Roy Keane - new assistant manager (CONFIRMED)

[Dave]

I think that there is also the fact that for some players, the World Cup represents easily their best chance of putting themselves in the shop window. Look at Uruguay's and Costa Rica's players. We know that the majority of them wouldn't play regularly ahead of the players in the England team were they in the Premier League or those in the Italian team were they in Serie A. But, for those few games in the World Cup, they are able to step up a little. Look how much the Uruguayan players wanted that game last week. Look at Pereira refusing to be substituted. A lot of them don't play in front of huge crowds and earn fortunes week in, week out. For them it is maybe even a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I'm not sure that logic quite stacks up for most of the Uruguay team. None of the World Cup squad play in Uruguay and play for the likes of Atletico Madrid, Galatasaray, Liverpool, PSG, Lazio and Porto.

Álvaro Pereira plays for Inter Milan, so I don't think he's going to be too worried about putting himself in the shop window in a match against England.

[olaftab]

The population thing is a red herring, R5 and ITV have both been guilty of saying in a country of x million they should have achieved y.  If that is the case why havent China and India had a world cup lock out.  Players have to be competing at the highest levels?  England and Chile at different ends of the spectrum counter that.  Belgium shows you dont have to have a group of players playing in your own countries league, etc etc.  All excuses.  You just have to win six games, with no fear of any opposition, complete confidence in each other and a bit of luck

Amen to that. There's a tendency to over-analyse things when we get knocked out.

However since 1950 Uruguay shock  the WC has not been won by a Country just turning up and surprising  everyone by winning 6 games. The WC has ONLY been won by Countries with  medium to large population and history of well organised football played in their homeland. 

[pauliewalnuts]

If 75% of the country is no longer working class, what is it?

In denial.

[pauliewalnuts]

The population thing is a red herring, R5 and ITV have both been guilty of saying in a country of x million they should have achieved y.  If that is the case why havent China and India had a world cup lock out.  Players have to be competing at the highest levels?  England and Chile at different ends of the spectrum counter that.  Belgium shows you dont have to have a group of players playing in your own countries league, etc etc.  All excuses.  You just have to win six games, with no fear of any opposition, complete confidence in each other and a bit of luck

Amen to that. There's a tendency to over-analyse things when we get knocked out.

However since 1950 Uruguay shock  the WC has not been won by a Country just turning up and surprising  everyone by winning 6 games. The WC has ONLY been won by Countries with  medium to large population and history of well organised football played in their homeland. 

re Chile, although it's worth pointing out that everyone is getting excited about them on the basis of a couple of WC performances, their squad includes players who play at a pretty high level, including for the likes of Juventus and Barcelona, it's not as if they're all mooking around in their domestic league.

Goalkeepers: Claudio Bravo (Real Sociedad), Johnny Herrera (Universidad de Chile), Cristopher Toselli (Universidad Catolica)

Defenders: Gary Medel (Cardiff City), Gonzalo Jara (Nottingham Forest), Jose Rojas (Universidad de Chile), Eugenio Mena (Santos), Mauricio Isla (Juventus).

Midfielders: Jorge Valdivia (Palmeiras), Felipe Gutierrez (Twente), Jose Pedro Fuenzalida (Colo Colo), Francisco Silva (Osasuna), Arturo Vidal (Juventus), Charles Aranguiz (Internacional), Marcelo Diaz (Basel), Carlos Carmona (Atalanta), Miiko Albornoz (Malmo).

Forwards: Alexis Sanchez (Barcelona), Esteban Paredes (Colo Colo) Eduardo Vargas (Valencia), Jean Beausejour (Wigan Athletic), Mauricio Pinilla (Cagliari), Fabian Orellana (Celta).

[Dave]

Claudio Bravo has since signed for Barcelona as well.

[fbriai]

I think that there is also the fact that for some players, the World Cup represents easily their best chance of putting themselves in the shop window. Look at Uruguay's and Costa Rica's players. We know that the majority of them wouldn't play regularly ahead of the players in the England team were they in the Premier League or those in the Italian team were they in Serie A. But, for those few games in the World Cup, they are able to step up a little. Look how much the Uruguayan players wanted that game last week. Look at Pereira refusing to be substituted. A lot of them don't play in front of huge crowds and earn fortunes week in, week out. For them it is maybe even a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I'm not sure that logic quite stacks up for most of the Uruguay team. None of the World Cup squad play in Uruguay and play for the likes of Atletico Madrid, Galatasaray, Liverpool, PSG, Lazio and Porto.

Álvaro Pereira plays for Inter Milan, so I don't think he's going to be too worried about putting himself in the shop window in a match against England.

Fair enough, Dave. Maybe the point holds better for Costa Rica than it does for Uruguay, who, to be fair, have some very good players.

Although Pereira was pretty poor at Inter; he's actually on loan at Sao Paolo now, and will be until his Inter contract expires in 2016.

[LeeB]

When we evaluate players from other nations, it's always seems to be against the benchmark that the Premier League is the strongest league.
So if say Uruguay had a left back playing for Hull or such like, it would be "He's shit, he only plays for Hull, ours plays for Man Utd/Chelsea" or some suchlike.

But that's forgetting this lad has probably had to leave home at a young age to work in another land, and has to adapt the skills he has learned to fit in with an alien footballing culture. And then when he joins up with his international team he's more comfortable and his talent can shine through.

[itbrvilla]

When we evaluate players from other nations, it's always seems to be against the benchmark that the Premier League is the strongest league.
So if say Uruguay had a left back playing for Hull or such like, it would be "He's shit, he only plays for Hull, ours plays for Man Utd/Chelsea" or some suchlike.

But that's forgetting this lad has probably had to leave home at a young age to work in another land, and has to adapt the skills he has learned to fit in with an alien footballing culture. And then when he joins up with his international team he's more comfortable and his talent can shine through.

Good point.  But also,assumes that the English players at Yanited, Citeh etc. are better than those at Hull etc. regardless of matchtime or appearences, and that these players also play better as a team as they are from 'Top' clubs.

[AV82EC]

When we evaluate players from other nations, it's always seems to be against the benchmark that the Premier League is the strongest league.
So if say Uruguay had a left back playing for Hull or such like, it would be "He's shit, he only plays for Hull, ours plays for Man Utd/Chelsea" or some suchlike.

But that's forgetting this lad has probably had to leave home at a young age to work in another land, and has to adapt the skills he has learned to fit in with an alien footballing culture. And then when he joins up with his international team he's more comfortable and his talent can shine through.

Very good point. One of the major drawbacks of having the most popular league and supporting leagues in the world is the lack of mobility that English players and coaches display to go and experience other football cultures. I can only think of Joe Cole and Steve McClaren who have gone and experienced things abroad in the last few years. Funnily enough Hodgson is one of the few UK coaches with foreign experience.

[ClaretAndBlueBlood]

When we evaluate players from other nations, it's always seems to be against the benchmark that the Premier League is the strongest league.
So if say Uruguay had a left back playing for Hull or such like, it would be "He's shit, he only plays for Hull, ours plays for Man Utd/Chelsea" or some suchlike.

But that's forgetting this lad has probably had to leave home at a young age to work in another land, and has to adapt the skills he has learned to fit in with an alien footballing culture. And then when he joins up with his international team he's more comfortable and his talent can shine through.

Very good point. One of the major drawbacks of having the most popular league and supporting leagues in the world is the lack of mobility that English players and coaches display to go and experience other football cultures. I can only think of Joe Cole and Steve McClaren who have gone and experienced things abroad in the last few years. Funnily enough Hodgson is one of the few UK coaches with foreign experience.

I think lack of footballing ability also prevents most of our players from playing abroad

[LeeB]

When we evaluate players from other nations, it's always seems to be against the benchmark that the Premier League is the strongest league.
So if say Uruguay had a left back playing for Hull or such like, it would be "He's shit, he only plays for Hull, ours plays for Man Utd/Chelsea" or some suchlike.

But that's forgetting this lad has probably had to leave home at a young age to work in another land, and has to adapt the skills he has learned to fit in with an alien footballing culture. And then when he joins up with his international team he's more comfortable and his talent can shine through.

Very good point. One of the major drawbacks of having the most popular league and supporting leagues in the world is the lack of mobility that English players and coaches display to go and experience other football cultures. I can only think of Joe Cole and Steve McClaren who have gone and experienced things abroad in the last few years. Funnily enough Hodgson is one of the few UK coaches with foreign experience.

I think lack of footballing ability also prevents most of our players from playing abroad

You're right, of course.

The problem is, there are lots of problems, and there's no silver bullet solution.

[ClaretAndBlueBlood]

When we evaluate players from other nations, it's always seems to be against the benchmark that the Premier League is the strongest league.
So if say Uruguay had a left back playing for Hull or such like, it would be "He's shit, he only plays for Hull, ours plays for Man Utd/Chelsea" or some suchlike.

But that's forgetting this lad has probably had to leave home at a young age to work in another land, and has to adapt the skills he has learned to fit in with an alien footballing culture. And then when he joins up with his international team he's more comfortable and his talent can shine through.

Very good point. One of the major drawbacks of having the most popular league and supporting leagues in the world is the lack of mobility that English players and coaches display to go and experience other football cultures. I can only think of Joe Cole and Steve McClaren who have gone and experienced things abroad in the last few years. Funnily enough Hodgson is one of the few UK coaches with foreign experience.

I think lack of footballing ability also prevents most of our players from playing abroad

You're right, of course.

The problem is, there are lots of problems, and there's no silver bullet solution.

I think the crop of young players coming through have the potential to at least move us in the right direction. In my opinion, we are where Germany were 12 years ago in terms of trying to change the way we play football. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we will have the same success because the premier league and England are at odds with each other, have different goals and don't sing from the same hymnsheet.

In Germany, the Klinnsmann / Loew revolution was embraced by the clubs and the national team and they are now reaping the rewards of that

[Dave]

I think the crop of young players coming through have the potential to at least move us in the right direction. In my opinion, we are where Germany were 12 years ago in terms of trying to change the way we play football. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we will have the same success because the premier league and England are at odds with each other, have different goals and don't sing from the same hymnsheet.

In Germany, the Klinnsmann / Loew revolution was embraced by the clubs and the national team and they are now reaping the rewards of that

I agree with all of that. Also what Michel Sablon started with Belgium a couple of years earlier.

The likes of Barkley, Shaw, Stones and Sterling could potentially reach the level of the likes of Khedira, Ozil, Hummels and Muller.

The probably won't, but they could.

[pauliewalnuts]

I think the crop of young players coming through have the potential to at least move us in the right direction. In my opinion, we are where Germany were 12 years ago in terms of trying to change the way we play football.

I think we are at the point they were at, I'd agree with that, but we're only doing part of what they did.

They also invested hugely into youth football and training - which is exactly what the French did in the early 90s - as well. That's how come Germany has 10 times as many UEFA qualified coaches as we have.

We need to make that kind of change as well. It's fine to change the way the national team tries to play, but if you have the limited skill levels and paucity of options that the England squad has, you are always going to be limited. We need to change that part, as well, or it won't work.

[LeeB]

I think the crop of young players coming through have the potential to at least move us in the right direction. In my opinion, we are where Germany were 12 years ago in terms of trying to change the way we play football. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we will have the same success because the premier league and England are at odds with each other, have different goals and don't sing from the same hymnsheet.

In Germany, the Klinnsmann / Loew revolution was embraced by the clubs and the national team and they are now reaping the rewards of that

I agree with all of that. Also what Michel Sablon started with Belgium a couple of years earlier.

The likes of Barkley, Shaw, Stones and Sterling could potentially reach the level of the likes of Khedira, Ozil, Hummels and Muller.

The probably won't, but they could.

They wont though. The problems run deeper.