Should I stay or should I go?

[West Derby Villan]

I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along.

Agreed

And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”

And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market

And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)

And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view

This

[Des Little]

Our biggest challenge when upgrading the stadium is the need to deal with Birmingham City council, who are woefully inept when it comes to road and rail infrastructure (amongst many other things).  Let's hope this year's games will serve as a learning curve to getting it right for large events.

[exigo]

I’ve been supporting Villa for over 60 years and two excerpts from Simon’s  book celebrating 100 years of VP sum it up for me: -

“all of us who make that regular pilgrimage to Villa Park tread not only a well worn path through the century, but also through the winding roads of our own personal histories.As we grow from childhood into adulthood…change schools and jobs…move from house to house or town to town, Villa Park remains a constant, helping to nurture our passage through life”

Absolutely with you on this.

I have spent chunks of the last 15 years doing my family history, and already knew that the club went right back to Victorian times in terms of my family's support. I also found out that practically my entire family lived in streets dotted around Villa Park, and that my gt gt grandfather worked at the lower grounds before we even moved there. Most of my ancestors of that time got married in a church i walk past on my way to the ground.

When I go to matches, one thing that strikes me is that I am looking at the exact same rectangle of grass my ancestors would have looked at for over a century. It really is like a journey back into a personal past.

Same for me. When I did my paternal family tree, there were generations of hatches, matches and despatches at Aston Church. All too poor to have any kind of gravestone record.
And my great grandad's ashes were scattered in front of the North Stand, the day after a game back in the early sixties. My dad vividly described the absolute potato field mud bath.
I'm not in the slightest bit religious, but there's something really special about turning the corner towards Villa Park, knowing that I'm literally walking in the footsteps of my ancestors, and keeping the connection to the club alive.

[Ad@m]

I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along.

Name a new ground with a capacity north of 50,000 where you can be away from the ground in 20 minutes.  Wembley is the best designed ground in the country in terms of quickly moving people out and it still takes longer than that.  Birmingham doesn't have the mass transit system to achieve that no matter where a ground was placed.  So in the absence of an obviously better choice Villa Park, being served by two railway stations, a motorway and a major bus route is as good as it's going to get.  It just needs some creative thinking.

[Simon Page]

As we're getting misty-eyed, whenever I emerge from Queens Road and out from under the Expressway, I'm convinced there is no better approach to a sports venue in the world. The church, the stately home, the Holte pub, the trees, the park, the stadium... it's just perfect. All other directions work as well. Crossing Aston Park and seeing the ground poke out through the trees, the Victorian(ish) terraces to the north. Even from Witton, I think about my dad and his dad making the same journey pre-War.

[paul_e]

I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along.

Agreed

And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”

And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market

And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)

And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view

This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.


Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?

[Billy Walker]

I know plenty of folk around here are familiar with this poem, but I post it as a reminder of the cultural significance, alone, of Villa Park.  It's not just the place that has an emotional value, it's the name of the place too.  "Villa Park" on the historical site of Villa Park would be the best outcome, for me.  The stands in 2035 might all end up being very different to the stands we had in 1935, but it is the place and setting itself that counts. As others have said, generations have experienced the ritual of journeying to Villa Park - and, as Larkin reminds us, it wasn't just to attend a football match that brought people there.  The historical and cultural significance of the place, setting and "Villa Park" name should not be underestimated. 

MCMXIV (1964)
Phillip Larkin

Those long uneven lines
Standing as patiently
As if they were stretched outside
The Oval or Villa Park,
The crowns of hats, the sun
On moustached archaic faces
Grinning as if it were all
An August Bank Holiday lark;

And the shut shops, the bleached
Established names on the sunblinds,
The farthings and sovereigns,
And dark-clothed children at play
Called after kings and queens,
The tin advertisements
For cocoa and twist, and the pubs
Wide open all day;

And the countryside not caring:
The place-names all hazed over
With flowering grasses, and fields
Shadowing Domesday lines
Under wheat’s restless silence;
The differently-dressed servants
With tiny rooms in huge houses,
The dust behind limousines;

Never such innocence,
Never before or since,
As changed itself to past
Without a word – the men
Leaving the gardens tidy,
The thousands of marriages,
Lasting a little while longer:
Never such innocence again.

[Brend'Watkins]

As we're getting misty-eyed, whenever I emerge from Queens Road and out from under the Expressway, I'm convinced there is no better approach to a sports venue in the world. The church, the stately home, the Holte pub, the trees, the park, the stadium... it's just perfect. All other directions work as well. Crossing Aston Park and seeing the ground poke out through the trees, the Victorian(ish) terraces to the north. Even from Witton, I think about my dad and his dad making the same journey pre-War.

May time the walk to Villa Park from under the expressway I agree isn't bettered by any other ground in the world.  The sun shining, the Cherry Blossom in full bloom surrounding St Peter & Paul Church, to your left the magnificence of Aston hall towering proudly above all while in front the Holte Hotel Pub doesn't quite fully obscure the place that carries the same name of the man who once upon a time resided in that Magnificent house.  Some want to give that up to live like West Ham?  Some people need to give their heads a wobble.

Expansion of the ground is possible. Our future success and continued success will force BCC's hand to grant the infrastructure changes needed to allow for expansion of either the Trinity Rd or Witton Lane.  Short term,The North Stand could get us to the near 48,000 - 50,000.

[Clive W]

I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along.

Agreed

And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”

And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market

And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)

And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view

This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.


Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?

I don’t fear success at all mate

But in my opinion, it doesn’t have to be achieved by selling off the family silver

Modify VP to increase capacity and improve facilities and sort out the transport issues

[paul_e]

I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along.

Agreed

And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”

And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market

And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)

And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view

This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.


Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?

I don’t fear success at all mate

But in my opinion, it doesn’t have to be achieved by selling off the family silver

Modify VP to increase capacity and improve facilities and sort out the transport issues

Yes but if we're successful in that improved Villa Park:

What is to stop us from going into every season expecting to win things?
What is to stop us appearing on TV more often and having more games moved to odd times?
What is to stop the atmosphere changing with expectations to the point where there's no atmosphere until we take the lead?

PIck any other complaints and the answer is still the same, your complaints are agianst being part of a new look top 4/6/whatever and not about moving to a new ground. The only thing that links the 2 is that a new ground would, probably, result in a big spike in commercial revenue which would make it easier for us to bridge the gap. The argument is whether that increase could be big enough to make it worth breaking with tradition.

[Clive W]

Paul_e

I actually agree with what you say and it’s your last sentence that is the point I’m trying to make

For me, it is about tradition and heritage and the “right” way of doing things, and I’m proud to be associated with a club that has all of those attributes

I’m a traditionalist and, for me, winning trophies in a stadium that is not Villa Park would not have the same value

I guess I want to have my cake and eat it

[Pat Mustard]

I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along.

Agreed

And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”

And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market

And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)

And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view

This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.


Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?

I don’t fear success at all mate

But in my opinion, it doesn’t have to be achieved by selling off the family silver

Modify VP to increase capacity and improve facilities and sort out the transport issues

I don't disagree with anyone saying they never want to see us leave Villa Park - the ground IS special, and it's not just Villa fans who think that.  We can't just keep modifying Villa Park, however, without running into some pretty major problems.

We can redevelop the North Stand which will give us a limited increase, and probably be okay if we remain at the kind of level we've largely been at for the past 40 years - Premier League regulars, occasionally in Europe with the odd cup win.  It won't be enough, however, if we get where NSWE want us to be, and frankly with the lack of competition we have locally we have the opportunity to monopolise local support in the next 10 years if we get it right. 

We are one of those families on the waiting list for season tickets - I have mine, but want them for my wife and daughter.  Even though both are members, arranging tickets for us to sit together at games at the moment is a real challenge and requires a lot of forward planning - I do think if the ground held 50k right now we would still sell out 90% of the time.

The issue then is how do we get Villa Park significantly beyond 50k.  Even disregarding the transport issues, I don't see how we realistically can, given the constraints of the site.  I referred to what Liverpool have done to Anfield to get it up to 62k in another post.  What that doesn't say is the absolutely shitty, scandalous treatment of their neighbours that the club indulged in over the past 20 years to get to the stage where the redevelopment of their main stand was possible.  I'd rather Villa didn't contribute to the degradation of an entire neighbourhood and forcing people out of their homes just so we can add 10,000 seats.

[Woofles The Wonder Dog]

Then give it a year or two and it'll be the worst thing ever again, and people will want something new (or lament what we had). 😉

When has anybody ever lamented an ex-manager?!

Joe Mercer!

[chrisw1]

Chelsea's ground is still traditional and fantastic (in my opinion) and no bigger that VP. 

Anything soulless about their success has nothing to do with Stamford Bridge.

[ChicagoLion]

I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along.

Agreed

And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”

And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market

And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)

And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing

No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view

Jester hats and half and half scarves for everybody.