Gerrard In or Out?

[Risso]

I think the only games against the top 8 where we've been totally rubbish were Arsenal home and Wolves away. We gave Man City a really good game, and were utterly robbed by VAR with a dodgy penalty for Liverpool and us not being given one in return.  Man U we drew but could have won but for an uncharacteristic howler from Martinez. In the West Ham game we should have taken the lead had Ings put away the simplest of chances, and the last game against Spurs the first half was probably the best we've played all season. We were also cheated in the FA Cup game with Man U.

So I fully agree that our record against them is poor, but it's not like we've been played off the pitch either, other than in the Arsenal game which was dire, and Wolves which was almost as bad.

[Risso]

Anyone ever noticed that when a Villa manager is sacked the squad the new manager inherited is a mixture of crap or disjointed or both.  The same squad less someone who was special albeit had three months a season off that finished 11th.

Is the fact that that squad without Grealish had gained 10 points from 11 games not more relevant?

[Neil Hawkes]

Good post Boozey.

Manager = In game management - improvement required // Team selection - improvement required
Players = Concentrate until the final whistle goes // Take extra shooting practice during training

[Beard82]

Good post Bozey

[chrisw1]

The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors.  Even so, he should have done better.

Surely the first sentence makes the second sentence overly critical?

Possibly.  But there's more to it than missed chances and notwithstanding the almost freakish nature of the Spurs game I still think with the squad we have he should have done better.

I appreciate that, but still don't see how this equates to the manager not being fit for purpose.

Our strikers/forwards convert their chances, we win.
Individuals stop making critical errors, we don't lose.

Until certain players step up and perform as expected, we will continue to lose, despite what any manager says or does.

I didn't say he wasn't fit for purpose.  I said our performance since he joined has been dissapointing.  Yes we've missed some chances, but as I said there's more to it than that.  Several of our performaces just haven't been up to scratch.  Whether this is tactics, selection, motivation, fitness, lack of subs etc or a bit of all I'm not sure.  But it's the managers job to resolve this and he's seems to be struggling to do so.   

[LeeB]

I think the only games against the top 8 where we've been totally rubbish were Arsenal home and Wolves away. We gave Man City a really good game, and were utterly robbed by VAR with a dodgy penalty for Liverpool and us not being given one in return.  Man U we drew but could have won but for an uncharacteristic howler from Martinez. In the West Ham game we should have taken the lead had Ings put away the simplest of chances, and the last game against Spurs the first half was probably the best we've played all season. We were also cheated in the FA Cup game with Man U.

So I fully agree that our record against them is poor, but it's not like we've been played off the pitch either, other than in the Arsenal game which was dire, and Wolves which was almost as bad.

That's fair. As annoying as the Spurs game was we played as well as we have this season between the first and second goals

[boozey182]

The rule is:

Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.

Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door...  no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.

Watkins has had one decent season at this level playing alongside someone who made chances for fun in Grealish, jurys out after this year. I think Risso has pointed out before the idea of Ings being a 20 goal a season man every year is somewhat of an urban myth.
Again, Gerrards had 5 months, it isnt enough time to judge the way he’s being judged.

I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but how do you think we should be judging him?

I appreciate that there are mitigating circumstances to his tenure - he has only had one transfer window so far, and the squad is certainly disjointed which wasn't his doing. He got off to a brilliant start with three wins in four matches, which showed such promise, especially the freefall we seemed to be in before that run. I'm not sure how much weight we can put into New Manger Bounce - he got those wins out of a team that had been really struggling and he deserves a lot of credit. Looking at it now, that run probably saved us from any kind of relegation battle this season.

However, if you'd have told any of us after that Leicester win back in December that we would be 15th in April, I think most, if not all, of us would have been at best underwhelmed. (I appreciate the season isn't over yet and hopefully we can get amongst the proper midtable clubs before then, but it seems silly to judge him on things that haven't happened yet).

To my mind, despite the major shortcomings of the squad, there are more than 5 worse squads than ours in this league. I would argue that the minimum requirement of a manager is to get the squad performing to their capabilities, and I'm sure most on here would concede that Gerrard isn't doing that at the moment.

The other concerns about him seem to be: tactical inflexibility, our woeful record against teams in the top half, worrying deficiencies in every area of the pitch (apart from goalkeeper) and individual player performances dropping off.

It may well be too early to make major judgements about him, and he won't lose his job unless we manage to get even worse between now and the end of the season, but I think many of the concerns are justified. We can only judge him on what he has done so far, and it hasn't been very impressive. I think he has done the bare minimum to keep his job.

As a much more eloquent poster than me put it - I don't want him to get sacked, I just want him to get better.

It was always a risk that fans would turn on him sooner than previous managers though - as a fan base, we have never liked him, have we? I know, I know, that's all water under the bridge now, and if he had been a bit more successful, I'm sure everyone would love him unconditionally now. But it's not the same as managers like Little, Gregory, Smith and Taylor II is it? There was no long-standing goodwill there to keep him going through these poor runs.

He's a born winner though, right? I'm sure it doesn't matter what we think of him, whether we want him sacked or think we're lucky to have such a superstar as our manager. He'll either get it right with us, or turn up in a TV studio quite soon.

I think he should be judged as all managers should and your right, this season and this calendar year have largely been underwhelming and there are obvious concerns about his ability to motivate this group of players. I do just think the whole premise of this thread, e.g. some posters thinking he should be sacked, is questionable at the moment as its so early in his tenure. 
Your right he’s got far less credit in the bank than other managers and that is unfortunate for him but also for us as a club, as i think we need a bit of stability and not sure we need another round of sackings and new appointments just yet. I genuinely think 2 or 3 players could make a huge amount of difference to this team and he needs time to get those in.

I absolutely agree with you there, I think we are only 2 or 3 players away from being a really decent side. Unfortunately, they are probably the same 2 or 3 players that we needed last summer! And the summer before that...!

I don't think he's helped himself with the criticism with the players, just in terms of how the fans perceive him. He was really cool and composed when he first arrived, and I was really impressed. Lately, it's felt a bit like his criticism of the players has been there to deflect away from himself, and that's probably rubbed people up the wrong way. Again, fans have long memories, and some of these players have given fans some of the best moments in over a decade - not everyone is ready to turn on them.

A win on Saturday will change a lot. A couple more, including one against a decent team, and things look so much better, and all of the talk of him getting sacked will be forgotten. If we end up finishing 14-15th though, I don't think it will go away.

[Beard82]

The rule is:

Defence improve and make fewer mistakes, forwards score more goals.... manager takes credit.

Defence make mistakes, forwards who have pretty much always scored throughout their careers suddenly can't hit a barn door...  no blame can be attached to the manager, must be the players' fault.

Watkins has had one decent season at this level playing alongside someone who made chances for fun in Grealish, jurys out after this year. I think Risso has pointed out before the idea of Ings being a 20 goal a season man every year is somewhat of an urban myth.
Again, Gerrards had 5 months, it isnt enough time to judge the way he’s being judged.

I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but how do you think we should be judging him?

I appreciate that there are mitigating circumstances to his tenure - he has only had one transfer window so far, and the squad is certainly disjointed which wasn't his doing. He got off to a brilliant start with three wins in four matches, which showed such promise, especially the freefall we seemed to be in before that run. I'm not sure how much weight we can put into New Manger Bounce - he got those wins out of a team that had been really struggling and he deserves a lot of credit. Looking at it now, that run probably saved us from any kind of relegation battle this season.

However, if you'd have told any of us after that Leicester win back in December that we would be 15th in April, I think most, if not all, of us would have been at best underwhelmed. (I appreciate the season isn't over yet and hopefully we can get amongst the proper midtable clubs before then, but it seems silly to judge him on things that haven't happened yet).

To my mind, despite the major shortcomings of the squad, there are more than 5 worse squads than ours in this league. I would argue that the minimum requirement of a manager is to get the squad performing to their capabilities, and I'm sure most on here would concede that Gerrard isn't doing that at the moment.

The other concerns about him seem to be: tactical inflexibility, our woeful record against teams in the top half, worrying deficiencies in every area of the pitch (apart from goalkeeper) and individual player performances dropping off.

It may well be too early to make major judgements about him, and he won't lose his job unless we manage to get even worse between now and the end of the season, but I think many of the concerns are justified. We can only judge him on what he has done so far, and it hasn't been very impressive. I think he has done the bare minimum to keep his job.

As a much more eloquent poster than me put it - I don't want him to get sacked, I just want him to get better.

It was always a risk that fans would turn on him sooner than previous managers though - as a fan base, we have never liked him, have we? I know, I know, that's all water under the bridge now, and if he had been a bit more successful, I'm sure everyone would love him unconditionally now. But it's not the same as managers like Little, Gregory, Smith and Taylor II is it? There was no long-standing goodwill there to keep him going through these poor runs.

He's a born winner though, right? I'm sure it doesn't matter what we think of him, whether we want him sacked or think we're lucky to have such a superstar as our manager. He'll either get it right with us, or turn up in a TV studio quite soon.

I think he should be judged as all managers should and your right, this season and this calendar year have largely been underwhelming and there are obvious concerns about his ability to motivate this group of players. I do just think the whole premise of this thread, e.g. some posters thinking he should be sacked, is questionable at the moment as its so early in his tenure. 
Your right he’s got far less credit in the bank than other managers and that is unfortunate for him but also for us as a club, as i think we need a bit of stability and not sure we need another round of sackings and new appointments just yet. I genuinely think 2 or 3 players could make a huge amount of difference to this team and he needs time to get those in.

I absolutely agree with you there, I think we are only 2 or 3 players away from being a really decent side. Unfortunately, they are probably the same 2 or 3 players that we needed last summer! And the summer before that...!

I don't think he's helped himself with the criticism with the players, just in terms of how the fans perceive him. He was really cool and composed when he first arrived, and I was really impressed. Lately, it's felt a bit like his criticism of the players has been there to deflect away from himself, and that's probably rubbed people up the wrong way. Again, fans have long memories, and some of these players have given fans some of the best moments in over a decade - not everyone is ready to turn on them.

A win on Saturday will change a lot. A couple more, including one against a decent team, and things look so much better, and all of the talk of him getting sacked will be forgotten. If we end up finishing 14-15th though, I don't think it will go away.

I think hes communication etc is pretty spot on, apart from in the post match interviews, when we have lost he seems to say things he doesnt really mean.  I think he just really hates losing. 

Think that is where the criticsm has come, and it then means it looks stupid when he has calmed down and doesnt hold true to the things he said when he was pissed off.

[boozey182]

I think hes communication etc is pretty spot on, apart from in the post match interviews, when we have lost he seems to say things he doesnt really mean.  I think he just really hates losing. 

Think that is where the criticsm has come, and it then means it looks stupid when he has calmed down and doesnt hold true to the things he said when he was pissed off.

That's a really good point - and that sort of passion could be a great quality to have, but at the moment you're right. He just looks a little silly, and I don't think it is particularly good management.

He needs to harness that energy and put it somewhere positive. If he is going to lay in to the players, do it when fans, opposition managers and prospective buyers aren't listening.

He is great to watch when we win - that sort of arrogant calm and smug smile. Just wish we saw that a bit more often.

[Neil Hawkes]

The one thing I would say though is it's not entirely his fault that we've missed loads of sitters and conceded several goals through individual errors.  Even so, he should have done better.

Surely the first sentence makes the second sentence overly critical?

Possibly.  But there's more to it than missed chances and notwithstanding the almost freakish nature of the Spurs game I still think with the squad we have he should have done better.

I appreciate that, but still don't see how this equates to the manager not being fit for purpose.

Our strikers/forwards convert their chances, we win.
Individuals stop making critical errors, we don't lose.

Until certain players step up and perform as expected, we will continue to lose, despite what any manager says or does.

I didn't say he wasn't fit for purpose.  I said our performance since he joined has been dissapointing.  Yes we've missed some chances, but as I said there's more to it than that.  Several of our performaces just haven't been up to scratch.  Whether this is tactics, selection, motivation, fitness, lack of subs etc or a bit of all I'm not sure.  But it's the managers job to resolve this and he's seems to be struggling to do so.   

Thanks Chris.

[oldhill_avfc]

The problem is that things are getting worse rather than better.  Perhaps he would argue that nothing can be substantially improved without another transfer window but you have to question his tactics in regard to:-

(1) narrow forwards and full back playing high up the pitch - this is pushing McGinn and Ramsey further back - the second half vs Spurs that were effectively full backs.

(2) repeatedly trying to fit in Ings and Watkins

(3) Buendia being forced onto the bench after seeing a general improvement and seemingly getting up to speed

(4) continuously playing Luiz in the holding midfield role - if there are no other options (eg Iroegbunam) then why doesn't he try to alter the formation - perhaps 4-2-3-1 (with perhaps Sanson in the middle alonside Luiz?)

[Risso]

The problem is that things are getting worse rather than better.  Perhaps he would argue that nothing can be substantially improved without another transfer window but you have to question his tactics in regard to:-

(1) narrow forwards and full back playing high up the pitch - this is pushing McGinn and Ramsey further back - the second half vs Spurs that were effectively full backs.

(2) repeatedly trying to fit in Ings and Watkins

(3) Buendia being forced onto the bench after seeing a general improvement and seemingly getting up to speed

(4) continuously playing Luiz in the holding midfield role - if there are no other options (eg Iroegbunam) then why doesn't he try to alter the formation - perhaps 4-2-3-1 (with perhaps Sanson in the middle alonside Luiz?)

In my opinion
(1) I think the second half versus Spurs was entirely due to conceding the second goal so early on, it completely ruined the game plan we had.
(2) Agreed, he needs to stop doing this, it's my main criticism of him.
(3) He's a good player, but he doesn't affect games enough for all his good play. I'd still have him in instead of either Watkins or Ings though.
(4) Again, agreed, Luiz is mostly tidy on the ball but isn't remotely good enough in the DM role. I don't think 4-2-3-1 is the answer though, because when Luiz and McGinn played there they were mostly rubbish at it. Hopefully Marv will be back to do the donkey work soon.

[Beard82]

The problem is that things are getting worse rather than better.  Perhaps he would argue that nothing can be substantially improved without another transfer window but you have to question his tactics in regard to:-

(1) narrow forwards and full back playing high up the pitch - this is pushing McGinn and Ramsey further back - the second half vs Spurs that were effectively full backs.

(2) repeatedly trying to fit in Ings and Watkins

(3) Buendia being forced onto the bench after seeing a general improvement and seemingly getting up to speed

(4) continuously playing Luiz in the holding midfield role - if there are no other options (eg Iroegbunam) then why doesn't he try to alter the formation - perhaps 4-2-3-1 (with perhaps Sanson in the middle alonside Luiz?)

In my opinion
(1) I think the second half versus Spurs was entirely due to conceding the second goal so early on, it completely ruined the game plan we had.
(2) Agreed, he needs to stop doing this, it's my main criticism of him.
(3) He's a good player, but he doesn't affect games enough for all his good play. I'd still have him in instead of either Watkins or Ings though.
(4) Again, agreed, Luiz is mostly tidy on the ball but isn't remotely good enough in the DM role. I don't think 4-2-3-1 is the answer though, because when Luiz and McGinn played there they were mostly rubbish at it. Hopefully Marv will be back to do the donkey work soon.

I saw a stat and Beudia makes the second most chances of any player outside of the "Sky 6".

I do worry about 1 - that if we persist with this narrow formation - whether it is too easy to work out.  I also think it stops us from using the flanks effectively and gets ramsey and mcginn doing stuff there bad at.  When Marv is back will be the time to judge it I guess

[Bent Neilsens Screamer]

No pressure on Marvellous when he returns. Hopefully his limited play will see an upturn in the form of those around him.

[SaddVillan]

Of the current squad, only Digne, Chambers and Coutinho were signed by Gerrard. (Olsen is just a backup).

Gerrard has a clear vision of the players he wants in terms of fitness, athleticism and skill level - there's a minimum base level that he requires, added to a desire for self improvement - which he sees as a crucial part of a player's personality and character.

That's the basis, onto which he will coach shapes, formations and tactics.

Not sure that a huge number of the existing squad have shown enough of what he wants.

Gerrard's standards might be too much for some of our squad. Too used to an easy ride under Smith and they're not liking it?

Added to which, too many of them have been below par in terms of fitness all season. A consequence of a crap pre-season?

McGinn hinted at this last week - effectively stated that under Gerrard you either produce week in week out, or you're a goner.

No passengers.

Expect 60% of the current squad to have been moved out by the end of the 2023 Sumner transfer window.