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Author Topic: Villa Park Redevelopment  (Read 528807 times)

Online john e

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #510 on: May 30, 2021, 01:32:27 PM »
I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldn’t be right.

When the new Holte was built I don’t think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road.  So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k.  Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
Looks like the Yellow Wall has a couple of corners if you look closely - so maybe they include that in their capacity.

Anyhow with a bit of ingenuity they could build a 20k single tier Holte and it would be full.
The corners are definitely added to the capacity of the yellow wall. At a guess I'd say the corners add about 7/8,000 between them . Much like the old Kop at Liverpool. It held 28,000 officially but it wrapped right round both sides of the ground so for me it wasn't a true figure of an "end" like the Holte End was. First time I saw the Kop for myself I was shocked how small it was compared to our Holte End.

Yeah same for me
76/77 first time I saw the Kop and Stretford end for that matter

Proper piss pooling stands compared to the Holte

Offline chrisw1

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #511 on: June 01, 2021, 01:02:42 PM »
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?

Offline FatSam

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #512 on: June 01, 2021, 03:58:23 PM »
Max capacity with that plan 50,734.

I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
Me too.

It's interesting to see these options because they haven't been made public as far as I'm aware. It looks like a relatively crude optioneering process from a design perspective, but the comparative costs and capacities obviously have some science behind them.

The idea of trying to shoehorn a bowl-like stadium onto the current site worries me a lot - it would be fighting against the innate character of the ground. I think that the CGI of this option looks like a poor man's St James Park, which would be an intense disappointment. It also assumes that the new Trinity Road stand is the best template for a future north stand, which I'm not sure it is. I'm sceptical about the idea that Doug's penny-pinching approach to ground redevelopment has left no room for improvement. Much better to celebrate that Villa Park has, since losing the cycle track, and Leitch's interventions, been a four-sided football ground. It's worth remembering that a constituent of West Ham and even Arsenal supporters to a lesser extent, regret losing the character and identity of their previous grounds.

I would argue that Liverpool's plans for the Anfield Road End, which have been delayed by Covid, offer a better direction. This two-tier stand will have a 16k capacity - higher than the Kop. The same footprint would fit on the space available at the Witton End at VP, and would increase the total capacity to approx 53k. It could provide better family, corporate and away facilities, and allow for subsequent redevelopment of the Witton Lane.

Online The Edge

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #513 on: June 01, 2021, 04:51:54 PM »
Max capacity with that plan 50,734.

I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
Me too.

It's interesting to see these options because they haven't been made public as far as I'm aware. It looks like a relatively crude optioneering process from a design perspective, but the comparative costs and capacities obviously have some science behind them.

The idea of trying to shoehorn a bowl-like stadium onto the current site worries me a lot - it would be fighting against the innate character of the ground. I think that the CGI of this option looks like a poor man's St James Park, which would be an intense disappointment. It also assumes that the new Trinity Road stand is the best template for a future north stand, which I'm not sure it is. I'm sceptical about the idea that Doug's penny-pinching approach to ground redevelopment has left no room for improvement. Much better to celebrate that Villa Park has, since losing the cycle track, and Leitch's interventions, been a four-sided football ground. It's worth remembering that a constituent of West Ham and even Arsenal supporters to a lesser extent, regret losing the character and identity of their previous grounds.

I would argue that Liverpool's plans for the Anfield Road End, which have been delayed by Covid, offer a better direction. This two-tier stand will have a 16k capacity - higher than the Kop. The same footprint would fit on the space available at the Witton End at VP, and would increase the total capacity to approx 53k. It could provide better family, corporate and away facilities, and allow for subsequent redevelopment of the Witton Lane.
I agree with all of this and I believe it's the way to go. There's plenty of land behind the stadium to add a "Box Park" at Wembley type of entertainment venue. The new Brookvale academy development could solve any parking issues which could be utilised on matchdays with a ferrying system for the short trip to the ground. And one more thing: while they're at it I'd love them to sort out the messy corner between the Lower Witton Lane and the Lower Holte where we lose a few hundred seats. Mr penny pincher left his mark there. With some modern engineering it shouldn't be too difficult to resolve.

Offline chrisw1

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #514 on: June 01, 2021, 05:11:37 PM »
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.


Offline eamonn

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #515 on: June 01, 2021, 05:13:39 PM »
Bring Tony back with his smart-city idea. Gabby as the face to front it.

Offline Des Little

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #516 on: June 01, 2021, 05:16:01 PM »
The new plans need to incorporate an Ali Baba Megastore as well.

Offline FatSam

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #517 on: June 01, 2021, 05:38:09 PM »
im surprised a stand-alone stand option 3 seems to be the best value option. $16m cheaper than option 1 with only about 700 less seats.

re there any images available of it?

The images of options 1 & 2 look great

Options 2 and 3 involve demolishing part of the current Trinity Road Stand, so Option 1 involves building more seats to reach a similar capacity to Option 3. This is why the build costs are higher.

Options 1 and 2 seem to accommodate more hospitality, which brings higher revenue, but I can't believe that wouldn't be possible with a variation on Option 3. For a start off, I'd suggest a standalone should aim to be c. 2.5k seats larger than they have indicated (to achieve a similar capacity to the proposed Anfield Road End). I'm also not completely convinced that the bowl corner in Options 2 and 3, which reduces the separation from the houses to the south, would be acceptable. The view of the sky from these properties would be further reduced.

Online The Edge

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #518 on: June 01, 2021, 06:32:20 PM »
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

Offline Dante Lavelli

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #519 on: June 01, 2021, 06:45:37 PM »
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think there’s also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park. 

Online The Edge

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #520 on: June 01, 2021, 06:57:23 PM »
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think there’s also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.

Offline Ad@m

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #521 on: June 01, 2021, 07:06:45 PM »
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?

Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.

Offline cdbearsfan

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #522 on: June 01, 2021, 07:07:50 PM »
Yeah. The suggestion that standing=greater capacity is only really true in new builds.

Offline chrisw1

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #523 on: June 01, 2021, 07:20:55 PM »
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?

Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.
What if there's already enough to cope with a higher capacity?  I'm not saying there is, but surely an analysis has to be done?

Offline algy

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Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
« Reply #524 on: June 01, 2021, 07:24:54 PM »
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
Because people don't generally visit Wembley every week, and when they do it's a bit of an event.

 


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