Jordan Amavi - gone again

[Dave]

He's so rubbish it's only smallfry like Sevilla who are desperate enough to take him off our hands.

Wouldn't surprise me if within 2/3 years Amavi, Gueye and Veretout are all playing Champions League football.   Would surprise me if we're saying the same about Neil Taylor, Glen Whelan and Elmohamady.

That's great, but it's what happens this season in the Championship that is more of a concern to us really. 

Downgrading the playing staff and hoping to do better isn't the way to go really.

Downgrading?

I'm not sure I've seen anything of Amavi that would indicate he's half as good as the excellent Taylor.

Absolutely, hence Taylor moving to one of the most successful clubs in Europe over the last few seasons for £8m so he can play in the Champions League next season.

Actually hang on...

Amavi might have potential, we've not seen It, certainly not defensively. Hes nowhere near as good as Taylor, who many were wrong about.

Taylor is, in his prime, a fairly competent Championship defender who nobody better than us wanted to buy. Which is why we're the team that bought him. He'll carry on being fine for somewhere between the 15th and 35th best team in the country for another five years or so.

Amavi is a young player who has had a couple of the most important years of his development buggered by a couple of unfortunate factors, who has still shown enough in the couple of years that he's played, that one of the most successful teams in Europe of the last few years want to spend £8m on him.

Which is still fine, good luck to all three parties - there clearly isn't going to be a place for him in our Glenn Whelan / Alan Hutton / Meat / Potatoes Dream Team, so we may as well have the cash rather than bothering to try and make a young player better.

We don't really seem to have the tools to try to coach young players, so we're probably better off letting them go somewhere to get better, and we'll just buy Premier League reserves.

It's basically all Amavi's fault. Or Grealish's fault. Or Gueye's fault. Or Veretout's fault. Or Gil's fault. Or Gollini's fault. Or Tshibola's fault. Or the fault of anybody, as long as we don't have to think about the club having to take any responsibility to the development of a 21 year old player. They turned up as a 21 year old to a shit team with shit coaches, it's basically their own problem that they weren't brilliant.

Still, there's probably a 32 year old in Huddersfield's reserves they don't need now they've been promoted. Much easier that way.

[tomd2103]

He's so rubbish it's only smallfry like Sevilla who are desperate enough to take him off our hands.

Wouldn't surprise me if within 2/3 years Amavi, Gueye and Veretout are all playing Champions League football.   Would surprise me if we're saying the same about Neil Taylor, Glen Whelan and Elmohamady.

That's great, but it's what happens this season in the Championship that is more of a concern to us really. 

Downgrading the playing staff and hoping to do better isn't the way to go really.

Downgrading?

I'm not sure I've seen anything of Amavi that would indicate he's half as good as the excellent Taylor.

Absolutely, hence Taylor moving to one of the most successful clubs in Europe over the last few seasons for £8m so he can play in the Champions League next season.

Actually hang on...

Amavi might have potential, we've not seen It, certainly not defensively. Hes nowhere near as good as Taylor, who many were wrong about.

Taylor is, in his prime, a fairly competent Championship defender who nobody better than us wanted to buy. Which is why we're the team that bought him. He'll carry on being fine for somewhere between the 15th and 35th best team in the country for another five years or so.

Amavi is a young player who has had a couple of the most important years of his development buggered by a couple of unfortunate factors, who has still shown enough in the couple of years that he's played, that one of the most successful teams in Europe of the last few years want to spend £8m on him.

Which is still fine, good luck to all three parties - there clearly isn't going to be a place for him in our Glenn Whelan / Alan Hutton / Meat / Potatoes Dream Team, so we may as well have the cash rather than bothering to try and make a young player better.

We don't really seem to have the tools to try to coach young players, so we're probably better off letting them go somewhere to get better, and we'll just buy Premier League reserves.

It's basically all Amavi's fault. Or Grealish's fault. Or Gueye's fault. Or Veretout's fault. Or Gil's fault. Or Gollini's fault. Or Tshibola's fault. Or the fault of anybody, as long as we don't have to think about the club having to take any responsibility to the development of a 21 year old player. They turned up as a 21 year old to a shit team with shit coaches, it's basically their own problem that they weren't brilliant.

Still, there's probably a 32 year old in Huddersfield's reserves they don't need now they've been promoted. Much easier that way.

You still really don't like Neil Taylor do you Dave?  You seem to forget that he also had a serious injury which occurred during the prime years of his career when he was doing well in the top flight and the international stage. 

Some of the names you mentioned have hardly helped themselves with their attitude at times have they? 

[PeterWithesShin]

I do think there seems something fundamentally wrong with how we're coaching players, and it feels like it's been like that years. Think of the dozens of players we've signed or had come up from the youth team over say the last 6 years, there's not many that seem to have improved from being with our first team.

[Dave]

He's so rubbish it's only smallfry like Sevilla who are desperate enough to take him off our hands.

Wouldn't surprise me if within 2/3 years Amavi, Gueye and Veretout are all playing Champions League football.   Would surprise me if we're saying the same about Neil Taylor, Glen Whelan and Elmohamady.

That's great, but it's what happens this season in the Championship that is more of a concern to us really. 

Downgrading the playing staff and hoping to do better isn't the way to go really.

Downgrading?

I'm not sure I've seen anything of Amavi that would indicate he's half as good as the excellent Taylor.

Absolutely, hence Taylor moving to one of the most successful clubs in Europe over the last few seasons for £8m so he can play in the Champions League next season.

Actually hang on...

Amavi might have potential, we've not seen It, certainly not defensively. Hes nowhere near as good as Taylor, who many were wrong about.

Taylor is, in his prime, a fairly competent Championship defender who nobody better than us wanted to buy. Which is why we're the team that bought him. He'll carry on being fine for somewhere between the 15th and 35th best team in the country for another five years or so.

Amavi is a young player who has had a couple of the most important years of his development buggered by a couple of unfortunate factors, who has still shown enough in the couple of years that he's played, that one of the most successful teams in Europe of the last few years want to spend £8m on him.

Which is still fine, good luck to all three parties - there clearly isn't going to be a place for him in our Glenn Whelan / Alan Hutton / Meat / Potatoes Dream Team, so we may as well have the cash rather than bothering to try and make a young player better.

We don't really seem to have the tools to try to coach young players, so we're probably better off letting them go somewhere to get better, and we'll just buy Premier League reserves.

It's basically all Amavi's fault. Or Grealish's fault. Or Gueye's fault. Or Veretout's fault. Or Gil's fault. Or Gollini's fault. Or Tshibola's fault. Or the fault of anybody, as long as we don't have to think about the club having to take any responsibility to the development of a 21 year old player. They turned up as a 21 year old to a shit team with shit coaches, it's basically their own problem that they weren't brilliant.

Still, there's probably a 32 year old in Huddersfield's reserves they don't need now they've been promoted. Much easier that way.

You still really don't like Neil Taylor do you Dave?  You seem to forget that he also had a serious injury which occurred during the prime years of his career when he was doing well in the top flight and the international stage. 

Some of the names you mentioned have hardly helped themselves with their attitude at times have they?

On point one, I have nothing against him. He's a solid signing for an upper mid-table Championship side, just as I describe above. I'll just get my bunting and party poppers out of the cupboard.

He's not bad. He's not great. There's nothing more to see than what he is. He's like an IKEA chair. Or a mid-range frozen lasagne. Or a weekend where the weather isn't great, so it means you have to finally get round to a couple of jobs around the house. It's just there, because it's there.

On point two, I'll consider it a helpful extension of my point. It's always their fault. It's probably just coincidence that we're the club that if you say "that player from the last five years with the attitude", it could literally be from a pool of twenty or so.

Definitely all of their faults, individually. Nothing to do with us, we're just unlucky.

[paul_e]

Your point isn't a valid one though.  You're suggesting that we run the risk of lingering in the Championship while we wait for the likes of Amavi and Veretout to improve enough to get us out of it. 

No I'm not at all, that you think that's what I'm saying shows how trapped in short-termism you are.  What I'm saying is that if all you do is say "we'll fix that tomorrow" it's never going to get fixed, it will always be a patch up job, we'll always sign the 28-30 year old who's nothing special but has been there and done it, we'll always get the safety first manager who's done ok at the same job we need doing.  Our kids will always get to 22-23 having never established themselves because they get 1 game in 3 and it'll be their own fault for not putting the effort in.  Lots of people have spoken for years about the problems at the club but yet again we're told that this summer isn't the time to do anything about it.

I said a few days ago until the team, the fans and the club change that mentality and start looking at building things that can last we're always going to be a long way short of what the biggest club from the 2nd biggest city in the country should be.

[PeterWithesShin]

I'd agree if we were top flight Paul, with FFP and being stuck in division 2 I think it's harder to look at a player like Amavi and think "well in a couple of years he could be very good". I think we're forced into being more short term as we really need to be promoted this season.

[tomd2103]

I'd agree if we were top flight Paul, with FFP and being stuck in division 2 I think it's harder to look at a player like Amavi and think "well in a couple of years he could be very good". I think we're forced into being more short term as we really need to be promoted this season.

I think the short-term nature of managerial appointments makes it hard for managers to think like that as well. 

[tomd2103]

Your point isn't a valid one though.  You're suggesting that we run the risk of lingering in the Championship while we wait for the likes of Amavi and Veretout to improve enough to get us out of it. 

No I'm not at all, that you think that's what I'm saying shows how trapped in short-termism you are.  What I'm saying is that if all you do is say "we'll fix that tomorrow" it's never going to get fixed, it will always be a patch up job, we'll always sign the 28-30 year old who's nothing special but has been there and done it, we'll always get the safety first manager who's done ok at the same job we need doing.  Our kids will always get to 22-23 having never established themselves because they get 1 game in 3 and it'll be their own fault for not putting the effort in.  Lots of people have spoken for years about the problems at the club but yet again we're told that this summer isn't the time to do anything about it.

I said a few days ago until the team, the fans and the club change that mentality and start looking at building things that can last we're always going to be a long way short of what the biggest club from the 2nd biggest city in the country should be.

How long do you envisage that process taking then Paul? 

[passport1]

Yes I used to dream in the that one day we would punch our weight too. As the decades have passed I have long given up on seeing the revolution that will lead to that.

[SoccerHQ]

I think people are forgetting we still need to balance our books.

Everything we're doing so far this summer is indicating this, Terry was a free transfer. Whelan and this Elmohamady guy will be in the 2m range, Johnstone a little bit more but we won't be spending 50m net this summer that's for sure as it's simply unsustainable if there's no promotion at the end of the season.

Amavi to me was always the obvious squad player we had who we could sell to balance the books without significantly weakening us as Taylor is pretty good for this level.

What other squad players could we sell for 7-8m. We'll struggle to get that for Gil, Sanchez and Veretout combined.

[paul_e]

I think people are forgetting we still need to balance our books.

Everything we're doing so far this summer is indicating this, Terry was a free transfer. Whelan and this Elmohamady guy will be in the 2m range, Johnstone a little bit more but we won't be spending 50m net this summer that's for sure as it's simply unsustainable if there's no promotion at the end of the season.

Amavi to me was always the obvious squad player we had who we could sell to balance the books without significantly weakening us as Taylor is pretty good for this level.

What other squad players could we sell for 7-8m. We'll struggle to get that for Gil, Sanchez and Veretout combined.

I completely get FFP and taken in context selling Amavi is fine but I think other people are ignoring the fact that FFP will still exist next summer.  That's why filling the squad with championship journeymen and 30 somethings whilst selling or not playing the under 25s bothers me.  Lots of the players we've signed in the last 12-13 months are going to have to be in the team next season, even if we go up and the vast majority of them aren't good enough for that and are very unlikely to improve to any meaningful degree.


To flip this round a little bit how does an approach of, "good enough for now and we'll replace them when we get promoted" help to balance the books, has any team that has focused on buying experience ever been considered as the perfect example of sustainable club finances?

As I've said what we've done since Xia came in is almost carbon copy of what MON did 10-11 years ago.  What Round brings to things might be where we see a difference but I don't think that will work if we have managers like Bruce and are focusing on signing people like Whelan and Elmohamady.

How long do you envisage that process taking then Paul? 

That leads nicely to this.  I think there are 3 steps.

The first is to decide how you want to approach things and get the management and coaching team structured correctly to deliver that.  Until you do this there's no chance to start anything else because your entire footballing philosophy is based on the opinion of the manager and you're in a constant cycle of transition based on the wants of the guy who happens to be charge this year.  There's no timescale to this bit really, it just needs to happen.

The second bit is to build up a squad of 2-3 players in each position who are suited to that style.  With some addition from the youth team/reserves that will take 2-3 years but after 3 windows the core of the squad should be well established.  On the flip side the outs should be focused, where possible, on getting rid of the players who will not fit first and then the ones that are in the middle get a chance to adapt.

The final bit is to get all the back room stuff working towards the new philosophy so that in the long term the kids that are coming through are all used to playing the same way and are able to step in as backups/replacements as the team above starts to break up.  You're looking at 3-5 years for this to start taking effect and 7-8 for it to become fully established.

[eamonn]

Didn't Round espouse some of those ideas in that big interview he did last season? Bruce talking about needing PL experience to go with Terry suggests they're not fully on the same wavelength or else Round was talking a long-term strategy that sounds good as a new guy getting his ideas across but can be terminally "kicked down the road" without any sign of implementation.

[paul_e]

Didn't Round espouse some of those ideas in that big interview he did last season? Bruce talking about needing PL experience to go with Terry suggests they're not fully on the same wavelength or else Round was talking a long-term strategy that sounds good as a new guy getting his ideas across but can be terminally "kicked down the road" without any sign of implementation.

I don' mind premier league experience but it needs to be the right type of players and be players who can do the "team to stay up" bit as well.  Chester is a great example of the sort of players we should be looking at.  Elmo might be if he didn't play in positions where we have too many players already.

[tomd2103]

I think people are forgetting we still need to balance our books.

Everything we're doing so far this summer is indicating this, Terry was a free transfer. Whelan and this Elmohamady guy will be in the 2m range, Johnstone a little bit more but we won't be spending 50m net this summer that's for sure as it's simply unsustainable if there's no promotion at the end of the season.

Amavi to me was always the obvious squad player we had who we could sell to balance the books without significantly weakening us as Taylor is pretty good for this level.

What other squad players could we sell for 7-8m. We'll struggle to get that for Gil, Sanchez and Veretout combined.

I completely get FFP and taken in context selling Amavi is fine but I think other people are ignoring the fact that FFP will still exist next summer.  That's why filling the squad with championship journeymen and 30 somethings whilst selling or not playing the under 25s bothers me.  Lots of the players we've signed in the last 12-13 months are going to have to be in the team next season, even if we go up and the vast majority of them aren't good enough for that and are very unlikely to improve to any meaningful degree.


To flip this round a little bit how does an approach of, "good enough for now and we'll replace them when we get promoted" help to balance the books, has any team that has focused on buying experience ever been considered as the perfect example of sustainable club finances?

As I've said what we've done since Xia came in is almost carbon copy of what MON did 10-11 years ago.  What Round brings to things might be where we see a difference but I don't think that will work if we have managers like Bruce and are focusing on signing people like Whelan and Elmohamady.

How long do you envisage that process taking then Paul? 

That leads nicely to this.  I think there are 3 steps.

The first is to decide how you want to approach things and get the management and coaching team structured correctly to deliver that.  Until you do this there's no chance to start anything else because your entire footballing philosophy is based on the opinion of the manager and you're in a constant cycle of transition based on the wants of the guy who happens to be charge this year.  There's no timescale to this bit really, it just needs to happen.

The second bit is to build up a squad of 2-3 players in each position who are suited to that style.  With some addition from the youth team/reserves that will take 2-3 years but after 3 windows the core of the squad should be well established.  On the flip side the outs should be focused, where possible, on getting rid of the players who will not fit first and then the ones that are in the middle get a chance to adapt.

The final bit is to get all the back room stuff working towards the new philosophy so that in the long term the kids that are coming through are all used to playing the same way and are able to step in as backups/replacements as the team above starts to break up.  You're looking at 3-5 years for this to start taking effect and 7-8 for it to become fully established.

I don't disagree with that Paul and at least it is a vision of how to run the club, which is something that seems to have been lacking.  The first paragraph is the key bit though, as all that depends on the whim of the current manager.  We haven't had anything like that kind of joined up thinking, so to do that would involve major upheaval at the club and I don't think we're in the position to do that now.  We were in that position when MOn left and for his faults, Houllier was probably the right type of manager to usher in such changes. 

I also accept the part about young players, but I don't think we are alone in that, as many other clubs seem reluctant to use them as well.  I think a lot of it comes down to them being viewed as being a 'risk' by managers who fear for their job.  When we went down, I was hoping that it would mean that we would see more of the younger players, but given our situation I can understand the reluctance and the reliance on more seasoned campaigners.  Still doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to see Lyden, Green, Grealish, RHM and Davis feature more regularly next season.

[KRS]

With his poor defensive performances last season and prior to his injury, Amavi proved that he wasn't good enough for the Premier League or Championship, so to get near enough what we paid out for him is a good bit of business despite the inflated transfer fees other players are going for.

Regarding FFP, it is a concern but if we get promoted then it won't be such an issue as we'll have a significant rise in income with the Premier League money.