Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on January 12, 2022, 11:29:44 AM
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When you're talking about a new ground, or expanding Villa Park, or whatever, there's only really one man to ask. So we have.
https://heroesandvillains.info/2022/01/12/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/
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Great stuff.
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
Yep, I agree, i love Villa park and always will but all of the problems it has can't be solved by building a new north stand and giving the rest a bit of a makeover. If we're serious about increasing both capacity and corporate revenue to regularly compete with the sky 6 then we need to do a lot more than that.
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
That's because you want an easy drive in 😉
I think what he says is the opposite.
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Great read Dave.
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
Finding a suitable site closer to the City Centre would be almost impossible. I don't think the gas holder site would be viable - too much existing housing and businesses near to it. That leaves you with an NEC type location, which just leaves me cold.
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
That's because you want an easy drive in 😉
I think what he says is the opposite.
He says there are loads od problems, which there are are, and that leaving on full time can add an hour to your journey, which it does. He then basically says everything is as good as it can be, given where Villa Park is. The obvious solution if you don't want the problems is therefore to move. Home is where the heart is. I've got lots of happy memories of various houses I've owned, but it's the people in them and the things that you do that make a place special.
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No mention of my monorail, cable car or tunnel solutions >:(
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Stay
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
That's because you want an easy drive in 😉
I think what he says is the opposite.
He says there are loads od problems, which there are are, and that leaving on full time can add an hour to your journey, which it does. He then basically says everything is as good as it can be, given where Villa Park is. The obvious solution if you don't want the problems is therefore to move. Home is where the heart is. I've got lots of happy memories of various houses I've owned, but it's the people in them and the things that you do that make a place special.
He also says that better travel options with more bus and rail capacity and building a new North would sort it too.
If you find a home you love, you only move if you have to. If you can build a extension for the increasing numbers of children, and know you can get about ok, then do it.
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
That's because you want an easy drive in 😉
I think what he says is the opposite.
He says there are loads od problems, which there are are, and that leaving on full time can add an hour to your journey, which it does. He then basically says everything is as good as it can be, given where Villa Park is. The obvious solution if you don't want the problems is therefore to move. Home is where the heart is. I've got lots of happy memories of various houses I've owned, but it's the people in them and the things that you do that make a place special.
He also says that better travel options with more bus and rail capacity and building a new North would sort it too.
If you find a home you love, you only move if you have to. If you can build a extension for the increasing numbers of children, and know you can get about ok, then do it.
This is more like having a 'wedge' house. It's brilliant and quirky and you buy it because you love it but over time the practicalities of the shape start to become a problem (because you've had kids and started working from home) so suddenly it's harder to justify staying despite still loving the place. A small extension helps a bit but the size and shape of the plot limit you to the point where it can never be what you now need.
The entire discussion is one of sentiment vs practicality.
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I think it's more reality versus theory. If you move, where to, how do you pay for it and how do you facilitate transport?
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
That's because you want an easy drive in 😉
I think what he says is the opposite.
He says there are loads od problems, which there are are, and that leaving on full time can add an hour to your journey, which it does. He then basically says everything is as good as it can be, given where Villa Park is. The obvious solution if you don't want the problems is therefore to move. Home is where the heart is. I've got lots of happy memories of various houses I've owned, but it's the people in them and the things that you do that make a place special.
But doesn't he say the solution is to improve public transport rather than replicate (or indeed endure worse) problems at a new site?
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everybody else beat me to it!
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In my opinion everything he says just points to the fact that a new stadium would be the way forward.
That's because you want an easy drive in 😉
I think what he says is the opposite.
He says there are loads od problems, which there are are, and that leaving on full time can add an hour to your journey, which it does. He then basically says everything is as good as it can be, given where Villa Park is. The obvious solution if you don't want the problems is therefore to move. Home is where the heart is. I've got lots of happy memories of various houses I've owned, but it's the people in them and the things that you do that make a place special.
He also says that better travel options with more bus and rail capacity and building a new North would sort it too.
If you find a home you love, you only move if you have to. If you can build a extension for the increasing numbers of children, and know you can get about ok, then do it.
This is more like having a 'wedge' house. It's brilliant and quirky and you buy it because you love it but over time the practicalities of the shape start to become a problem (because you've had kids and started working from home) so suddenly it's harder to justify staying despite still loving the place. A small extension helps a bit but the size and shape of the plot limit you to the point where it can never be what you now need.
The entire discussion is one of sentiment vs practicality.
But the sentiment is very, very strong. And the practicality can be solved with a little cash, building an extension and landscaping the garden. A flash new kitchen with bi-fold doors and the rest is as cosy and comfortable as it's always been, albeit with the odd crack appearing.
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But doesn't he say the solution is to improve public transport rather than replicate (or indeed endure worse) problems at a new site?
If public transport could be improved, why hasn't it? Let's face it, it never will. Local infrastructure can't handle the crowds we have now, so adding 10K on to the capacity will just exacerbate all the problems. And much smaller clubs with far less wealthy owners than ours have built new grounds. I'm sure finding a new site for Everton wasn't easy, and they have the added complication of the sea forming a good portion of the area to the west of them!
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But the sentiment is very, very strong. And the practicality can be solved with a little cash, building an extension and landscaping the garden. A flash new kitchen with bi-fold doors and the rest is as cosy and comfortable as it's always been, albeit with the odd crack appearing.
If we're going to continue this, it's lovely having a new kitchen and conservatory, but if it takes you an hour to get in through the front door, what's the point?
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Great interview, questions and answers. More please !
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Are there rules that prevent the bars/restaurants opening after full time?
I’d happily delay leaving if there was something decent open, and probably end up spending extra too.
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Are there rules that prevent the bars/restaurants opening after full time?
I’d happily delay leaving if there was something decent open, and probably end up spending extra too.
Beat me to it. This is the key point. The main problem with Villa Park is there is so little to do apart from watch the game. Yes, you can punch in 20 minutes at the shop but aside from that it is poor. If I could grab a decent meal after the game, or have a good pint I wouldn't be rushing off for the train immediately.
If you sort that aspect- bars, restaurants, maybe a museum you sort some of the issues with the current location.
Edit: and similar applies to the pre-game. There is no point trying to get there early as things stand. If you could grab a good lunch somewhere nearby you could aim to get there earlier and have a bit of pre-game food or whatever.
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Good read. The real issue is still the lack of accountability of the public transport providers. It's utter madness that the UK's second city can't provide a solution except when it's the Rugby World Cup or the Olympics. All fur coat and no knickers.
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Build the wall
Build the wall
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Stay.
As Inglis says “the problem is not the layout or the position of Villa Park, it’s the public transport provision on matchdays.” I’m sure that our owners will be consulting with “the powers that be” to upgrade the transport system if the ground expansion goes ahead
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But the sentiment is very, very strong. And the practicality can be solved with a little cash, building an extension and landscaping the garden. A flash new kitchen with bi-fold doors and the rest is as cosy and comfortable as it's always been, albeit with the odd crack appearing.
If we're going to continue this, it's lovely having a new kitchen and conservatory, but if it takes you an hour to get in through the front door, what's the point?
You get your locks changed, you don't need to buy a new house.
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But doesn't he say the solution is to improve public transport rather than replicate (or indeed endure worse) problems at a new site?
If public transport could be improved, why hasn't it? Let's face it, it never will. Local infrastructure can't handle the crowds we have now, so adding 10K on to the capacity will just exacerbate all the problems. And much smaller clubs with far less wealthy owners than ours have built new grounds. I'm sure finding a new site for Everton wasn't easy, and they have the added complication of the sea forming a good portion of the area to the west of them!
Inglis raised the question of a private partnership to augment the public transport situation. He also pointed out the infrastructure in the two local stations was adequate but that the number of services isn't - that would seem a problem that could readily be fixed.
In terms of getting away from Villa Park, the problem is seemingly very limited to accessing them motorway via Spaghetti. Getting out to the west is easy can be back in Stourbridge within an hour. Similarly getting onto the A38 and up to Junction 8 is never a problem.
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Read that they're knocking down the Tower ballroom. Offer the council a combined stadium /JR Tolkien/LOTR theme park. Right next to a rail station, reservoir you could use for some type of air taxi. Sorted.
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As Inglis says “the problem is not the layout or the position of Villa Park, it’s the public transport provision on matchdays.” I’m sure that our owners will be consulting with “the powers that be” to upgrade the transport system if the ground expansion goes ahead
Sounds like a “levelling up” issue to me. Over to you, Mayor Street.
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transport is only part of the problem, capacity, comfort and facilities in the ground, along with commercial revenue potential, is the other side of this and a new North Stand has a small impact on that but isn't enough. He talks about a lot of those problems but the only real solutionhe offers, as I've suggested before, is to buy out Nelson Road (and maybe other streets) and shift the entire ground 50-100m further from the fork in the road.
Almost every problem the ground has is because of the road layout around it which makes the footprint for the ground very difficult to work with, the park being on 1 side has both helped by enabling us to do what we have so far but also limited us because that road can't be moved.
To keep the pitch where it is, improve facilities, get the capacity where we want, etc the option is really messy, it means buying out witton lane and the road and close behind it, levelling the lot and redirecting the main through road to go along where Holte Road and McGregor Close are currently. That gives you the space to build new stands to repalce the North and DE which are the major issues currently. Then you clear out all of the stumps/villa village/etc and really open up space on 3 sides of the ground (the trinity would still be hemmed in but that's ok given it's parkland anyway). Finally you reclad the trinity and give it a high quality finish and you give the concourses and seating in the holte and trinity a big upgrade and you've got a world class stadium. I suspect that would take a very long time to do though.
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As Inglis says “the problem is not the layout or the position of Villa Park, it’s the public transport provision on matchdays.” I’m sure that our owners will be consulting with “the powers that be” to upgrade the transport system if the ground expansion goes ahead
Sounds like a “levelling up” issue to me. Over to you, Mayor Street.
Good luck with that, finding Mayor Street is as hard as finding Sherlock Street.
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But doesn't he say the solution is to improve public transport rather than replicate (or indeed endure worse) problems at a new site?
If public transport could be improved, why hasn't it? Let's face it, it never will. Local infrastructure can't handle the crowds we have now, so adding 10K on to the capacity will just exacerbate all the problems. And much smaller clubs with far less wealthy owners than ours have built new grounds. I'm sure finding a new site for Everton wasn't easy, and they have the added complication of the sea forming a good portion of the area to the west of them!
But for Everton the redevelopment of the docks area produced a perfect solution. It's an incredible location very close to the City and in an improving vibrant area. Losing Goodison will hurt them, but the Everton fans are very lucky and will have a world class stadium in a brilliant location.
There is just no eqivalent for us that I can see.
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There's just no soul in a new stadium. They all look tidy, but there's just nothing to stir you at all.
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There's just no soul in a new stadium. They all look tidy, but there's just nothing to stir you at all.
“Home is where the heart is!”
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Lets be honest apart from names there's not much left in a historical sense. Doug destroyed the last bit. I'd prefer to stay local but.....
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Lets be honest apart from names there's not much left in a historical sense. Doug destroyed the last bit. I'd prefer to stay local but.....
And yet any living thing sheds it's skin and develops a new one. Cells regenerate but it doesn't make it a new person, does it?
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Lets be honest apart from names there's not much left in a historical sense. Doug destroyed the last bit. I'd prefer to stay local but.....
By far the most impressive stand for me when I first started going was the North Stand, all clean lines and shiny windows. I hated Victorian buildings, probably because of my infants school (Perry Common) and freezing at Erdington baths, the North Stand looked all modern and inspiring.
And now everyone wants to knock it down, bastards.
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Lets be honest apart from names there's not much left in a historical sense. Doug destroyed the last bit. I'd prefer to stay local but.....
And yet any living thing sheds it's skin and develops a new one. Cells regenerate but it doesn't make it a new person, does it?
yeah of course but is Old Trafford still Old Trafford in any real sense? If we could build a 50-60k stadium at VP i'd go for it, but you then have to persuade everyone else to accommodate it as well. The traffic infrastructure is the big one for me. You are talking millions and millions to upgrade rail links at least. The train operators don't have the stock, and Network rail or whatever its called now don't have the track capacity, and that's before you get onto road transport.
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Lets be honest apart from names there's not much left in a historical sense. Doug destroyed the last bit. I'd prefer to stay local but.....
By far the most impressive stand for me when I first started going was the North Stand, all clean lines and shiny windows. I hated Victorian buildings, probably because of my infants school (Perry Common) and freezing at Erdington baths, the North Stand looked all modern and inspiring.
And now everyone wants to knock it down, bastards.
I have a soft spot for it. My mate used to get me in free for stuff like Full Members Cup games when i'd be the only person in the top tier. It's possibly a superb remaining example of 1970's Football Architecture :D
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Lets be honest apart from names there's not much left in a historical sense. Doug destroyed the last bit. I'd prefer to stay local but.....
And yet any living thing sheds it's skin and develops a new one. Cells regenerate but it doesn't make it a new person, does it?
Sounds like Jeff Goldblum's argument in The Fly
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It's ironic that the North Stand is the only one that at the time it was built was genuinely groundbreaking. It was also the only one built under the chairmanship of Not Doug.
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Moving stadium would wipe a lot of our identity for me. Is there another club whose identity is so synonymous with their stadium as Aston Villa's is? just listen to the likes of Carragher, Neville etc to see how intertwined Aston Villa and Villa Park are.
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If anyone does find Andy Street (maybe offer a party invitation?) the transport issue should really tie in with the transport issues for the whole of Birmingham. Are these wonder-buses for the Commonwealth Games going to survive after? If so, it shouldn't be too much effort to lay on football specials on matchdays along the A38 route and up College Road towards Sutton, Kingstanding, etc. Also, are the rail plans that were a big part of his original election going ahead? If so, tag on the Villa as an addition. I can see why it's hard to deal with the Villa Park question in isolation given the lack of use for most of the year, but it's surely easier to combine it with a Birmingham/WM transport plan.
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No mention of my monorail, cable car or tunnel solutions >:(
I for one am absolutely distraught that the proposed cable car & canal tunnel solutions were dismissed so quickly. I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed. Poor show, Inglis. Clearly knows nothing*.
* well, except for a load of buy-on-sight books about football stadium architecture.
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One thing that really struck a bell was something Uli Hoeness (currently Bayern Munich's president) said recently:
We could charge more than £104 [for a season ticket]. Let’s say we charged £300. We’d get £2m more in income, but what’s £2m to us?
In a transfer discussion, you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan. We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk,
Football has got to be for everybody. That’s the biggest difference between us and England
here: https://www.essentiallysports.com/soccer-news-football-news-fans-are-not-like-cows-bayern-munich-president-slams-england-for-high-ticket-prices/
My feeling is that actually, the need for a 60,000 capacity stadium over and above a 50,000 capacity stadium is a bit exaggerated. It's what, £5m over the course of a season at most. Who gives a shit about that when we're spunking more than that each year on Danny Ings' wages? We may as well stay where we are if that's the only thing we're getting out of it.
Absolutely down for massively upgrading the facilities at Villa Park. And whilst we're doing that, we may as well increase the capacity of the ground where that's feasible. But the more I think about it, the less it makes sense to leave.
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I honestly think the seats towards the front of the Upper North offer some of the best views in football. That I’ve encountered anyway. Shame about the legroom and facilities.
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Moving stadium would wipe a lot of our identity for me. Is there another club whose identity is so synonymous with their stadium as Aston Villa's is? just listen to the likes of Carragher, Neville etc to see how intertwined Aston Villa and Villa Park are.
Liverpool and Anfield?
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I honestly think the seats towards the front of the Upper North offer some of the best views in football. That I’ve encountered anyway. Shame about the legroom and facilities.
I'm on the back row, and it's a fantastic view.
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I hope the owners consult Simon Inglis before they make any final decisions! For me, we have to stay at Villa Park: rebuild the Witton End, tidy up the Trinity by replacing all the cheap finishes with quality, and then, finally, rebuild the Witton Lane. An extra little touch - I'd move the McGregor statue to in front of the Holte or new Witton End so that people see the great man welcoming them as they approach the ground.
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As a ST holder for the first time in 14 years it is interesting how things have changed. Pre game there were a host of options around the ground back in the last decade, the Manor, Vine, King Edward etc but the only place I'd consider now is the Bartons and the service is in there has been ropey of late.
We've got to the ground early a few times but the Holte concourse is less than welcoming, plastic glasses, nowhere to put your drink and it's been fucking freezing lately. There's always a queue for the Holte Suite although post match is OK ish.
Generally we go from Town and that's the key for me. We get a taxi but would be more than happy to jump on the bus or train if there were more services.
I can't see us moving anytime soon so it's a case of rebuilding the NS and making further efforts to improve transport links.
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Park and Ride with shuttle services is something that should be seriously considered by the club as it would be a relatively quick fix of sorts. Would there be many areas around the city that would be suitable for large numbers of cars and with reasonably bus priority towards VP?
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Moving stadium would wipe a lot of our identity for me. Is there another club whose identity is so synonymous with their stadium as Aston Villa's is? just listen to the likes of Carragher, Neville etc to see how intertwined Aston Villa and Villa Park are.
Liverpool and Anfield?
Everton’s former ground
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I honestly think the seats towards the front of the Upper North offer some of the best views in football. That I’ve encountered anyway. Shame about the legroom and facilities.
I'm on the back row, and it's a fantastic view.
This for me too, I had my first ever ST in there, about in the middle of the middle. I've seen the league won from there, an unbelievable Euro Cup campaign, Barcelona put to the sword for the Super cup. We sat in the old Trinity for the Juventus game, I think that's where we went wrong!
So yes, it means the world to me the North Stand, but it's the one area we can utilise. Surely it can't be beyond a black belt architect to maintain the magnificent view?
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Fuck that to moving away from Villa Park. It's not just iconic to us, but also to away fans/British football in general, having hosted more FA Cup semi finals than any other ground in the country.
Villa. Park. Those two words fill me with an enormous sense of pride - A proper traditional club, with a grand, traditional football stadium. Every drop of blood, sweat and tears have poured out within those foundations and we wouldn't be Aston Villa Football Club without it.
By all means redevelop the North and Witton stands and the surrounding areas, but don't even contemplate moving us!
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Moving stadium would wipe a lot of our identity for me. Is there another club whose identity is so synonymous with their stadium as Aston Villa's is? just listen to the likes of Carragher, Neville etc to see how intertwined Aston Villa and Villa Park are.
Liverpool and Anfield?
And Liverpool have stayed there for that very reason.
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Never move away. Gate receipts are a decreasing percentage of revenue - brand identity (vomits, but true) is more important. 42,000, 46,000, 60,000, it's less important than being a recognisably massive part of the most valuable league on earth. Villa Park, in the Premier League, there's yer money.
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Lets be honest apart from names there's not much left in a historical sense. Doug destroyed the last bit. I'd prefer to stay local but.....
By far the most impressive stand for me when I first started going was the North Stand, all clean lines and shiny windows. I hated Victorian buildings, probably because of my infants school (Perry Common) and freezing at Erdington baths, the North Stand looked all modern and inspiring.
And now everyone wants to knock it down, bastards.
Not me, not for the sake of it anyway. Only sat in it twice, brilliant view but it took my legs a week to stretch back into shape, and if it ever needed to be evacuated in a real emergency, well, probably best not thought about. However, on the rare occasion I find myself able to look out from the middle of the Holte, I think the old dear looks tremendous. There's not many about, if at all any, like it.
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I honestly think the seats towards the front of the Upper North offer some of the best views in football. That I’ve encountered anyway. Shame about the legroom and facilities.
I'm on the back row, and it's a fantastic view.
This for me too, I had my first ever ST in there, about in the middle of the middle. I've seen the league won from there, an unbelievable Euro Cup campaign, Barcelona put to the sword for the Super cup. We sat in the old Trinity for the Juventus game, I think that's where we went wrong!
So yes, it means the world to me the North Stand, but it's the one area we can utilise. Surely it can't be beyond a black belt architect to maintain the magnificent view?
We (me, my dad, and my grandad) sat in the North Stand for most of the time we were season ticket holders - I'd guess 1989-1997? My grandad's eyesight started giving up so we moved for a season to the (then fairly new) Doug Ellis stand for a year, then to the old Trinity Road stand for a couple of seasons. Nowadays either sit in the North Stand or the Trinity Road depending on where tickets are available. Love both - the view from the North Stand is wonderful.
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I honestly can't imagine calling anywhere home other than Villa Park.
I'm in the redevelop the North Stand & the Witton Lane camp!
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If anyone does find Andy Street (maybe offer a party invitation?) the transport issue should really tie in with the transport issues for the whole of Birmingham. Are these wonder-buses for the Commonwealth Games going to survive after? If so, it shouldn't be too much effort to lay on football specials on matchdays along the A38 route and up College Road towards Sutton, Kingstanding, etc. Also, are the rail plans that were a big part of his original election going ahead? If so, tag on the Villa as an addition. I can see why it's hard to deal with the Villa Park question in isolation given the lack of use for most of the year, but it's surely easier to combine it with a Birmingham/WM transport plan.
No wonder-buses - just very familiar double deckers.
That said, it shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility to hire a fleet of 20 buses per match and shuttle fans to a couple of locations in the city centre and maybe Sutton? I'd bet no more than £25k per match. Which, in the grand schemes of football finances is pennies.
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The article confirms that moving would be unlikely to solve the transport problems which is the biggest issue, so it really is about improving all aspects of the Ground and transport.
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Depends where it's moved too. There is a massive vacant piece of land slap bang in the city centre. Easily big enough for a new stadium. It's a visionary thing to do... which isn't one of the Council's strong points.
But imagine a world class stadium in the centre of town. Football first obviously, but concerts, other sports, events... it would be brilliant for the city.
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Depends where it's moved too. There is a massive vacant piece of land slap bang in the city centre. Easily big enough for a new stadium. It's a visionary thing to do... which isn't one of the Council's strong points.
But imagine a world class stadium in the centre of town. Football first obviously, but concerts, other sports, events... it would be brilliant for the city.
I think that was mentioned on another thread and it is already taken.
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Are there rules that prevent the bars/restaurants opening after full time?
I’d happily delay leaving if there was something decent open, and probably end up spending extra too.
At the Amex they keep the bars open after the game and there's room in the concourses. However, getting away from the ground is, in my experience, even worse than from Villa Park, which brings us back to the importance of good transport links.
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No mention of my monorail, cable car or tunnel solutions >:(
I for one am absolutely distraught that the proposed cable car & canal tunnel solutions were dismissed so quickly. I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed. Poor show, Inglis. Clearly knows nothing*.
* well, except for a load of buy-on-sight books about football stadium architecture.
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One thing that really struck a bell was something Uli Hoeness (currently Bayern Munich's president) said recently:
We could charge more than £104 [for a season ticket]. Let’s say we charged £300. We’d get £2m more in income, but what’s £2m to us?
In a transfer discussion, you argue about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300 is huge for the fan. We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk,
Football has got to be for everybody. That’s the biggest difference between us and England
here: https://www.essentiallysports.com/soccer-news-football-news-fans-are-not-like-cows-bayern-munich-president-slams-england-for-high-ticket-prices/
My feeling is that actually, the need for a 60,000 capacity stadium over and above a 50,000 capacity stadium is a bit exaggerated. It's what, £5m over the course of a season at most. Who gives a shit about that when we're spunking more than that each year on Danny Ings' wages? We may as well stay where we are if that's the only thing we're getting out of it.
Absolutely down for massively upgrading the facilities at Villa Park. And whilst we're doing that, we may as well increase the capacity of the ground where that's feasible. But the more I think about it, the less it makes sense to leave.
Sorry, but this 'quote' drives me insane;
-It has no basis in any reputable media source
-Hoeneß is a convicted criminal, not exactly someone we should be looking to for moral lessons
-Bayern Munich have ticket prices that are at the very least similar to Premier League clubs, and absolutely price gouge for Champions League matches. In any case, the average fan can't get a ticket, as those Season tickets are behind a waiting list currently controlled by people who sell the tickets on. Yes, a tiny percentage of BM tickets are sold at a low price, the vast majority are no better than the Premier League
https://twitter.com/dw_sports/status/1143833584832253952?s=20
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Great Q&A with Simon Inglis and the postings show how important Villa Park is to us all.
On the issue of public transport, I"ve posted before on this and like many can remember the queue of Birmingham City Transport (BCT) buses lined up at Witton island ready to head off in each direction of the Outer Circle or into town.
I'm afraid they're gone, never to return.
And that's the fault of Sky, BT and Amazon et al.
In the "good old days", when the fixtures were published in August, the gaffers at BCT knew with 100% certainty when we'd be at home and could roster staff accordingly.
With the constant late changing of kick off times and days, to suit the tv viewers, it's pretty well impossible for trains or buses to be rustled up to meet the needs of fans.
Moving to a new ground elsewhere won't change this ongoing problem.
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That's a good (and sobering) point.
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I am sure when this Football Tzar gets appointed everything will be sorted out.:~}
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Stay and rebuild the North Stand.
And rebuild the Holte into a single tier monster again.
Put in proper bars and eateries behind the North Stand and in any space nearby. So people can make a day of it.
Put on fleets of buses.
Job done.
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In a hypothetical world and we found a location in the centre of town big enough to plonk Spurs’ stadium, would there be enough corporate cash to justify the additional cost?
Relatively speaking it would be cheap to demolish and re-build the north stand to test the demand for expensive corporate tickets. we’d get our money back in ten years and in the meantime serious thought could be given to slowly acquiring warehouses (or whatever) closer to the city centre.
Moving to the NEC would be fucking awful.
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Remain.
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If we are serious about competing at the top level we have to expand to between 50-60k and I’d be happy to stay to achieve that as long as we can sort out the myriad of issues with the current stadium.
If that isn’t feasible I’d be happy to move but if we did it would need to be closer in and on the Aston side of the City Centre.
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Thinking about having some sort of attraction at/near VP, you could wonder why not expand the current drink facilities to outside the ground. However, perhaps five pound a pint/cans being poured into plastics (surely the correct name for a plastic glass?)/service-with-a-grimmace would be tolerated within the ground but not elsewhere.
So what about other attractions? I don't recall how Preston got the National Football Museum or even if Villa bid to host it, but in 2019 (the last full year before you-know-what) it welcomed 210,000 visitors, or an average of 575 per calendar day. Could this have been an opportunity missed? Such a feature could surely have sustained a bar or restaurant or two of each.
Maybe (and I am just brainstorming here) a beer museum could be an answer. Typically Sunday to Friday it is open to mid-fifties, bearded types with a love of warm beer, on Saturday matchdays it's an attraction or simply a watering hole. Like I say, just brainstorming.
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Thinking about having some sort of attraction at/near VP, you could wonder why not expand the current drink facilities to outside the ground. However, perhaps five pound a pint/cans being poured into plastics (surely the correct name for a plastic glass?)/service-with-a-grimmace would be tolerated within the ground but not elsewhere.
So what about other attractions? I don't recall how Preston got the National Football Museum or even if Villa bid to host it, but in 2019 (the last full year before you-know-what) it welcomed 210,000 visitors, or an average of 575 per calendar day. Could this have been an opportunity missed? Such a feature could surely have sustained a bar or restaurant or two of each.
Maybe (and I am just brainstorming here) a beer museum could be an answer. Typically Sunday to Friday it is open to mid-fifties, bearded types with a love of warm beer, on Saturday matchdays it's an attraction or simply a watering hole. Like I say, just brainstorming.
Preston got it because we couldn't be arsed bidding then it moved to Manchester in 2012.
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Stay. VP is one of the things I love most about our club. And football romance is on life support as it is.
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Preston got it because we couldn't be arsed bidding then it moved to Manchester in 2012.
I didn't realise it had moved, but the other part of your answer was what I'd suspected.
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Location, location, location.
No way should we ever consider moving,
There is absolutely no reason why the current transport/travel problems cannot be overcome with planning, co-operation and investment. It’s in everyone’s best interests, particularly the local residents, to get people away from there quicker.
As for the ground itself I’d love to have known what Tony Xia’s big plans were, if there actually were any. There must be people who were sworn to secrecy on them who can now leak something. Probably all bullshit, like him.
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Preston got it because we couldn't be arsed bidding then it moved to Manchester in 2012.
I didn't realise it had moved, but the other part of your answer was what I'd suspected.
Mark Ansell was asked at the time and he said that a Premier League club couldn't have hoped to get the necessary grant funding, which was strongly believed to be bollocks.
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But doesn't he say the solution is to improve public transport rather than replicate (or indeed endure worse) problems at a new site?
If public transport could be improved, why hasn't it? Let's face it, it never will. Local infrastructure can't handle the crowds we have now, so adding 10K on to the capacity will just exacerbate all the problems. And much smaller clubs with far less wealthy owners than ours have built new grounds. I'm sure finding a new site for Everton wasn't easy, and they have the added complication of the sea forming a good portion of the area to the west of them!
There just isn't a suitable site for us. The Serpentine was our best opportunity to build a new ground and just a few hundred yards from Villa Park. That chance has now gone forever with all the industrial units they've built in and around there. Just a case of bad timing. As for Evertons new ground Liverpool has loads of disused docks waiting for redevelopment.
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I'm a long time out of the loop but late sixties there was a club at the ground where you could go after the game to meet up with friends to discuss the game, is it still there or long gone. I believe the answer to the transport problem is to expand the commercial side for before and after the game, give members a reason to get to Villa Park early and stay after the game. It appears to me that most get to the ground half an hour before kick off, no wonder there are traffic problems.
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A lot of the infrastructure challenges are outside of the club's control but what is in their control is catering. Why not turn the North Stand car park in to a post match Digbeth Diner type thing with bars and takeaway food to try to keep a few thousand from leaving straight away. That should then spread out the problem of shifting 10s of thousands of people which every large club has.
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A lot of the infrastructure challenges are outside of the club's control but what is in their control is catering. Why not turn the North Stand car park in to a post match Digbeth Diner type thing with bars and takeaway food to try to keep a few thousand from leaving straight away. That should then spread out the problem of shifting 10s of thousands of people which every large club has.
Because it's full of cars?
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Stay - Teams that splash out on a new stadium always seem to struggle on the pitch. Plus, Villa Park is beautiful.
Rebuild the North Stand.
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A lot of the infrastructure challenges are outside of the club's control but what is in their control is catering. Why not turn the North Stand car park in to a post match Digbeth Diner type thing with bars and takeaway food to try to keep a few thousand from leaving straight away. That should then spread out the problem of shifting 10s of thousands of people which every large club has.
Because it's full of cars?
So shift the cars. You said yourself that modern grounds have very little parking capacity. Just because our ground has been there over 100 years doesn't mean we should keep a car park at either end.
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I think if we moved my love affair with Aston Villa would drop
Villa Park is, well Villa Park
Despite the vandalism by Doug it is one of the countries Iconic football grounds, fix up what needs fixing , North Stand catering etc
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I only manage to get to a couple of games a season - less with covid - so any decision made by the club will not be based on fans like me. But going to Villa Park is more than going to a game. It's the place my brother and Dad have gone all my life. It holds memories that come back just driving towards the ground, walking through Aston park and seeing the stadium come into view. Sure if we moved to a fancy new stadium I'd still go, and maybe it would be better financially and help the club compete with the elite clubs, etc. But it would never be the same again for me, a part of Villa would be lost.
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Stay.
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A lot of the infrastructure challenges are outside of the club's control but what is in their control is catering. Why not turn the North Stand car park in to a post match Digbeth Diner type thing with bars and takeaway food to try to keep a few thousand from leaving straight away. That should then spread out the problem of shifting 10s of thousands of people which every large club has.
Because it's full of cars?
So shift the cars. You said yourself that modern grounds have very little parking capacity. Just because our ground has been there over 100 years doesn't mean we should keep a car park at either end.
First, I didn't say it and the key phrase here is 'new grounds'. At the moment some supporters pay a lot of money for those parking spaces. They're also used by club staff. Then there's the safety implications of having food stands in an area that's used as an exit. If it was practical do you not think it would have been tried before?
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A lot of the infrastructure challenges are outside of the club's control but what is in their control is catering. Why not turn the North Stand car park in to a post match Digbeth Diner type thing with bars and takeaway food to try to keep a few thousand from leaving straight away. That should then spread out the problem of shifting 10s of thousands of people which every large club has.
Because it's full of cars?
So shift the cars. You said yourself that modern grounds have very little parking capacity. Just because our ground has been there over 100 years doesn't mean we should keep a car park at either end.
First, I didn't say it and the key phrase here is 'new grounds'. At the moment some supporters pay a lot of money for those parking spaces. They're also used by club staff. Then there's the safety implications of having food stands in an area that's used as an exit. If it was practical do you not think it would have been tried before?
Not necessarily. Using a car park as a car park is the easy answer. Just because something's never been done before doesn't mean it's impossible or that it's already been thoroughly thought through.
So some supporters pay a lot of money to park there. Well supporters paid a lot of money to sit in the Trinity when we got relegated but it didn't stop the club kicking them out of their seats. And it would be easy enough for staff to park offsite and be bussed to the ground.
We all know VP isn't ideal so if we're going to stay we need to be creative about how we use it.
(PS Apologies - I thought you had said about the parking at other grounds - must've been someone else)
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A lot of the infrastructure challenges are outside of the club's control but what is in their control is catering. Why not turn the North Stand car park in to a post match Digbeth Diner type thing with bars and takeaway food to try to keep a few thousand from leaving straight away. That should then spread out the problem of shifting 10s of thousands of people which every large club has.
Because it's full of cars?
So shift the cars. You said yourself that modern grounds have very little parking capacity. Just because our ground has been there over 100 years doesn't mean we should keep a car park at either end.
First, I didn't say it and the key phrase here is 'new grounds'. At the moment some supporters pay a lot of money for those parking spaces. They're also used by club staff. Then there's the safety implications of having food stands in an area that's used as an exit. If it was practical do you not think it would have been tried before?
They could do something about access on foot at the back of the North Stand, it's a joke after the game, people coming both ways trying to squeeze through gaps between the parked cars including wheelchair users. There's no clear pathway at all, it's a farce, I'm surprised they get away with it, it could be solved by just losing a few of the spaces nearest the stand.
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Talking league positions and trophies, not pounds in the bank, I wonder if Arsenal would have been any worse off if they’d stayed at Highbury, a classy old ground that still sends a tingle up the spine even now when I’ve walked past it going to their smart, comfortable but soulless new place.
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Talking league positions and trophies, not pounds in the bank, I wonder if Arsenal would have been any worse off if they’d stayed at Highbury, a classy old ground that still sends a tingle up the spine even now when I’ve walked past it going to their smart, comfortable but soulless new place.
And a ground 25 years old that's already looking tatty in parts.
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Highbury makes me sad. I know it's probably better than being demolished but it's a bit like a stuffed bird in a case. Stands aren't really stands unless they're doing what they were built for.
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Highbury makes me sad. I know it's probably better than being demolished but it's a bit like a stuffed bird in a case. Stands aren't really stands unless they're doing what they were built for.
Must be weird living in it if you are a fan
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Weren't there significant fire safety issues with those apartments at Highbury? From memory owners were expected to shell out massive amounts to bring them up to standard.
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Talking league positions and trophies, not pounds in the bank, I wonder if Arsenal would have been any worse off if they’d stayed at Highbury, a classy old ground that still sends a tingle up the spine even now when I’ve walked past it going to their smart, comfortable but soulless new place.
And a ground 25 years old that's already looking tatty in parts.
Even worse, they’ve only been there since 2006!
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I do not think any one has come up with a location that would work, maybe there would have been better options 10,15 years ago before a lot of the redevelopment has taken place or been planned..
So New Stadium probably means NEC or similar, do fans really want that?
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Talking league positions and trophies, not pounds in the bank, I wonder if Arsenal would have been any worse off if they’d stayed at Highbury, a classy old ground that still sends a tingle up the spine even now when I’ve walked past it going to their smart, comfortable but soulless new place.
And a ground 25 years old that's already looking tatty in parts.
Even worse, they’ve only been there since 2006!
They've been at the Emirates for nearly 20 years?! :o I still think of that place as a new ground!
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I hope we never leave Villa Park Trinity Rd , but if we did I'd hope it would still be local to Aston/Witton, but there just isnt the land to do it , Moor Lane on the council pitches/land maybe ?
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If we left Villa Park, I doubt I'd bother going.
I'm a terrible fan, I know!
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Couldn't think of anything worse than a horrible, edge of the city, NEC-type location. Wouldn't be completely averse to moving if a decent location could be found but don't see how that would be feasible.
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Went on a stadium tour at the weekend and the fella doing it said NSWE had plans in place to upgrade VP in 2 phases. First one is to rebuild the North taking us up to 54k. Second phase is to take us to 60k if there's demand, regular European football etc.
Based on that I doubt we'll be leaving B6 any time soon. Would hate us to move out of town personally, even though getting away afterwards is a nightmare it's worth putting up with.
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That sounds exciting!
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I'm definitely stay we must stay at Villa Park it wouldn't feel right moving from Villa Park it means so much to all of us fans we can build a new stand to replace the North Stand.
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Went on a stadium tour at the weekend and the fella doing it said NSWE had plans in place to upgrade VP in 2 phases. First one is to rebuild the North taking us up to 54k. Second phase is to take us to 60k if there's demand, regular European football etc.
Based on that I doubt we'll be leaving B6 any time soon. Would hate us to move out of town personally, even though getting away afterwards is a nightmare it's worth putting up with.
54k is pretty ambitious from just redeveloping the North Stand - I'm guessing that the only way we'd do this is by filling in the corners and ending up with a horseshoe layout. I think anything beyond that will involve much longer planning, buying up of properties and bigger masterplan for the whole area.
I still don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that we could redevelop the North Stand and still end up having to leave Villa Park in the future, or once the land is available that VP ends up being completely rebuilt a la Spurs. The Alexander Stadium will have scope for temporary stands meaning it might be a viable option if we had to move out for a season, but really can't see that happening for at least 10 years or so. The question will be how quickly we want/need to get to a capacity much beyond 52-54k.
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Stay for me.
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Went on a stadium tour at the weekend and the fella doing it said NSWE had plans in place to upgrade VP in 2 phases. First one is to rebuild the North taking us up to 54k. Second phase is to take us to 60k if there's demand, regular European football etc.
Based on that I doubt we'll be leaving B6 any time soon. Would hate us to move out of town personally, even though getting away afterwards is a nightmare it's worth putting up with.
54k is pretty ambitious from just redeveloping the North Stand - I'm guessing that the only way we'd do this is by filling in the corners and ending up with a horseshoe layout. I think anything beyond that will involve much longer planning, buying up of properties and bigger masterplan for the whole area.
I still don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that we could redevelop the North Stand and still end up having to leave Villa Park in the future, or once the land is available that VP ends up being completely rebuilt a la Spurs. The Alexander Stadium will have scope for temporary stands meaning it might be a viable option if we had to move out for a season, but really can't see that happening for at least 10 years or so. The question will be how quickly we want/need to get to a capacity much beyond 52-54k.
54k just by redeveloping the Witton End sounds impossible to me, unless it going to be all standing. It currently has 7k seats so would need to go up to 19k to make 54. The Holte currently has 13.5k and Trinity Rd 13k.
I wouldn’t fancy a seat in the back row trying to look through the clouds!
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A lot of the infrastructure challenges are outside of the club's control but what is in their control is catering. Why not turn the North Stand car park in to a post match Digbeth Diner type thing with bars and takeaway food to try to keep a few thousand from leaving straight away. That should then spread out the problem of shifting 10s of thousands of people which every large club has.
Because it's full of cars?
So shift the cars. You said yourself that modern grounds have very little parking capacity. Just because our ground has been there over 100 years doesn't mean we should keep a car park at either end.
First, I didn't say it and the key phrase here is 'new grounds'. At the moment some supporters pay a lot of money for those parking spaces. They're also used by club staff. Then there's the safety implications of having food stands in an area that's used as an exit. If it was practical do you not think it would have been tried before?
Not necessarily. Using a car park as a car park is the easy answer. Just because something's never been done before doesn't mean it's impossible or that it's already been thoroughly thought through.
So some supporters pay a lot of money to park there. Well supporters paid a lot of money to sit in the Trinity when we got relegated but it didn't stop the club kicking them out of their seats. And it would be easy enough for staff to park offsite and be bussed to the ground.
We all know VP isn't ideal so if we're going to stay we need to be creative about how we use it.
(PS Apologies - I thought you had said about the parking at other grounds - must've been someone else)
i think there's merit in this, but what about the night games that kick off at 8, or some even at 8:15pm. People aren't going to want to hang about after them and you will probably get some noise related restrictions that late anyway.
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Also, thinking about car parking, wasn't part of the planning application for the new academy the other side of Witton Station stating that it would be used for staff match day parking?
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Went on a stadium tour at the weekend and the fella doing it said NSWE had plans in place to upgrade VP in 2 phases. First one is to rebuild the North taking us up to 54k. Second phase is to take us to 60k if there's demand, regular European football etc.
Based on that I doubt we'll be leaving B6 any time soon. Would hate us to move out of town personally, even though getting away afterwards is a nightmare it's worth putting up with.
54k is pretty ambitious from just redeveloping the North Stand - I'm guessing that the only way we'd do this is by filling in the corners and ending up with a horseshoe layout. I think anything beyond that will involve much longer planning, buying up of properties and bigger masterplan for the whole area.
I still don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that we could redevelop the North Stand and still end up having to leave Villa Park in the future, or once the land is available that VP ends up being completely rebuilt a la Spurs. The Alexander Stadium will have scope for temporary stands meaning it might be a viable option if we had to move out for a season, but really can't see that happening for at least 10 years or so. The question will be how quickly we want/need to get to a capacity much beyond 52-54k.
54k just by redeveloping the Witton End sounds impossible to me, unless it going to be all standing. It currently has 7k seats so would need to go up to 19k to make 54. The Holte currently has 13.5k and Trinity Rd 13k.
I wouldn’t fancy a seat in the back row trying to look through the clouds!
You could act out scenes from Monkey though, and do that thing where he blows on his two fingers.
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Only on here can a thread about ground redevelopment and local travel infrastructure move onto the topic of Monkey. That's why I love it
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Pigsy..... deffo a bluenose!
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Went on a stadium tour at the weekend and the fella doing it said NSWE had plans in place to upgrade VP in 2 phases. First one is to rebuild the North taking us up to 54k. Second phase is to take us to 60k if there's demand, regular European football etc.
Based on that I doubt we'll be leaving B6 any time soon. Would hate us to move out of town personally, even though getting away afterwards is a nightmare it's worth putting up with.
You could have saved us a lot of time debating whether or not we should vacate B6 if you dropped that little nugget in a bit sooner! But seriously that's really interesting news. To raise the capacity to 54k in one go would mean 19,000 seats at that end of the ground which would suggest they plan to wrap the stand round from the Trinity at the height it currently is. It might even need to go a bit higher to achieve those stats.
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If they just built a Holte copy at the North stand end it would easily achieve 15,000 because it wouldn't need to have a whole corner sliced off on the Trinity Rd side. Fill in the corner between the two and it's easy to see how they can get the 19,000 seats at that end of the ground.
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I'm not sure how I feel about filling the corners in at VP...
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Can we just have safe standing around all the bottom tiers and in the Holte?
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A super read. Cheers Dave.
And I’m a remainer.
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I'm not sure how I feel about filling the corners in at VP...
I think we all love the 4 separate stands design of Villa Park but the reality is there's no way of achieving the capacity needed without filling in the corners. I think we will eventually end up with a horseshoe shaped stadium with a freestanding Holte End. However I think none of of it will happen until the problems around transport infrastructure are sorted out.
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I can't see much happening re transport. How much political will is there to solve something that's a bit of a pain for a relatively small amount of people on one afternoon or evening every 19 days on average?
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Copy the Holte at the Witton End as has been suggested on here a few times. You probably could get 14-15k with that design at that end.That gets you up to around 48-50k. I think that would do for the moment.
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There were two versions of the plans knocking around from Lerner's days. I can only find this one at over 51k, but I'm sure the other option had a bigger corner increasing capacity a bit further.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1q7p5p/51000villapark1.webp) (https://ibb.co/Z1q7p5p)
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Talking league positions and trophies, not pounds in the bank, I wonder if Arsenal would have been any worse off if they’d stayed at Highbury, a classy old ground that still sends a tingle up the spine even now when I’ve walked past it going to their smart, comfortable but soulless new place.
And a ground 25 years old that's already looking tatty in parts.
Even worse, they’ve only been there since 2006!
They've been at the Emirates for nearly 20 years?! :o I still think of that place as a new ground!
15.5 years. Sir Olof of Mellberg the first player to score a goal there in a competitive game.
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There were two versions of the plans knocking around from Lerner's days. I can only find this one at over 51k, but I'm sure the other option had a bigger corner increasing capacity a bit further.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1q7p5p/51000villapark1.webp) (https://ibb.co/Z1q7p5p)
I remember that. The 51k seats in that drawing can easily be turned into 54k with a bit of adjustment/enlargement at the corner of between the TR and NS. 54k being the figure mentioned by an earlier poster who went on a stadium tour recently. He was told that they have plans for that.
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With regard to the problems of the rail services, perhaps Wes has plans:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2020/06/11/inside-a-wall-street-tycoons-plan-to-get-americans-off-the-highway---and-on-his-trains/?sh=11bf34cb7a04
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With regard to the problems of the rail services, perhaps Wes has plans:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2020/06/11/inside-a-wall-street-tycoons-plan-to-get-americans-off-the-highway---and-on-his-trains/?sh=11bf34cb7a04
Blimey when you look at his involvement in that it makes our concerns about enlarging VP look like chicken feed. I hope he can still find time for little old Aston Villa. Let's hope it turns out to be a money spinner and not a costly vanity project.
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I’ve been supporting Villa for over 60 years and two excerpts from Simon’s book celebrating 100 years of VP sum it up for me: -
“all of us who make that regular pilgrimage to Villa Park tread not only a well worn path through the century, but also through the winding roads of our own personal histories.As we grow from childhood into adulthood…change schools and jobs…move from house to house or town to town, Villa Park remains a constant, helping to nurture our passage through life”
and
“Of course every football fan likes to imagine that their home ground is unique, that their club is special. And they are absolutely right to feel that way. But in truth, Villa fans are luckier than most”
Stay
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I’ve been supporting Villa for over 60 years and two excerpts from Simon’s book celebrating 100 years of VP sum it up for me: -
“all of us who make that regular pilgrimage to Villa Park tread not only a well worn path through the century, but also through the winding roads of our own personal histories.As we grow from childhood into adulthood…change schools and jobs…move from house to house or town to town, Villa Park remains a constant, helping to nurture our passage through life”
and
“Of course every football fan likes to imagine that their home ground is unique, that their club is special. And they are absolutely right to feel that way. But in truth, Villa fans are luckier than most”
Stay
Clive,
In the proverbial nutshell
Spot on! (applause)
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Copy the Holte at the Witton End as has been suggested on here a few times. You probably could get 14-15k with that design at that end.That gets you up to around 48-50k. I think that would do for the moment.
Is it feasible to do that over a season though and reduce the capacity so significantly? Just think the Alexander Stadium development for the Commonwealth Games might just present a unique opportunity for an alternative venue while work on VP was done.
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A copy of the Holte End isn't going to achieve what the club want - aside from the increase in capacity, Purslow was pretty clear that a major objective in any redevelopment is a large increase in the availability of corporate seats. To get that the design is more likely to mirror the Trinity Road stand, which then make more sense in joining the two stands in the corners.
The other issue with a replica of the Holte End, I suspect, is that regulations have changed since it was built. There would need to be larger seats, more exits etc. which would reduce the capacity of the stand in comparison. I know that when Liverpool have built their new stands, for instance, they have been done as expansions of the original stands rather than complete new builds as this is a way of maintaining the capacity of the original areas which would otherwise have been reduced considerably.
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
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Then give it a year or two and it'll be the worst thing ever again, and people will want something new (or lament what we had). 😉
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A copy of the Holte End isn't going to achieve what the club want - aside from the increase in capacity, Purslow was pretty clear that a major objective in any redevelopment is a large increase in the availability of corporate seats. To get that the design is more likely to mirror the Trinity Road stand, which then make more sense in joining the two stands in the corners.
The other issue with a replica of the Holte End, I suspect, is that regulations have changed since it was built. There would need to be larger seats, more exits etc. which would reduce the capacity of the stand in comparison. I know that when Liverpool have built their new stands, for instance, they have been done as expansions of the original stands rather than complete new builds as this is a way of maintaining the capacity of the original areas which would otherwise have been reduced considerably.
I can't imagine any decent-sized ground now having a new stand that doesn't include corporates.
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Then give it a year or two and it'll be the worst thing ever again, and people will want something new (or lament what we had). 😉
When has anybody ever lamented an ex-manager?!
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Agreed
And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”
And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market
And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)
And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing
No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view
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Then give it a year or two and it'll be the worst thing ever again, and people will want something new (or lament what we had). 😉
When has anybody ever lamented an ex-manager?!
I miss Tim's enthusiasm and gillets
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I can't see much happening re transport. How much political will is there to solve something that's a bit of a pain for a relatively small amount of people on one afternoon or evening every 19 days on average?
I was thinking about this, given the relative lack of interest in local politics, maybe there are more Villa supporting apathetic mayoral voters who could be mobilised, than we think?
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I’ve been supporting Villa for over 60 years and two excerpts from Simon’s book celebrating 100 years of VP sum it up for me: -
“all of us who make that regular pilgrimage to Villa Park tread not only a well worn path through the century, but also through the winding roads of our own personal histories.As we grow from childhood into adulthood…change schools and jobs…move from house to house or town to town, Villa Park remains a constant, helping to nurture our passage through life”
Absolutely with you on this.
I have spent chunks of the last 15 years doing my family history, and already knew that the club went right back to Victorian times in terms of my family's support. I also found out that practically my entire family lived in streets dotted around Villa Park, and that my gt gt grandfather worked at the lower grounds before we even moved there. Most of my ancestors of that time got married in a church i walk past on my way to the ground.
When I go to matches, one thing that strikes me is that I am looking at the exact same rectangle of grass my ancestors would have looked at for over a century. It really is like a journey back into a personal past.
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Agreed
And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”
And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market
And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)
And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing
No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view
This
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Our biggest challenge when upgrading the stadium is the need to deal with Birmingham City council, who are woefully inept when it comes to road and rail infrastructure (amongst many other things). Let's hope this year's games will serve as a learning curve to getting it right for large events.
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I’ve been supporting Villa for over 60 years and two excerpts from Simon’s book celebrating 100 years of VP sum it up for me: -
“all of us who make that regular pilgrimage to Villa Park tread not only a well worn path through the century, but also through the winding roads of our own personal histories.As we grow from childhood into adulthood…change schools and jobs…move from house to house or town to town, Villa Park remains a constant, helping to nurture our passage through life”
Absolutely with you on this.
I have spent chunks of the last 15 years doing my family history, and already knew that the club went right back to Victorian times in terms of my family's support. I also found out that practically my entire family lived in streets dotted around Villa Park, and that my gt gt grandfather worked at the lower grounds before we even moved there. Most of my ancestors of that time got married in a church i walk past on my way to the ground.
When I go to matches, one thing that strikes me is that I am looking at the exact same rectangle of grass my ancestors would have looked at for over a century. It really is like a journey back into a personal past.
Same for me. When I did my paternal family tree, there were generations of hatches, matches and despatches at Aston Church. All too poor to have any kind of gravestone record.
And my great grandad's ashes were scattered in front of the North Stand, the day after a game back in the early sixties. My dad vividly described the absolute potato field mud bath.
I'm not in the slightest bit religious, but there's something really special about turning the corner towards Villa Park, knowing that I'm literally walking in the footsteps of my ancestors, and keeping the connection to the club alive.
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Name a new ground with a capacity north of 50,000 where you can be away from the ground in 20 minutes. Wembley is the best designed ground in the country in terms of quickly moving people out and it still takes longer than that. Birmingham doesn't have the mass transit system to achieve that no matter where a ground was placed. So in the absence of an obviously better choice Villa Park, being served by two railway stations, a motorway and a major bus route is as good as it's going to get. It just needs some creative thinking.
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As we're getting misty-eyed, whenever I emerge from Queens Road and out from under the Expressway, I'm convinced there is no better approach to a sports venue in the world. The church, the stately home, the Holte pub, the trees, the park, the stadium... it's just perfect. All other directions work as well. Crossing Aston Park and seeing the ground poke out through the trees, the Victorian(ish) terraces to the north. Even from Witton, I think about my dad and his dad making the same journey pre-War.
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Agreed
And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”
And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market
And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)
And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing
No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view
This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.
Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?
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I know plenty of folk around here are familiar with this poem, but I post it as a reminder of the cultural significance, alone, of Villa Park. It's not just the place that has an emotional value, it's the name of the place too. "Villa Park" on the historical site of Villa Park would be the best outcome, for me. The stands in 2035 might all end up being very different to the stands we had in 1935, but it is the place and setting itself that counts. As others have said, generations have experienced the ritual of journeying to Villa Park - and, as Larkin reminds us, it wasn't just to attend a football match that brought people there. The historical and cultural significance of the place, setting and "Villa Park" name should not be underestimated.
MCMXIV (1964)
Phillip Larkin
Those long uneven lines
Standing as patiently
As if they were stretched outside
The Oval or Villa Park,
The crowns of hats, the sun
On moustached archaic faces
Grinning as if it were all
An August Bank Holiday lark;
And the shut shops, the bleached
Established names on the sunblinds,
The farthings and sovereigns,
And dark-clothed children at play
Called after kings and queens,
The tin advertisements
For cocoa and twist, and the pubs
Wide open all day;
And the countryside not caring:
The place-names all hazed over
With flowering grasses, and fields
Shadowing Domesday lines
Under wheat’s restless silence;
The differently-dressed servants
With tiny rooms in huge houses,
The dust behind limousines;
Never such innocence,
Never before or since,
As changed itself to past
Without a word – the men
Leaving the gardens tidy,
The thousands of marriages,
Lasting a little while longer:
Never such innocence again.
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As we're getting misty-eyed, whenever I emerge from Queens Road and out from under the Expressway, I'm convinced there is no better approach to a sports venue in the world. The church, the stately home, the Holte pub, the trees, the park, the stadium... it's just perfect. All other directions work as well. Crossing Aston Park and seeing the ground poke out through the trees, the Victorian(ish) terraces to the north. Even from Witton, I think about my dad and his dad making the same journey pre-War.
May time the walk to Villa Park from under the expressway I agree isn't bettered by any other ground in the world. The sun shining, the Cherry Blossom in full bloom surrounding St Peter & Paul Church, to your left the magnificence of Aston hall towering proudly above all while in front the Holte Hotel Pub doesn't quite fully obscure the place that carries the same name of the man who once upon a time resided in that Magnificent house. Some want to give that up to live like West Ham? Some people need to give their heads a wobble.
Expansion of the ground is possible. Our future success and continued success will force BCC's hand to grant the infrastructure changes needed to allow for expansion of either the Trinity Rd or Witton Lane. Short term,The North Stand could get us to the near 48,000 - 50,000.
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Agreed
And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”
And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market
And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)
And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing
No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view
This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.
Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?
I don’t fear success at all mate
But in my opinion, it doesn’t have to be achieved by selling off the family silver
Modify VP to increase capacity and improve facilities and sort out the transport issues
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Agreed
And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”
And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market
And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)
And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing
No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view
This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.
Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?
I don’t fear success at all mate
But in my opinion, it doesn’t have to be achieved by selling off the family silver
Modify VP to increase capacity and improve facilities and sort out the transport issues
Yes but if we're successful in that improved Villa Park:
What is to stop us from going into every season expecting to win things?
What is to stop us appearing on TV more often and having more games moved to odd times?
What is to stop the atmosphere changing with expectations to the point where there's no atmosphere until we take the lead?
PIck any other complaints and the answer is still the same, your complaints are agianst being part of a new look top 4/6/whatever and not about moving to a new ground. The only thing that links the 2 is that a new ground would, probably, result in a big spike in commercial revenue which would make it easier for us to bridge the gap. The argument is whether that increase could be big enough to make it worth breaking with tradition.
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Paul_e
I actually agree with what you say and it’s your last sentence that is the point I’m trying to make
For me, it is about tradition and heritage and the “right” way of doing things, and I’m proud to be associated with a club that has all of those attributes
I’m a traditionalist and, for me, winning trophies in a stadium that is not Villa Park would not have the same value
I guess I want to have my cake and eat it
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Agreed
And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”
And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market
And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)
And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing
No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view
This is pretty much a textbook definition of fear of success.
Edit: What if we stay at Villa Park and still break into the top 6? Does the ground shield us from all of the other stuff somehow?
I don’t fear success at all mate
But in my opinion, it doesn’t have to be achieved by selling off the family silver
Modify VP to increase capacity and improve facilities and sort out the transport issues
I don't disagree with anyone saying they never want to see us leave Villa Park - the ground IS special, and it's not just Villa fans who think that. We can't just keep modifying Villa Park, however, without running into some pretty major problems.
We can redevelop the North Stand which will give us a limited increase, and probably be okay if we remain at the kind of level we've largely been at for the past 40 years - Premier League regulars, occasionally in Europe with the odd cup win. It won't be enough, however, if we get where NSWE want us to be, and frankly with the lack of competition we have locally we have the opportunity to monopolise local support in the next 10 years if we get it right.
We are one of those families on the waiting list for season tickets - I have mine, but want them for my wife and daughter. Even though both are members, arranging tickets for us to sit together at games at the moment is a real challenge and requires a lot of forward planning - I do think if the ground held 50k right now we would still sell out 90% of the time.
The issue then is how do we get Villa Park significantly beyond 50k. Even disregarding the transport issues, I don't see how we realistically can, given the constraints of the site. I referred to what Liverpool have done to Anfield to get it up to 62k in another post. What that doesn't say is the absolutely shitty, scandalous treatment of their neighbours that the club indulged in over the past 20 years to get to the stage where the redevelopment of their main stand was possible. I'd rather Villa didn't contribute to the degradation of an entire neighbourhood and forcing people out of their homes just so we can add 10,000 seats.
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Then give it a year or two and it'll be the worst thing ever again, and people will want something new (or lament what we had). 😉
When has anybody ever lamented an ex-manager?!
Joe Mercer!
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Chelsea's ground is still traditional and fantastic (in my opinion) and no bigger that VP.
Anything soulless about their success has nothing to do with Stamford Bridge.
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I reckon a new ground would go in a similar way to Gerrard replacing Smith. Everybody would get all angsty about it to begin with, then the first time we smash Liverpool 4-0 there, they can get served with a pie at half time and be away from the ground in 20 minutes at the end, they'd then pretend that they were in favour all along. ;)
Agreed
And then in a couple of years, we will have become one of the “top six” and pre-season threads will be full of “how many trophies will we win this year?”
And all our matches will be on Sky or Amazon at 5:27 on a Thursday to cater for the Far East market
And we will be playing in a 60,000 stadium devoid of any atmosphere (but selling the most wonderful pies)
And we will have become like City and Chelsea - we will know the cost of everything but the value of nothing
No thanks - for all its limitations Villa Park is irreplaceable in my view
Jester hats and half and half scarves for everybody.
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Is there any decent in-depth article about Liverpool's displacement of their neighbours that covers the whole story? I don't remember it generating much noise in the news...maybe cos it happened gradually ?
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Chelsea's ground is still traditional and fantastic (in my opinion) and no bigger that VP.
Anything soulless about their success has nothing to do with Stamford Bridge.
Was about to mention this - them keeping their original, 40k-ish ground while upgrading the bits around the edges (on a piece of land just as small as VP) hasn't really held them back from winning things regularly, has it?
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Is there any decent in-depth article about Liverpool's displacement of their neighbours that covers the whole story? I don't remember it generating much noise in the news...maybe cos it happened gradually ?
There was an awful lot of skullduggery and jiggery pokery
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
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Is there any decent in-depth article about Liverpool's displacement of their neighbours that covers the whole story? I don't remember it generating much noise in the news...maybe cos it happened gradually ?
This is an article from a few years back:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
On the Chelsea question, there are a few things to consider. Firstly, because of where they are they are charging more than us by order of magnitude. I haven't checked, but I'm sure their matchday income is something approaching 3 times ours even without a bigger ground. Next, there is the obvious point that being owned by an oligarch offset the need to expand for a very long time. Finally, and probably most relevantly, is that now they are finding that the size of Stamford Bridge is starting to hamstring them - compared to what Spurs, Arsenal and even West Ham are able to potentially generate, finding a solution to increasing the size of their stadium is becoming a much bigger concern.
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Chelsea's ground is still traditional and fantastic (in my opinion) and no bigger that VP.
Anything soulless about their success has nothing to do with Stamford Bridge.
Was about to mention this - them keeping their original, 40k-ish ground while upgrading the bits around the edges (on a piece of land just as small as VP) hasn't really held them back from winning things regularly, has it?
the difference in their ticket prices compared to ours is fucking huge though so I'm not sure they work all that well as an example.
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Chelsea's ground is still traditional and fantastic (in my opinion) and no bigger that VP.
Anything soulless about their success has nothing to do with Stamford Bridge.
Was about to mention this - them keeping their original, 40k-ish ground while upgrading the bits around the edges (on a piece of land just as small as VP) hasn't really held them back from winning things regularly, has it?
the difference in their ticket prices compared to ours is fucking huge though so I'm not sure they work all that well as an example.
Gate revenue is not where PL clubs make any of their money nowadays though, so it certainly wouldn't be a thing holding back stadium redevelopment for us in comparison to them.
I think the point is more that a traditional style 40-50k capacity ground is still suitable for champions league/PL winning clubs - so there's no need for us to feel like we'd need to build a run of the mill Etihad bowl in order to feel part of that group.
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Copy the Holte at the Witton End as has been suggested on here a few times. You probably could get 14-15k with that design at that end.That gets you up to around 48-50k. I think that would do for the moment.
Is it feasible to do that over a season though and reduce the capacity so significantly? Just think the Alexander Stadium development for the Commonwealth Games might just present a unique opportunity for an alternative venue while work on VP was done.
If you plan it right, you could re-build the North Stand in two halves. Take down the upper tier and facilities at the back during the season and build a new upper tier stand with corporate seating etc., then cordon off the lower tier and turnstiles on Witton Lane and do that during the summer. Limits how much capacity you lose during the season (which must be 6-7k at most in that stand anyway?)
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The issue then is how do we get Villa Park significantly beyond 50k. Even disregarding the transport issues, I don't see how we realistically can, given the constraints of the site. I referred to what Liverpool have done to Anfield to get it up to 62k in another post. What that doesn't say is the absolutely shitty, scandalous treatment of their neighbours that the club indulged in over the past 20 years to get to the stage where the redevelopment of their main stand was possible. I'd rather Villa didn't contribute to the degradation of an entire neighbourhood and forcing people out of their homes just so we can add 10,000 seats.
Witton Lane becomes an underpass.
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Chelsea's ground is still traditional and fantastic (in my opinion) and no bigger that VP.
Anything soulless about their success has nothing to do with Stamford Bridge.
Was about to mention this - them keeping their original, 40k-ish ground while upgrading the bits around the edges (on a piece of land just as small as VP) hasn't really held them back from winning things regularly, has it?
the difference in their ticket prices compared to ours is fucking huge though so I'm not sure they work all that well as an example.
Gate revenue is not where PL clubs make any of their money nowadays though, so it certainly wouldn't be a thing holding back stadium redevelopment for us in comparison to them.
I think the point is more that a traditional style 40-50k capacity ground is still suitable for champions league/PL winning clubs - so there's no need for us to feel like we'd need to build a run of the mill Etihad bowl in order to feel part of that group.
This isn't strictly true though. Although TV money makes up the vast majority of income for most clubs, the fact that it is relatively evenly spread (at least for domestic football), means that to gain an advantage you have to generate income from elsewhere. Aside from sponsorship and partners, matchday income is the biggest way of doing this. To put it into perspective, Spurs and Arsenal can potentially generate nearly £100 million per season from matchday income, and Man Utd (and probably soon Liverpool) in excess of that - without looking too hard, that is roughly 5-6 times the amount we can generate.
I'm not saying that realistically we are going to match them for a host of reasons, however it's not unreasonable to assume that we could/should be doing much better than we are. Long-term, the only way we can close that gap is either a full re-build of Villa Park (which is difficult for a host of reasons), or a move elsewhere which the original article also shows is not easy to do.
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The issue then is how do we get Villa Park significantly beyond 50k. Even disregarding the transport issues, I don't see how we realistically can, given the constraints of the site. I referred to what Liverpool have done to Anfield to get it up to 62k in another post. What that doesn't say is the absolutely shitty, scandalous treatment of their neighbours that the club indulged in over the past 20 years to get to the stage where the redevelopment of their main stand was possible. I'd rather Villa didn't contribute to the degradation of an entire neighbourhood and forcing people out of their homes just so we can add 10,000 seats.
Witton Lane becomes an underpass.
Unless we can build a see-through stand that still won't work.
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Has any one identified any land in central B Ham which would enable a bigger ground and resolve the transport problems?
Based on this and other threads, regardless of the requirements for greater capacity the only way would appear to be the NEC or somewhere similar.
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The issue then is how do we get Villa Park significantly beyond 50k. Even disregarding the transport issues, I don't see how we realistically can, given the constraints of the site. I referred to what Liverpool have done to Anfield to get it up to 62k in another post. What that doesn't say is the absolutely shitty, scandalous treatment of their neighbours that the club indulged in over the past 20 years to get to the stage where the redevelopment of their main stand was possible. I'd rather Villa didn't contribute to the degradation of an entire neighbourhood and forcing people out of their homes just so we can add 10,000 seats.
Witton Lane becomes an underpass.
Unless we can build a see-through stand that still won't work.
Exactly. Building over the road isn't necessarily a problem (although you'd need to consider right to light for the houses in the streets on that side given the ground is to the south of them) but it still wouldn't fix the size of the concourse which remains tiny unless the road is closed/diverted.
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The issue then is how do we get Villa Park significantly beyond 50k. Even disregarding the transport issues, I don't see how we realistically can, given the constraints of the site. I referred to what Liverpool have done to Anfield to get it up to 62k in another post. What that doesn't say is the absolutely shitty, scandalous treatment of their neighbours that the club indulged in over the past 20 years to get to the stage where the redevelopment of their main stand was possible. I'd rather Villa didn't contribute to the degradation of an entire neighbourhood and forcing people out of their homes just so we can add 10,000 seats.
Witton Lane becomes an underpass.
Unless we can build a see-through stand that still won't work.
Increase the depth of the North Stand to similar to the Holte. Likewise the Witton Lane Stand. Maybe we need to dispense with the boxes in the North Stand to get us the extra 8,000 to get us to the 50,000. Above all, we stay at Villa Park for the rest of my lifetime anyway.
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In an ideal world, we'd rebuild the ground onsite but moving it back towards Witton which would give us more width to play with.
It would be possible if we had a decent local alternative to use in the meantime, but there you go.
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To help with transport problems we could have a big park and ride site. There is a lot of waste land at the bottom of Coventry Road that could be used which only needs the demolition of a few old sheds.
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To help with transport problems we could have a big park and ride site. There is a lot of waste land at the bottom of Coventry Road that could be used which only needs the demolition of a few old sheds.
The cost of decontamination is the problem, and why it's been left to rot. They have the same issue with old petrol stations.
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To help with transport problems we could have a big park and ride site. There is a lot of waste land at the bottom of Coventry Road that could be used which only needs the demolition of a few old sheds.
The cost of decontamination is the problem, and why it's been left to rot. They have the same issue with old petrol stations.
Fat Bazza Fry's pish wasn't up to the daunting task of disinfection, and the site remains well poxed.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/apr/25/the-knowledge-football-curses
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To help with transport problems we could have a big park and ride site. There is a lot of waste land at the bottom of Coventry Road that could be used which only needs the demolition of a few old sheds.
The cost of decontamination is the problem, and why it's been left to rot. They have the same issue with old petrol stations.
Fat Bazza Fry's pish wasn't up to the daunting task of disinfection, and the site remains well poxed.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/apr/25/the-knowledge-football-curses
Needs to become a sinkhole about 6 miles deep - somewhere to store their bullshit
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Another consideration:
£100m for an amazing North Stand AND continued investment in the squad v £750m on a new stadium?
It is a big ask to expect our owners to deliver both.
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Another consideration:
£100m for an amazing North Stand AND continued investment in the squad v £750m on a new stadium?
It is a big ask to expect our owners to deliver both.
You're right of course but we can dream that costs nothing. I like the underpass idea but I'd do it on the Aston park side. That way the Holte and the Trinity could be squared off properly. Then the Trinity would go all the way round to met up with the Witton Lane stand. Would get us into the high 50s I reckon.
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In an ideal world, we'd rebuild the ground onsite but moving it back towards Witton which would give us more width to play with.
It would be possible if we had a decent local alternative to use in the meantime, but there you go.
The alexander stadium could have done that job for a season.
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One advatage to moving would be that we don't need to concern ourselves anymore with how many decades/centuries it's been since we beat the Red Scum at VP. The clock would reset with a new stadium.
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Oxford definition of a "Villa"
A large country house in its own grounds.
To me the Villa in Aston Villa IS Villa Park. Without Villa Park we aren't Villa. And without Villa Park we aren't in Aston.
By all means build a new stadium on an old industrial site and whilst we're at it rebrand it as Birmingham United as that will give us greater global appeal so all our new "fans" can relate to us.
Fuck that. Come up with a plan to expand the football ground into a ruddy great big redbrick fortress of doom. A massive citadel with sky-high stands packed to the rafters where sad soccer franchise followers come and shit themselves in front of a wall of sound.
In front of it a statue of McGregor with the inscription below "We invented it you ******, now fuck off"
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Just a thought. I wonder how other clubs in the PL are fairing on the issue of public transport on matchdays.
Are they getting support from local infrastructure franchise holders?
Do any other clubs use Park & Ride schemes to good effect?
Oh, and in case I wasn't clear earlier on, I'm definitely a remainer on this subject.
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A really interesting article.
Ill apologise now as i havent read the whole thread, so these comments may be repeated earlier.
I understand the need to expand, 18,000 waiting for a season ticket is both lost revenue, but far more importantly, its a huge group of potential lifelong Villa Park attendees not able to get into the ground, this cant be a situation that is longstanding, as it could mean a lost generation of match day supporters. Thats presuming we don’t go backwards and attendances fall.
I also understand that if we want to eventually compete with the Man City’s, Chelseas and Liverpools of this world, we need to develop on a number of fronts, not just the playing side, but the whole infra structure including the corporate side.
But saying all of that, on many threads on this site, many of us, including people commenting on this thread have bemoaned the souless corporate enterprises the likes of Man City have become. Ive been to the Etihad, lovely to look at once your inside, completely devoid of atsmophere, same as the Emirates and i could go on.
Villa Park may not be perfect and redevelopment may be fraught with the difficulties as laid out in the article. But Villa Park is our heart and sole.
I think the analogies of moving house are misplaced and similar to the Torys equating household budgets to managing the economy in their early days in power. People may be attached to their houses, but we’re talking about Villa Park that generations of us before we were born went to. I don’t care if i’m sentimental, sometimes we’re not sentimental enough. A club like Villa, our history distinguishes from the majority of clubs in the football league and Villa Park is integral to that.
Villa Park is one of the last iconic grounds in English football and i don’t know about anyone else i love the fact that its visible from the M6.
The area has changed, the public transport is shite at the moment, but those things are open to improvement and development with political change and will.
The thought of going down to an edge of city bowl leaves me frankly empty inside.