Summer Transfer Thread and Gustavo Cisneros Type Rumours.

[Sexual Ealing]

Make a change, after Smith has gone mid-table Championship, to promotion, to survival, to mid table Premier League in consecutive seasons?  Sweet baby Jesus.

Without at all calling for him to be replaced, it is obvious that doing that and breaking into the top tier of the division require different skills - I mean, my God, how many times has Steve Bruce won promotion or finished midtable in the PL? I struggle to see how everyone can accept that players can be good up to a certain point, but not acknowledge that managers can be the same.

Because they can see the evidence with players no longer being quite good enough. All DS has done is improve us year-on-year. If we're near the bottom halfway through the season then I think most people would see a case for getting somebody else in.

[Monty]

Does he have to go dramatically backwards? Or would middling around and lacking any recognisable style or making the same mistakes over again count as well? There's also an eye test to pass here, which is one that Solskjaer, for instance, is failing. I'm not saying that Smith has failed it at all, but he's yet to prove he can move beyond where we are - especially without Grealish.

[Ian.]

A good, sensible post, Smithy. Not to mention any names, of course, but I doubt it'll be popular with some of the posters on this thread, lacking as it does histrionics, over-simplification and entitled petulance.

Agree 100% on both counts.

Yes very said Smithy.

[Ketzster]

Ramboandbruno You are correct about certain posters coming out as anti Smith at any given opportunity
And that is the knub of the matter it’s at the right at the heart of everything We discuss
I am probably one of those posters but I don’t see myself as anti Smith i am just not as convinced as others

My own position is very simple and I’ve said many times on here Jack Grealish is why we are where we are without him Smith wouldn’t even be in a job imo
I know there’s no such thing as a one-man team as every team has 11 players but we were close as you could get to it

Now the question is can Smith take us into the top half, top eight, top six without Grealish
We talk about the project we talk about The quest for European spots
But the evidence so far with a Smith team without Grealish is not good

Hand on heart I don’t think he’s good enough to take us into the top six
I don’t think that’s anti Smith I think that’s just me being honest About how far he can take us
Like certain players Hourahine, Hutton, Albert You need them to get you so far but then they aren’t good enough to get you further and it’s the same with managers

Now I’m not looking for Smith to fail I want him to succeed believe me more than anything
I’ve been a wrong loads of times before and I wouldn’t mind being wrong this time either
Yes I know he’s done everything he’s been asked of so far but like I say he’s had one of the best players in the world helping him out
We are spending hundreds of millions So the demands are high

Anyone else thinking the same as I do raises the question of
When do you say goodbye
Who do you bring in

Honestly I don’t know but we’re not there yet I’m not calling for him to go I’m just saying I’m not convinced he can take us ultimately to where we want to be
I know posters will take this as a personal affront and it’s not it’s just me Voicing what I’m thinking about where I think we are at that moment

I agree. Of course those that think Smith isn’t good enough want to be proven wrong. But, it’s hard to see how they will be. Like you say, the record without Grealish is extremely poor and on Saturday for example, despite the injuries, he had an opportunity to show that he could adapt and change formation accordingly. He didn’t, instead keeping his 4-3-3 and putting Ashley Young in central midfield. We all say he should do this, do that regarding formation but we all know it will 4-3-3 in some form, no matter who is available. Looking at the next 6 games, things could look pretty bleak after 10 games. We know things aren’t good under Smith without Grealish, and as unfair as it may seem to some, I think that it would have been better to be proactive rather than get to 10 games and see the same thing happening again. This time Grealish isn’t going to come back to rescue him

[Sexual Ealing]

Does he have to go dramatically backwards? Or would middling around and lacking any recognisable style or making the same mistakes over again count as well? There's an eye test to pass as well, which is one that Solskjaer, for instance, is failing. I'm not saying that Smith has failed it at all, but he's yet to prove he can move beyond where we are - especially without Grealish.

He's had three injury/Covid-ravaged games! If he's to fail to improve us then he'll need time to prove that, just as he will to take us higher.

[Big Ming]

If we don't stiffen up the centre of midfield, the better sides (and even some of the lesser sides) are going to walk straight through us and cause big problems, as we have already seen. We need to win, keep and distribute the ball far better than we have managed to date.

Or else another season of desperately hacking it clear from defence and watching it come rebounding straight back again.

[ozzjim]

Does he have to go dramatically backwards? Or would middling around and lacking any recognisable style or making the same mistakes over again count as well? There's an eye test to pass as well, which is one that Solskjaer, for instance, is failing. I'm not saying that Smith has failed it at all, but he's yet to prove he can move beyond where we are - especially without Grealish.

He's had three injury/Covid-ravaged games! If he's to fail to improve us then he'll need time to prove that, just as he will to take us higher.

He's had 3 spells without him when injured for significant periods, and averaged bottom 6 form each time.

[Monty]

Does he have to go dramatically backwards? Or would middling around and lacking any recognisable style or making the same mistakes over again count as well? There's an eye test to pass as well, which is one that Solskjaer, for instance, is failing. I'm not saying that Smith has failed it at all, but he's yet to prove he can move beyond where we are - especially without Grealish.

He's had three injury/Covid-ravaged games! If he's to fail to improve us then he'll need time to prove that, just as he will to take us higher.

I didn't mean he's had the chance! Just that it's hard to infer anything all that promising from his non-Jack record. Nothing particularly negative, either, because again he hadn't had the chance to seriously build without him yet. But if there's doubt about his ability to move the club on without Grealish, it's hardly based on sugar-rush Twittery impatience alone.

[Sexual Ealing]

Does he have to go dramatically backwards? Or would middling around and lacking any recognisable style or making the same mistakes over again count as well? There's an eye test to pass as well, which is one that Solskjaer, for instance, is failing. I'm not saying that Smith has failed it at all, but he's yet to prove he can move beyond where we are - especially without Grealish.

He's had three injury/Covid-ravaged games! If he's to fail to improve us then he'll need time to prove that, just as he will to take us higher.

He's had 3 spells without him when injured for significant periods, and averaged bottom 6 form each time.

I wasn't talking necessarily about the Man City lad. We've signed some players of a higher quality that we didn't have last season, or the one before, so let's see how they do.

[Dave]

Make a change, after Smith has gone mid-table Championship, to promotion, to survival, to mid table Premier League in consecutive seasons?  Sweet baby Jesus.

Without at all calling for him to be replaced, it is obvious that doing that and breaking into the top tier of the division require different skills - I mean, my God, how many times has Steve Bruce won promotion or finished midtable in the PL? I struggle to see how everyone can accept that players can be good up to a certain point, but not acknowledge that managers can be the same.

Because they can see the evidence with players no longer being quite good enough. All DS has done is improve us year-on-year. If we're near the bottom halfway through the season then I think most people would see a case for getting somebody else in.

People see it at different speeds with managers as well though. There were plenty of people who saw through O'Neill and his faults and thought them reason enough to bin him out a long time before we did, even while the majority in here (me included) were still pointing at small improvements. Turns out the impatient types were right on that one and we actually should been cold and cut him loose a good couple of years before most supporters would have called for it.

Obviously the year-on-year improvements that Smith has brought are large and noticeable, not small and incremental. But I think Monty's point is perfectly sound.

[Sexual Ealing]

Does he have to go dramatically backwards? Or would middling around and lacking any recognisable style or making the same mistakes over again count as well? There's an eye test to pass as well, which is one that Solskjaer, for instance, is failing. I'm not saying that Smith has failed it at all, but he's yet to prove he can move beyond where we are - especially without Grealish.

He's had three injury/Covid-ravaged games! If he's to fail to improve us then he'll need time to prove that, just as he will to take us higher.

I didn't mean he's had the chance! Just that it's hard to infer anything all that promising from his non-Jack record. Nothing particularly negative, either, because again he hadn't had the chance to seriously build without him yet. But if there's doubt about his ability to move the club on without Grealish, it's hardly based on sugar-rush Twittery impatience alone.

Sure. I'd just rather we make decisions based on results achieved (or not achieved) with the new squad rather than on hunches.

[Sexual Ealing]

Make a change, after Smith has gone mid-table Championship, to promotion, to survival, to mid table Premier League in consecutive seasons?  Sweet baby Jesus.

Without at all calling for him to be replaced, it is obvious that doing that and breaking into the top tier of the division require different skills - I mean, my God, how many times has Steve Bruce won promotion or finished midtable in the PL? I struggle to see how everyone can accept that players can be good up to a certain point, but not acknowledge that managers can be the same.

Because they can see the evidence with players no longer being quite good enough. All DS has done is improve us year-on-year. If we're near the bottom halfway through the season then I think most people would see a case for getting somebody else in.

Obviously the year-on-year improvements that Smith has brought are large and noticeable, not small and incremental. But I think Monty's point is perfectly sound.

Monty's point is perfectly sound in that, yes, it's possible he's taken us as far as he can. My point is also perfectly sound, in that we don't know one way or the other so let DS prove it to us either way.

[ozzjim]

I don't think anyone is saying sack him. They are saying they don't have confidence, based on the style of play, decisions made, squad he's built etc, that he will take us to top 10/ 6. I think all of them would happily give him all the time possible to show he can, and all are desperately hoping he does. We are allowed to say how we think it will go, share our concerns for the season etc, without wanting him sacked or being accused of histrionics. In ten games if we are comfortable in mid table and look like we are starting to gel, I think 90% of us will be delighted.

[Demitri_C]

With Guilbert why are we not pushing to sell him ffs? Loans dont benefit us at all. Lets get some cash in for him. As clearly smith dont want him here

[Monty]

Of course, he'll have the chance to prove it, anything else would be Jesus Gil territory. In the question of how optimistic we are, well, there have been done very unpromising signs so far and in the past, but there are several mitigations for these, and you have to decide which weigh heavier for you. For various reasons, my worries are outweighing the mitigations, but I'd absolutely love it if they were unfounded in the end.