Risso on April 14, 2022, 10:47:10 PM
Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
Well it’s worked with Coutinho and Digne so far.
Post by: Ads on April 14, 2022, 10:47:22 PM
Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Post by: brontebilly on April 14, 2022, 10:48:24 PM
That's definitely true of Smith, I'm not sure it is of Bruce.
He took over a team in 19th place with 10 points from 11 games and probably the most expensive squad ever in the championship and left us in in 13th place, with 15pouints from 11 games but with 1 fit centre half and a squad that was mostly coming up to be out of contract at the end of that season. I'd say he left us roughly where he found us, having been part of a group that took us to the brink of administration.
Bruce had no responsibility for the club being on the brink of administration. That summary also kind of glosses over being within 90 mins of promotion under the greatest shit show of a board possibly ever in charge of a club. He did a reasonable job stabilising a club on the slide including running McCormack and getting Grealish back on track.
Post by: Beard82 on April 14, 2022, 10:50:39 PM
Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?Unfortunately I think they are. I think it’s a bloody disgrace if the thing you are excited about is playing under a great ex pro - rather then one of the most famous clubs in the world - but I think it is the case.
It’s like banning ketchup - surely it’s absolutely irrelevant but yet it happens. Conte and Gerrard both seem to have had a look at the sauce list in the canteen and decided it was part of the problem
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 14, 2022, 10:58:10 PM
It’s like banning ketchup - surely it’s absolutely irrelevant but yet it happens. Conte and Gerrard both seem to have had a look at the sauce list in the canteen and decided it was part of the problem
And who can blame them? Dreadful stuff.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 14, 2022, 10:58:30 PM
I think he should stay so he can build his own squad. I think he's got more out of Smith's post-Grealish squad. I think he proved me utterly wrong about a player like Marv in his short spell, as stubborn as I was. I think him being back against Leicester will help, given our absolute contrivance to gift the softest of goals, which we didn't when he played. We exerted a strangle on games such as Palace away.
I dont like him sticking with out of form players, but I don't think he rates the squad. I don't rate our spine and I have the ability of hindsight to admit I was wrong about the summer recruitment, it left us deficient in a key area we've been lacking for a few seasons.
I really like the way we play when we click. That 3 game run was very good, the 3 games thereafter were frustrating. We dont grind draws, a hangover from Smith too. Sours was probably one of the oddest games I've ever seen.
I think there's more structure to our play now from the jumbled mess that we ended with (the positions away at Southampton were grim). I think the system whether it's 4312 we've played of late or 4321 is wholly dependent on both Cash and Digne being fit. He doesn't trust the wingers, we as fans didn't particularly last season and Bailey is miles off.
I want to see him given funds to solve the midfield woes, solve the central defensive issue of giving a free gift every game. I want to see him attract more exciting players like Coutinho too, but my main aim is the dull, difficult work. That would be the same whoever was in charge.
I see absolutely no reason to jettison him.
Thanks. I don't massively concur with most of those points but do agree we play some good stuff at times, but that just makes it all the more frustrating how rare it is.
I'd also say that we should look fantastic a lot of the time. We have Buendia, Coutinho, Bailey, Watkins and Ings as our attacking options. I feel like a really good manager could have some combination of those players terrifying opponents more often than for a half once every two or three games.
Meanwhile, the defence seems as bad as at any time since we got promoted.
Contrary to what you've presumed, while I didn't want him appointed, once he was here, I wanted him to succeed. I thought he came in for unfair stick after Brentford, in particular, which was just one of those days where the opposition were jammy as fuck. In spite of my entirely reasonable revulsion for his playing career, I don't particularly dislike him on a personal level any more. He generally comes across well in interviews and seems to have taken the club to heart.
I just think that he isn't getting anywhere near the best out of the players at his disposal. Only Cash is playing better than he has before in his career. Many are nowhere near their best.
I feel that we have the ambition and the finances to attract one of the best managers on Earth. I haven't seen anything in Gerrard to suggest that he will reach that level based on what he's achieved at Villa or at "Rangers" and I think we would be looking in a shallower pool of managerial talent if we end up looking for a new manager mid-season, as usual. That's why, barring significant improvement, I'd part ways at the end of the season.
I'd quite like us to be really, really fucking good again at some point before we all die and believe that a top class, proven manager provides a greater chance of that happening than we have under the current incumbent.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 14, 2022, 11:11:15 PM
Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Let's see if he stays before getting too excited about that one.
Post by: Drummond on April 14, 2022, 11:13:41 PM
I think he should stay so he can build his own squad. I think he's got more out of Smith's post-Grealish squad. I think he proved me utterly wrong about a player like Marv in his short spell, as stubborn as I was. I think him being back against Leicester will help, given our absolute contrivance to gift the softest of goals, which we didn't when he played. We exerted a strangle on games such as Palace away.
I dont like him sticking with out of form players, but I don't think he rates the squad. I don't rate our spine and I have the ability of hindsight to admit I was wrong about the summer recruitment, it left us deficient in a key area we've been lacking for a few seasons.
I really like the way we play when we click. That 3 game run was very good, the 3 games thereafter were frustrating. We dont grind draws, a hangover from Smith too. Sours was probably one of the oddest games I've ever seen.
I think there's more structure to our play now from the jumbled mess that we ended with (the positions away at Southampton were grim). I think the system whether it's 4312 we've played of late or 4321 is wholly dependent on both Cash and Digne being fit. He doesn't trust the wingers, we as fans didn't particularly last season and Bailey is miles off.
I want to see him given funds to solve the midfield woes, solve the central defensive issue of giving a free gift every game. I want to see him attract more exciting players like Coutinho too, but my main aim is the dull, difficult work. That would be the same whoever was in charge.
I see absolutely no reason to jettison him.
Thanks. I don't massively concur with most of those points but do agree we play some good stuff at times, but that just makes it all the more frustrating how rare it is.
I'd also say that we should look fantastic a lot of the time. We have Buendia, Coutinho, Bailey, Watkins and Ings as our attacking options. I feel like a really good manager could have some combination of those players terrifying opponents more often than for a half once every two or three games.
Meanwhile, the defence seems as bad as at any time since we got promoted.
Contrary to what you've presumed, while I didn't want him appointed, once he was here, I wanted him to succeed. I thought he came in for unfair stick after Brentford, in particular, which was just one of those days where the opposition were jammy as fuck. In spite of my entirely reasonable revulsion for his playing career, I don't particularly dislike him on a personal level any more. He generally comes across well in interviews and seems to have taken the club to heart.
I just think that he isn't getting anywhere near the best out of the players at his disposal. Only Cash is playing better than he has before in his career. Many are nowhere near their best.
I feel that we have the ambition and the finances to attract one of the best managers on Earth. I haven't seen anything in Gerrard to suggest that he will reach that level based on what he's achieved at Villa or at "Rangers" and I think we would be looking in a shallower pool of managerial talent if we end up looking for a new manager mid-season, as usual. That's why, barring significant improvement, I'd part ways at the end of the season.
I'd quite like us to be really, really fucking good again at some point before we all die and believe that a top class, proven manager provides a greater chance of that happening than we have under the current incumbent.
Have to say I agree with this.
Post by: Drummond on April 14, 2022, 11:21:03 PM
Smith though continued to improve us. This season started poorly and I could see why he needed to go. We can all argue about what might have happened had he stayed but we will never know.
Gerrard hasn't convinced me yet. I'll agree that he has spoken well and said the right things. The issue is that following that new manager bounce, we dropped, picked up again for three games and have subsequently gone backwards again.
I hope it's just taking time to settle and that it will come good. Because I like how he's handled the press and questions. We need an upturn though, because I'll be seriously pissed off if we lose an even better player this summer than we did last.
Anyway, there were signs in the 1st half of Spuds. Let's hope we click, because when we do, someone will be on the receiving end!
Post by: olaftab on April 14, 2022, 11:52:32 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on April 15, 2022, 02:36:21 AM
Totally agree with CD and Drummond. Gerrard gets done by better coaches every time. The man is not good enough as a coach for a team aiming to be in top half never mind too 6 of this league. We can not afford to wait for him to learn his job.
I think "in-game" management is a huge part of modern football given the different formations teams now employ during games.
In generations gone by, teams in this country pretty much all played the same formation, so it was really a case of getting the better of your opponent on the day. Motivating players was therefore arguably the most important aspect of managing a team. In the modern game, managers might employ a few different formations in the same game, so tactical nous and being able to adapt when needed.
Our two most recent managers have both had very little experience of managing in the top flight and are still very much learning at that level. My main criticism of both during their time here would be that they don't seem to adapt to changes made by the opposition during games and just don't seem to currently have that nous, which may of course come with more experience.
With Steven Gerrard, there is a clear 'plan A' which he has implemented from the start of his time at the club. The issue I have seen, is there doesn't really seem to be other options when 'plan A' isn't working.
Still think it is far too early to write him off though and talk of him being sacked is very premature.
Post by: Rory on April 15, 2022, 03:17:21 AM
Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Let's see if he stays before getting too excited about that one.
No doubt we only got him because of Gerrard, but I'd be amazed if we managed to sign him pernanently.
Post by: Toronto Villa on April 15, 2022, 04:26:24 AM
Totally agree with CD and Drummond. Gerrard gets done by better coaches every time. The man is not good enough as a coach for a team aiming to be in top half never mind too 6 of this league. We can not afford to wait for him to learn his job.
Before we just write him off many managers went on to be much better than the record they had at the early stages of their career. Case in point the bloke many think he’ll ultimately replace in Klopp. Look at his record at Mainz; did nothing of note and eventually oversaw their relegation. Left them for Borussia where it suddenly clicked for him. I’m not for a second suggesting Gerrard is the next coming of Klopp or any other top manager, but a few months in, there is no way to tell how successful he will or won’t be. And as we have seen at Everton and Man U; “established” well known names have done the square root of fuck all.
Post by: olaftab on April 15, 2022, 05:23:43 AM
Who WAS the most expensive player but did nothing at Barca or Bayern and probably had very little choice to play regular football at a decent level other than joining us and will only stick with us if he thinks it might harm his chances of making the Brazilian WC squad if he went somewhere else.Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 15, 2022, 07:11:06 AM
Purslow is an empty-headed groupie, entirely star-struck by Gerrard. Wes Eden and Nassef Sawiris, who have accomplished nothing of note in life, completely taken in by a charlatan masquerading as a football manager.
Gerrard is done in by every single manager, every time. Just look at how Conte's marrionettes on the field lulled us into a false sense of security by letting themselves be played off the park in the first half. He then came up with a tactical masterclass by telling Son "instead of missing all your chances like Villa's players, score instead" (still swooning from this supreme show of sage advice, which could only have come from one of the absolute top coaches in the world).
Football matches are won solely by the manager. The players on the pitch are an irrelevance.
All good football managers have a Plan B, Plan C and Plan D and switch between these seamlessly, match in, match out, because that is was good managers do. Good managers also abhor a preferred style because what would the value of that be - an ingrained system that players know and understand is clearly a disadvantage and if they don't get it instantly, change it around - and then change it again - because that is what all great managers do.
Gerrard is incapable of learning. Anything. Neither him nor anyone in his team are capable enough to analyse our matches and, if they do, they are clearly not as good at it as everyone else. The only reason he is not changing anything around is because he is too stupid to, as is his entire team. It has nothing to do with what he sees at the training ground, nothing to do with the long-term vision he has of how he wants Villa to play. It is because he just doesn't understand anything about football, nor does his support team.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 15, 2022, 07:24:46 AM
So to summarize:Sir, I like the cut of your jib.
Purslow is an empty-headed groupie, entirely star-struck by Gerrard. Wes Eden and Nassef Sawiris, who have accomplished nothing of note in life, completely taken in by a charlatan masquerading as a football manager.
Gerrard is done in by every single manager, every time. Just look at how Conte's marrionettes on the field lulled us into a false sense of security by letting themselves be played off the park in the first half. He then came up with a tactical masterclass by telling Son "instead of missing all your chances like Villa's players, score instead" (still swooning from this supreme show of sage advice, which could only have come from one of the absolute top coaches in the world).
Football matches are won solely by the manager. The players on the pitch are an irrelevance.
All good football managers have a Plan B, Plan C and Plan D and switch between these seamlessly, match in, match out, because that is was good managers do. Good managers also abhor a preferred style because what would the value of that be - an ingrained system that players know and understand is clearly a disadvantage and if they don't get it instantly, change it around - and then change it again - because that is what all great managers do.
Gerrard is incapable of learning. Anything. Neither him nor anyone in his team are capable enough to analyse our matches and, if they do, they are clearly not as good at it as everyone else. The only reason he is not changing anything around is because he is too stupid to, as is his entire team. It has nothing to do with what he sees at the training ground, nothing to do with the long-term vision he has of how he wants Villa to play. It is because he just doesn't understand anything about football, nor does his support team.
Post by: Taylor on April 15, 2022, 07:31:48 AM
Totally agree with CD and Drummond. Gerrard gets done by better coaches every time. The man is not good enough as a coach for a team aiming to be in top half never mind too 6 of this league. We can not afford to wait for him to learn his job.I disagree, I think we can wait. We’re not going down. Surely what we cannot afford to do is keep changing the manager every few months. We’re not f**king Watford. I think it was mentioned earlier, but didn’t Arsenal’s fickle fan base mostly want Arteta out at the start of the season, and now they are pushing for a CL spot.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 15, 2022, 07:50:35 AM
Brilliant.Who WAS the most expensive player but did nothing at Barca or Bayern and probably had very little choice to play regular football at a decent level other than joining us and will only stick with us if he thinks it might harm his chances of making the Brazilian WC squad if he went somewhere else.Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
I've watched one of the best players who play the game over his short period of time he's been with us put on an Aston Villa shirt and at times be miles ahead of those around him in a footballing sense and its a so called negative move by the club?
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 15, 2022, 08:05:19 AM
I didn't want him because I'd seen nothing that warranted the appointment. I also didn't particularly want Smith but as a mid-table side in the Championship it was always going to be hard to attract a top manager.
Smith though continued to improve us. This season started poorly and I could see why he needed to go. We can all argue about what might have happened had he stayed but we will never know.
Gerrard hasn't convinced me yet. I'll agree that he has spoken well and said the right things. The issue is that following that new manager bounce, we dropped, picked up again for three games and have subsequently gone backwards again.
I hope it's just taking time to settle and that it will come good. Because I like how he's handled the press and questions. We need an upturn though, because I'll be seriously pissed off if we lose an even better player this summer than we did last.
Anyway, there were signs in the 1st half of Spuds. Let's hope we click, because when we do, someone will be on the receiving end!
Smith also suffered a terrible run a couple of months after his new manager bounce, January and February 2019, get drubbed away to Wigan and Swansea and Albion at home. And Smith went on after a really dodgy first premier league season, for a few months at least in 20/21 to have his team play some of the best football we’ve seen perhaps since 95/96.
I loved having Dean in charge and defended him many times on here. I think Ads pointed out that the feeling in the ground was different to on here, the supporters in general hadn’t turned on him. Simplifying it a bit, but that is part of the problem for Gerrard. Some supporters weren’t ready to let Smith go, some can’t stand Gerrard. I thought the first game against Brighton was muted for a nrw managers first game, largely for these factors i feel. Im sure within this there is genuine concern about recent performances.
But its been 5 months, its nothing even in the short term world that is modern football. We generally haven’t been stinking the place out with a bunch of charlatans like 2012-2016, we have decent players, but a decent bunch of whom are probably at that their level, mid table. To push on we need a new spine, CB, DM, centre forward, to compliment the top players we have, Cash, Digne, Coutinhio (if we keep him), Ramsey and hopefully bring the others with potential to get better, Watkins, McGinn etc up to a better level.
Gerrard needs time to do this.
Finally, we’ve been here before with Smith, bit what top manager would come?? Pochetino was touted on here before, its fantasy land to be honest. The only ones looking realistic when Smith got the hook, were European journeyman like Fonseca.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 15, 2022, 08:52:51 AM
So to summarize:
Purslow is an empty-headed groupie, entirely star-struck by Gerrard. Wes Eden and Nassef Sawiris, who have accomplished nothing of note in life, completely taken in by a charlatan masquerading as a football manager.
Gerrard is done in by every single manager, every time. Just look at how Conte's marrionettes on the field lulled us into a false sense of security by letting themselves be played off the park in the first half. He then came up with a tactical masterclass by telling Son "instead of missing all your chances like Villa's players, score instead" (still swooning from this supreme show of sage advice, which could only have come from one of the absolute top coaches in the world).
Football matches are won solely by the manager. The players on the pitch are an irrelevance.
All good football managers have a Plan B, Plan C and Plan D and switch between these seamlessly, match in, match out, because that is was good managers do. Good managers also abhor a preferred style because what would the value of that be - an ingrained system that players know and understand is clearly a disadvantage and if they don't get it instantly, change it around - and then change it again - because that is what all great managers do.
Gerrard is incapable of learning. Anything. Neither him nor anyone in his team are capable enough to analyse our matches and, if they do, they are clearly not as good at it as everyone else. The only reason he is not changing anything around is because he is too stupid to, as is his entire team. It has nothing to do with what he sees at the training ground, nothing to do with the long-term vision he has of how he wants Villa to play. It is because he just doesn't understand anything about football, nor does his support team.
What seems clear is that some of you take any criticism of Gerrard as a call for him to be sacked and in response overdo the arguments for his performance. It’s akin to faith rather than logic. I was sceptical about his appointment in the first place and he’s done little to change my opinion so far. We’re still too open and susceptible to the counter attack yet he appears stubbornly unwilling to address it. On the flip side at times, like the first half against Spurs, when we it all clicks and it looks great. We’re like the little girl with the curl - when we are good we are very, very good but when we are bad, we are horrid.
That said I am hoping that when he is backed this summer he is able to bring in the players who make the way he wants us to play work and dispels all of the doubts. Until then this argument will rumble on.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 15, 2022, 09:16:05 AM
So to summarize:
Purslow is an empty-headed groupie, entirely star-struck by Gerrard. Wes Eden and Nassef Sawiris, who have accomplished nothing of note in life, completely taken in by a charlatan masquerading as a football manager.
Gerrard is done in by every single manager, every time. Just look at how Conte's marrionettes on the field lulled us into a false sense of security by letting themselves be played off the park in the first half. He then came up with a tactical masterclass by telling Son "instead of missing all your chances like Villa's players, score instead" (still swooning from this supreme show of sage advice, which could only have come from one of the absolute top coaches in the world).
Football matches are won solely by the manager. The players on the pitch are an irrelevance.
All good football managers have a Plan B, Plan C and Plan D and switch between these seamlessly, match in, match out, because that is was good managers do. Good managers also abhor a preferred style because what would the value of that be - an ingrained system that players know and understand is clearly a disadvantage and if they don't get it instantly, change it around - and then change it again - because that is what all great managers do.
Gerrard is incapable of learning. Anything. Neither him nor anyone in his team are capable enough to analyse our matches and, if they do, they are clearly not as good at it as everyone else. The only reason he is not changing anything around is because he is too stupid to, as is his entire team. It has nothing to do with what he sees at the training ground, nothing to do with the long-term vision he has of how he wants Villa to play. It is because he just doesn't understand anything about football, nor does his support team.
There’s that straw man again!
Post by: Rigadon on April 15, 2022, 09:41:18 AM
We also make too many stupid mistakes that are punished more often than not and we miss too many clear scoring chances to consistently win or even draw games. He can only sort that out by buying better players in key positions.
So while I don't like the current run of results at all, I want to see who he buys in the summer and how we start next season before making my mind up. I think there could be a top manager in Gerrard - he is a leader, is intelligent in a football context and has a clear way he wants to play - he isn't a 'chancer' in the Shrewood bracket.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 15, 2022, 09:45:25 AM
What seems clear is that some of you take any criticism of Gerrard as a call for him to be sacked and in response overdo the arguments for his performance. It’s akin to faith rather than logic. I was sceptical about his appointment in the first place and he’s done little to change my opinion so far. We’re still too open and susceptible to the counter attack yet he appears stubbornly unwilling to address it. On the flip side at times, like the first half against Spurs, when we it all clicks and it looks great. We’re like the little girl with the curl - when we are good we are very, very good but when we are bad, we are horrid.
That said I am hoping that when he is backed this summer he is able to bring in the players who make the way he wants us to play work and dispels all of the doubts. Until then this argument will rumble on.
Not really. I take no issue with your views on Gerrard. They come across quite balanced. As do several others who offer criticism of him to date. Others, still, not so much.
Post by: Risso on April 15, 2022, 10:04:08 AM
What seems clear is that some of you take any criticism of Gerrard as a call for him to be sacked and in response overdo the arguments for his performance.
Well duh, this thread was started as "Gerrard Out" until Legion amended it. I don't think anybody has overdone the arguments for his performance, most people are just saying he needs time. He took over an inconsistent group of players, who were doing very badly, and now they're inconsistent still.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 15, 2022, 10:16:16 AM
Post by: olaftab on April 15, 2022, 10:50:39 AM
So to summarize:Yes exactly…thank you.
Purslow is an empty-headed groupie, entirely star-struck by Gerrard. Wes Eden and Nassef Sawiris, who have accomplished nothing of note in life, completely taken in by a charlatan masquerading as a football manager.
Gerrard is done in by every single manager, every time. Just look at how Conte's marrionettes on the field lulled us into a false sense of security by letting themselves be played off the park in the first half. He then came up with a tactical masterclass by telling Son "instead of missing all your chances like Villa's players, score instead" (still swooning from this supreme show of sage advice, which could only have come from one of the absolute top coaches in the world).
Football matches are won solely by the manager. The players on the pitch are an irrelevance.
All good football managers have a Plan B, Plan C and Plan D and switch between these seamlessly, match in, match out, because that is was good managers do. Good managers also abhor a preferred style because what would the value of that be - an ingrained system that players know and understand is clearly a disadvantage and if they don't get it instantly, change it around - and then change it again - because that is what all great managers do.
Gerrard is incapable of learning. Anything. Neither him nor anyone in his team are capable enough to analyse our matches and, if they do, they are clearly not as good at it as everyone else. The only reason he is not changing anything around is because he is too stupid to, as is his entire team. It has nothing to do with what he sees at the training ground, nothing to do with the long-term vision he has of how he wants Villa to play. It is because he just doesn't understand anything about football, nor does his support team.
Post by: olaftab on April 15, 2022, 10:51:53 AM
I feel really guilty now.If so delete the topic and it will all go away😀
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 15, 2022, 10:54:33 AM
Post by: Ads on April 15, 2022, 11:40:29 AM
Who WAS the most expensive player but did nothing at Barca or Bayern and probably had very little choice to play regular football at a decent level other than joining us and will only stick with us if he thinks it might harm his chances of making the Brazilian WC squad if he went somewhere else.Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Scored 1 in 3 and won the league and Euopean Cup. That's an interesting definition of nothing as people jump through contrived hoops to denigrate. We have the world's 4th most expensive player on our books, a Brazilian international of the flair kind, the sort we dreamed of in 2006 in the post-Ellis world. He's here because of the manager. An uncomfortable truth it seems.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on April 15, 2022, 11:48:29 AM
Yes exactly…thank you.
I knew you'd write that :)
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 15, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
And how the Villa world has changed regarding manager's bringing their favourites to our club.Who WAS the most expensive player but did nothing at Barca or Bayern and probably had very little choice to play regular football at a decent level other than joining us and will only stick with us if he thinks it might harm his chances of making the Brazilian WC squad if he went somewhere else.Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Scored 1 in 3 and won the league and Euopean Cup. That's an interesting definition of nothing as people jump through contrived hoops to denigrate. We have the world's 4th most expensive player on our books, a Brazilian international of the flair kind, the sort we dreamed of in 2006 in the post-Ellis world. He's here because of the manager. An uncomfortable truth it seems.
Gerrard brings in Coutinho.
It's a bit different to Lambert signing Grant Holt.
Post by: TonyD on April 15, 2022, 11:59:33 AM
He will have had two weeks to plan. Set pieces, formations etc.
Post by: eamonn on April 15, 2022, 01:06:58 PM
Their later single Michiko is a lost classic. I believe it was Stanley Victor Collymore's favourite song of 1993 (the band's singer was a huge Forest fan, they may have met).
Not a lost classic in my house, they were one of my favourite bands of my university years, along with the Franks.
Cork-pop!
Post by: gpbarr on April 15, 2022, 01:13:21 PM
I think the Leicester game will be a good barometer
He will have had two weeks to plan. Set pieces, formations etc.
Like before the Wolves game - and we came out flat as a pancake and looked awful.
The only thing the Leicester game will show us is more proof he isn't up to the job.
Post by: Ads on April 15, 2022, 01:17:04 PM
Post by: gpbarr on April 15, 2022, 01:30:06 PM
Who nows whether Gerrard will turn out to be what we all hope he will be (given he is here now) - the problem is he wants to buy players that fit his style of football (a Xmas tree 433), which right or wrong, is very different from the approach under Smith - which means the investments the owners made in personnel a year ago now make no sense - under Gerrard, its unlikely there is any future for Bailey or Traore for example (they are traditional wingers), Buendia competes with Coutinho so there is only going to be one winner there (which we have seen already with his selections), Watkins likely has no future (Ings fits the Gerrard mould more traditionally).
Swapping managers every year is bad enough (and we have seen far too much of that), swapping styles is cray because it takes time to adjust and money to swap personnel.
This summer wont be building upon previous, it will be adjusting to fit a new way. If it were my money (thank god it isn't), that would worry me and lead me to Purslow's door to ask some pretty robust questions about whats going on.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 15, 2022, 01:43:00 PM
Who WAS the most expensive player but did nothing at Barca or Bayern and probably had very little choice to play regular football at a decent level other than joining us and will only stick with us if he thinks it might harm his chances of making the Brazilian WC squad if he went somewhere else.Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Scored 1 in 3 and won the league and Euopean Cup. That's an interesting definition of nothing as people jump through contrived hoops to denigrate. We have the world's 4th most expensive player on our books, a Brazilian international of the flair kind, the sort we dreamed of in 2006 in the post-Ellis world. He's here because of the manager. An uncomfortable truth it seems.
I think the point with Coutinho is that he and Gerrard know each other personally, probably old mates in fact. Not so sure Gerrard is likely to attract top players he doesn't know on the strength of his name if we're still bumbling around outside the top half or even euro places. He may well have more 'mates' and contacts amonst the top players than Deano had and a fair few other managers though.
If Coutinho was doing the business at Barca we'd have had no chance anyway of course. That's not to say i'm not happy with him being here even just on loan and i hope we sign him as i think at his best he's better than Grealish, but i'm not convinced we will.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 15, 2022, 01:58:23 PM
I hope that there is a plan B that Steven has in mind to stop us being crap. Vladimir Smicer might be able to find his shin pads again. Although it might be difficult to capture his attention with this project as he has his heart set on becoming a member of the European Parliament.
As Phil Collins once sang ‘that’s just the way it is.’
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 02:14:27 PM
Setting aside all the silliness about this debate, the bigger issue for me is not really about Gerrard per se, its about the philosophy of the club that seems to have gone out of the window this season. Thats what I don't understand.Yes I think this is why I feel uncomfortable. There is a lot to like about Gerrard and he is clearly working very hard and could well become a good manager - but it a big gamble changing direction on his advice - as it’s a double gamble - the formation may or may not work and he may or may not be a good manager
Who nows whether Gerrard will turn out to be what we all hope he will be (given he is here now) - the problem is he wants to buy players that fit his style of football (a Xmas tree 433), which right or wrong, is very different from the approach under Smith - which means the investments the owners made in personnel a year ago now make no sense - under Gerrard, its unlikely there is any future for Bailey or Traore for example (they are traditional wingers), Buendia competes with Coutinho so there is only going to be one winner there (which we have seen already with his selections), Watkins likely has no future (Ings fits the Gerrard mould more traditionally).
Swapping managers every year is bad enough (and we have seen far too much of that), swapping styles is cray because it takes time to adjust and money to swap personnel.
This summer wont be building upon previous, it will be adjusting to fit a new way. If it were my money (thank god it isn't), that would worry me and lead me to Purslow's door to ask some pretty robust questions about whats going on.
Post by: LeeB on April 15, 2022, 02:15:09 PM
Setting aside all the silliness about this debate, the bigger issue for me is not really about Gerrard per se, its about the philosophy of the club that seems to have gone out of the window this season. Thats what I don't understand.
Who nows whether Gerrard will turn out to be what we all hope he will be (given he is here now) - the problem is he wants to buy players that fit his style of football (a Xmas tree 433), which right or wrong, is very different from the approach under Smith - which means the investments the owners made in personnel a year ago now make no sense - under Gerrard, its unlikely there is any future for Bailey or Traore for example (they are traditional wingers), Buendia competes with Coutinho so there is only going to be one winner there (which we have seen already with his selections), Watkins likely has no future (Ings fits the Gerrard mould more traditionally).
Swapping managers every year is bad enough (and we have seen far too much of that), swapping styles is cray because it takes time to adjust and money to swap personnel.
This summer wont be building upon previous, it will be adjusting to fit a new way. If it were my money (thank god it isn't), that would worry me and lead me to Purslow's door to ask some pretty robust questions about whats going on.
These are my concerns also.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 15, 2022, 02:57:56 PM
The problem as I see it is that it looks like Dirk Kuyt has retired and is dedicated to selling a ‘DK’ branded clothing range in his native Holland.
I hope that there is a plan B that Steven has in mind to stop us being crap. Vladimir Smicer might be able to find his shin pads again. Although it might be difficult to capture his attention with this project as he has his heart set on becoming a member of the European Parliament.
As Phil Collins once sang ‘that’s just the way it is.’
Whilst that is a shame I wasn’t thinking those two particularly, my dream would be for him to persuade Emile Heskey to come back for a second go.
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 15, 2022, 03:35:22 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 15, 2022, 04:00:11 PM
The problem as I see it is that it looks like Dirk Kuyt has retired and is dedicated to selling a ‘DK’ branded clothing range in his native Holland.
I'm surprised Donna Karan hasn't had something to say about that.
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 15, 2022, 04:46:46 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 15, 2022, 04:48:06 PM
I'll send my tickets back then. How will we get on against Norwich just so I can factor in what to do?Dean Smith is the greatest manager of all time according to a few on here. So, going off that, I think it'll be 13-0 to Norwich.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 15, 2022, 05:01:36 PM
I'll send my tickets back then. How will we get on against Norwich just so I can factor in what to do?Dean Smith is the greatest manager of all time according to a few on here. So, going off that, I think it'll be 13-0 to Norwich.
Which few?
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 15, 2022, 05:18:07 PM
guess :)I'll send my tickets back then. How will we get on against Norwich just so I can factor in what to do?Dean Smith is the greatest manager of all time according to a few on here. So, going off that, I think it'll be 13-0 to Norwich.
Which few?
Post by: algy on April 15, 2022, 05:37:04 PM
I agree - in a world where brown sauce exists, ketchup is an entirely pointless condiment. There's not a single situation where it's the most appropriate sauce.It’s like banning ketchup - surely it’s absolutely irrelevant but yet it happens. Conte and Gerrard both seem to have had a look at the sauce list in the canteen and decided it was part of the problem
And who can blame them? Dreadful stuff.
Post by: brontebilly on April 15, 2022, 05:39:32 PM
Who WAS the most expensive player but did nothing at Barca or Bayern and probably had very little choice to play regular football at a decent level other than joining us and will only stick with us if he thinks it might harm his chances of making the Brazilian WC squad if he went somewhere else.Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?
We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.
Scored 1 in 3 and won the league and Euopean Cup. That's an interesting definition of nothing as people jump through contrived hoops to denigrate. We have the world's 4th most expensive player on our books, a Brazilian international of the flair kind, the sort we dreamed of in 2006 in the post-Ellis world. He's here because of the manager. An uncomfortable truth it seems.
I think the point with Coutinho is that he and Gerrard know each other personally, probably old mates in fact. Not so sure Gerrard is likely to attract top players he doesn't know on the strength of his name if we're still bumbling around outside the top half or even euro places. He may well have more 'mates' and contacts amonst the top players than Deano had and a fair few other managers though.
If Coutinho was doing the business at Barca we'd have had no chance anyway of course. That's not to say i'm not happy with him being here even just on loan and i hope we sign him as i think at his best he's better than Grealish, but i'm not convinced we will.
I think at his best Grealish was more influential on other players than Coutinho. Coutinho is obviously a talented player but seems to strike in certain moments. Large parts of games, some games in total, pass him by. That wasn't the case with our previous talisman.
Gerrard's profile I'm sure was key in getting likes of Digne and Coutinho in. But both were kind of in a sticky spot in their respective careers and clubs at the time. I'd agree with you in that I don't think his profile will sway most players from picking us over say Spurs or West Ham.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 15, 2022, 05:40:15 PM
I agree - in a world where brown sauce exists, ketchup is an entirely pointless condiment. There's not a single situation where it's the most appropriate sauce.It’s like banning ketchup - surely it’s absolutely irrelevant but yet it happens. Conte and Gerrard both seem to have had a look at the sauce list in the canteen and decided it was part of the problem
And who can blame them? Dreadful stuff.
Brown sauce only exists in the UK. It's the thing I miss the most when I'm in Mexico (along with proper cheddar cheese, Branston Pickle and salt & vinegar crisps. And cider. And beer that tastes of beer).
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 15, 2022, 06:02:15 PM
I agree - in a world where brown sauce exists, ketchup is an entirely pointless condiment. There's not a single situation where it's the most appropriate sauce.It’s like banning ketchup - surely it’s absolutely irrelevant but yet it happens. Conte and Gerrard both seem to have had a look at the sauce list in the canteen and decided it was part of the problem
And who can blame them? Dreadful stuff.
Bollox to that! Ketchup every time. Brown sauce is brown because it has shit in it.
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 06:04:04 PM
CorrectI agree - in a world where brown sauce exists, ketchup is an entirely pointless condiment. There's not a single situation where it's the most appropriate sauce.It’s like banning ketchup - surely it’s absolutely irrelevant but yet it happens. Conte and Gerrard both seem to have had a look at the sauce list in the canteen and decided it was part of the problem
And who can blame them? Dreadful stuff.
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 06:06:43 PM
Red sauce is only red because it’s got the blood of crushed dreamsI agree - in a world where brown sauce exists, ketchup is an entirely pointless condiment. There's not a single situation where it's the most appropriate sauce.It’s like banning ketchup - surely it’s absolutely irrelevant but yet it happens. Conte and Gerrard both seem to have had a look at the sauce list in the canteen and decided it was part of the problem
And who can blame them? Dreadful stuff.
Bollox to that! Ketchup every time. Brown sauce is brown because it has shit in it.
Post by: Risso on April 15, 2022, 06:29:33 PM
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 15, 2022, 06:33:05 PM
Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
Post by: Risso on April 15, 2022, 06:36:42 PM
Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
In my opinion that's just plain wrong. The fruitier, spicer flavour of brown perfectly complements a peppery sausage, while the acidity of tomato sauce cuts through the saltiness of smoked bacon.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 15, 2022, 06:39:10 PM
Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
I'm generally a "no sauce at all" person but when in the mood it would only ever be on a sausage sandwich and would be brown.
I am glad however that this thread has got to the nub of the issue.
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 06:42:43 PM
Can we update the thread titleRed on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
I'm generally a "no sauce at all" person but when in the mood it would only ever be on a sausage sandwich and would be brown.
I am glad however that this thread has got to the nub of the issue.
Post by: Mister E on April 15, 2022, 06:55:23 PM
Sausages? - the only condiment is Dijon mustard. Occasionally, Heinz tomato ketchup.I'm generally a "no sauce at all" person but when in the mood it would only ever be on a sausage sandwich and would be brown.Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.Has to be the other way around Risso
I am glad however that this thread has got to the nub of the issue.
Thank you, and goodnight!
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 15, 2022, 07:04:12 PM
Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
In my opinion that's just plain wrong. The fruitier, spicer flavour of brown perfectly complements a peppery sausage, while the acidity of tomato sauce cuts through the saltiness of smoked bacon.
Fucking hell, hark at Gordon Ramsey here !
Anyway, tonight I dipped my pizza crusts in a ‘Bullseye’ standard BBQ sauce and it was pretty good. I had the ‘New York Steakhouse’ version a few weeks back and that was even better.
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 07:20:52 PM
New head off match day catering at VPRed on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
In my opinion that's just plain wrong. The fruitier, spicer flavour of brown perfectly complements a peppery sausage, while the acidity of tomato sauce cuts through the saltiness of smoked bacon.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 15, 2022, 07:35:03 PM
Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
In my opinion that's just plain wrong. The fruitier, spicer flavour of brown perfectly complements a peppery sausage, while the acidity of tomato sauce cuts through the saltiness of smoked bacon.
Brown on peppery sausage is just overkill, you need a plainer red to let the sausage flavour still dominate. Bit like Buendia and Coutinhio.
Can i just add whether its bacon or Sausage, has to be white bread.
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 07:43:20 PM
Agreed - in for a penny in for a poundRed on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
In my opinion that's just plain wrong. The fruitier, spicer flavour of brown perfectly complements a peppery sausage, while the acidity of tomato sauce cuts through the saltiness of smoked bacon.
Brown on peppery sausage is just overkill, you need a plainer red to let the sausage flavour still dominate. Bit like Buendia and Coutinhio.
Can i just add whether its bacon or Sausage, has to be white bread.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2022, 07:55:59 PM
Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
There's never, ever any excuse for red sauce on anything at all. It is the work of the devil.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 15, 2022, 08:00:22 PM
In my opinion that's just plain wrong. The fruitier, spicer flavour of brown perfectly complements a peppery sausage, while the acidity of tomato sauce cuts through the saltiness of smoked bacon.
Fucking hell, hark at Gordon Ramsey here !
I'd watch a show called 'Risso's Kitchen Nightmares' with a spin-off version which follows his travails as he get his latest AGA fitted.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 08:01:48 PM
Ketchup, FFS. It's children's food.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 15, 2022, 08:03:17 PM
Can i just add whether its bacon or Sausage, has to be white bread.
Agree 100%, preferably fresh crusty white Irish batch bread with lashings of Kerrygold butter.
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 15, 2022, 08:03:18 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 08:06:53 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 15, 2022, 08:08:26 PM
There's never, ever any excuse for red sauce on anything at all. It is the work of the devil.
Agreed, one of my flatmates in uni used to put ketchup on his spaghetti bolognese. :o
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2022, 08:08:30 PM
We've been over this before, but anyone putting that shite ketchup anywhere near bacon is a fucking savage.
Ketchup, FFS. It's children's food.
Exactly. Foul, feral children.
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2022, 08:28:42 PM
Butter shouldn't be on a bacon sandwich, either.
100% correct.
Post by: itmustbe_it is! on April 15, 2022, 08:29:44 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 15, 2022, 08:34:45 PM
Where do we stand on mayonnaise? and a bit of sliced tomato to go on your bacon sarnieI like Mayo with Chilli on a Kebab
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2022, 08:39:13 PM
Where do we stand on mayonnaise? and a bit of sliced tomato to go on your bacon sarnie
Acceptable on a BLT or chicken and bacon sandwich. On your bacon sandwich proper, totally wrong.
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 08:40:01 PM
Where do we stand on mayonnaise? and a bit of sliced tomato to go on your bacon sarnieAh - I think that is acceptable - and in that case the bread can be brown and lettuce can be added.
In our house that is called a vegetarian bacon sandwich
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 08:44:48 PM
Where do we stand on mayonnaise? and a bit of sliced tomato to go on your bacon sarnieAh - I think that is acceptable - and in that case the bread can be brown and lettuce can be added.
In our house that is called a vegetarian bacon sandwich
And the bacon should be cooked, but cold
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 08:53:55 PM
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 08:57:24 PM
Fucking Hell. Lettuce. Mayonnaise. Waiting until it's cold? Is this what Gerrard has done to this once proud forum?Hes increased our standards - healthy food - like a BLT. Pretty sure thats what most top sports people eat pre game.
I cant do hot stuff with mayo - Im always convinced it will curdle it
Post by: Jon Crofts on April 15, 2022, 09:00:26 PM
Red on bacon sandwiches, brown on sausage ones. A simple rule to live your life by.
Has to be the other way around Risso
There's never, ever any excuse for red sauce on anything at all. It is the work of the devil.
Is the right answer.
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 09:11:23 PM
Tried Beef Olives for the first time - beatiful with a bit of english mustard and a cup of tea
To attempt Risso levels, the hotness of the mustard cut through the saturated fats beautifully, and the tea stopped the excess fats from congealing in your mouth
Post by: DrGonzo on April 15, 2022, 09:15:32 PM
Post by: markeeeebeeee2005 on April 15, 2022, 09:47:31 PM
You can't just keep sacking managers. He's playing with a squad that isn't his. Who would you get to replace him? Rafa is unemployed? Would that make you happier? How about Dyche? He's looking for a job... How's about we give a manager 2 seasons to implement his ideas rather than knee jerk kicking out as soon as a few fixtures go against us. Football fans really boil my piss.
Ketchup, brown sauce or neither?
Post by: LeeB on April 15, 2022, 09:53:15 PM
Butter shouldn't be on a bacon sandwich, either.
Hear fucking hear
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 10:00:33 PM
You can't just keep sacking managers. He's playing with a squad that isn't his. Who would you get to replace him? Rafa is unemployed? Would that make you happier? How about Dyche? He's looking for a job... How's about we give a manager 2 seasons to implement his ideas rather than knee jerk kicking out as soon as a few fixtures go against us. Football fans really boil my piss.
Well, yes, if you list loads of terrible options that there is no chance of us considering, he looks more appealing.
I don't want us to keep sacking managers. I want us to appoint a World class one now and go on and win loads. Gerrard wasn't that man in November and he isn't now. Get rid.
Now, back on topic, I don't think I really understand what a beef olive is. Will have to Google.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 15, 2022, 10:08:11 PM
How's about we give a manager 2 seasons to implement his ideas rather than knee jerk kicking out as soon as a few fixtures go against us. Football fans really boil my piss.
Ketchup, brown sauce or neither?
Think he was busy telling us how he procures his salt.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 15, 2022, 10:10:37 PM
Now, back on topic, I don't think I really understand what a beef olive is. Will have to Google.
Me neither, Google tells me they look and sound delicious.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 10:10:44 PM
https://greatbritishrecipes.com/beef-olives/
I wouldn't have them on a bacon sandwich though. Risso probably would.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 15, 2022, 11:31:43 PM
Butter shouldn't be on a bacon sandwich, either.
Hear fucking hear
What fresh hell is this? I disagree with cd and LeeB.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 11:33:36 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 15, 2022, 11:35:50 PM
Dip the bread in the fat, don't put butter on. It is the Brummie way and, therefore, the correct way. You'll never look back.
Given your Scottish heritage, you'll forgive me if I avoid your advice when it comes to recently-boiling saturated fats.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 11:37:57 PM
My Scottish family all butter their bacon sandwiches, the heathens.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 15, 2022, 11:44:20 PM
Oh no I won't. You'll be hanging around with Risso chucking ketchup on your quesadillas if you're not careful.
My Scottish family all butter their bacon sandwiches, the heathens.
Probably protestants.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2022, 11:47:29 PM
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 11:52:49 PM
Conclusion: they sound quite good.They were pretty special.
https://greatbritishrecipes.com/beef-olives/
I wouldn't have them on a bacon sandwich though. Risso probably would.
I assume they also put them in there martinis
Post by: Beard82 on April 15, 2022, 11:55:14 PM
Ah wait - they sound much better - mine just had beef sausage meat in and no gravy. They were still good - but think them with Stilton in would be amazingConclusion: they sound quite good.They were pretty special.
https://greatbritishrecipes.com/beef-olives/
I wouldn't have them on a bacon sandwich though. Risso probably would.
I assume they also put them in there martinis
Post by: olaftab on April 16, 2022, 12:13:55 AM
You can't just keep sacking managers. He's playing with a squad that isn't his. Who would you get to replace him? Rafa is unemployed? Would that make you happier? How about Dyche? He's looking for a job... How's about we give a manager 2 seasons to implement his ideas rather than knee jerk kicking out as soon as a few fixtures go against us. Football fans really boil my piss.Just to make choices totally unpalatable why have you left out Neil Warnock and Harry Redknapp?
Post by: Drummond on April 16, 2022, 12:15:11 AM
That being the case, the people wanting him in and out appear to need to shift positions pretty quickly....
Post by: Drummond on April 16, 2022, 12:15:58 AM
Post by: Pat McMahon on April 16, 2022, 12:19:26 AM
I can't remember which religion they are, but they burned Edward Woodward.
If I’d been on a small island with Britt Ekland back in those days I’d have burned a few of the other blokes too
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 16, 2022, 12:29:19 AM
I'm pretty sure Gerrard has banned ketchup hasn't he?
That being the case, the people wanting him in and out appear to need to shift positions pretty quickly....
Give him a ten year contract.
Post by: Rory on April 16, 2022, 01:04:37 AM
For what it's worth, if a meal requires sauce, I always go for Reggae Reggae, and anyone who disagrees is a massive racist.
Post by: Villatillidie1982 on April 16, 2022, 01:21:14 AM
Post by: tony scott on April 16, 2022, 04:03:36 AM
Post by: Mister E on April 16, 2022, 08:44:57 AM
We've been over this before, but anyone putting that shite ketchup anywhere near bacon is a fucking savage.Ketchup is a must-have with chips; along with salt and vinegar, obviously.
Ketchup, FFS. It's children's food.
Post by: Rigadon on April 16, 2022, 09:00:46 AM
We should stick with him But not push the boat out in the transfer Market, in this two break with no international calls he has plenty of time to improve the implementation of his playing style
Which will make limited impact if Ings/Watkins continue to miss sitters and Konsa lays chances on for the Leicester centre forwards. I'm not yet 100% convinced by Gerrard but I am convinced formations mean diddly squat when you make basic errors.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on April 16, 2022, 09:21:57 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 16, 2022, 10:04:24 AM
I can't remember which religion they are, but they burned Edward Woodward.
If I’d been on a small island with Britt Ekland back in those days I’d have burned a few of the other blokes too
Ha, I would have as well.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 16, 2022, 10:04:50 AM
Anyone who calls it ketchup is obviously some kind of sex case. It’s red sauce.
Despite 'red sauce' being the nomenclature of choice the term 'ketchup' can be useful on occasion but anyone who calls it 'catsup' is a nonce.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 16, 2022, 10:08:00 AM
We've been over this before, but anyone putting that shite ketchup anywhere near bacon is a fucking savage.Ketchup is a must-have with chips; along with salt and vinegar, obviously.
Ketchup, FFS. It's children's food.
Absolute savage.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 16, 2022, 10:12:35 AM
I last read this thread at about 8 this morning. What in the name of Christ has happened?
Sounds like you're playing ketchup.
Post by: Beard82 on April 16, 2022, 10:26:27 AM
Too goodI last read this thread at about 8 this morning. What in the name of Christ has happened?
Sounds like you're playing ketchup.
Post by: Drummond on April 16, 2022, 06:38:36 PM
Post by: Risso on April 16, 2022, 06:48:59 PM
14th. Two places better off than under Dean Smith. Everton and Leeds overtaken.
You’re not getting upset because other teams have played this weekend and we haven’t? Because that would be a bit weird.
Post by: Drummond on April 16, 2022, 06:56:26 PM
14th. Two places better off than under Dean Smith. Everton and Leeds overtaken.
You’re not getting upset because other teams have played this weekend and we haven’t? Because that would be a bit weird.
No darling. Though we are being overtaken, so I'll look forward to us stuffing Leicester next week to balance things a bit.
Post by: eamonn on April 16, 2022, 07:08:29 PM
Post by: Allan C on April 16, 2022, 07:56:12 PM
We should stick with him But not push the boat out in the transfer Market, in this two break with no international calls he has plenty of time to improve the implementation of his playing styleThat is exactly what we shouldn’t do. If we stick with him then we have to fully back him and get who he wants in. If we’re not going to do that then he should be sacked before we end up with a squad of three different managers who are a complete mish-mash.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 16, 2022, 08:32:35 PM
Exactly.We should stick with him But not push the boat out in the transfer Market, in this two break with no international calls he has plenty of time to improve the implementation of his playing styleThat is exactly what we shouldn’t do. If we stick with him then we have to fully back him and get who he wants in. If we’re not going to do that then he should be sacked before we end up with a squad of three different managers who are a complete mish-mash.
What is the point in giving someone the job and then not backing him?
Have people been spending too much time in the sun today?
Post by: Aldridge Villa on April 16, 2022, 09:24:13 PM
Post by: Taylor on April 16, 2022, 09:30:55 PM
Worrying that Arsenal have pretty much lost every game still beating us and Spurs losing today despite destroying us last week. Wolves away we were poor too. Want him to stay and do well but still have a nagging suspicion of a toxic undercurrent within the squad which has been festering since day 1 of this stop start season.Yep, spurs got beat by a team we did the double over and the Arse got beat by a team we dicked 4-0 at Villa park. That’s football.
Post by: Aldridge Villa on April 16, 2022, 09:32:22 PM
Post by: Taylor on April 16, 2022, 09:39:01 PM
That makes it fine thenObviously not, but worrying about how other teams perform against teams that have beaten us isn’t good for your health.
Post by: Aldridge Villa on April 16, 2022, 09:40:41 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 16, 2022, 09:58:12 PM
14th. Two places better off than under Dean Smith. Everton and Leeds overtaken.
You’re not getting upset because other teams have played this weekend and we haven’t? Because that would be a bit weird.
Bit of a moot point as we'd have had Liverpool at home today in normal circumstances so not really a match you can expect much from in respective forms. Perhaps we'll rouse ourselves in early May when they visit but I expect not.
Newcastle need to beat either tired Leicester or Palace who've got the cup SF to go above us in next four days. Imagine thinking that would be possible in mid December.
Whichever way it's spun us being 14/15th is nowhere near good enough.
Pretty sobering when you look at our last 4 games aswell:
West Ham. Yes they're having another good season but we played them 3 days after they've jus had a taxing away game in Spain. Brentford comfortably beat them after a europa game last week.
Arsenal. Again on a good run when we played them but we had a free week while they played Liverpool. Since then they've lost to three teams who were below us in the table before beating Arsenal.
Wolves. Terrible in first half. Either side of beating us they've lost to Leeds and Newcastle.
Spurs. The only real defence as we were good first half but couldn't score. Brighton however showed today there are ways to shut off their front 3 which they did superbly.
So all in all after adding some decent players in January we haven't kicked on as expected and are way too passive/limited against any competent top 10 team. I'm not convinced spending another 100m + under this manager is going to cut it tbh next season.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 16, 2022, 10:02:03 PM
We should stick with him But not push the boat out in the transfer Market, in this two break with no international calls he has plenty of time to improve the implementation of his playing styleThat is exactly what we shouldn’t do. If we stick with him then we have to fully back him and get who he wants in. If we’re not going to do that then he should be sacked before we end up with a squad of three different managers who are a complete mish-mash.
He's already been backed in January though. Added Coutinho who we'd never have had a hope of signing under DS. Added Digne to replace Targett which produced mixed reaction but I am o.k with and also Chambers who started that defensive purple patch when we kept three straight clean sheets. Yet replaced by Konsa when he could've stayed in the team.
It's not like we'll be replacing every player this summer. Martinez and Cash signed long term deals so they'll obviously be starting every week next season as will in all likelihood McGinn and Ramsey. And I'd say Mings feels fairly secure still so with Digne and hopefully Coutinho full time I don't think they'll be as many changes as expected.
What we really need to get right especially with 5 subs is players off the bench who can make an impact and win us some points as it's all but fizzled out in that respect last three months.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 17, 2022, 12:58:21 AM
Whichever way it's spun us being 14/15th is nowhere near good enough.
Yep, finishing 14th or 15th would absolutely not be acceptable, nowhere near, and Gerrard would have to bear a good chunk of the blame for that.
Post by: robbo1874 on April 17, 2022, 07:07:15 AM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 17, 2022, 07:24:46 AM
I think all managers need at least a year, maybe more to make things right. These are very much the same bunch of players that were streaky under Smith.
Post by: Allan C on April 17, 2022, 08:03:21 AM
Worrying that Arsenal have pretty much lost every game still beating us and Spurs losing today despite destroying us last week. Wolves away we were poor too. Want him to stay and do well but still have a nagging suspicion of a toxic undercurrent within the squad which has been festering since day 1 of this stop start season.It’s not worrying at all. It just proves to me that barring the top three (two?) there’s not a great deal between any of the teams from 4th to where we are. Anyone in those positions will beat anyone on a given day.
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 17, 2022, 08:18:06 AM
Worrying that Arsenal have pretty much lost every game still beating us and Spurs losing today despite destroying us last week. Wolves away we were poor too. Want him to stay and do well but still have a nagging suspicion of a toxic undercurrent within the squad which has been festering since day 1 of this stop start season.It’s not worrying at all. It just proves to me that barring the top three (two?) there’s not a great deal between any of the teams from 4th to where we are. Anyone in those positions will beat anyone on a given day.
And yet we can't beat anybody in the top 8 (let alone draw with them) on any given day, since our change of manager.
Post by: Risso on April 17, 2022, 08:54:59 AM
I don’t want Gerrard out, but something just doesn’t sit right with him and I’m not sure what it is yet. I think it may be the obvious intention to bring in big name, slightly past it players at the expense of bringing our youth through. There’s no real evidence of it, but you could point to the likes of Chuk and wonder whether he’d have got more minutes under Smith. Dunno, just not sure about Gerrard.
There's no evidence of it at all. Chuk has already got loads more games and minutes in the league under Gerrard than he did Smith, so that' a really easy one to answer. As for the obvious intention to bring in big name, slightly past it players, do you mean Ashley Young and Danny Ings? Because you can't possibly mean Coutinho who has been superb.
Post by: Clampy on April 17, 2022, 09:28:59 AM
I don’t want Gerrard out, but something just doesn’t sit right with him and I’m not sure what it is yet. I think it may be the obvious intention to bring in big name, slightly past it players at the expense of bringing our youth through. There’s no real evidence of it, but you could point to the likes of Chuk and wonder whether he’d have got more minutes under Smith. Dunno, just not sure about Gerrard.
There's no evidence of it at all. Chuk has already got loads more games and minutes in the league under Gerrard than he did Smith, so that' a really easy one to answer. As for the obvious intention to bring in big name, slightly past it players, do you mean Ashley Young and Danny Ings? Because you can't possibly mean Coutinho who has been superb.
You've said that about Chuck before and it don't sound right to me. Loads more games? I can't remember the last time he got on the pitch under Gerrard.
Post by: Risso on April 17, 2022, 11:56:26 AM
You've said that about Chuck before and it don't sound right to me. Loads more games? I can't remember the last time he got on the pitch under Gerrard.
If only there were sites where you could check league appearance data if you have the memory of a goldfish, but here you go:
Under Smith:
Brentford - 63 minutes
Under Gerrard:
Man City - 23 mins
Leicester - 12 mins
Norwich - 7 mins
Chelsea - 16 mins
Man U - 14 mins
Everton - 16 mins
Leeds - 31 mins
Newcastle - 6 mins
I don't know why he hasn't featured since, maybe it's something to do with his contract, or not looking great in training, or the fact he hasn't done a whole lot most of the time when he has come on, who knows. But he's featured in 8 of Gerrard's games, so saying that there's been a change in focus away from the youth following Smith's departurs is more made up rubbish.
Post by: Clampy on April 17, 2022, 12:28:25 PM
You've said that about Chuck before and it don't sound right to me. Loads more games? I can't remember the last time he got on the pitch under Gerrard.
If only there were sites where you could check league appearance data if you have the memory of a goldfish, but here you go:
Under Smith:
Brentford - 63 minutes
Under Gerrard:
Man City - 23 mins
Leicester - 12 mins
Norwich - 7 mins
Chelsea - 16 mins
Man U - 14 mins
Everton - 16 mins
Leeds - 31 mins
Newcastle - 6 mins
I don't know why he hasn't featured since, maybe it's something to do with his contract, or not looking great in training, or the fact he hasn't done a whole lot most of the time when he has come on, who knows. But he's featured in 8 of Gerrard's games, so saying that there's been a change in focus away from the youth following Smith's departurs is more made up rubbish.
Well, you missed out the Spurs game last season and the two League Cup games this season under Smith. That website of yours aye very good.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 17, 2022, 12:29:19 PM
You've said that about Chuck before and it don't sound right to me. Loads more games? I can't remember the last time he got on the pitch under Gerrard.I don't know why he hasn't featured since, maybe it's something to do with his contract, or not looking great in training, or the fact he hasn't done a whole lot most of the time when he has come on, who knows.
It might have something to do with the fact that he looks half arsed mostly when he’s come on and he’s stalling on a new contract, kind of like he thinks he’s something special already and hasn’t got anything to prove when he gets his opportunity. Grealish was like it at one point and then eventually got the work ethic once Terry came to the club and of course in the end he turned out extremely well for us for a few years before he fucked off. But for every youngster that turns out well after a underwhelming start there are many that just disappear and we can’t afford to fuck around when we’re scrapping for points and managers are fighting for or trying to build reputations.
Post by: Risso on April 17, 2022, 01:04:37 PM
You've said that about Chuck before and it don't sound right to me. Loads more games? I can't remember the last time he got on the pitch under Gerrard.
If only there were sites where you could check league appearance data if you have the memory of a goldfish, but here you go:
Under Smith:
Brentford - 63 minutes
Under Gerrard:
Man City - 23 mins
Leicester - 12 mins
Norwich - 7 mins
Chelsea - 16 mins
Man U - 14 mins
Everton - 16 mins
Leeds - 31 mins
Newcastle - 6 mins
I don't know why he hasn't featured since, maybe it's something to do with his contract, or not looking great in training, or the fact he hasn't done a whole lot most of the time when he has come on, who knows. But he's featured in 8 of Gerrard's games, so saying that there's been a change in focus away from the youth following Smith's departurs is more made up rubbish.
Well, you missed out the Spurs game last season and the two League Cup games this season under Smith. That website of yours aye very good.
It's weird, you can remember back to posts people made 10 years ago to bring them up, but not a run of actual Villa matches a few weeks ago. And I specifically mentioned league games, as Gerrard wasn't afforded the luxury of cup games against lower league opposition in earlier rounds. One game last season doesn't change the overall argument one iota either.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 17, 2022, 01:07:45 PM
Post by: Ads on April 17, 2022, 01:14:50 PM
Post by: Clampy on April 17, 2022, 01:16:12 PM
You've said that about Chuck before and it don't sound right to me. Loads more games? I can't remember the last time he got on the pitch under Gerrard.
If only there were sites where you could check league appearance data if you have the memory of a goldfish, but here you go:
Under Smith:
Brentford - 63 minutes
Under Gerrard:
Man City - 23 mins
Leicester - 12 mins
Norwich - 7 mins
Chelsea - 16 mins
Man U - 14 mins
Everton - 16 mins
Leeds - 31 mins
Newcastle - 6 mins
I don't know why he hasn't featured since, maybe it's something to do with his contract, or not looking great in training, or the fact he hasn't done a whole lot most of the time when he has come on, who knows. But he's featured in 8 of Gerrard's games, so saying that there's been a change in focus away from the youth following Smith's departurs is more made up rubbish.
Well, you missed out the Spurs game last season and the two League Cup games this season under Smith. That website of yours aye very good.
It's weird, you can remember back to posts people made 10 years ago to bring them up, but not a run of actual Villa matches a few weeks ago. And I specifically mentioned league games, as Gerrard wasn't afforded the luxury of cup games against lower league opposition in earlier rounds. One game last season doesn't change the overall argument one iota either.
Blimey, chill out and calm down. It's a Bank Holiday weekend.
Post by: Drummond on April 17, 2022, 01:25:59 PM
However, I won't pin that in Gerrard because its a complaint I've had about other managers too, Smith included.
My guess is that managers believe in bringing kids into winning teams, but then when they're winning, darent change it.
Anyway, Chukwuemeka is on a similar path to Ramsey last season in my view.
The difference is that Chukwuemeka clearly doesn't want to stay, so why play him?
Post by: achilles on April 17, 2022, 02:23:38 PM
You've said that about Chuck before and it don't sound right to me. Loads more games? I can't remember the last time he got on the pitch under Gerrard.
If only there were sites where you could check league appearance data if you have the memory of a goldfish, but here you go:
Under Smith:
Brentford - 63 minutes
Under Gerrard:
Man City - 23 mins
Leicester - 12 mins
Norwich - 7 mins
Chelsea - 16 mins
Man U - 14 mins
Everton - 16 mins
Leeds - 31 mins
Newcastle - 6 mins
I don't know why he hasn't featured since, maybe it's something to do with his contract, or not looking great in training, or the fact he hasn't done a whole lot most of the time when he has come on, who knows. But he's featured in 8 of Gerrard's games, so saying that there's been a change in focus away from the youth following Smith's departurs is more made up rubbish.
Well, you missed out the Spurs game last season and the two League Cup games this season under Smith. That website of yours aye very good.
It's weird, you can remember back to posts people made 10 years ago to bring them up, but not a run of actual Villa matches a few weeks ago. And I specifically mentioned league games, as Gerrard wasn't afforded the luxury of cup games against lower league opposition in earlier rounds. One game last season doesn't change the overall argument one iota either.
The whole argument is pretty irrelevant as time and development moves on and you could say that Ramsey has had more minutes under Gerrard than DS, which again is totally pointless!
Post by: LeonW on April 17, 2022, 03:39:09 PM
The period when we’ve looked best back in the PL under DS (towards the end of 2019/20 season and start of 2020/21) is when the midfield briefly performed with some consistent standards (particularly Luiz) before returning to the normal inconsistencies we’ve seen either side of that period. I think SG deserves some investment to address this area before he’s fully judged as that could make all the difference to the rest of the side and how it functions. I don’t believe a lot of these players are as bad as some think. Until the midfield is sorted out I don’t think we’ll know.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 17, 2022, 04:26:33 PM
Post by: lovejoy on April 17, 2022, 04:51:46 PM
Post by: Steve67 on April 17, 2022, 04:55:45 PM
Gerrard needs the summer to get a fair crack of the whip. Hand on heart though I don’t feel it’s going to work out for us. His style of play worked for a dominant team like Rangers but at Villa we end up with much of the ball and get picked off by any half decent side.
You're absolute right, he does. But I can't help seeing Tim Sherwood when I look at Gerrard. For the life of me I cannot understand why we didn't go for a ready cooked manager when we had the chance. With all the money and ambition we have, I can't help feeling that we will look back at this Gerrard era and think of it as treading water. I hope i'm wrong. Massively wrong.
Post by: Toronto Villa on April 17, 2022, 05:18:34 PM
I’m not here giving Gerrard a pass. He needs to improve and in this game quickly. And results will determine his time with us. But for anyone to consider firing him or calling him the next Tim Sherwood after a few months is in my opinion very short sighted.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 17, 2022, 05:34:53 PM
Post by: andyh on April 17, 2022, 05:35:39 PM
By this time next year, I’d be quite happy for him to ram those words down by throat though.
Post by: Drummond on April 17, 2022, 05:35:51 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 17, 2022, 05:37:08 PM
15th and below Newcastle. We may not have played this weekend but it's an embarrassment.Improvement needed fast, from Gerrard and every single one of the players.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 17, 2022, 05:37:25 PM
15th and below Newcastle. We may not have played this weekend but it's an embarrassment.
It is indeed.
Post by: Steve67 on April 17, 2022, 07:06:31 PM
Tim Sherwood had never managed a club before. Gerrard has. I know some will immediately point to Scotland and say it’s a two club system, but the Rangers he managed that still had to catch up with Celtic and ultimately win the title. Every manager starts somewhere. Every manager makes errors and has to learn from them. Whether it is the likes of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Pep etc at the top of the food chain, or anyone lower down they all grew from what they learned. Why should we be just tossing aside someone at this stage. And there is literally no guarantee whatsoever that another more reputable, more experienced manager delivers immediate results and success.
I’m not here giving Gerrard a pass. He needs to improve and in this game quickly. And results will determine his time with us. But for anyone to consider firing him or calling him the next Tim Sherwood after a few months is in my opinion very short sighted.
Spurs, arguably a much bigger club than Rangers? I’m not being short sighted, I am simply saying that I can’t see much difference between the two of them at this moment. I like Gerard’s honesty. He needs his own players in this summer and I want him to prove me wrong. For the record, I am happy to back him.
Post by: Beard82 on April 17, 2022, 07:20:10 PM
I have been overly critical of Gerrard - I think it was a risk that didn’t need to be taken. I think we all knew that as soon as Dean went he would be are manager. I hoped we would try to be more ambitious but it is what it is. I think he is in over his head but like TV said - all managers have been at some point
In the big picture, 3 years ago we were in the championship - the success since then has been great. this season has been tough losing Joe and Dean - people who we all had a lot of affection for because we felt a lot of empthy with them - it was a story we loved and it was a great ride and between those two and the owners it felt like we got our club back.
The owners are investing millions in us on and off the pitch - and have done well by us.
This isn’t learner they know how to run a successful sport business and achieve things people didn’t think we’re possible.
If they think we’re going in the wrong direction and not have the right people at the club they will act.
I don’t think it is fair to compare Gerrard to Sherwood - I think our setup is canny enough to see through bullshit
They appointed based on the advise of people they trust - Gerard clearly has clear ideas and plans and is by no means a chancer. This will be hurting him as much as us
He might not work out - but I think the owners realistically have two options
At the point either to back him and give him at least the next season or go in a different direction. I don’t think either is right or wrong. Or rather there are pros and cons of both and they won’t hesitate for a minute to implement what they think is right
I am pretty sure they will back him - and I’ll try my upmost to stay positive. At points we have looked great and if he can work it out and learn a bit quicker then amazing.
Post by: levico on April 17, 2022, 07:52:40 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 17, 2022, 08:39:25 PM
Tim Sherwood had never managed a club before. Gerrard has. I know some will immediately point to Scotland and say it’s a two club system, but the Rangers he managed that still had to catch up with Celtic and ultimately win the title. Every manager starts somewhere. Every manager makes errors and has to learn from them. Whether it is the likes of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Pep etc at the top of the food chain, or anyone lower down they all grew from what they learned. Why should we be just tossing aside someone at this stage. And there is literally no guarantee whatsoever that another more reputable, more experienced manager delivers immediate results and success.
I’m not here giving Gerrard a pass. He needs to improve and in this game quickly. And results will determine his time with us. But for anyone to consider firing him or calling him the next Tim Sherwood after a few months is in my opinion very short sighted.
Spurs, arguably a much bigger club than Rangers?
Not a chance. Both of the Old Firm clubs are bigger than anyone in Premier League except Man Ure and possibly Liverpool. Then you add in the pressure on a manager that comes with being the focus of media attention in Glasgow and there's no comparison.
Post by: berneboy on April 17, 2022, 08:51:23 PM
I’m getting the distinct feeling that this is all going to end badly, either this season or next.Me too.
And expenditure will hold us back a season or two.
.. and then we go again!
Post by: LeonW on April 17, 2022, 09:20:02 PM
Tim Sherwood had never managed a club before. Gerrard has. I know some will immediately point to Scotland and say it’s a two club system, but the Rangers he managed that still had to catch up with Celtic and ultimately win the title. Every manager starts somewhere. Every manager makes errors and has to learn from them. Whether it is the likes of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Pep etc at the top of the food chain, or anyone lower down they all grew from what they learned. Why should we be just tossing aside someone at this stage. And there is literally no guarantee whatsoever that another more reputable, more experienced manager delivers immediate results and success.
I’m not here giving Gerrard a pass. He needs to improve and in this game quickly. And results will determine his time with us. But for anyone to consider firing him or calling him the next Tim Sherwood after a few months is in my opinion very short sighted.
Spurs, arguably a much bigger club than Rangers?
Not a chance. Both of the Old Firm clubs are bigger than anyone in Premier League except Man Ure and possibly Liverpool. Then you add in the pressure on a manager that comes with being the focus of media attention in Glasgow and there's no comparison.
Sorry but i’m biting on this one; what are you basing that view on with regards the Old Firm?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 17, 2022, 09:33:27 PM
Not a chance. Both of the Old Firm clubs are bigger than anyone in Premier League except Man Ure and possibly Liverpool. Then you add in the pressure on a manager that comes with being the focus of media attention in Glasgow and there's no comparison.
Sorry but i’m biting on this one; what are you basing that view on with regards the Old Firm?
People judge the size of clubs in different ways (often depending on what suits their agenda) but I would say both Old Firm teams are way bigger than all but one or two PL clubs (unless your criterion is access to PL TV money). If for example the metric you're using is how many fans they would take to a European final in mainland Europe then I'd argue they're probably 2 of the 3 biggest clubs in the UK. I am curious which English clubs you think are bigger than the 2 Glasgow clubs.
Post by: algy on April 17, 2022, 09:36:20 PM
Nah, not having that.Tim Sherwood had never managed a club before. Gerrard has. I know some will immediately point to Scotland and say it’s a two club system, but the Rangers he managed that still had to catch up with Celtic and ultimately win the title. Every manager starts somewhere. Every manager makes errors and has to learn from them. Whether it is the likes of Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Pep etc at the top of the food chain, or anyone lower down they all grew from what they learned. Why should we be just tossing aside someone at this stage. And there is literally no guarantee whatsoever that another more reputable, more experienced manager delivers immediate results and success.
I’m not here giving Gerrard a pass. He needs to improve and in this game quickly. And results will determine his time with us. But for anyone to consider firing him or calling him the next Tim Sherwood after a few months is in my opinion very short sighted.
Spurs, arguably a much bigger club than Rangers?
Not a chance. Both of the Old Firm clubs are bigger than anyone in Premier League except Man Ure and possibly Liverpool. Then you add in the pressure on a manager that comes with being the focus of media attention in Glasgow and there's no comparison.
Depends on your definition of what a 'big club' is I guess, and for sure I'd put both Celtic and "Rangers" in the big club category, but they're dragged down by playing in the Scottish League. We were a bigger pull *as a Championship club* than Celtic, as evidenced by Super John McGinn.
Right now, I'd put money on any of the PL bottom 3 being a more attractive proposition than playing for the Old Firm.
Post by: LeonW on April 17, 2022, 09:48:12 PM
Not a chance. Both of the Old Firm clubs are bigger than anyone in Premier League except Man Ure and possibly Liverpool. Then you add in the pressure on a manager that comes with being the focus of media attention in Glasgow and there's no comparison.
Sorry but i’m biting on this one; what are you basing that view on with regards the Old Firm?
People judge the size of clubs in different ways (often depending on what suits their agenda) but I would say both Old Firm teams are way bigger than all but one or two PL clubs (unless your criterion is access to PL TV money). If for example the metric you're using is how many fans they would take to a European final in mainland Europe then I'd argue they're probably 2 of the 3 biggest clubs in the UK. I am curious which English clubs you think are bigger than the 2 Glasgow clubs.
Unfortunately - and as much as it really pains me to say it- Chelsea would definitely be one. Those two European Cups they have in their trophy cabinet are pretty compelling evidence for me, though, relatively speaking, they’ve only been a real force for a shortish period.
I wouldn’t go by fans you can take away mind. Eintract Frankfurt took a shed load away to the Nou Camp last week but I wouldn’t consider them a big club. There are probably other clubs in England that would say they could take a shed load on tour (like Newcastle?) but again, it’s not enough.
I’d say European trophies in the cabinet. It is a debate for sure though.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 17, 2022, 09:57:21 PM
Not a chance. Both of the Old Firm clubs are bigger than anyone in Premier League except Man Ure and possibly Liverpool. Then you add in the pressure on a manager that comes with being the focus of media attention in Glasgow and there's no comparison.
Sorry but i’m biting on this one; what are you basing that view on with regards the Old Firm?
People judge the size of clubs in different ways (often depending on what suits their agenda) but I would say both Old Firm teams are way bigger than all but one or two PL clubs (unless your criterion is access to PL TV money). If for example the metric you're using is how many fans they would take to a European final in mainland Europe then I'd argue they're probably 2 of the 3 biggest clubs in the UK. I am curious which English clubs you think are bigger than the 2 Glasgow clubs.
Through gritted teeth, I agree with this.
Not to say, though, that managing either one of them (alone) is sufficient preparation for managing in a competitive league. MON was ready because of his Leicester experience - as was Rodgers after Liverpool and Swansea. Gerrard wasn't/isn't.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 17, 2022, 09:59:34 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 17, 2022, 10:04:54 PM
Nah, not having that.
Depends on your definition of what a 'big club' is I guess, and for sure I'd put both Celtic and "Rangers" in the big club category, but they're dragged down by playing in the Scottish League. We were a bigger pull *as a Championship club* than Celtic, as evidenced by Super John McGinn.
Right now, I'd put money on any of the PL bottom 3 being a more attractive proposition than playing for the Old Firm.
Well we wouldn't have got McGinn if Celtic had gone to 2.75m for him instead of lowballing Hibs at 2.25m.
I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your post but that is down to PL clubs having more money. Bournemouth in the PL might have had more 'pull' than us in the Championship or Sunderland in League 1 but no one would argue they're a bigger club. As I alluded to, the PL money distorts things but I would say the Old Firm are bigger clubs using most of the other common metrics.
Post by: Beard82 on April 17, 2022, 10:06:48 PM
But Conte’s not going to manage any of them over spurs.
I think Rangers was a good start for Gerrard - as it taught him how to cope with a huge club and expecting fans. But the goal was realistic - and he did himself a massive favour by stopping Celtics league winning run when he did. But he couldnt have really failed.
The big difference he faces at Villa or in the PL is the expectations are a huge challenge. Villa fans will have deemed he failed if he doesnt get us top half next season.
I guess the advantage he has is the media will judge him far less harshly than Villa fans, as I have noticed - a lot of the media were saying his first job was to keep us in the PL, which I personally thought was never in question
Barring getting us relegated sky etc will spin it as a success
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 17, 2022, 10:12:48 PM
Unfortunately - and as much as it really pains me to say it- Chelsea would definitely be one. Those two European Cups they have in their trophy cabinet are pretty compelling evidence for me, though, relatively speaking, they’ve only been a real force for a shortish period.
I wouldn’t go by fans you can take away mind. Eintract Frankfurt took a shed load away to the Nou Camp last week but I wouldn’t consider them a big club. There are probably other clubs in England that would say they could take a shed load on tour (like Newcastle?) but again, it’s not enough.
I’d say European trophies in the cabinet. It is a debate for sure though.
That's fair enough and as CL says it's mostly a pointless debate (albeit one that has been had by football fans down the ages).
I just don't think there are many English clubs that would sell out their 50k and 60k stadiums to watch the level of football and competition that the Scottish league currently offers up. Maybe Man Ure but a lot of that would be down to Fergie's 20 tears of PL success being beamed across the world and the day trippers it brings.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 17, 2022, 10:34:18 PM
Post by: Jon Crofts on April 17, 2022, 10:46:48 PM
Post by: LeonW on April 17, 2022, 11:18:10 PM
Unfortunately - and as much as it really pains me to say it- Chelsea would definitely be one. Those two European Cups they have in their trophy cabinet are pretty compelling evidence for me, though, relatively speaking, they’ve only been a real force for a shortish period.
I wouldn’t go by fans you can take away mind. Eintract Frankfurt took a shed load away to the Nou Camp last week but I wouldn’t consider them a big club. There are probably other clubs in England that would say they could take a shed load on tour (like Newcastle?) but again, it’s not enough.
I’d say European trophies in the cabinet. It is a debate for sure though.
That's fair enough and as CL says it's mostly a pointless debate (albeit one that has been had by football fans down the ages).
I just don't think there are many English clubs that would sell out their 50k and 60k stadiums to watch the level of football and competition that the Scottish league currently offers up. Maybe Man Ure but a lot of that would be down to Fergie's 20 tears of PL success being beamed across the world and the day trippers it brings.
I don’t think it’s entirely pointless based upon the (currently) failed Super League proposals last year and the current UEFA changes to the champions league qualification process based upon ‘historical performance’ b*llsh*t.
Post by: Pat McMahon on April 17, 2022, 11:44:27 PM
I agree with BV re Rangers and Celtic. They have incredible networks of supporters clubs across the globe, though in my experience they are drawn from the British and Irish diaspora.
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 17, 2022, 11:50:53 PM
I think Liverpool and Manyoo have truly international appeal - they attract fans who have absolutely no attachment to England or English football. The only continent I have been to where they didn’t seem to penetrate was S America, where local football ruled the roost. No other English club comes close, though I can see Chelsea closing the gap if they maintain their zillionaire funding for another decade.you find alot support Manchester United or Liverpool as well,in Ireland that is
I agree with BV re Rangers and Celtic. They have incredible networks of supporters clubs across the globe, though in my experience they are drawn from the British and Irish diaspora.
Post by: Rigadon on April 17, 2022, 11:56:51 PM
Post by: robbo1874 on April 18, 2022, 01:35:35 AM
well there is evidence, because he hasn’t even been on as a sub in the last couple of months, as far as I recall.I don’t want Gerrard out, but something just doesn’t sit right with him and I’m not sure what it is yet. I think it may be the obvious intention to bring in big name, slightly past it players at the expense of bringing our youth through. There’s no real evidence of it, but you could point to the likes of Chuk and wonder whether he’d have got more minutes under Smith. Dunno, just not sure about Gerrard.
There's no evidence of it at all. Chuk has already got loads more games and minutes in the league under Gerrard than he did Smith, so that' a really easy one to answer. As for the obvious intention to bring in big name, slightly past it players, do you mean Ashley Young and Danny Ings? Because you can't possibly mean Coutinho who has been superb.
Re: the big name slightly past it players, I wasn’t referring to Coutinho, who has been at times brilliant, but also struggled to make an impact in at least two matches I’ve watched. It was more Gerrard’s comments after one of the recent losses that led me to think that.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 18, 2022, 12:20:51 PM
Smith seemed to buy in to what we were doing, or trying to do, with the whole blueprint or whatever shite buzzword they gave it, of having a defined style of play and bringing in players and mangers to suit that style whilst promoting youth after massive investment in that area rather than rip it up each time. I'm sure there's interviews with Perslow saying this exact thing.
Now we're seemingly doing a total 180 on all of that with a manger with a totally different attempted style, rendering some of our expensive players obsolete/sidelined. Saying that if these players can't do what he wants to "fix it", he'll buy players who will. We needed a change of manager, but I don't think that we were broken and in need of a massive repair job as he's alluding to.
If things start to go sour and he has to work with what he's got, I can see him flouncing off MON style to protect his rep leaving us with Habib Beye type dross (maybe not quite as appalling as that) on £35k a week contributing fuck all, leaving it for the next manager to mop up after him. tbf we are a bit of a graveyard for managers.
Interesting to see what happens in the summer as he's 99% going to get time and a pot of dosh, barring an epic fail in what's left of this season. Let's just get this season over and done with, with hopefully a smattering of progress shown in the games that are left.
To finish with the usual disclaimer, I'd love to sign some massive names in the summer that make me piss my pants in excitement, forgetting everything I've just written, him to be a roaring success and ending up leaving us in a better state.
Post by: Risso on April 18, 2022, 01:17:08 PM
I reckon Gerrard is more committed to the image and reputation of Steven Gerrard than he is to the 'Villa Project' hence why he wants players for instant success. It's when we're losing and he slumps in his chair with his arms folded as if it's nothing to do with him at all, which is annoying me.
Smith seemed to buy in to what we were doing, or trying to do, with the whole blueprint or whatever shite buzzword they gave it, of having a defined style of play and bringing in players and mangers to suit that style whilst promoting youth after massive investment in that area rather than rip it up each time. I'm sure there's interviews with Perslow saying this exact thing.
Now we're seemingly doing a total 180 on all of that with a manger with a totally different attempted style, rendering some of our expensive players obsolete/sidelined.
Smith was having an absolute nightmare trying to fit in the players that were bought this summer, it's part of the reason he got the sack after 11 games. He tried 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 5-3-2, 3-4-3 and 4-4-2, mostly with very little success. I'm not blaming Smith for this as I think the Director of Football had a nightmare in the summer to be honest. That's obviously said with the benefit of hindsight, but we still didn't buy the defensive midfielder we needed, and trying to replace Greasy ended up being very patchy.
Post by: Skerra on April 18, 2022, 01:20:27 PM
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2022, 01:26:30 PM
This season has been disappointing and we need to be frank about where our weaknesses are. I think too much is made of an overhaul or a cull. We need better centre halves, we need better defensive midfield cover, we need better chance conversion upfront. That will give us a better chance of gaining increased consistency.
The league is riddled with it. We're with a clutch of clubs who are stupifyingly inconsistent. I don't think the solutions to our problems are revolutionary.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 18, 2022, 01:32:16 PM
I reckon Gerrard is more committed to the image and reputation of Steven Gerrard than he is to the 'Villa Project' hence why he wants players for instant success. It's when we're losing and he slumps in his chair with his arms folded as if it's nothing to do with him at all, which is annoying me.
Smith seemed to buy in to what we were doing, or trying to do, with the whole blueprint or whatever shite buzzword they gave it, of having a defined style of play and bringing in players and mangers to suit that style whilst promoting youth after massive investment in that area rather than rip it up each time. I'm sure there's interviews with Perslow saying this exact thing.
Now we're seemingly doing a total 180 on all of that with a manger with a totally different attempted style, rendering some of our expensive players obsolete/sidelined.
Smith was having an absolute nightmare trying to fit in the players that were bought this summer, it's part of the reason he got the sack after 11 games. He tried 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 5-3-2, 3-4-3 and 4-4-2, mostly with very little success. I'm not blaming Smith for this as I think the Director of Football had a nightmare in the summer to be honest. That's obviously said with the benefit of hindsight, but we still didn't buy the defensive midfielder we needed, and trying to replace Greasy ended up being very patchy.
This set of players seems even less suited to Gerrard than Smith, which makes his appointment more baffling.
Post by: Risso on April 18, 2022, 01:33:52 PM
This set of players seems even less suited to Gerrard than Smith, which makes his appointment more baffling.
Smith got 10 points from 11 games with these players. A difference opinion is one thing, but the facts just don't back that assertion one bit.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 18, 2022, 01:51:07 PM
This set of players seems even less suited to Gerrard than Smith, which makes his appointment more baffling.
Smith got 10 points from 11 games with these players. A difference opinion is one thing, but the facts just don't back that assertion one bit.
One of Smith's complaints was the injuries to the new players and he didn't get much of a chance to use them together properly. How true that was, I can't really remember.
Gerrard has come in and got Coutinho in which was a massive boost, his impact alone is probably worth about 6 points. Buendia had also seemed to be getting up to speed which takes game time. Smith did seem to lose the plot a bit with scattergun formations and his time was very much up for me.
We had Trez, El Ghazi, Traore, and then spent big on another winger in the summer, but Gerrard doesn't play with wingers. He might throw them on at 70 mins if we're losing to see what happens.
He just seems a bizarre fit for where we are.
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2022, 01:58:06 PM
Post by: Steve67 on April 18, 2022, 02:06:23 PM
Cash and Digne offer more consistent attacking quality than any of our wingers.
And that's probably the reason why Gerrard has dispensed with the wingers. We may see a bit of a change when we have some protection for the midfield, although I doubt it. If our wingers are not playing well, they offer nothing else to the game. Cash and Digne have a job to do in defence but get forward well and with better strikers and Ramsey, Coutinho getting amongst the attack, we will be in a better place.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 18, 2022, 02:13:22 PM
Cash has looked good under Gerrard, Digne I haven't really seen enough to say he's £25m better than Targett.
Post by: Steve67 on April 18, 2022, 02:17:38 PM
Post by: tony scott on April 18, 2022, 02:26:07 PM
Post by: Goldenballs on April 18, 2022, 02:31:43 PM
A fair few penalties for El Ghazi I think though Goldenballs? Very inconsistent player.
Yeah probably tbf. Just seems odd to bring in a manager who doesn't use wingers into a team with about £60m worth of them.
If it was a manager like Poch or Conte then I'd be OK with it, for a gamble like Gerrard, not so much.
Anyway, happy easter to all, I'm going back to mopping up my sons sick off the sofa.
Post by: Beard82 on April 18, 2022, 04:02:24 PM
I wonder in the Interview process, if S G was asked if he could work with the current squad using his preferred playing style.I like to think it is like the interviews for your first job - SG coming in with his Record of Achievement and a reference from Klopp
- Whats your proudest achievement
- what’s your biggest weakness
- where do you see yourself in 5 years (guess we know the answer to it)
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 18, 2022, 08:11:56 PM
I wonder in the Interview process, if S G was asked if he could work with the current squad using his preferred playing style.
If there was an interview I would imagine it consisted of "When can you start?"
Post by: LeonW on April 18, 2022, 08:39:23 PM
I wonder in the Interview process, if S G was asked if he could work with the current squad using his preferred playing style.
I would have thought it would have been either SG outlining how he would incorporate last summer’s record signings into a tactical framework (which isn’t currently happening) or that he was going to do things his way and that those signings may have to be moved on/fall by the way side.
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 18, 2022, 09:00:57 PM
I wonder in the Interview process, if S G was asked if he could work with the current squad using his preferred playing style.
You’d hope so wouldn’t you? Not too many business’ that would write off £100m in such a short space of time. The jury’s out but it’s not looking promising is it?
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2022, 09:09:02 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 18, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 18, 2022, 09:19:28 PM
The interview lasted 5 or 6 hours apparently.
Yeah, I read something about that, the candidates had to give a presentation of some sort.
STEVIE G AND THE .PPT
EDIT: Fuck you, word filter.
Post by: olaftab on April 18, 2022, 09:19:37 PM
The interview lasted 5 or 6 hours apparently.
The lunch at Le Gavroche usually takes about 3 hours.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 18, 2022, 09:48:32 PM
The interview lasted 5 or 6 hours apparently.
He really says "eeeerm" a lot, doesn't he?
Post by: Drummond on April 18, 2022, 10:31:09 PM
So at least it's not relegation form.
Post by: eamonn on April 18, 2022, 10:44:52 PM
Gary Mac is a decent man and I've no doubt "gets" the club from seeing it enter the decade of abyss in 2011 but what are his natural attributes as a coach?
You get excited reading articles about how intelligent and hard-working Mickey Beale is ; in November The Athletic had a long-read about his prowess as a football thinker, including the time he had coached in South America, away from his wife and newborn just so he could further his education. After that kind of diligence, you expect him to find an extra 20% from our army of talented, under-performing players a piece of piss, after a few months in the job.
Instead...the Villa way - any shining light is only ever really a mere flicker and soon enough we're back to being on a par to where we were before, having thrown money on a big new background team and two top internationals in the first window.
Post by: Behind Bluenose Lines on April 18, 2022, 10:54:30 PM
I blame Purslow if this goes tits up. He's just a PR slut. It's not impressive.You'll have to get into the queue: I blamed Purslow when we took him on in the first place!
Post by: artvandelay on April 18, 2022, 11:55:07 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 19, 2022, 12:01:44 AM
The interview lasted 5 or 6 hours apparently.
The lunch at Le Gavroche usually takes about 3 hours.
Given that he will be here for some time Le Manoir aux Quat’Saisons would have been more appropriate.
Post by: brontebilly on April 19, 2022, 12:59:30 AM
Cash and Digne offer more consistent attacking quality than any of our wingers.
Digne hasn't offered anything so far
Nor to be fair have Traore, Bailey or Buendia (when selected in the position he was signed to play, right of a 3).
Post by: paul_e on April 19, 2022, 01:01:49 AM
Just to confirm, TSM1, arguably our worst manager post war, arrived here with a better pedigree from 'Rangers' than SG has? For those who want to give him the window, presumably based on his past performance?
But with a recent relegation on his CV which should've been the reason to swerve hard.
I want to give him the summer because i don't think you can fully judge a manager with so little experience without letting him have a preseason. A good preseason can be a game changer and, on the other side, teams that have a bad preseason almost inevitably sack the manager before Christmas.
Post by: Rory on April 19, 2022, 02:16:56 AM
Just to confirm, TSM1, arguably our worst manager post war, arrived here with a better pedigree from 'Rangers' than SG has? For those who want to give him the window, presumably based on his past performance?
I'm no fan of McLeish, but 'worst manager post war' seems a little harsh. There are at least three worse than him since.
Post by: Flin5tone on April 19, 2022, 02:26:14 AM
Post by: CT Villan on April 19, 2022, 02:51:28 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/s9VZgcY/Wiki-Villa-Managers.png) (https://ibb.co/s9VZgcY)
Post by: Rory on April 19, 2022, 03:25:42 AM
Here's the manager list from Wiki, make of it what you will, but there are 2 worse than TSM1 by win % [click to enlarge]...
(https://i.ibb.co/s9VZgcY/Wiki-Villa-Managers.png) (https://ibb.co/s9VZgcY)
Gerrard doesn't come out of that looking great, but Christ almighty, what a fucking shambles we were 2013-16.
Post by: algy on April 19, 2022, 06:03:15 AM
That only tells half the story though. Going off that, our best 3 post war managers have been Graham Taylor mk.1, Steve Bruce, and Tony Barton.Here's the manager list from Wiki, make of it what you will, but there are 2 worse than TSM1 by win % [click to enlarge]...
(https://i.ibb.co/s9VZgcY/Wiki-Villa-Managers.png) (https://ibb.co/s9VZgcY)
Gerrard doesn't come out of that looking great, but Christ almighty, what a fucking shambles we were 2013-16.
Certainly wouldn't question the man that won us the European Cup being there, or SGT. But Steve Bruce ...
Post by: rob_bridge on April 19, 2022, 06:10:09 AM
Post by: robbo1874 on April 19, 2022, 07:46:05 AM
I think Liverpool and Manyoo have truly international appeal - they attract fans who have absolutely no attachment to England or English football. The only continent I have been to where they didn’t seem to penetrate was S America, where local football ruled the roost. No other English club comes close, though I can see Chelsea closing the gap if they maintain their zillionaire funding for another decade.paulie, going on my experience in Aus, I’d say Liverpool are probably out at the front in terms of shirts, car plates etc you see. Probably Man U And Chelsea joint 2nd, followed by Man City / Arsenal joint 4th. Seeing a Villa shirt is pretty rare, so much so, I always say hello to whoever it is wearing it.
I agree with BV re Rangers and Celtic. They have incredible networks of supporters clubs across the globe, though in my experience they are drawn from the British and Irish diaspora.
Post by: Risso on April 19, 2022, 10:53:04 AM
Gerrard doesn't come out of that looking great, but Christ almighty, what a fucking shambles we were 2013-16.
He's played so few matches the percentages are a bit meaningless at the moment. Win the next two and he becomes more successful then Smith, Atkinson, Little, Gregory and O'Neill. Win the next 3 and he goes above Ron Saunders (and Steve Bruce!) Lose the next two and he falls below Sherwood.
Post by: Hillbilly on April 19, 2022, 11:03:18 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 19, 2022, 11:12:33 AM
Did we really sack Jimmy Hogan while he was in hospital with appendicitis? That's shabby in the extreme if true.
He left because the club closed down during the war.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 19, 2022, 11:18:50 AM
It's amazing how well Eddie Howe has done with a terrible out of form squad and a handful of signings we probably would have turned our nose up to if Villa had been in for them. I've thought Newcastle would finish above us for a while now and if they do then Howe probably deserves manager of the season for the turn around.
Maybe Gerrard will come good, tbh there's quite a lot I like about him. But I am just massively fearful he could turn out to be NWSE's MON and we'll see history repeating itself.
Post by: SamTheMouse on April 19, 2022, 11:21:47 AM
I reckon we could challenge for a European spot, provided all three are top drawer.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 19, 2022, 11:26:20 AM
Post by: Drummond on April 19, 2022, 11:27:29 AM
Gerrard doesn't come out of that looking great, but Christ almighty, what a fucking shambles we were 2013-16.
He's played so few matches the percentages are a bit meaningless at the moment. Win the next two and he becomes more successful then Smith, Atkinson, Little, Gregory and O'Neill. Win the next 3 and he goes above Ron Saunders (and Steve Bruce!) Lose the next two and he falls below Sherwood.
Hang on, wasn't it you telling me that there's no point playing Nostradamus because results haven't happened yet? Or does it only count if you predict we win them?
Post by: Drummond on April 19, 2022, 11:30:16 AM
We need to spend big on three players: a striker, a defensive midfielder, and a centre half.
I reckon we could challenge for a European spot, provided all three are top drawer.
That ought to read should challenge, not could.
Post by: Risso on April 19, 2022, 11:31:50 AM
Gerrard doesn't come out of that looking great, but Christ almighty, what a fucking shambles we were 2013-16.
He's played so few matches the percentages are a bit meaningless at the moment. Win the next two and he becomes more successful then Smith, Atkinson, Little, Gregory and O'Neill. Win the next 3 and he goes above Ron Saunders (and Steve Bruce!) Lose the next two and he falls below Sherwood.
Hang on, wasn't it you telling me that there's no point playing Nostradamus because results haven't happened yet? Or does it only count if you predict we win them?
Erm, the big difference there is that I haven't predicted a single thing. I've simply stated what will happen to his place in the table somebody posted if he wins or loses the next two. Do try to keep up.
Post by: brontebilly on April 19, 2022, 11:33:03 AM
Just to confirm, TSM1, arguably our worst manager post war, arrived here with a better pedigree from 'Rangers' than SG has? For those who want to give him the window, presumably based on his past performance?
I'm no fan of McLeish, but 'worst manager post war' seems a little harsh. There are at least three worse than him since.
Garde, RDM, Lambert, Sherwood
McLeish played anti football but at least had the excuse of an awful run of serious injuries to key players like Dunne, Petrov and Bent.
Post by: Drummond on April 19, 2022, 12:14:25 PM
Gerrard doesn't come out of that looking great, but Christ almighty, what a fucking shambles we were 2013-16.
He's played so few matches the percentages are a bit meaningless at the moment. Win the next two and he becomes more successful then Smith, Atkinson, Little, Gregory and O'Neill. Win the next 3 and he goes above Ron Saunders (and Steve Bruce!) Lose the next two and he falls below Sherwood.
Hang on, wasn't it you telling me that there's no point playing Nostradamus because results haven't happened yet? Or does it only count if you predict we win them?
Erm, the big difference there is that I haven't predicted a single thing. I've simply stated what will happen to his place in the table somebody posted if he wins or loses the next two. Do try to keep up.
Ha!
Post by: Risso on April 19, 2022, 12:18:35 PM
Here's the difference.
Me: "If we win the next game we'll have three points. If we lose the next game we'll have no points."
You: "When we lose the next two it'll be six losses in a row! Gerrard out!"
Post by: Smithy on April 19, 2022, 01:08:52 PM
That only tells half the story though. Going off that, our best 3 post war managers have been Graham Taylor mk.1, Steve Bruce, and Tony Barton.Here's the manager list from Wiki, make of it what you will, but there are 2 worse than TSM1 by win % [click to enlarge]...
(https://i.ibb.co/s9VZgcY/Wiki-Villa-Managers.png) (https://ibb.co/s9VZgcY)
Gerrard doesn't come out of that looking great, but Christ almighty, what a fucking shambles we were 2013-16.
Certainly wouldn't question the man that won us the European Cup being there, or SGT. But Steve Bruce ...
Steve Bruce is only there because he managed us entirely in the second tier where (in theory) wins are easier to come by than in the Premier League. I also suspect it's why Smith's numbers are so close to O'Neil and Little - his excellent run in our promotion season got his win % looking very healthy indeed, even with the relegation battle that followed with only 9 wins all season.
I don't think you can judge Gerrard too harshly until next season. After the start he made, it's been disappointing of late, yes, but I'm absolutely willing to give him the summer and a transfer window to get a side of players he wants, playing the way he wants, before I decide if he's up to it or not. I think if we're not comfortably in the top half next season - and there's not a very good reason for it - then he'll probably be gone by the new year.
Post by: Drummond on April 19, 2022, 01:48:43 PM
Bloody hell bad morning?!
Here's the difference.
Me: "If we win the next game we'll have three points. If we lose the next game we'll have no points."
You: "When we lose the next two it'll be six losses in a row! Gerrard out!"
You: If we win the next two he'll be better than Smith, Atkinson, Little, Gregory and O'Neill (and if we lose he's just a bit below Sherwood) and give him a chance because I like him.
Me: If we lose the next two (which is highly likely as we haven't managed to beat any team above us in the table*) then yes, that's 6 in a row and the evidence mounts that he's not doing a very good job with the same squad Smith had plus Coutinho, Digne and Chambers.
Anyway, it's all immaterial. I'm not happy with being on the side of not liking our manager, and clearly you're not used to being on the side of supporting one who is struggling. ;-) Plus, if I'm honest, I don't want him sacked, I want him to go on a great run, prove my doubts to be incorrect and to go on and be our most successful manager ever.
The time to make a decision is the end of the season. We're safe, we'll beat someone before the season is done, the question is whether we see enough to know for sure either way whether he's good enough overall. The evidence right now suggests we can play well in patches (Spurs first half was a case in point) and some games, Southampton as a really good example, but struggle badly in others and we're losing more than we're winning.
Thankfully, as I pointed out before, we're only the 4th worst team this calendar year behind Watford, Norwich and Everton, so it's not even relegation form. Just really shit.
His Premier League record is P20 W8 D2 L10 so not all bad, that's 49.4 points over a full season. Which last season would put us 12th, funnily enough, just below Aston Villa in the table, albeit 6 points behind. That means that we're just getting worse under him rather than better.
*I am 100% correct so far half way through.
Post by: Risso on April 19, 2022, 01:55:03 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 19, 2022, 04:51:23 PM
In my opinion he has all ready made quite a few mistakes with selections, sticking with poor performing players,game management and upgrading the left back and not dealing with the glaring problem in the central midfield.
It would be madness to sack him now but he does need to prove his credentials before this season is out.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 19, 2022, 07:38:24 PM
If we lose 2/3 more in a row he'll probably be asked to leave. If we end up 15th it will be totally unacceptable
I bet we end up 15th, we'll prob lose 2/3 more in a row, but he won't get the heave-ho.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 19, 2022, 07:40:37 PM
Bloody hell bad morning?!
Here's the difference.
Me: "If we win the next game we'll have three points. If we lose the next game we'll have no points."
You: "When we lose the next two it'll be six losses in a row! Gerrard out!"
You: If we win the next two he'll be better than Smith, Atkinson, Little, Gregory and O'Neill (and if we lose he's just a bit below Sherwood) and give him a chance because I like him.
Me: If we lose the next two (which is highly likely as we haven't managed to beat any team above us in the table*) then yes, that's 6 in a row and the evidence mounts that he's not doing a very good job with the same squad Smith had plus Coutinho, Digne and Chambers.
Anyway, it's all immaterial. I'm not happy with being on the side of not liking our manager, and clearly you're not used to being on the side of supporting one who is struggling. ;-) Plus, if I'm honest, I don't want him sacked, I want him to go on a great run, prove my doubts to be incorrect and to go on and be our most successful manager ever.
The time to make a decision is the end of the season. We're safe, we'll beat someone before the season is done, the question is whether we see enough to know for sure either way whether he's good enough overall. The evidence right now suggests we can play well in patches (Spurs first half was a case in point) and some games, Southampton as a really good example, but struggle badly in others and we're losing more than we're winning.
Thankfully, as I pointed out before, we're only the 4th worst team this calendar year behind Watford, Norwich and Everton, so it's not even relegation form. Just really shit.
His Premier League record is P20 W8 D2 L10 so not all bad, that's 49.4 points over a full season. Which last season would put us 12th, funnily enough, just below Aston Villa in the table, albeit 6 points behind. That means that we're just getting worse under him rather than better.
*I am 100% correct so far half way through.
I don't know about anyone else, but you two are messing with my mind.
Is this some sort of elaborate trolling operation you've put in place, some sort of role play thing where you're pretending to be each other?
Post by: gpbarr on April 19, 2022, 08:20:45 PM
His interview lasted 5-6 hours and they still offered him the job?!
Damning. One things for sure, it'l take 5-6 mins for the next conversation, thank god.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 19, 2022, 09:06:03 PM
His interview lasted 5-6 hours and they still offered him the job?!
Damning. One things for sure, it'l take 5-6 mins for the next conversation, thank god.
You speak with such authority on all things anti Gerrard, have you got inside knowledge. How will you cope if we actually win a few games before the end of the season, your equilibrium will be all out of balance
Post by: Ads on April 19, 2022, 09:53:08 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 19, 2022, 11:46:33 PM
Saying Gerrard needs to go is hysteria of the very highest regard.
Yeah, wankers. Fancy giving up early!
Post by: gpbarr on April 20, 2022, 06:59:30 AM
As others have remarked, I’d prefer to be proven wrong and have to eat humble pie.
Post by: Clampy on April 20, 2022, 07:08:59 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 20, 2022, 07:15:02 AM
I am not sure how many defeats away the tipping point is, but lose the next 2 and he is in trouble.
Post by: andyh on April 20, 2022, 07:34:04 AM
And then letting Gerrard loose with £100m or so in the summer !!?
I’m glad it’s not my money.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 20, 2022, 07:58:36 AM
Saying Gerrard needs to go is hysteria of the very highest regard.He seems to be becoming a worse manager with each passing day and everytime another side play which is slightly odd considering we haven't played since April 9th.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 20, 2022, 08:03:14 AM
Saying Gerrard needs to go is hysteria of the very highest regard.He seems to be becoming a worse manager with each passing day and everytime another side play which is slightly odd considering we haven't played since April 9th.
Maybe it’s because we’ve haven’t won since early March.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 20, 2022, 08:48:38 AM
So the manager doesn’t win for a month and we want him out, or some do. Its a shite run of form, but all the teams around us, including Southampton, Brighton, Palace, up to Leicester who are ninth, have had numerous runs of form similar to this, this season. Newcastle happened to have most of their bad run in mostly one go for half a season. We finished one place, albeit 10 points clear of Newcastle last season, and behind Leeds, but its now both pre determined and disastrous that we’ll finish behind them both.Saying Gerrard needs to go is hysteria of the very highest regard.He seems to be becoming a worse manager with each passing day and everytime another side play which is slightly odd considering we haven't played since April 9th.
Maybe it’s because we’ve haven’t won since early March.
Apart from McLeish and the most recent relegation year, i honestly don’t remember a manager getting such a short period of grace. Without trying to patronise, anyone it really does feel that anyone other than a Steven Gerrard would get more leeway and I’m no Gerrard fanboy and wasn’t over excited about his appointment.
To counter the doom laden crystal ball merchants who are predicting imminent implosion over the next few weeks, i predict we’ll get the mythical thing called a draw at Leicester, followed by a win against Norwich and if its Burnley another win up there. There you go.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 20, 2022, 09:03:30 AM
The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors. Even so, he should have doen better.
It doesn't help when people compare to Howe who has steered an excellent turn around with a far weaker squad and a bunch of signings most of us wouldn't have wanted anywhere near out team. They have a difficult run it but I wouldn't bet against them finishing above us, which was unthinkable in Jan when we'd just signed Digne & Coutinho.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 20, 2022, 09:20:27 AM
Surely the first sentence makes the second sentence overly critical?
Post by: Chris Smith on April 20, 2022, 09:21:21 AM
So the manager doesn’t win for a month and we want him out, or some do. Its a shite run of form, but all the teams around us, including Southampton, Brighton, Palace, up to Leicester who are ninth, have had numerous runs of form similar to this, this season. Newcastle happened to have most of their bad run in mostly one go for half a season. We finished one place, albeit 10 points clear of Newcastle last season, and behind Leeds, but its now both pre determined and disastrous that we’ll finish behind them both.Saying Gerrard needs to go is hysteria of the very highest regard.He seems to be becoming a worse manager with each passing day and everytime another side play which is slightly odd considering we haven't played since April 9th.
Maybe it’s because we’ve haven’t won since early March.
Apart from McLeish and the most recent relegation year, i honestly don’t remember a manager getting such a short period of grace. Without trying to patronise, anyone it really does feel that anyone other than a Steven Gerrard would get more leeway and I’m no Gerrard fanboy and wasn’t over excited about his appointment.
To counter the doom laden crystal ball merchants who are predicting imminent implosion over the next few weeks, i predict we’ll get the mythical thing called a draw at Leicester, followed by a win against Norwich and if its Burnley another win up there. There you go.
No, I don’t want him out I just him to be better. It’s all just a bit underwhelming at the moment seeing teams like Brentford, Newcastle and Brighton above us in the table while we can’t buy a win and slip from comfortable mid table to having only Leeds and Everton between us and the relegation places.
As you say a win at the weekend will lift the mood considerably so fingers crossed we can reproduce the form we showed for 40 minutes against Spurs.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 20, 2022, 09:50:18 AM
The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors. Even so, he should have done better.Possibly. But there's more to it than missed chances and notwithstanding the almost freakish nature of the Spurs game I still think with the squad we have he should have done better.
Surely the first sentence makes the second sentence overly critical?
Post by: KevinGage on April 20, 2022, 10:14:06 AM
It's even worse when Young has to fill in for him. That's on Gerrard. Left back wasn't a priority signing for us, but he made it so. You need to get the big calls right.
The biggest part of managing at any level is managing your resources. Targett -even if he was no longer a guaranteed starter - could still have been convinced if he felt there was a route back. Depending on formation, it wouldn't be unthinkable to have Digne wide mid on occasion with Targett at LB etc.
A season or two after he left, Gavin McCann said O'Neill made him feel like a million dollars and told him he was first name on the team sheet - right up until he sold him. That approach prob doesn't tally with Reo Coker and Curtis Davies's experiences, mind.
Post by: Drummond on April 20, 2022, 10:27:32 AM
The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors.
I think every manager who has had a bad run or been sacked would claim the same thing.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 20, 2022, 10:52:21 AM
So the manager doesn’t win for a month and we want him out, or some do. Its a shite run of form, but all the teams around us, including Southampton, Brighton, Palace, up to Leicester who are ninth, have had numerous runs of form similar to this, this season. Newcastle happened to have most of their bad run in mostly one go for half a season. We finished one place, albeit 10 points clear of Newcastle last season, and behind Leeds, but its now both pre determined and disastrous that we’ll finish behind them both.Saying Gerrard needs to go is hysteria of the very highest regard.He seems to be becoming a worse manager with each passing day and everytime another side play which is slightly odd considering we haven't played since April 9th.
Maybe it’s because we’ve haven’t won since early March.
Apart from McLeish and the most recent relegation year, i honestly don’t remember a manager getting such a short period of grace. Without trying to patronise, anyone it really does feel that anyone other than a Steven Gerrard would get more leeway and I’m no Gerrard fanboy and wasn’t over excited about his appointment.
To counter the doom laden crystal ball merchants who are predicting imminent implosion over the next few weeks, i predict we’ll get the mythical thing called a draw at Leicester, followed by a win against Norwich and if its Burnley another win up there. There you go.
No, I don’t want him out I just him to be better. It’s all just a bit underwhelming at the moment seeing teams like Brentford, Newcastle and Brighton above us in the table while we can’t buy a win and slip from comfortable mid table to having only Leeds and Everton between us and the relegation places.
As you say a win at the weekend will lift the mood considerably so fingers crossed we can reproduce the form we showed for 40 minutes against Spurs.
Fair enough Chris, although my post quoted yours, its was more aimed a lot of other more vociferous anti Gerrard posts.
I wasn’t on H&V at the time from memory, but if Dean Smith was being judged on the same criteria as Gerrard, shouldn’t there have been a similar thread in the weeks leading up to Grealish coming back from injury and the Derby game in March 2019? The better players at his disposable argument doesn’t wash as its all relative and we had a very good squad in that division.
This season is disappointing and mid table mediocrity is an apt term, its boring having nothing much to play for. I just think we need to get a few wins before the end of the season, calm down a bit and hope that we get some decent signings in the summer and a decent pre season.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 20, 2022, 11:40:11 AM
Post by: eamonn on April 20, 2022, 11:42:23 AM
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 20, 2022, 11:51:50 AM
If you look at the post-match threads from Feb 2019, like turgid displays at Reading where Tyrone Mings nearly career-ended a player, you'll probably find more than a few murmurs of "Smith's no better than Bruce, sling'im out!". He had managed to smash promotion rivals in his first few months mind, (0-3 at Tiny Penis's Boro the pick of the lot) whereas Gerrard gets a nose-bleed any time we play a team in the top half.Fair enough, this thread still feels very premature.
Post by: Risso on April 20, 2022, 12:00:54 PM
If you look at the post-match threads from Feb 2019, like turgid displays at Reading where Tyrone Mings nearly career-ended a player, you'll probably find more than a few murmurs of "Smith's no better than Bruce, sling'im out!". He had managed to smash promotion rivals in his first few months mind, (0-3 at Tiny Penis's Boro the pick of the lot) whereas Gerrard gets a nose-bleed any time we play a team in the top half.
The 3-0 away defeat to Wigan stands out as probably the worst performance I can recall under Smith. Absolutely clueless that day all over the pitch, and Kalinic in particular had a nightmare.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 20, 2022, 12:19:33 PM
The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors. Even so, he should have done better.Possibly. But there's more to it than missed chances and notwithstanding the almost freakish nature of the Spurs game I still think with the squad we have he should have done better.
Surely the first sentence makes the second sentence overly critical?
I appreciate that, but still don't see how this equates to the manager not being fit for purpose.
Our strikers/forwards convert their chances, we win.
Individuals stop making critical errors, we don't lose.
Until certain players step up and perform as expected, we will continue to lose, despite what any manager says or does.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 20, 2022, 12:25:01 PM
If you look at the post-match threads from Feb 2019, like turgid displays at Reading where Tyrone Mings nearly career-ended a player, you'll probably find more than a few murmurs of "Smith's no better than Bruce, sling'im out!". He had managed to smash promotion rivals in his first few months mind, (0-3 at Tiny Penis's Boro the pick of the lot) whereas Gerrard gets a nose-bleed any time we play a team in the top half.Fair enough, this thread still feels very premature.
Well I started it and it’s something I’ve always suffered from.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 20, 2022, 12:37:58 PM
Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.
Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door... no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 20, 2022, 12:49:42 PM
The rule is:Watkins has had one decent season at this level playing alongside someone who made chances for fun in Grealish, jurys out after this year. I think Risso has pointed out before the idea of Ings being a 20 goal a season man every year is somewhat of an urban myth.
Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.
Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door... no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.
Again, Gerrards had 5 months, it isnt enough time to judge the way he’s being judged.
Post by: eamonn on April 20, 2022, 01:15:32 PM
Post by: ROBBO on April 20, 2022, 01:16:54 PM
Post by: boozey182 on April 20, 2022, 01:41:32 PM
The rule is:Watkins has had one decent season at this level playing alongside someone who made chances for fun in Grealish, jurys out after this year. I think Risso has pointed out before the idea of Ings being a 20 goal a season man every year is somewhat of an urban myth.
Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.
Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door... no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.
Again, Gerrards had 5 months, it isnt enough time to judge the way he’s being judged.
I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but how do you think we should be judging him?
I appreciate that there are mitigating circumstances to his tenure - he has only had one transfer window so far, and the squad is certainly disjointed which wasn't his doing. He got off to a brilliant start with three wins in four matches, which showed such promise, especially the freefall we seemed to be in before that run. I'm not sure how much weight we can put into New Manger Bounce - he got those wins out of a team that had been really struggling and he deserves a lot of credit. Looking at it now, that run probably saved us from any kind of relegation battle this season.
However, if you'd have told any of us after that Leicester win back in December that we would be 15th in April, I think most, if not all, of us would have been at best underwhelmed. (I appreciate the season isn't over yet and hopefully we can get amongst the proper midtable clubs before then, but it seems silly to judge him on things that haven't happened yet).
To my mind, despite the major shortcomings of the squad, there are more than 5 worse squads than ours in this league. I would argue that the minimum requirement of a manager is to get the squad performing to their capabilities, and I'm sure most on here would concede that Gerrard isn't doing that at the moment.
The other concerns about him seem to be: tactical inflexibility, our woeful record against teams in the top half, worrying deficiencies in every area of the pitch (apart from goalkeeper) and individual player performances dropping off.
It may well be too early to make major judgements about him, and he won't lose his job unless we manage to get even worse between now and the end of the season, but I think many of the concerns are justified. We can only judge him on what he has done so far, and it hasn't been very impressive. I think he has done the bare minimum to keep his job.
As a much more eloquent poster than me put it - I don't want him to get sacked, I just want him to get better.
It was always a risk that fans would turn on him sooner than previous managers though - as a fan base, we have never liked him, have we? I know, I know, that's all water under the bridge now, and if he had been a bit more successful, I'm sure everyone would love him unconditionally now. But it's not the same as managers like Little, Gregory, Smith and Taylor II is it? There was no long-standing goodwill there to keep him going through these poor runs.
He's a born winner though, right? I'm sure it doesn't matter what we think of him, whether we want him sacked or think we're lucky to have such a superstar as our manager. He'll either get it right with us, or turn up in a TV studio quite soon.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 20, 2022, 01:56:34 PM
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 20, 2022, 01:56:43 PM
The rule is:Watkins has had one decent season at this level playing alongside someone who made chances for fun in Grealish, jurys out after this year. I think Risso has pointed out before the idea of Ings being a 20 goal a season man every year is somewhat of an urban myth.
Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.
Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door... no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.
Again, Gerrards had 5 months, it isnt enough time to judge the way he’s being judged.
I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but how do you think we should be judging him?
I appreciate that there are mitigating circumstances to his tenure - he has only had one transfer window so far, and the squad is certainly disjointed which wasn't his doing. He got off to a brilliant start with three wins in four matches, which showed such promise, especially the freefall we seemed to be in before that run. I'm not sure how much weight we can put into New Manger Bounce - he got those wins out of a team that had been really struggling and he deserves a lot of credit. Looking at it now, that run probably saved us from any kind of relegation battle this season.
However, if you'd have told any of us after that Leicester win back in December that we would be 15th in April, I think most, if not all, of us would have been at best underwhelmed. (I appreciate the season isn't over yet and hopefully we can get amongst the proper midtable clubs before then, but it seems silly to judge him on things that haven't happened yet).
To my mind, despite the major shortcomings of the squad, there are more than 5 worse squads than ours in this league. I would argue that the minimum requirement of a manager is to get the squad performing to their capabilities, and I'm sure most on here would concede that Gerrard isn't doing that at the moment.
The other concerns about him seem to be: tactical inflexibility, our woeful record against teams in the top half, worrying deficiencies in every area of the pitch (apart from goalkeeper) and individual player performances dropping off.
It may well be too early to make major judgements about him, and he won't lose his job unless we manage to get even worse between now and the end of the season, but I think many of the concerns are justified. We can only judge him on what he has done so far, and it hasn't been very impressive. I think he has done the bare minimum to keep his job.
As a much more eloquent poster than me put it - I don't want him to get sacked, I just want him to get better.
It was always a risk that fans would turn on him sooner than previous managers though - as a fan base, we have never liked him, have we? I know, I know, that's all water under the bridge now, and if he had been a bit more successful, I'm sure everyone would love him unconditionally now. But it's not the same as managers like Little, Gregory, Smith and Taylor II is it? There was no long-standing goodwill there to keep him going through these poor runs.
He's a born winner though, right? I'm sure it doesn't matter what we think of him, whether we want him sacked or think we're lucky to have such a superstar as our manager. He'll either get it right with us, or turn up in a TV studio quite soon.
I think he should be judged as all managers should and your right, this season and this calendar year have largely been underwhelming and there are obvious concerns about his ability to motivate this group of players. I do just think the whole premise of this thread, e.g. some posters thinking he should be sacked, is questionable at the moment as its so early in his tenure.
Your right he’s got far less credit in the bank than other managers and that is unfortunate for him but also for us as a club, as i think we need a bit of stability and not sure we need another round of sackings and new appointments just yet. I genuinely think 2 or 3 players could make a huge amount of difference to this team and he needs time to get those in.
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 20, 2022, 02:07:52 PM
The unfortunate thing for our manager is that there are now stats which can be used against him. We're currently on our 2nd bad run with him in charge in what has been a relatively short tenure. Home results have generally been poor. I think we've had 1 win at home since the beginning of December (approaching 5 months!).
We're more likely to lose against a team in the bottom 3 (Watford) than beat or even draw with a team in the top 8.
Every Villa fan I'm sure wants us to do well and there would probably be very little mention of his name if we were getting results, but we're not and it's as much down to him as to some off-form players. Hopefully he's big enough to take the criticism on board and do something positive about it (and I don't mean stropping on the bench for himself) otherwise he may find himself close to the exit door.
Post by: Risso on April 20, 2022, 02:13:14 PM
So I fully agree that our record against them is poor, but it's not like we've been played off the pitch either, other than in the Arsenal game which was dire, and Wolves which was almost as bad.
Post by: Risso on April 20, 2022, 02:14:22 PM
Anyone ever noticed that when a Villa manager is sacked the squad the new manager inherited is a mixture of crap or disjointed or both. The same squad less someone who was special albeit had three months a season off that finished 11th.
Is the fact that that squad without Grealish had gained 10 points from 11 games not more relevant?
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 20, 2022, 02:19:29 PM
Manager = In game management - improvement required // Team selection - improvement required
Players = Concentrate until the final whistle goes // Take extra shooting practice during training
Post by: Beard82 on April 20, 2022, 02:32:17 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on April 20, 2022, 02:33:08 PM
I didn't say he wasn't fit for purpose. I said our performance since he joined has been dissapointing. Yes we've missed some chances, but as I said there's more to it than that. Several of our performaces just haven't been up to scratch. Whether this is tactics, selection, motivation, fitness, lack of subs etc or a bit of all I'm not sure. But it's the managers job to resolve this and he's seems to be struggling to do so.The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors. Even so, he should have done better.Possibly. But there's more to it than missed chances and notwithstanding the almost freakish nature of the Spurs game I still think with the squad we have he should have done better.
Surely the first sentence makes the second sentence overly critical?
I appreciate that, but still don't see how this equates to the manager not being fit for purpose.
Our strikers/forwards convert their chances, we win.
Individuals stop making critical errors, we don't lose.
Until certain players step up and perform as expected, we will continue to lose, despite what any manager says or does.
Post by: LeeB on April 20, 2022, 02:36:11 PM
I think the only games against the top 8 where we've been totally rubbish were Arsenal home and Wolves away. We gave Man City a really good game, and were utterly robbed by VAR with a dodgy penalty for Liverpool and us not being given one in return. Man U we drew but could have won but for an uncharacteristic howler from Martinez. In the West Ham game we should have taken the lead had Ings put away the simplest of chances, and the last game against Spurs the first half was probably the best we've played all season. We were also cheated in the FA Cup game with Man U.
So I fully agree that our record against them is poor, but it's not like we've been played off the pitch either, other than in the Arsenal game which was dire, and Wolves which was almost as bad.
That's fair. As annoying as the Spurs game was we played as well as we have this season between the first and second goals
Post by: boozey182 on April 20, 2022, 02:48:55 PM
The rule is:Watkins has had one decent season at this level playing alongside someone who made chances for fun in Grealish, jurys out after this year. I think Risso has pointed out before the idea of Ings being a 20 goal a season man every year is somewhat of an urban myth.
Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.
Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door... no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.
Again, Gerrards had 5 months, it isnt enough time to judge the way he’s being judged.
I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but how do you think we should be judging him?
I appreciate that there are mitigating circumstances to his tenure - he has only had one transfer window so far, and the squad is certainly disjointed which wasn't his doing. He got off to a brilliant start with three wins in four matches, which showed such promise, especially the freefall we seemed to be in before that run. I'm not sure how much weight we can put into New Manger Bounce - he got those wins out of a team that had been really struggling and he deserves a lot of credit. Looking at it now, that run probably saved us from any kind of relegation battle this season.
However, if you'd have told any of us after that Leicester win back in December that we would be 15th in April, I think most, if not all, of us would have been at best underwhelmed. (I appreciate the season isn't over yet and hopefully we can get amongst the proper midtable clubs before then, but it seems silly to judge him on things that haven't happened yet).
To my mind, despite the major shortcomings of the squad, there are more than 5 worse squads than ours in this league. I would argue that the minimum requirement of a manager is to get the squad performing to their capabilities, and I'm sure most on here would concede that Gerrard isn't doing that at the moment.
The other concerns about him seem to be: tactical inflexibility, our woeful record against teams in the top half, worrying deficiencies in every area of the pitch (apart from goalkeeper) and individual player performances dropping off.
It may well be too early to make major judgements about him, and he won't lose his job unless we manage to get even worse between now and the end of the season, but I think many of the concerns are justified. We can only judge him on what he has done so far, and it hasn't been very impressive. I think he has done the bare minimum to keep his job.
As a much more eloquent poster than me put it - I don't want him to get sacked, I just want him to get better.
It was always a risk that fans would turn on him sooner than previous managers though - as a fan base, we have never liked him, have we? I know, I know, that's all water under the bridge now, and if he had been a bit more successful, I'm sure everyone would love him unconditionally now. But it's not the same as managers like Little, Gregory, Smith and Taylor II is it? There was no long-standing goodwill there to keep him going through these poor runs.
He's a born winner though, right? I'm sure it doesn't matter what we think of him, whether we want him sacked or think we're lucky to have such a superstar as our manager. He'll either get it right with us, or turn up in a TV studio quite soon.
I think he should be judged as all managers should and your right, this season and this calendar year have largely been underwhelming and there are obvious concerns about his ability to motivate this group of players. I do just think the whole premise of this thread, e.g. some posters thinking he should be sacked, is questionable at the moment as its so early in his tenure.
Your right he’s got far less credit in the bank than other managers and that is unfortunate for him but also for us as a club, as i think we need a bit of stability and not sure we need another round of sackings and new appointments just yet. I genuinely think 2 or 3 players could make a huge amount of difference to this team and he needs time to get those in.
I absolutely agree with you there, I think we are only 2 or 3 players away from being a really decent side. Unfortunately, they are probably the same 2 or 3 players that we needed last summer! And the summer before that...!
I don't think he's helped himself with the criticism with the players, just in terms of how the fans perceive him. He was really cool and composed when he first arrived, and I was really impressed. Lately, it's felt a bit like his criticism of the players has been there to deflect away from himself, and that's probably rubbed people up the wrong way. Again, fans have long memories, and some of these players have given fans some of the best moments in over a decade - not everyone is ready to turn on them.
A win on Saturday will change a lot. A couple more, including one against a decent team, and things look so much better, and all of the talk of him getting sacked will be forgotten. If we end up finishing 14-15th though, I don't think it will go away.
Post by: Beard82 on April 20, 2022, 02:58:41 PM
I think hes communication etc is pretty spot on, apart from in the post match interviews, when we have lost he seems to say things he doesnt really mean. I think he just really hates losing.The rule is:Watkins has had one decent season at this level playing alongside someone who made chances for fun in Grealish, jurys out after this year. I think Risso has pointed out before the idea of Ings being a 20 goal a season man every year is somewhat of an urban myth.
Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.
Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door... no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.
Again, Gerrards had 5 months, it isnt enough time to judge the way he’s being judged.
I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but how do you think we should be judging him?
I appreciate that there are mitigating circumstances to his tenure - he has only had one transfer window so far, and the squad is certainly disjointed which wasn't his doing. He got off to a brilliant start with three wins in four matches, which showed such promise, especially the freefall we seemed to be in before that run. I'm not sure how much weight we can put into New Manger Bounce - he got those wins out of a team that had been really struggling and he deserves a lot of credit. Looking at it now, that run probably saved us from any kind of relegation battle this season.
However, if you'd have told any of us after that Leicester win back in December that we would be 15th in April, I think most, if not all, of us would have been at best underwhelmed. (I appreciate the season isn't over yet and hopefully we can get amongst the proper midtable clubs before then, but it seems silly to judge him on things that haven't happened yet).
To my mind, despite the major shortcomings of the squad, there are more than 5 worse squads than ours in this league. I would argue that the minimum requirement of a manager is to get the squad performing to their capabilities, and I'm sure most on here would concede that Gerrard isn't doing that at the moment.
The other concerns about him seem to be: tactical inflexibility, our woeful record against teams in the top half, worrying deficiencies in every area of the pitch (apart from goalkeeper) and individual player performances dropping off.
It may well be too early to make major judgements about him, and he won't lose his job unless we manage to get even worse between now and the end of the season, but I think many of the concerns are justified. We can only judge him on what he has done so far, and it hasn't been very impressive. I think he has done the bare minimum to keep his job.
As a much more eloquent poster than me put it - I don't want him to get sacked, I just want him to get better.
It was always a risk that fans would turn on him sooner than previous managers though - as a fan base, we have never liked him, have we? I know, I know, that's all water under the bridge now, and if he had been a bit more successful, I'm sure everyone would love him unconditionally now. But it's not the same as managers like Little, Gregory, Smith and Taylor II is it? There was no long-standing goodwill there to keep him going through these poor runs.
He's a born winner though, right? I'm sure it doesn't matter what we think of him, whether we want him sacked or think we're lucky to have such a superstar as our manager. He'll either get it right with us, or turn up in a TV studio quite soon.
I think he should be judged as all managers should and your right, this season and this calendar year have largely been underwhelming and there are obvious concerns about his ability to motivate this group of players. I do just think the whole premise of this thread, e.g. some posters thinking he should be sacked, is questionable at the moment as its so early in his tenure.
Your right he’s got far less credit in the bank than other managers and that is unfortunate for him but also for us as a club, as i think we need a bit of stability and not sure we need another round of sackings and new appointments just yet. I genuinely think 2 or 3 players could make a huge amount of difference to this team and he needs time to get those in.
I absolutely agree with you there, I think we are only 2 or 3 players away from being a really decent side. Unfortunately, they are probably the same 2 or 3 players that we needed last summer! And the summer before that...!
I don't think he's helped himself with the criticism with the players, just in terms of how the fans perceive him. He was really cool and composed when he first arrived, and I was really impressed. Lately, it's felt a bit like his criticism of the players has been there to deflect away from himself, and that's probably rubbed people up the wrong way. Again, fans have long memories, and some of these players have given fans some of the best moments in over a decade - not everyone is ready to turn on them.
A win on Saturday will change a lot. A couple more, including one against a decent team, and things look so much better, and all of the talk of him getting sacked will be forgotten. If we end up finishing 14-15th though, I don't think it will go away.
Think that is where the criticsm has come, and it then means it looks stupid when he has calmed down and doesnt hold true to the things he said when he was pissed off.
Post by: boozey182 on April 20, 2022, 03:13:05 PM
I think hes communication etc is pretty spot on, apart from in the post match interviews, when we have lost he seems to say things he doesnt really mean. I think he just really hates losing.
Think that is where the criticsm has come, and it then means it looks stupid when he has calmed down and doesnt hold true to the things he said when he was pissed off.
That's a really good point - and that sort of passion could be a great quality to have, but at the moment you're right. He just looks a little silly, and I don't think it is particularly good management.
He needs to harness that energy and put it somewhere positive. If he is going to lay in to the players, do it when fans, opposition managers and prospective buyers aren't listening.
He is great to watch when we win - that sort of arrogant calm and smug smile. Just wish we saw that a bit more often.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 20, 2022, 03:47:03 PM
Thanks Chris.I didn't say he wasn't fit for purpose. I said our performance since he joined has been dissapointing. Yes we've missed some chances, but as I said there's more to it than that. Several of our performaces just haven't been up to scratch. Whether this is tactics, selection, motivation, fitness, lack of subs etc or a bit of all I'm not sure. But it's the managers job to resolve this and he's seems to be struggling to do so.The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors. Even so, he should have done better.Possibly. But there's more to it than missed chances and notwithstanding the almost freakish nature of the Spurs game I still think with the squad we have he should have done better.
Surely the first sentence makes the second sentence overly critical?
I appreciate that, but still don't see how this equates to the manager not being fit for purpose.
Our strikers/forwards convert their chances, we win.
Individuals stop making critical errors, we don't lose.
Until certain players step up and perform as expected, we will continue to lose, despite what any manager says or does.
Post by: oldhill_avfc on April 20, 2022, 04:03:27 PM
(1) narrow forwards and full back playing high up the pitch - this is pushing McGinn and Ramsey further back - the second half vs Spurs that were effectively full backs.
(2) repeatedly trying to fit in Ings and Watkins
(3) Buendia being forced onto the bench after seeing a general improvement and seemingly getting up to speed
(4) continuously playing Luiz in the holding midfield role - if there are no other options (eg Iroegbunam) then why doesn't he try to alter the formation - perhaps 4-2-3-1 (with perhaps Sanson in the middle alonside Luiz?)
Post by: Risso on April 20, 2022, 04:11:29 PM
The problem is that things are getting worse rather than better. Perhaps he would argue that nothing can be substantially improved without another transfer window but you have to question his tactics in regard to:-
(1) narrow forwards and full back playing high up the pitch - this is pushing McGinn and Ramsey further back - the second half vs Spurs that were effectively full backs.
(2) repeatedly trying to fit in Ings and Watkins
(3) Buendia being forced onto the bench after seeing a general improvement and seemingly getting up to speed
(4) continuously playing Luiz in the holding midfield role - if there are no other options (eg Iroegbunam) then why doesn't he try to alter the formation - perhaps 4-2-3-1 (with perhaps Sanson in the middle alonside Luiz?)
In my opinion
(1) I think the second half versus Spurs was entirely due to conceding the second goal so early on, it completely ruined the game plan we had.
(2) Agreed, he needs to stop doing this, it's my main criticism of him.
(3) He's a good player, but he doesn't affect games enough for all his good play. I'd still have him in instead of either Watkins or Ings though.
(4) Again, agreed, Luiz is mostly tidy on the ball but isn't remotely good enough in the DM role. I don't think 4-2-3-1 is the answer though, because when Luiz and McGinn played there they were mostly rubbish at it. Hopefully Marv will be back to do the donkey work soon.
Post by: Beard82 on April 20, 2022, 05:24:22 PM
I saw a stat and Beudia makes the second most chances of any player outside of the "Sky 6".The problem is that things are getting worse rather than better. Perhaps he would argue that nothing can be substantially improved without another transfer window but you have to question his tactics in regard to:-
(1) narrow forwards and full back playing high up the pitch - this is pushing McGinn and Ramsey further back - the second half vs Spurs that were effectively full backs.
(2) repeatedly trying to fit in Ings and Watkins
(3) Buendia being forced onto the bench after seeing a general improvement and seemingly getting up to speed
(4) continuously playing Luiz in the holding midfield role - if there are no other options (eg Iroegbunam) then why doesn't he try to alter the formation - perhaps 4-2-3-1 (with perhaps Sanson in the middle alonside Luiz?)
In my opinion
(1) I think the second half versus Spurs was entirely due to conceding the second goal so early on, it completely ruined the game plan we had.
(2) Agreed, he needs to stop doing this, it's my main criticism of him.
(3) He's a good player, but he doesn't affect games enough for all his good play. I'd still have him in instead of either Watkins or Ings though.
(4) Again, agreed, Luiz is mostly tidy on the ball but isn't remotely good enough in the DM role. I don't think 4-2-3-1 is the answer though, because when Luiz and McGinn played there they were mostly rubbish at it. Hopefully Marv will be back to do the donkey work soon.
I do worry about 1 - that if we persist with this narrow formation - whether it is too easy to work out. I also think it stops us from using the flanks effectively and gets ramsey and mcginn doing stuff there bad at. When Marv is back will be the time to judge it I guess
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 20, 2022, 06:11:51 PM
Post by: SaddVillan on April 20, 2022, 08:25:44 PM
Gerrard has a clear vision of the players he wants in terms of fitness, athleticism and skill level - there's a minimum base level that he requires, added to a desire for self improvement - which he sees as a crucial part of a player's personality and character.
That's the basis, onto which he will coach shapes, formations and tactics.
Not sure that a huge number of the existing squad have shown enough of what he wants.
Gerrard's standards might be too much for some of our squad. Too used to an easy ride under Smith and they're not liking it?
Added to which, too many of them have been below par in terms of fitness all season. A consequence of a crap pre-season?
McGinn hinted at this last week - effectively stated that under Gerrard you either produce week in week out, or you're a goner.
No passengers.
Expect 60% of the current squad to have been moved out by the end of the 2023 Sumner transfer window.
Post by: Drummond on April 20, 2022, 08:45:13 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 20, 2022, 08:46:49 PM
Of the current squad, only Digne, Chambers and Coutinho were signed by Gerrard. (Olsen is just a backup).
Gerrard has a clear vision of the players he wants in terms of fitness, athleticism and skill level - there's a minimum base level that he requires, added to a desire for self improvement - which he sees as a crucial part of a player's personality and character.
That's the basis, onto which he will coach shapes, formations and tactics.
Not sure that a huge number of the existing squad have shown enough of what he wants.
Gerrard's standards might be too much for some of our squad. Too used to an easy ride under Smith and they're not liking it?
Added to which, too many of them have been below par in terms of fitness all season. A consequence of a crap pre-season?
McGinn hinted at this last week - effectively stated that under Gerrard you either produce week in week out, or you're a goner.
No passengers.
Expect 60% of the current squad to have been moved out by the end of the 2023 Sumner transfer window.
Was he smiling at the time, and were his fingers crossed?
We've got more passengers than Uber.
Post by: Beard82 on April 20, 2022, 08:49:01 PM
Think the overhaul is over emphassied - I cant see we are going to sale loads of players - simply because if we could I think some would have already moved on.
I reckon when they say that up to ten players will go - they mean we would accept bids for 10 of our players.
Post by: Ads on April 20, 2022, 08:52:19 PM
Post by: SaddVillan on April 20, 2022, 09:39:27 PM
An evolution not a fire sale!
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 20, 2022, 10:24:40 PM
McGinn definitely puts the effort it. He makes by far and away the most tackles in the side and is the biggest ball carrier in the league. Plying as more defensive/rigid 8 to make up for Luiz's concentration and physical lapses in screening though, doesn't help him at all. He's looked poor for months, but he definitely isn't a passenger in the traditional sense.
McGinn wasn't my target there. It was the idea that Gerrard is ruthless week by week with those not performing.
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 20, 2022, 10:35:53 PM
McGinn definitely puts the effort it. He makes by far and away the most tackles in the side and is the biggest ball carrier in the league. Plying as more defensive/rigid 8 to make up for Luiz's concentration and physical lapses in screening though, doesn't help him at all. He's looked poor for months, but he definitely isn't a passenger in the traditional sense.
McGinn wasn't my target there. It was the idea that Gerrard is ruthless week by week with those not performing.
Doesn’t come across that way does it? He says that but the proof tells us otherwise. Bigs Sanson up as training well, plays him for a game then he’s out again.
Post by: eamonn on April 21, 2022, 04:00:57 PM
Post by: Beard82 on April 21, 2022, 04:07:53 PM
Im guessing this was filmed about a month ago - but I think he comes across very well, and I feel more confident in him after listening to it
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 21, 2022, 04:43:10 PM
Are you part of Steven's coaching staff?
What do you think?
Post by: eamonn on April 21, 2022, 04:46:19 PM
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 21, 2022, 05:49:08 PM
Sorry, that was in response to SaddVillan.
Apologies, thought it was in response to my comment.
Post by: mrfuse on April 21, 2022, 08:27:34 PM
This is quite interesting
Im guessing this was filmed about a month ago - but I think he comes across very well, and I feel more confident in him after listening to it
I feel the same way ..until we go and lose a game again.
Post by: gpbarr on April 21, 2022, 09:20:05 PM
This is quite interesting
Im guessing this was filmed about a month ago - but I think he comes across very well, and I feel more confident in him after listening to it
I feel the same way ..until we go and lose a game again.
He talks a good game, thats for sure. Its about the only thing he's done well.
Post by: Proposition Joe on April 22, 2022, 12:12:55 PM
Post by: sinbad on April 22, 2022, 01:00:14 PM
I guess Coutinho might have gone to NUFC, but Buendia could well have grown even more into the influential form he'd been finding. Digne might not have come, and Targett would have stayed.
Would Villa be better organised than they are now? Players playing in a system that suited them better?
Post by: eamonn on April 22, 2022, 01:14:57 PM
Post by: Risso on April 22, 2022, 01:40:10 PM
Would Villa be better organised than they are now? Players playing in a system that suited them better?
What system was that then?
Post by: chrisw1 on April 22, 2022, 01:59:59 PM
Not two up top. And not two No 10's. Only Sherwood had the mastery to bamboozle the opposition with two No 10's, not even Pep is brave enough to try it.
Would Villa be better organised than they are now? Players playing in a system that suited them better?
What system was that then?
Post by: Drummond on April 22, 2022, 02:54:49 PM
Not two up top. And not two No 10's. Only Sherwood had the mastery to bamboozle the opposition with two No 10's, not even Pep is brave enough to try it.
Would Villa be better organised than they are now? Players playing in a system that suited them better?
What system was that then?
I think he means would Eddie Howe's system be better than Gerrard's. Evidence suggests it would be given the results, but who knows.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on April 22, 2022, 03:59:08 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 22, 2022, 04:40:15 PM
Just as a matter of interest - how much money have the Geordies spent on their squad, in comparison to ours?it might be similar. They spent more on Joelinton than we've ever spent on anyone
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 22, 2022, 07:26:26 PM
If things seem similar is it important to give Gerrard the same amount of time to manage the team?
Post by: Beard82 on April 22, 2022, 07:58:22 PM
There are plenty of Smith/Gerrard comparisons being mentioned .If he shows year on year improvement like smith did, he can be here til he retires
If things seem similar is it important to give Gerrard the same amount of time to manage the team?
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 22, 2022, 08:13:01 PM
Gerrard has had a patchy start, but he should be afforded some time to prove himself - that’s not an endless amount of time, but it’s far too soon to consider a change now.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 22, 2022, 09:00:30 PM
He made ordinary players look better and play better. We went into this season under prepared and half baked.
We didn’t have a plan B on the pitch when Greasy wasn’t playing and we didn’t have a plan B to replace him.
Smith paid the price and nothing we have done since despite spending a £130mil + the Coutinho loan fee has arrested the situation, they waisted the Greasy money .
We are still a PL team struggling without that once in a generation player.
How all of this can be blamed on Gerrard I don’t know, the post Greasy Villa is a huge challenge and would tax managers with far more experience than Gerrard.
The blame should be aimed at those responsible for the preparation for the new season and the transfers that were made.
Post by: paul_e on April 22, 2022, 10:25:15 PM
The Greasy will he won’t he debacle last summer really fucked us up.He made ordinary players look better and play better. We went into this season under prepared and half baked.
We didn’t have a plan B on the pitch when Greasy wasn’t playing and we didn’t have a plan B to replace him.
Smith paid the price and nothing we have done since despite spending a £130mil + the Coutinho loan fee has arrested the situation, they waisted the Greasy money .
We are still a PL team struggling without that once in a generation player.How all of this can be blamed on Gerrard I don’t know, the post Greasy Villa is a huge challenge and would tax managers with far more experience than Gerrard.
The blame should be aimed at those responsible for the preparation for the new season and the transfers that were made.
There's a bunch of stuff in there that's irrelevant but the top and bottom lines are the key to the mess we've seen this season and the number of people to blame is huge. I don't think it's accurate or fair to claim that the rest of the squad is ordinary without him or that the signings we made last summer and January are a waste.
Bailey, for example, arrived injured and has never really recovered to get to the level needed in this league. He desperately needs a proper summer this year to get back on track, Digne is quality but has been really unlucky with injurues since he signed and Buendia has shown his quality but we need to work out how to make the best use of him.
Ings I have more concerns with but even then I think if we can get the midfield right and the fullbacks doing what Gerrard wants he can be an asset in this squad, but he needs a goal right now as his confidence is shot.
Post by: KevinGage on April 23, 2022, 12:19:15 AM
Mings, McGinn, Martinez, Buendia, Luiz, Cash and Watkins have shown themselves to be competent at this level of football - competent enough to earn international recognition for highly ranked international teams during their time with us. Bailey made waves in a league as strong as the Bundesliga and Konsa looked like he could make the transition to either the England or Portugal set up with ease.
SG has since added Digne and Coutinho to an already solid squad.
But we have to suddenly ignore all that and concede he has been given a duff hand in some way - and needs a total rebuild to make us competitive.
Sorry, don't buy it.
Post by: Steve67 on April 23, 2022, 12:26:43 AM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 23, 2022, 12:43:21 AM
Mings, McGinn, Martinez, Buendia, Luiz, Cash and Watkins have shown themselves to be competent at this level of football - competent enough to earn international recognition for highly ranked international teams during their time with us. Bailey made waves in a league as strong as the Bundesliga and Konsa looked like he could make the transition to either the England or Portugal set up with ease.
SG has since added Digne and Coutinho to an already solid squad.
But we have to suddenly ignore all that and concede he has been given a duff hand in some way - and needs a total rebuild to make us competitive.
Sorry, don't buy it.
I agree with KevinGage.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 12:43:25 AM
Mings, McGinn, Martinez, Buendia, Luiz, Cash and Watkins have shown themselves to be competent at this level of football - competent enough to earn international recognition for highly ranked international teams during their time with us. Bailey made waves in a league as strong as the Bundesliga and Konsa looked like he could make the transition to either the England or Portugal set up with ease.
SG has since added Digne and Coutinho to an already solid squad.
But we have to suddenly ignore all that and concede he has been given a duff hand in some way - and needs a total rebuild to make us competitive.
Sorry, don't buy it.
It's not a binary thing though, just because we have the basis of a good team/squad doesn't mean Gerrard hasn't had a tough 6 months. This is why giving him the summer is important for me.
It's his chance to put the work in to ensure things are better next year but it's also the clubs chance to wipe away those explanations/excuses and make him fully accountable.
Post by: Risso on April 23, 2022, 08:31:19 AM
We don't need a total rebuild but we do need 3-4 quality additions down the spine of the team.
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2022, 08:44:02 AM
I think the 9 single goal defeats show a fundamental flaw, but not an insurmountable chasm. Even in games where we've been rank, such as Wolves, better studs and keeper knowing nothing about that save at the end from Cash and you have a point.
A serious injection of quality into that spine will benefit us immensely. If Grealish had stuck around and we'd spent £100m on a central defender, defensive midfielder etc last summer, Smith would still be here, who knows.
But we need to fix/upgrade what's been problematic since promotion.
Post by: AV82EC on April 23, 2022, 08:50:14 AM
Post by: Ian. on April 23, 2022, 09:27:08 AM
To summarise, we’re still an easy pushover and soft as shite when the chips are down. We can outplay anyone but lack the cojones to dig in and play for something. That’s not about the quality of the team that’s about mentality. It needs fixing and I’m sure Gerrard knows who fits into that and who doesn’t.
That’s probably the most accurate summary of us I’ve seen. That could have been said for the last two seasons under two different managers now. Which maybe makes me wonder about the mentality of our players and not coaches.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 23, 2022, 09:28:06 AM
Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.The Greasy will he won’t he debacle last summer really fucked us up.He made ordinary players look better and play better. We went into this season under prepared and half baked.
We didn’t have a plan B on the pitch when Greasy wasn’t playing and we didn’t have a plan B to replace him.
Smith paid the price and nothing we have done since despite spending a £130mil + the Coutinho loan fee has arrested the situation, they waisted the Greasy money .
We are still a PL team struggling without that once in a generation player.How all of this can be blamed on Gerrard I don’t know, the post Greasy Villa is a huge challenge and would tax managers with far more experience than Gerrard.
The blame should be aimed at those responsible for the preparation for the new season and the transfers that were made.
There's a bunch of stuff in there that's irrelevant but the top and bottom lines are the key to the mess we've seen this season and the number of people to blame is huge. I don't think it's accurate or fair to claim that the rest of the squad is ordinary without him or that the signings we made last summer and January are a waste.
Bailey, for example, arrived injured and has never really recovered to get to the level needed in this league. He desperately needs a proper summer this year to get back on track, Digne is quality but has been really unlucky with injurues since he signed and Buendia has shown his quality but we need to work out how to make the best use of him.
Ings I have more concerns with but even then I think if we can get the midfield right and the fullbacks doing what Gerrard wants he can be an asset in this squad, but he needs a goal right now as his confidence is shot.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on April 23, 2022, 10:08:15 AM
Tbf I did think the crossing out was a bit too far and not something I'd do to another poster.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.The Greasy will he won’t he debacle last summer really fucked us up.He made ordinary players look better and play better. We went into this season under prepared and half baked.
We didn’t have a plan B on the pitch when Greasy wasn’t playing and we didn’t have a plan B to replace him.
Smith paid the price and nothing we have done since despite spending a £130mil + the Coutinho loan fee has arrested the situation, they waisted the Greasy money .
We are still a PL team struggling without that once in a generation player.How all of this can be blamed on Gerrard I don’t know, the post Greasy Villa is a huge challenge and would tax managers with far more experience than Gerrard.
The blame should be aimed at those responsible for the preparation for the new season and the transfers that were made.
There's a bunch of stuff in there that's irrelevant but the top and bottom lines are the key to the mess we've seen this season and the number of people to blame is huge. I don't think it's accurate or fair to claim that the rest of the squad is ordinary without him or that the signings we made last summer and January are a waste.
Bailey, for example, arrived injured and has never really recovered to get to the level needed in this league. He desperately needs a proper summer this year to get back on track, Digne is quality but has been really unlucky with injurues since he signed and Buendia has shown his quality but we need to work out how to make the best use of him.
Ings I have more concerns with but even then I think if we can get the midfield right and the fullbacks doing what Gerrard wants he can be an asset in this squad, but he needs a goal right now as his confidence is shot.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Post by: Clampy on April 23, 2022, 10:29:00 AM
Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.The Greasy will he won’t he debacle last summer really fucked us up.He made ordinary players look better and play better. We went into this season under prepared and half baked.
We didn’t have a plan B on the pitch when Greasy wasn’t playing and we didn’t have a plan B to replace him.
Smith paid the price and nothing we have done since despite spending a £130mil + the Coutinho loan fee has arrested the situation, they waisted the Greasy money .
We are still a PL team struggling without that once in a generation player.How all of this can be blamed on Gerrard I don’t know, the post Greasy Villa is a huge challenge and would tax managers with far more experience than Gerrard.
The blame should be aimed at those responsible for the preparation for the new season and the transfers that were made.
There's a bunch of stuff in there that's irrelevant but the top and bottom lines are the key to the mess we've seen this season and the number of people to blame is huge. I don't think it's accurate or fair to claim that the rest of the squad is ordinary without him or that the signings we made last summer and January are a waste.
Bailey, for example, arrived injured and has never really recovered to get to the level needed in this league. He desperately needs a proper summer this year to get back on track, Digne is quality but has been really unlucky with injurues since he signed and Buendia has shown his quality but we need to work out how to make the best use of him.
Ings I have more concerns with but even then I think if we can get the midfield right and the fullbacks doing what Gerrard wants he can be an asset in this squad, but he needs a goal right now as his confidence is shot.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Agree. Sorry Paul, that's not on. You're not a headmaster you know.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 23, 2022, 10:49:20 AM
Post by: Mister E on April 23, 2022, 10:50:58 AM
Agree with both of you: mostly obviously demonstrated in the 2 Wolves games this season. We have to find a way of becoming ruthless and clinical throughout the team.To summarise, we’re still an easy pushover and soft as shite when the chips are down. We can outplay anyone but lack the cojones to dig in and play for something. That’s not about the quality of the team that’s about mentality. It needs fixing and I’m sure Gerrard knows who fits into that and who doesn’t.That’s probably the most accurate summary of us I’ve seen. That could have been said for the last two seasons under two different managers now. Which maybe makes me wonder about the mentality of our players and not coaches.
Post by: ez on April 23, 2022, 11:06:11 AM
To summarise, we’re still an easy pushover and soft as shite when the chips are down. We can outplay anyone but lack the cojones to dig in and play for something. That’s not about the quality of the team that’s about mentality. It needs fixing and I’m sure Gerrard knows who fits into that and who doesn’t.
That’s probably the most accurate summary of us I’ve seen. That could have been said for the last two seasons under two different managers now. Which maybe makes me wonder about the mentality of our players and not coaches.
For me there's a difference between last season and this. Last season when we had an outside chance of Europe there was an urgency about the players and a belief they could do it. This season there's no such belief or urgency.
Post by: Ian. on April 23, 2022, 11:35:32 AM
I just remember our flying start to last season then free fall from January onwards.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 11:55:30 AM
Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Post by: algy on April 23, 2022, 12:15:32 PM
With that in mind, I think we've slightly progressed this season despite apparently taking a step back, since you'd say that despite looking a bit rubbish at times, we don't look under particular serious threat from relegation.
I had hoped for more under both Smith & Gerrard - this season feels a little deflating. Still think, though, that win today could catalyse us a bit. I don't think we're that far behind Wolves or West Ham, think it's a gap that could easily be closed with a good bit of business this summer.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 12:25:36 PM
I think Grealish leaving in the summer has really knocked us about. If you look at last season, in the first half of the season we looked like we had an outside chance of European football, and were certainly a top-half side. Without Grealish, we looked very much like a bottom half - probably bottom quarter - side. We'd built an entire system around getting the most out of his talents, which was made redundant once he left (or was injured). I'd also postulate that he won't ever have that again, and so is unlikely to ever be quite as good as he was for us.
With that in mind, I think we've slightly progressed this season despite apparently taking a step back, since you'd say that despite looking a bit rubbish at times, we don't look under particular serious threat from relegation.
I had hoped for more under both Smith & Gerrard - this season feels a little deflating. Still think, though, that win today could catalyse us a bit. I don't think we're that far behind Wolves or West Ham, think it's a gap that could easily be closed with a good bit of business this summer.
Exactly, our summer preperation was a fucking mess, mostly because of Grealish. For me the difference between us under Gerrard compared to Smith is that at the start of the season we looked like a team with a massive hole in it where he should've been, noe we look like a team that has a plan for what we want to do but it just isn't clicking as it should. I honestly think 2-3 players added to this squad would be enough to get us battling for Europe, so long as 1 of them stops us from being so soft defending counter-attacks.
Post by: olaftab on April 23, 2022, 12:31:27 PM
Agree. Sorry Paul, that's not on. You're not a headmaster you know.How do we know? paul e may well be cane holding Sir Dumbledore.
Post by: Drummond on April 23, 2022, 12:36:54 PM
Exactly Paul, this group of players has been underperforming since the start of January 2021. They might be internationals, but they're massively inconsistent, and if they lose today it'll be the second time they've lost 5 games in a row in a season, under two different managers. I'm not sure what it's going to take before the penny drops that perhaps these players just maybe ain't all that.
We don't need a total rebuild but we do need 3-4 quality additions down the spine of the team.
Shame Dean Smith got the sack for them not being good enough.
Post by: olaftab on April 23, 2022, 12:42:01 PM
Exactly Paul, this group of players has been underperforming since the start of January 2021. They might be internationals, but they're massively inconsistent, and if they lose today it'll be the second time they've lost 5 games in a row in a season,And that's why Purslow had to appoint the right man to get consistent performance out of this squad but....
Post by: TonyD on April 23, 2022, 01:14:05 PM
But I doubt he would have been as good under SG.
He can’t consistently get a tune out of Phil.
Post by: gpbarr on April 23, 2022, 01:14:07 PM
Exactly Paul, this group of players has been underperforming since the start of January 2021. They might be internationals, but they're massively inconsistent, and if they lose today it'll be the second time they've lost 5 games in a row in a season,And that's why Purslow had to appoint the right man to get consistent performance out of this squad but....
…. he appointed a novice for which there is simply no excuse. Edens and Sawiris need to fire them both ASAP before lasting damage is done
Post by: Toronto Villa on April 23, 2022, 01:39:23 PM
Exactly Paul, this group of players has been underperforming since the start of January 2021. They might be internationals, but they're massively inconsistent, and if they lose today it'll be the second time they've lost 5 games in a row in a season,And that's why Purslow had to appoint the right man to get consistent performance out of this squad but....
After only 6 months in the job and a January transfer window how do you know he’s not the right man?
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 01:48:48 PM
We were never going down under dean.
SG was bought in because they thought Dean would be able to take us to the next level
Post by: olaftab on April 23, 2022, 01:52:36 PM
I don’t but performance and stats are abundantly clear on that.Exactly Paul, this group of players has been underperforming since the start of January 2021. They might be internationals, but they're massively inconsistent, and if they lose today it'll be the second time they've lost 5 games in a row in a season,And that's why Purslow had to appoint the right man to get consistent performance out of this squad but....
After only 6 months in the job and a January transfer window how do you know he’s not the right man?
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 23, 2022, 02:15:32 PM
I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on April 23, 2022, 04:24:38 PM
Poor tactics, poor team selections, poor man-management (*telling the players' they're shite and they're going to be replaced in the summer).
Don't give this chancer a penny - Get rid before the summer window.
The team are devoid of EVERYTHING resembling a coherent football team. Gerrard Out.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 04:38:08 PM
I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Whatever you say.
Post by: TonyD on April 23, 2022, 04:57:27 PM
You know what - I'm out of patience. Seen enough to know this isn't going to work.Spot on
Poor tactics, poor team selections, poor man-management (*telling the players' they're shite and they're going to be replaced in the summer).
Don't give this chancer a penny - Get rid before the summer window.
The team are devoid of EVERYTHING resembling a coherent football team. Gerrard Out.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 23, 2022, 04:58:54 PM
Aspergers?I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Whatever you say.
Post by: Richard on April 23, 2022, 04:59:38 PM
You know what - I'm out of patience. Seen enough to know this isn't going to work.Spot on
Poor tactics, poor team selections, poor man-management (*telling the players' they're shite and they're going to be replaced in the summer).
Don't give this chancer a penny - Get rid before the summer window.
The team are devoid of EVERYTHING resembling a coherent football team. Gerrard Out.
Yawn.....
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 23, 2022, 05:00:29 PM
Aspergers?I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Whatever you say.
No need for that.
Post by: LeeB on April 23, 2022, 05:01:57 PM
Post by: gpbarr on April 23, 2022, 05:10:09 PM
You know what - I'm out of patience. Seen enough to know this isn't going to work.Spot on
Poor tactics, poor team selections, poor man-management (*telling the players' they're shite and they're going to be replaced in the summer).
Don't give this chancer a penny - Get rid before the summer window.
The team are devoid of EVERYTHING resembling a coherent football team. Gerrard Out.
The Gerrard apologists will be out in force again. But it’s inexcusable that after 22 games, that’s what he’s developed. OUT now
Post by: Nii Lamptey on April 23, 2022, 05:10:47 PM
You know what - I'm out of patience. Seen enough to know this isn't going to work.Spot on
Poor tactics, poor team selections, poor man-management (*telling the players' they're shite and they're going to be replaced in the summer).
Don't give this chancer a penny - Get rid before the summer window.
The team are devoid of EVERYTHING resembling a coherent football team. Gerrard Out.
Yawn.....
Quite an apt response, seeing as that's what most Villa fans watching the game would have spent the afternoon doing. Turgid football.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 05:15:57 PM
Aspergers?I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Whatever you say.
For someone calling me rude that's a truly pathetic reply, not a surprise though.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 23, 2022, 05:19:40 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 23, 2022, 05:22:46 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 23, 2022, 05:27:24 PM
Yes the performance wasn’t great, but a team lacking in confidence after a run of defeats is hardly surprising. A point away isn’t to be sniffed at.
Post by: rob_bridge on April 23, 2022, 05:27:43 PM
We appear to be seeing the Benitez playbook, but missing some crucial elements. He's got the negative, eye-bleeding football down pat. It's the not losing and sometimes winning thing he's still to get to grips with.
Good summary Mr West London Resident
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 23, 2022, 05:28:04 PM
Post by: TonyD on April 23, 2022, 05:29:58 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 23, 2022, 05:30:24 PM
Aspergers?I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Whatever you say.
You were actually winning. Then you have to go and spoil it all.
Post by: Drummond on April 23, 2022, 05:51:40 PM
Aspergers?I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Whatever you say.
That's offensive, discriminatory and unpleasant. Get a grip of yourself.
Post by: LukeJames on April 23, 2022, 05:52:25 PM
I'm almost certain what will happen though is we'll spunk one hundred odd million in the summer on older players on big contracts and then be looking for another new manager around November.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on April 23, 2022, 05:53:35 PM
Aspergers?I have not seen crossing out like that on here.Well thanks for marking my paper, I find that a bit rude but you obviously have some issues.
You might need to consider that yours is not the only valid opinion on here and you are not the final arbiter.
Or you could read it that I was sharing my opinion that the stuff in the middle wasn't particularly important. Crossing it out was just easier and I didn't expect anyone to get upset over it, particulalry given how often I've seen, on this forum, lines snipped from a quote or something altered with a 'fixed that for you' comment.
Too full of your own self importance to realise.
Whatever you say.
Whatever emotions my autistic nephew can or cannot read, I can guarantee he'd still figure out you were a prick for replying with that.
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 05:54:04 PM
Im just not sure but im leaning towards out. I dont think theres any chance of him going though.I think this is the most likely thing to happen - but hopefully not
I'm almost certain what will happen though is we'll spunk one hundred odd million in the summer on older players on big contracts and then be looking for another new manager around November.
Post by: TelfordVilla on April 23, 2022, 06:12:07 PM
100% this is going to happenIm just not sure but im leaning towards out. I dont think theres any chance of him going though.I think this is the most likely thing to happen - but hopefully not
I'm almost certain what will happen though is we'll spunk one hundred odd million in the summer on older players on big contracts and then be looking for another new manager around November.
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 06:17:59 PM
We played pretty rubbish - but I think he just decided there is no way were losing that - and as such I guess that a positive
I do still have a load of concerns - as every player has regressed under him - even his mate Phil.
I dont know if we would be able to get anyone better in now - as from an outside perspective I think we look a bit of a mess if he goes, so I can't see us getting Eleven Hag
Short of throwing all our money at Poch I think our only option is to back him and hope somewhere in there we find a top manager
It all just a bit underwhelming - it seems like he doesnt have faith in many of the players, and many of the players dont have faith in him.
Our Grealish upgrade looks more likely to go then stay, and all our signings from last summer dont seem to feature in our future.
I think we wont find it easy to reshape the squad as I think we have a worse hand than we did last season
Given where we were at the end of last season this is hugely disapointing - and looks like we have managed to do a villa and blow it just when we seemed to be getting things right
I think this will be a real test of the mettle of our owners - as I think they will be writing off 100s of millons over the next couple of years and there is a very good chance we wont be any further forward
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 23, 2022, 06:19:03 PM
You know what - I'm out of patience. Seen enough to know this isn't going to work.Spot on
Poor tactics, poor team selections, poor man-management (*telling the players' they're shite and they're going to be replaced in the summer).
Don't give this chancer a penny - Get rid before the summer window.
The team are devoid of EVERYTHING resembling a coherent football team. Gerrard Out.
The Gerrard apologists will be out in force again. But it’s inexcusable that after 22 games, that’s what he’s developed. OUT now
All about opinions I suppose but I think it’s massively over the top to react like that. We drew away - what an utter disgrace….
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 06:19:11 PM
We played pretty rubbish - but I think he just decided there is no way were losing that - and as such I guess that a positive
I do still have a load of concerns - as every player has regressed under him - even his mate Phil.
I dont know if we would be able to get anyone better in now - as from an outside perspective I think we look a bit of a mess if he goes, so I can't see us getting Eleven Hag
Short of throwing all our money at Poch I think our only option is to back him and hope somewhere in there we find a top manager
It all just a bit underwhelming - it seems like he doesnt have faith in many of the players, and many of the players dont have faith in him.
Our Grealish upgrade looks more likely to go then stay, and all our signings from last summer dont seem to feature in our future.
I think we wont find it easy to reshape the squad as I think we have a worse hand than we did last season
Given where we were at the end of last season this is hugely disapointing - and looks like we have managed to do a villa and blow it just when we seemed to be getting things right
I think this will be a real test of the mettle of our owners - as I think they will be writing off 100s of millons over the next couple of years and there is a very good chance we wont be any further forward
Post by: Goldenballs on April 23, 2022, 07:14:45 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 23, 2022, 07:17:56 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 23, 2022, 07:19:51 PM
Spurs have not registered a shot on target since April 9th. Since they stuck 4 past us.
In fairness they only managed about four shots against us!
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 07:21:35 PM
Every player has regressed under him? Not sure about that. A lot of players were having poor seasons anyway (Watkins, Ings, Konsa, Doug, and McGinn). There are players who have clearly moved forward in Cash and Marv. I also think Ramsey has continued his upward trend.Yeah thats fair on Cash and Ramsey - but I would expect him to get more out of the players that he has as we know they are better than they have been playing.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 23, 2022, 07:24:42 PM
Spurs have not registered a shot on target since April 9th. Since they stuck 4 past us.
Also before today's game we hadn't registered a single shot on target since April 9th. It's no wonder we aren't winning games.
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 07:28:15 PM
We havent played since the 9th though?Spurs have not registered a shot on target since April 9th. Since they stuck 4 past us.
Also before today's game we hadn't registered a single shot on target since April 9th. It's no wonder we aren't winning games.
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 23, 2022, 07:31:15 PM
Post by: Mister E on April 23, 2022, 07:32:16 PM
I think he did ok today. I think he went with the mindset that he was determinded not to lose, and we didnt.... you doing okay to this point.
We played pretty rubbish ...
We weren't rubbish. We did okay but failed to make the most of the chances that fell to us: our play in the final third was poor.
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 07:43:44 PM
Ok rubbish is harsh - but we didnt play well - and the first half in particularly was weak, we kept giving the ball away and the playing it around at the back was looking pretty hab-hazard at pointsI think he did ok today. I think he went with the mindset that he was determinded not to lose, and we didnt.... you doing okay to this point.
We played pretty rubbish ...
We weren't rubbish. We did okay but failed to make the most of the chances that fell to us: our play in the final third was poor.
I would say overall they were the better side in the match and they didnt play great either
The game plan was clearly to not lose, and we didnt so thats something
Post by: Risso on April 23, 2022, 07:45:35 PM
We havent played since the 9th though?Spurs have not registered a shot on target since April 9th. Since they stuck 4 past us.
Also before today's game we hadn't registered a single shot on target since April 9th. It's no wonder we aren't winning games.
Like an Ollie Watkins shot, that's gone whistling over your head!
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 07:47:50 PM
Ok fair enough. Surely its customary to at least do one of those winky faces for those of us who are hard of thinkingWe havent played since the 9th though?Spurs have not registered a shot on target since April 9th. Since they stuck 4 past us.
Also before today's game we hadn't registered a single shot on target since April 9th. It's no wonder we aren't winning games.
Like an Ollie Watkins shot, that's gone whistling over your head!
Post by: Goldenballs on April 23, 2022, 07:53:25 PM
Post by: Risso on April 23, 2022, 08:27:58 PM
Brighton and Brentford have managed to limit Spurs to 0 shots on target, yet they ripped us to shreds in the 2nd half. Our tactics, or lack thereof, played right into their hands.
Don’t agree. Their goals were down to individual mistakes. They had 5 shots and scored 4.
Post by: exiled on the wirral! on April 23, 2022, 08:28:14 PM
..or maybe I just miss Deano.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 23, 2022, 08:32:01 PM
Brighton and Brentford have managed to limit Spurs to 0 shots on target, yet they ripped us to shreds in the 2nd half. Our tactics, or lack thereof, played right into their hands.
Don’t agree. Their goals were down to individual mistakes. They had 5 shots and scored 4.
Kane dropped deeper, they started playing more direct and we did nothing. Long ball out of defence, Kane flick on, Son goal.
When they're 3 up after 60 mins they're hardly going to go all out attack and pepper our goal. They saw the game out well, we barely laid a glove on them 2nd half. And the stats I've seen say they had 11 shots which is more like what I recall.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 23, 2022, 08:45:49 PM
We havent played since the 9th though?Spurs have not registered a shot on target since April 9th. Since they stuck 4 past us.
Also before today's game we hadn't registered a single shot on target since April 9th. It's no wonder we aren't winning games.
Like an Ollie Watkins shot, that's gone whistling over your head!
As if Watkins would ever put enough power behind a shot to take it over head-height!
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 23, 2022, 08:49:03 PM
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 23, 2022, 09:19:37 PM
I think he did ok today. I think he went with the mindset that he was determinded not to lose, and we didnt.
We played pretty rubbish - but I think he just decided there is no way were losing that - and as such I guess that a positive
I do still have a load of concerns - as every player has regressed under him - even his mate Phil.
I dont know if we would be able to get anyone better in now - as from an outside perspective I think we look a bit of a mess if he goes, so I can't see us getting Eleven Hag
Short of throwing all our money at Poch I think our only option is to back him and hope somewhere in there we find a top manager
It all just a bit underwhelming - it seems like he doesnt have faith in many of the players, and many of the players dont have faith in him.
Our Grealish upgrade looks more likely to go then stay, and all our signings from last summer dont seem to feature in our future.
I think we wont find it easy to reshape the squad as I think we have a worse hand than we did last season
Given where we were at the end of last season this is hugely disapointing - and looks like we have managed to do a villa and blow it just when we seemed to be getting things right
I think this will be a real test of the mettle of our owners - as I think they will be writing off 100s of millons over the next couple of years and there is a very good chance we wont be any further forward
Pretty good summary although don’t agree with being able to get better than Gerrard and ‘our Grealish upgrade’ well we haven’t at all have we, Coutinho isn’t a patch on our previous talisman.
Post by: django on April 23, 2022, 09:20:28 PM
Post by: Risso on April 23, 2022, 09:26:46 PM
If we assume that 5 straight losses results in a sacking at VP, if Dean Smith had managed to secure a draw at Southampton would he have survived beyond 5th November?
I think it was 5 straight losses on top a whole year of a-point-a-game form.
Post by: rougegorge on April 23, 2022, 09:38:08 PM
I know stats can be misleading, but although they scored 4, the XG for Spurs was below 2, and below our own XG, which says something about the game and nature of the goals.Brighton and Brentford have managed to limit Spurs to 0 shots on target, yet they ripped us to shreds in the 2nd half. Our tactics, or lack thereof, played right into their hands.
Don’t agree. Their goals were down to individual mistakes. They had 5 shots and scored 4.
Kane dropped deeper, they started playing more direct and we did nothing. Long ball out of defence, Kane flick on, Son goal.
When they're 3 up after 60 mins they're hardly going to go all out attack and pepper our goal. They saw the game out well, we barely laid a glove on them 2nd half. And the stats I've seen say they had 11 shots which is more like what I recall.
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 23, 2022, 09:38:57 PM
Whether you want him sacked or not he’s done nothing so far to change the minds of those that didn’t want him.
Maybe not, but I suspect a number of those weren’t/aren’t going to change their minds irrespective of what happens.
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2022, 09:42:55 PM
Whether you want him sacked or not he’s done nothing so far to change the minds of those that didn’t want him.
Maybe not, but I suspect a number of those weren’t/aren’t going to change their minds irrespective of what happens.
Yep. Being right on thr Internet is an important business.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 23, 2022, 09:48:22 PM
Whether you want him sacked or not he’s done nothing so far to change the minds of those that didn’t want him.
Maybe not, but I suspect a number of those weren’t/aren’t going to change their minds irrespective of what happens.
I always find this comment very strange, you think people wouldn't admit they were wrong if we got into Europe or won the league Cup?
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2022, 09:49:55 PM
If they were wrong, they'd most likely disappear like that bloke who was adamant Benteke was shit.
Post by: Beard82 on April 23, 2022, 09:51:39 PM
They don't think that's going to happen though, so it's low risk.Brecon Rogers?
If they were wrong, they'd most likely disappear like that bloke who was adamant Benteke was shit.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 23, 2022, 10:08:56 PM
Ok fair enough. Surely its customary to at least do one of those winky faces for those of us who are hard of thinkingWe havent played since the 9th though?Spurs have not registered a shot on target since April 9th. Since they stuck 4 past us.
Also before today's game we hadn't registered a single shot on target since April 9th. It's no wonder we aren't winning games.
Like an Ollie Watkins shot, that's gone whistling over your head!
Nah, where would be the fun in that? ;)
Post by: Nelly on April 23, 2022, 10:13:08 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 23, 2022, 10:17:23 PM
If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.
Not convinced they would. I agree on scrutiny, but I think some of the stuff off the back of an away draw is way over the top.
Post by: Nelly on April 23, 2022, 10:23:31 PM
If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.
Not convinced they would. I agree on scrutiny, but I think some of the stuff off the back of an away draw is way over the top.
In isolation, an away draw is good, I agree. From reading the forum, I think the worry is coming from the way we are playing currently. The loss of confidence, the poor form of individuals. The rhetoric that players will just be replaced.
For me, it looks like Villa have sort of abandoned the DoF gradual build model and we're going back to the Ellis style of 'new manager - new players' and wholesale changes. I thought with Smith formerly being head coach, the idea had been that if we needed to change management, we would get someone of a similar tactic mindset, so we could have some stability with the playing squad. So it's a worry to see all of that turfed up. It might be that it all works out but we were doing good things previously and just seem to have ditched them.
Personally I would have expected more of a new manager bounce and to have arrested the slide in confidence of our players.
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2022, 10:24:09 PM
If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.
The few who are so vehemently against his appointment, who are so vociferous now, were voices of patience when we were 13th in February under Smith. I disagree. They're against Gerrard, regardless. They were just quiet a few games ago when we were demolishing Leeds etc. If we whack Norwich the weekend, it will go quiet again or maybe we won't have whacked them enough.
Post by: Nelly on April 23, 2022, 10:30:01 PM
If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.
They're against Gerrard, regardless.
That's quite possibly true, but I still think if Villa were playing a bit better as a team we wouldn't see the dissent. I think it's fair enough if someone was not convinced to start with, to see the fluctuation and worsening of our form, that they might be less and less convinced by the manager. Equally, the better we play the more convinced a supporter might be. I just think Villa need to start showing more. Then all criticism falls away. Well, until the next crisis.
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 23, 2022, 10:32:05 PM
Post by: algy on April 23, 2022, 10:50:08 PM
I think a proportion of the anti-Gerrard sentiment is born purely because folk are a bit downhearted with Smith getting the sack, especially when the outcome has been ... well, it's conceivable that Smith could've got us to a similar position. You have to ask whether Gerrard is actually a big upgrade on Smith.If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.
The few who are so vehemently against his appointment, who are so vociferous now, were voices of patience when we were 13th in February under Smith. I disagree. They're against Gerrard, regardless. They were just quiet a few games ago when we were demolishing Leeds etc. If we whack Norwich the weekend, it will go quiet again or maybe we won't have whacked them enough.
Now, personally, I'd have been happy to give Smith a few more games, but think it's hard to argue that the sacking wasn't justified given the poor run we'd had for pretty much the whole of 2021.
Gerrard has done alright so far, I'd hoped for a top half finish so it's a tad underwhelming, but not exceptionally so. I'd be happy backing him fully in the summer. I can't say I don't have any misgivings, but he's been happy to give Chuky, Iroegbunam & now Chrisene games, and has brought Ramsey on leaps & bounds (obvs much down to Ramsey himself). So, for me, he gets this summer and a fair crack at next season.
Post by: TonyD on April 23, 2022, 10:53:30 PM
I think there are some rational concerns to be had, but nothing that suggests he shouldn’t be given more time. As Ads says I think a good number who were against him at the start are very comfortable calling for him to be out now. My personal view is that he, like any manager, needs time. It doesn’t mean it’ll work, but it’s the only way of finding out for sure.Nothing suggests he should be given more time.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 23, 2022, 10:53:38 PM
I think a proportion of the anti-Gerrard sentiment is born purely because folk are a bit downhearted with Smith getting the sack, especially when the outcome has been ... well, it's conceivable that Smith could've got us to a similar position. You have to ask whether Gerrard is actually a big upgrade on Smith.If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.
The few who are so vehemently against his appointment, who are so vociferous now, were voices of patience when we were 13th in February under Smith. I disagree. They're against Gerrard, regardless. They were just quiet a few games ago when we were demolishing Leeds etc. If we whack Norwich the weekend, it will go quiet again or maybe we won't have whacked them enough.
Now, personally, I'd have been happy to give Smith a few more games, but think it's hard to argue that the sacking wasn't justified given the poor run we'd had for pretty much the whole of 2021.
Gerrard has done alright so far, I'd hoped for a top half finish so it's a tad underwhelming, but not exceptionally so. I'd be happy backing him fully in the summer. I can't say I don't have any misgivings, but he's been happy to give Chuky, Iroegbunam & now Chrisene games, and has brought Ramsey on leaps & bounds (obvs much down to Ramsey himself). So, for me, he gets this summer and a fair crack at next season.
When was this?
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2022, 10:55:03 PM
I think there are some rational concerns to be had, but nothing that suggests he shouldn’t be given more time. As Ads says I think a good number who were against him at the start are very comfortable calling for him to be out now. My personal view is that he, like any manager, needs time. It doesn’t mean it’ll work, but it’s the only way of finding out for sure.Nothing suggests he should be given more time.
That implies you've given him some time, which isn't true, as you've given him none.
Post by: algy on April 23, 2022, 10:56:39 PM
(Checks match report)I think a proportion of the anti-Gerrard sentiment is born purely because folk are a bit downhearted with Smith getting the sack, especially when the outcome has been ... well, it's conceivable that Smith could've got us to a similar position. You have to ask whether Gerrard is actually a big upgrade on Smith.If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.
The few who are so vehemently against his appointment, who are so vociferous now, were voices of patience when we were 13th in February under Smith. I disagree. They're against Gerrard, regardless. They were just quiet a few games ago when we were demolishing Leeds etc. If we whack Norwich the weekend, it will go quiet again or maybe we won't have whacked them enough.
Now, personally, I'd have been happy to give Smith a few more games, but think it's hard to argue that the sacking wasn't justified given the poor run we'd had for pretty much the whole of 2021.
Gerrard has done alright so far, I'd hoped for a top half finish so it's a tad underwhelming, but not exceptionally so. I'd be happy backing him fully in the summer. I can't say I don't have any misgivings, but he's been happy to give Chuky, Iroegbunam & now Chrisene games, and has brought Ramsey on leaps & bounds (obvs much down to Ramsey himself). So, for me, he gets this summer and a fair crack at next season.
When was this?
In my imagination.
Post by: Deano's Mullet on April 23, 2022, 10:59:32 PM
Post by: TonyD on April 23, 2022, 11:07:14 PM
He has had 5 months and absolutely nothing about the team suggests he is going to succeed. Quite the opposite.I think there are some rational concerns to be had, but nothing that suggests he shouldn’t be given more time. As Ads says I think a good number who were against him at the start are very comfortable calling for him to be out now. My personal view is that he, like any manager, needs time. It doesn’t mean it’ll work, but it’s the only way of finding out for sure.Nothing suggests he should be given more time.
That implies you've given him some time, which isn't true, as you've given him none.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 11:07:28 PM
I'm largely the same with players as well, until they've had a full pre-season with the club it's hard to know exactly how well they fit in.
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2022, 11:08:29 PM
He has had 5 months and absolutely nothing about the team suggests he is going to succeed. Quite the opposite.I think there are some rational concerns to be had, but nothing that suggests he shouldn’t be given more time. As Ads says I think a good number who were against him at the start are very comfortable calling for him to be out now. My personal view is that he, like any manager, needs time. It doesn’t mean it’ll work, but it’s the only way of finding out for sure.Nothing suggests he should be given more time.
That implies you've given him some time, which isn't true, as you've given him none.
You hope he doesn't succeed, as you've given him no time whatsoever. Why pretend otherwise?
Post by: django on April 23, 2022, 11:09:10 PM
Just taking our last few managerial appointments…Dean Smith wasn’t a universally popular appointment, but we improved and he won the people who were underwhelmed over. Bruce was a pretty unpopular appointment but again I’d say he won people over in the short term with results, (before losing them again cos Bruce). Di Matteo felt like people were prepared to give him a go based on his European cup success and a feeling that he’d be good in the championship but he obviously used up any good will in no time. It’s results and performances.
Gerrard hasn’t got a stellar CV so while some people were impressed with the stature his playing career brings and the potential he showed in Scotland, a lot of people were, again, underwhelmed.
Since then he’s delivered a marginal improvement in return (on a points per game basis) on the form that got Smith sacked. However our form has slumped in recent weeks and a lot of the positivity around the club and our direction of travel has disappeared in the last couple of months.
For me, although I wasn’t impressed with the appointment (seemed to me unnecessarily smalltime and lacking in ambition) this feels like too small a sample size to really make a judgement on his abilities so I wouldn’t personally get rid now if I was in charge.
But it seems weird to be acting as if people have some sort of irrational vendetta against Gerrard when it’s simply that he’s not been very good so far.
Post by: Goldenballs on April 23, 2022, 11:14:47 PM
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 11:16:01 PM
I don’t see why anyone is surprised or bothered by the people who didn’t want him then still not wanting him now though.
Just taking our last few managerial appointments…Dean Smith wasn’t a universally popular appointment, but we improved and he won the people who were underwhelmed over. Bruce was a pretty unpopular appointment but again I’d say he won people over in the short term with results, (before losing them again cos Bruce). Di Matteo felt like people were prepared to give him a go based on his European cup success and a feeling that he’d be good in the championship but he obviously used up any good will in no time. It’s results and performances.
Gerrard hasn’t got a stellar CV so while some people were impressed with the stature his playing career brings and the potential he showed in Scotland, a lot of people were, again, underwhelmed.
Since then he’s delivered a marginal improvement in return (on a points per game basis) on the form that got Smith sacked. However our form has slumped in recent weeks and a lot of the positivity around the club and our direction of travel has disappeared in the last couple of months.
For me, although I wasn’t impressed with the appointment (seemed to me unnecessarily smalltime and lacking in ambition) this feels like too small a sample size to really make a judgement on his abilities so I wouldn’t personally get rid now if I was in charge.
But it seems weird to be acting as if people have some sort of irrational vendetta against Gerrard when it’s simply that he’s not been very good so far.
The bold bit is the problem really. He's our manager now so whatever concerns people had (me included) you have to park them for a while and give him time. With some posters it seems as if they were never willing to do that, which is their choice, but it does mean that when they post things like "he'll get sacked if we don't get x points in the last 6" it's hard not to think they're projecting their original dislike of him onto the board and will only be upset when he's still here in September.
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 23, 2022, 11:19:36 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 23, 2022, 11:19:58 PM
I guess that's a consequence of us settling back into premier league mid table after a decade away but I'm not even looking forward to watching our games for first time in a few years given the journey we were previously on.
I think the reservations about style of play and formation have been very justified in last two months whenever we play a top half team.
A DM will help but not convinced it will solve everything as there's so many question marks in final third for us and don't think one transfer window solves everything.
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2022, 11:23:22 PM
For me we've just gone back to being boring. Flat. Turgid. Whatever.
I guess that's a consequence of us settling back into premier league mid table after a decade away but I'm not even looking forward to watching our games for first time in a few years given the journey we were previously on.
I think the reservations about style of play and formation have been very justified in last two months whenever we play a top half team.
A DM will help but not convinced it will solve everything as there's so many question marks in final third for us and don't think one transfer window solves everything.
And Leicester were what?
Post by: Goldenballs on April 23, 2022, 11:26:02 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 23, 2022, 11:27:31 PM
For me we've just gone back to being boring. Flat. Turgid. Whatever.
I guess that's a consequence of us settling back into premier league mid table after a decade away but I'm not even looking forward to watching our games for first time in a few years given the journey we were previously on.
I think the reservations about style of play and formation have been very justified in last two months whenever we play a top half team.
A DM will help but not convinced it will solve everything as there's so many question marks in final third for us and don't think one transfer window solves everything.
And Leicester were what?
I could live with the little Leicester did today if we were in europa SF. And had won the FA cup 12 months ago. And finished 5th in consecutive seasons. They've still got to play likes of Norwich and Everton at home so even in half arsed state will probably finish above us again.
Look at our record v top 10 teams since Gerrard came in. Think it's two points from today and Man. United and we simply just don't have enough belief or drive in these games. From first 20 minutes we just had a look of team who wanted the 0-0 and that's fair enough when you've lost four straight but ultimately we need to be seriously challenging likes of Leicester, West Ham and Wolves sooner or later and four points out of 18 isn't really good enough to be finishing above any of them.
Hope for better next season but there's real limitations in how we play with this set up against organised teams, been pretty evident for a while now.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 11:28:36 PM
The obvious aim is to be defensively solid and create loads of chances but a game like spurs blows a hole in that plan for a while.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 11:30:59 PM
For me we've just gone back to being boring. Flat. Turgid. Whatever.
I guess that's a consequence of us settling back into premier league mid table after a decade away but I'm not even looking forward to watching our games for first time in a few years given the journey we were previously on.
I think the reservations about style of play and formation have been very justified in last two months whenever we play a top half team.
A DM will help but not convinced it will solve everything as there's so many question marks in final third for us and don't think one transfer window solves everything.
And Leicester were what?
I could live with the little Leicester did today if we were in europa SF. And had won the FA cup 12 months ago. And finished 5th in consecutive seasons. They've still got to play likes of Norwich and Everton at home so even in half arsed state will probably finish above us again.
Look at our record v top 10 teams since Gerrard came in. Think it's two points from today and Man. United and we simply just don't have enough belief or drive in these games. From first 20 minutes we just had a look of team who wanted the 0-0 and that's fair enough when you've lost four straight but ultimately we need to be seriously challenging likes of Leicester, West Ham and Wolves sooner or later and four points out of 18 isn't really good enough to be finishing above any of them.
Hope for better next season but there's real limitations in how we play with this set up against organised teams, been pretty evident for a while now.
That's a really arbitrary break point you've used there given 10 out of the last 24 is also true but doesn't support your point as well.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 23, 2022, 11:37:54 PM
We had a poor record v West Ham under DS so was hoping we'd get in their faces more under Gerrard. Instead we lost there pretty meekly when Burnley got a 1-1 in similar circumstances (playing them straight after euro game).
Wolves we were poor for first hour. They lost two games either side of playing us so not like they're in incredible form.
Notice I haven't included Arsenal or Spurs losses in this as I don't think there's any prospect of challenging either next season but again Arsenal at home up to 75th minute was as passive a performance as you can get.
I think we're just too easy to nullify with our style. Perhaps the new DM will solve everything but think we'll run into more roadblocks next season in final third.
Post by: ROBBO on April 23, 2022, 11:39:21 PM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 23, 2022, 11:41:17 PM
Sack him and who we replace him with?
Dean Smith no Sean Dyche.
Post by: django on April 23, 2022, 11:46:27 PM
I don’t see why anyone is surprised or bothered by the people who didn’t want him then still not wanting him now though.
Just taking our last few managerial appointments…Dean Smith wasn’t a universally popular appointment, but we improved and he won the people who were underwhelmed over. Bruce was a pretty unpopular appointment but again I’d say he won people over in the short term with results, (before losing them again cos Bruce). Di Matteo felt like people were prepared to give him a go based on his European cup success and a feeling that he’d be good in the championship but he obviously used up any good will in no time. It’s results and performances.
Gerrard hasn’t got a stellar CV so while some people were impressed with the stature his playing career brings and the potential he showed in Scotland, a lot of people were, again, underwhelmed.
Since then he’s delivered a marginal improvement in return (on a points per game basis) on the form that got Smith sacked. However our form has slumped in recent weeks and a lot of the positivity around the club and our direction of travel has disappeared in the last couple of months.
For me, although I wasn’t impressed with the appointment (seemed to me unnecessarily smalltime and lacking in ambition) this feels like too small a sample size to really make a judgement on his abilities so I wouldn’t personally get rid now if I was in charge.
But it seems weird to be acting as if people have some sort of irrational vendetta against Gerrard when it’s simply that he’s not been very good so far.
The bold bit is the problem really. He's our manager now so whatever concerns people had (me included) you have to park them for a while and give him time. With some posters it seems as if they were never willing to do that, which is their choice, but it does mean that when they post things like "he'll get sacked if we don't get x points in the last 6" it's hard not to think they're projecting their original dislike of him onto the board and will only be upset when he's still here in September.
Firstly, how dare you highlight my text in bold!!!
😉
I guess I think it’s reasonable for people to project their dislike onto him based on our current performances. If we were consistently playing well and or winning games/ showing improvement and people still had it in for him that would be worthy of calling out. As it is he’s the one person who can win his doubters round.
I imagine we’ll pick up another 7-10 points this season and go into the summer with pretty much everyone feeling positive. Significantly less than that and I think even some of those who were behind his appointment would be having second thoughts.
Post by: paul_e on April 23, 2022, 11:48:22 PM
I meant when we play v West Ham, Wolves and Leicester rather than the general run of form.
We had a poor record v West Ham under DS so was hoping we'd get in their faces more under Gerrard. Instead we lost there pretty meekly when Burnley got a 1-1 in similar circumstances (playing them straight after euro game).
Wolves we were poor for first hour. They lost two games either side of playing us so not like they're in incredible form.
Notice I haven't included Arsenal or Spurs losses in this as I don't think there's any prospect of challenging either next season but again Arsenal at home up to 75th minute was as passive a performance as you can get.
I think we're just too easy to nullify with our style. Perhaps the new DM will solve everything but think we'll run into more roadblocks next season in final third.
Fair, didn't read it that way.
Post by: Villan82 on April 23, 2022, 11:49:01 PM
27 points from 21 games is better than 10 points from 11 games. And, of course, we had a bad end to 2020-21 season..
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 23, 2022, 11:58:52 PM
Some folks aren't so good at maths.
27 points from 21 games is better than 10 points from 11 games. And, of course, we had a bad end to 2020-21 season..
Clearly!
Post by: olaftab on April 24, 2022, 12:04:56 AM
Some folks aren't so good at maths.It's a useless comparison. There is nothing to suggest that in his next 10 games Smith would have not picked up 17 points and TBH 27 from 21 is nothing home to write about.
27 points from 21 games is better than 10 points from 11 games. And, of course, we had a bad end to 2020-21 season..
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 24, 2022, 12:06:38 AM
Some folks aren't so good at maths.
27 points from 21 games is better than 10 points from 11 games. And, of course, we had a bad end to 2020-21 season..
From memory I thought we took 10 points from 6 games at the end of last season including beating spuds away and chelski at home.
Post by: olaftab on April 24, 2022, 12:08:48 AM
Not bothered about Leicester. They can be as s**t as they like.For me we've just gone back to being boring. Flat. Turgid. Whatever.
I guess that's a consequence of us settling back into premier league mid table after a decade away but I'm not even looking forward to watching our games for first time in a few years given the journey we were previously on.
I think the reservations about style of play and formation have been very justified in last two months whenever we play a top half team.
A DM will help but not convinced it will solve everything as there's so many question marks in final third for us and don't think one transfer window solves everything.
And Leicester were what?
Post by: Risso on April 24, 2022, 12:14:39 AM
There is nothing to suggest that in his next 10 games Smith would have not picked up 17 points
Other than the fact that we were getting battered in every single game and teams were wiping the floor with us.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on April 24, 2022, 12:29:37 AM
Some folks aren't so good at maths.
27 points from 21 games is better than 10 points from 11 games. And, of course, we had a bad end to 2020-21 season..
From memory I thought we took 10 points from 6 games at the end of last season including beating spuds away and chelski at home.
Well yeah, but you can't include those cos, well, that'd make things look better. Smith out.
Post by: olaftab on April 24, 2022, 12:29:38 AM
Ah NO not really. Other than the West Ham home match we more or less were reasonably competitive in most matchesThere is nothing to suggest that in his next 10 games Smith would have not picked up 17 points
Other than the fact that we were getting battered in every single game and teams were wiping the floor with us.
Post by: Risso on April 24, 2022, 12:46:03 AM
Ah NO not really. Other than the West Ham home match we more or less were reasonably competitive in most matchesThere is nothing to suggest that in his next 10 games Smith would have not picked up 17 points
Other than the fact that we were getting battered in every single game and teams were wiping the floor with us.
Arsenal could have scored 8 or 9. It was the worst half of football in years. Southampton wasn’t much better.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 24, 2022, 01:12:20 AM
There is nothing to suggest that in his next 10 games Smith would have not picked up 17 points
Other than the fact that we were getting battered in every single game and teams were wiping the floor with us.
Unlike now?!
For the record, I'm not pining for Smith. I like the guy, and I'm grateful for what he did for us, but he took us a long way; probably as far as he could have. If he was a miracle-worker he'd have done better at Norwich.
My issue is replacing him with a novice whose main experience has been playing second fiddle to Neil Lennon in a pub league.
Post by: olaftab on April 24, 2022, 02:08:27 AM
So could have rather than “teams were wiping the floor with us”. I think we could have scored 9 at OT and 27 against Brentford at home.Ah NO not really. Other than the West Ham home match we more or less were reasonably competitive in most matchesThere is nothing to suggest that in his next 10 games Smith would have not picked up 17 points
Other than the fact that we were getting battered in every single game and teams were wiping the floor with us.
Arsenal could have scored 8 or 9. It was the worst half of football in years. Southampton wasn’t much better.
Post by: wince on April 24, 2022, 03:48:09 AM
Post by: Allan C on April 24, 2022, 09:35:39 AM
If Villa were just playing well, everyone - even those who were not convinced originally - would be right behind him. As it is there are genuine question marks currently. People are allowed to scrutinise the team and manager.I disagree with this. I support Villa, I don’t necessarily support Gerrard.
Post by: Beard82 on April 24, 2022, 09:46:18 AM
I worry by how few of the players Gerrard seems to rate / trust (he uses the same players over and again), and rarely uses subs in any meaningful way
Our current form is 27 points from 21. Dean has 24 from 21 - so we are tracking roughly the same for the last just over a season - i.e. lower middle half.
Hopefully a few key upgrades will help. I cant see a complete overhaul as I cant see there are many we can sale, and I cant see us spending more than 100m - 150m, so I would see 5 or so the max coming in.
However we cut it, I think this last 12 months has done some damange in the short and medium term to our plan. I think if we dont see us kick on next season it will be curtains for much of the current management structure.
All the clubs that have finished above us last season, have all got better or have plans in place - and newcastle have overtaken us as the "up and coming club"
Post by: N'ZMAV on April 24, 2022, 09:49:49 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 24, 2022, 09:51:24 AM
I thought we did ok yesterday - I thought he had a plan and it worked. To some degree it looks like he is learningThe damage to our short and medium term plan drive up the M6.
I worry by how few of the players Gerrard seems to rate / trust (he uses the same players over and again), and rarely uses subs in any meaningful way
Our current form is 27 points from 21. Dean has 24 from 21 - so we are tracking roughly the same for the last just over a season - i.e. lower middle half.
Hopefully a few key upgrades will help. I cant see a complete overhaul as I cant see there are many we can sale, and I cant see us spending more than 100m - 150m, so I would see 5 or so the max coming in.
However we cut it, I think this last 12 months has done some damange in the short and medium term to our plan. I think if we dont see us kick on next season it will be curtains for much of the current management structure.
All the clubs that have finished above us last season, have all got better or have plans in place - and newcastle have overtaken us as the "up and coming club"
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 24, 2022, 09:55:53 AM
Post by: Ads on April 24, 2022, 11:04:14 AM
We still created chances, more than Leicester and had more attacking opportunities/territory than Spurs. Issue is, 2 chances fell to Bailey and he skied one, didn't get to the other and what Watkins created for himself he wasted.
No real issue with drawing away at a side about our level. If you're not going to win, don't get beat, a mantra we've not had for a few years now.
Post by: Exeter 77 on April 24, 2022, 11:10:29 AM
Post by: olaftab on April 24, 2022, 11:14:42 AM
if we was in the middle of a normal patch of form, a few wins, draws and defeats then people would be saying that was a good solid point yesterday.As I said yesterday on post match thread a point there, generally, is very good and as we were not taking any risks post 4 defeats it is understandable why we didn't go for a win against an indifferent Leicester team.
Post by: mrfuse on April 24, 2022, 11:34:18 AM
Is Tim Iroegbemum a candidate for that quality holding player? Gerrard seems to rate him.
I still think we need to bring in a quality holding player but that doesn't mean Tim should miss out. We could play both at the same time in certain matches as long as they develop an understanding a bit like Rice and Phillips. Also rotation, injuries and cup games could give Tim plenty of game time.
To not strengthen that position we have been going on about for season after Season would be a massive mistake on the back of hoping one our youngsters is going to be consistent.
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on April 24, 2022, 12:21:07 PM
It’s difficult situation when trying to blood younger players but if you give them a chance I think generally the fans would be more patient with the team as a whole.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 24, 2022, 12:21:14 PM
Is Tim Iroegbemum a candidate for that quality holding player? Gerrard seems to rate him.
I still think we need to bring in a quality holding player but that doesn't mean Tim should miss out. We could play both at the same time in certain matches as long as they develop an understanding a bit like Rice and Phillips. Also rotation, injuries and cup games could give Tim plenty of game time.
To not strengthen that position we have been going on about for season after Season would be a massive mistake on the back of hoping one our youngsters is going to be consistent.
Cup games, do we still enter them?
Post by: Goldenballs on April 24, 2022, 01:15:50 PM
Is Tim Iroegbemum a candidate for that quality holding player? Gerrard seems to rate him.
I still think we need to bring in a quality holding player but that doesn't mean Tim should miss out. We could play both at the same time in certain matches as long as they develop an understanding a bit like Rice and Phillips. Also rotation, injuries and cup games could give Tim plenty of game time.
To not strengthen that position we have been going on about for season after Season would be a massive mistake on the back of hoping one our youngsters is going to be consistent.
Cup games, do we still enter them?
Technically yeah.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on April 24, 2022, 01:21:22 PM
If Tim isn’t going to come on in games that we’re comfortably leading in or start games when there’s not much to play for (relatively) or crying out for players in his preferred position I can’t see him starting next season when we’ll be playing for something.
It’s difficult situation when trying to blood younger players but if you give them a chance I think generally the fans would be more patient with the team as a whole.
The evidence is there. Yesterday he replaced Luiz and was an instant improvement so he starts next game for me on that basis. Likewise Bundia for PC.
Post by: mrfuse on April 24, 2022, 01:31:30 PM
Is Tim Iroegbemum a candidate for that quality holding player? Gerrard seems to rate him.
I still think we need to bring in a quality holding player but that doesn't mean Tim should miss out. We could play both at the same time in certain matches as long as they develop an understanding a bit like Rice and Phillips. Also rotation, injuries and cup games could give Tim plenty of game time.
To not strengthen that position we have been going on about for season after Season would be a massive mistake on the back of hoping one our youngsters is going to be consistent.
Cup games, do we still enter them?
Technically yeah.
I should have clarified just the 2 cup games that we will play.
Post by: OCD on April 24, 2022, 01:44:41 PM
If Tim isn’t going to come on in games that we’re comfortably leading in or start games when there’s not much to play for (relatively) or crying out for players in his preferred position I can’t see him starting next season when we’ll be playing for something.
It’s difficult situation when trying to blood younger players but if you give them a chance I think generally the fans would be more patient with the team as a whole.
The evidence is there. Yesterday he replaced Luiz and was an instant improvement so he starts next game for me on that basis. Likewise Bundia for PC.
He'll start with a very similar team again. Iroegbunam is still only 18, presumably he'll either be loaned out next season or he'll be making regular cameo appearances and continuing training with the first team until he starts looking like he's ready to start regularly.
Post by: eamonn on April 24, 2022, 06:47:29 PM
In a way, I hope we are hindered somewhat by FFP this summer. We're experts at buying expensive players who do shite for us and we can't offload for a decent fee.
Gerrard's got an army of coaches. Get them to harness the best out of the existing squad with a couple of top-drawer acquisitions i.e the fabled midfield-stopper and then get the fuck on with it and prove you can play as a good a game as you talk one.
Post by: Beard82 on April 24, 2022, 06:48:56 PM
Do you think he would come?
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 24, 2022, 06:53:11 PM
Poch going to be on the market soon.
Do you think he would come?
No.
Post by: Beard82 on April 24, 2022, 07:06:07 PM
Ok - forget I mentioned it ;)Poch going to be on the market soon.
Do you think he would come?
No.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 24, 2022, 07:28:15 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 24, 2022, 07:55:30 PM
Poch going to be on the market soon.
Do you think he would come?
Yes, why not? We are filthy rich and in the league that everyone wants to manage in.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 24, 2022, 08:08:46 PM
Poch going to be on the market soon.
Do you think he would come?
Yes, why not? We are filthy rich and in the league that everyone wants to manage in.
Nah, people complain Gerrard won the title in a 2 team league, Poch failed to win it in a 1 team league.
However if he brought his fellow Newell's Old Boys alumnus with him I'd consider it.
Post by: Beard82 on April 24, 2022, 08:48:28 PM
He didnt have the fabled pre-season though, so he did well to keep them up ;)Poch going to be on the market soon.
Do you think he would come?
Yes, why not? We are filthy rich and in the league that everyone wants to manage in.
Nah, people complain Gerrard won the title in a 2 team league, Poch failed to win it in a 1 team league.
However if he brought his fellow Newell's Old Boys alumnus with him I'd consider it.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 24, 2022, 08:53:28 PM
Since then they've finished 5th twice, won the FA cup and have a decent chance of making a european final.
So Rodgers despite having some character flaws is generally a pretty good manager these days.
I get the feeling he'll manage us at some point in next 2-3 years. All depends on timing though.
You also look at Leicester and James Justin was doing really well before his bad injury and he's currently showing faith in Dewsbury Hall who's started 20 straight games now so he has proven record giving young players a chance in teams which is a requirement for us with what we have coming through.
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 24, 2022, 08:56:47 PM
I mentioned when we potted DS we were in a similar position to what Leicester were in Feb 2019 when they sacked Claude Puel.
Since then they've finished 5th twice, won the FA cup and have a decent chance of making a european final.
So Rodgers despite having some character flaws is generally a pretty good manager these days.
I get the feeling he'll manage us at some point in next 2-3 years. All depends on timing though.
You also look at Leicester and James Justin was doing really well before his bad injury and he's currently showing faith in Dewsbury Hall who's started 20 straight games now so he has proven record giving young players a chance in teams which is a requirement for us with what we have coming through.
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
Sold.
Post by: Ads on April 24, 2022, 08:58:13 PM
I mentioned when we potted DS we were in a similar position to what Leicester were in Feb 2019 when they sacked Claude Puel.
Since then they've finished 5th twice, won the FA cup and have a decent chance of making a european final.
So Rodgers despite having some character flaws is generally a pretty good manager these days.
I get the feeling he'll manage us at some point in next 2-3 years. All depends on timing though.
You also look at Leicester and James Justin was doing really well before his bad injury and he's currently showing faith in Dewsbury Hall who's started 20 straight games now so he has proven record giving young players a chance in teams which is a requirement for us with what we have coming through.
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
FoxesTalk wants him out.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 24, 2022, 09:00:55 PM
I mentioned when we potted DS we were in a similar position to what Leicester were in Feb 2019 when they sacked Claude Puel.
Since then they've finished 5th twice, won the FA cup and have a decent chance of making a european final.
So Rodgers despite having some character flaws is generally a pretty good manager these days.
I get the feeling he'll manage us at some point in next 2-3 years. All depends on timing though.
You also look at Leicester and James Justin was doing really well before his bad injury and he's currently showing faith in Dewsbury Hall who's started 20 straight games now so he has proven record giving young players a chance in teams which is a requirement for us with what we have coming through.
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
If and when Gerrard goes and i hope its later as it should mean he’s been successful with us, i think Rogers is a much more realistic target that Poch and other managers plying their trade at current champions league big hitters.
As you say it all depends on timing, but good shout.
Post by: Beard82 on April 24, 2022, 09:03:44 PM
I would take Rogers all day longI mentioned when we potted DS we were in a similar position to what Leicester were in Feb 2019 when they sacked Claude Puel.
Since then they've finished 5th twice, won the FA cup and have a decent chance of making a european final.
So Rodgers despite having some character flaws is generally a pretty good manager these days.
I get the feeling he'll manage us at some point in next 2-3 years. All depends on timing though.
You also look at Leicester and James Justin was doing really well before his bad injury and he's currently showing faith in Dewsbury Hall who's started 20 straight games now so he has proven record giving young players a chance in teams which is a requirement for us with what we have coming through.
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
If and when Gerrard goes and i hope its later as it should mean he’s been successful with us, i think Rogers is a much more realistic target that Poch and other managers plying their trade at current champions league big hitters.
As you say it all depends on timing, but good shout.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 24, 2022, 09:04:23 PM
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
Not keen on his unctuous manner but that'd be a good shout if Gerrard moves on 3 or 4 seasons from now.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 24, 2022, 09:05:52 PM
I mentioned when we potted DS we were in a similar position to what Leicester were in Feb 2019 when they sacked Claude Puel.
Since then they've finished 5th twice, won the FA cup and have a decent chance of making a european final.
So Rodgers despite having some character flaws is generally a pretty good manager these days.
I get the feeling he'll manage us at some point in next 2-3 years. All depends on timing though.
You also look at Leicester and James Justin was doing really well before his bad injury and he's currently showing faith in Dewsbury Hall who's started 20 straight games now so he has proven record giving young players a chance in teams which is a requirement for us with what we have coming through.
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
FoxesTalk wants him out.
Good. He's taken them as far as he can. It happens just like with DS here, Dyche at Burnley and Poch at Spurs.
Dosen't mean that negates immediate qualities he had that would get us on brink of european qualification fairly quickly. Certainly more than Gerrard anyway at this point in time.
Post by: Behind Bluenose Lines on April 24, 2022, 09:15:40 PM
He could end up back at Spurs. Apparently PSG are after Conte.Poch going to be on the market soon.
Do you think he would come?
No.
Post by: eamonn on April 24, 2022, 09:20:30 PM
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
Not keen on his unctuous manner but that'd be a good shout if Gerrard moves on 3 or 4 seasons from now.
Todd?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 24, 2022, 09:26:13 PM
I think he'll be our next manager and would be a fantastic fit for what we have in the squad, could be much sooner than we all think aswell if results don't improve and there's a feeling he's taken Leicester as far as he can now.
Not keen on his unctuous manner but that'd be a good shout if Gerrard moves on 3 or 4 seasons from now.
Todd?
As long as he brings Dougal McGuire not Harry.
Post by: Ads on April 24, 2022, 09:47:28 PM
He was backed with Johnson, Taylor, Wright and Charles when he came in, wanted to play a different system, yet we had to go to Carrow Road on the last day to survive. The squad was more aging but it was definitely better than finishing 1 spot above the relegation zone.
We then buy a new spine in Southgate, Draper and Savo. Give a younger lad called Dwight Yorke a starring role and finish 4th, win a trophy and get to the semi final of the FA Cup.
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 24, 2022, 09:50:50 PM
I wonder if the Internet was as ubiquitous in 1995 as it is now, how many would be wanting Little out now?
He was backed with Johnson, Taylor, Wright and Charles when he came in, wanted to play a different system, yet we had to go to Carrow Road on the last day to survive. The squad was mroe aging but it was definitely better than finishing 1 spot above the relegation zone.
We then buy a new spine in Southgate, Draper and Savo. Give a younger lad called Dwight Yorke a starring role and finish 4th, win a trophy and get to the semi final of the FA Cup.
He’d probably be ok because of his association with Villa.
Post by: olaftab on April 24, 2022, 11:23:50 PM
Nah, people complain Gerrard won the title in a 2 team league, Poch failed to win it in a 1 team league.Yes but Poch manages in a slightly higher standard, in a country that is current World Cup holder whereas our Stevie did it in….hang on…..Scotland😀
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 24, 2022, 11:31:32 PM
Nah, people complain Gerrard won the title in a 2 team league, Poch failed to win it in a 1 team league.Yes but Poch manages in a slightly higher standard, in a country that is current World Cup holder whereas our Steven did it in….hang on…..Scotland😀
About the same I'd say, they've both had one winner of the European Cup/CL and you seem to forget Scotland won the World Cup in 1967. ;)
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 24, 2022, 11:34:23 PM
Post by: olaftab on April 25, 2022, 04:58:29 AM
of Scotland Jock Stein had not been on my radar.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 25, 2022, 05:44:57 AM
The Dutch league is not much better than The Scottish yet Manure have taken Ten Haag.
The jury is still out but we have rolled the dice and we are going to have to see where it lands.
My concern is that we had 2 chances with Grealish to really threaten the top of the PL
1. To build a team around his talent to challenge.
2.To use the Grealish money to build a team to challenge.
He blew the 1st and Purslow Lang Smith blew the second.
So my expectations of Gerrard are maybe not as high as some because that squad has mid table written all over it.
Post by: LeonW on April 25, 2022, 06:06:44 AM
I wonder if the Internet was as ubiquitous in 1995 as it is now, how many would be wanting Little out now?
He was backed with Johnson, Taylor, Wright and Charles when he came in, wanted to play a different system, yet we had to go to Carrow Road on the last day to survive. The squad was more aging but it was definitely better than finishing 1 spot above the relegation zone.
We then buy a new spine in Southgate, Draper and Savo. Give a younger lad called Dwight Yorke a starring role and finish 4th, win a trophy and get to the semi final of the FA Cup.
I think this is quite an interesting point. Yes, Little was/is a Villa man through and through (which would buy goodwill) and yes he had more experience as a manager but it was in the lower leagues. Whatever people may think about the Scottish league, there’s no doubt that managing either of the two old firm clubs is operating in a major pressure cooker. And it was something SG had success in as his first job. I personally feel that some people question how SG was recruited and it feeds in to how they think about his performance as manager but they’re two separate issues.
Post by: Beard82 on April 25, 2022, 08:21:43 AM
I think its a different world since then - the gap between the haves, and have nots are so much larger. He was able to get us to finish 4th the next season - and there is no way thats realistically possible now even if you had Pep as your managerI wonder if the Internet was as ubiquitous in 1995 as it is now, how many would be wanting Little out now?
He was backed with Johnson, Taylor, Wright and Charles when he came in, wanted to play a different system, yet we had to go to Carrow Road on the last day to survive. The squad was more aging but it was definitely better than finishing 1 spot above the relegation zone.
We then
buy a new spine in Southgate, Draper and Savo. Give a younger lad called Dwight Yorke a starring role and finish 4th, win a trophy and get to the semi final of the FA Cup.
I think this is quite an interesting point. Yes, Little was/is a Villa man through and through (which would buy goodwill) and yes he had more experience as a manager but it was in the lower leagues. Whatever people may think about the Scottish league, there’s no doubt that managing either of the two old firm clubs is operating in a major pressure cooker. And it was something SG had success in as his first job. I personally feel that some people question how SG was recruited and it feeds in to how they think about his performance as manager but they’re two separate issues.
Also - he inherited an aging squad, rather than one that had improved year on year
There is also a key bit with SG that seems to be missed - a lot of the negativity is because Smith was sacked in the name of progress - and we havent seen enough of that yet. Bottom half was deemed unacceptable - but here we are 20 games later in pretty much the same spot, even with 3 new signings
If our stated target was to make sure stay in the league, and anything else is a bonus then I think there would be less fuss
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 25, 2022, 09:16:30 AM
Apologies as that triumph for the entire nation in 1967 by the Flower
of Scotland Jock Stein had not been on my radar.
Totally understandable, you'd have been too young to remember it anyway.
Post by: Risso on April 25, 2022, 10:05:29 AM
If our stated target was to make sure stay in the league, and anything else is a bonus then I think there would be less fuss
I won't go through the numbers again for fear of boring Drummond ( ;) ), but after the start we had under Smith, the highest realistic finishing position was 9th. Anything above that would just have required a points per game ratio that I don't think is feasible given the players we have. Given where we are, I think in my view the following finishing positions should be viewed as follows:
9th - an excellent position, as good as could have been hoped for, look forward to the summer and next season with confidence
10th - very good, first top half finish in years, an improvement
11th - about par, same position as last year, slightly underwhelming but given the start still acceptable
12th - underwhelming and disappointing, lots to do in the summer
13th - getting into the very disappointing arena now
14th - oh well, at least we finished higher than Leeds
15th - we didn't finish higher than Leeds? Fucking hell.
16th - behind Burnley as well? Gerrard o...
17th - ...ut!
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 25, 2022, 10:07:47 AM
Post by: Beard82 on April 25, 2022, 10:24:35 AM
If our stated target was to make sure stay in the league, and anything else is a bonus then I think there would be less fuss
I won't go through the numbers again for fear of boring Drummond ( ;) ), but after the start we had under Smith, the highest realistic finishing position was 9th. Anything above that would just have required a points per game ratio that I don't think is feasible given the players we have. Given where we are, I think in my view the following finishing positions should be viewed as follows:
9th - an excellent position, as good as could have been hoped for, look forward to the summer and next season with confidence
10th - very good, first top half finish in years, an improvement
11th - about par, same position as last year, slightly underwhelming but given the start still acceptable
12th - underwhelming and disappointing, lots to do in the summer
13th - getting into the very disappointing arena now
14th - oh well, at least we finished higher than Leeds
15th - we didn't finish higher than Leeds? Fucking hell.
16th - behind Burnley as well? Gerrard o...
17th - ...ut!
I think thats the point I am making? I think I said when he came in that I would be realitively comfortable with 11-12th (11th would be very much whelmed)
If we finish there after a strong end to the season I think he will have done ok.
But as things stand (and yes I know the seasons not finished ;) ) - it is in the Fucking Hell position which isnt progress we are talking about. Hopefully well get at least 9 points - which will probably see us anwhere between 11 - 14
Post by: cdward on April 25, 2022, 10:25:03 AM
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2021/november/07/club-statement-dean-smith/
"...this year we have not seen the continuous improvement in results, performances and league position which we have all been looking for".
Hmm, exactly the same could be said now.
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 25, 2022, 10:46:11 AM
Looking back at when Smith was sacked.
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2021/november/07/club-statement-dean-smith/
"...this year we have not seen the continuous improvement in results, performances and league position which we have all been looking for".
Hmm, exactly the same could be said now.
purslow even went on to say...
"For this reason we have decided to make a change now to allow time for a new head coach to make an impact."
I know he loves the sound of his own voice, but there are times when he really should STFU!
Post by: Risso on April 25, 2022, 10:57:27 AM
Looking back at when Smith was sacked.
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2021/november/07/club-statement-dean-smith/
"...this year we have not seen the continuous improvement in results, performances and league position which we have all been looking for".
Hmm, exactly the same could be said now.
purslow even went on to say...
"For this reason we have decided to make a change now to allow time for a new head coach to make an impact."
I know he loves the sound of his own voice, but there are times when he really should STFU!
That's what every chairman says after every managerial change.
Post by: Drummond on April 25, 2022, 11:06:38 AM
If our stated target was to make sure stay in the league, and anything else is a bonus then I think there would be less fuss
I won't go through the numbers again for fear of boring Drummond ( ;) ), but after the start we had under Smith, the highest realistic finishing position was 9th. Anything above that would just have required a points per game ratio that I don't think is feasible given the players we have. Given where we are, I think in my view the following finishing positions should be viewed as follows:
9th - an excellent position, as good as could have been hoped for, look forward to the summer and next season with confidence
10th - very good, first top half finish in years, an improvement
11th - about par, same position as last year, slightly underwhelming but given the start still acceptable
12th - underwhelming and disappointing, lots to do in the summer
13th - getting into the very disappointing arena now
14th - oh well, at least we finished higher than Leeds
15th - we didn't finish higher than Leeds? Fucking hell.
16th - behind Burnley as well? Gerrard o...
17th - ...ut!
You go for it. I'm interested.
Given your descriptions above though, I'm surprised you're as happy and calm as you appear.... :-)
Post by: paul_e on April 25, 2022, 11:24:52 AM
If our stated target was to make sure stay in the league, and anything else is a bonus then I think there would be less fuss
I won't go through the numbers again for fear of boring Drummond ( ;) ), but after the start we had under Smith, the highest realistic finishing position was 9th. Anything above that would just have required a points per game ratio that I don't think is feasible given the players we have. Given where we are, I think in my view the following finishing positions should be viewed as follows:
9th - an excellent position, as good as could have been hoped for, look forward to the summer and next season with confidence
10th - very good, first top half finish in years, an improvement
11th - about par, same position as last year, slightly underwhelming but given the start still acceptable
12th - underwhelming and disappointing, lots to do in the summer
13th - getting into the very disappointing arena now
14th - oh well, at least we finished higher than Leeds
15th - we didn't finish higher than Leeds? Fucking hell.
16th - behind Burnley as well? Gerrard o...
17th - ...ut!
You go for it. I'm interested.
Given your descriptions above though, I'm surprised you're as happy and calm as you appear.... :-)
To be fair we're 4 points off a 'par' finish from that list and have games in hand over most of the teams we'd need to overtake, with some decent games to come.
Post by: eamonn on April 25, 2022, 12:33:49 PM
You could argue that the latter was a pointer towards a team closer to the bottom than the top. But yeah...it's funny how a points target (like the fabled 40, to be sure of non-relegation) is sometimes well off what's required position-wise.
Post by: AV82EC on April 25, 2022, 04:47:33 PM
Post by: olaftab on April 25, 2022, 07:23:29 PM
<<like>> :)Apologies as that triumph for the entire nation in 1967 by the Flower
of Scotland Jock Stein had not been on my radar.
Totally understandable, you'd have been too young to remember it anyway.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2022, 10:11:24 AM
Looking back at when Smith was sacked.It could and despite some bright moments Gerrard's tenure has been pretty dissapointing so far, particulalry bearing in mind the money spent on Coutinho and Digne. But this isn't his team, it's mostly the team Smith assembled at huge cost (he may not have hand picked all the players but ultimately it's his squad). The time to judge Gerrard is once he has had time to bring in his own players and get his philiosphy over to the team in the close season. The downside of that is we will have blown another £100m + by then on a manager I'm not yet convinced about. But that's the path we're on now so I guess we'll have to see how it pans out.
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2021/november/07/club-statement-dean-smith/
"...this year we have not seen the continuous improvement in results, performances and league position which we have all been looking for".
Hmm, exactly the same could be said now.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on April 26, 2022, 10:20:50 AM
Post by: Drummond on April 26, 2022, 10:29:45 AM
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 26, 2022, 10:38:06 AM
Looking back at when Smith was sacked.It could and despite some bright moments Gerrard's tenure has been pretty dissapointing so far, particulalry bearing in mind the money spent on Coutinho and Digne. But this isn't his team, it's mostly the team Smith assembled at huge cost (he may not have hand picked all the players but ultimately it's his squad). The time to judge Gerrard is once he has had time to bring in his own players and get his philiosphy over to the team in the close season. The downside of that is we will have blown another £100m + by then on a manager I'm not yet convinced about. But that's the path we're on now so I guess we'll have to see how it pans out.
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2021/november/07/club-statement-dean-smith/
"...this year we have not seen the continuous improvement in results, performances and league position which we have all been looking for".
Hmm, exactly the same could be said now.
Agree with most of that, but you have highlighted the dilemma. I'm not sure we do have to see how it pans out, there has to be a line and i think if he picks up say only 3 more points or less this season he will, for me anyway, have shown over the course of his time with us that he's not the man to take us forward and not to be trusted with spending the clubs money re-building so i would make a change. On the other hand, if we do have a decent finish then we should do the decent thing and give him the chance. It really is a fine line at the moment, and i think a lot of that is because he was so unproven when we appointed him.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2022, 10:54:34 AM
Maybe the Coutinho project took precedence because of the thinking of where a signing like that may have been able to catipult us, but not going the extra mile to get a DM in Jan has hurt our season badly in my opinion. And there's a strong chance we're going to be much less attractive to payers in the summer than we would have been in Jan when there was still huge uncertainty over Newcastle's future and we were basking in the flush of a high profile manager and world class player signing.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 26, 2022, 11:05:43 AM
Post by: curiousorange on April 26, 2022, 11:09:52 AM
I think that's my major beef with Gerrard - I can't play the way I want with these players, so I won't bother then.
Post by: sid1964 on April 26, 2022, 11:20:11 AM
If we are to improve in the summer we need at least 4 top class players who will go straight into the side, otherwise I can only see us finishing mid table or below again next season.
Post by: ROBBO on April 26, 2022, 11:31:15 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2022, 11:33:33 AM
When you have a team made up mainly of good Championship players and average Premier league players, the highest we can reasonably expect to finish is 11thI don't by this. Compare our squad to Newcastle, Brighton, Palace, Southampton, Wolves, Brenford and it compares pretty favourably - even Leicester don't look much stronger man for man. Chances are we're going to finish below most, if not all of them.
If we are to improve in the summer we need at least 4 top class players who will go straight into the side, otherwise I can only see us finishing mid table or below again next season.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 26, 2022, 11:35:06 AM
That's the truth of it,we have all over estimated the quality of the squad. I look at how many of our players would make it into any of the top six sides, I can think of one, and he's our future.
Our defensive players would have a shout given we've conceded 5 fewer goals than Man. United and only two more than West Ham so despite no DM worthy of the name perhaps as a unit they're not as bad as made out.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 26, 2022, 11:39:26 AM
However we finish, our points total will likely be a fair bit down on last season. Is that another stick to beat the team with or, ultimately, because each season's league table is relative to all the teams in that given year only; should it matter whether 55 points gets you 11th (like us last season - only 5 points less than our first 6th-placed position under MON when we scored 71 league goals in 07/08!), or if 9th place only requires 48 points (us in 2010/11, Houllier/Gary Mac's first spell)?
You could argue that the latter was a pointer towards a team closer to the bottom than the top. But yeah...it's funny how a points target (like the fabled 40, to be sure of non-relegation) is sometimes well off what's required position-wise.
We were massively unlucky to finish as low as we did last season.
Look at the table now...Man. United with 54 points and 4 games left and given they've basically given up they could easily finish 6th with barely more points than we did last season.
West Ham on 52 points and they still have to play Arsenal at home with no CBs and Man. City at home.
Don't think Wolves will even reach 55 points given they've still got Chelsea, Man. City and Liverpool all to play in their last five.
Two of those will be finishing in european places this season.
Last season pretty much inflated everyone's points totals with BCD which meant there was a higher number of away wins than average (although pretty sure we've won a similar amount away to last season so perhaps not much difference for us).
My disappointment is after winning at Leeds I wanted a top 10 finish and 50 points so we're going to finish well short of that, 45 points looks optimistic at this point.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 26, 2022, 11:42:33 AM
If it's all about changing half the team, then that would suggest our model is fucked.
Yeah it shouldn't be.
My main issue is what happens post Gerrard. I guess the board and certainly Purslow won't be thinking that but more managers out there play Dean Smith's style than Gerrard's formation these days.
So we spent all this money in the summer, we have a very similar season next year not really challenging for europe and then what happens? Gerrard leaves and we have to spend money going back to 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 (although surely some of the players signed this summer could play effectively in that formation).
Feels like we're going to muddle through the next 12 months unnecessarily.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2022, 11:43:10 AM
That's the truth of it,we have all over estimated the quality of the squad. I look at how many of our players would make it into any of the top six sides, I can think of one, and he's our future.Coutinho, obviously. Martinez is world class. I wouldn't be surprised to see Watkins at Arsenal. Digne is a French international who would improve a lot of teams when fit. I could see Konsa and Buendia at Arsenal or West Ham. Lots of clubs seem to like McGinn - he'd improve Man Utd for a start. We haven't seem the best of Bailey yet but he wouldn't be the first Bundesliga player who took a while to settle in. You've mentioned Ramsey.
Man for man this isn't the piss poor squad you're making it out to be.
Now, name the players you would want from Newcastle, Brighton, Palace, Southampton, Wolves, Brenford and Leicester, there's generally one ot two at most.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 26, 2022, 11:48:17 AM
Can't say I'd want any of their attackers with Jimenez looking done now after his bad injury but again at the back they generally know how to minimize their limitations e.g. Coady would really struggle in a back 4 and can grind results out.
There's no way we should be 12 points off them anyway so simply have to do better next season in challenging them.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2022, 11:54:01 AM
Wolves have better midfielders than we do. Their form and creativity has completely nosedived since Ruben Neves got injured, he'd walk into our team no problem. Moutinho aswell even in his mid 30s.Exactly. There's one or two players we would want from their squad. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd like 5 or 6 of ours.
Can't say I'd want any of their attackers with Jimenez looking done now after his bad injury but again at the back they generally know how to minimize their limitations e.g. Coady would really struggle in a back 4 and can grind results out.
There's no way we should be 12 points off them anyway so simply have to do better next season in challenging them.
Post by: Rigadon on April 26, 2022, 12:05:36 PM
I think Gerrard saw the Jack-shaped hole straight away and tried to replicate that level of creativity by bringing Coutihno in - maybe he prioritised that over spending mega bucks in Jan on the fabled center midfield destroyer/s. It might end up that we finish about the same as last year, which will justify this approach to a degree.
For me, unless we seriously get dragged into the relegation fight by failing to beat Norwich or Chrystal Palace and losing to Burnley twice, Gerrard gets the summer to build a team in his image and the first 10 games of the new season to prove is is the person to take us back into Europe (the CL).
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 26, 2022, 12:18:36 PM
That said, if we're going to have a chance of getting into Europe next season, 4 top class players including Coutinho is needed. A DM, a centre back leaving Konsa and Mings to fight it out to partner and a top class CF leaving Watkins and Ings to fight it out to partner. Then ideally, a good covering GK and another good midfielder.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2022, 12:18:53 PM
I think there is evidence to suggest that Smith overachieved with the squad last year because Grealish was THAT good and THAT much of a positive impact on the other players. When Grealish wasn't fit and then after he left our form was nowhere near as good under Dean. We didn't sell him for £100m because he was average, or even a bit better than that - he was sensational for us. The club bought in the 3 players to fill a gap but they haven't, it's as simple as that, they have failed to justify their places (that's being harsh on Buendia who has, in flashes, done the business).Kind of agree. But if we're letting Gerrard spend £100m + then we need to give him more than 10 games to get it right.
I think Gerrard saw the Jack-shaped hole straight away and tried to replicate that level of creativity by bringing Coutihno in - maybe he prioritised that over spending mega bucks in Jan on the fabled center midfield destroyer/s. It might end up that we finish about the same as last year, which will justify this approach to a degree.
For me, unless we seriously get dragged into the relegation fight by failing to beat Norwich or Chrystal Palace and losing to Burnley twice, Gerrard gets the summer to build a team in his image and the first 10 games of the new season to prove is is the person to take us back into Europe (the CL).
Post by: murgsy on April 26, 2022, 12:42:29 PM
When you have a team made up mainly of good Championship players and average Premier league players, the highest we can reasonably expect to finish is 11thI don't by this. Compare our squad to Newcastle, Brighton, Palace, Southampton, Wolves, Brenford and it compares pretty favourably - even Leicester don't look much stronger man for man. Chances are we're going to finish below most, if not all of them.
If we are to improve in the summer we need at least 4 top class players who will go straight into the side, otherwise I can only see us finishing mid table or below again next season.
Would agree with the squad strength of most of the teams mentioned. Leicester is stronger - I would have at least 4-5 players of theirs over ours. Wolves are not better player for player but far more coherent as a unit.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 26, 2022, 12:51:23 PM
Post by: Beard82 on April 26, 2022, 12:56:43 PM
I think he would have to be doing really badly to be sacked by the world cup (i.e. we're looking like we might be in a relegation battle).
I guess a lot will depend on how comfortable the owners are with whats happening - but I think he will get the whole of next season at least
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 26, 2022, 12:57:46 PM
Point is it can take time for things to bed in. I don’t know whether Gerrard will succeed, but he needs some time to make a fair assessment either way.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2022, 01:03:24 PM
Post by: paul_e on April 26, 2022, 01:15:27 PM
The over riding positive impact that Grealish had on the team was that we held onto the ball better with him in the team, and specifically at the right end of the pitch. He held onto it, drew players in, occupied opponents, won free kicks and set pieces and he rarely gave a stray pass so didn't lose possession. Compare to when he wasn't in the team or to this season and you see that the ball bounces back to the opposition far more and then of course with a weak center it becomes even easier to plough through us and put more pressure on the defence. In some ways i think Coutinho is better than Grealish. He's quicker and with the right players around him i'd expect him to have more assists and goals but he doesn't retain possession as well as Grealish did. That's why it's even more important now to get that midfield solid so that we can stop the opposition and get back to keeping the ball more which should then give Coutinho the platform to do his thing. Add a top striker as well and hopefully we'll see less of the wasted chances like we saw against Tottenham for example.
I agree with this, the problem is that none of our attackers hold the ball up well so to create things we have to commit men forward but that leaves us short on the counter-attack (which is where a huge amount of the goals we concede come from). We can solve that issue with 2 signings, a proper DM to cover when we do commit forward and a striker who holds on to the ball better and brings people into play. One of the reasons I'm up for keeping Davis next season is that despite his scoring record for us being awful he would give us that focal point that we've missed. Ideally we'll be looking to sign someone who can do that but also get 10-15 goals a season for us.
After we fix those 2 issues what we're left needing to add is incremental improvements to the quality, and more importantly attitude, of the squad.
Post by: paul_e on April 26, 2022, 01:20:42 PM
Yeah, Leicester are stronger fair point. I guess Ndidi, Barnes, Maddison, Tielemans and maybe Dewsbury Hall as a prospect. Vardy is obviously great but age is kicking in now. They've got some other decent players, but not necessarily ones I'd swap for our players in those positions.
Replace Dewsbury-Hall (who isn't anything like as good a prospect as Ramsey) with Fofana and I'd go with that, I like Thomas as well but only so Young isn't our cover at left back.
Post by: brian green on April 26, 2022, 01:23:37 PM
Post by: Baldy on April 26, 2022, 01:24:07 PM
Stevie G knows what qualities a player needs to be a winner and to build a proper team spirit. I hate fecking Liverpool but their team spirit is amazing. They would die for each other.
Ability is easy to see (You Tube). But Stevie G is the man to see a players ambition, hunger, desire, heart, loyalty, commitment etc which is equally important.
For too long, Villa Park has been the 'promise land' for many a waster who couldn't give a shit about the Villa but wanted the riches the Premier League provides.
Stevie G is the man to weed 'em out and start building a proper team spirit at Villa Park.
Post by: Mister E on April 26, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
The over riding positive impact that Grealish had on the team was that we held onto the ball better with him in the team, and specifically at the right end of the pitch. He held onto it, drew players in, occupied opponents, won free kicks and set pieces and he rarely gave a stray pass so didn't lose possession. Compare to when he wasn't in the team or to this season and you see that the ball bounces back to the opposition far more and then of course with a weak center it becomes even easier to plough through us and put more pressure on the defence. In some ways i think Coutinho is better than Grealish. He's quicker and with the right players around him i'd expect him to have more assists and goals but he doesn't retain possession as well as Grealish did. That's why it's even more important now to get that midfield solid so that we can stop the opposition and get back to keeping the ball more which should then give Coutinho the platform to do his thing. Add a top striker as well and hopefully we'll see less of the wasted chances like we saw against Tottenham for example.I'd agree with most of this but add that - with Phil in the team - the striker has to be far better at holding up the ball and playing in the players around him: we lose lots of possession because Watkins / Ings are bullied by the opponent CB and unable to get the damn ball under control.
Post by: Dave P on April 26, 2022, 01:27:00 PM
I believe Gerrard is a good head coach who can attract good talent and want's to make a success here. He is also backed up by a very good coaching set up.
Yes, results are disappointing at the moment and we do need to reassess around Christmas to see if it is working, but I believe it will.
Post by: Mister E on April 26, 2022, 01:28:55 PM
Re an earlier post about Gerrard's preferred narrowness / compactness in MF (vs 2 wide players), the ideal surely has to be a version of what Klopp is currently doing: playing players up front with both winger-capabilities and the capacity to get compact when not in possession (perm 2 or 3 from Salah, Mane, Jota and Diaz). This requires pace, dribbling skills, stamina, quick thinking and the strength to win tackles / make interceptions. Moyes has sort of got this with Bowen, Fornals, Benrahma and - to a lesser extent - Lanzini.
Ironically, AEG and Trez are probably closest to this model from our current player-list; albeit not good enough.
Bailey and Traore probably aren't close enough to this approach.
Ramsey could be a version of this, as could Archer and Buendia. McGinn and Sanson are probably not quick enough.
All of which relies on a decent midfield, pairing defensive and creative duties (think Soucek and Rice).
Sorry to bring RedScouse back into the conversation relating to Gerrard - not pleasant.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on April 26, 2022, 01:35:17 PM
From what I’d seen of Ings and particularly Watkins before this season though I would have expected them to be better at it. Watkins did well as a focal point last season. One way or the other this has to be an area we address anyway.
Post by: Beard82 on April 26, 2022, 01:40:44 PM
Looks like non villa people have started to notice
Post by: Hookeysmith on April 26, 2022, 01:45:37 PM
I agree that SG has made some mistakes but calls for his head are ridiculously premature - just hope the recruitment drive and player turnover is not too much (coming in at least) as always they will need time to bed in.
I also hope we do our business early which has been our way for a while
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on April 26, 2022, 02:23:28 PM
I think there is evidence to suggest that Smith overachieved with the squad last year because Grealish was THAT good and THAT much of a positive impact on the other players. When Grealish wasn't fit and then after he left our form was nowhere near as good under Dean. We didn't sell him for £100m because he was average, or even a bit better than that - he was sensational for us. The club bought in the 3 players to fill a gap but they haven't, it's as simple as that, they have failed to justify their places (that's being harsh on Buendia who has, in flashes, done the business).Kind of agree. But if we're letting Gerrard spend £100m + then we need to give him more than 10 games to get it right.
I think Gerrard saw the Jack-shaped hole straight away and tried to replicate that level of creativity by bringing Coutihno in - maybe he prioritised that over spending mega bucks in Jan on the fabled center midfield destroyer/s. It might end up that we finish about the same as last year, which will justify this approach to a degree.
For me, unless we seriously get dragged into the relegation fight by failing to beat Norwich or Chrystal Palace and losing to Burnley twice, Gerrard gets the summer to build a team in his image and the first 10 games of the new season to prove is is the person to take us back into Europe (the CL).
Replace Gerrard's name with Smith and the same could be said (especially post grealish) notwithstanding how the season has turned out so far.
Post by: Mister E on April 26, 2022, 02:33:03 PM
https://www.football365.com/news/opinion-aston-villa-steven-gerrard-wrong-trajectory-togetherHe's been on here, reading the analyses of people rather closer to the action and more emotionally invested! perhaps.
Looks like non villa people have started to notice
Post by: mrfuse on April 26, 2022, 03:28:38 PM
Am I the only one who is genuinely excited for next season? We don't have to change half the team at all and a proper defensive midfielder would protect Mings / Konsa as well as freeing the likes of McGinn, Buendia, Ramsey and (hopefully) Coutinho.
I believe Gerrard is a good head coach who can attract good talent and want's to make a success here. He is also backed up by a very good coaching set up.
Yes, results are disappointing at the moment and we do need to reassess around Christmas to see if it is working, but I believe it will.
Yes a defensive midfielder will be a big help but if Gerrard wants to play a certain way bigger changes need to be made.
Defensively something needs to change to be able to play out from the back as neither Konsa or Mings are comfortable with the ball at their feet.
I'm a big fan of Watkins but I don't think he fits the style Gerrard wants to play. Ings I don't rate at all and again Gerrard doesn't seem to want to fit him in his system. Then we've got an abundance of wingers that don't fit the system and are basically rubbish.
Post by: Duncan Shaw on April 26, 2022, 03:29:30 PM
Am I the only one who is genuinely excited for next season? We don't have to change half the team at all and a proper defensive midfielder would protect Mings / Konsa as well as freeing the likes of McGinn, Buendia, Ramsey and (hopefully) Coutinho.
I believe Gerrard is a good head coach who can attract good talent and want's to make a success here. He is also backed up by a very good coaching set up.
Yes, results are disappointing at the moment and we do need to reassess around Christmas to see if it is working, but I believe it will.
I am, or would be if your first sentence proves correct. My nagging fear is that SG decides he needs to rip it all up and get rid of most of them and get his own players in, then we will be in another rebuild phase.
Post by: Drummond on April 26, 2022, 04:00:42 PM
Play well, score some goals (no goals from open play in over 360 minutes of football) and do ok til the end of the season and I may change my view.
With the squad we have we should be higher than we are. I was prepared to give leeway earlier in the season when you know who did you know what, and we had a pile of injured unfit players. But now, well we should be doing better.
My team for the weekend would be.....
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
Post by: paul_e on April 26, 2022, 05:05:26 PM
I'll be excited again at the beginning of August, but that's just because it'll be the season starting again. Same as on fixture release day. Right now, well there's no evidence to get me excited.
Play well, score some goals (no goals from open play in over 360 minutes of football) and do ok til the end of the season and I may change my view.
With the squad we have we should be higher than we are. I was prepared to give leeway earlier in the season when you know who did you know what, and we had a pile of injured unfit players. But now, well we should be doing better.
My team for the weekend would be.....
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I know people don't like stats like xG on here but from the last 4 games if you use the stats here - https://understat.com/team/Aston_Villa/2021 - it suggests that, on average, we should've scored 3.5 goals from the chances we've created in the last 4 games. That 'feels' correct to me because we've missed some chances I'd have expected us to take.
Post by: Clampy on April 26, 2022, 05:22:21 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 26, 2022, 05:23:25 PM
I don't find all that expected goals malarkey very important.
That's why you're not a football manager.
Post by: Drummond on April 26, 2022, 05:25:04 PM
I'll be excited again at the beginning of August, but that's just because it'll be the season starting again. Same as on fixture release day. Right now, well there's no evidence to get me excited.
Play well, score some goals (no goals from open play in over 360 minutes of football) and do ok til the end of the season and I may change my view.
With the squad we have we should be higher than we are. I was prepared to give leeway earlier in the season when you know who did you know what, and we had a pile of injured unfit players. But now, well we should be doing better.
My team for the weekend would be.....
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I know people don't like stats like xG on here but from the last 4 games if you use the stats here - https://understat.com/team/Aston_Villa/2021 - it suggests that, on average, we should've scored 3.5 goals from the chances we've created in the last 4 games. That 'feels' correct to me because we've missed some chances I'd have expected us to take.
Oh I know what you mean, but the point is we haven't scored them.
Coutinho's free-kick chip that Ings fluffed would have been a goal of the month contender, etc. The thing is, the chances aren't going in and we're leaking at the other end.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 26, 2022, 05:30:06 PM
I worry about another year where our fantastic owners spend a lorryful of cash for another deflating season.
With Wes involved it's more likely to be truckload of cash.
Post by: gpbarr on April 26, 2022, 05:33:22 PM
Post by: mrfuse on April 26, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
I'll be excited again at the beginning of August, but that's just because it'll be the season starting again. Same as on fixture release day. Right now, well there's no evidence to get me excited.
Play well, score some goals (no goals from open play in over 360 minutes of football) and do ok til the end of the season and I may change my view.
With the squad we have we should be higher than we are. I was prepared to give leeway earlier in the season when you know who did you know what, and we had a pile of injured unfit players. But now, well we should be doing better.
My team for the weekend would be.....
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I thought you wanted to score some goals? Ings cant currently connect with a football never mind put one a massive net he's a few feet away from.
Post by: Ads on April 26, 2022, 08:02:19 PM
I'd have Coutinho in that 10 slot and agree Buendia in the midfield behind as he does a lot off the ball too.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 26, 2022, 08:52:36 PM
Ings looks well short at the moment with his movement and finishing. Confidence appears shot. Watkins was excellent off the ball against Leicester and will start the weekend.
I'd have Coutinho in that 10 slot and agree Buendia in the midfield behind as he does a lot off the ball too.
I wasn't there, so happily acknowledge your greater insight, but on my illegal stream Watkins looked like the worst player on the pitch by several miles. Apart from Bailey.
Post by: Ads on April 26, 2022, 09:32:44 PM
Post by: Tayls_7 on April 26, 2022, 09:50:50 PM
He pressed Leicester on his own. I'm not saying he played well, as he when in possession he doesn't look like scoring, but off it he worked exceptionally hard.
Correct, and one of the few Villa players who looked to have a bit of pace.
Post by: Drummond on April 26, 2022, 10:34:27 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 26, 2022, 10:41:23 PM
He pressed Leicester on his own. I'm not saying he played well, as he when in possession he doesn't look like scoring, but off it he worked exceptionally hard.
Correct, and one of the few Villa players who looked to have a bit of pace.
Wright and Shearer analysed Watkins game on MOTD and approved highly of it and they were the best strikers of the 90s so everyone else's contrary opinion can get tae fuuu...
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 26, 2022, 10:43:44 PM
I'll be excited again at the beginning of August, but that's just because it'll be the season starting again. Same as on fixture release day. Right now, well there's no evidence to get me excited.
Play well, score some goals (no goals from open play in over 360 minutes of football) and do ok til the end of the season and I may change my view.
With the squad we have we should be higher than we are. I was prepared to give leeway earlier in the season when you know who did you know what, and we had a pile of injured unfit players. But now, well we should be doing better.
My team for the weekend would be.....
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I know people don't like stats like xG on here but from the last 4 games if you use the stats here - https://understat.com/team/Aston_Villa/2021 - it suggests that, on average, we should've scored 3.5 goals from the chances we've created in the last 4 games. That 'feels' correct to me because we've missed some chances I'd have expected us to take.
We barely created anything that would get xG excited at Leicester. Bailey shooting well over would've probably just about registered but not Watkins shooting from tight angles or Buendia curling one from edge of box just wide late on.
Certainly missed sitters from Ings and Watkins though in the two previous before that which hints at what needs to be improved even if the all conquering DM arrives.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 26, 2022, 10:46:31 PM
He pressed Leicester on his own. I'm not saying he played well, as he when in possession he doesn't look like scoring, but off it he worked exceptionally hard.
Annoying we can't really make it work pushing him out wide at this level as there could still be a role for him in the 11 next season from a wider position if we properly coached him on the traning ground (and of course he did play there for Brentford when they had Maupay as CF).
Feels like another underwhelming season coming up if it's just him and Ings alternating as CF again next season or we keep pairing them up and crossing our fingers.
Post by: Beard82 on April 26, 2022, 11:26:19 PM
I can’t think they will both be as out of form next season. There not bad players, I think Ollie oarticularly would benefit from cut backs more oftenHe pressed Leicester on his own. I'm not saying he played well, as he when in possession he doesn't look like scoring, but off it he worked exceptionally hard.
Annoying we can't really make it work pushing him out wide at this level as there could still be a role for him in the 11 next season from a wider position if we properly coached him on the traning ground (and of course he did play there for Brentford when they had Maupay as CF).
Feels like another underwhelming season coming up if it's just him and Ings alternating as CF again next season or we keep pairing them up and crossing our fingers.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 27, 2022, 09:45:08 AM
I know what you mean, but I think Ings and Buendia understand each other better. And let's face it, neither of our strikers is scoring.Agreed. I'd be playing both of them. Ings is far better at link up play than Watkins, he is a very clever player. We should just back him in a run of games to see if he can find his shooting boots.
Edit - I'd also like to try the line up you posted. I think I mentioned the same but with Doug not Tim a while back, but either works for me
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 27, 2022, 05:07:35 PM
Post by: Risso on April 27, 2022, 05:09:53 PM
Now we have Gerrard whos only affiliation is with his own CV.
What are you basing that on? We had a proper Villa person as captain, and he fucked off after trying to do so in at least two previous seasons.
Post by: Pat Mustard on April 27, 2022, 05:12:43 PM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 27, 2022, 06:48:12 PM
Now we have Gerrard whos only affiliation is with his own CV.
What are you basing that on? We had a proper Villa person as captain, and he fucked off after trying to do so in at least two previous seasons.
I take your point but we all know players are largely all about themselves. I suppose I feel a bit like when SGT left first time out and we got Dr Jo. Order was restored when Ron joined. These types had an affinity for the club. I don't get that impression with Mr G. But as others say and it is a cliche, i am happy to be proved wrong.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 27, 2022, 06:49:51 PM
Post by: Risso on April 27, 2022, 07:08:27 PM
Regardless of whether things would work differently once Gerrard has his own personnel, I have to say it worries me that he is completely failing to get a tune out of what we have currently. We've scored 2 goals in our last five games, one of which was a dodgy penalty and the other no more than a 90th minute consolation. Say what you like about certain players shortcomings, that is a shocking return for a team that has the likes of Watkins, Ings, Coutinho, Buendia, Bailey, Traore, Ramsey etc. available.
We could and should have won the West Ham game. We had more total shots and shots on target, and Ings missed an absolute sitter. The Arsenal game was dire and we never looked like scoring, but we created loads of chances against Spurs and yet again Watkins and Ings couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo despite having several chances put on a plate for them. I think Gerrard fully deserves his share of the blame for the Arsenal game, as he set us up all wrong, but the Spurs game was mostly on the players.
Post by: Beard82 on April 27, 2022, 07:12:53 PM
Its weather those players are better, and if they come to villa.
I worry that there wont be many that tick both boxes
Post by: mrfuse on April 27, 2022, 07:39:41 PM
I know what you mean, but I think Ings and Buendia understand each other better. And let's face it, neither of our strikers is scoring.Agreed. I'd be playing both of them. Ings is far better at link up play than Watkins, he is a very clever player. We should just back him in a run of games to see if he can find his shooting boots.
Edit - I'd also like to try the line up you posted. I think I mentioned the same but with Doug not Tim a while back, but either works for me
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I disagree, nothing I've seen suggests Ings is a clever player. If he doesn't score which is pretty much most games he becomes anonymous.
At least when Ollie doesn't score he puts himself about like he did in the Leicester game.
Post by: brontebilly on April 27, 2022, 09:25:05 PM
I know what you mean, but I think Ings and Buendia understand each other better. And let's face it, neither of our strikers is scoring.Agreed. I'd be playing both of them. Ings is far better at link up play than Watkins, he is a very clever player. We should just back him in a run of games to see if he can find his shooting boots.
Edit - I'd also like to try the line up you posted. I think I mentioned the same but with Doug not Tim a while back, but either works for me
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I disagree, nothing I've seen suggests Ings is a clever player. If he doesn't score which is pretty much most games he becomes anonymous.
At least when Ollie doesn't score he puts himself about like he did in the Leicester game.
Plenty of games Watkins has played this season he has nothing of the sort, bar handing back possession constantly.
Post by: ROBBO on April 28, 2022, 01:27:22 AM
Post by: Mister E on April 28, 2022, 07:45:20 AM
It feels like there is a big gamble on getting the players in of the calibre he wants.This is where scouting comes into play: where is the next undiscovered Kante? What about the next emerging Kane?
Its weather those players are better, and if they come to villa.
I worry that there wont be many that tick both boxes
My fear is that we are only shopping in Harrods whereas we should also be digging around the local curiosity shop as well.
We didn't do badly on value for money when we bought McGinn, for example.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 28, 2022, 08:55:46 AM
I have many concerns but not least of them is the overwhelming sense of a lack of excitement - the summer may make me change my mind as will of course a good start to next season. But it all seems so bland again. Whatever else you say about what we had previously, it made me feel massively excited about the new era at the club again with proper Villa people involved at the top and on the field. Now we have Gerrard whos only affiliation is with his own CV.A few wins will soon change this I'm sure. And how many managers truly have an afilliation with a club until they've been there for a while? Either he does a good job or he doesn't. The Liverpool thing really is a red herring that people are getting worked up about for no reason. He'll be sacked well before Klopp leaves anfield and if he isn't then we'll be sitting pretty in the top 6.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 28, 2022, 09:01:33 AM
I can't see how you come to that view if you have watched him regularly. His passing, link up play and movement is mostly excellent. It's his finishing which has let him down this season and given that is normally a strength he is known for I can't help feeling he'll come good with a run of games.I know what you mean, but I think Ings and Buendia understand each other better. And let's face it, neither of our strikers is scoring.Agreed. I'd be playing both of them. Ings is far better at link up play than Watkins, he is a very clever player. We should just back him in a run of games to see if he can find his shooting boots.
Edit - I'd also like to try the line up you posted. I think I mentioned the same but with Doug not Tim a while back, but either works for me
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I disagree, nothing I've seen suggests Ings is a clever player. If he doesn't score which is pretty much most games he becomes anonymous.
At least when Ollie doesn't score he puts himself about like he did in the Leicester game.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 28, 2022, 09:03:43 AM
We bought them both - Nakamba and Wesley. Unfortunately it didn't quite pan out as it's not that easy.It feels like there is a big gamble on getting the players in of the calibre he wants.This is where scouting comes into play: where is the next undiscovered Kante? What about the next emerging Kane?
Its weather those players are better, and if they come to villa.
I worry that there wont be many that tick both boxes
My fear is that we are only shopping in Harrods whereas we should also be digging around the local curiosity shop as well.
We didn't do badly on value for money when we bought McGinn, for example.
Post by: boozey182 on April 28, 2022, 09:15:24 AM
Regardless of whether things would work differently once Gerrard has his own personnel, I have to say it worries me that he is completely failing to get a tune out of what we have currently. We've scored 2 goals in our last five games, one of which was a dodgy penalty and the other no more than a 90th minute consolation. Say what you like about certain players shortcomings, that is a shocking return for a team that has the likes of Watkins, Ings, Coutinho, Buendia, Bailey, Traore, Ramsey etc. available.
We could and should have won the West Ham game. We had more total shots and shots on target, and Ings missed an absolute sitter. The Arsenal game was dire and we never looked like scoring, but we created loads of chances against Spurs and yet again Watkins and Ings couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo despite having several chances put on a plate for them. I think Gerrard fully deserves his share of the blame for the Arsenal game, as he set us up all wrong, but the Spurs game was mostly on the players.
I can see what you're getting at here, but I'm not sure how much weight you can put on these individual moments when you are looking at the big picture. You're absolutely right in that we should have done better in those games, and the Spurs game was a freak - but ultimately we lost all of them, and the manager is responsible for the results. If Ings wouldn't have missed a couple of sitters against Wolves at home, maybe we wouldn't have gone on the run that cost Dean his job. If Whelan wouldn't have missed that penalty against Preston...
Players will always let their managers down in individual moments - what you want from a manager is to create a system that plays to their strengths so that when they do make mistakes, it doesn't cost points - or at least as few as possible.
However you dress it up, losing four matches on the bounce with this squad in this league is unacceptable, as is no win in 5. Let's hope that it doesn't happen again for a very long time, so we're not forced to scrutinise missed chances from a month ago just to try and justify our manager's position. No fan should have to work that hard, as admirable as it is.
Post by: Risso on April 28, 2022, 09:20:07 AM
Post by: JD on April 28, 2022, 09:29:56 AM
Merely pointing out that despite the results, we have been creating chances. The fact that our strikers aren’t taking easy chances isn’t really the manager’s fault. Once they cross the line, they have to perform.
Totally agree.
In some games the amount of chances we waste is gob smacking (like Spurzzzz). You can't blame Gerard for that.
Post by: boozey182 on April 28, 2022, 09:30:50 AM
Merely pointing out that despite the results, we have been creating chances. The fact that our strikers aren’t taking easy chances isn’t really the manager’s fault. Once they cross the line, they have to perform.
Yeah, I get that. I wasn't trying to dismiss that point completely, I just think that when you are looking at one match you can point to frustrating moments where your players should have done better. When it's a run of 4 or 5 matches, I think it's more likely that there is a bigger problem than players missing chances that we know for sure that they are capable of taking.
That's all happened now though, and we've stoppped the rot. We now have the rest of the season to beat the teams that we should be beating, and to put up a bit of a fight against the teams we want to be competing with - teams that we've at least given a good game so far this season.
There are no excuses now. We've had our dip and Saturday is such a great opportunity to get a bit of positivity and excitment going around the place - we really need that. With the talent in the squad, a young ambitious manager and the amount of money we have to spend, we should all be on top of the world and incredibly optimistic about next season. The fact that we're not is incredibly worrying, but it can all start to change on Saturday.
Post by: Mister E on April 28, 2022, 09:37:50 AM
We clearly didn't!!We bought them both - Nakamba and Wesley. Unfortunately it didn't quite pan out as it's not that easy.It feels like there is a big gamble on getting the players in of the calibre he wants.This is where scouting comes into play: where is the next undiscovered Kante? What about the next emerging Kane?
Its weather those players are better, and if they come to villa.
I worry that there wont be many that tick both boxes
My fear is that we are only shopping in Harrods whereas we should also be digging around the local curiosity shop as well.
We didn't do badly on value for money when we bought McGinn, for example.
And, who said it's easy?!
Post by: LeeB on April 28, 2022, 09:52:55 AM
I can't see how you come to that view if you have watched him regularly. His passing, link up play and movement is mostly excellent. It's his finishing which has let him down this season and given that is normally a strength he is known for I can't help feeling he'll come good with a run of games.I know what you mean, but I think Ings and Buendia understand each other better. And let's face it, neither of our strikers is scoring.Agreed. I'd be playing both of them. Ings is far better at link up play than Watkins, he is a very clever player. We should just back him in a run of games to see if he can find his shooting boots.
Edit - I'd also like to try the line up you posted. I think I mentioned the same but with Doug not Tim a while back, but either works for me
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I disagree, nothing I've seen suggests Ings is a clever player. If he doesn't score which is pretty much most games he becomes anonymous.
At least when Ollie doesn't score he puts himself about like he did in the Leicester game.
He's a clever player for sure, but he's not been particularly effective for us.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 28, 2022, 09:58:53 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 28, 2022, 10:53:40 AM
Ings poor finishing, Watkins poor finishing and the first touch of breeze block.
Post by: LeeB on April 28, 2022, 11:06:31 AM
Post by: sid1964 on April 28, 2022, 11:23:21 AM
We should win comfortably - so will probably end as 1-1 draw
Post by: chrisw1 on April 28, 2022, 11:54:45 AM
Even with the touch of breeze block Watkins brings more to the table than Ings, we can't get up the pitch when Ings is playing on his jack.I disagree. But I guess I'm in the minority, including Gerrard as Watkins seems to be keeping the shirt.
Post by: Rigadon on April 28, 2022, 12:18:36 PM
Merely pointing out that despite the results, we have been creating chances. The fact that our strikers aren’t taking easy chances isn’t really the manager’s fault. Once they cross the line, they have to perform.
We've also been dropping massive clangers in defence, which is just as damaging results0wise and is another thing you can't blame the manager for. You CAN hold Gerrard accountable when the tactics / shape has been wrong - I think you mentioned the Arsenal game earlier in the thread as an example, which I agree with.
This league is difficult to get results in. Aside from maybe Norwich, who have themselves still managed 5 wins this season apparently, there are no mugs. Stupid mistakes and missed chances really are result-changers.
We haven't drawn enough games either, which is down to the same thing. We have won 11, but only drawn 4 games. Looking at the table, of the other teams who have won 11 games so far this season Newcastle are in 9th (10 draws), Leicester 10th ( 9 draws), Brentford 12th (7 draws).
Post by: Chris Smith on April 28, 2022, 12:37:27 PM
Merely pointing out that despite the results, we have been creating chances. The fact that our strikers aren’t taking easy chances isn’t really the manager’s fault. Once they cross the line, they have to perform.
We've also been dropping massive clangers in defence, which is just as damaging results0wise and is another thing you can't blame the manager for. You CAN hold Gerrard accountable when the tactics / shape has been wrong - I think you mentioned the Arsenal game earlier in the thread as an example, which I agree with.
This league is difficult to get results in. Aside from maybe Norwich, who have themselves still managed 5 wins this season apparently, there are no mugs. Stupid mistakes and missed chances really are result-changers.
We haven't drawn enough games either, which is down to the same thing. We have won 11, but only drawn 4 games. Looking at the table, of the other teams who have won 11 games so far this season Newcastle are in 9th (10 draws), Leicester 10th ( 9 draws), Brentford 12th (7 draws).
I agree that you can’t blame the manager directly for individual errors but he has to take responsibility when it becomes a pattern. And it’s up to him to fix it. For example he can drop players, change the shape or be more pro-active in his use of substitutes.
He’ll get his own players in the summer and a full pre-season then we’ll see if the nagging doubts are justified or not.
Post by: mrfuse on April 28, 2022, 01:18:08 PM
I can't see how you come to that view if you have watched him regularly. His passing, link up play and movement is mostly excellent. It's his finishing which has let him down this season and given that is normally a strength he is known for I can't help feeling he'll come good with a run of games.I know what you mean, but I think Ings and Buendia understand each other better. And let's face it, neither of our strikers is scoring.Agreed. I'd be playing both of them. Ings is far better at link up play than Watkins, he is a very clever player. We should just back him in a run of games to see if he can find his shooting boots.
Edit - I'd also like to try the line up you posted. I think I mentioned the same but with Doug not Tim a while back, but either works for me
Martinez
Cash Konsa Mings Chrisene
Iroegbunam Nakamba
Buendia Ramsey
Coutinho
Ings
I disagree, nothing I've seen suggests Ings is a clever player. If he doesn't score which is pretty much most games he becomes anonymous.
At least when Ollie doesn't score he puts himself about like he did in the Leicester game.
I watch every Villa game, but that's the beauty of having opinions people have different viewpoints.
I didn't particularly see the need for signing Ings at the time but wasn't too displeased as I thought him and Watkins could push each other.
Ollie hasn't been that great but just less shit than Ings who has really disappointed me. I'f someone like Newcastle came in for him I would be more than happy to see him go. Hopefully Archer can step up because he does look a prospect.
Post by: Dave P on April 28, 2022, 04:35:55 PM
I saw a stat earlier that since his opening four wins, we have four wins from 15. Including the three on the trot in March.
Why would you ignore those wins? That seems to be reaching for a bad stat?
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on April 28, 2022, 04:42:21 PM
I saw a stat earlier that since his opening four wins, we have four wins from 15. Including the three on the trot in March.
Why would you ignore those wins? That seems to be reaching for a bad stat?
New Manager bounce?
Post by: Beard82 on April 28, 2022, 05:03:01 PM
Post by: olaftab on April 29, 2022, 05:19:19 AM
How blessed are we?
Post by: olaftab on April 29, 2022, 09:39:22 AM
Well lot of teams get an initial boost, look at Burnley, without any meaningful long term improvement. I said at the time we will judge him 10 to 20 games. So post settling down his last 15 is a fair measure and it doesn’t look good.I saw a stat earlier that since his opening four wins, we have four wins from 15. Including the three on the trot in March.
Why would you ignore those wins? That seems to be reaching for a bad stat?
Post by: levico on April 29, 2022, 10:15:10 AM
Post by: Footy-Vill on April 29, 2022, 10:35:20 AM
Getting a sneaking feeling that this thread is going to become much more relevant after tomorrow’s match.I think tomorrow performances of both teams as much as the result will give a good indication if the club was right to get rid of Dean and replace him with Gerrard
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 29, 2022, 10:45:45 AM
Getting a sneaking feeling that this thread is going to become much more relevant after tomorrow’s match.I think tomorrow performances of both teams as much as the result will give a good indication if the club was right to get rid of Dean and replace him with Gerrard
I’m not sure it will. Dean needed to go, as much good as he had done. Don’t know whether Gerrard will succeed or not, but he needs time and tomorrow won’t answer that either way.
Post by: curiousorange on April 29, 2022, 11:08:04 AM
Getting a sneaking feeling that this thread is going to become much more relevant after tomorrow’s match.
Obviously any negative will cause a mass panic, you're right. But a win more or less guarantees safety, and you'll probably find most just realise that Gerrard is going nowhere and flock to a newly created "who do we sell/buy?" thread.
Post by: Rigadon on April 29, 2022, 12:08:45 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 29, 2022, 12:33:41 PM
Post by: Rigadon on April 29, 2022, 12:36:25 PM
I'm not sure tomorrow will make any difference.
I don't think we'll be relegated. But lose tomorrow and Burnely / Everton both win and the pressure gets amplified.
Post by: paul_e on April 29, 2022, 01:14:40 PM
I'm not sure tomorrow will make any difference.
I don't think we'll be relegated. But lose tomorrow and Burnely / Everton both win and the pressure gets amplified.
Whilst that is true if you re-write that as "We might be in trouble if 3 of the 4 worst teams in the league so far all win" it looks pretty unlikely.
Post by: Mister E on April 29, 2022, 01:18:20 PM
Lose tomorrow, Gerrard fan or not (I am generally a fan), a certain amount of panic is justified in my opinion, especially if other results don't go our way. It's certainly plausible Burnley will beat Watford, less so that Everton beat Chelsea but still possible. If that happens we'd be 5 points above the relegation places with 5 games to go, 2 being against bloody Burnley!. That could get very uncomfortable indeed. I think the game tomorrow is huge for Gerrard the more I think about it, especially considering who the other manager is.Yes, can this group of players and rookie manager deal with 'very uncomfortable'? ... I'm not convinced they can, although I do think we'll get something from tomorrow's game.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 29, 2022, 06:03:28 PM
Post by: Allan C on April 30, 2022, 03:35:11 PM
I disagree too. I’d currently be picking Ings over Watkins.Even with the touch of breeze block Watkins brings more to the table than Ings, we can't get up the pitch when Ings is playing on his jack.I disagree. But I guess I'm in the minority, including Gerrard as Watkins seems to be keeping the shirt.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 30, 2022, 09:38:28 PM
Post by: Ads on April 30, 2022, 09:39:35 PM
In. https://twitter.com/marshallavfc/status/1520433292562022409 and with some very winnable games left.
Apologist!
Post by: wittonwarrior on April 30, 2022, 09:48:27 PM
Post by: Risso on April 30, 2022, 09:56:52 PM
If that was pullis, Smith or Bruce today we would have got booed Gerrard needs to up his game is he twinned with safegate
Booing after a 2-0 win? If you say so.
Post by: ROBBO on April 30, 2022, 10:03:20 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 30, 2022, 10:25:57 PM
If that was pullis, Smith or Bruce today we would have got booed Gerrard needs to up his game is he twinned with safegate
Booing after a 2-0 win? If you say so.
Quite.
Post by: RamboandBruno on April 30, 2022, 11:25:33 PM
If that was pullis, Smith or Bruce today we would have got booed Gerrard needs to up his game is he twinned with safegate
Er….no
Post by: gpbarr on April 30, 2022, 11:33:27 PM
In. https://twitter.com/marshallavfc/status/1520433292562022409 and with some very winnable games left.
Apologist!
Precisely. Out
Post by: Ads on April 30, 2022, 11:39:24 PM
In. https://twitter.com/marshallavfc/status/1520433292562022409 and with some very winnable games left.
Apologist!
Precisely. Out
Nope.
Post by: Villan82 on April 30, 2022, 11:45:43 PM
It's not been fantastic but it has been an improvement and it is rather pathetic the way some of our fans are determine to misrepresent how things have gone to further an anti-Gerrard agenda.
Post by: gpbarr on May 01, 2022, 01:20:43 AM
The facts are clear. We have 30 points from Gerrard's 22 games and we had 10 points from Smith's 11 games.
It's not been fantastic but it has been an improvement and it is rather pathetic the way some of our fans are determine to misrepresent how things have gone to further an anti-Gerrard agenda.
but you write as if its been clear - in Dean's 87 games in charge while we were in the PL, he amassed 100 points or 1.15 ppg. Gerrard has amassed 30 from 22 or 1.36 ppg. So on average, an extra 7 points per season.
The reason some of us dont see it the way you do is that we were told when Dean was sacked that it was because we were not progressing.
If this is what progression looks like, what was the point?
Post by: olaftab on May 01, 2022, 05:31:15 AM
The facts are clear. We have 30 points from Gerrard's 22 games and we had 10 points from Smith's 11 games.No not so clear. We are still languishing in around 15th and there was a period before the last two games where SG delivered 13 points from 15 games and that after adding two world class players to his armour. So our current status is nothing to write hone about.
It's not been fantastic but it has been an improvement and it is rather pathetic the way some of our fans are determine to misrepresent how things have gone to further an anti-Gerrard agenda.
Post by: olaftab on May 01, 2022, 05:35:59 AM
Still trying to work out what Gerrards style of play is. Some of our players are not on the same page.Totally ineffective a bit like this stile.
(https://i.ibb.co/1qbc7vt/597-A712-B-BD2-E-4-F00-AB58-9029-A0-ACCBB2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1qbc7vt)
Post by: IFWaters on May 01, 2022, 06:00:15 AM
Post by: Ads on May 01, 2022, 07:07:32 AM
The facts are clear. We have 30 points from Gerrard's 22 games and we had 10 points from Smith's 11 games.No not so clear. We are still languishing in around 15th and there was a period before the last two games where SG delivered 13 points from 15 games and that after adding two world class players to his armour. So our current status is nothing to write hone about.
It's not been fantastic but it has been an improvement and it is rather pathetic the way some of our fans are determine to misrepresent how things have gone to further an anti-Gerrard agenda.
Our current status is due to Smith. Somebody posted a league table showing we are 9th in the form table since Gerrard took over. An indicator of improvement and what we might see next term, even if he isn't given the chance to significantly improve the squad with a large spend (which we all know he will be given).
There's an irony that those who appear vehemently anti-Gerrard level a criticism at Purslow that he's obsessed with the name, when it appears those who didn't want him, gave him no time and moan even when we take 4 from our last 2 without conceding, are guilty of exactly that.
Post by: Risso on May 01, 2022, 07:59:41 AM
The facts are clear. We have 30 points from Gerrard's 22 games and we had 10 points from Smith's 11 games.
It's not been fantastic but it has been an improvement and it is rather pathetic the way some of our fans are determine to misrepresent how things have gone to further an anti-Gerrard agenda.
but you write as if its been clear - in Dean's 87 games in charge while we were in the PL, he amassed 100 points or 1.15 ppg. Gerrard has amassed 30 from 22 or 1.36 ppg. So on average, an extra 7 points per season.
The reason some of us dont see it the way you do is that we were told when Dean was sacked that it was because we were not progressing.
If this is what progression looks like, what was the point?
Because he took over mid-season, and inherited a team that was in complete disarray. The owners are intelligent enough to realise that in those circumstances, any manager in the world that they brought in would need at least one summer transfer window and a pre-season to really put his own stamp on the team. Beat Burnley and we're up to 10th, still with a game in hand.
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on May 01, 2022, 08:32:50 AM
Slightly concerning was the tactic to play Coutinho on the left in the 1st half to accommodate Bailey on the right. Coutinho is a player he knows well, yet he played him in a weaker less effective role. Coutinho was far better and more involved when in the centre behind Ings and Watkins in the 2nd half. It's fine attracting players of the calibre of Coutinho, but you have to know what to do with them when you've got them.
Post by: PeterWithe on May 01, 2022, 08:53:32 AM
Post by: AV82EC on May 01, 2022, 09:01:21 AM
What we need to work on is the flow and structure of our play, all the players are guilty of picking the wrong option time and time again. Virtually every outfield player yesterday in a great position to play someone in chose the wrong option,or overhit or underhit the pass.
There’s still that soft underbelly as well Norwich really upped the pace for 10-15 mins in the second half but lacked the quality to lay a glove on us but we looked really sloppy and soft and just couldn’t keep possession.
Post by: N'ZMAV on May 01, 2022, 09:03:15 AM
he'll never win some over.The facts are clear. We have 30 points from Gerrard's 22 games and we had 10 points from Smith's 11 games.No not so clear. We are still languishing in around 15th and there was a period before the last two games where SG delivered 13 points from 15 games and that after adding two world class players to his armour. So our current status is nothing to write hone about.
It's not been fantastic but it has been an improvement and it is rather pathetic the way some of our fans are determine to misrepresent how things have gone to further an anti-Gerrard agenda.
Our current status is due to Smith. Somebody posted a league table showing we are 9th in the form table since Gerrard took over. An indicator of improvement and what we might see next term, even if he isn't given the chance to significantly improve the squad with a large spend (which we all know he will be given).
There's an irony that those who appear vehemently anti-Gerrard level a criticism at Purslow that he's obsessed with the name, when it appears those who didn't want him, gave him no time and moan even when we take 4 from our last 2 without conceding, are guilty of exactly that.
Post by: ASHTONVILLA on May 01, 2022, 09:24:49 AM
Think we will do far better next season, when we start with a proper pre-season preparation rather than throwing a leaving party for Jack in a park in London.
Looking forwards to seeing 2-3 new players come in, and to more of the youngsters coming into the squad. The highlight of this season has been the emergence of Ramsey, and I can Iroegbunam, Kessler Hayden and Archer featuring more next year as well.
Gerrard already has us picking up 7 points a season more than Smith did, despite all the shortcomings in the squad. Can see us achieving European qualification next season.
He wasn't a name I would have picked when we recruited him, and was surprised we didn't go for more experience. Been pleasantly surprised and like his attitude and straightforwards interviews. Think he will do well eventually.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 01, 2022, 09:40:42 AM
In. https://twitter.com/marshallavfc/status/1520433292562022409 and with some very winnable games left.
Apologist!
Sorry.
Not that I think Gerrard's immune from criticism. Not keen on the way he wears a shirt and tie under his navy crewneck.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on May 01, 2022, 10:12:41 AM
In. https://twitter.com/marshallavfc/status/1520433292562022409 and with some very winnable games left.
Apologist!
Sorry.
Not that I think Gerrard's immune from criticism. Not keen on the way he wears a shirt and tie under his navy crewneck.
Apparently he’s “combining sophistication with subtlety”
“……perfectly capturing the personality and style of not only Steven but the city of Liverpool”
https://www.sggapparel.com/pages/about
Is that see-through jumper from his own collection? Almost makes me pine for the days when our lads were kitted out in Ciro Citterio
Post by: Steve67 on May 01, 2022, 11:42:57 AM
Post by: olaftab on May 01, 2022, 12:56:26 PM
he'll never win some over.Oh he will if he wins the FA cup next season but he won’t if he does nothing more that adequate point collection and plays painfully eye hurting boring football like against Norwich yesterday.
Post by: Clive W on May 01, 2022, 01:23:06 PM
Before yesterday’s game, the general consensus appeared to be “please, just win Villa”.
Afterwards it was “yes but it was against Norwich. A better team would have beaten us”.
With a run of 4 straight defeats, need must.
The battling point at Leicester put an end to that run but it was only because “they had one eye on Europe. We would have lost otherwise”.
Two games, four points and two clean sheets.
Would we want to watch matches of that quality all season?
Almost certainly not.
Would we be happy if we had gone out all guns blazing and ended up losing six in a row?
Definitely not.
I humbly suggest that sometimes a sense of perspective is in short supply here.
Post by: Ads on May 01, 2022, 02:02:06 PM
Post by: john e on May 01, 2022, 02:02:26 PM
We are a strange bunch on here.
Before yesterday’s game, the general consensus appeared to be “please, just win Villa”.
Afterwards it was “yes but it was against Norwich. A better team would have beaten us”.
With a run of 4 straight defeats, need must.
The battling point at Leicester put an end to that run but it was only because “they had one eye on Europe. We would have lost otherwise”.
Two games, four points and two clean sheets.
Would we want to watch matches of that quality all season?
Almost certainly not.
Would we be happy if we had gone out all guns blazing and ended up losing six in a row?
Definitely not.
I humbly suggest that sometimes a sense of perspective is in short supply here.
You might humbly suggest it
But it’s not gona happen mate
Post by: olaftab on May 01, 2022, 04:43:58 PM
I humbly suggest that sometimes a sense of perspective is in short supply here.Why do we need a sense of perspective? It's a football forum associated with fun and leisure activity. It's not important stuff like work or family life .
Sometimes posters do not need to be judgmental about other posters.
Post by: gpbarr on May 01, 2022, 05:43:36 PM
Post by: Chris Smith on May 01, 2022, 06:10:06 PM
We are Villa fans. Perspective - nah! Disagreement and debate is good for the soul 👍
Oh no it isn’t.
Post by: gpbarr on May 01, 2022, 06:31:48 PM
We are Villa fans. Perspective - nah! Disagreement and debate is good for the soul 👍
Oh no it isn’t.
😃
Post by: Holy Trinity on May 01, 2022, 06:53:57 PM
I honestly think if he had been here all season we would have 6-9 points extra and be sat around 10th. I also think if we played Burnley when we were supposed to we would have won that game comfortably and possibly fighting it out for 7th this season.
Now I know its all abit if my aunty's had, but Smiths biggest downfall for me was always struggling against the small teams we should have walked over. Slippy for the most part doesn't seem to share that same problem however his record vs the top teams isn't as good as dean's (not looked into it but seems that way from memory).
A full pre season is an absolute must for me and unless we are looking destined for the championship next season I would give him the entire of next season too. We are desperately short of a clinical finisher, a ball winning/playing center mid and a world class centre back. I would argue providing we sign Coutinho on a permanent deal that we would have a squad capable of finishing top 6 with those additions. If we sign all of the above I think we will be in for a treat next season. A few players aren't good enough for where we need to be if they are starting week in and week out but I do think every player in this squad is capable of playing some sort of role in a successful team. A position we haven't been in for over a decade.
Did we expect instant success? No
Did we hope for a more immediate success? Yes
Do we all wish Deano had been the man to take us all the way? Yes we all do but unfortunately he just couldn't do it and if it was his own doing or if it was just a case of not being forceful enough with his transfer desires he was not the man for the job and we need to stop comparing apples with oranges.
Let just get behind the team and see where our owners are taking us because let's face it the owners are going to outlast many of the players and managers in the coming years.
Post by: N'ZMAV on May 01, 2022, 07:09:44 PM
That won't go down well :)
Post by: clash city rocker on May 01, 2022, 07:25:39 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on May 01, 2022, 07:51:21 PM
Two things I would like to see more of - I'd like him to walk the walk as well as he talks the talk (example: don't just talk about big changes every week, make them) and I'd like to see him react during matches far more than he has done thus far, make changes to cope with the ebb and flow of the match. Not enough of that thus far.
What I will say is, although I hated him as a player and obviously him being involved with us is bound to change feelings, I am warming to him in how he has conducted himself around the club, much as I did with John Terry (another one I loathed as a player).
There is definitely something about 'winners' - we saw it in Terry when he came here as a player and played every match with the same intensity he did at Chelsea and then the way he was when here as a member of the coaching staff, and I think we have seen it in Gerrard too.
That's a big chunk of our problems in recent years - too much meek acceptance of mediocrity and too many people around the club just here for the journey and no thought towards glory.
Post by: SamTheMouse on May 01, 2022, 09:16:15 PM
This summer will be interesting.
Post by: algy on May 02, 2022, 07:30:33 AM
I didnt want Gerrard initially but he has shown me enough to think he can do it at this level.Think this is a very good point.
I honestly think if he had been here all season we would have 6-9 points extra and be sat around 10th. I also think if we played Burnley when we were supposed to we would have won that game comfortably and possibly fighting it out for 7th this season.
Now I know its all abit if my aunty's had, but Smiths biggest downfall for me was always struggling against the small teams we should have walked over. Slippy for the most part doesn't seem to share that same problem however his record vs the top teams isn't as good as dean's (not looked into it but seems that way from memory).
A full pre season is an absolute must for me and unless we are looking destined for the championship next season I would give him the entire of next season too. We are desperately short of a clinical finisher, a ball winning/playing center mid and a world class centre back. I would argue providing we sign Coutinho on a permanent deal that we would have a squad capable of finishing top 6 with those additions. If we sign all of the above I think we will be in for a treat next season. A few players aren't good enough for where we need to be if they are starting week in and week out but I do think every player in this squad is capable of playing some sort of role in a successful team. A position we haven't been in for over a decade.
Did we expect instant success? No
Did we hope for a more immediate success? Yes
Do we all wish Deano had been the man to take us all the way? Yes we all do but unfortunately he just couldn't do it and if it was his own doing or if it was just a case of not being forceful enough with his transfer desires he was not the man for the job and we need to stop comparing apples with oranges.
Let just get behind the team and see where our owners are taking us because let's face it the owners are going to outlast many of the players and managers in the coming years.
I'd only add that Gerrard's experience in Scotland will have left him a little short of managing a team against stronger opposition on a regular basis, and that might be partially a cause of our less-than-stellar record against those type of teams (compared to, say, Smith). I'd be happy giving Gerrard a bit more time to learn that side of things, as long as he's doing the business against the weaker ones.
Post by: nigel on May 02, 2022, 09:46:20 AM
Unless we’re in dire trouble he has to be given the full season. I don’t want us to be a Watford and start changing managers whenever there’s a blip
You only have to look at Arsenal and Arteta last season. Their fans wanted rid for the majority of the season, yet look at them now.
Further back in history Man U fans were calling for Fergies head…
Post by: ROBBO on May 02, 2022, 11:04:42 AM
Post by: Chris Smith on May 02, 2022, 11:47:18 AM
I saw a league table of where we would be starting from Gerrard first game. We were 9th (iir)
Unless we’re in dire trouble he has to be given the full season. I don’t want us to be a Watford and start changing managers whenever there’s a blip
You only have to look at Arsenal and Arteta last season. Their fans wanted rid for the majority of the season, yet look at them now.
Further back in history Man U fans were calling for Fergies head…
I think for the moment sticking with Gerrard and giving him the backing and the opportunity to implement his own ideas is the right thing to do but for every example where patience has proved to be right thing there is a manager who was given too long by a dithering board.
Post by: olaftab on May 02, 2022, 04:34:06 PM
that's a very sensible point of view.We don't need to be sensible when it's football. ;D
That won't go down well :)
But it's a very good post from the pious corner.
Post by: olaftab on May 02, 2022, 04:44:02 PM
I agree, and the signs appear to suggest that Gerrard himself is keen to surround himself with players that share exactly that winning attitude.I am not sure how he can do that on recruitment front? How do you identify a winning attitude in an individual who has been scouted for you by someone else? Would you say that all 25 Man City first teamers have a winning attitude? I would say that they are all high quality superb players first and winning attitude is instilled by the Manager/coach.
Post by: Beard82 on May 02, 2022, 05:17:41 PM
I think that’s right - only time will tell if that’s the right thing - but we need to give him every chance of success we can starting by signing Phil. We bought into him and his plan and we need to back that - he’s probably hit all the hard targetsI saw a league table of where we would be starting from Gerrard first game. We were 9th (iir)
Unless we’re in dire trouble he has to be given the full season. I don’t want us to be a Watford and start changing managers whenever there’s a blip
You only have to look at Arsenal and Arteta last season. Their fans wanted rid for the majority of the season, yet look at them now.
Further back in history Man U fans were calling for Fergies head…
I think for the moment sticking with Gerrard and giving him the backing and the opportunity to implement his own ideas is the right thing to do but for every example where patience has proved to be right thing there is a manager who was given too long by a dithering board.
Not completely convinced but we’ve started so well finish and he has shown signs of learning, another 6 points will be nice though - and a win against Man City and I’ll probably get his face tattooed on my arm
Post by: Beard82 on May 02, 2022, 05:25:34 PM
They do aptitude tests on them:I agree, and the signs appear to suggest that Gerrard himself is keen to surround himself with players that share exactly that winning attitude.I am not sure how he can do that on recruitment front? How do you identify a winning attitude in an individual who has been scouted for you by someone else? Would you say that all 25 Man City first teamers have a winning attitude? I would say that they are all high quality superb players first and winning attitude is instilled by the Manager/coach.
“Your 2 nil up against a local rival with 10 minutes to go, do you”
A - win
B - lose
Post by: curiousorange on May 02, 2022, 05:46:51 PM
They do aptitude tests on them:I agree, and the signs appear to suggest that Gerrard himself is keen to surround himself with players that share exactly that winning attitude.I am not sure how he can do that on recruitment front? How do you identify a winning attitude in an individual who has been scouted for you by someone else? Would you say that all 25 Man City first teamers have a winning attitude? I would say that they are all high quality superb players first and winning attitude is instilled by the Manager/coach.
“Your 2 nil up against a local rival with 10 minutes to go, do you”
A - win
B - lose
Winners play in his league squads. Losers play in his league cup squads.
Post by: SaddVillan on May 05, 2022, 10:09:19 PM
Gerrard's legacy at Ibrox?
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 05, 2022, 10:10:02 PM
Rangers through to a Euro Final.
Gerrard's legacy at Ibrox?
That's a reach.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 05, 2022, 10:26:09 PM
Rangers through to a Euro Final.
Gerrard's legacy at Ibrox?
I think I know what you're saying, in the '82 team carried on Ron Saunders' legacy kind of way?
Post by: Ads on May 06, 2022, 09:45:03 AM
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 06, 2022, 10:35:28 AM
I read the biggest change is that the Giovanni van Bronckhorst made is that SG two inside 10s have been ditched in favour of out and out wingers.
Something really Villa should be having given our personnel
Post by: Ads on May 06, 2022, 10:38:11 AM
Differentiate between Smith and Bruce where the former had to build a defence, because the later was a clown.
Post by: paul_e on May 06, 2022, 10:43:02 AM
Gerrard and GVB deserve credit for them getting where they are just like Smith and Gerrard share the 'credit' for where we are in the league.
Post by: Drummond on May 06, 2022, 10:45:39 AM
Tweak. Small tinkering of the original machine. Not significant overhaul. My point remains undiminished.
Differentiate between Smith and Bruce where the former had to build a defence, because the later was a clown.
So our improved form is down to Dean Smith?
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 06, 2022, 10:46:33 AM
Post by: Risso on May 06, 2022, 10:46:43 AM
Well actually there has been a slight tweak in the tactical system at Rangers
I read the biggest change is that the Giovanni van Bronckhorst made is that SG two inside 10s have been ditched in favour of out and out wingers.
Something really Villa should be having given our personnel
Given our personnel of two of the most injury prone wingers in the world who spend weeks out after tripping over a blade of grass? Yep, really good idea that, can't see any issues whatsoever.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 06, 2022, 10:50:51 AM
Will need a overhaul of improvement in quality player (according to SG) to suit how he wants to play.
That transition is all well and good but if it either doesn't work out or when change comes it's like we haven't stick to our previous building and identity and changed the whole process and project merely for SG.
I mean Buendia pathway is blocked because of Coutinho
I'm not sure SG is the type of guy who will work with the tools he's got and will just demand more players
I think some said this was like a MON approach to success.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on May 06, 2022, 10:59:18 AM
I’m not in the Gerrard out camp yet but I won’t be mentioning him in the same sentence as Saunders for a while
Post by: chrisw1 on May 06, 2022, 11:01:38 AM
Gerrard made his tactical decision before it was clear Bailey & Traore weren't going to feature this season. With El Ghazi, Bailey, Traore & Buendia (+ Watkins) in his initial squad, I think playing with wider forwards than our two narrow 10's is a pretty reasonable sugestion.Well actually there has been a slight tweak in the tactical system at Rangers
I read the biggest change is that the Giovanni van Bronckhorst made is that SG two inside 10s have been ditched in favour of out and out wingers.
Something really Villa should be having given our personnel
Given our personnel of two of the most injury prone wingers in the world who spend weeks out after tripping over a blade of grass? Yep, really good idea that, can't see any issues whatsoever.
Post by: Ads on May 06, 2022, 11:15:51 AM
Tweak. Small tinkering of the original machine. Not significant overhaul. My point remains undiminished.
Differentiate between Smith and Bruce where the former had to build a defence, because the later was a clown.
So our improved form is down to Dean Smith?
With regards to the Championship, it improved because we no longer had James Bree, Chester half a knee etc in defence.
This year it improved because Gerrard sorted out the positional mess of our midfield. Compare average positions with Southampton away and it showed a real absence of a plan.
It's not improved dramatically as what plagued Smith beyond those short comings, is what plagues Gerrard now and would plague anybody.
Post by: Risso on May 06, 2022, 11:21:51 AM
Gerrard made his tactical decision before it was clear Bailey & Traore weren't going to feature this season. With El Ghazi, Bailey, Traore & Buendia (+ Watkins) in his initial squad, I think playing with wider forwards than our two narrow 10's is a pretty reasonable sugestion.Well actually there has been a slight tweak in the tactical system at Rangers
I read the biggest change is that the Giovanni van Bronckhorst made is that SG two inside 10s have been ditched in favour of out and out wingers.
Something really Villa should be having given our personnel
Given our personnel of two of the most injury prone wingers in the world who spend weeks out after tripping over a blade of grass? Yep, really good idea that, can't see any issues whatsoever.
The facts don't back that up. Bailey started Gerrard's 2nd and 3rd games in charge, before Bailey injured himself running back into our half against Man City. Traore was injured from when Gerrard took over, got himself fit for the ANC, then injured himself again. Since getting back to some sort of fitness, Bailey has started three of the last 4 games. Buendia isn't an out and out winger as he lacks pace to beat people.
Post by: chrisw1 on May 06, 2022, 12:13:57 PM
Post by: Risso on May 06, 2022, 12:16:30 PM
My point is he had the personnel to play with wider forwards if he wanted to.
He didn't because they were injured.
Post by: Ian. on May 06, 2022, 12:18:23 PM
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 06, 2022, 02:08:47 PM
Trez been away with African Nations as well AEG has been tough as he proved himself last season and has ability to score or at least shoot at goal.
There's another reason shot count went down in matches as AEG was out the picture.
Interesting to see if he gets a summer reproach but don't think he fits Gerrards system as well as tough guys only persona so will be moved on . AEG was near playing international football and scoring and now he's been outcasted at Everton too.
Needs to move on for good of his career.
Post by: gpbarr on May 07, 2022, 11:25:04 AM
Saunders got us to the EC quarter finals. Gerrard managed 4 europa league games this season ( excluding the playoffs ) where he played 4, lost 2, drew 1 and won 1. Their record since he left is far better.
I’m not in the Gerrard out camp yet but I won’t be mentioning him in the same sentence as Saunders for a while
And further, Smith transformed us from a club struggling in the Championship to one that reached a cup final, thrashed Liverpool 7-2, delivered the clubs highest league finish in 11 years, and returned the feel good factor to the club.
When and if Gerrard starts emulating that, he will get credit. Until then, no one knows more than he that the jury is well and truly out.
Any comparison to the achievements of either Saunders or Smith is laughable.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 11:33:35 AM
With "Rangers", you're pretty much guaranteed European football before a ball is kicked.
I've seen some fans try to claim that their success in Europe proves that Gerrard underachieved there. I've seen others claim that he should get the credit. Both views are equally bollocks, IMO. If you want to judge his "Rangers" record, judge him on what he achieved there not what may or may not have happened if he had stayed.
Post by: N'ZMAV on May 07, 2022, 02:58:10 PM
Post by: Villan82 on May 07, 2022, 04:52:39 PM
33 points from 23 games compared to 10 points from Smith's 11 games.
The anti-Gerrard thing is clearly personal and not based on evidence.
Post by: Goldenballs on May 07, 2022, 04:59:28 PM
I'm just not convinced he's the man the push us on whilst spending lots of our owners cash. I don't like or dislike him. He's here, so we'll see how it pans out.
Post by: Clark W Griswold on May 07, 2022, 05:02:14 PM
He’s done well though yes, and another even just 4 points from his last 4 and he’ll have earned the right to have a good crack at it over the summer and next season in my eyes. He possibly has already.
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 07, 2022, 05:11:07 PM
Post by: olaftab on May 07, 2022, 05:15:30 PM
43 points with four games remaining, two of which are against Palace and Burnley.I think you need to drop your obsession with Smith's 10 from 11. I am sure we can pick a very bad 10 or so games run about Gerrard as well. Both out managers this season have ben worryingly inconsistent.
33 points from 23 games compared to 10 points from Smith's 11 games.
The anti-Gerrard thing is clearly personal and not based on evidence.
Post by: Risso on May 07, 2022, 05:16:21 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 07, 2022, 05:17:44 PM
43 points with four games remaining, two of which are against Palace and Burnley.I think you need to drop your obsession with Smith's 10 from 11. I am sure we can pick a very bad 10 or so games run about Gerrard as well. Both out managers this season have ben worryingly inconsistent.
33 points from 23 games compared to 10 points from Smith's 11 games.
The anti-Gerrard thing is clearly personal and not based on evidence.
The massive difference being Dean Smith’s 10 game form would have got us relegated because it was getting worse not better. Shit most of 2021 and 5 straight defeats would have us where Watford and his new team are today.
Post by: olaftab on May 07, 2022, 05:20:06 PM
Post by: Risso on May 07, 2022, 05:25:10 PM
As I said you can not capture a moment in time and project it a full season so fans need to drop 10 from 11 and just concentrate on where we are now and where we need to go.
You seemed to focus quite a bit on Gerrard’s four defeats without concentrating on where we needed to go.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 05:26:13 PM
Anyway, much better last two games. I'd still like us to at least give Liverpool/Man City a decent run for their money before committing myself too much, but he's done his cause a lot of good in the last fortnight.
Post by: olaftab on May 07, 2022, 05:29:30 PM
It was the right call at the time. Very worrying for all of us. I am please he has come out of it but really needs to avoid similar runs.As I said you can not capture a moment in time and project it a full season so fans need to drop 10 from 11 and just concentrate on where we are now and where we need to go.
You seemed to focus quite a bit on Gerrard’s four defeats without concentrating on where we needed to go.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 07, 2022, 05:32:13 PM
There are signs of quality at times since he's been in charge as well as signs of not so much.
Will have too see how summer goes and look forward to the new season.
Post by: Goldenballs on May 07, 2022, 05:32:21 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.Unless he'd bummed their missus or something why would any fan have an agenda against their teams new manager?
It would be bizarre, and seems equally bizarre to believe some fans do.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 07, 2022, 05:40:02 PM
Post by: Chris Smith on May 07, 2022, 05:40:39 PM
Post by: Clark W Griswold on May 07, 2022, 05:45:14 PM
He was certainly heading towards big question marks being valid based on the form before Leicester but as I say he’s now thankfully pretty close to have done enough for ‘more time’ to be completely justified
Post by: N'ZMAV on May 07, 2022, 05:56:48 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.agreed
Post by: Risso on May 07, 2022, 05:57:24 PM
Yeah I didn’t detect any kind of agenda either
Nonsense, there has been a clear and obvious agenda from a small but very vocal minority on here.
Post by: charlatan on May 07, 2022, 05:59:05 PM
Post by: john e on May 07, 2022, 06:12:28 PM
As for agendas so what
If people don’t like him fair enough
I hated every minute Steve Bruce was in charge from the very day step through the door I had an agenda against him so I’m not going to criticise those who feel the same way about Gerrard
It’s a free world people can like and not like whoever they want
Post by: Beard82 on May 07, 2022, 06:14:32 PM
I think he has shown a lot of ability to learn with these last few games plus those in the 3 games with Southampton and Leeds and Brighton
Think he might just make a good manager for us
Post by: SoccerHQ on May 07, 2022, 06:26:32 PM
Was worried he was just going to stubbornly stick to one system and a core group of players.
Post by: Beard82 on May 07, 2022, 06:28:15 PM
I got on board pretty early with Gerrard but I don’t back him unequivocallyExactly - virtually every management reign ends in failure - for most managers in ten PL there 7 or 8 game run away from being scaled or being the next England manager
As for agendas so what
If people don’t like him fair enough
I hated every minute Steve Bruce was in charge from the very day step through the door I had an agenda against him so I’m not going to criticise those who feel the same way about Gerrard
It’s a free world people can like and not like whoever they want
I think agenda is a strong word - people rate attributes others don’t - and virtually everyone is wanting hats best for the club
Post by: Villafirst on May 07, 2022, 06:36:57 PM
Post by: Mister E on May 07, 2022, 06:56:01 PM
Beating relegation threatened sides we shouldn't get carried away.Well, yes but ...
There are signs of quality at times since he's been in charge as well as signs of not so much.
Will have too see how summer goes and look forward to the new season.
... I was surprised today to evidence the commitment that the Villa team showed. I was expecting a Burnley onslaught, but we didn't let them build any momentum. Today's may not have been the battle of the titans but it showed me something new about this squad.
Post by: Beard82 on May 07, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
Agreed and the SG and his teamBeating relegation threatened sides we shouldn't get carried away.Well, yes but ...
There are signs of quality at times since he's been in charge as well as signs of not so much.
Will have too see how summer goes and look forward to the new season.
... I was surprised today to evidence the commitment that the Villa team showed. I was expecting a Burnley onslaught, but we didn't let them build any momentum. Today's may not have been the battle of the titans but it showed me something new about this squad.
Deserve credit for it
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 07, 2022, 07:01:35 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.
Agreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.
Post by: gpbarr on May 07, 2022, 07:14:58 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.As happened when Smith went 5 games without a point.
The “agenda” bullshit is hyperbolic nonsense but I guess it’s easier to criticize other fans than engage in the debate itselfAgreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.
Agreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:17:38 PM
Still, I never really thought there was much chance of him getting the push this soon barring a catastrophic season that sent us down, so hoping that the last couple of games are an indication that he's improving and that we can finish the season in decent style and look forward to doing much better next term.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 07, 2022, 07:23:35 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.As happened when Smith went 5 games without a point.
The “agenda” bullshit is hyperbolic nonsense but I guess it’s easier to criticize other fans than engage in the debate itselfAgreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.
Agreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.
In New York, New York, post's so good they quoted it twice. 8)
Post by: gpbarr on May 07, 2022, 07:24:27 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.As happened when Smith went 5 games without a point.
The “agenda” bullshit is hyperbolic nonsense but I guess it’s easier to criticize other fans than engage in the debate itselfAgreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.
Agreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.
In New York, New York, post's so good they quoted it twice. 8)
Bloody iPhone :)
Post by: Ads on May 07, 2022, 07:24:51 PM
Surprised that win hasn't brought more apologists out?
Still, Liverpool up next and a chance for more predetermined moaning.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:26:44 PM
Post by: Ads on May 07, 2022, 07:28:00 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on May 07, 2022, 07:29:05 PM
Enjoy the win. You're behaving a bit weird, like somebody has been slagging off your missus.Get his Mrs out of your mouth. :)
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:30:45 PM
Post by: Risso on May 07, 2022, 07:31:27 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:32:07 PM
Post by: Ads on May 07, 2022, 07:32:37 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:33:09 PM
Post by: gpbarr on May 07, 2022, 07:33:36 PM
"Lashing out"?! Deary me.
Accusing fans who disagree with your opinion as having a personal vendetta against Gerrard certainly qualifies
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:34:18 PM
Post by: Ads on May 07, 2022, 07:34:47 PM
Apologist for what? Are you arguing with yourself, now? The only person I've seen use that term is you.
You said you read this thread. I'm referring to a specific poster who appeared very annoyed we'd picked up a 0-0 at Leicester and made such comments.
Risso is right, there's an anti-Gerrard agenda from a select few. At least you admitted it.
Post by: Risso on May 07, 2022, 07:35:22 PM
"Lashing out"?! Deary me.
Accusing fans who disagree with your opinion as having a personal vendetta against Gerrard certainly qualifies
*shrugs*
I think most people can see it's true. No skin off my nose though if you disagree.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:36:26 PM
Tsk, if people don't stop replying before I can then I'm going to have to start using the quote button.
Post by: gpbarr on May 07, 2022, 07:36:42 PM
"Lashing out"?! Deary me.
Accusing fans who disagree with your opinion as having a personal vendetta against Gerrard certainly qualifies
*shrugs*
I think most people can see it's true. No skin off my nose though if you disagree.
Good. Then we can move on. Fans will disagree with one another - it’s not rocket science after all
Post by: Ads on May 07, 2022, 07:38:10 PM
Skimmed it. Assumed you were referring to me and didn't get what you meant. That'll be my agenda getting the better of me again. Never mind.
Tsk, if people don't stop replying before I can then I'm going to have to start using the quote button.
As long as your agenda doesn't make you sulk and leave the site again in protest, as I enjoy reading your stuff by and large.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 07:38:50 PM
Post by: Goldenballs on May 07, 2022, 07:38:59 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 07, 2022, 08:13:38 PM
Post by: danno on May 07, 2022, 08:38:56 PM
Post by: paul_e on May 07, 2022, 10:11:51 PM
For me that means a blank slate and at least 1 full pre-season before he can be properly judged (barring a complete disaster which hasn't happened. I'd be interested to hear why people like CD, SE, etc haven't gone the same way. our performances and results haven't been as good as we'd like but they've also not been terrible and would, over a season, mean pretty much treading water from last year which would be a decent outcome after the summer we had.
What would he need to achieve to win you over and, given the results he's acheived aren't enough for him to be sacked what are your reasons for disliking him right now?
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 07, 2022, 10:25:28 PM
Before he joined I didn't want Gerrard, I didn't think he was experienced enough. However as soon as he arrived that became a pointless concern and, unlike some other managers, there was no great body of work to judge him on and decide to just hope he didn't last long (like with McLeish and Bruce who were never going to bring success and had resumes to prove it).
For me that means a blank slate and at least 1 full pre-season before he can be properly judged (barring a complete disaster which hasn't happened. I'd be interested to hear why people like CD, SE, etc haven't gone the same way. our performances and results haven't been as good as we'd like but they've also not been terrible and would, over a season, mean pretty much treading water from last year which would be a decent outcome after the summer we had.
What would he need to achieve to win you over and, given the results he's acheived aren't enough for him to be sacked what are your reasons for disliking him right now?
I didn't want him for the same reasons as you.
I don't dislike him. I think he speaks very well and comes across as a decent fella.
He's done nothing to change my mind about him as a manager because he seems to want 'experienced' players rather than those with potential; his football is boring (I didn't see today's game, which sounded better than most of those he's been in charge for, but then the opponents are going down for a reason); he seems to be much more in thrall to Benitez rather than Klopp; he says that changes need to be made, and then makes no changes (not the case in the last couple, granted); his biggest achievement as a manager is outwitting Neil Lennon.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 10:33:28 PM
Would like to see us twat at least one of Liverpool or Man City and he might start to win me round, you never know.
Post by: gpbarr on May 07, 2022, 10:35:45 PM
I also don’t dislike him - I don’t know him so nothing to dislike. This is a football conversation.
Like SE, I have not seen anything (yet) to assuage my concerns.
But I admit I probably have not been as willing as others to give him the benefit of the doubt. I get emotional about my club - who doesn’t. I didn’t see the reason to sack Smith but that’s not a valid reason to want the new guy sacked too. It wasn’t Gerrards doing.
I really do hope I’m wrong ultimately about him. Nothing would make me happier than to have him lead us back into Europe and people say I told you so - better I eat humble pie than the alternate.
Post by: PhilVill on May 07, 2022, 10:42:51 PM
Post by: Allan C on May 07, 2022, 10:48:21 PM
I confess to an "agenda". I wanted the best possible manager for Aston Villa and there was no evidence whatsoever that Gerrard meets the description. Had he not had a successful playing career he would be nowhere near the Villa job.He was the best one available at the time who were likely to come to us.
Still, I never really thought there was much chance of him getting the push this soon barring a catastrophic season that sent us down, so hoping that the last couple of games are an indication that he's improving and that we can finish the season in decent style and look forward to doing much better next term.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 07, 2022, 10:50:06 PM
Post by: Allan C on May 07, 2022, 10:55:42 PM
I disagree, but can't be arsed to re-argue November.It’s fine to disagree, that’s the whole point of a forum such as this. But of the candidates on the list at the time, Gerrard was the best option IMO
Post by: eamonn on May 07, 2022, 10:57:21 PM
Post by: olaftab on May 07, 2022, 11:08:21 PM
The majority of posts on this thread today, before and after the game, have been Gerrard fans desperately lashing out at anyone who has the temerity to disagree with them.Yes totally turning Steve Brucesque whenever he won a game after his usual run of dross results.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 07, 2022, 11:12:16 PM
The majority of posts on this thread today, before and after the game, have been Gerrard fans desperately lashing out at anyone who has the temerity to disagree with them.Yes totally turning Steve Brucesque whenever he won a game after his usual run of dross results.
The mad few.
Post by: LeonW on May 07, 2022, 11:13:12 PM
Enjoy the win. You're behaving a bit weird, like somebody has been slagging off your missus.Get his Mrs out of your mouth. :)
That made me laugh.
Post by: olaftab on May 07, 2022, 11:14:04 PM
or four ;)Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.
Agreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 07, 2022, 11:16:48 PM
Post by: olaftab on May 07, 2022, 11:17:24 PM
...spouting lot of nonsense.The majority of posts on this thread today, before and after the game, have been Gerrard fans desperately lashing out at anyone who has the temerity to disagree with them.Yes totally turning Steve Brucesque whenever he won a game after his usual run of dross results.
The mad few.
Post by: LeonW on May 07, 2022, 11:21:24 PM
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 07, 2022, 11:25:29 PM
Post by: eamonn on May 07, 2022, 11:27:21 PM
Post by: Scott Nielsen on May 08, 2022, 05:21:56 AM
I've been quite conciliatory really.... by my standards.
You have actually :)
Post by: Scott Nielsen on May 08, 2022, 05:24:04 AM
I don’t really get the thing about Gerrard wanting to play dull football. When we’ve played well we’ve had played nice stuff. I get that when we’ve played poorly we haven’t been scintillating, but that’s hardly a shock.
Agreed. Not sure where the idea he prefers dull football comes from. I only ever see that particular criticism on here.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 08, 2022, 08:41:48 AM
I don’t really get the thing about Gerrard wanting to play dull football. When we’ve played well we’ve had played nice stuff. I get that when we’ve played poorly we haven’t been scintillating, but that’s hardly a shock.
Agreed. Not sure where the idea he prefers dull football comes from. I only ever see that particular criticism on here.
At times v Norwich it was humdrum and been other instances.
In fairness I would say it's mixed as there are times when it's tedium and some where nice interplay.
The possession thing of knocking it around would get the negative when the result isn't good otherwise one accepts it's part of the game plan for winning the game.
But there have been countless times where the ball has just been played around without purpose something that next season, when the philosophy is understood. This will hopefully not equate to an overall dullard viewing experience of our football team because at times the passing at the back and to midfield, or attempting to, has led to some chances from back to front but it was no surprise several instances when an actual longer ball by Mings for example would result in best chance or from open play.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 08, 2022, 08:47:12 AM
I think have to be fair because there really has been some slow and tedious play and at times lack of shots at goal or goals or chances from open play.
In time there hopefully be a consistency and more fluidity so next season is where really see what can be done.
Potential there to be very exciting but pragmatic and results focused. Gerrard has said before different ways of winning and winning ugly though I rather have a firm imprint of what the team wants to be doing and I guess that will come in time on a consistent basis with the players that fit SG strategies
Post by: john e on May 08, 2022, 12:06:18 PM
I don’t really get the thing about Gerrard wanting to play dull football. When we’ve played well we’ve had played nice stuff. I get that when we’ve played poorly we haven’t been scintillating, but that’s hardly a shock.
Agreed. Not sure where the idea he prefers dull football comes from. I only ever see that particular criticism on here.
He’s not been as cavalier as I thought he would be
I know that’s not everyone’s cup of tea anyway and they would like us to be more pragmatic
But take yesterday for instance three nil up Burnley’s heads have dropped out on their feet we could have gone for it and scored two or three more
But we chose to see the game out which is of course professional and pragmatic but you know I would’ve liked us to have gone for it more
That’s what I mean when I say I thought he would Have thrown a bit more caution to the wind
I’m not saying I’m disappointed it was a great result but I’ve always been a bit Full on Kevin Keegan For my sins
Post by: KevinGage on May 08, 2022, 12:38:58 PM
You can imagine Burnleh beforehand working on isolating Luiz at DM and waiting for the error, or getting in behind the two attacking full-backs. Seeing Chambers on the teamsheet prob had the same impact on them as it did on our match thread: is he playing in a back five or as a DM?
Nevermind the summer and getting spending a fuckton to get the players he wants to play the system he craves, he's has the resources NOW to do more of this sort of thing. And prob should have done it sooner, in fairness. It keeps the opposition honest and gives us more matchwinning scenarios.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 08, 2022, 12:41:09 PM
Post by: Axl Rose on May 08, 2022, 12:51:46 PM
Post by: john e on May 08, 2022, 12:55:47 PM
I liked the way we played against Man City second half. Swashbuckling!
That was the best half of football I’ve seen us play under Gerrard
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 08, 2022, 12:56:05 PM
Post by: Ger Regan on May 08, 2022, 12:57:23 PM
Post by: john e on May 08, 2022, 12:58:15 PM
I was away from football but I was told repeatedly in no uncertain terms we were brilliant first half v Spurs.
We were very good but very wasteful in front of goal
Post by: Risso on May 08, 2022, 01:00:20 PM
I liked the way we played against Man City second half. Swashbuckling!
And Spurs at home first half. Absolutely destroyed them without erm, actually scoring. I maintain the biggest problem is that like every team outside the top 6, we're just frighteningly inconsistent. We're capable of playing some scintillating football but also being deeply rubbish. I think most of that is down to the inherent inconsistenices of the players rather than being a result of any overriding footballing philosophy.
Look at Brighton as a comparison, they lost 6 in a row during which time they only scored one goal, with Brighton fans calling for Potter's head. Now they've won 4 out of 6, beating Spurs, Arsenal, Wolves and absolutely battering Man U. It's a funny old game.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 08, 2022, 01:01:17 PM
I was very dubious about him when first appointed, and while some of those doubts still remain, he deserves a full season to see what he can do. It hasn't been all plain sailing by any means, but there's been enough to give encouragementI'm in that position in the main. Not sure on a full season that has to depend on these remaining games and the first half of next season but certainly there's an intrigue for the summer and come new season we be of hope and encouragement.
Up the Villa
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 08, 2022, 01:03:37 PM
Yes couple of spurs friends told me if we had Son and Kane would have been 4-0 to us... By half time!I was away from football but I was told repeatedly in no uncertain terms we were brilliant first half v Spurs.
We were very good but very wasteful in front of goal
Post by: john e on May 08, 2022, 01:08:32 PM
Yes couple of spurs friends told me if we had Son and Kane would have been 4-0 to us... By half time!I was away from football but I was told repeatedly in no uncertain terms we were brilliant first half v Spurs.
We were very good but very wasteful in front of goal
Without a doubt
Post by: LeeB on May 08, 2022, 02:08:17 PM
Yes couple of spurs friends told me if we had Son and Kane would have been 4-0 to us... By half time!I was away from football but I was told repeatedly in no uncertain terms we were brilliant first half v Spurs.
We were very good but very wasteful in front of goal
Without a doubt
If the forwards we're swapped we'd have won about 8-0
Post by: TonyD on May 08, 2022, 02:15:16 PM
The difference is Potter in those 4 games has managed to beat top half teams.I liked the way we played against Man City second half. Swashbuckling!
And Spurs at home first half. Absolutely destroyed them without erm, actually scoring. I maintain the biggest problem is that like every team outside the top 6, we're just frighteningly inconsistent. We're capable of playing some scintillating football but also being deeply rubbish. I think most of that is down to the inherent inconsistenices of the players rather than being a result of any overriding footballing philosophy.
Look at Brighton as a comparison, they lost 6 in a row during which time they only scored one goal, with Brighton fans calling for Potter's head. Now they've won 4 out of 6, beating Spurs, Arsenal, Wolves and absolutely battering Man U. It's a funny old game.
Post by: LeeB on May 08, 2022, 02:16:06 PM
Post by: Risso on May 08, 2022, 02:40:43 PM
Post by: eamonn on May 08, 2022, 02:43:44 PM
Yes couple of spurs friends told me if we had Son and Kane would have been 4-0 to us... By half time!I was away from football but I was told repeatedly in no uncertain terms we were brilliant first half v Spurs.
We were very good but very wasteful in front of goal
Without a doubt
If the forwards we're swapped we'd have won about 8-0
Yeah but we love Ollie and Danny again now, right?
Post by: Richard E on May 08, 2022, 02:43:54 PM
Do you get bonus points for beating certain teams?
You should only get 2 points for beating Man U at the moment because it’s so easy.
Post by: SamTheMouse on May 08, 2022, 03:39:49 PM
Before he joined I didn't want Gerrard, I didn't think he was experienced enough. However as soon as he arrived that became a pointless concern and, unlike some other managers, there was no great body of work to judge him on and decide to just hope he didn't last long (like with McLeish and Bruce who were never going to bring success and had resumes to prove it).
For me that means a blank slate and at least 1 full pre-season before he can be properly judged (barring a complete disaster which hasn't happened. I'd be interested to hear why people like CD, SE, etc haven't gone the same way. our performances and results haven't been as good as we'd like but they've also not been terrible and would, over a season, mean pretty much treading water from last year which would be a decent outcome after the summer we had.
What would he need to achieve to win you over and, given the results he's acheived aren't enough for him to be sacked what are your reasons for disliking him right now?
I agree with every word of this.
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 08, 2022, 03:51:51 PM
I didn't want him sacked ditto.
I was whelmed when Gerrard got the job.
He's done okay so far.
I still think we could have appointed better.
I want him to be so successful he makes Ron Saunders look like Billy McNeill.
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 08, 2022, 03:52:04 PM
The difference is Potter in those 4 games has managed to beat top half teams.I liked the way we played against Man City second half. Swashbuckling!
And Spurs at home first half. Absolutely destroyed them without erm, actually scoring. I maintain the biggest problem is that like every team outside the top 6, we're just frighteningly inconsistent. We're capable of playing some scintillating football but also being deeply rubbish. I think most of that is down to the inherent inconsistenices of the players rather than being a result of any overriding footballing philosophy.
Look at Brighton as a comparison, they lost 6 in a row during which time they only scored one goal, with Brighton fans calling for Potter's head. Now they've won 4 out of 6, beating Spurs, Arsenal, Wolves and absolutely battering Man U. It's a funny old game.
Which means they must have lost to a lot of sides around them and below them. This whole beating the top six requirement is a red herring. We need to compete consistently against all teams we play against. We are where we are because we are inconsistent. But under Gerrard the overall form and points accumulated has been enough to see us a solid mid table side. We need to build from that so that against all teams next season and the top sides we are able to match and beat them when at our best.
Post by: clash city rocker on May 08, 2022, 06:17:05 PM
I wanted Dean Smith to succeed more than any other Villa manager ever, for reasons that are obvious to anyone who can remember back to what I wrote when he was appointed.
I didn't want him sacked ditto.
I was whelmed when Gerrard got the job.
He's done okay so far.
I still think we could have appointed better.
I want him to be so successful he makes Ron Saunders look like Billy McNeill.
Achieve that Dave and he will have gone beyond legendary status.
Post by: Drummond on May 08, 2022, 08:09:53 PM
Do you get bonus points for beating certain teams?
Are you happy if we don't beat the teams near the top? I think I know the answer. The reason I know the answer is that without beating them, we'll never join or overtake them.
Post by: Drummond on May 08, 2022, 08:16:01 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.
Agreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.
He didn't do anything to justify the appointment in my view. (barring clearly doing a good interview and probably telling Purslow he could get Coutinho).
His results/performances haven't been good enough and you have said similar yourself. They are improving so people will get off his case; it was ever thus.
I never wanted him, and barring giving some good interviews and carrying himself well the majority of the time, I'm still not convinced. But he has the job and deserves a chance.
Post by: Risso on May 08, 2022, 08:21:27 PM
Do you get bonus points for beating certain teams?
Are you happy if we don't beat the teams near the top? I think I know the answer. The reason I know the answer is that without beating them, we'll never join or overtake them.
I want us to win every game we play, but I think it's largely irrelevant this season given the circumstances. And if you gave me a choice between beating Palace and Liverpool, I'd choose beating Palace over Liverpool, as that should mean we'd finish above them in the top half.
Post by: Beard82 on May 08, 2022, 08:28:56 PM
I wanted Dean Smith to succeed more than any other Villa manager ever, for reasons that are obvious to anyone who can remember back to what I wrote when he was appointed.This is a good summary, and where I am. The last 3 games have made a big difference to my perceptions. I think he has something about him and could do well.
I didn't want him sacked ditto.
I was whelmed when Gerrard got the job.
He's done okay so far.
I still think we could have appointed better.
I want him to be so successful he makes Ron Saunders look like Billy McNeill.
Like with Dean, everytime he turns down a bad run, I gain a bit of faith and hopefully now my worst fears for the summer wont be realised (i.e. trying to sign players after finishing 15th)
Post by: Lucky Eddie on May 08, 2022, 08:30:20 PM
Yep, just a ridiculous agenda that’s now been shown up for what it is.
Agreed, as evidenced by the unpalatable gusto with which people seem to pile onto him when we have an adverse result.
He didn't do anything to justify the appointment in my view. (barring clearly doing a good interview and probably telling Purslow he could get Coutinho).
His results/performances haven't been good enough and you have said similar yourself. They are improving so people will get off his case; it was ever thus.
I never wanted him, and barring giving some good interviews and carrying himself well the majority of the time, I'm still not convinced. But he has the job and deserves a chance.
I'm interested to ask who you would have appointed instead of him at that time?
Post by: Rory on May 09, 2022, 02:15:11 AM
Do you get bonus points for beating certain teams?
Are you happy if we don't beat the teams near the top? I think I know the answer. The reason I know the answer is that without beating them, we'll never join or overtake them.
I want us to win every game we play, but I think it's largely irrelevant this season given the circumstances. And if you gave me a choice between beating Palace and Liverpool, I'd choose beating Palace over Liverpool, as that should mean we'd finish above them in the top half.
Whilst I enjoy beating the top teams, I agree with Risso that, for now at least, it's most important that we beat the teams around and below us, not only to get the points but also to deprive them of the points.
As much as we'd like to think otherwise, it's not been two years since we avoided relegation on the last day. Our objective at the moment is still to consolidate and strengthen, and Gerrard - as much as I didn't want him at the time - is just about delivering that. Beating the Super League twats can come later.
Any poster is well within their rights to question if what we've seen so far suggests future success. I think he's done enough to deserve a summer and a thorough crack at next season, but what we've seen has been mixed, so I won't try to discredit anybody's opinion.
Post by: ROBBO on May 09, 2022, 04:26:51 AM
Post by: Drummond on May 09, 2022, 07:26:00 AM
Do you get bonus points for beating certain teams?
Are you happy if we don't beat the teams near the top? I think I know the answer. The reason I know the answer is that without beating them, we'll never join or overtake them.
I want us to win every game we play, but I think it's largely irrelevant this season given the circumstances. And if you gave me a choice between beating Palace and Liverpool, I'd choose beating Palace over Liverpool, as that should mean we'd finish above them in the top half.
It's a fair point.
I think I said before, though I can't remember when, that we started to have hope that we could go into every game with the chance of winning it; we'd not had that for a long time . I'd love to feel that again.
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 09, 2022, 07:29:42 AM
I think some of us are missing one of the reasons for his appointment. We are far more likely to attract top players to the club with him as manager, If as i suspect Coutinho signs on then it sends a signal that he has bought into Gerrards plan giving even more impetus. I'm not saying that he is or will be a great manager but without doubt his name gives the club greater exposure.
Isn't it insulting to the club to say that despite all the advantages we have - rich owners, big support, potential - we can only make decent signings because a former well-known player is our manager? It seems to go against everything we stand for.
Post by: ozzjim on May 09, 2022, 08:50:04 AM
Give him a summer. He will no doubt bring 4-5 very decent players in given his comments, then he can be judged next season. I would say the minimum target should be 60-65 points, which given our excruciating wasteful ways in front of goal much of this season shouldn't be out of reach. He's clearly sussed how to play the bottom half, now let's see if he can build a side to get some wins off the top half.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 09, 2022, 08:55:40 AM
Do you get bonus points for beating certain teams?
Are you happy if we don't beat the teams near the top? I think I know the answer. The reason I know the answer is that without beating them, we'll never join or overtake them.
I want us to win every game we play, but I think it's largely irrelevant this season given the circumstances. And if you gave me a choice between beating Palace and Liverpool, I'd choose beating Palace over Liverpool, as that should mean we'd finish above them in the top half.
If you're competing to win the league, qualify for Europe or beat the drop, it's important to beat the teams around you. But given that we aren't doing any of those, I'd rather get a famous victory or two, thanks. I'll remember the 7-2 and our win at Old Trafford long after I've forgotten where we finished in the league in the respective seasons (case in point, I've already forgotten where we finished year).
The record against teams near the top of the table is clearly a black mark against Gerrard at the moment. Hopefully it improves starting tomorrow.
That said, being greedy, it would be nice to get a first double against Crystal Palace since it burned down.
Post by: Risso on May 09, 2022, 09:02:28 AM
I think I said before, though I can't remember when, that we started to have hope that we could go into every game with the chance of winning it; we'd not had that for a long time . I'd love to feel that again.
I think we already have that to be fair, and to be even fairer I think we did under Smith as well to a certain extent. It's the inconsistency though that kills us, and so while I do think we can win any game, we can also play shit and lose. That's what we need to get rid of. Under Gerrard we played really well against Man City second half, were robbed in the cup against Man U, robbed in the away game at Liverpool, and should have gone in 4-0 up at home against Spurs. But then we were also dire against Watford and Newcastle. Overall though, I feel like we're moving in the right direction. Twatting Liverpool tomorrow would be very welcome.
Post by: exigo on May 09, 2022, 09:23:06 AM
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 09, 2022, 09:25:17 AM
We should have appointed Howe. 😉
Post by: boozey182 on May 09, 2022, 09:45:49 AM
Arguably the key to that was having a designated DM in there. Great that Gerrard has recognised this and made it happen, slightly worrying that it took so long as we've all known this was our problem. Hopefully in the summer we can address this properly - it is the most important signing we'll make (and should have made at least two years ago...)
Without wanting to speak for anyone else, I think the majority of us just wanted to see some promise and hope from performances and results before the end of the season. Losing 4 on the bounce is unnacceptable for Aston Villa - it's not good enough, and I think we have every right to question the manager when that happens. As Gerrard is a relatively inexperienced manager, every result carries a lot of weight when we're trying to determine whether he's any good or not. Two wins on the bouce, no matter who the opposition were, puts a couple of big ticks next to his name. That will change again if we lose the next four, though.
I think we all want to believe that he's the right man to take us forward next year, but with two pretty awful runs in his short spell as manager, people are always going to worry. The result and performance on Saturday was one of the best of the season, I thought, which is what we want to see. I don't think many of us are expecting to win tomorrow night, but I want to see us worry them a bit - let them walk off the pitch knowing that they've been in a real fight.
One of the big question marks over Gerrard is our results against the better teams - what an oportunity he has tomorrow night to put that right.
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 09, 2022, 12:11:39 PM
Fair enough... I don't think anyone can argue with those stats.
We should have appointed Howe. 😉
And that’s the thing about the “we should have hired someone better” argument. Often it’s a simple case of timing. If Eddie Howe had been appointment then Dean Smith would have been fired sooner. And I don’t even think Howe would have come anyway as he’d already had his head turned with the scope of the job at Newcastle. But that’s besides the point.
It’s always easy saying we could have done this or that. The right person has to be available at the right time isn’t that easy. We appointed a manager that has got his badges, coached at Liverpool and managed at Rangers to a title which wasn’t an easy job given where they had been. He might not work out but, like Arteta or Vieira or Lampard they are aspiring to be top managers in the game. Why not do that with us?
Post by: paul_e on May 09, 2022, 12:25:42 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 09, 2022, 12:36:29 PM
Can you imagine the breakdown on here if we'd signed Howe.
Precisely. Or David Moyes. Or conversely in some quarters the delight at Ragnick because he had experience. It’s not as easy as it’s made out.
Post by: Lucky Eddie on May 09, 2022, 12:59:11 PM
I think some of us are missing one of the reasons for his appointment. We are far more likely to attract top players to the club with him as manager, If as i suspect Coutinho signs on then it sends a signal that he has bought into Gerrards plan giving even more impetus. I'm not saying that he is or will be a great manager but without doubt his name gives the club greater exposure.
Isn't it insulting to the club to say that despite all the advantages we have - rich owners, big support, potential - we can only make decent signings because a former well-known player is our manager? It seems to go against everything we stand for.
Whilst that may resonate to a man my age, to a twenty year old footballer we are a recently promoted club who have never played in the Champions League.
Post by: LeeB on May 09, 2022, 01:00:39 PM
Can you imagine the breakdown on here if we'd signed Howe.
Without any evidence to the support the claim, I reckon Howe would be one of those that doesn't get us and would've turned his nose up at us thinking he's better than us.
Post by: chrisw1 on May 09, 2022, 01:04:50 PM
He would have bitten our hands off if the offer came before the Newcastle one. He was entirely in the wilderness and a club like ours was more than he could have dreamed of - he hardly had teams kicking his door down. He's very lucky Newcastle made such a modest, and as it turns out sensible, choice. And to be fair to him he's done brilliantly and probably earned himself a longer stay at Newcastle than many would have expected.Can you imagine the breakdown on here if we'd signed Howe.
Without any evidence to the support the claim, I reckon Howe would be one of those that doesn't get us and would've turned his nose up at us thinking he's better than us.
Post by: Chris Smith on May 09, 2022, 01:11:41 PM
Can you imagine the breakdown on here if we'd signed Howe.
Precisely. Or David Moyes. Or conversely in some quarters the delight at Ragnick because he had experience. It’s not as easy as it’s made out.
Pretty much every manager we appoint divides opinion, arguing about them is what keeps this site going. It’s likely that 2-3 years down the line we’ll be debating it again but a few people will have switch sides.
Post by: Risso on May 09, 2022, 01:12:26 PM
Can you imagine the breakdown on here if we'd signed Howe.
Indeed. I don't think anybody would have really wanted him, and it would have been a case of "Done no more than Dean Smith, got Bournemouth relegated despite spending a load of money etc".
Post by: paul_e on May 09, 2022, 01:14:55 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 09, 2022, 01:33:58 PM
Post by: RamboandBruno on May 09, 2022, 01:36:03 PM
I don't mthink he'd have turned his nose up at us but I do think our fans would've been massively disappointed given who he was replacing. Newcastle was a bit of a free hit because, in their eyes, he couldn't be worse than they had. Add on the massive budget and he was always going to come out of this season looking good. How they get on in the summer will be interesting though because aside from Guimaraes the rest of his signings have been very MON-like safe and steady but limited.
Howe at Newcastle now has a very Mark Hughes in the early days of this man city project, feel to it. He has done very well, but i tend to think if come xmas/new year there hanging about in mid table and well off the European spots, they’ll hook him.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 09, 2022, 01:38:04 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 09, 2022, 01:44:17 PM
I wouldn't be amazed if they punt him this summer, even though he has done a brilliant job.If they'd just survived I think you would have been right. I'd be shocked f they did now though. I agree with Ramno though, I don't expect them to be particulalrly patient.
Post by: olaftab on May 09, 2022, 01:45:36 PM
League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
Post by: chrisw1 on May 09, 2022, 01:47:37 PM
Well there is. Half a season to be precise. Or almost a full 12 months if you want to look at it that way.League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
Post by: ROBBO on May 09, 2022, 01:48:16 PM
I think some of us are missing one of the reasons for his appointment. We are far more likely to attract top players to the club with him as manager, If as i suspect Coutinho signs on then it sends a signal that he has bought into Gerrards plan giving even more impetus. I'm not saying that he is or will be a great manager but without doubt his name gives the club greater exposuI think some of us are missing one of the reasons for his appointment. We are far more likely to attract top players to the club with him as manager, If as i suspect Coutinho signs on then it sends a signal that he has bought into Gerrards plan
giving even more impetus. I'm not saying that he is or will be a great manager but without doubt his name gives the club greater exposure.
Isn't it insulting to the club to say that despite all the advantages we have - rich owners, big support, potential - we can only make decent signings because a former well-known player is our manager? It seems to go against everything we stand for.
Isn't it insulting to the club to say that despite all the advantages we have - rich owners, big support, potential - we can only make decent signings because a former well-known player is our manager? It seems to go against everything we stand for.
I don't see it that way, while we celebrate our history it means nothing to young players looking for medals and glory.
Post by: olaftab on May 09, 2022, 01:49:58 PM
I think some of us are missing one of the reasons for his appointment. We are far more likely to attract top players to the club with him as manager, If as i suspect Coutinho signs on then it sends a signal that he has bought into Gerrards plan giving even more impetus. I'm not saying that he is or will be a great manager but without doubt his name gives the club greater exposure.errr...NO. This makes us the Club sound small time. Coutinho is an error state. The guy had hardly played any football for the best part of two years and needed to go somewhere where he could play every week in order to cement his place in the Brazilian world cup squad. Quite simply he found a willing friend.
Post by: Villan82 on May 09, 2022, 01:51:09 PM
League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
We averaged less than a point a game under Smith and lost 7 of our 11 games. We also were very poor through the calendar year. But, whatever.
Post by: MattW on May 09, 2022, 02:01:38 PM
League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
Strong disagree. We looked entirely bereft in the Southampton loss. The players looked disillusioned. It was difficult to envisage the next win, let alone 10.
Check out the starting XI, bench and subs in that Southampton game. We were listing badly.
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 09, 2022, 02:15:29 PM
I think some of us are missing one of the reasons for his appointment. We are far more likely to attract top players to the club with him as manager, If as i suspect Coutinho signs on then it sends a signal that he has bought into Gerrards plan giving even more impetus. I'm not saying that he is or will be a great manager but without doubt his name gives the club greater exposuI think some of us are missing one of the reasons for his appointment. We are far more likely to attract top players to the club with him as manager, If as i suspect Coutinho signs on then it sends a signal that he has bought into Gerrards plan
giving even more impetus. I'm not saying that he is or will be a great manager but without doubt his name gives the club greater exposure.
Isn't it insulting to the club to say that despite all the advantages we have - rich owners, big support, potential - we can only make decent signings because a former well-known player is our manager? It seems to go against everything we stand for.
Isn't it insulting to the club to say that despite all the advantages we have - rich owners, big support, potential - we can only make decent signings because a former well-known player is our manager? It seems to go against everything we stand for.
I don't see it that way, while we celebrate our history it means nothing to young players looking for medals and glory.
And they're going to get that because our manager is well-known?
Post by: Smithy on May 09, 2022, 02:17:18 PM
League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith WOULD have achieved similar results. And I say that as someone who didn't want him sacked at the time, and who STILL holds a romantic notion that he could have turned it around. Yes, he could well have turned it around. He might have done so. I actually still think if we'd held on against Wolves when 2-0 up with ten minutes to go, he'd still be our manager today - BUT, after that defeat, we too often looked like a broken side. Something wasn't right. Something had to change. I didn't want it to, but I reluctantly admit it had to.
Gerrard wasn't my first choice - far from it - but our points per game is almost 40% better since he joined, and though we haven't had any of the 'stand-out' memory-making results we got under Dean (yet), he has probably just about met my expectations so far (which were pretty low to be fair).
All that said, he has my 100% backing for the summer transfer window, and into next season. If we reach Christmas and still look no better than a club battling for a top half finish, then it might be time to ask questions. But not yet.
As for the "high profile managers attracting the players" stuff, I don't take that personally - it's always been the way of things. It's nothing new. Reputations DO count for something. I don't take it as a slight on the club at all. It's no different to having good high-profile players, other good players want to play with them. If having Gerrard makes it even a tiny bit easier to attract top talent, then great.
Post by: coreyfeldman on May 09, 2022, 02:20:30 PM
League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
League tables are superfluous? Given how shite we've been for 25 years I might get on this train.
Post by: eamonn on May 09, 2022, 02:25:44 PM
Post by: Risso on May 09, 2022, 02:28:13 PM
And they're going to get that because our manager is well-known?
I don't think there's any one factor that makes a player want to sign. Money, contract length, chance to win something, international ambitions, style of football, who the manager is, where the club is geographically, likely playing time are all some of the factors that a potential transfer target will take into consideration, and those factors' relative importance will differ from player to player. Gerrard's profile will be a potential factor to some players, but that will only last so long. If it helps sign players like Coutinho in the short term though, it's hardly a bad thing.
Post by: ChicagoLion on May 09, 2022, 02:40:44 PM
The problem is that most Agents are focused on money.
And they're going to get that because our manager is well-known?
I don't think there's any one factor that makes a player want to sign. Money, contract length, chance to win something, international ambitions, style of football, who the manager is, where the club is geographically, likely playing time are all some of the factors that a potential transfer target will take into consideration, and those factors' relative importance will differ from player to player. Gerrard's profile will be a potential factor to some players, but that will only last so long. If it helps sign players like Coutinho in the short term though, it's hardly a bad thing.
Post by: Smithy on May 09, 2022, 02:49:30 PM
Deano's games in charge this season were harder than Gerrard's so it's not a fair comparison.
I thought that too, from memory and gut feel, but Dean's 10 games were against the sides now placed:
12th
13th
19th
6th
16th
3rd
7th
4th
8th
5th
That's an average league position of 9.3. Just 0.7 places harder than 'average' over those 10 games. Yes, the five-game losing run was tough, given it was against five of the top 8, but if we'd done better in the previous five, I suspect he'd still be here. Also, Gerrard gets to play the runaway top two twice each in his 28 games (and I suspect he'll lose all four btw).
Post by: Chris Smith on May 09, 2022, 03:14:52 PM
Gerrard will be judged on how his team perform from August onwards. He’ll have his own players in and the opportunity to get his ideas across during pre-season. On evidence to date I couldn’t guess one way or the other how that will pan out.
Post by: Chris Smith on May 09, 2022, 03:19:22 PM
Deano's games in charge this season were harder than Gerrard's so it's not a fair comparison.
I thought that too, from memory and gut feel, but Dean's 10 games were against the sides now placed:
12th
13th
19th
6th
16th
3rd
7th
4th
8th
5th
That's an average league position of 9.3. Just 0.7 places harder than 'average' over those 10 games. Yes, the five-game losing run was tough, given it was against five of the top 8, but if we'd done better in the previous five, I suspect he'd still be here. Also, Gerrard gets to play the runaway top two twice each in his 28 games (and I suspect he'll lose all four btw).
I’ve been thinking about the recently and I have a suspicion that it was always in the owners long term thinking to install a more high profile manager once we had established ourselves. The poor run of results just gave them the opportunity to implement their plan.
Post by: Drummond on May 09, 2022, 03:23:38 PM
As for the 'what if' scenario, it's pointless because we'll never actually know. Gerrard needs support and a couple of players (as did Smith) such as the fabled Defensive Midfielder (or two), and I think with the players we have, we should be doing better. It's a big jump to the top 6 places, but that's where we should be aiming.
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 09, 2022, 03:54:16 PM
Deano's games in charge this season were harder than Gerrard's so it's not a fair comparison.
I thought that too, from memory and gut feel, but Dean's 10 games were against the sides now placed:
12th
13th
19th
6th
16th
3rd
7th
4th
8th
5th
That's an average league position of 9.3. Just 0.7 places harder than 'average' over those 10 games. Yes, the five-game losing run was tough, given it was against five of the top 8, but if we'd done better in the previous five, I suspect he'd still be here. Also, Gerrard gets to play the runaway top two twice each in his 28 games (and I suspect he'll lose all four btw).
I’ve been thinking about the recently and I have a suspicion that it was always in the owners long term thinking to install a more high profile manager once we had established ourselves. The poor run of results just gave them the opportunity to implement their plan.
I'm convinced they wanted to get rid first opportunity they had.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 09, 2022, 04:06:49 PM
Deano's games in charge this season were harder than Gerrard's so it's not a fair comparison.
I thought that too, from memory and gut feel, but Dean's 10 games were against the sides now placed:
12th
13th
19th
6th
16th
3rd
7th
4th
8th
5th
That's an average league position of 9.3. Just 0.7 places harder than 'average' over those 10 games. Yes, the five-game losing run was tough, given it was against five of the top 8, but if we'd done better in the previous five, I suspect he'd still be here. Also, Gerrard gets to play the runaway top two twice each in his 28 games (and I suspect he'll lose all four btw).
I’ve been thinking about the recently and I have a suspicion that it was always in the owners long term thinking to install a more high profile manager once we had established ourselves. The poor run of results just gave them the opportunity to implement their plan.
I'm convinced they wanted to get rid first opportunity they had.
I always thought Purslow came across as underwhelmed at the end of last season
Post by: olaftab on May 09, 2022, 04:08:31 PM
Yes selected games League tables are and so is stating that another manager would not have got similar or better results.League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
League tables are superfluous? Given how shite we've been for 25 years I might get on this train.
Post by: paul_e on May 09, 2022, 04:17:23 PM
Yes selected games League tables are and so is stating that another manager would not have got similar or better results.League table since Gerrard took over. Ninth.This is a totally superfluous and tiresome stat. There is nothing to suggest Dean Smith would not have achieved similar results.
AVFC Statto link on twitter (https://twitter.com/AVFCStatto/status/1523351212569300992).
League tables are superfluous? Given how shite we've been for 25 years I might get on this train.
No one is doing that though really. People are saying that the results that Gerrard actually got are in line with meeting our goals for this season (most people on here were happy with consoilidating midtable once Grealish left) which is clearly good enough for us to back him in the summer and is an improvement on where he found us.
Post by: brian green on May 09, 2022, 04:19:23 PM
Post by: LeonW on May 09, 2022, 05:09:39 PM
Deano's games in charge this season were harder than Gerrard's so it's not a fair comparison.
I thought that too, from memory and gut feel, but Dean's 10 games were against the sides now placed:
12th
13th
19th
6th
16th
3rd
7th
4th
8th
5th
That's an average league position of 9.3. Just 0.7 places harder than 'average' over those 10 games. Yes, the five-game losing run was tough, given it was against five of the top 8, but if we'd done better in the previous five, I suspect he'd still be here. Also, Gerrard gets to play the runaway top two twice each in his 28 games (and I suspect he'll lose all four btw).
I’ve been thinking about the recently and I have a suspicion that it was always in the owners long term thinking to install a more high profile manager once we had established ourselves. The poor run of results just gave them the opportunity to implement their plan.
I'm convinced they wanted to get rid first opportunity they had.
He certainly wasn’t their first choice originally. Thank goodness the managerial duo of T.Henry and J.Terry didn’t happen.
Post by: Beard82 on May 09, 2022, 05:26:42 PM
I think they had already made up there mind he wasnt going to be the long term manager, and I think the SG has been on their minds for a while. And I think the wolves game, when Eden was there, probably spead the process up.Deano's games in charge this season were harder than Gerrard's so it's not a fair comparison.
I thought that too, from memory and gut feel, but Dean's 10 games were against the sides now placed:
12th
13th
19th
6th
16th
3rd
7th
4th
8th
5th
That's an average league position of 9.3. Just 0.7 places harder than 'average' over those 10 games. Yes, the five-game losing run was tough, given it was against five of the top 8, but if we'd done better in the previous five, I suspect he'd still be here. Also, Gerrard gets to play the runaway top two twice each in his 28 games (and I suspect he'll lose all four btw).
I’ve been thinking about the recently and I have a suspicion that it was always in the owners long term thinking to install a more high profile manager once we had established ourselves. The poor run of results just gave them the opportunity to implement their plan.
I'm convinced they wanted to get rid first opportunity they had.
He certainly wasn’t their first choice originally. Thank goodness the managerial duo of T.Henry and J.Terry didn’t happen.
I think a strong case could be made from him to go or stay - hence why we are still having the conversation 6 months later, but I agree that they dont think he fitted in with their long term plans
It will be interesting to see this summer how the business is conducted - we seem to have a habit of making ridiclous low / offensive offers for some of our targets, I wasnt sure if some of that was keeping their powder dry cos they werent convinced in Smith
Post by: Beard82 on May 09, 2022, 05:30:30 PM
We were an average PL team last season. We are an average PL team this season. Comparing minutiae of decimal points per game are fairly meaningless given the number of variables in play.I think this is a good summary. In the last three games for SG have been big - as I think it could have been a bad look to get drawn into the relegation battle.
Gerrard will be judged on how his team perform from August onwards. He’ll have his own players in and the opportunity to get his ideas across during pre-season. On evidence to date I couldn’t guess one way or the other how that will pan out.
And as you say - I have no idea how this will pan out
Post by: eamonn on May 09, 2022, 05:33:34 PM
Post by: Beard82 on May 09, 2022, 05:34:53 PM
They could have sacked Smith during Lockdown too though - that defeat at Leicester must surely have tested their patience given we looked like we were in serious trouble.I think if it hadnt been for lockdown he would have gone - I think they decided it was better to let him work (remotely) with the players, than try and get a new manager doing it (who I believe would have been Dyche)
Post by: rougegorge on May 09, 2022, 05:35:12 PM
They could have sacked Smith during Lockdown too though - that defeat at Leicester must surely have tested their patience given we looked like we were in serious trouble.Yes in some respects, lockdown rescued him.
We'll never know if Smith would've done better than, as well as, or worse than Gerrard, but I think it was probably the right time to change rather than wait and see for a bit longer or after January if the owners were necessarily set on a change this season. Given the parameters, I don't think that Gerrard was a particularly unimaginative choice though.
I know Norwich were always going to struggle, but some fans I know are not impressed with Smith, and in general there is not much support for him even if it can't be all his fault.
It will be interesting to see if he can get the upswing on the yo-yo next season.
Post by: mike on May 09, 2022, 05:45:26 PM
Post by: olaftab on May 09, 2022, 05:53:57 PM
No one is doing that though really. People are saying that the results that Gerrard actually got are in line with meeting our goals for this season (most people on here were happy with consoilidating midtable once Grealish left) which is clearly good enough for us to back him in the summer and is an improvement on where he found us.Consolidating mid-table with Grealish gone and summer additions was a reasonable aim however we added to the squad in January with major signings and not seen the expected improvement.
Post by: Holy Trinity on May 09, 2022, 06:31:01 PM
No one is doing that though really. People are saying that the results that Gerrard actually got are in line with meeting our goals for this season (most people on here were happy with consoilidating midtable once Grealish left) which is clearly good enough for us to back him in the summer and is an improvement on where he found us.Consolidating mid-table with Grealish gone and summer additions was a reasonable aim however we added to the squad in January with major signings and not seen the expected improvement.
I'm sorry but what expected improvement were you expecting? A 29 year old who hadn't played much football in 2 years on loan. All be it a very talented player.
A free transfer in chamber
Digne to compete with Targett who asked to leave apparently so that squad depth plan didn't exactly pan out.
Back up keeper in olsen.
I didnt really expect these to all of a sudden catapult us up the table. We are probably 4 points off where I thought we would be at this point in the season with the squad we have now.
I expected us to be battling for 8th before the start of the season and before jack left. After Jack left I was hoping for 12th and not to get sucked into a relegation battle.
After signing Coutinho I again expected to battle for 8th so back to my original point. If we had 4 points extra and were sat in 9th with a game In hand on wolves that to me would have been the good season. So 1 win and 1 draw away from where I would be happy.
Is it entirely unreasonable to assume Gerrad would have gotten an extra 4 points from Dean's first 11 games? Cant we just get through this season and fully get behind the team next season.
Also in before we get slaughtered at Villa Park tomorrow and everyone starts accusing him of playing to lose.
For what it's worth I also think we will beat city on the final day and hand Liverpool the title just for the sheer hilarity of it.
Have a pleasant evening all
Post by: RamboandBruno on May 09, 2022, 06:35:42 PM
As has been said before, I don't think it was the five losses on the bounce that got him sacked, but the average over the last 40 or so games. I thought he was a lovely man and gets many loyalty points for being a Villa man, but in the end, if he had confidence in his own ability he would have turned Norwich down and held out for something better. I think in his heart of hearts he knows he's a manager for a good Championship/bottom third PL team.
Without going over old ground too much again, this is unfair to Smith. He could of gone before lockdown, but also got us to a cup final that season. He then led us to 11th, playing some of the best football in a generation. This for me is no mean feat in our second year back up, you only have to look at Leeds to see what a top job Deano did.
Saying all of that his record from January to November 2021 was very average at best and towards the end, whether it was just perception rather than reality, everything seemed a bit chaotic, team selection, singling out Mings by dropping him, notes passed round the pitch. I was glad he went before the holte end turned as he didn’t deserve that.
I think there is probably some truth in the owners wanting a high profile manager from the start and the fact Deano lasted 3 years is a testament to how well he did.
Those days are gone now and for my mind Gerrards playing career means nowt to me. He’s our manager and deserves the same leeway as Smith. Gerrards in his 7th month, which relatively is no time, its been really up and down, when good very good (Southampton, Leeds), when bad pretty awful (Watford and Arsenal at home), but then Smiths time was littered with inconsistencies like this.
I would like to see Gerrards team with a couple of his signings, a new CDM, keep Coutinhio, maybe another CB, and a full pre season and then judge him on next year. Patience needed.
My guess is though that we lose badly tomorrow and the anti Gerrard stuff will be out in force again.
Post by: chrisw1 on May 09, 2022, 07:35:24 PM
Post by: Beard82 on May 09, 2022, 07:57:14 PM
It's a bit odd having two Gerrard threads now - this one is clearly pretty defunct until at least October I'd guess. Is it worth merging or locking one?Surely if we dont win by 5 goals tomorrow we'll be wanting him out again
Post by: Clive W on May 09, 2022, 08:06:46 PM
It will have to be a clean sheetIt's a bit odd having two Gerrard threads now - this one is clearly pretty defunct until at least October I'd guess. Is it worth merging or locking one?Surely if we dont win by 5 goals tomorrow we'll be wanting him out again
So 7-2 and he will be gone by the morning
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 09, 2022, 09:35:23 PM
We've very unpredictable / inconsistent call it what you willIt will have to be a clean sheetIt's a bit odd having two Gerrard threads now - this one is clearly pretty defunct until at least October I'd guess. Is it worth merging or locking one?Surely if we dont win by 5 goals tomorrow we'll be wanting him out again
So 7-2 and he will be gone by the morning
Conceivably could lose these next two v Liverpool and Palace and show poor performances or we could be displaying some encouraging signs so far too soon to close down the thread maybe at season's end
Against Liverpool away one of the most negative displays which I feel SG set out to make sure didn't get obliterated. And take a honourable 1-0 defeat when no offer of anything at all was shown
I believe no shots on target in the match which was a first for a very long time .No interest in competing that game .
Want to see a different Villa tomorrow one that will attack.
Post by: brontebilly on May 09, 2022, 10:20:35 PM
Deano's games in charge this season were harder than Gerrard's so it's not a fair comparison.
I thought that too, from memory and gut feel, but Dean's 10 games were against the sides now placed:
12th
13th
19th
6th
16th
3rd
7th
4th
8th
5th
That's an average league position of 9.3. Just 0.7 places harder than 'average' over those 10 games. Yes, the five-game losing run was tough, given it was against five of the top 8, but if we'd done better in the previous five, I suspect he'd still be here. Also, Gerrard gets to play the runaway top two twice each in his 28 games (and I suspect he'll lose all four btw).
I’ve been thinking about the recently and I have a suspicion that it was always in the owners long term thinking to install a more high profile manager once we had established ourselves. The poor run of results just gave them the opportunity to implement their plan.
I'm convinced they wanted to get rid first opportunity they had.
He certainly wasn’t their first choice originally. Thank goodness the managerial duo of T.Henry and J.Terry didn’t happen.
That would have been some circus.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 10, 2022, 01:24:03 PM
The Smith obsession is weird.
Anyway, much better last two games. I'd still like us to at least give Liverpool/Man City a decent run for their money before committing myself too much, but he's done his cause a lot of good in the last fortnight.
Yeah well we got that with Smith didn't we! 7-2 not again in our life time . Proud to be weird about such an obsession when gave us results, performances of gusto v Liverpool and cup finals against Man City
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 15, 2022, 03:24:38 PM
Think have to note this has happened a few times by Villa under SG yet people don't acknowledge it saying oh I don't see he boring.
Well there's no quality today and very uninspiring .
At least some hope now Ramsey has come on
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 15, 2022, 03:28:39 PM
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 15, 2022, 03:38:37 PM
Yes end of season but Gerrard does have a cautious pragmatic slant at times.
I certainly not looking forward to the approach next week Man City next Sunday and haven't to break down Burnley on Thursday won't be too much fun potentially
Will be more than pleased when season is over and can bring in required quality for SG system and have a better squad .
Optimism for that just tedious today generally. Good to have taken lead would like to have another and clean sheet.
Main thing is 3pts and will get us up the table.
Post by: Villan82 on May 15, 2022, 04:02:00 PM
Post by: Risso on May 15, 2022, 04:03:18 PM
Post by: eamonn on May 15, 2022, 04:29:01 PM
Gerrard has to find a way of making us more dangerous against teams that are well-drilled. Our home record and performance-levels since he took over is uninspiring.
Post by: ChicagoLion on May 15, 2022, 04:53:42 PM
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 15, 2022, 05:21:36 PM
He’s still not coming back, Footy.Must you persist with such drivel.
Deano got a good result today against a top 8 team but I'm only making that point as you pushed me.
Not here to talk about what went before where we made 55pts and 11th place and the solid matches however it's noted the respective records vs top half teams and top 6 teams under Gerry.
I'm all for Gerrard success if he can do the required game management and approach to win matches.
Next season is where we can see how well our progress is with a very hopeful transfer window coming and can have expectation to use his squad and give us a more progressive 90 minute experience on a consistent basis.
I need not mention Smith as there will be comparison it's also separate assessment of SG tenure so I think grossly unfair to keep these suggestions up maybe when season ends can stop saying he's not coming back because insult his good name and my posting
Up the Villa!
Post by: Dante Lavelli on May 15, 2022, 05:22:06 PM
It's a bit odd having two Gerrard threads now - this one is clearly pretty defunct until at least October I'd guess. Is it worth merging or locking one?
I agree. there’s nothing on here that couldn’t be on the other thread. Plus I don’t think anyone is genuinely calling for him to be sacked.
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 15, 2022, 05:30:04 PM
I cannot see a discernible improvement from Smith who deserved to go.
Got rid of a perfectly decent Left Back and blew £25m on an average replacement.
Continues to play two strikers that don’t work.
Makes changes too late.
Continually plays the same shit midfield despite blabbing on about making changes.
I'm all for a merger or a temp lock. Gerrard can be given time and will be given time so we can just get behind him over the summer and up to World Cup where we can re examine things if needs be.It's a bit odd having two Gerrard threads now - this one is clearly pretty defunct until at least October I'd guess. Is it worth merging or locking one?
I agree. there’s nothing on here that couldn’t be on the other thread. Plus I don’t think anyone is genuinely calling for him to be sacked.
But also if you look at the first post and opening of thread there was suggested reason and there are grounds to keep such open because there is still debate that he's just not going to progress us.
Post by: olaftab on May 15, 2022, 06:22:50 PM
Playing both Ings and Watkins ahead of Buendia, causes me to question his judgement.I hope he learns but... surely he has seen against Burnley, Liverpool and again today that when Buendia is in the team we are a very progressive team so why does he keeps starting games with the wrong formation?
Post by: ChicagoLion on May 15, 2022, 06:25:41 PM
It baffles me.Playing both Ings and Watkins ahead of Buendia, causes me to question his judgement.I hope he learns but... surely he has seen against Burnley, Liverpool and again today that when Buendia is in the team we are a very progressive team so why does he keeps starting games with the wrong formation?
Post by: Footy-Vill on May 15, 2022, 06:29:29 PM
Be wary of this. He'll keep talking to impress and he's very staged in my mind's eye because he's had a life time of being media trained to the hilt.
Something to keep eyes and ears on
Look and listen as he would say.
So when people say they like how he talks we'll ask yourself what is it you like and is it translating to anything other than what an MP would be spinning
Post by: ChicagoLion on May 15, 2022, 06:43:02 PM
Post by: London Villan on May 15, 2022, 06:48:00 PM
1. Defensive midfielder is key to all of the formations we can play. Getting the right one will be the making of him.
2. To balance that he’ll need pick two from Doug, SJM and JJ to play in midfield. Bye bye sanson.
3. Emi and Phil. Get point 1 right and he can play both. If not he has a big job in keeping the both happy.
4. Oli/Ings I’m not sure about either of them, particularly with SG’s wingless set-ups. I can see a benteke type player coming in, big, strong, can hold up the ball.
Big calls for a rookie premier league manager with +£100m to spend..
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on May 15, 2022, 06:52:26 PM
Post by: Ads on May 15, 2022, 07:12:14 PM
Post by: Legion on May 15, 2022, 07:14:13 PM