Villa Park Redevelopment

[AV82EC]

So are we saying that none of this is going to happen due to the contingent element of trains being sorted out, unlikely to materialise?

It’s the station that needs sorting, you can sort the trains afterwards. Though as ever any sorting of the station will have to be done with the notoriously awful Network Rail as the Project Manager. Network Rail are good at plenty of stuff but delivering station infrastructure improvements even stuff as basic as what’s required at Witton at pace and to budget and deadlines isn’t one of them. I’m hopeful rather than confident.

There is essentially a big loop from New Street, up to Aston and the Walsall track to Perry Barr, then back down around into the other side of New Street. Obviously capacity at New Street is always an issue but Specials for the Euros could always be put on that way.

I know that and quite like the idea but as you have already said where are the extra paths, trains, drivers etc etc coming from to deliver it. Our heavy rail system in Birmingham is massively massively constrained by all sorts of factors but we’re getting off topic here so I’ll shut up.

[LeeS]

Just looking at the Doug Ellis. Surely we could cantilever another entire tier on the top of that and have it sat above the road. It might block a little evening sunlight from the houses behind, but it wouldn’t require them to be knocked down.

[Somniloquism]

I know that and quite like the idea but as you have already said where are the extra paths, trains, drivers etc etc coming from to deliver it. Our heavy rail system in Birmingham is massively massively constrained by all sorts of factors but we’re getting off topic here so I’ll shut up.

That is something to be worked out for the Euros really. With 50k of mostly non-locals / non-nationals, there won't be many people driving so public transport / trains will need to be well in order at that time. After that the improvements will help the stop the bottlenecks under the road bridge on matchdays as people are forced to queue on the ramps and block the footpaths, but won't be as needed any other time so won't need to worry about rail capacities as much.

[PeterWithe]

So, for the rail experts. When NS was rebuilt a few years ago, did they only do the buildings, they didn't put any more capacity into the rail itself? Or they did and its already been used up?

[Somniloquism]

So, for the rail experts. When NS was rebuilt a few years ago, did they only do the buildings, they didn't put any more capacity into the rail itself? Or they did and its already been used up?

The put in extra capacity for people and exits etc, but the lines couldn't be changed as it is tunnels in and out on both sides. Bullring foundations on one side, and the cross city tunnels exiting at fiveways and the NIA at the other meant no more extra lines either end.

[chrisw1]

I know that and quite like the idea but as you have already said where are the extra paths, trains, drivers etc etc coming from to deliver it. Our heavy rail system in Birmingham is massively massively constrained by all sorts of factors but we’re getting off topic here so I’ll shut up.

That is something to be worked out for the Euros really. With 50k of mostly non-locals / non-nationals, there won't be many people driving so public transport / trains will need to be well in order at that time. After that the improvements will help the stop the bottlenecks under the road bridge on matchdays as people are forced to queue on the ramps and block the footpaths, but won't be as needed any other time so won't need to worry about rail capacities as much.

For the Euros they can put on fleets of coaches like they did for the commonwealth games.  Not a sustainable option for home games generally, but for one-off matches during the tournament, it seems an obvious solution.

[PeterWithe]

Ta

[AV82EC]

So, for the rail experts. When NS was rebuilt a few years ago, did they only do the buildings, they didn't put any more capacity into the rail itself? Or they did and its already been used up?

Yep it was a tart up job for the station concourse which actually made it worse. In addition there was no new capacity created at New Street to provide better services both outwith and within the Midlands. Improvements to Moor Street would help somewhat including actually doing the bloody Camp Hill Curves but until HS2 comes New St is full and at capacity.

The best thing Brum could do is knock down the shopping centre over the top of the station which might give the ability to build another level of station over the top as per Berlin Hauptbahnhof but that would involve the government actually spending money outside London and we would still have the constraint of the track bottleneck either side of the station.

I saw a Network Rail Future strategy report for Brum/WM a while back and it had some very good ideas for improving things and even suggested with future growth that Birmingham desperately needs a fourth city centre station to meet demand (in addition to Curzon St).

[PeterWithe]

A Google of 'Camp Hill Curves' leaves me none the wiser?

[Somniloquism]

For the Euros they can put on fleets of coaches like they did for the commonwealth games.  Not a sustainable option for home games generally, but for one-off matches during the tournament, it seems an obvious solution.

They also added lots of extra trains and improved the Perry Barr station for all the extra people. The same as planned for Witton.

[PeterWithesShin]

Stop fannying around with trains and build an underground shuttle. Think big NSWE ffs.

[Somniloquism]

A Google of 'Camp Hill Curves' leaves me none the wiser?

I'm guessing the connector for that line into Moor Street instead of into New Street.

[AV82EC]

Sorry. Bordesley West and East chords which would connect the Camp Hill line into Moor St instead of New St and also mean all the Nottingham and Derby East Midlands stuff could go into Moor St instead of New St.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bordesley_Chords_current_layout_2023.png

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Hill_line#/media/File%3ABordesley_Chords_indicative_layout_2023.png

Hope that helps.

[The Edge]

I think my standpoint that Aterios buying shares in us absolutely, definately, catagorically means that we are building a new ground, can be temporarily put to one side.

But but but they still haven't put a spade in the ground on the Smithfield site in town....

[paul_e]

All of this is why a proper HS2 network was so important for the city, any trains that can be diverted out of new street are gold dust for local rail.