25 years today

[clash city rocker]

As the Stephen Lawrence case shows.. some old bill can not be trusted...it must really piss off the hard working honest coppers.

[garyfouroaks]

There was justice for Heysel. People went to prison for it. No-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough.

Nearly twice as many people died at Hillsborough than died at Bradford, and it is more recent, so it's hardly surprising it attracts more attention.

I don't understand why people bring Heysel into this discussion at all, unless they are implying in some way that Hillsborough was karma for it. They were two totally different incidents with different causes.

By any measure the response to Heysel by LFC, and the FA, was pathetic. It is difficult to support the claim that any sort of justice was served. The Belgian judicial review was perfunctory and neither the UEFA or FA held independent enquiries. If they had, the problems which the Belgian authorities had identified, poor stadia, inadequate policing, inadequate planning, and official indifference to the appalling behaviour of British fans abroad, might have resulted in action which would have headed off the inevitability of Hillsborough. A familiar litany of official incompetence and complacency joins Heysel to Hillsborough
Not a single Liverpool fan served a custodial sentence post conviction, although some were remanded in custody pre-trial. No record of fines being settled exists.

I agree and accept that the pre-eminence of Hillsborough over Bradford is down to the body count.

I disagree that there is not a line which can be drawn which links the death of a Leeds fan at St Andrews , Bradford, Heysel and Hillsborough. “ A slum sport played in slum grounds”

[dave.woodhall]

There was justice for Heysel. People went to prison for it. No-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough.

Nearly twice as many people died at Hillsborough than died at Bradford, and it is more recent, so it's hardly surprising it attracts more attention.

I don't understand why people bring Heysel into this discussion at all, unless they are implying in some way that Hillsborough was karma for it. They were two totally different incidents with different causes.

By any measure the response to Heysel by LFC, and the FA, was pathetic. It is difficult to support the claim that any sort of justice was served. The Belgian judicial review was perfunctory and neither the UEFA or FA held independent enquiries. If they had, the problems which the Belgian authorities had identified, poor stadia, inadequate policing, inadequate planning, and official indifference to the appalling behaviour of British fans abroad, might have resulted in action which would have headed off the inevitability of Hillsborough. A familiar litany of official incompetence and complacency joins Heysel to Hillsborough
Not a single Liverpool fan served a custodial sentence post conviction, although some were remanded in custody pre-trial. No record of fines being settled exists.

I agree and accept that the pre-eminence of Hillsborough over Bradford is down to the body count.

I disagree that there is not a line which can be drawn which links the death of a Leeds fan at St Andrews , Bradford, Heysel and Hillsborough. “ A slum sport played in slum grounds”

14 Liverpool supporters were convicted. Seven went to prison, the others receive suspended sentences. The official Liverpool website calls it the lowest point in the club's history. And this is neither the time, nor the place, to mention Heysel.

[garyfouroaks]

14 Liverpool supporters were convicted. Seven went to prison, the others receive suspended sentences. The official Liverpool website calls it the lowest point in the club's history. And this is neither the time, nor the place, to mention Heysel.

The links between Heysel and Hillsborough, poor stadia, indifferent authorities, poor policing and a total lack of official accountability are crystal clear. At a time when Justice and the truth are paramount in people's minds it would be wrong NOT to acknowledge that.

On a point of fact no Liverpool fan served a sentence post conviction. The seven to whom you refer were released having been remanded in custody for varying periods of time. Fines were not settled. The Belgian authorities just wanted to forget. It is something we should not do, 96 people paid for it with their lives just a few years later.

Hillsborough did not happen in a vacuum, there was a chilling evitability that it would happen somewhere, sometime. People ignored that at the time, to ignore it now would be wrong.

[dave.woodhall]

14 Liverpool supporters were convicted. Seven went to prison, the others receive suspended sentences. The official Liverpool website calls it the lowest point in the club's history. And this is neither the time, nor the place, to mention Heysel.

The links between Heysel and Hillsborough, poor stadia, indifferent authorities, poor policing and a total lack of official accountability are crystal clear. At a time when Justice and the truth are paramount in people's minds it would be wrong NOT to acknowledge that.

On a point of fact no Liverpool fan served a sentence post conviction. The seven to whom you refer were released having been remanded in custody for varying periods of time. Fines were not settled. The Belgian authorities just wanted to forget. It is something we should not do, 96 people paid for it with their lives just a few years later.

Hillsborough did not happen in a vacuum, there was a chilling evitability that it would happen somewhere, sometime. People ignored that at the time, to ignore it now would be wrong.

They still served time in prison. The Popplewell Inquiry covered Heysel, and as I said earlier this should be a thread to mark the deaths of 96 people at a football match not to bring up events of four years earlier. 

[bertlambshank]

Watched some of today I thought Martinez came across very well.

[usav]

ESPN had a 2 hour special on this tonight at 8pm (prime time).  Hard not to get dust in your eyes watching it and apparently, the program is not allowed to be shown in the UK.

[Richard E]

ESPN had a 2 hour special on this tonight at 8pm (prime time).  Hard not to get dust in your eyes watching it and apparently, the program is not allowed to be shown in the UK.

Yes, nothing which might be contentious can be shown whilst the inquest is ongoing as it is sub judice. All the BBC reports on the disaster are now showing relatively innocuous footage like the teams coming out or a policeman's helmet lying abandoned on the pitch. 

[fredm]

I haven't read this thread as no doubt it has regurgitated the arguments previously discussed, but the one issue that I cannot get my head round is that nowhere or nobody seems to be holding the FA in any way responsible for this.

Hillsborough did not have a safety certificate valid at the time - the match should never have been played there.  If it had not been held there, then hopefully this tragedy could not have occurred anywhere.

How come the FA are getting away with failing to fulfil the most basic requirement regarding staging a match?

[Richard E]

I haven't read this thread as no doubt it has regurgitated the arguments previously discussed, but the one issue that I cannot get my head round is that nowhere or nobody seems to be holding the FA in any way responsible for this.

Hillsborough did not have a safety certificate valid at the time - the match should never have been played there.  If it had not been held there, then hopefully this tragedy could not have occurred anywhere.

How come the FA are getting away with failing to fulfil the most basic requirement regarding staging a match?

Couldn't agree more. Both the FA and Sheffield Wednesday FC seem to get a remarkably easy ride over this whole affair.

[Steve R]

Are we really comparing tragedies here? Is there a league table somewhere that could be used as a point of reference? Small Heath vs Leeds would be the greatest tragedy if you were to ask the relatives of the poor sod that died.

After Heysel not every culpable party was properly brought to book for the role they played; Bradford does tend to be a bit of a forgotten tragedy. Does that really make the quest for justice for the Hillsborough victims any less worthy?

[richard moore]

Watched some of today I thought Martinez came across very well.

Yes, I agree. My admiration for him, which was pretty high anyway, continues to grow. He is obviously a very good manager and a gentleman to boot

[Drummond]

Regardless of blame, 96 people went to support their team in an FA Cup Semi Final and never came home.

Lessons were learnt, stadia were made safer and thankfully we've not seen the like of it again.

If it were my son, daughter, father, mother, brother, aunt, uncle or friend that hadn't come back, I'd want to know why and I'd want to know that it wouldn't happen to someone else. IF, someone was culpable, then they should be held to account, however, we have to remember they were different times and we had different standards of acceptable Health and Safety (as one example).

What shouldn't be acceptable, is that someone thought 'fuck 'em, they're only football scum' which, unfortunately, appears to have been the prevalent mood of the time. In addition, the changing of stories, the adulterated records of police officers etc. is also completely unacceptable and people should be held to account.

I just hope that no other family has to go through what these families have.


Finally, I'd just like to say that Heysel and Bradford were two completely different events and sets of circumstances that should never be compared to Hillsborough.

[Havencheese]

Had a look at some of the fence images. Utterly terrifying doesn't even describe it, men of all shapes and sizes, women, children with limbs contorted under struggle.

More than the judicial side to this, I was curious to know what some of the survivors had to say.

One survivor mentioned how just weeks after the disaster after lodging himself as a witness, later had police intimidate him during a home visit forcing him to sign papers he wasn't even allowed to read via their stand over tactics. Was later dismissed in their report as left leaning student, potentially not even at the game, a rebel rouser and police hater therefore dismissing him as a witness. Another who received the same treatment as a 17 y.o ironically joined the police force later, also recounted on the day using another man's body in order to climb to safety and the survivor guilt he suffered and a failed suicide attempt. What's also often overlooked is that there were numerous suicides, those lost to the bottle, mental illness and trauma suffered, marriage breakdowns let alone many diehard football fans who could never bring themselves to do something as simple as attend a match ever again.

Unfortunately the number in a way went far beyond 96.

[Chris Jameson]

My partner's cousin was at Hillsborough, he's a Liverpool supporter and wasn't in the Leppings Lane end but he hasn't been to a match since because of what he witnessed that day.