Gerrard In or Out?

[Beard82]

Did anyone think we needed major surgery after our business last summer?

Yes, I voted 13-17 in the pre-season poll. We all despise Grealish so much we are collectively suppressing how incredibly influential he was for us. The ******.

I still thought we were onto something - I think the summer was a shambles and the start of season was riddled with injuries but personally I thought we needed one or two quality improvements - mainly in midfield, and left back which we have now down

I personally still think by and large that’s the case.  The players are out of form but I think we’ll struggle to get much better en mass.  3 top quality additions would make sense given the budget they have mentioned.

[LeeB]

It's in from me still.

The first goal was a piss poor header from Konsa, the more times I see it the worse it looks, however a proper DM would've been tracking with Kane and might have stoppe him getting the shot away. Luiz just doesn't have that instinct was was jogging a few yards behind Kane as the header was made.

2nd goal Konsa was brushed off too easily by Kane and then once Kulusevski is in the box none of our defenders were willing to go near him because we've been stung by soft penalties too many times. Again though a proper DM gets in front of Kane.

3rd goal is Konsa following Kane into the space where a DM should be and leaving far too much space for Son to run into.

4th looked like we'd given up by that point but we left far too much space at the edge of the box that one of the midfielders should've been occupying, again Luiz was just jogging back without a care in the world.

I think we were pretty clearly looking for a DM in January but, for whatever reason, we never managed to get one in and that has cost us massively. I'm happy for Gerrard to have another window to fix that problem but in the meantime i hope he follows through on the tough talk and drops Konsa and Luiz who played like they were already on the beach. They were definitely the biggest problem for me

I was watching from home, the wife was away with my Mom and hers and I stayed back with the kids (sorry Ads), and it was a total Konsa horror show.

Well it was until the 3rd goal at least, as I decided to stop making myself feel angry, turned it off and put the new Spiderman film on for us to watch instead.

[Smithy]

The current run is shocking, and yes, Smith got the sack after losing five on the bounce, but he got the sack because of our form over the 10 months of 2021 as a whole, those last five games were just the catalyst. Our 2021 form as a whole was relegation battle form.  And I say that as someone who didn't think he should be sacked at the time.

Gerrard's team are currently in a woeful run, having gone through a great run for three games prior.  Strangely, I feel much less bothered about the 4-0 loss to Spurs than I did for the 2-1 loss to Wolves, mainly because we played so badly against Wolves, but actually looked more than capable for 45 mins against Spurs.  Until that second went in at the start of the second half, I genuinely thought we could still win the game, such was our performance in the first half and the chances we could seemingly create at will.

Something needs to change, clearly. I don't know what it is (though I suspect the lack of DM in his preferred formation is a big part of it), but I don't think sacking the manager AGAIN is the way to deal with it.  He needs a pre-season, he needs to mould the squad to something more akin to how he wants to play, and if we reach his one-year anniversary and we look no better, then fair enough.  He'll have had two transfer windows and a pre-season by that point, so can have no excuses.

If we WERE to sack him, who do we get instead? It's not like there are top managers available and willing to join a club with no European football for at LEAST 15-16 months.

Short of us looking like relegation is a genuine threat, I don't like the idea of any manager getting less than a year, anything less is just a waste of everyone's time.

[paul_e]

It's in from me still.

The first goal was a piss poor header from Konsa, the more times I see it the worse it looks, however a proper DM would've been tracking with Kane and might have stoppe him getting the shot away. Luiz just doesn't have that instinct was was jogging a few yards behind Kane as the header was made.

2nd goal Konsa was brushed off too easily by Kane and then once Kulusevski is in the box none of our defenders were willing to go near him because we've been stung by soft penalties too many times. Again though a proper DM gets in front of Kane.

3rd goal is Konsa following Kane into the space where a DM should be and leaving far too much space for Son to run into.

4th looked like we'd given up by that point but we left far too much space at the edge of the box that one of the midfielders should've been occupying, again Luiz was just jogging back without a care in the world.

I think we were pretty clearly looking for a DM in January but, for whatever reason, we never managed to get one in and that has cost us massively. I'm happy for Gerrard to have another window to fix that problem but in the meantime i hope he follows through on the tough talk and drops Konsa and Luiz who played like they were already on the beach. They were definitely the biggest problem for me

I was watching from home, the wife was away with my Mom and hers and I stayed back with the kids (sorry Ads), and it was a total Konsa horror show.

Well it was until the 3rd goal at least, as I decided to stop making myself feel angry, turned it off and put the new Spiderman film on for us to watch instead.

It's easily the worst performance I've seen from Konsa for us, was at fault for the first 3 goals and they got through him 2-3 more times on top.

[brontebilly]

It's in from me still.

The first goal was a piss poor header from Konsa, the more times I see it the worse it looks, however a proper DM would've been tracking with Kane and might have stoppe him getting the shot away. Luiz just doesn't have that instinct was was jogging a few yards behind Kane as the header was made.

2nd goal Konsa was brushed off too easily by Kane and then once Kulusevski is in the box none of our defenders were willing to go near him because we've been stung by soft penalties too many times. Again though a proper DM gets in front of Kane.

3rd goal is Konsa following Kane into the space where a DM should be and leaving far too much space for Son to run into.

4th looked like we'd given up by that point but we left far too much space at the edge of the box that one of the midfielders should've been occupying, again Luiz was just jogging back without a care in the world.

I think we were pretty clearly looking for a DM in January but, for whatever reason, we never managed to get one in and that has cost us massively. I'm happy for Gerrard to have another window to fix that problem but in the meantime i hope he follows through on the tough talk and drops Konsa and Luiz who played like they were already on the beach. They were definitely the biggest problem for me

I thought Luiz was outstanding in the first half. Won the ball back constantly and got us playing forward.   But agreed on main point, Luiz/Konsa/Mings are not playing as a unit. Full backs not covering centre backs, centre backs playing like strangers. McGinn and Ramsey not doing enough to track runners from midfield either. We just look disorganised without the ball and that's back on Gerrard.

[paul_e]

The current run is shocking, and yes, Smith got the sack after losing five on the bounce, but he got the sack because of our form over the 10 months of 2021 as a whole, those last five games were just the catalyst. Our 2021 form as a whole was relegation battle form.  And I say that as someone who didn't think he should be sacked at the time.

Gerrard's team are currently in a woeful run, having gone through a great run for three games prior.  Strangely, I feel much less bothered about the 4-0 loss to Spurs than I did for the 2-1 loss to Wolves, mainly because we played so badly against Wolves, but actually looked more than capable for 45 mins against Spurs.  Until that second went in at the start of the second half, I genuinely thought we could still win the game, such was our performance in the first half and the chances we could seemingly create at will.

Something needs to change, clearly. I don't know what it is (though I suspect the lack of DM in his preferred formation is a big part of it), but I don't think sacking the manager AGAIN is the way to deal with it.  He needs a pre-season, he needs to mould the squad to something more akin to how he wants to play, and if we reach his one-year anniversary and we look no better, then fair enough.  He'll have had two transfer windows and a pre-season by that point, so can have no excuses.

If we WERE to sack him, who do we get instead? It's not like there are top managers available and willing to join a club with no European football for at LEAST 15-16 months.

Short of us looking like relegation is a genuine threat, I don't like the idea of any manager getting less than a year, anything less is just a waste of everyone's time.

Agreed, on top of that I'd say that that the last line applies to the whole of next season as well. We obviously have bigger ambitions than finishing mid-table but if we're safely in the 8-14 area of the table then there's no point sacking him unless there's a manager we really want available immediately. I agree with CD that the summer is a much better time to be looking but I just can't get behind sacking someone this soon when there are clearly still problems we need to address in the squad before we can say his style has failed.

[LeeB]

It was the Konsa from his first season, before lockdown, where I wasn't in the slightest bit convinced and felt he was too lightweight to be effective.

[Luke8]

I think I've said before, when trying to argue Smith, or various other managers 'in' that any team can get stuffed, we did it to Liverpool last season. However, right now we're looking like we are shot. I'm sure we won't go down, but 15th doesn't look impossible on current form.

I'd say one of the arguments in favour of Gerrard, is what has happened with Arteta at Arsenal. Disjointed and lacklustre at first and then really coming in to form. He had no experience as a mangmager either.

I agree with the general point, although I’m not really sure that we do ‘form’ this season. We pretty much seem to lose (and perform averagely to poor) against the top eight and beat (performing averagely to decently) against everyone else.

In fact, our record when you take out the current top eight is the best of the rest of the teams - it’s actually pretty similar to Wolves and West Ham, they have obviously both just beaten us twice and nicked a couple more points off the ‘top six’.

And, overall, I would say that is probably more or less on par with where we are as a squad. I think Gerrard could be doing a bit more with the squad, and certainly it shouldn’t be beyond him to be getting better performance against those top 8, but most of our players are probably of the level of an 8th-12th team in my opinion.

[paul_e]

I thought Luiz was outstanding in the first half. Won the ball back constantly and got us playing forward.   But agreed on main point, Luiz/Konsa/Mings are not playing as a unit. Full backs not covering centre backs, centre backs playing like strangers. McGinn and Ramsey not doing enough to track runners from midfield either. We just look disorganised without the ball and that's back on Gerrard.

Yeah, he did have a good first half (other than the first goal but the blame is mostly on Konsa there). 2nd haf was a horror show from him, nearly as poor as Konsa.

I think it's more than just them not playing as a unit though, I don't think they even see themselves as a unit. I don't agree with criticism of McGinn, Ramsey and Cash though, Ramsey and Cash were 2 of our better players all game and whilst McGinn had a poor 2nd half it wasn't about not tracking back, it was that he looked like he was fucked and needed to come off.

[boozey182]

We’re in quite a tricky situation at the moment. He certainly hasn’t done enough for universal backing - we’re on our second awful run since he took over, which just isn’t good enough.

There are mitigating factors, but the worse the results are, the more insignificant those start to look. Almost without exception, we have seen all of these players play better than they currently are - whatever their weaknesses and ceilings are, he isn’t getting the best out of this squad, which is the absolute minimum you want from the manager. Even if we improve the quality, we want a manager that will get the best out of them, and Gerrard hasn’t shown that he can do that yet.

He’ll get the summer, I think it almost doesn’t matter how the rest of the season goes from the board’s point of view. I’m reminded of the Malcolm Tucker quote “The PM is not going to sack you after a week. Sacked after 12 months - looks like you've fucked up. Sacked after a week - looks like he's fucked up.” (Incidentally, there were plenty of other Malcolm Tucker quotes that came to mind at the game on Saturday)

That doesn’t mean I agree with that, of course, but I think it’s just inevitable. He’ll get bucket-loads of money, and all we can do is hope that he spends it correctly. The comments about “not looking for potential” worry me a lot, maybe O’Neill’s legacy is just still too recent for a lot of us. Looking at the January signings I have not been particularly impressed by Digne so far (I thought we’d want someone with more pace to be honest), although Chambers looks like an excellent signing for the money. Coutinho is a coup, for sure, but even he has looked ordinary recently. None of it screams ‘excellent in the transfer market’ but it is a small sample size to be fair.

We’re far too easy to play against. We were fantastic in the first half - really energetic and pressing high up the pitch, and we were certainly unlucky to go in at half-time behind. But when chatting to my Dad during the interval I asked him what he would do if he was Conte. “Target Konsa” he said. “Yep, tell Kane to stand next to Konsa, and get the ball up to him as quickly as possible” I agreed. We are not experts, it was just obvious, and they destroyed us without having to play well because of their tactics.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that any half-decent manager we have come up against has beaten us.

Is it Gerrard’s fault that Konsa was having a nightmare? Certainly not completely, Konsa has to take a decent amount of the blame. But with so many players playing poorly, when we have seen them all play a lot better, I think we are well within our rights to question the manager. A lot of us thought that Konsa was unlucky not to play in the Euros last summer, now he looks very much a Championship player. And he’s far from the only one.

Do we know for sure that Gerrard will fail next season, and waste a load of money this summer? No. Do we have any evidence to suggest that we’ll improve to the level that we are aiming for after more investment? Again, no.

And this is the reason I didn’t really want him in the first place. It is a risk, and even after 6 months, we have no idea if he is any good or not. Every decent run is quickly followed by a dreadful one, and, even more worryingly, the longer he has with the squad, the worse we seem to be getting. The same, underperforming players get picked every week, and there seems to be very little variation with the tactics.

We were unlucky in the first half on Saturday, which gives me a bit of hope. But it seems to me that drawing hope from a first half performance in a 4-0 loss, or the fact that most of our players are really shit - then we’re getting a little bit desperate.

We got the last 9 months or so completely wrong. We cannot afford to do that again and let a load more clubs overtake or pull further away from us. There has to be a point where losing four on the bounce isn’t acceptable or excusable. But it looks like that might not be until August.

[Beard82]

I think the board need to either decide at the end of this season, or back him for the whole of next season.

Short of us losing every game for the rest of the season - I can’t see us sacking him - so he gets next season.

In terms of the we can’t keep sacking managers - I don’t think we have been really - Bruce got a fair crack, as did Dean

SG frustrates the hell out of me because we see the same formations, tactics, players and subs each week and they rarely work - and I would say virtually all our players are in worse form they have been in. 

We won’t be able to change more than 3 maybe 4 players this summer without bringing in players of questionable quality - and not fully convinced that Gomez is much of an upgrade on Konsa or Mings - for example.

Hopefully a more balanced midfield is the key. 

I think he def has the potential - and I wonder if rangers has hindered him more than helped him - as his only managerial experience is if you keep upgrading players eventual you be better.  Think he needs to be more flexible with this thinking

I’m in unless a world class coach becomes available or we don’t win again this season. 

[Beard82]

I guess we are making it harder for our selves - why would  Bissoma or Phillips come as it seems like a sideways move

Why would players choose us other newcastle.  in Jan we had a clear lead over these 3 clubs - a strong finish could be key in making the summer a success

[Brend'Watkins]

The worrying thing for me is that we are beginning to look a bit disorganized and that leads to leaking goals. That's due to formation or players out of form.  It's probably a bit of both.  Watkins, Konsa and a few others seem to be going backwards in their development.  Maybe it's down to the fact they're not as good as we like to think they are.  Things need to improve quickly.

[levico]

I think the key question in all this is, is Stevie G learning from his mistakes in his first managerial forage into the PL?

Those who back him say  yes he is albeit slowly. Not sure I see any evidence of that but patience was never a virtue for me.

[AV82EC]

The whole group both Manager and players have to take a look at themselves after Saturday? How can we get it so right on the first half admittedly with no end product and made Spurs look like a bunch of just above the relegation zone chancers who’ve come for a point versus the utter catastrophe of the second half where even with the incisive Spurs finishing we still had more of the ball and fell apart in defence and midfield.

This club, an absolute mystery to me even after 30 odd years.