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Author Topic: VAR  (Read 343481 times)

Online Dogtanian

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Re: VAR
« Reply #480 on: September 16, 2019, 08:20:17 AM »
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure.

Offline AllanW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #481 on: September 16, 2019, 09:22:58 AM »
As much as I appreciated the cultural reference and chuckled (frankly most referees have looked like aliens to me for years) a serious point remains; how do we stop awful refereeing ruining games?
 
-   It DOES matter when they make mistakes
-   They DON’T even-out over a season
-   It’s not good enough

We all deserve better. I’m pretty sure the clubs are as peed-off about the standard of refereeing as we are on the terraces. The players are as well, they have known for years what the numpties who administer the game on the pitch are like. The only people who force everyone else to suffer these awful performances week-in-week-out are the league administrators who support the referees organisation. They’re the ones we should put pressure on for change. They’re the ones who can make the difference.

Because the referees themselves sure as hell won’t, look at the mess they’re making of VAR so far.

Offline Ad@m

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Re: VAR
« Reply #482 on: September 18, 2019, 12:27:52 PM »
Another VAR mess last night.  Whilst it warms the heart to see Liverpool lose the penalty they conceded was a joke.  The diving little bastard was going down long before he hit the defender's leg but because the ref gave it and it wasn't a "clear and obvious error" the penalty stands.

IFAB's obsession with avoiding "re-referreeing" matches is going to be the death of VAR.  Where VAR works well, cricket and tennis, they have no qualms with overriding the onfield refs because the most important thing is getting the decision right.  Cricket allows a bit of leeway for the inherent inaccuracies in the technology (ie umpire's call) but it's clearly explained - football isn't doing that, it's just implying the onfield ref is always right unless he's catastrophically wrong.

VAR is failing in it's sole objective - to cut down on debate over referreeing decisions - and if it can't do that, why would the watching world accept it's continued use?

Online paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #483 on: September 18, 2019, 01:34:07 PM »
I think the problem is more complex than that and comes down to trust. In other sports there is a greater degree of trust between officials, players and fans so when a marginal call goes with the ref it feels reasonable (outside of the moment, at the time it's very easy to get angry over it). In football that trust is missing, the most obvious evidence of it is that VAR happens in secret, any discussion or review is done in silence and the fans and players only see the aftermath of it. From the side of the officials I don't think they trust the technology to not undermine them and slow the game down too much and create problems by it becoming very stop-start so they're trying to take decisions out of the hands of VAR (Friend booking Jack being the best example of this).

In both cases putting the system onto speakers and having a live discussion that the fans can hear would go a long way to building that trust because the accountability would help fans and players understand the decisions but it would also help the officials realise that the anger directed to them is due to secrecy and inconsistency.

Offline AllanW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #484 on: September 18, 2019, 02:32:18 PM »
From the side of the officials I don't think they trust the technology to not undermine them

I'm always eager to listen to the reasoned, calm and objective points you make. But in the case above isn't that just another way of saying 'agree with the decision on the pitch whether it's right or wrong'?

If referees really do adopt that point of view then THEY are the problem, aren't they? Never accepting that you made a mistake is a fundamentally flawed stance because it is always wrong; humans make mistakes. It becomes terminal for them when we can see the pictures and watch the mistakes for ourselves.

Online paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #485 on: September 18, 2019, 02:52:07 PM »
From the side of the officials I don't think they trust the technology to not undermine them

I'm always eager to listen to the reasoned, calm and objective points you make. But in the case above isn't that just another way of saying 'agree with the decision on the pitch whether it's right or wrong'?

If referees really do adopt that point of view then THEY are the problem, aren't they? Never accepting that you made a mistake is a fundamentally flawed stance because it is always wrong; humans make mistakes. It becomes terminal for them when we can see the pictures and watch the mistakes for ourselves.

There's definitely an extent of that which is why the mindset of the officials has to be changed from seeing VAR as competition to seeing it as another tool to get the decision right. Imagine the game where assistant referees weren't a thing until suddenly being introduced to a game with wall-to-wall coverage as we have now. I suspect you'd have had similar issues with the ref trying to show 'who was boss' and ignoring flags or doing their best to make decisions before the assistant could step in.

Back to VAR I think that, by making the process more transparent and showing that it ensures correct decisions you'll see referees adapt, especially if it leads to fans being less hostile towards them. I just think the whole concept would work better if everyone understood it better. The arguments on here and more importantly on Social Media, show pretty clearly that the version of VAR that's in place just isn't understood very well.

Online Drummond

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Re: VAR
« Reply #486 on: September 18, 2019, 04:30:33 PM »
From the side of the officials I don't think they trust the technology to not undermine them

I'm always eager to listen to the reasoned, calm and objective points you make. But in the case above isn't that just another way of saying 'agree with the decision on the pitch whether it's right or wrong'?

If referees really do adopt that point of view then THEY are the problem, aren't they? Never accepting that you made a mistake is a fundamentally flawed stance because it is always wrong; humans make mistakes. It becomes terminal for them when we can see the pictures and watch the mistakes for ourselves.

There's definitely an extent of that which is why the mindset of the officials has to be changed from seeing VAR as competition to seeing it as another tool to get the decision right. Imagine the game where assistant referees weren't a thing until suddenly being introduced to a game with wall-to-wall coverage as we have now. I suspect you'd have had similar issues with the ref trying to show 'who was boss' and ignoring flags or doing their best to make decisions before the assistant could step in.

Back to VAR I think that, by making the process more transparent and showing that it ensures correct decisions you'll see referees adapt, especially if it leads to fans being less hostile towards them. I just think the whole concept would work better if everyone understood it better. The arguments on here and more importantly on Social Media, show pretty clearly that the version of VAR that's in place just isn't understood very well.

Which bit of it don't you understand?

Offline AllanW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #487 on: September 18, 2019, 04:31:48 PM »
I just think the whole concept would work better if everyone understood it better.

Well I hate to disagree but I don't think the problem with referees and VAR at the moment is that WE are ignorant; it's that it fails to deliver fewer poor decisions.

Online paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #488 on: September 18, 2019, 05:25:04 PM »
Which bit of it don't you understand?

Nothing, but given the amount of people who wanted VAR to reward the Lansbury goal or who've complained about it other decisions I suspect there's a lot of people who don't understand it, which was my point.

I just think the whole concept would work better if everyone understood it better.

Well I hate to disagree but I don't think the problem with referees and VAR at the moment is that WE are ignorant; it's that it fails to deliver fewer poor decisions.

That's not what I'm saying. Whilst people are getting used to VAR I think being able to hear the conversations would make the process feel better and by being 'public' it would be harder for the officials to 'circle the wagons' and protect a bad a decision, which would force the ref in the middle to actually use the tool to ensure they get the decision right. That way VAR actually becomes protection for the ref because they have to present their thoughts on a incident live and have them confirmed, which should have exactly the effect you want of reducing the number of bad decisions.

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: VAR
« Reply #489 on: September 22, 2019, 07:41:25 PM »
And what is the point of VAR if at the end of the game we weren’t given a penalty for handball?

Offline TheMalandro

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Re: VAR
« Reply #490 on: September 22, 2019, 07:46:23 PM »
And what is the point of VAR if at the end of the game we weren’t given a penalty for handball?

My paid for, genuine video stopped at that moment. Please tell me it wasn’t another shite decision.

Offline LukeJames

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Re: VAR
« Reply #491 on: September 22, 2019, 07:52:07 PM »
It could probably have been given but I wouldnt call this one a glaring mistake.

Offline Villa75

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Re: VAR
« Reply #492 on: September 22, 2019, 07:53:07 PM »
And what is the point of VAR if at the end of the game we weren’t given a penalty for handball?

Because the only people who thought it was a penalty were some Villa fans, and that's not how VAR works?

Just a guess mind you.

Offline sirlordbaltimore

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Re: VAR
« Reply #493 on: September 22, 2019, 07:58:03 PM »
And what is the point of VAR if at the end of the game we weren’t given a penalty for handball?

I didn't think it was a penalty full stop. Nor the one when Jack kicked it against his own arm.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: VAR
« Reply #494 on: September 22, 2019, 08:02:32 PM »
It could probably have been given but I wouldnt call this one a glaring mistake.

It's the sort that would've been given in the european cup. See some of the handballs that were given last season.

I think those awards were way too harsh and think for once with premier league and VAR they have got the template right.

 


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