Relegation and rebuilding

[ciggiesnbeer]

I would appreciate answers to the following questions:
1. Was Nigel Pearson ever interviewed for the manager's role ?
2. Do we have any quality U21's who could gradually be brought into the first team during the rest of this season ?
3. Are there any signs that Garde is bringing more organisation into the team on the pitch?
4. So we get relegated, are there any positives for us to hang on to at the moment ?
5. Is it conceivable that we will do a Leeds?
6. Now and in the Championship we will need a manager who can get players welded into a real team and get them playing consistently to the best of their ability and beyond as did my hero Brian Clough and currently Eddie Howe - although early days, are there any indications that Garde will fit the bill ?

welcome to the forum!

1.) Probably not. Too much baggage at the time and lets be honest, most Villa fans thought he was a prick at the time, clearly that has now changed to some degree.
2.) Maybe. Hepburn Murphy is a good un I reckon.
3.) Yes I think there are. I would say obviously more than Sherwood although with less attacking intent.
4.) For me I am coming to terms with being a big fish in a smaller pond. I am trying to convince myself I can enjoy it I also think this suqad if we can keep most of it would do rather well in the Championship.
5.) Yes but unlikely. I know a Leeds fan, they were messed up in many more ways than we are and have been for some time.
6.) Not sure, I like Garde I hope he stays but the Championship is a different beast to many leagues. I have a hunch he is going to walk at the end of the season so it wont be a choice.

[Dave]

I don't believe they exist. What player in his right mind would agree to one ?

They've been present in every footballer's contract that I've laid eyes on. Which while it isn't a huge number, it's probably in double figures.

With most of them it tends to be along the lines of "we go down, your wages are reduced by 30% (for example), most of the difference is then given back to you as a bonus in the event of promotion, on a sliding scale depending on how long that takes.

And because of the contracted drop in income, any club that is willing to offer what you consider a better contract, you are free to join them if they pay us £x".

So the drop in wages is there but also the freedom to leave if they're worth more than that.

[Dave]

I think you underestimate just how badly we're run, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are no relegation clauses in contracts.

I'd be very surprised if there aren't. Most of these contracts have seemingly been sorted by Almstadt, and Arsenal put relegation clauses in all of their contracts. So I can't see why Arsenal would and Fox and Almstadt suddenly think that's a bad thing all of a sudden when they join a club where it might actually be relevant.

And even if there aren't, then this is one of the few benefits of having a squad commanding £30,000 per week rather than £65,000 per week.

Arsenal are an entirely different beast to Villa though.  Players signing for Arsenal are going to see that they've qualified for the Champions League for the last squillion years, and happily sign a relegation clause, as relegation's about as likely as Yeovil winning the Champions League.  When we were trying to get the likes of Veretout to pick us, it's surely not that strong a bargaining point to be stating that relegation is a possibility.  If they had more offers than just Villa, why would they sign up to a possible pay cut?  And if they have, surely that just makes it even more likely that anyone half decent will move on when we do go down.  You might get Ayew to hang around if he's picking up his £40K a week still.  If that's cut in half to £20K, he'll be out of it sharpish I'd wager.

I've more or less answered this above, but just to clarify, those other offers would also have had similar terms.

Leicester would have been putting those same clauses in Veretout's as we undoubtedly have. Sunderland would have been putting them in Richards'.

And you're right, having those clauses does mean it's more likely that Ayew and one or two others might clear off. Just one of the shit things about being relegated. But also the reason why players aren't that bothered about agreeing to them.

[Malandro]

I don't believe they exist. What player in his right mind would agree to one ?

They've been present in every footballer's contract that I've laid eyes on. Which while it isn't a huge number, it's probably in double figures.

With most of them it tends to be along the lines of "we go down, your wages are reduced by 30% (for example), most of the difference is then given back to you as a bonus in the event of promotion, on a sliding scale depending on how long that takes.

And because of the contracted drop in income, any club that is willing to offer what you consider a better contract, you are free to join them if they pay us £x".

So the drop in wages is there but also the freedom to leave if they're worth more than that.

That makes sense. I hope we make every effort to keep Vertout, Traore and Ayew.
I also hope despite his heading record, Gestede is sold.

[stuart445]

We are but at the same time we are rock bottom confidence wise.  I genuinely think we 3 or 4 experienced players that will lead by example we will come back easily. Gestede needs confidence. He can score goals with service. Ayew will score if he stays. All about getting those 3-4 leaders through the spine.

Gestede is the worst footballer I have ever seen and the players think it to, just look Vs Sunderland they were getting towards the box but wouldn't pass to him or cross it in because they know it's pointless and all it'll do is give the ball away setting up a counter attack. 

[tomd2103]

Three clubs like that in there would make it harder, but all threes income, despite being reduced would dwarf that of any of the outfits in there already, with the larger parachute payments and greater flexibility to incur losses within the rules.

I am sure all three of us would have contracts structured to take I to account relegaton as we have all been circling the rim for a while. It would make it harder, but then three do come up and given that all three are genuinely big clubs, unlike your average relegated sides like Wigan, Hull, Derby, QPR etc, I can't see how any of the likes of Ipswich et al could compete.

Especially as Sunderland and Newcastle have managers with recent experience of that division (although I don't rate McLaren and think he will be gone from there by next season if not before).   

[LeeS]

Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.

For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.

[Villa in Denmark]

Of only it was as simple as that.

Relegation will mean the club in the eyes of the national press  will cease to exist.  Out of sight and out of mind.

There will be less income, undoubtedly lower attendances, fewer commercial deals because only want the gravy boat that is the Premier League, and a squad of players who are barely Championship standard.

Some would argue that the club deserves to go bankrupt.

i had similar thoughts re: bankruptcy. Is there any way we could do a dodgy one, like those timeshare / double glazing / financial services companies do- go bankrupt, fuck all of the shit players on lucrative contracts off and then just start afresh next season, with a new business name?

I would guess that if you want to do a Rangers and drop out of the league altogether you could try it.

[Villa in Denmark]

Tomd, I think the Noses game was very telling. Ayew's movement second half ripped them apart and couldn't live with our quick passing. They're pushing for promotion and offered nothing.

I get that there is no confidence at the moment, but I just cannot see why people think we will drop through the leagues. My previous post wasn't anything particularly novel, but highlighted a way and means of taking on that league and going for the title, which has to be the aim.

Financially, we are significantly stronger than any of the teams down there, so we will be capable of squad renewal to buy the firepower necessary.

The defence needs a lot of work and I think we should be aiming for a mixture of big, physical and experienced championship centre half with a blend of younger players capable of carrying on their development after promotion.

I'd start the work now. Next year's keeper, holding midfielder and centre half. If there are loan deals to be done then have a go, but I think we need to be bigger, stronger (dare I say snide) and faster. With players like Veretout, Amavi, Ayew supplemented by a new spine, then the flair players like Grealish, Gil and Traore will have a big impact. Without wishing to labour the point, Sinclair and Gestede were big successes in that league, even poor players like Westwood may have a limited role to offer.

How are we financially stronger?  Fox has said that Lerner is still propping up the club, and this year we largely spent what we recouped on Benteke and Delph.  When we go down, I think you'll see things start to get quite bleak on the financial front.  Other than possibly Ayew, we don't have any saleable assets really.

It might be my memory playing tricks, but wasn't there a statement from Robin Russel around the time that the last accounts were released that although the accounts showed a small loss (under £4M I think) that the club was now essentially self supporting?

[preston28]

Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.

For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.

Newcastle stormed the championship after they were relegated. Lerner copies Ashley's model to some extent (buy cheap continental players and hopefully sell a few for large profit) which has resulted in Newcastle not pushing on and likely to go down with us. I don't relish that long term prospect.

[Dave]

Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.

For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.

Newcastle stormed the championship after they were relegated. Lerner copies Ashley's model to some extent (buy cheap continental players and hopefully sell a few for large profit) which has resulted in Newcastle not pushing on and likely to go down with us. I don't relish that long term prospect.

I wouldn't want to follow their trajectory beat-by-beat, but when we go down, I'll happily take promoted after a season as champions followed by a comfortable mid-table finish, followed by a fifth place Premier League finish.

Hopefully we'd make better decisions than they did at that point, but their three seasons starting with their time in the Championship was probably the most fun that Newcastle fans have had in a decade.

[Villa in Denmark]

Whilst I recognise the risks of being sucked down and down, I actually think we have a great opportunity to bounce back in style. There haven't been too many Villa-sized clubs relegated in recent years. Many of the top championship players and quite a few Premier league players with the attributes to succeed in the Championship would be delighted to join us. If we get the right mix we could storm that league next year and restore our credibility and reputation. But the allure of signing for the Villa will soon wear off if we stay down for more than one season.

For what its worth, and I know this has been discussed on another thread, I'd genuinely love to win the Championship. A season of swatting teams aside and putting them in their place would be far more enjoyable than anything we've seen over the last 4 years at VP.

Newcastle stormed the championship after they were relegated. Lerner copies Ashley's model to some extent (buy cheap continental players and hopefully sell a few for large profit) which has resulted in Newcastle not pushing on and likely to go down with us. I don't relish that long term prospect.

I wouldn't want to follow their trajectory beat-by-beat, but when we go down, I'll happily take promoted after a season as champions followed by a comfortable mid-table finish, followed by a fifth place Premier League finish.

Hopefully we'd make better decisions than they did at that point, but their three seasons starting with their time in the Championship was probably the most fun that Newcastle fans have had in a decade.

They really screwed up by making it essentially a no brainer for Pardew to accept the offer from Palace.  He might well have gone anyway, but the famous Geordie nation had made it clear he could disappear for all they cared and they were lucky it didn't happen a couple of weeks sooner.

[Ads]

All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.

The Championship is utter gash though. Which helps. I couldn't quite believe how poor until I took a recent interest, even Derby are bilge.

We've beaten Bournemouth twice this year, so we know they're pap too and they won the bloody thing.

I'd be absolutely amazed if there weren't relegation clauses since we've evidently been preparing for this eventualiy for five years now.

I think you underestimate how difficult it might well be next season. The majority of sides in The Championship will be organised, resilient & highly motivated to show any so-called big club(s) that wages & history mean nothing when your scrapping for points. There's some proper talent and canniness down there too, so our lot need to finally get their act together if we're to get back up where we think we belong.

Quality is what counts. You can be as organised as you like, hut if you don't have the quality to execute the plan either offensively or defensively, then it doesn't matter how many cliches are trotted out about that league.

[mamuu]

There may be some merit in that (Dave's post above) - although you hear it less these days, a lot of fans used to say that the old 3rd division season was one of the most enjoyable times following the Villa.

[ChicagoLion]

Of only it was as simple as that.

Relegation will mean the club in the eyes of the national press  will cease to exist.  Out of sight and out of mind.

There will be less income, undoubtedly lower attendances, fewer commercial deals because only want the gravy boat that is the Premier League, and a squad of players who are barely Championship standard.

Some would argue that the club deserves to go bankrupt.

i had similar thoughts re: bankruptcy. Is there any way we could do a dodgy one, like those timeshare / double glazing / financial services companies do- go bankrupt, fuck all of the shit players on lucrative contracts off and then just start afresh next season, with a new business name?

I would guess that if you want to do a Rangers and drop out of the league altogether you could try it.

The Player wages have to be ring fenced according to league rules.he FA can give you a massive points deduction just for going into Administration.