Relegation and rebuilding

[Nelson Lodge]

A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.

Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.

[tomd2103]

A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.

Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.

Bringing in a good keeper and defensive midfielder would also help with that.

[joe_c]

A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.

Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.

I keep seeing people making this suggestion of a dedicated defensive coach but does such a thing actually exist? Does anyone have any examples of a successful one at any club? This is genuine ignorance on my part as the only time I can remember anybody making such an appointment was Kevin Keegan inventing a job for Mark Lawrenson at Newcastle 20 odd years ago with disappointing results.

[Chico Hamilton III]

A good start to the rebuilding process would be the appointment of a Defence Coach who knows what they are doing. Stop leaking goals and you have a base from which to progress in the right direction.

Ideally couple that with an energised, interested owner who appoints competent board members and executive staff and you have a chance. Regrettably I cannot see that happening any time soon.

I keep seeing people making this suggestion of a dedicated defensive coach but does such a thing actually exist? Does anyone have any examples of a successful one at any club? This is genuine ignorance on my part as the only time I can remember anybody making such an appointment was Kevin Keegan inventing a job for Mark Lawrenson at Newcastle 20 odd years ago with disappointing results.

Wasn't O'Leary the defence coach at Leeds before he took over as manager?

[Dave]

All three owners are spectacular in their ineptitude. How are they billionaires? They should be playing Wonderwall badly outside the back of Rackhams.

Agreed that all three are badly run and are being shamed by clubs like Watford, Leicester and Southampton. I still think Sunderland and Newcastle would be better equipped than us to get their house in order in the championship. Both have more experience of recent relegations than we have and we should remember that our owner is absent/distant as well as incompetent.

Does Ellis Short go to many Sunderland matches?

No idea. Does he?

I don't know. Hence the question.

Either he does and that would suggest that having the owner turn up doesn't magically solve all of your problems.

Or he doesn't and thus the massive disadvantage that he's worried we would have compared to Sunderland next season isn't actually a real thing.

[peter w]

But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.

[Chris Smith]

But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.

Given his record keeping him away seems to me preferable to having him around. I cannot think of anything within his capabilities that might be improved by him being here in person.

[Dave]

But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.

It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.

When their owner is no more visible than ours.

[Toronto Villa]

But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.

It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.

When their owner is no more visible than ours.

And this point has been made before. What about Sheik Mansour or Joe Lewis? Are they any more present than Randy Lerner? Or is it just that they have 1)made much better decisions in hiring the right people, and certainly 2) in the case of Man City have significantly greater resources to overcome any bad decisions they make, get better and better managers/players etc.

Ultimately the point being if Randy was here all the time the decisions that have been made would still have been made. He'd still have hired Alex McLeish or Tim Sherwood. That he is physically  in New York most of the time makes no difference at all. He hires the people, he likely has last call on most major initiatives and all of the good decisions he has made (and he has made some) have been crushed beneath the weight of the numerous bad ones. His presence day to day at the club or lack thereof is irrelevant.

[peter w]

But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.

It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.

When their owner is no more visible than ours.

When you're performing poorly and as abject as we are then yes, you need to be at least seen to be at the tiller. When things are going well then its less important to be visible. When the club lurch from one monumental error to the next psychologically to see the captain at the helm could galvanise and even calm.

The comparison with other clubs is redundant as we're not other clubs. They have a different set of circumstances to us so whether John Bloggs is at Sunderland, Norwich, or whoever, during the week is totally irrelevant. That Randy Lerner isn't, isn't.

[Dave]

But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.

It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.

When their owner is no more visible than ours.

When you're performing poorly and as abject as we are then yes, you need to be at least seen to be at the tiller. When things are going well then its less important to be visible.

Which of those two situations do you feel describes Sunderland at the moment?

[brontebilly]

We're a big club, with a big name in this league. In the Championship, that counts further. If your a good player at say MK Dons and you're looking to move in the summer to a bigger club in the division. If Aston Villa are interested, then there is a good chance you'd jump through hoops to go there, in a way that you wouldn't for Hull, QPR or any of the other small teams that bob up and down in the leagues.

The same would apply to Newcastle and to a lesser extent Sunderland should they join us.

In respect of the wage issues, apart from Gabby, I cannot think of any big earners who contribute nothing being left. The wage eating non-providers like N'Zogbia, Cole, Senderos and Richardson will be gone. Richards may well leave, although he does play, so it would only be Gabby left unless I am mistaken.

As we have seen, it is much harder said than done, but I would want a proper clearout.  I would like to see the following gone by or at the end of the season:

Guzan
Hutton
Lescott
Senderos
Baker
Richardson
Cole
Westwood
Sinclair
Agbonlahor
Kozak
N'Zogbia

I don't rate Gestede at all, but I think he could be useful in Championship, albeit in a cameo role.  I would say to the above who are not out of contract in the summer that they are never going to play for the Villa again so can go ahead and find another club.  Some of them wouldn't, so would have to be completely taken out of the picture. 

Edit - I would add Sanchez to the above list as well.

Cole, Zog, Senderos, Richardson are all out of contract - http://astonvillacentral.com/squad/contracts/

those with one year left on their deals shouldnt be too much of an issue to shift on the cheap

only players I would keep are Grealish, Clark, Westwood, Ayew, Veretout and Amavi

Sinclair and Gestede have previously smashed up the championship so might be worth keeping

dont think the likes of Traore, Gil and Gueye will have the bottle for wet nights in Rotherham, definitely cant see Traore and Gueye staying on. I expect they will be looking for loans back to Spain and France.

[Irish villain]

But this isn't about Sunderland but Aston Villa. What is good for them isn't necessarily true for us and vice versa so its a rather redundant argument. We are floundering and the want away owner is leaving us rudderless.

It's not a redundant argument if your point is that an absentee owner is a crucial thing and puts us at a disadvantage compared to another club.

When their owner is no more visible than ours.

I know that when I google Sunderland they seem to have a more involved owner. The point is all three are badly run clubs but villa fans have been complaining about Lerner's lack of leadership and visibility for years. We can nit pick and reduce it to whether or not attendance at games would make a difference but the overarching point is the guy at the helm has seemed detached while we have been in decline from 2010. Perhaps he would have been more alarmed during the early stages of the decline had he been more involved and at games.

Moreover, we need to remember that we have fallen from a greater height than either Newcastle or Sunderland. Our custodians have seen us go from premier league ever presents and regular top six finishes to a club that stands on 8 points after 20 games. Therefore I stand by my original point that we would be at a disadvantage if relegated alongside them given the rate of our decline under Lerner and the lack of nous at the club as evidenced in the Tom Fox thread today.

[aj2k77]

Short doesn't go to many Sunderland games no. Apparently turns up for local derbies and the odd game in London.

[saunders_heroes]

Short doesn't go to many Sunderland games no. Apparently turns up for local derbies and the odd game in London.

More than Randy then.