Kendrick Says It's Time To Ask Questions

[not3bad]

Excellent post, Cheltenhamlion.  Sums things up very well indeed.

[Clampy]

Back then he thought we could quickly buy our way into the Champions League. Then came the oil money at Man City and that withered on the vine pretty quickly. Whilst I will happily point out that he has approached a number of aspects of running the club in an incredibly naïve manner, what more can you realistically ask of him? The man has sunk in hundreds of millions of pounds.  We might have made a hash of how it was spent but you can’t lay too much of the blame for that at his door.

Finally, what can you do to remove a man who owns the club outright? Demand he sell? Brilliant, but who is he flogging it to? What are their intentions? And, most importantly, where are they? I am not apathetic, I am actually fed up with reading people demanding that he sell up to someone who will invest. He has invested. Lot’s. I am sure that if the next oligarch or sheikh off the rank wanted to buy us he would cheerfully sell up. But you can’t just pluck someone with a few billion off the shelf and tell them to start frittering all that money away on us. So we have Randy for the foreseeable and there is still a “better the devil you know” element at play for a bloke who seems pretty decent, if misguided on the playing side.

I really liked Chelt's post but I agree with these comments the more than anything.

We can point the finger at Randy for some of his managerial appointments and that's fair enough. He can't be accused of not investing though, that's ridiculous. Like Chelt's said, he's put in millions. Maybe the quality of some of the players that have come in over the past couple of season's are not what they should be and that's fair enough argument as well, but could we realistically expect him to carry spending £7-8m on every payer that came in? The spending and more importantly the wage bill needed to come down and I think everyone agrees with that. It's not been nice but it needed to be done.

[levico]

Really good posts on this thread but three points I'd raise.

1: I have to disagree and say that apathy is a big factor with Villa fans at the moment. As a cliff face is worn away by the tide year after year, so we are worn down by wave upon wave of mediocrity. You can't be angry and militant all the time and eventually you just find something else to do with your precious time. I hate moaning, and it seems it's all I feel obliged to do regarding Villa at the moment, therefore I avoid posting as much as I used to because I don't want to subject others to the kind of posts I try to avoid, however justified. I just get very little joy out of the club I love with all my heart lately.

2: The board are absolutely responsible for our malaise. Yes, in many ways we do things right and I don't question Randy's integrity or intentions for a second. I do however question his judgement. We have not had a proper football based apparatus since he arrived. Thus money has been squandered, we've stumbled from one disastrous managerial regime to another with little thought on consistency and there are people way out of their depth in positions they should not be in. Good businessmen, but utterly clueless regarding the game. That is entirely Randy's fault. There are lots of good things to say about him but the fundamental issues are a sorry tale. We're only going backwards. It is just not good enough and Villa fans will put up with more than fans of clubs half our size would. I think they know that, the board, that's why they feel more comfortable than they should.

3: We don't owe Randy a penny. I often hear how we owe Randy a 9 figure sum. How is this so? Any debts accrued against the club are his own doing and a symptom of the years of mismanagement, lack of proper planning, lack of consistently and execution. Financially, he is Aston Villa. If he was to sell and took a loss, it's his doing and his subordinate's. Likewise, it's his prerogative to recoup that money if he wishes. But as he does so, he risks the stability and top flight status of the biggest club in 100 miles in any direction.

Never forget what a powerhouse this club was and should be, then look at the state we're in now. Not strengthening when it is essential, loaning a Wigan sub when we need a top playmaker (at the very least), recruiting players with very little calibre because they're cheap. It's like some nightmare where we're confirming to the mindless narrative clueless pundits and media hacks have had of us for ages.

Randy is a good man with a good heart and he wants what is best for Villa. He just has no idea how to go about that or employ the people to achieve it. For that reason and that reason alone I hope he sells up and takes any financial hit on the chin. He said he'd move on if he couldn't do the job. Well after four years of struggle, what other conclusion can be drawn? By all means, be a part of the club, have a role of some sort.
As far as I'm concerned he tried and will always be welcome. But it's time to hand over that "custodianship".

Totally agree.

[Mister E]

Don't know whether they are good or not but 'We are relaunching to be your voice!' Sounds like something from some odd sort of religious cult.

From what I have seen it is just some Villa fans. They asked me to be in it because I'd done the safe standing thing so I said I'd give it a go. We don't even all share the same view on the way Villa is at present, just the same as other Villa fans,  debating where the blame lies, & whether to stick or twist. However, we are agreed that the platform of The Trust is there to represent what concerns the wider fan base, not what we think.

If you want to do more about the current state of Villa than boo the team off & rant on here & twitter - The Trust may not be perfect, but it's probably the best you've got, and it is there for you to shape.

Tbh - I could go through this thread (more than many others) and pick out some key points to take forward already. It's a start.

It's also really weird as I am still just a H&V poster, & a Villa fan - I'm definitely not the voice of The Trust! I do just feel the need to respond when the name is called!

I too am not the voice of the Trust ...
...You may recall, when everything was kicking off in the early 2000's and several groups became established overnight (usually with a 'personality-cult' attached to them), the Trust was the 'voice of reason'; set up to provide a long-term 'place' for fans to get together and register their dissatisfaction at the way the club was being run (share-purchasing was part of the focus and it did buy a number; also constructive alternatives to the running of the club were proposed as well as an objective to have a fan-representative on the board).

It's still around, was a focal point for the construction of the McGregor statue and stilll has a voice - go here for more: http://www.villatrust.org.uk/

[pauliewalnuts]

I care absolutely about this club and the instant wailing and gnashing of teeth does help in getting it off your chest but poor decisions often result from anger and it's much better to take a
Considered and thoughtful approach as to what next.

I agree with that, but I don't think what we are seeing now in terms of anger is a result of insufficient consideration or gut reactions - this is our fourth season of poking around trying to keep out of the relegation places, and the last three seasons have been almost entirely about dreadful, dreadful football.

The only impressive thing from the last three years is the number of records we have broken - the sort of records you don't want to break.

The one thing that is needed at our football club though is visible signs of leadership. I know football is a different kind of business and I'm certainly not advocating a Whelan type gobshite but if we could have a Director of Football to provide some added nous to the boardroom and provide that leadership for us fans it would help enormously. It's as if there is a vacuum at the top and whilst we appreciate the times we go about our business quietly and without fuss there are times this club needs to be galvanized by a voice we can rally around and that for me is what's missing.

I don't know if it is the one thing, it is one of the things which would help.

Regarding Whelan, and going off on a bit of a tangent, we seem to have got a reputation as a team whose ambitions - despite what we might say they are - are actually all about avoiding relegation, and in doing so, to focus on low wage players.

If you are a neutral looking at us - you'd think, hmmm, will spend 6 or 7m very occasionally, runs a strict wage policy, buys a lot of players from the lower leagues or selling leagues, in how many ways is that actually any different from what Wigan Athletic did?

Remember, neutrals aren't going to give a toss about our nice ground or illustrious history like we would. I really do think that's the kind of image we are creating of ourselves. More worryingly, I think we're also heading to the same sort of reality as Wigan did.

We probably - probably - won't get relegated this season, but if it goes on like the last three years for much longer, and if the "shift the wage earners, get the cheap players in" delusion carries on as it has done (and why wouldn't it? they're not going to suddenly start pumping up the wage bill) then it just feels absolutely inevitable that at some point we'll go down.

Ultimately, to do well in the PL, you need good players. There's no avoiding that. That doesn't mean you need a team full of 15m players, but with a team full of lower league or cheap foreign players you are going to require a miracle, or an absolute genius of a manager to achieve much.

What scares me to death is that Faulkner and Lerner have decided to rein in the finances, they've decided on this path which fits in with the finances, that you really can do something with 5-10k a week players and youth team products, and believe that if they want it enough, if they say they believe in it enough - it will just happen.

It's like they think it is a scientific process. You take your best youth players, you buy in cheap performers from League One or Two, and you just wait a few seasons, and over the course of that time, they'll grow and improve. Like growing a plant or something, you water it and wait, and it grows.

It is staggeringly naive, and more than a little bit arrogant. Don't they think that if it were this easy, everyone would be doing it? Do they think the likes of Mike Ashley wouldn't pile into a policy that involved not spending money?

You might ask why lambert would buy into that.

Well, for Lambert, to get us mid table once or twice, with a cheap squad would be an achievement, as it would have been for Martinez. That's all he needs to do. He doesn't need to actually deliver success - the expectations have been lowered so hugely, what used to be considered barely acceptable for us has now become the mark of good management.

I'll bet now that, if at any point Lambert gets us to 9th or 10th, his stock will be high, and that's the point at which he'd bail. He's no mug.

[curiousorange]

It's the board's fault for the club's malaise, but it's Paul Lambert's fault for bringing it onto the pitch. Nobody has convinced me that he's not a terrible tactician and man-manager. I am convinced, however, that these players can play better under a man who's a proper manager.

[saunders_heroes]

Back then he thought we could quickly buy our way into the Champions League. Then came the oil money at Man City and that withered on the vine pretty quickly. Whilst I will happily point out that he has approached a number of aspects of running the club in an incredibly naïve manner, what more can you realistically ask of him? The man has sunk in hundreds of millions of pounds.  We might have made a hash of how it was spent but you can’t lay too much of the blame for that at his door.

Finally, what can you do to remove a man who owns the club outright? Demand he sell? Brilliant, but who is he flogging it to? What are their intentions? And, most importantly, where are they? I am not apathetic, I am actually fed up with reading people demanding that he sell up to someone who will invest. He has invested. Lot’s. I am sure that if the next oligarch or sheikh off the rank wanted to buy us he would cheerfully sell up. But you can’t just pluck someone with a few billion off the shelf and tell them to start frittering all that money away on us. So we have Randy for the foreseeable and there is still a “better the devil you know” element at play for a bloke who seems pretty decent, if misguided on the playing side.

I really liked Chelt's post but I agree with these comments the more than anything.

We can point the finger at Randy for some of his managerial appointments and that's fair enough. He can't be accused of not investing though, that's ridiculous. Like Chelt's said, he's put in millions. Maybe the quality of some of the players that have come in over the past couple of season's are not what they should be and that's fair enough argument as well, but could we realistically expect him to carry spending £7-8m on every payer that came in? The spending and more importantly the wage bill needed to come down and I think everyone agrees with that. It's not been nice but it needed to be done.

I'd rather he hadn't got rid of most if not all of our best players and replaced them with inferior lower league players. That's a recipie for disaster, but that's what Lerner has actually done. Yes he's still spent money over the last 3 or so years but we've bought players who aren't PL quality, but what PL quality player will work for Villa with the wage structure we have under Lerner? He deserves criticism for that, because that's why we're in the brown stuff.

[Clampy]

Back then he thought we could quickly buy our way into the Champions League. Then came the oil money at Man City and that withered on the vine pretty quickly. Whilst I will happily point out that he has approached a number of aspects of running the club in an incredibly naïve manner, what more can you realistically ask of him? The man has sunk in hundreds of millions of pounds.  We might have made a hash of how it was spent but you can’t lay too much of the blame for that at his door.

Finally, what can you do to remove a man who owns the club outright? Demand he sell? Brilliant, but who is he flogging it to? What are their intentions? And, most importantly, where are they? I am not apathetic, I am actually fed up with reading people demanding that he sell up to someone who will invest. He has invested. Lot’s. I am sure that if the next oligarch or sheikh off the rank wanted to buy us he would cheerfully sell up. But you can’t just pluck someone with a few billion off the shelf and tell them to start frittering all that money away on us. So we have Randy for the foreseeable and there is still a “better the devil you know” element at play for a bloke who seems pretty decent, if misguided on the playing side.

I really liked Chelt's post but I agree with these comments the more than anything.

We can point the finger at Randy for some of his managerial appointments and that's fair enough. He can't be accused of not investing though, that's ridiculous. Like Chelt's said, he's put in millions. Maybe the quality of some of the players that have come in over the past couple of season's are not what they should be and that's fair enough argument as well, but could we realistically expect him to carry spending £7-8m on every payer that came in? The spending and more importantly the wage bill needed to come down and I think everyone agrees with that. It's not been nice but it needed to be done.

I'd rather he hadn't got rid of most if not all of our best players and replaced them with inferior lower league players. That's a recipie for disaster, but that's what Lerner has actually done. Yes he's still spent money over the last 3 or so years but we've bought players who aren't PL quality, but what PL quality player will work for Villa with the wage structure we have under Lerner? He deserves criticism for that, because that's why we're in the brown stuff.

In fairness, we don't know what the wage structure is. Until we do, we're just speculating that we're poor payers and that may not be the case.

[saunders_heroes]

Back then he thought we could quickly buy our way into the Champions League. Then came the oil money at Man City and that withered on the vine pretty quickly. Whilst I will happily point out that he has approached a number of aspects of running the club in an incredibly naïve manner, what more can you realistically ask of him? The man has sunk in hundreds of millions of pounds.  We might have made a hash of how it was spent but you can’t lay too much of the blame for that at his door.

Finally, what can you do to remove a man who owns the club outright? Demand he sell? Brilliant, but who is he flogging it to? What are their intentions? And, most importantly, where are they? I am not apathetic, I am actually fed up with reading people demanding that he sell up to someone who will invest. He has invested. Lot’s. I am sure that if the next oligarch or sheikh off the rank wanted to buy us he would cheerfully sell up. But you can’t just pluck someone with a few billion off the shelf and tell them to start frittering all that money away on us. So we have Randy for the foreseeable and there is still a “better the devil you know” element at play for a bloke who seems pretty decent, if misguided on the playing side.

I really liked Chelt's post but I agree with these comments the more than anything.

We can point the finger at Randy for some of his managerial appointments and that's fair enough. He can't be accused of not investing though, that's ridiculous. Like Chelt's said, he's put in millions. Maybe the quality of some of the players that have come in over the past couple of season's are not what they should be and that's fair enough argument as well, but could we realistically expect him to carry spending £7-8m on every payer that came in? The spending and more importantly the wage bill needed to come down and I think everyone agrees with that. It's not been nice but it needed to be done.

I'd rather he hadn't got rid of most if not all of our best players and replaced them with inferior lower league players. That's a recipie for disaster, but that's what Lerner has actually done. Yes he's still spent money over the last 3 or so years but we've bought players who aren't PL quality, but what PL quality player will work for Villa with the wage structure we have under Lerner? He deserves criticism for that, because that's why we're in the brown stuff.

In fairness, we don't know what the wage structure is. Until we do, we're just speculating that we're poor payers and that may not be the case.

Well I'm guessing the wage structure is a pretty tight one considering the class of players we've bought over the last few years. Add that to the fact we've practically had a witch hunt of our highly paid players at the club all points to Villa only wanting to pay low wages to the playing staff. Also just last week Lambert was on record saying that the only reason Hutton isn't playing for Villa at the moment was because of his high wages. It shouldn't take a genius to work out our wage structure when you look at the facts.
It's the sole reason why the team has been so poor over the last few seasons. You pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

[Billy Walker]

Really good posts on this thread but three points I'd raise.

1: I have to disagree and say that apathy is a big factor with Villa fans at the moment. As a cliff face is worn away by the tide year after year, so we are worn down by wave upon wave of mediocrity. You can't be angry and militant all the time and eventually you just find something else to do with your precious time. I hate moaning, and it seems it's all I feel obliged to do regarding Villa at the moment, therefore I avoid posting as much as I used to because I don't want to subject others to the kind of posts I try to avoid, however justified. I just get very little joy out of the club I love with all my heart lately.

2: The board are absolutely responsible for our malaise. Yes, in many ways we do things right and I don't question Randy's integrity or intentions for a second. I do however question his judgement. We have not had a proper football based apparatus since he arrived. Thus money has been squandered, we've stumbled from one disastrous managerial regime to another with little thought on consistency and there are people way out of their depth in positions they should not be in. Good businessmen, but utterly clueless regarding the game. That is entirely Randy's fault. There are lots of good things to say about him but the fundamental issues are a sorry tale. We're only going backwards. It is just not good enough and Villa fans will put up with more than fans of clubs half our size would. I think they know that, the board, that's why they feel more comfortable than they should.

3: We don't owe Randy a penny. I often hear how we owe Randy a 9 figure sum. How is this so? Any debts accrued against the club are his own doing and a symptom of the years of mismanagement, lack of proper planning, lack of consistently and execution. Financially, he is Aston Villa. If he was to sell and took a loss, it's his doing and his subordinate's. Likewise, it's his prerogative to recoup that money if he wishes. But as he does so, he risks the stability and top flight status of the biggest club in 100 miles in any direction.

Never forget what a powerhouse this club was and should be, then look at the state we're in now. Not strengthening when it is essential, loaning a Wigan sub when we need a top playmaker (at the very least), recruiting players with very little calibre because they're cheap. It's like some nightmare where we're confirming to the mindless narrative clueless pundits and media hacks have had of us for ages.

Randy is a good man with a good heart and he wants what is best for Villa. He just has no idea how to go about that or employ the people to achieve it. For that reason and that reason alone I hope he sells up and takes any financial hit on the chin. He said he'd move on if he couldn't do the job. Well after four years of struggle, what other conclusion can be drawn? By all means, be a part of the club, have a role of some sort.
As far as I'm concerned he tried and will always be welcome. But it's time to hand over that "custodianship".

Very well said and I agree entirely. 

[Clampy]

It's obvious that the wage bill has been worked on and like I said, it probably needed to be. If the days of paying the likes of Shay Given a small fortune are gone for the time being, then so be it. I doubt the players are earning peanuts though. It might be what you want to think, but it's not what I think.

[nick harper]

On the subject of apathy, I think this time last year we were in the bottom 3 and there was an element of a backs to the wall approach on the pitch which transmitted off the pitch and vice versa. It very much helped to get us out of the hole we were in.

This year we have been mid table for some time and quite often a club sleepwalks into danger without realising. Our sluggish performances and the lack of any real reaction from the fans over the last few weeks is reflective of this. Lambert's complacency has come across in his comments and he is the only mouthpiece from the club.

My impression is it is easier to build momentum if you can get a run going from a low position than turning things round if you go on a slow slide. West Ham have demonstrated this recently.

It does feel like Norwich could be the equivalent of the Bolton experience at VP if it goes badly on Sunday.

[saunders_heroes]

It's obvious that the wage bill has been worked on and like I said, it probably needed to be. If the days of paying the likes of Shay Given a small fortune are gone for the time being, then so be it. I doubt the players are earning peanuts though. It might be what you want to think, but it's not what I think.

Then why have we signed such poor players then? Why not aim for proper PL players?
It's because they're cheap - that's why they're at Villa.

[cheltenhamlion]

By no stretch of the imagination am I exonerating any of the people mentioned for the mess we find ourselves in. And I am sure there are some folks who are so worn down by events of recent years that they can't be bothered to fight it or worry about it any more.

I guess the reason I wanted to offer an alternative view to that given in the Evening Mail piece was that it is a long way from being the case for many of us. There are more ways to view things than "It is all fine and Dandy" or "Get out the protest placards".

A good example of apathy to me can be seen in Bordesley Green. No matter how ridiculous it gets you don't hear a whimper from them. They take it all with a shrug of the shoulders.

I don't presume to speak for anyone else. I just wanted to get my views over as to why I don't see that us not starting some form of witch hunt should be seen as a slight on the fans. I wanted to give some reasons why we aren't doing what we have done in the past.

The biggest disappointment in the last couple of years for me is how things have gone this season. After the abomination that was McLeish's reign, Randy put out a statement that gave me hope for the future. That we would see some root and branch changes that would be uncomfortable initially but would ultimately see us going in the direction we all want on the back of it.

That is why we haven't been kicking up a storm. That is why we have accepted a ration of shit last season. it was on the basis that was some silver lining in what were very dark clouds in the Christmas and New Year period. That's why most of us didn't demand his head after the Chelsea game.

And by the end of last season we felt like we had turned a corner. We were playing some decent stuff. It was the first time since MON's second season where I had the feeling that we were all pulling in the same direction again. That there was a togetherness at the club. And I think that is why this season has been such a kick in the academicals. Because we don't seem to have graduated beyond the guff we were prepared to accept for the greater good last year.

Like I said, to me this Summer is the acid test. The actions of the board and manager will tell us an awful lot as to whether we have taken our medication and are now looking to move on to where should be. If the board are happy to have the same ambitions as the Stoke's and Fulham's of the world. Of whether Lambert, with a decent budget and not having to rebuild a squad from scratch, can be the manager we hoped we were gettiing from Norwich. 

I know it must seem as if some of us are forever advocating the giving of time, or citing stability, but to me it is about saying that they are starting to run out of goodwill. We are doing our bit. We are still turning up in droves despite the guff we are having to endure on the pitch.

As long as we get over the safety line this year, and I think we will, then that must be the line in the sand. No more of this constant battling at the wrong end of the table. No more being run on a shoestring. No more acting like a team just happy to be in the league. The finanical house is in order. Now we need to start behaving like a club of our manitude should.

Because if it isn't that line in the sand, and we are sat here in the early part of next season complaining about the same things, you can count me in for letting board and manager know that we won't stand for this any more.

[NeilH]

I hate moaning, and it seems it's all I feel obliged to do regarding Villa at the moment, therefore I avoid posting as much as I used to because I don't want to subject others to the kind of posts I try to avoid, however justified. I just get very little joy out of the club I love with all my heart lately.

This is how, in a nutshell, I feel. I simply don't have anything positive to say right now and there are more than enough people here who can moan for me. As a regular poster, I find myself spending most of my time in Off Topic now as the tedium of us a a footballing side has reduced my interest to that of a spectator.
The joy I get from my club now is primarily reserved for times gone by. After 4 years of relentless drudgery, I barely recognise my team.

Given the current state of affairs it seems somewhat churlish to recall the protests we instigated, when the team were in a far better state than we are now.