International Rugby

[nigel]

ABs have been really poor in the first 10-12 of the 2nd half.

I put this down to the pressure the Lions have put them under.

Stuart Barnes was really p*ssing me off. How great the All Blacks are and how lucky the Lions are.

I think it was part that and part frustration that they hadn't pulled away in the first half, looked to me like they were letting that frustration spill over and trying to force things.  The lions were largely what we expected if everything went to plan, dangerous out wide but struggling to get good ball to the wingers to make the most of it, solid up front and in the set pieces and kicked points when they were available.

A drawn series is a good result, that's undeniable but I can't help but think that a coach willing to risk things a little more could've won that.  I thought the ABs were pretty average, they've got 3-4 very good players but, with my England hat on, I wouldn't look at them as being out of our league, they're certainly not some irresistible force as some commentators like to suggest.

Agree. From an England point of view it shows the gap has coed considerably. I really believe now that England, and Ireland, can go to the World Cup with genuine hope.

Man of the series has to be Itoji.

[Dante Lavelli]

Shouldn't the ref have played some sort of advantage regardless of whether a penalty (or not).  The NZ fella had snaffled the ball anyway and was heading for the posts.

[taylorsworkrate]

ABs have been really poor in the first 10-12 of the 2nd half.

I put this down to the pressure the Lions have put them under.

Stuart Barnes was really p*ssing me off. How great the All Blacks are and how lucky the Lions are.

I think it was part that and part frustration that they hadn't pulled away in the first half, looked to me like they were letting that frustration spill over and trying to force things.  The lions were largely what we expected if everything went to plan, dangerous out wide but struggling to get good ball to the wingers to make the most of it, solid up front and in the set pieces and kicked points when they were available.

A drawn series is a good result, that's undeniable but I can't help but think that a coach willing to risk things a little more could've won that.  I thought the ABs were pretty average, they've got 3-4 very good players but, with my England hat on, I wouldn't look at them as being out of our league, they're certainly not some irresistible force as some commentators like to suggest.

Man of the series has to be Itoji.

I think that in a couple of years, Itoje will be on his way to becoming the most complete rugby player in the world

[peter w]

Just watched the game again and I think that we shouldn't let the penalty or not define the match. It is amplified as a decision because it was in the last two minutes rather than the first two. Was it the right call? I don't know. This is the part of rugby - these types of laws - that I have no idea about so cannot comment. But the ref called it and so there must be some scope for it to be a correct call, again whether it was I really don't know and it may have been a bad decision.

But, we shouldn't forget that over the whole 80 minutes I thought the Lions were on the wrong end of 4 poor decisions that may have affected the scoreline also. Warburton being penalised in teh second minute when it appeared that he turned the ball over cleanly. On 8 minutes the All blacks knocked on and Farrell picked up the ball and was pinged for a knock-on when he wa stackled trying to clear. Attacking scrum for NZ in our 22 when it should have been a scrum the other way. Early in the second half Watson got done for a forward pass to Williams when it came out the back of his hand setting Williams free deep into the 22, and although tackled it was an attacking breakdown from which the Lions may have scored. Finally, on about 60 minutes a counter-attack by the Lions saw a deliberate knock on to stop Davies and Daly getting free. Instead of getting the clear penalty - and possible yellow (harsh as that would have been), the ref brought the game back for an earlier NZ knock-on.

So, yes, if NZ want to point to a penalty at the death we can point to 4 separate instances where we were wrongly adjudged to have been at fault.

As for player of the season - big shout outs to Faletau, George, Itoje, Murray but despite not wanting to play him for me the player that stood out was Johnathon Davies. Great in both attack and defence.

There's something about the Lions which is better than watching England. In the 80s and 90s it was a devalued brand but not anymore. Warburton said that the only shirt that he has hanging up in his house is his Lions shirt and that speaks volumes. The team and tours should be protected. NZ thought they could just walk over the team and were sorely wrong. The Aussies were beaten last time out and South Africa need 4 years to try and get better to even compete with us. brilliant test performances after the first test and proof if needed that Northern Hemisphere, and British (and irish) rugby is in great shape.

[nigel]

Good post, peter w.
Mentioned in an earlier post that I thought the ref got a couple wrong, but, overall I thought he had a good game. I felt the reffing was very good throughout the series.

Johnathan Davies was exceptional in the 3 games, and you're right on him being 'Player of the Series'
I was, maybe, being a touch blinkered for Maro Itoje, but, what a two and a bit games he had!
There were a lot of heroes out there with all players bringing nothing back to the dressing room.

Finally, well done to AWJ on equalling the consecutive starts for the Lions, 9.
I, personally, didn't think he should have been starting these games, but, maybe Gatland wanted a calming influence for the first 50 mins or so.
Over the three games I reckon WG got it about right.

[paul_e]

Just watched the game again and I think that we shouldn't let the penalty or not define the match. It is amplified as a decision because it was in the last two minutes rather than the first two. Was it the right call? I don't know. This is the part of rugby - these types of laws - that I have no idea about so cannot comment. But the ref called it and so there must be some scope for it to be a correct call, again whether it was I really don't know and it may have been a bad decision.

But, we shouldn't forget that over the whole 80 minutes I thought the Lions were on the wrong end of 4 poor decisions that may have affected the scoreline also. Warburton being penalised in teh second minute when it appeared that he turned the ball over cleanly. On 8 minutes the All blacks knocked on and Farrell picked up the ball and was pinged for a knock-on when he wa stackled trying to clear. Attacking scrum for NZ in our 22 when it should have been a scrum the other way. Early in the second half Watson got done for a forward pass to Williams when it came out the back of his hand setting Williams free deep into the 22, and although tackled it was an attacking breakdown from which the Lions may have scored. Finally, on about 60 minutes a counter-attack by the Lions saw a deliberate knock on to stop Davies and Daly getting free. Instead of getting the clear penalty - and possible yellow (harsh as that would have been), the ref brought the game back for an earlier NZ knock-on.

So, yes, if NZ want to point to a penalty at the death we can point to 4 separate instances where we were wrongly adjudged to have been at fault.

As for player of the season - big shout outs to Faletau, George, Itoje, Murray but despite not wanting to play him for me the player that stood out was Johnathon Davies. Great in both attack and defence.

There's something about the Lions which is better than watching England. In the 80s and 90s it was a devalued brand but not anymore. Warburton said that the only shirt that he has hanging up in his house is his Lions shirt and that speaks volumes. The team and tours should be protected. NZ thought they could just walk over the team and were sorely wrong. The Aussies were beaten last time out and South Africa need 4 years to try and get better to even compete with us. brilliant test performances after the first test and proof if needed that Northern Hemisphere, and British (and irish) rugby is in great shape.

Bold one - sorry but that one was a forward pass and it was the fault of Williams not Watson he got far too flat and gave Watson no option but to throw out a speculative one.  a couple of steps deeper and that whole play goes totally different.

The 2 before that I think were ok, certainly not to the point where they riled me, they're the sort of 50/50s that you have to just accept.

The last one however was a terrible decision and that one alone offsets the whole penalty or not argument, it really was blatant.

Player of the series, I think Nigel got it right the first time, without him (in the first test) they overran us at the breakdown and were getting good, quick ball consistently.  Itoje and Warburton came on and stopped that.  For the next 2 Itoje gave us a drive that hadn't been there.  Specifically on Davies for me he's a lot like Manu in that he looks like he's doing everything and you should build a team around him but his very presence makes you predictable, for me that makes it difficult to offer too much praise, he did play well though.

Onto Gatland, with 2 10s, a 13 with a big boot and a winger with one of the biggest boots going he fairly clearly wanted to set us up to play territory and solid defence.  On that basis we did exactly what was planned and he drew the series so it's been pretty effective but I don't think it will have done much to sway SH opinions that European rugby isn't as good as theirs.

I'm not a massive fan of the lions anyway because I think the way the coach and team are selected are wrong and, on a petty level, I just don't like how welsh it's been for the last couple of years.  To offer a massive stereotype Welsh rugby fans, in my experience, have the same cockiness as NZ fans but without the massive haul of trophies or stream of world class players.  I went on a tour in wales in 2004 and there were a group of them arguing that Johnny Wilkinson was shit and wouldn't get into the welsh team, we thought they were taking the piss until the couple of English guys they had told us this had been an on-going argument for 2-3 years.

[peter w]

It was out of the back of the hand and unless he can defy the laws of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant as it would have to have gone backwards out of the hand given the position  of his body and his momentum when running.

[paul_e]

It was out of the back of the hand and unless he can defy the laws of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant as it would have to have gone backwards out of the hand given the position  of his body and his momentum when running.

I honestly don't know what you're trying to say there, it's like the ramblings of a madman.

Let me make it simple.  If you ignore Williams for a moment Watson dipped his should and popped a pass out the back of the hand that was pretty flat, judging it forward or legal would be pretty tough.  Part of the problem is that refs usually use body shape as an indicator but that can't apply to a back of the hand pass because it's an unnatural movement.  Now if Williams is sprinting from deep and takes the ball in 'the box' I think the ref gives you the benefit of the doubt.  That's where the decision is made easy in this case.  When you add a flat and pretty much static Williams to the picture and have him stretching for the pass it just looks wrong.  This is why I'm saying I blame Williams for it, his actions and position made it very easy for the ref.

With all things like this I always try to ask myself if I'd be annoyed if it wasn't given the other way and for me I'd have been screaming for a forward pass there if it had been NZ so I think the ref got it right.

[peter w]

As ever paul e resorts to snide digs and patronising tones.

okay, i won't bother reading all of your post and just admit you are right. I know you're never wrong anyway so shouldn't have bothered.

[paul_e]

As ever paul e resorts to snide digs and patronising tones.

okay, i won't bother reading all of your post and just admit you are right. I know you're never wrong anyway so shouldn't have bothered.

You used the line "unless he can defy the law of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant", I'm not being snide or patronising, I honestly have no fucking idea what you were trying to say so I tried to break it down.  I did that because I've done the qualifications and with things like this they tell you how to break it down and list the things to look for.  The important one in forward passing it the positioning of the catcher and how they take the ball.  For the Watson one in both regards it will have flagged as forward.

Its not about never being wrong it's about knowing what I'm talking about.  In other discussions you'd have a point but in this case you just seem upset that i disagreed and did it with evidence.

[paul_e]

World cup group is now finalised as England, France, Argentina, Tonga, USA - pretty much as expected when it was announced.

[nigel]

World cup group is now finalised as England, France, Argentina, Tonga, USA - pretty much as expected when it was announced.

We'll win that group, although there won't be any easy games.
I'd love Tonga to get 2nd, but, in reality I do think they will play a part in who comes 2nd out of France and Argentina.

[peter w]

Its a group the Southern hemisphere teams will like too. Its likely we'll go through and none of the big 3 would like Argentina to have a crack at them, and the certainly wouldn't fancy the French.

[tomd2103]

Its a group the Southern hemisphere teams will like too. Its likely we'll go through and none of the big 3 would like Argentina to have a crack at them, and the certainly wouldn't fancy the French.

Think England's group pick up the group with Wales and Australia in it at the QF stage,

[tomd2103]

As ever paul e resorts to snide digs and patronising tones.

okay, i won't bother reading all of your post and just admit you are right. I know you're never wrong anyway so shouldn't have bothered.

You used the line "unless he can defy the law of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant", I'm not being snide or patronising, I honestly have no fucking idea what you were trying to say so I tried to break it down.  I did that because I've done the qualifications and with things like this they tell you how to break it down and list the things to look for.  The important one in forward passing it the positioning of the catcher and how they take the ball.  For the Watson one in both regards it will have flagged as forward.

Its not about never being wrong it's about knowing what I'm talking about.  In other discussions you'd have a point but in this case you just seem upset that i disagreed and did it with evidence.

Intersting Paul because when you hear the pundits on the TV, they talk about the position of the passing player's hands when they release the ball.  It is a very complicated issue and I still think the Watson call was very tight.  If you watch any Southern Hemisphere team play, they constantly pass forward and get away with it.