The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[rob_bridge]

No new contract. No way. No sacking - yet.

If we get less points than last season and/or get relegated then he needs to be turfed out. There would be NO excuses. This is a comparatively (to the last 10 years) average-good league interspersed with some exceptional individuals at 'big' clubs. There is so much dross and we are amongst it / contribute to it.

That said the thought of No Lerner and Faulkwit recruiting another manager anytime in the next 5 years would fill me with so much dread whatever the circumstance be it:

a) Relegation. God only knows what would happen in terms of recruitment. Old has been / bright new thing. Take your pick.
b) Lambert's reign 'fizzles out' with another relegation near miss or two this season and next 2015. Pick up the next bright thing at the time.
c) Miraclously we throw 6X6's and end up in Top 6 and he goes to Dortmund or whomever. Only way we would be in a position of strength, still wouldn't trust those pair to recruit.

They'd probably hire Alan Ball if he was still alive. That said they may not know he is dead.

[Isa]

Your argument in the first paragraph is undermined by Lambert's Norwich coming up and finishing 12th. They proved they were more than capable. The categorisation of him with Geroge Burley is therefore a false one.

You're clearly not familiar with 'second season syndrome' then. There are many examples of promoted teams punching above their weight during their first season after promotion and many theories as to why this happens. Lambert finishing 12th with Norwich doesn't 'prove' anything. Him keeping them up again the season after would've been the best achievement of his career to put it in context.

You claim that Hughton has 'undone' all his good work but don't seem to realise that keeping them up last season was a success in itself when you consider he inherited a squad full of Championship quality players. Obviously I'm not blaming Lambert for that as he did the best with the budget he had but the idea that he would easily kept them up again is ludicrous. In fact, Hughton (who supposedly has undone all of Lambert's work) finished higher in the table last season ahead of Lambert who had a much better Villa squad at his disposal. If Lambert only just kept us up, then it is fair to assume that there was a good chance of him taking Norwich down had he stayed there.

[Concrete John]

That's comparing apples and oranges.  Totally different jobs with different challenges in each.  One of the main differences being the amount of recruitment Villa needed during summer 2012 compared to a relatively settled Norwich squad.

Claiming Norwich would have gone down last season under Lambert is about as relavent and provable as me saying he would have taken them into Europe.

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Your argument in the first paragraph is undermined by Lambert's Norwich coming up and finishing 12th. They proved they were more than capable. The categorisation of him with Geroge Burley is therefore a false one.

You're clearly not familiar with 'second season syndrome' then. There are many examples of promoted teams punching above their weight during their first season after promotion and many theories as to why this happens. Lambert finishing 12th with Norwich doesn't 'prove' anything. Him keeping them up again the season after would've been the best achievement of his career to put it in context.

You claim that Hughton has 'undone' all his good work but don't seem to realise that keeping them up last season was a success in itself when you consider he inherited a squad full of Championship quality players. Obviously I'm not blaming Lambert for that as he did the best with the budget he had but the idea that he would easily kept them up again is ludicrous. In fact, Hughton (who supposedly has undone all of Lambert's work) finished higher in the table last season ahead of Lambert who had a much better Villa squad at his disposal. If Lambert only just kept us up, then it is fair to assume that there was a good chance of him taking Norwich down had he stayed there.

I am fully aware of that particularly laboured cliché.

I cannot agree with what you're saying and think you have overreached with your argument by saying it was a bigger achievement to stay in the Prmier League than getting up in the first instance. Clubs in their second season start off with the advantage of increased revenue gained by being in the league the previous year.  Your speculation about what Lambert would have done is exactly that. How you're able to draw a conclusion one way or the other and then label it ludicrous is frankly bizarre.

Lots of clubs get up and stay up; Swansea, Norwich, Newcastle, West Brom, Southampton for example. Some, like Stoke, just won't flush.

The point about Norwich isn't really relevant, but Hughton's McLeish style of football nihilism will eventually take them down and they will be very close this season, as they were last. You cannot rely on surrenders from West Brom and Man City every season to keep you up.

[Isa]

One of the main differences being the amount of recruitment Villa needed during summer 2012 compared to a relatively settled Norwich squad.

Yet Norwich made twelve signings last season compared to our nine so that's not the case at all.

I am fully aware of that particularly laboured cliché.

I cannot agree with what you're saying and think you have overreached with your argument by saying it was a bigger achievement to stay in the Prmier League than getting up in the first instance. Clubs in their second season start off with the advantage of increased revenue gained by being in the league the previous year.  Your speculation about what Lambert would have done is exactly that. How you're able to draw a conclusion one way or the other and then label it ludicrous is frankly bizarre.

Lots of clubs get up and stay up; Swansea, Norwich, Newcastle, West Brom, Southampton for example. Some, like Stoke, just won't flush.

The point about Norwich isn't really relevant, but Hughton's McLeish style of football nihilism will eventually take them down and they will be very close this season, as they were last. You cannot rely on surrenders from West Brom and Man City every season to keep you up.

Yes, I didn't say that 'second season syndrome' was an absolute rule. I brought it up because you seem to think that his one season with Norwich 'proves' he is capable at this level and don't seem to understand why comparisions to Coyle, Burley etc. are valid.

Also regarding my point that keeping Norwich up for another season would've been Lambert's greatest achievement as a manager, again I wasn't generalising for all clubs as you are implying. I am basing it specifically on the resources he had at Norwich. As I say, that Norwich were mainly full of Championship-standard players and it is no surprise that a large amount of that squad have returned to the lower leagues. Thus I believe that keeping them up for another season when they are no longer a unknown quantity in the league would've been more impressive than keeping them up initially. I wouldn't say the same though for say Allardyce keeping West Ham up this season for example.

Finally, 'assume' was probably not the correct word to use. I just meant that there is good reason to suspect he wouldn't have kept Norwich up had he stayed based on what I already mentioned. It is all hypothetical though.

[LeeB]

The George Burley analogy is bullshit as he hadn't taken Ipswich up two divisions in consecutive seasons, an achievement that brings it's own problems in terms of squad development.

[supertom]

The George Burley analogy is bullshit as he hadn't taken Ipswich up two divisions in consecutive seasons, an achievement that brings it's own problems in terms of squad development.

It's a worthwhile comparison though. Burley had a very good first season in the top flight but then got worked out pretty quickly.
This to me seems to be a problem right now with Lambert. He's been put up against a lot of experienced Prem managers that many on here wouldn't rate at all, like Pulis, Hughes and Allardyce for example. He's been tactically outwitted by all of them (quite easily unfortunately). For me, much as I'm no fan of the aforementioned, if you manage in the top flight for any number of years, you've done something right.

If I had to call it I'd put Lambert in the Jewell/Burley/Coyle category. He'll have his time in this division but in a year or two he'll be dropping down the leagues again. Tactically he falls too far short. I could be wrong of course but time will tell. I think in terms of tactical nous he's trailing in the wake of McLeish to be honest. McLeish you kind of knew what you were getting and he's a guy who's unashamedly negative in style, but at least until Jan under him we were pretty well organised. When we lost Dunne, Stan and Bent all in the space of a month, it had a terrible effect, as his main game plan had no effect without a goalscorer to nick results.
As yet I'm not sure Lambert has found an efficient gameplan. We were decent on the counter from Feb- May last year and he allowed us to express ourselves, but it wasn't subtle by any means. We hit teams at full pace, 100mph. That has been worked out now and he's yet to find another way of playing. I don't deny Lambert's motivational skills, but tactically I'm not sure he's top flight material.
That could well be aided however, with a decent coach by his side. Redknapp for example is a manager, even by his own admission, isn't much of a tactician at all. He's had many years at the top, and when it's really worked for him, he's had a good set up around him.

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I fully comprehend your argument, my disagreement with it is that it is based on speculation of what Lambert might or might not have done at Norwich in his second season, founded on a cliché.

[Clampy]

If I had to compare Lambert with anybody, it would be Nigel Adkins.

[Concrete John]

No two managers are the same, so any comparisons will ultimately fall down somewhere. 

One thing in his nature is that he does like to tinker with systems, styles and formations.  Perhaps the 'clear style of play' people bemoan us lacking would be seen if he would stick to a more settled system and run with it for an extended period?     

[eastie]

His achievements at Norwich were superb but I would compare him to another ex Norwich boss mike walker who was a great success at carrow road and moved to a bigger club at everton but found to be out of his depth .

Some managers are good at certain sized clubs but villa are a huge club and I'm not sure he is  up to the job.

[Chico Hamilton III]

If I had to compare Lambert with anybody, it would be Nigel Adkins.

Or Martin O'Neil - Wycombe, Norwich, Villa, media darlings, major tactical shortcomings which were ultimately exposed, stubborn as donkeys, long ball merchants.....

[Ads]

I don't think there are too comparisons with the job at Villa Park, given the sheer scale of the task at hand and the money available to complete it.

[JUAN PABLO]

I always really miss the Villa when they do not play at the weekend , yet this weekend I didnt , I was relieved.   Thanks Lambert

[OCD]

We seem to make a decision to sack a manager and then look around at what managers we might be able to get. Instead, why don't we draw up a specification of what exactly we want and then start sounding them out. If they're interested, then do the deed. It might not be the most ethical approach to talk to managers when we still have one but everyone else does it and we're not in a position to take a moral high ground in something that is so accepted. For me, I would want someone who would build a possession football model throughout the club.

Tony Mowbray?

Not one I was thinking of. Rodgers was my choice when we went for Lambert. Martinez would have been another example. I really like the ethos that Huw Jenkins has developed with Swansea.