How would you feel....

[Concrete John]

If he wants a midfield three, right to left - Bacuna, Westwood, Delph would provide a lovely balance. If he wants a compact four, perm any four of Albrighton/Bacuna - Westwood-Delph-Tonev/Bacuna.

I've thought for a while that's our best midfield three and really want him to try it. 

[PaulWinch again]

I think Bacuna, Westwood, Delph is worth a go.

[sirlordbaltimore]

The thought of us continuing with any midfield three brings me out in a cold sweat. I honestly think it's one of the key reasons, if not THE key reason we're useless.

We get outnumbered, drawn in to playing way too narrow and it deprives us of any width too.

I just don't see it as working any longer as we've been found out in that area and it's become completely ineffective. Nearly as ineffective as the front three which has also become hideously found out and toothless

[Monty]

SLB, that's the worst tactical analysis possible, I think. They get outnumbered because they overcommit forwards, and they have no width because the three up front play too narrowly, not the midfielders. You want to see outnumbered? Let's see us play 4-4-2 then. We either have two central midfielders against three (almost everyone plays three), completely outnumbered and isolated, or we play a narrow or even a diamond 4 in the middle and have exactly no width and no protection for the full-backs. We need to play three in the centre like everyone else does - it's just the wide players who need to play wider.

[sirlordbaltimore]

SLB, that's the worst tactical analysis possible, I think. They get outnumbered because they overcommit forwards, and they have no width because the three up front play too narrowly, not the midfielders. You want to see outnumbered?

I'm not sure i've ever disagreed with a post as much as the one above to be honest. And i've done some disagreeing on here!

How on earth do our midfield overcommit themselves forward ?, that's about as opposite to what they do as is possible. They couldn't play much deeper if they tried!

As for them not playing narrow ... ARE YOU SURE ?, you could cover all three of them with a deluxe sized duvet in most matches, as they're all usually stuck in and around the circumference of the centre circle

[Monty]

I'm not sure i've ever disagreed with a post as much as the one above to be honest. And i've done some disagreeing on here!

How on earth do our midfield overcommit themselves forward ?, that's about as opposite to what they do as is possible. They couldn't play much deeper if they tried!

As for them not playing narrow ... ARE YOU SURE ?, you could cover all three of them with a deluxe sized duvet in most matches, as they're all usually stuck in and around the circumference of the centre circle

I'm not saying the middle three aren't narrow, of course they are, that's why they're called a midfield three. Everyone does it. But the wide players play too narrowly too often, so we end up being crammed in. We need our midfielders to try and occupy the centre, but when they look up they have nobody in space to play it too because Gabby is too busy standing next to Benteke.

As for overcommitting, they didn't do it often, but whenever we were outnumbered in central midfield the other day it was because they'd all run to the ball in the Man Utd half and left a gaping chasm behind them and in front of the defence. I just want to know, what are your alternatives to three in the middle, and how would they improve us?

[PaulWinch again]

We're not outnumbered because of the central midfield three, we're outnumbered because the wide forwards don't support the midfield enough.

[Monty]

We're not outnumbered because of the central midfield three, we're outnumbered because the wide forwards don't support the midfield enough.

Exactly, because they essentially play as three centre forwards, narrow and high up the pitch. The effect of Albrighton's natural wingeriness was stark.

[andyh]

We could have 3,4 5,6, or 7 in midfield.
If they just play in front of our own back line as we do now, we will always invite trouble.

[paul_e]

Outnumbered in midfield - This is because our players get drawn out of position too easily, one of the games where this didn't happen was Southampton which we won because we kept our shape and let them have the ball where they couldn't hurt us.  The game I'd like to see us play is for us to press the ball more but we don't have the discipline in the middle to do that currently.  Monty is right, in defence our midfielders get drawn to far forward, KEA is really bad for it.

Narrow play - This is due to the movement we offer in the middle.  Gabby and Weimann will always want to move inside a little, they're strikers not wingers what we need is for people to move into the space they leave behind.  When we were doing well last season Lowton did that really well on the right side but on top of that we need on of the midfielders who can drift into those spaces as well, the edge of the box can be enough width if the movement is right and you have markers handing players on, etc.

The other issue with the width is that when we do get the ball wide we need someone finding space in the box.  At his best Benteke is excellent at finding those gaps, in his current form he's offering very little, which is very frustrating.

[sirlordbaltimore]

I see it as being outnumbered because we play 3 in midfield and 3 in attack.

Lambert's obviously told the 3 in attack to stay up which means the 3 in the middle, and i do literally mean the middle (NO WIDTH) often play against 5 or 4 depending on who we play against

4-3-3 is crap for us now because the players we have aren't good or clever enough to make it work IMHO. Teams know how to nullify our threat and how to expose our weaknesses far too easily.

You only had to look at poor Luna on Sunday and how woefully exposed he was down our left hand side, he had not protection from any of the midfield 3 or Gabby.

[Monty]

But other teams play three in the middle. Everyone plays three in the middle. If they don't, they get outnumbered. If you play a midfield four, then you have two in the middle against everyone else's three. I don't know where your getting these numbers from - everybody, and I mean absolutely absolutely everybody, knows that 4-3-3 has become the predominant formation so as to avoid getting overrun in the centre.

[sirlordbaltimore]

But other teams play three in the middle. Everyone plays three in the middle. If they don't, they get outnumbered. If you play a midfield four, then you have two in the middle against everyone else's three. I don't know where your getting these numbers from - everybody, and I mean absolutely absolutely everybody, knows that 4-3-3 has become the predominant formation so as to avoid getting overrun in the centre.

What do you mean everyone plays 3 in the middle and 3 up front like we do ?

[supertom]

It's also not so much a system problem either right now as it is all too frequent basic errors. We're fucking up 5 yard passes with frightening regularity and then teams break on us. Our forward 3 tend to have crammed themselves up among the opposition defence, and are thus in no position to be A- providing width in attack, or B- supporting the fullback if we're broken on and have to defend.

Likewise we don't really have a midfielder who's going to mop up and do the dirty work. Delph is expends a lot of energy but is always looking to run forward.
Westwood has no defensive inclination at all.
KEA does nothing.
Sylla was quite effective at breaking up the opposition, higher up the pitch last season, but he's been ineffective this season.

Have Herdy in the middle holding, carrying the can and he can help cover both fullbacks and take care of midfield runners who stroll through us too easily.

I hope Albrighton keeps his place too. He provides some attacking width, and at least helped out Lowton a bit. Defensively Alby isn't fantastic but he works hard.
Keep the ball better and we won't spend the vast majority of matches having to defend.

[bobdylan]

But other teams play three in the middle. Everyone plays three in the middle. If they don't, they get outnumbered. If you play a midfield four, then you have two in the middle against everyone else's three. I don't know where your getting these numbers from - everybody, and I mean absolutely absolutely everybody, knows that 4-3-3 has become the predominant formation so as to avoid getting overrun in the centre.

Man City, Man U and Liverpool have all regularly played 2 up front this season and many other teams have as well so it can still work.  I also prefer 3 in the middle though.