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Author Topic: VAR  (Read 343597 times)

Offline paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #765 on: October 23, 2019, 11:08:55 AM »
The other difference with rugby is that a try depends on the ball being grounded, which is quite often hard for the referee to see properly if there's 4 or 5 players on top of the person trying to score the try.  With football, that isn't the case and goal-line technology has easily eradicated the question of whether the ball has crossed the line or not.  On Saturday, Conor had clearly lashed the ball into the net.  The referee rightly gave the goal, and nobody was complaining about it.  For VAR to then overrule it, was both wrong, and also against the spirit of the so-called "high bar".

I'd guess the equivalent though is something like the Grealish booking at Palace, all 3 decisions (penalty, dive or nothing) were possible there and it's hard, on a single viewing, to know what was correct. If the system was setup properly play could've carried on until after Lansbury scored and then a quick review could've decided if there 'was any reason not to award the goal' and they'd make a call on it. You can use similar logic for handball leading to a goal. Rugby and cricket both handle the grey area well with rugby centred of the nature of the question ("try: yes or no?" vs "any reason not to award the try?") and Cricket using umpire's call.


You could easily apply both in football,  give a margin of error for offside (so the flag is the on-field decision and that decision has to be clearly demonstrated as wrong outside a margin of error for the tech) and for other offences the ref can say "I'm thinking goal/no goal because of {reason}, can you prove me wrong?". So in the example you gave, "I'm giving the goal because I don't think there's a foul on the keeper, can you show conclusive evidence of foul play by the striker?" and then the VAR has to show that the decision of the ref was wrong. With all of that happening on open comms, even if we disagree with the end result, the reasons for changing the decision are clear.

Offline paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #766 on: October 23, 2019, 11:11:06 AM »
Yes but that's why it's worth doing. The game as a whole will benefit enormously.

Completely agree, that's what I was getting at. This should be an opportunity for refs to improve their reputation with the fans, but the shocking implementation we have has actually gone the other way and I can't think of a time in my experience where refs were less trustworthy (as a collective).

Offline Chinchilla Bathhouse

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Re: VAR
« Reply #767 on: October 23, 2019, 11:18:14 AM »
‘Soccer is not about justice.  It’s a drama – and criminally wrong decisions against you are part and parcel of that.’

Pete Davies

Offline paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #768 on: October 23, 2019, 11:21:57 AM »
‘Soccer is not about justice.  It’s a drama – and criminally wrong decisions against you are part and parcel of that.’

Pete Davies

The issue is that those decisions can now have such a massive impact (hundreds of millions of them) that it's harder than before to chalk it off as 'part of the charm of the game'.

Offline AsTallAsLions

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Re: VAR
« Reply #769 on: October 23, 2019, 11:34:02 AM »
in football almost all fans think that almost all refs are fucking shit and it will take a lot of work to turn that around.

Yes but that's why it's worth doing. The game as a whole will benefit enormously.

I know you misattributed that quote to me instead of paul_e by accident but just wanted to point it out!

Find it hard to disagree with what paul_e or Risso have said above, for what it's worth.

Offline baddowvillans

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Re: VAR
« Reply #770 on: October 23, 2019, 12:20:31 PM »
I don't get that VAR doesn't work in football because there aren't as many breaks.  Surely when a goal is scored - and if there is any area of concern from the on field ref or VAR the ref can take time to look at the play back and make the right decision.  What baffles me is by giving the goal on Saturday the ref is clearly comfortable with Wesley's challenge and can only therefore be corrected if it is clear and obvious.  I've only seen the same angle where his arm is in the air and in the area of the keeper but with no obvious meaningful contact.  To be that is not not clear and obvious and certainly not as clear and obvious as the contact on Origi

Offline chrisw1

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Re: VAR
« Reply #771 on: October 23, 2019, 02:10:33 PM »
I don't get that VAR doesn't work in football because there aren't as many breaks.  Surely when a goal is scored - and if there is any area of concern from the on field ref or VAR the ref can take time to look at the play back and make the right decision.  What baffles me is by giving the goal on Saturday the ref is clearly comfortable with Wesley's challenge and can only therefore be corrected if it is clear and obvious.  I've only seen the same angle where his arm is in the air and in the area of the keeper but with no obvious meaningful contact.  To be that is not not clear and obvious and certainly not as clear and obvious as the contact on Origi
Yes, given how VAR has operated to date, it was a truly remarkable decision and I'm surprised there hasn't been more press on it.

Offline LeeB

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Re: VAR
« Reply #772 on: October 23, 2019, 02:13:55 PM »
I don't get that VAR doesn't work in football because there aren't as many breaks.  Surely when a goal is scored - and if there is any area of concern from the on field ref or VAR the ref can take time to look at the play back and make the right decision.  What baffles me is by giving the goal on Saturday the ref is clearly comfortable with Wesley's challenge and can only therefore be corrected if it is clear and obvious.  I've only seen the same angle where his arm is in the air and in the area of the keeper but with no obvious meaningful contact.  To be that is not not clear and obvious and certainly not as clear and obvious as the contact on Origi
Yes, given how VAR has operated to date, it was a truly remarkable decision and I'm surprised there hasn't been more press on it.

Even more ridiculous is that it was the same man that gave both decisions.

Offline KevinGage

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Re: VAR
« Reply #773 on: October 23, 2019, 04:09:56 PM »
On Saturday, Conor had clearly lashed the ball into the net.  The referee rightly gave the goal, and nobody was complaining about it.  For VAR to then overrule it, was both wrong, and also against the spirit of the so-called "high bar".

Utterly shit decision.

I hope someone cranks up the voltage in the headsets at Stockley Park next week if the numpty who chalked that one off feels like getting involved again.

As an aside, it was interesting (shit) to see Kevin Fiend officiating a Premier League match after his performance at Selhurst in the next round of fixtures.

I can get why they wouldn't hang him out to try and comment on his performance in public straight after. But he should have been getting League One fixtures for a few weeks after that after a totally dreadful 90 minutes. Instead it was business as usual.  No accountability, nada.

Offline Risso

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Re: VAR
« Reply #774 on: October 23, 2019, 04:18:25 PM »
On Saturday, Conor had clearly lashed the ball into the net.  The referee rightly gave the goal, and nobody was complaining about it.  For VAR to then overrule it, was both wrong, and also against the spirit of the so-called "high bar".

Utterly shit decision.

I hope someone cranks up the voltage in the headsets at Stockley Park next week if the numpty who chalked that one off feels like getting involved again.

As an aside, it was interesting (shit) to see Kevin Fiend officiating a Premier League match after his performance at Selhurst in the next round of fixtures.

I can get why they wouldn't hang him out to try and comment on his performance in public straight after. But he should have been getting League One fixtures for a few weeks after that after a totally dreadful 90 minutes. Instead it was business as usual.  No accountability, nada.

I agree and said the same thing recently.  The week after that, he was rewarded with a "big" game, Manu v Arsenal.

Online Somniloquism

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Re: VAR
« Reply #775 on: October 23, 2019, 05:26:02 PM »
On Saturday, Conor had clearly lashed the ball into the net.  The referee rightly gave the goal, and nobody was complaining about it.  For VAR to then overrule it, was both wrong, and also against the spirit of the so-called "high bar".

Utterly shit decision.

I hope someone cranks up the voltage in the headsets at Stockley Park next week if the numpty who chalked that one off feels like getting involved again.

As an aside, it was interesting (shit) to see Kevin Fiend officiating a Premier League match after his performance at Selhurst in the next round of fixtures.

I can get why they wouldn't hang him out to try and comment on his performance in public straight after. But he should have been getting League One fixtures for a few weeks after that after a totally dreadful 90 minutes. Instead it was business as usual.  No accountability, nada.

I agree and said the same thing recently.  The week after that, he was rewarded with a "big" game, Manu v Arsenal.

And wasn't he praised in that game for allowing play to go on so VAR could then be called into account to check in the build up to a goal?

Offline dave shelley

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Re: VAR
« Reply #776 on: October 23, 2019, 05:33:58 PM »
You can blame football refs for their mistakes but not their siege mentality.

Yep. Another one here agreeing with the stance that paul_e and others have got to with VAR. The refs are the problem.

While I agree with almost all that themossman says I'd disagree with that last point; what their mentality indicates is that they do NOT have the best interests of the game at heart, only their own. With such a major element of the game at risk now (fairness, an even playing field) and with such a risky experiment being conducted and abused by them I CAN blame them for not taking this opportunity to do the right thing.

Yep. I blame them for being insular, blinkered, venal, egocentric cockwombles who deserve to be consigned to the nether reaches of hell for what they are doing to our game. With any luck the clubs, through their ownership of the PL, will take this chance to cut them down to useful size. For all our sakes.

What a load of condescending sanctimonious horseshit.

Offline Chinchilla Bathhouse

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Re: VAR
« Reply #777 on: October 23, 2019, 05:43:27 PM »
You can blame football refs for their mistakes but not their siege mentality.

Yep. Another one here agreeing with the stance that paul_e and others have got to with VAR. The refs are the problem.

While I agree with almost all that themossman says I'd disagree with that last point; what their mentality indicates is that they do NOT have the best interests of the game at heart, only their own. With such a major element of the game at risk now (fairness, an even playing field) and with such a risky experiment being conducted and abused by them I CAN blame them for not taking this opportunity to do the right thing.

Yep. I blame them for being insular, blinkered, venal, egocentric cockwombles who deserve to be consigned to the nether reaches of hell for what they are doing to our game. With any luck the clubs, through their ownership of the PL, will take this chance to cut them down to useful size. For all our sakes.

What a load of condescending sanctimonious horseshit.

Hear hear. Missed this earlier. Utter bollocks and completely unhelpful.

Offline ktvillan

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Re: VAR
« Reply #778 on: October 23, 2019, 06:55:06 PM »
Whilst the tone is a bit excessive I'm not sure AllanW is wrong.  I wanted VAR a a means to eradicate what looked like clear and obvious bias, whether conscious or unconscious, towards certain teams,  or utter incompetence (see Thierry Henry double handball against Ireland).  But I've come to the conclusion it's a decent tool applied by self-serving morons. 

There still seems to be a lot of  subjective decisions going in favour of teams like Spuds and Arsenal, and against teams like us.  The bias has just changed location or been rubber stamped by a crony.  So there is absolutely no point to it from that perspective, it just gets in the way.   

I'd hoped it would give consistency of decisions - but it's applied massively inconsistently, just as on-field refs apply the laws inconsistently.  So again no point to it, it just gets in the way.

And I'm struggling to see why Gallagher says the fact the Man Yoo ref waved play on takes it out of VAR's hands, whereas our ref signalling a goal doesn't.   Similarly Friend giving a foul for Jack's dive takes VAR out of the equation, whereas if he lets play run and gives the goal, VAR could still have disallowed it.  So some decisions can be corrected, but not others?  It makes no sense and it's utter bullshit.  Gallagher just makes himself a laughing stock by trying to explain and defend it.

The application is so bad that, like others, I can only conclude that the PGMOL people are doing it deliberately to undermine it and get shot of it.

Offline dave shelley

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Re: VAR
« Reply #779 on: October 23, 2019, 07:13:53 PM »
My response to his post has got nothing to do with VAR, it's the aspersions he's casting on people he knows nothing about and about a profession I would respectfully suggest he knows even less.  Make your observations and give your opinions by all means but using that tone as Chinchilla rightly says, does nothing to help.

 


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