Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 08:23:28 AM

Title: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 08:23:28 AM: RIP and Justice for the 96.

If anyone still wonders what happened or why all football supporters should be behind the campaign, read this.

http://thestirrer.thebirminghampress.com/twenty-years-hurt-1504091.html
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 08:48:08 AM: Seconded.

The way the victims and their families were treated is a shame to this country, not just to football, that will echo down the years. I do not understand how anyone who is a football supporter, and certainly how anyone who followed their team away in the 1980s, could be anything other than 100% behind the justice campaign.

On any given day it could have been us, and nearly was on occasions.

RIP.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: richard moore on April 15, 2014, 08:55:57 AM: One of the 'nearly was occasions' for me was actually at Hillsborough if I recollect correctly. Can't remember if it was the 77 League Cup final replay or another match
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Villan For Life on April 15, 2014, 09:02:17 AM: RIP - Justice For The 96
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 09:34:40 AM: Anyone who needs the facts should read the excellent book "Hillsborough - The Truth" by Professor Phil Scraton. Chilling and will have you in tears by the end.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: richard moore on April 15, 2014, 09:43:07 AM: Quote from: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
Anyone who needs the facts should read the excellent book "Hillsborough - The Truth" by Professor Phil Scraton. Chilling and will have you in tears by the end.

Yes, an excellent book
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Jameson on April 15, 2014, 09:44:29 AM: One of those dates I can remember exactly where I was when the news broke. I still get emotional when I see footage of Hillsborough or the masses of flowers carpeting Anfield. Can't imagine what it's been like for the families the last 25 years but I've got so much respect and admiration for them.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Simon Ward on April 15, 2014, 09:46:51 AM: Indeed RIP the 96.

Stirring piece Dave, never read it before but obviously living in Yorkshire I've heard and seen the story unfold in the local news over the last 25 years. Some of the stories are horrendous and the police cover up on a scale never seen before. I got to know second hand some of the family of Tony Bland (the 96th casualty) and what they went through no family should ever have to experience. I can only hope and pray that the new inquests currently going on in Warrington get to the real truth.

This website is interesting:

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: 144 Hard Boiled Eggs on April 15, 2014, 10:56:55 AM: Yes, as mentioned, the 1977 League Cup Final replay has stuck in my mind. I can still remember standing on the big terrace opposite the Leppings Lane End and noticing all through the game the colossal surges of the Everton fans packed in. It was nothing unusual in those days to see surging crowds on the terraces (and I must admit, as a kid back then, an exciting part of being in a packed football ground) but that night it seemed on another level.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: snetta on April 15, 2014, 11:26:42 AM: I remember a Blues/Villa game at the Sty mid to late eighties when there was such a crush at the Tilton turnstiles that the Police opened the gates to save a young girl from being crushed. Hundreds of Villa fans were allowed through. Another near miss.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Charlie8182 on April 15, 2014, 11:46:21 AM: I was at that match at West Ham in early 1989, I only just got in and my feet never touch the floor all night. Thankfully indeed Upton Park didn't have fences.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: flybo on April 15, 2014, 11:49:23 AM: Justice For The 96 lets hope they get it. RIP
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Jimbo on April 15, 2014, 11:57:48 AM: West Ham away in the League Cup, in the January prior to Hillsborough. It could so easily have been us.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Holte L2 on April 15, 2014, 12:32:39 PM: RIP. Justice for the 96.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: exigo on April 15, 2014, 12:41:26 PM: I had the pleasure of meeting Margaret Aspinall last year. She's been through so much, yet still shows amazing strength. Thoughts are with her and all those still looking for the truth.

RIP. Justice for the 96.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 15, 2014, 12:44:39 PM: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/EnglishPride2004/10268621_750190548358350_7103039331131625164_n_zps84344930.png)
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: nodge on April 15, 2014, 12:55:00 PM: I remember the '77 replay at Hillsborough. I was 12 at the time and recall that we came in from the left hand side facing the pitch. It was really packed trying to get in and I remember it because for years after my sister used to take the mickey because as we were going in I lost my bobble hat because I couldn't move my arms to grab it. I don't think we realised how serious it was until a woman managed to get through and screamed at the stewards that people were getting crushed back there. Eventually they let us through to walk along the front of the terrace to the middle where we couldn't believe how sparse it was. Unbelievable how they couldn't spot the dangers and act quicker.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Jameson on April 15, 2014, 01:11:46 PM: Quote from: exigo on April 15, 2014, 12:41:26 PM
I had the pleasure of meeting Margaret Aspinall last year. She's been through so much, yet still shows amazing strength. Thoughts are with her and all those still looking for the truth.

RIP. Justice for the 96.

Whenever they did those. 'Mum of the year' things Margaret or Ann Williams should have won it every single time.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: villajk on April 15, 2014, 02:48:21 PM: RIP. Let's hope Justice is done.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Rigadon on April 15, 2014, 02:51:32 PM: RIP. I think justice is near.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Vanilla on April 15, 2014, 03:26:33 PM: I remember that day. I was playing football in the garden, and my parents called us in to show this news report (I had been a glory supporting Liverpool fan for a few years, but used go to Villa games - odd I know).

As a 12 year old, and having grew up in the 80s, there seemed to be a disaster virtually every week - Piper Alpha, Kings Cross, Lockerbie etc. Even football had been beset by them with Heysel and Bradford.

Hillsborough always shook me for seemingly how unbelievable it was that, in such an event as a football game, in a little area behind the goal, so many people died, and how they seemed stuck there, with the authorities just sitting back watching.

The perception of football fans as scum at the time caused that disaster and the following cover up.

If we had observed the disaster happening in another country, we would be wringing our hands at the typical behaviour of a country beset by corruption and stuck in a time-warp.

Hopefully, justice will be done for all those affected.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 04:08:02 PM: Hillsborough is the very stuff of how disasters happen, the ordinary going extraordinarily wrong with a backdrop of individual component parts, all likely to contribute to a disaster, but which don’t, until everything goes wrong simultaneously.

A central paradox to the disaster is that it was a non-hooligan related disaster borne out of thirty years of hooliganism. So although we are right to clean the stain of hooliganism from those who died that day, the context of why it happened was provided by what had happened before.

Twenty five years on it is difficult to appreciate how much has changed, and how much was tolerated. Thirty years of terrace warfare had wiped thousands off gates , games were routinely the backcloth to mob battles and containment was the order of the day. The authorities clubs, and many fans had given up. Gate storming, robbery and violence were the norm, and Liverpool were not immune. Tony Evan’s “Far Foreign lands” and Nicky Alts’ “The Mersey Boys” both offer excellent first- hand accounts of the era.

Heysel will always be the elephant in the room for Liverpool, and the FA. If a proper UK enquiry had taken place the lessons learned may have averted Hillsborough. The component parts, poor stadium choice, inadequate stadium facilities, a focus on crowd control and not safety but he police and authorities, and the way that football crowds behaved then are to be found in both disasters. But Liverpool, and the FA looked the other way, the rest is history.

The role of the Police is curiously positioned these days and has done much to hinder progress, with the Police themselves perverting the course of justice to little benefit. By the standards of the day opening a gate outside to relieve crowd pressure was not unusual, the results were. Incompetence and or negligence in doing so was always going to be hard to press.

But in the same way that “blame” associated with the gate opening is probably harsh ( by the standards of the day), what followed was far worse. Institutional perjury by an entire force had never happened before with the possible exception of the Flying Squad “fit up” scandals in the Met and West Midlands. Names and responsibility for the cover-up is far more clear cut than for the disaster itself.

How did the FA allow a showpiece event to take place at a ground without a current safety certificate? How did Sheffield Council allow any sporting event to be held there? How did the Football league allow any games at all to be played there? And in an era of IRA terrorism why was there no “disaster plan” held by the Police and Ambulance authorities for major public events?

The finest legacy for the 96 are football grounds now fit for purpose with not a single ground related death at a British football ground since. One of the further paradoxes is how the Leppings Lane End defied demolition and Anfield remains substantially unredeveloped when so much has been done elsewhere.

Hopefully the current inquest will reveal all that needs to be revealed. The major battle, to clear the names of the 96, is all but won. Maybe the 21st Century stadia we enjoy is an unappreciated by-product of their sacrifice. .Most of the Police on duty that day were working class men and football fans themselves, they did not set out to take life willfully, or by negligence. But there is understandable and rightful anger at those who lied afterwards and I believe that is where the focus should now lie.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: barrysleftfoot on April 15, 2014, 04:37:38 PM: Very good article garyfouroaks.The big issue for me is that there was such a cover up, which has now really been admitted, and that Duckworth et al panicked and tried to hide their inadequacies by blaming the fans.

Now i accept all that, and accept that those responsible should be held to account, with possible , if relevant, legal action taken.But when i hear justice for the 96, i'm a bit confused about what "justice" they actually want, is it prosecutions or what?

Don't want to offend, just clarification.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 04:56:18 PM: Away supporters really were treated like garbage in those days. I remember being compulsorily route marched from Liverpool Station to Anfield hours before kick off, whether you wanted to go straight there or not and even though I hadn't gone on the football special. A Villa fan was arrested merely for stepping off the pavement. If you wanted to go into the city centre to get a drink, or a bite to eat, or meet someone who was expecting you, tough.

It also got me thinking about when Nottingham police penned hundreds in at the railway station, ticket holders included, until a train could take everyone back to New Street because the away end was allegedly already full. Blatant false imprisonment. I wasn't there that day but did anyone else get caught up in it?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 05:02:23 PM: Quote from: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 04:08:02 PM
Hillsborough is the very stuff of how disasters happen, the ordinary going extraordinarily wrong with a backdrop of individual component parts, all likely to contribute to a disaster, but which don’t, until everything goes wrong simultaneously.

A central paradox to the disaster is that it was a non-hooligan related disaster borne out of thirty years of hooliganism. So although we are right to clean the stain of hooliganism from those who died that day, the context of why it happened was provided by what had happened before.

Twenty five years on it is difficult to appreciate how much has changed, and how much was tolerated. Thirty years of terrace warfare had wiped thousands off gates , games were routinely the backcloth to mob battles and containment was the order of the day. The authorities clubs, and many fans had given up. Gate storming, robbery and violence were the norm, and Liverpool were not immune. Tony Evan’s “Far Foreign lands” and Nicky Alts’ “The Mersey Boys” both offer excellent first- hand accounts of the era.

Heysel will always be the elephant in the room for Liverpool, and the FA. If a proper UK enquiry had taken place the lessons learned may have averted Hillsborough. The component parts, poor stadium choice, inadequate stadium facilities, a focus on crowd control and not safety but he police and authorities, and the way that football crowds behaved then are to be found in both disasters. But Liverpool, and the FA looked the other way, the rest is history.

The role of the Police is curiously positioned these days and has done much to hinder progress, with the Police themselves perverting the course of justice to little benefit. By the standards of the day opening a gate outside to relieve crowd pressure was not unusual, the results were. Incompetence and or negligence in doing so was always going to be hard to press.

But in the same way that “blame” associated with the gate opening is probably harsh ( by the standards of the day), what followed was far worse. Institutional perjury by an entire force had never happened before with the possible exception of the Flying Squad “fit up” scandals in the Met and West Midlands. Names and responsibility for the cover-up is far more clear cut than for the disaster itself.

How did the FA allow a showpiece event to take place at a ground without a current safety certificate? How did Sheffield Council allow any sporting event to be held there? How did the Football league allow any games at all to be played there? And in an era of IRA terrorism why was there no “disaster plan” held by the Police and Ambulance authorities for major public events?

The finest legacy for the 96 are football grounds now fit for purpose with not a single ground related death at a British football ground since. One of the further paradoxes is how the Leppings Lane End defied demolition and Anfield remains substantially unredeveloped when so much has been done elsewhere.

Hopefully the current inquest will reveal all that needs to be revealed. The major battle, to clear the names of the 96, is all but won. Maybe the 21st Century stadia we enjoy is an unappreciated by-product of their sacrifice. .Most of the Police on duty that day were working class men and football fans themselves, they did not set out to take life willfully, or by negligence. But there is understandable and rightful anger at those who lied afterwards and I believe that is where the focus should now lie.

The problem was not so much the opening of the gates as not shutting off access to the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4. If they had done that then the people coming through gate C would have been redirected to the pens on either side, where there was plenty of room.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 05:07:26 PM: Quote from: barrysleftfoot on April 15, 2014, 04:37:38 PM
Very good article garyfouroaks.The big issue for me is that there was such a cover up, which has now really been admitted, and that Duckworth et al panicked and tried to hide their inadequacies by blaming the fans.

Now i accept all that, and accept that those responsible should be held to account, with possible , if relevant, legal action taken.But when i hear justice for the 96, i'm a bit confused about what "justice" they actually want, is it prosecutions or what?

Don't want to offend, just clarification.

I think they want:-

1) A proper inquest that fully considers all aspects of the matter including the emergency service response and whether lives could have been saved;

2) Prosecutions where appropriate;

1) appears to be happening. We shall have to see what happens on 2).
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: tomd2103 on April 15, 2014, 05:31:43 PM: Quote from: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 04:08:02 PM
Most of the Police on duty that day were working class men and football fans themselves, they did not set out to take life willfully, or by negligence. But there is understandable and rightful anger at those who lied afterwards and I believe that is where the focus should now lie.

Pretty much agree with that. You would hope that those who told those shameful lies have felt remorse and guilt about their actions over the past 25 years, but who knows.

I remember sitting in the kitchen at home on the day it happened with my parents and my brother, listening as the reports came in on the radio. I can quite clearly remember an emotional Jimmy Armifield on commentary saying "there's a young boy down there who won't be waking up tomorrow" and that really hitting home. I think what also hit home for most football fans was that it could have easily been them and their family on that terrace that day.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: avfc_1874 on April 15, 2014, 05:56:36 PM: I found this a good read from a viewpoint of a resident that lived close to Hillsborough on that day http://yicetor.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/hillsborough-disaster/
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Dave Clark Five on April 15, 2014, 06:03:35 PM: Quote from: avfc_1874 on April 15, 2014, 05:56:36 PM
I found this a good read from a viewpoint of a resident that lived close to Hillsborough on that day http://yicetor.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/hillsborough-disaster/

Great find. It really brings things to life, being so well written and descriptive. A good post from garyfouroaks also.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Smith on April 15, 2014, 06:08:09 PM: I was at a wedding, not a great memory for the happy couple.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:22:25 PM: I guess my comments will not go down well but it seems that some points are simply forgotten in all this .........

Why did numerous Liverpool fans attempt to gain access without tickets?
Why did these Liverpool fans arrive at the ground so late to kick off?
Were many of these fans not drinking heavily just before kick off?

I am sorry but these Liverpool fans have to take blame for what happened 25 years ago

Many errors took place on the day and yes I am sure not all the truth has been told BUT if people without tickets had not attempted to gain access and people had arrived in a sober condition earlier would the events still have happened ?

I am sure the 96 were innocent parties as they were people in the ground with tickets and its sad what happened

However Liverpool are not the innocent parties that they wish us to believe

Sorry for taking very much the opposite view
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 15, 2014, 06:26:10 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:22:25 PM
I guess my comments will not go down well but it seems that some points are simply forgotten in all this .........

Why did numerous Liverpool fans attempt to gain access without tickets?
Why did these Liverpool fans arrive at the ground so late to kick off?
Were many of these fans not drinking heavily just before kick off?

I am sorry but these Liverpool fans have to take blame for what happened 25 years ago

Many errors took place on the day and yes I am sure not all the truth has been told BUT if people without tickets had not attempted to gain access and people had arrived in a sober condition earlier would the events still have happened ?

I am sure the 96 were innocent parties as they were people in the ground with tickets and its sad what happened

However Liverpool are not the innocent parties that they wish us to believe

Sorry for taking very much the opposite view

Apology not accepted.

I cannot believe that even after the independent panels findings, some still believe the myths and smears peddled by the media and the police of the time.

Even the most cursory research would show anyone that the number of ticketless, late and drunk fans showing up was completely negligible and not a factor.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 06:28:04 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:22:25 PM
I guess my comments will not go down well but it seems that some points are simply forgotten in all this .........

Why did numerous Liverpool fans attempt to gain access without tickets?
Why did these Liverpool fans arrive at the ground so late to kick off?
Were many of these fans not drinking heavily just before kick off?

I am sorry but these Liverpool fans have to take blame for what happened 25 years ago

Many errors took place on the day and yes I am sure not all the truth has been told BUT if people without tickets had not attempted to gain access and people had arrived in a sober condition earlier would the events still have happened ?

I am sure the 96 were innocent parties as they were people in the ground with tickets and its sad what happened

However Liverpool are not the innocent parties that they wish us to believe

Sorry for taking very much the opposite view

Have you read the piece in the first post or do you only read the Sun?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Olneythelonely on April 15, 2014, 06:31:06 PM: People arrived late because there were a couple of accidents on the motorway.

People were drinking because it was a football match, people do.

People always turn up at events without tickets. People were being crushed outside the turnstiles. The gates were opened on the instructions of the man in charge. Have you been to Hillsborough?

I'm all for people having opinions, but I do expect them to have done at least the most basic of research, before I lend their opinions any weight.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: CT on April 15, 2014, 06:37:34 PM: Had a long Motorway journey today with my (nearly) 9 yr old and he asked me what was the Hillsborough tradgedy as it was being mentioned so often on 5 Live.

I explained what happened on the day but also the shameful response of what happened afterwards. He couldn't even comprehend a world where football supporters were treated like scum, week in and week out.

I also told him about me being at West Ham (as others have mentioned earlier) and what happened that night. I'm sure it's not lost to all of us there how serious that could have been but for the fenceless ground.

I was at Preston North End on 15/4/89 - their fans first reaction was much the same as "Leicester" - It's all their fault, they always spoil it for everyone, typical pissed-up Liverpool fans.

Those families deserve endless credit for what they've done - shame on the top brass of the SYP and shame on The Sun. I even remember going to Hillsborough with Villa (just in the Upper Tier that was open) and seeing the Police manhandling our fans trying to drop a rose onto the Lower Tier.

It will be way too late, but I hope justice is eventually served.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: tomd2103 on April 15, 2014, 06:37:45 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:22:25 PM
I guess my comments will not go down well but it seems that some points are simply forgotten in all this .........

Why did numerous Liverpool fans attempt to gain access without tickets?
Why did these Liverpool fans arrive at the ground so late to kick off?
Were many of these fans not drinking heavily just before kick off?

I am sorry but these Liverpool fans have to take blame for what happened 25 years ago

Many errors took place on the day and yes I am sure not all the truth has been told BUT if people without tickets had not attempted to gain access and people had arrived in a sober condition earlier would the events still have happened ?

I am sure the 96 were innocent parties as they were people in the ground with tickets and its sad what happened

However Liverpool are not the innocent parties that they wish us to believe

Sorry for taking very much the opposite view

Points 1 & 3 - Those were hardly exceptional circumstances for big games back then (remember similar things happening with us at Swindon the year before).

Point 2 - Long delays due to roadworks on the M62 was the reason for many Liverpool fans being late.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 06:37:57 PM: The Health and Safety Executive did an exhaustive count and found if anything that the stand was under occupied. It was just that the crowd was not distributed between the pens safely. There is literally no evidence whatever that there were loads of ticketless fans.

People largely weren't late. They were there within the time specified on the tickets. There weren't enough turnstiles for the flow of people. To the extent there was lateness it was because of traffic.

Both the Taylor Report and the Independent Panel found no evidence of drink over and above what is normal on a social occasion. It isn't illegal to have a pint on your day off before a big match.

Please do some basic reading on the subject before passing comment on it. The Liverpool fans were not responsible for their own or their fellow supporters' deaths in any way. Don't forget many of the dead were people who entered the ground when Gate C was opened, so the suggestion the guilty latecomers squashed the innocents at the front is a total myth.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 06:38:27 PM: Quote from: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 05:02:23 PM
The problem was not so much the opening of the gates as not shutting off access to the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4. If they had done that then the people coming through gate C would have been redirected to the pens on either side, where there was plenty of room.
Certainly it was possible to close the entrance to the central pens, but gates had been opened before at other grounds without that precaution. Radio communication was erratic, the crush was escalating, a Judgement of Solomon awaited, do you risk death or serious injury in the crush outside, or hope that everything would sort itself out, as it had before, by opening the gates? Stewarding was primeval, the Police were focussed on crowd control, not crowd safety.

There was the option for fans to access the wing pens, some did, but many chose the central entrance and to push their way in, and in doing so crushed their fellow fans to death. Normally there was sufficient spare space for fans to spill sideways at games, this time there was not. I don’t blame those fans, that was what you did in those days.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: darren woolley on April 15, 2014, 06:38:59 PM: RIP Justice for the 96.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 06:42:16 PM: Quote from: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 06:38:27 PM
Quote from: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 05:02:23 PM
The problem was not so much the opening of the gates as not shutting off access to the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4. If they had done that then the people coming through gate C would have been redirected to the pens on either side, where there was plenty of room.
Certainly it was possible to close the entrance to the central pens, but gates had been opened before at other grounds without that precaution. Radio communication was erratic, the crush was escalating, a Judgement of Solomon awaited, do you risk death or serious injury in the crush outside, or hope that everything would sort itself out, as it had before, by opening the gates? Stewarding was primeval, the Police were focussed on crowd control, not crowd safety.

There was the option for fans to access the wing pens, some did, but many chose the central entrance and to push their way in, and in doing so crushed their fellow fans to death. Normally there was sufficient spare space for fans to spill sideways at games, this time there was not. I don’t blame those fans, that was what you did in those days.

Fair enough, but the entrance to the tunnel had been shut off in previous years when it was full, and people largely went down the tunnel rather than to the sides because the signage was so crap it wasn't at all clear that you had any option but to enter the terrace up the tunnel. And it's harsh to blame people for pushing when they have no reason to know there is a deadly crush developing at the other end of a dark, upward sloping tunnel.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM: Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 15, 2014, 06:45:25 PM: There was no cover up at Heysel or Bradford.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 06:46:20 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:22:25 PM
I guess my comments will not go down well but it seems that some points are simply forgotten in all this .........

Why did numerous Liverpool fans attempt to gain access without tickets?
Why did these Liverpool fans arrive at the ground so late to kick off?
Were many of these fans not drinking heavily just before kick off?

I am sorry but these Liverpool fans have to take blame for what happened 25 years ago

Many errors took place on the day and yes I am sure not all the truth has been told BUT if people without tickets had not attempted to gain access and people had arrived in a sober condition earlier would the events still have happened ?

I am sure the 96 were innocent parties as they were people in the ground with tickets and its sad what happened

However Liverpool are not the innocent parties that they wish us to believe

Sorry for taking very much the opposite view

Arriving ticketless at big games was common in those days, with gate storms not uncommon. BUT, the enquiry did not find that ticketless fans caused the gates to be opened, or that there were a large number intent on forcing the gates ( although that had happened elsewhere).

Arriving late for kick offs at Hillsborough was an occupational hazard with the traffic for semi finals. Some may have delayed to mob up, but if they did, it wasn't a factor here according to the Enquiry. Furthermore the Leppings lane entrances were notoriously inadequate.

English fans drink before games, some are drunk on arrival, but there was no evidence that drunken fans caused the disaster.

I am sure the Police officers who policed the Leppings Lane end that day are haunted by their decisions and indecisions, as are those Liverpool fans who crushed their own.Neither acted willfully.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: balloubaby on April 15, 2014, 06:50:27 PM: The images that haunted me were those taken from the far stand that showed Leppings Lane from about half two till after kick off. They were taken ever 5 minutes and the picture just after kick-off was horrendous. It was inconceivable to see so many fans in that small space and the few that we're attempting to climb out. I remember reading the book mentioned earlier that had accounts from survivors. All left me sobbing, particularly one from a young man who recalled a girl crushed against him and the frantic kicking of her feet against his seeking help. Sadly help didn't come quick enough and the kicks faded away. The man barely alive himself later looked down to see the life crushed out of her.

I am sorry that some still see it fit to question or apportion some blame at fellow supporters. Justice indeed and not before time. X
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 06:51:24 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

There was justice for Heysel. People went to prison for it. No-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough.

Nearly twice as many people died at Hillsborough than died at Bradford, and it is more recent, so it's hardly surprising it attracts more attention.

I don't understand why people bring Heysel into this discussion at all, unless they are implying in some way that Hillsborough was karma for it. They were two totally different incidents with different causes.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:53:40 PM: "I am sure the Police officers who policed the Leppings Lane end that day are haunted by their decisions and indecisions, as are those Liverpool fans who crushed their own.Neither acted willfully."

I agree with the above comment ...... there were lots of factors but nobody wanted what happened to happen
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Olneythelonely on April 15, 2014, 06:55:19 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

Heysel was caused by football hooliganism. The authorities lied and said Hillsborough was about football hooliganism.

You see the difference, right?

Why was Bradford more of a tragedy than Hillsborough? Where have you formed your opinion on Hillsborough? Have you ever arrived late for kick off? Have you ever had a drink before a game? Have you ever been to a football match?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 15, 2014, 07:00:20 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

You are coming across as extremely anti Liverpool though.

What do you make of 116 police statements, that originally showed the police in a negative light being amended?
What do you make of David Duckenfield lying and saying that it was Liverpool fans who forced the gate, when in reality it was his order for the gate to be opened?
What do you think of the unprecedented decision to take blood alcohol level readings from the dead, regardless of age?
What do you think of the coroners decision to state that all had effectively died by 3:15, allowing the police and other emergency services actions after to go unchallenged?

As for "all believing the Liverpool fans were innocent then"

Well, even though it's pretty easy for us to work that one out all by ourselves, we also have the Taylor report, and the findings of the Hillsborough independent panel to back up that opinion.

You on the other hand, have the "Truth" article the sun penned in 89, and the accounts of the completely discredited South Yorkshire Police force to back up your viewpoint.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Smith on April 15, 2014, 07:01:14 PM: I am shocked that with everything that has been said and written about that terrible day that there are still people so ill informed that they still peddle the same clichéd myths.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 07:02:34 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

What you've written is a microcosm of this article:

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

"They turned up late, they were pissed, they didn't have tickets."

"It's been proved that they didn't, they weren't and they did."

"Er, well what about Heysel then?"
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Nev on April 15, 2014, 07:08:27 PM: As was pointed out by the initial article, it was only a matter of time before a tragedy of this kind occurred.

I was in the seats at that game at West Ham, I was also in the crush outside Ipswich in '87 where we spent the first fifteen minutes of the game sitting down with a cold drink recovering from the crush, I was at Swindon where it happened again and many on here can recall other situations where luck conspired to keep us all alive.

The first reaction of many fans I spoke to after Hillsborough was of sad inevitability given past experience, and a sigh of relief.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Dave Cooper please on April 15, 2014, 07:08:35 PM: Quote from: Jimbo on April 15, 2014, 11:57:48 AM
West Ham away in the League Cup, in the January prior to Hillsborough. It could so easily have been us.

The only game I've walked away from before getting in. It was awful outside and I decided more beer would be better than bothering to watch in discomfort. Glad I did when I heard some of the stories on the way back afterwards.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Steve kirk on April 15, 2014, 07:14:07 PM: The disgrace following that tragic day was how Thatchers Tory government and the police closed ranks and lied through there teeth, they are still lying about it to this day.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 15, 2014, 07:17:03 PM: I suppose we'll never know how much the police lied to the government at the time. They lied to everyone else.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: ACVilla on April 15, 2014, 07:26:58 PM: Never, ever forgotten.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Jameson on April 15, 2014, 07:30:19 PM: I see the Man United fanzine 'Red Issue' has stayed classy today.

Can't believe people are still choosing to believe the lies printed in that vile rag. Putting aside your obvious hatred for all things Liverpool can you not understand it could have happened to anybody?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 15, 2014, 07:37:10 PM: Quote from: Chris Jameson on April 15, 2014, 07:30:19 PM
I see the Man United fanzine 'Red Issue' has stayed classy today.

Can't believe people are still choosing to believe the lies printed in that vile rag. Putting aside your obvious hatred for all things Liverpool can you not understand it could have happened to anybody?

Red Issue, quite possibly the only thing in print that can make The Sun look tasteful.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 07:44:57 PM: Quote from: Olneythelonely on April 15, 2014, 06:55:19 PM
Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

Heysel was caused by football hooliganism. The authorities lied and said Hillsborough was about football hooliganism.

You see the difference, right?

Why was Bradford more of a tragedy than Hillsborough? Where have you formed your opinion on Hillsborough? Have you ever arrived late for kick off? Have you ever had a drink before a game? Have you ever been to a football match?

In answer to your questions ......

I think its obvious why Bradford was more of a tragedy
My opinion is based purely on that ...just the same as yours is on your opinion
If late by seconds
Drink ...NO do that after the game
Maybe never been to a game ........ I watch Villa as a season ticket holder !

Were you actually there? Unlikely so we all have views which are second hand ....but then thats whats good about this country we are are able to have a view !

Dont suppose next we will accept that Gerrard has ever thrown an elbow lol
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 07:48:35 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Quote from: Olneythelonely on April 15, 2014, 06:55:19 PM
Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

Heysel was caused by football hooliganism. The authorities lied and said Hillsborough was about football hooliganism.

You see the difference, right?

Why was Bradford more of a tragedy than Hillsborough? Where have you formed your opinion on Hillsborough? Have you ever arrived late for kick off? Have you ever had a drink before a game? Have you ever been to a football match?

In answer to your questions ......

I think its obvious why Bradford was more of a tragedy
My opinion is based purely on that ...just the same as yours is on your opinion
If late by seconds
Drink ...NO do that after the game
Maybe never been to a game ........ I watch Villa as a season ticket holder !

Were you actually there? Unlikely so we all have views which are second hand ....but then thats whats good about this country we are are able to have a view !

Dont suppose next we will accept that Gerrard has ever thrown an elbow lol

My opinion is based on the Taylor Report, the Health & Safety Executive's work and the 450,000 pages of evidence gathered after the event. What about yours?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Jameson on April 15, 2014, 07:49:13 PM: Quote from: PeterWithesShin on April 15, 2014, 07:37:10 PM
Quote from: Chris Jameson on April 15, 2014, 07:30:19 PM
I see the Man United fanzine 'Red Issue' has stayed classy today.

Can't believe people are still choosing to believe the lies printed in that vile rag. Putting aside your obvious hatred for all things Liverpool can you not understand it could have happened to anybody?

Red Issue, quite possibly the only thing in print that can make The Sun look tasteful.

Gave the world Pete Boyle too. I'm still struggling to get my head round the stupidity of a fellow H&V poster. He even managed to shoehorn Heysel and Bradford in as well.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Ger Regan on April 15, 2014, 07:54:59 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Quote from: Olneythelonely on April 15, 2014, 06:55:19 PM
Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

Heysel was caused by football hooliganism. The authorities lied and said Hillsborough was about football hooliganism.

You see the difference, right?

Why was Bradford more of a tragedy than Hillsborough? Where have you formed your opinion on Hillsborough? Have you ever arrived late for kick off? Have you ever had a drink before a game? Have you ever been to a football match?

In answer to your questions ......

I think its obvious why Bradford was more of a tragedy
My opinion is based purely on that ...just the same as yours is on your opinion
If late by seconds
Drink ...NO do that after the game
Maybe never been to a game ........ I watch Villa as a season ticket holder !

Were you actually there? Unlikely so we all have views which are second hand ....but then thats whats good about this country we are are able to have a view !

Dont suppose next we will accept that Gerrard has ever thrown an elbow lol
Tedious, ignorant, biased rubbish.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Jameson on April 15, 2014, 08:06:14 PM: Every time there is mention of Hillsborough some ignorant, ill informed person (to be polite) with some sort of irrational hatred of Liverpool has to mention Heysel or Bradford. It's tedious, if you feel so strongly about the two events (and they were tragic and trust me not forgotten about) then why not start a thread about the events instead of regurgitating the crap and the lies that were printed 25 years ago in a shitty little rag?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Steve kirk on April 15, 2014, 08:09:24 PM: Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Quote from: Olneythelonely on April 15, 2014, 06:55:19 PM
Quote from: Leicester_Villian on April 15, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Seems we all seem to believe Liverpool fans were innocent then ...........

Guess they were also innocent at another game when many were killed ............ where is the justice for those guys? Or have the media misled us again?

The biggest tragedy in my eyes in football stadiums in the past 25 years was Bradford and that just almost passes without a mention ........

I am not anti Liverpool but the coverage in my eyes is simply OTT

Heysel was caused by football hooliganism. The authorities lied and said Hillsborough was about football hooliganism.

You see the difference, right?

Why was Bradford more of a tragedy than Hillsborough? Where have you formed your opinion on Hillsborough? Have you ever arrived late for kick off? Have you ever had a drink before a game? Have you ever been to a football match?

In answer to your questions ......

I think its obvious why Bradford was more of a tragedy
My opinion is based purely on that ...just the same as yours is on your opinion
If late by seconds
Drink ...NO do that after the game
Maybe never been to a game ........ I watch Villa as a season ticket holder !

Were you actually there? Unlikely so we all have views which are second hand ....but then thats whats good about this country we are are able to have a view !

Dont suppose next we will accept that Gerrard has ever thrown an elbow lol

You have every right to hold the view you have however I think Dave started this thread as a sign of respect for the 96 and its now disintegrating with every response you give so can you leave it be now please?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Nev on April 15, 2014, 08:13:20 PM: Sorry, but I find the final reference to the trivial and unimportant opinions we all have regarding the merits of a footballer in this context grossly offensive.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: saunders_heroes on April 15, 2014, 08:14:27 PM: I don't for one minute agree with Leicester_Villain but it does seem that the Bradford disaster has been somewhat forgotten in this country and never gets the wall to wall coverage of memorial services like Hillsborough. Perhaps it's because they have closure and there's not any controversy surrounding it, but I don't remember every league game kicking off late out of respect to those who died like it did last weekend for the Liverpool disaster.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2014, 08:19:17 PM: I also think a lot of people think of Hillsborough as a tragedy where lots of people died, full stop.

It would be bad enough if it were just that, but it wasn't, it was a series of lies and cover ups involving the police, the press and - almost certainly - the government of this country, which meant that those families didn't just lose their loved ones 25 years ago, they had their faces rubbed in the shit for almost that whole time after.

They've also had to live with the lingering suspicion that their relatives, or peers of them, were in some way responsible for their deaths. Imagine what that feels like. Imagine what it feels like to have your teenage daughters' dead bodies alcohol level tested to find some way of blaming them. How must that feel? How must it feel to lose your children and be treated so utterly callously by your country, your police?

They also have to put up with utter, utter bollocks of the like posted by Leicester Villain, which is a very good example of this. Some people will just never get the message, they will always think the fans were in some way to blame, they will say things like "I think it's obvious why Bradford was more of a disaster".

I genuinely find it crass, insulting and obnoxious in the extreme to see that some people still, still genuinely do feel that way. People like that are a large part of the problem, they perpetuate the myths and they go on insulting the dead and their families, because they're too dense or too bigoted to stop and have a think about the actual facts re what happened.

I just do not understand some people.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Smith on April 15, 2014, 08:22:15 PM: Quote from: saunders_heroes on April 15, 2014, 08:14:27 PM
I don't for one minute agree with Leicester_Villain but it does seem that the Bradford disaster has been somewhat forgotten in this country and never gets the wall to wall coverage of memorial services like Hillsborough. Perhaps it's because they have closure and there's not any controversy surrounding it, but I don't remember every league game kicking off late out of respect to those who died like it did last weekend for the Liverpool disaster.

I think the point you make about closure is exactly the reason. If the families, and the wider Liverpool fan base, hadn't kept it going then it would have been forgotten and the lazy assumptions would be the mainstream view.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2014, 08:23:37 PM: Quote from: Chris Smith on April 15, 2014, 08:22:15 PM
Quote from: saunders_heroes on April 15, 2014, 08:14:27 PM
I don't for one minute agree with Leicester_Villain but it does seem that the Bradford disaster has been somewhat forgotten in this country and never gets the wall to wall coverage of memorial services like Hillsborough. Perhaps it's because they have closure and there's not any controversy surrounding it, but I don't remember every league game kicking off late out of respect to those who died like it did last weekend for the Liverpool disaster.

I think the point you make about closure is exactly the reason. If the families, and the wider Liverpool fan base, hadn't kept it going then it would have been forgotten and the lazy assumptions would be the mainstream view.

There was also a significant response to the Bradford disaster, and to what caused it - rather than a quarter of a century of blaming the innocent as happened with Hillsborough.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: saunders_heroes on April 15, 2014, 08:25:56 PM: Quote from: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2014, 08:19:17 PM
I also think a lot of people think of Hillsborough as a tragedy where lots of people died, full stop.

It would be bad enough if it were just that, but it wasn't, it was a series of lies and cover ups involving the police, the press and - almost certainly - the government of this country, which meant that those families didn't just lose their loved ones 25 years ago, they had their faces rubbed in the shit for almost that whole time after.

They've also had to live with the lingering suspicion that their relatives, or peers of them, were in some way responsible for their deaths. Imagine what that feels like. Imagine what it feels like to have your teenage daughters' dead bodies alcohol level tested to find some way of blaming them. How must that feel? How must it feel to lose your children and be treated so utterly callously by your country, your police?

They also have to put up with utter, utter bollocks of the like posted by Leicester Villain, which is a very good example of this. Some people will just never get the message, they will always think the fans were in some way to blame, they will say things like "I think it's obvious why Bradford was more of a disaster".

I genuinely find it crass, insulting and obnoxious in the extreme to see that some people still, still genuinely do feel that way. People like that are a large part of the problem, they perpetuate the myths and they go on insulting the dead and their families, because they're too dense or too bigoted to stop and have a think about the actual facts re what happened.

I just do not understand some people.

Basically it's because a lot of football fans just don't like scousers and the perceived 'victim mentality' that they allegedly have.
I must admit I find the constant minute silences, memorial services etc a bit tiresome.
That said, I hope they get justice.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Andy Poole on April 15, 2014, 08:30:10 PM: I was at the Villa, West Ham game. I was about 8 rows from the back of the stand and was leaning on the barrier above a stairway. I got crushed there!

The day of Hillsborough found me at Parkhead to watch Rangers play St Johnstone in a Scottish Cup Semi-Final. On grabbing a cab after the game to get back to the station, the Taxi driver said something had happened and a few people had been hurt.
Coming through Carlisle, I think, a load of Blackpool fans got on and were taking the piss because they'd heard that a few Liverpool fans had died. This caused a bit of trouble, no love lost back then apparently.
Finally got to Crewe and had to change trains. I managed to call my then wife and was told possibly upto 10 dead. A train load of Leeds pulled in and this caused a major distraction so I was unable to find out any more until much later.

It could have been us at Hillsborough, had we had a slightly better team, it might have been.

I have a Forest supporting mate, who was in the Kop that day and although he went to the rearranged game, he has never been since.

I remember Blackburn away in '87 I think or maybe '88. It was the league game, we had not long beaten them in the cup at their place. My mate got trapped at the base of a floodlight pylon as Villa piled out after the game. There was a fair bit of trouble IIRC.

I was at Swindon too. Funniest part of that day was one mate, pissing up the back of another mates legs on the terrace because we were too jammed in to get to the toilets! Still get's mentioned today that!

RIP the 96.
As Peter Tosh said. 'Ain't gonna be no peace, 'till man gets equal rights and justice'
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: ACVilla on April 15, 2014, 08:35:45 PM: For just one day respect the 96.

Whatever your views, Ill informed or not, today Is just not the day.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: johnny from donny on April 15, 2014, 08:52:49 PM: Firstly, I don't like Liverpool Football Club, I would probably put them in my top 3 of teams I dislike.
I only mention that because,secondly,(and more importantly) it doesn't matter that I don't like them! What matters is that 25 years ago today,96 people went to a football match and never came home.
96 of our fellow fans (the colour of their scarf is irrelevant) died and 25 years later the families are just about to find out how.
Unfortunately, there are still people who believe the lies told back then. I know one myself, he's in his 70's and was fed the party line by a policeman who lived near him. We can't do anything about them, it's too ingrained by now; best for your blood pressure to shrug your shoulders and walk away.
Hopefully the new inquest will bring the answers the families need.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Jimbo on April 15, 2014, 09:15:42 PM: Quote from: Andy Poole on April 15, 2014, 08:30:10 PM
I was at the Villa, West Ham game. I was about 8 rows from the back of the stand and was leaning on the barrier above a stairway. I got crushed there!

That sounds like exactly where I was standing. I remember watching as our fans spilled over the advertising hoardings and onto the pitch, even over the white line, on the actual playing surface. As I recall, they briefly stopped the game while the ref and some police shooed the fans back behind the line, where they stood to watch the game. It looked like they were standing on the line for a while. There was a very moody atmosphere that night too. If there had been fences there I dread to think what would have happened.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Lee on April 15, 2014, 09:54:27 PM: Quote from: Jimbo on April 15, 2014, 09:15:42 PM
Quote from: Andy Poole on April 15, 2014, 08:30:10 PM
I was at the Villa, West Ham game. I was about 8 rows from the back of the stand and was leaning on the barrier above a stairway. I got crushed there!

That sounds like exactly where I was standing. I remember watching as our fans spilled over the advertising hoardings and onto the pitch, even over the white line, on the actual playing surface. As I recall, they briefly stopped the game while the ref and some police shooed the fans back behind the line, where they stood to watch the game. It looked like they were standing on the line for a while. There was a very moody atmosphere that night too. If there had been fences there I dread to think what would have happened.

Had a few times at away games, especially in the late 80's where you sincerely worried about your own personal safety. That West Ham was one of them.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 15, 2014, 10:59:56 PM: I was 9 days away from being born......

sorry.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: clash city rocker on April 15, 2014, 11:06:42 PM: As the Stephen Lawrence case shows.. some old bill can not be trusted...it must really piss off the hard working honest coppers.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 11:22:10 PM: Quote from: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 06:51:24 PM

There was justice for Heysel. People went to prison for it. No-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough.

Nearly twice as many people died at Hillsborough than died at Bradford, and it is more recent, so it's hardly surprising it attracts more attention.

I don't understand why people bring Heysel into this discussion at all, unless they are implying in some way that Hillsborough was karma for it. They were two totally different incidents with different causes.
By any measure the response to Heysel by LFC, and the FA, was pathetic. It is difficult to support the claim that any sort of justice was served. The Belgian judicial review was perfunctory and neither the UEFA or FA held independent enquiries. If they had, the problems which the Belgian authorities had identified, poor stadia, inadequate policing, inadequate planning, and official indifference to the appalling behaviour of British fans abroad, might have resulted in action which would have headed off the inevitability of Hillsborough. A familiar litany of official incompetence and complacency joins Heysel to Hillsborough
Not a single Liverpool fan served a custodial sentence post conviction, although some were remanded in custody pre-trial. No record of fines being settled exists.

I agree and accept that the pre-eminence of Hillsborough over Bradford is down to the body count.

I disagree that there is not a line which can be drawn which links the death of a Leeds fan at St Andrews , Bradford, Heysel and Hillsborough. “ A slum sport played in slum grounds”
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 11:35:13 PM: Quote from: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 11:22:10 PM
Quote from: Richard E on April 15, 2014, 06:51:24 PM

There was justice for Heysel. People went to prison for it. No-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough.

Nearly twice as many people died at Hillsborough than died at Bradford, and it is more recent, so it's hardly surprising it attracts more attention.

I don't understand why people bring Heysel into this discussion at all, unless they are implying in some way that Hillsborough was karma for it. They were two totally different incidents with different causes.
By any measure the response to Heysel by LFC, and the FA, was pathetic. It is difficult to support the claim that any sort of justice was served. The Belgian judicial review was perfunctory and neither the UEFA or FA held independent enquiries. If they had, the problems which the Belgian authorities had identified, poor stadia, inadequate policing, inadequate planning, and official indifference to the appalling behaviour of British fans abroad, might have resulted in action which would have headed off the inevitability of Hillsborough. A familiar litany of official incompetence and complacency joins Heysel to Hillsborough
Not a single Liverpool fan served a custodial sentence post conviction, although some were remanded in custody pre-trial. No record of fines being settled exists.

I agree and accept that the pre-eminence of Hillsborough over Bradford is down to the body count.

I disagree that there is not a line which can be drawn which links the death of a Leeds fan at St Andrews , Bradford, Heysel and Hillsborough. “ A slum sport played in slum grounds”

14 Liverpool supporters were convicted. Seven went to prison, the others receive suspended sentences. The official Liverpool website calls it the lowest point in the club's history. And this is neither the time, nor the place, to mention Heysel.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 11:57:55 PM: Quote from: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 11:35:13 PM
14 Liverpool supporters were convicted. Seven went to prison, the others receive suspended sentences. The official Liverpool website calls it the lowest point in the club's history. And this is neither the time, nor the place, to mention Heysel.

The links between Heysel and Hillsborough, poor stadia, indifferent authorities, poor policing and a total lack of official accountability are crystal clear. At a time when Justice and the truth are paramount in people's minds it would be wrong NOT to acknowledge that.

On a point of fact no Liverpool fan served a sentence post conviction. The seven to whom you refer were released having been remanded in custody for varying periods of time. Fines were not settled. The Belgian authorities just wanted to forget. It is something we should not do, 96 people paid for it with their lives just a few years later.

Hillsborough did not happen in a vacuum, there was a chilling evitability that it would happen somewhere, sometime. People ignored that at the time, to ignore it now would be wrong.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 16, 2014, 12:08:03 AM: Quote from: garyfouroaks on April 15, 2014, 11:57:55 PM
Quote from: dave.woodhall on April 15, 2014, 11:35:13 PM
14 Liverpool supporters were convicted. Seven went to prison, the others receive suspended sentences. The official Liverpool website calls it the lowest point in the club's history. And this is neither the time, nor the place, to mention Heysel.

The links between Heysel and Hillsborough, poor stadia, indifferent authorities, poor policing and a total lack of official accountability are crystal clear. At a time when Justice and the truth are paramount in people's minds it would be wrong NOT to acknowledge that.

On a point of fact no Liverpool fan served a sentence post conviction. The seven to whom you refer were released having been remanded in custody for varying periods of time. Fines were not settled. The Belgian authorities just wanted to forget. It is something we should not do, 96 people paid for it with their lives just a few years later.

Hillsborough did not happen in a vacuum, there was a chilling evitability that it would happen somewhere, sometime. People ignored that at the time, to ignore it now would be wrong.

They still served time in prison. The Popplewell Inquiry covered Heysel, and as I said earlier this should be a thread to mark the deaths of 96 people at a football match not to bring up events of four years earlier.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: bertlambshank on April 16, 2014, 12:12:02 AM: Watched some of today I thought Martinez came across very well.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: usav on April 16, 2014, 03:56:31 AM: ESPN had a 2 hour special on this tonight at 8pm (prime time). Hard not to get dust in your eyes watching it and apparently, the program is not allowed to be shown in the UK.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 16, 2014, 08:38:55 AM: Quote from: usav on April 16, 2014, 03:56:31 AM
ESPN had a 2 hour special on this tonight at 8pm (prime time). Hard not to get dust in your eyes watching it and apparently, the program is not allowed to be shown in the UK.

Yes, nothing which might be contentious can be shown whilst the inquest is ongoing as it is sub judice. All the BBC reports on the disaster are now showing relatively innocuous footage like the teams coming out or a policeman's helmet lying abandoned on the pitch.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: fredm on April 16, 2014, 08:58:15 AM: I haven't read this thread as no doubt it has regurgitated the arguments previously discussed, but the one issue that I cannot get my head round is that nowhere or nobody seems to be holding the FA in any way responsible for this.

Hillsborough did not have a safety certificate valid at the time - the match should never have been played there. If it had not been held there, then hopefully this tragedy could not have occurred anywhere.

How come the FA are getting away with failing to fulfil the most basic requirement regarding staging a match?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 16, 2014, 08:59:24 AM: Quote from: fredm on April 16, 2014, 08:58:15 AM
I haven't read this thread as no doubt it has regurgitated the arguments previously discussed, but the one issue that I cannot get my head round is that nowhere or nobody seems to be holding the FA in any way responsible for this.

Hillsborough did not have a safety certificate valid at the time - the match should never have been played there. If it had not been held there, then hopefully this tragedy could not have occurred anywhere.

How come the FA are getting away with failing to fulfil the most basic requirement regarding staging a match?

Couldn't agree more. Both the FA and Sheffield Wednesday FC seem to get a remarkably easy ride over this whole affair.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Steve R on April 16, 2014, 09:00:40 AM: Are we really comparing tragedies here? Is there a league table somewhere that could be used as a point of reference? Small Heath vs Leeds would be the greatest tragedy if you were to ask the relatives of the poor sod that died.

After Heysel not every culpable party was properly brought to book for the role they played; Bradford does tend to be a bit of a forgotten tragedy. Does that really make the quest for justice for the Hillsborough victims any less worthy?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: richard moore on April 16, 2014, 09:18:21 AM: Quote from: bertlambshank on April 16, 2014, 12:12:02 AM
Watched some of today I thought Martinez came across very well.

Yes, I agree. My admiration for him, which was pretty high anyway, continues to grow. He is obviously a very good manager and a gentleman to boot
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Drummond on April 16, 2014, 09:58:40 AM: Regardless of blame, 96 people went to support their team in an FA Cup Semi Final and never came home.

Lessons were learnt, stadia were made safer and thankfully we've not seen the like of it again.

If it were my son, daughter, father, mother, brother, aunt, uncle or friend that hadn't come back, I'd want to know why and I'd want to know that it wouldn't happen to someone else. IF, someone was culpable, then they should be held to account, however, we have to remember they were different times and we had different standards of acceptable Health and Safety (as one example).

What shouldn't be acceptable, is that someone thought 'fuck 'em, they're only football scum' which, unfortunately, appears to have been the prevalent mood of the time. In addition, the changing of stories, the adulterated records of police officers etc. is also completely unacceptable and people should be held to account.

I just hope that no other family has to go through what these families have.

Finally, I'd just like to say that Heysel and Bradford were two completely different events and sets of circumstances that should never be compared to Hillsborough.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Havencheese on April 16, 2014, 01:59:03 PM: Had a look at some of the fence images. Utterly terrifying doesn't even describe it, men of all shapes and sizes, women, children with limbs contorted under struggle.

More than the judicial side to this, I was curious to know what some of the survivors had to say.

One survivor mentioned how just weeks after the disaster after lodging himself as a witness, later had police intimidate him during a home visit forcing him to sign papers he wasn't even allowed to read via their stand over tactics. Was later dismissed in their report as left leaning student, potentially not even at the game, a rebel rouser and police hater therefore dismissing him as a witness. Another who received the same treatment as a 17 y.o ironically joined the police force later, also recounted on the day using another man's body in order to climb to safety and the survivor guilt he suffered and a failed suicide attempt. What's also often overlooked is that there were numerous suicides, those lost to the bottle, mental illness and trauma suffered, marriage breakdowns let alone many diehard football fans who could never bring themselves to do something as simple as attend a match ever again.

Unfortunately the number in a way went far beyond 96.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Chris Jameson on April 16, 2014, 02:21:09 PM: My partner's cousin was at Hillsborough, he's a Liverpool supporter and wasn't in the Leppings Lane end but he hasn't been to a match since because of what he witnessed that day.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Legion on April 16, 2014, 03:51:28 PM: Rather distressing image (fence):

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1920583_10203502563344049_7094406662098250804_n.jpg)
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: itbrvilla on April 16, 2014, 03:53:46 PM: Quote from: Legion on April 16, 2014, 03:51:28 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1920583_10203502563344049_7094406662098250804_n.jpg)
Wow!
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 16, 2014, 03:56:22 PM: That photograph is pretty upsetting.

Put it in spoiler tags maybe?
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 16, 2014, 04:02:15 PM: The saddest story I've heard was the man whose brother died. I think he may have given him his ticket, but he always blamed himself. He slept at his brother's grave and lost his job. After a long time out of work he finally got another one, only to be killed in an accident on his first day.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Richard E on April 16, 2014, 04:05:02 PM: Quote from: dave.woodhall on April 16, 2014, 04:02:15 PM
The saddest story I've heard was the man whose brother died. I think he may have given him his ticket, but he always blamed himself. He slept at his brother's grave and lost his job. After a long time out of work he finally got another one, only to be killed in an accident on his first day.

I'm pretty sure as well that there has been at least one suicide of someone in a similar situation.

Edit - there was - a guy who killed himself about 3 years ago because he never got over the guilt of selling his friend (who died) his ticket.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 16, 2014, 04:10:12 PM: Watch the Peter Jones clip on You Tube and you can see why he's sometimes called the 97th victim.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 16, 2014, 04:15:32 PM: Quote from: dave.woodhall on April 16, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
Watch the Peter Jones clip on You Tube and you can see why he's sometimes called the 97th victim.

That's one of the most emotional pieces of commentary I've ever heard. Inspirationally good broadcasting.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: not3bad on April 16, 2014, 04:27:55 PM: Quote from: itbrvilla on April 16, 2014, 03:53:46 PM
Quote from: Legion on April 16, 2014, 03:51:28 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1920583_10203502563344049_7094406662098250804_n.jpg)
Wow!

They showed that image on the front page of the Daily Mirror at the time. I remember wondering for a long time if those people had got out.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 16, 2014, 04:37:00 PM: Quote from: not3bad on April 16, 2014, 04:27:55 PM
They showed that image on the front page of the Daily Mirror at the time. I remember wondering for a long time if those people had got out.

I was a student in Newcastle when Hillsborough happened.

I remember the morning after, or the Monday, we were sat in the student's union, and every single person in there was reading the papers, in which lots of photos like that featured, and I vividly remember hardly anyone spoke, there were people crying, there was just silence as people took in what happened. Nobody said a word.

I think maybe some younger people who aren't old enough to remember it, and who have grown up knowing it happened, might not realise just what an event it was.

It was something which managed to be at the same time, both beyond belief but, for people who regularly went to games at the time, entirely believable in a "could have been us" way.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: avfc_1874 on April 16, 2014, 05:53:17 PM: Kudos to Russell Brand as well.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlRQJ1sCQAAVBAr.png)
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: taylorsworkrate on April 16, 2014, 06:55:05 PM: Quote from: pauliewalnuts on April 16, 2014, 04:37:00 PM
Quote from: not3bad on April 16, 2014, 04:27:55 PM
They showed that image on the front page of the Daily Mirror at the time. I remember wondering for a long time if those people had got out.

I was a student in Newcastle when Hillsborough happened.

I remember the morning after, or the Monday, we were sat in the student's union, and every single person in there was reading the papers, in which lots of photos like that featured, and I vividly remember hardly anyone spoke, there were people crying, there was just silence as people took in what happened. Nobody said a word.

I think maybe some younger people who aren't old enough to remember it, and who have grown up knowing it happened, might not realise just what an event it was.

It was something which managed to be at the same time, both beyond belief but, for people who regularly went to games at the time, entirely believable in a "could have been us" way.

I was only 3 at the time, but having had it drummed into me by my Dad and Uncle who are huge football fans and were both affected quite badly by Hillsborough, it is an event that I've done a lot of research into and it makes me incredibly angry.

I think Hillsborough does affect the younger generation more than you think. I work with a couple of guys who are in their early twenties, and I walked in today to find them having a rather detailed and passionate conversation about the subject.

There also seemed to be a lot of people at the memorial yesterday who probably weren't born in 89. I think that's one of the most inspirational things that the families have done. Their passion has inspired a lot of young people, people who now won't necessarily just believe what authority tells them, and will stand up for what is just.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 16, 2014, 08:06:56 PM: I've seen that Peter Jones clip a few times. Every single time it ends "And the sun shines now" I tear up, big Jess that I am. I just watched it, and yep, teared up again.
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: clash city rocker on April 16, 2014, 08:35:38 PM: It all goes to show how much football fans were valued then ...basically we weren't. To the police and the Thatcher government we were the equivalent of lepers..However given their behaviour in years gone by and even in today's age..football fans put the behaviour of some police and MP's to shame..
Title: Re: 25 years today
Post by: Colin B on April 17, 2014, 12:20:54 AM: This documentary is interesting