Aston Villa v Tottenham Hotspur Post-Match Thread

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Our improvement at the end of last season...

Note our form from February on. We were "the best of the rest" and did the likes of West Ham, Reading et al, but lost all games home and away against the top six, Everton the exception (but then we have a cracking record up there).

This season, we have played almost exclusively the top six and have bettered the results in a few and conceded fewer goals along the way. These sides will beat us more often than not. The fact we stuck three past Arsenal and three past Man City is tangible evidence of improvement.

We may have had to moderate the way we play; I thought Man City was very different from Lambert’s usual approach, but then that doesn’t make our approach exceptional in the context of the league.

Look at the Bitters; capable of being turned over at home with some awful performances, but also capable of beating or holding decent sides. Suffering tedious 0-0 draws along the way too. Why? They’re a mid-table club. So are we.

[saunders_heroes]

In the eras of Brian Little and Ron Atkinson there was a more level playing field. It was much more feasible to go out and buy players capable of performing at the top end of the table.

Big Ron bought players with PL experience in his tenure. No wonder we hit the ground running.

No he didn't. Name me one player with any Premier League experience that he bought.

Staunton, Parker, Cyrill? Unless you're referring to the top flight being called another name?

Kevin Richardson as well. All players with top flight experience (not PL. Naughty me).

[Ron Manager]

Our improvement at the end of last season...

Note our form from February on. We were "the best of the rest" and did the likes of West Ham, Reading et al, but lost all games home and away against the top six, Everton the exception (but then we have a cracking record up there).

This season, we have played almost exclusively the top six and have bettered the results in a few and conceded fewer goals along the way. These sides will beat us more often than not. The fact we stuck three past Arsenal and three past Man City is tangible evidence of improvement.

We may have had to moderate the way we play; I thought Man City was very different from Lambert’s usual approach, but then that doesn’t make our approach exceptional in the context of the league.

Look at the Bitters; capable of being turned over at home with some awful performances, but also capable of beating or holding decent sides. Suffering tedious 0-0 draws along the way too. Why? They’re a mid-table club. So are we.

Thats about it. Mid table club and not much hope of progressing higher. The kind of club that Fulham are season after season and Coventry in the distant past. A bit depressing really but in reality what we should expect.

[dave.woodhall]

Our improvement at the end of last season...

Note our form from February on. We were "the best of the rest" and did the likes of West Ham, Reading et al, but lost all games home and away against the top six, Everton the exception (but then we have a cracking record up there).

This season, we have played almost exclusively the top six and have bettered the results in a few and conceded fewer goals along the way. These sides will beat us more often than not. The fact we stuck three past Arsenal and three past Man City is tangible evidence of improvement.

We may have had to moderate the way we play; I thought Man City was very different from Lambert’s usual approach, but then that doesn’t make our approach exceptional in the context of the league.

Look at the Bitters; capable of being turned over at home with some awful performances, but also capable of beating or holding decent sides. Suffering tedious 0-0 draws along the way too. Why? They’re a mid-table club. So are we.

Thats about it. Mid table club and not much hope of progressing higher. The kind of club that Fulham are season after season and Coventry in the distant past. A bit depressing really but in reality what we should expect.

This is what really pisses me off - the idea that league positions have suddenly been cast in stone and we will never progress. Where we are now is where we've been at regular intervals in the past thirty years and every single time we've got better, so why the situation should change now is beyond me. 

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That's your opinion Ron Manager and its not one I agree with.

I don't think its possible for us to progress from the bottom six to top six in a season without spending more than the clubs who currently occupy those slots. We tried that and could neither afford nor sustain it.

The alternative is a slower approach and this appears to be the problem for a lot of fans. They can see irrefutable evidence of progress, but it isn't happening at the speed they would like.

If we have invested £40 million to buy 12-15 players to completely re-build the squad over two summers, with a wholesale change to the way the club operates, then I personally don't see that as being something that requires repeating summer after summer. Randy appears to be willing for the club to spend circa £20 million per summer, so why will it not be a case of next season, we spend that outlay not on building a squad, but refining it? Why will we not spend the Benteke money on top on say three £10 million pound players to supplement the squad, who will be a year older and wiser? Clark has certainly benefitted. I think Delph has too.

I think we will achieve mid-table this season and continue to be inconsistent while we're at it. I completely disagree that the strategy is a failure and that we have no chance of improving. It’s a long term plan, let it work its course, as there is no alternative.

[Ron Manager]

That's your opinion Ron Manager and its not one I agree with.

I don't think its possible for us to progress from the bottom six to top six in a season without spending more than the clubs who currently occupy those slots. We tried that and could neither afford nor sustain it.

The alternative is a slower approach and this appears to be the problem for a lot of fans. They can see irrefutable evidence of progress, but it isn't happening at the speed they would like.

If we have invested £40 million to buy 12-15 players to completely re-build the squad over two summers, with a wholesale change to the way the club operates, then I personally don't see that as being something that requires repeating summer after summer. Randy appears to be willing for the club to spend circa £20 million per summer, so why will it not be a case of next season, we spend that outlay not on building a squad, but refining it? Why will we not spend the Benteke money on top on say three £10 million pound players to supplement the squad, who will be a year older and wiser? Clark has certainly benefitted. I think Delph has too.

I think we will achieve mid-table this season and continue to be inconsistent while we're at it. I completely disagree that the strategy is a failure and that we have no chance of improving. It’s a long term plan, let it work its course, as there is no alternative.

You are right to say there is no alternative, there isn't. So we had better hope Paul Lambert provides some kind of success.I hope he does.

[supertom]

We're playing like excitable untrained dogs a lot of the time at the moment. It's like having a mutt on a lead, trying to wrench itself free from you and you have to reign it in. You toss a biscuit 30 yards in front of you, let go of the dog and it just flies off at 90mph after the biscuit, inevitably overruning, or in it's mad scramble to get hold of the biscuit juggling it around and not getting a bite. Then some higher class breed with better training casually strolls along, picks up the biscuit and happily eats it, while your dog starts nipping and jumping around the other dog, expending a lot of energy and not getting anywhere.

So basically. Send the whole squad to dog training school. 

But seriously we just have to calm it down sometimes. Maintain some composure. Again, this is something that as a very young squad, we should hopefully improve upon. We're always in a rush. Inevitably playing the top 6 thus far we've basically had a third of the possession generally. When we get the ball we try to break at full speed normally. Now Arsenal couldn't handle it. They hadn't fully returned from their hols I don't think. The problem is, if we go from soaking up in defence to then trying to shift straight into top gear, more often than not it doesn't work. I know we beat City, but come on, that game was just a head scratching anomaly. Christ knows how we pulled that off, but it's one of those one game a season sort of matches. We scored 3 goals in a game we never really looked like scoring in.

If there's no decent pass on then you can't rush it. Keep the ball. Try again. If it ends up going back to Guzan, it shouldn't then be punted straight up to the CF 9 times out of 10. If there's one thing we've actually regressed on from the latter part of last season, it's composure. Our movement off the ball is poorer than it was last season. That needs to get back.

Also at the moment certain players need a spell out because they're proving ineffectual. Westwood and Weimann two prime candidates. Andreas works his nuts off and gives his all but he's fluffed a couple of dozen chances this season. He gets 2-3 chances a game. Sometimes decent, some times half chances but he's fluffing his lines. I think he needs a few games on the bench. Tonev conversely looked confident when he came on. Perhaps time to be him in and he can also provide some width too.

[Simba]

Well there is an alternative and that is untenable to me being an old'un - Red Bull Villa.  Or similar. Or sell to big money a la Citeh.

Otherwise I agree that we just  'go again'.

[Rudy65]

I have to agree with the poster above, we may be picking up more points on a match for match comparison with last season. But nobody will convince me we're progressing as a football side.

We still play woeful football in the majority of games this season, there's very little to cling onto in terms of seeing some footballing progression or a style being put in place either (unless you class counter attacking as a welcome style of course)

I'm amazed that Lambert hasn't got something in place by now, he must've spent nearly 35m-40m over the two big windows on developing his side. Big Ron and Little moulded teams with a style within much shorter periods (both by the time their first full seasons hit the ground at least)

The only things pundits seem to have us pegged as are counter attacking, long ball merchants with little chance of dominating possession. Which they seem to be able to back up with stats. We may have fluked a few wins against two bigger sides, but surely that isn't fooling anyone that watches us regularly ?

I'd say the Hull/Newcastle games are more the real us, and that worries me greatly.

Agree with all that

[Mister E]

I'll admit that Sunday pissed me off because of the back-to-Guzan regularity and the expectation that Kozak would get anything out of Dawson in the air. I was annoyed because Spurs scored a jaxy first goal. It irritated me that the players seemed static and unsupporting of the man with the ball. I winced that Lambert had not got something different and tactic-changing on the bench, other than Benteke (not all his fault, but continuing to put Bowery there does  seem a little odd).
There were some good take-outs from the game, though, which demonstrate progress:
- Delph looks like a class act
- KEA has improved significantly
- Bacuna will develop into a great right MF player
- we do look tighter at the back, notwithstanding the goals we conceded on Sunday.

As others have said, the inconsistency is there and is a function of being a squad in transition.

[supertom]

I have to agree with the poster above, we may be picking up more points on a match for match comparison with last season. But nobody will convince me we're progressing as a football side.

We still play woeful football in the majority of games this season, there's very little to cling onto in terms of seeing some footballing progression or a style being put in place either (unless you class counter attacking as a welcome style of course)

I'm amazed that Lambert hasn't got something in place by now, he must've spent nearly 35m-40m over the two big windows on developing his side. Big Ron and Little moulded teams with a style within much shorter periods (both by the time their first full seasons hit the ground at least)

The only things pundits seem to have us pegged as are counter attacking, long ball merchants with little chance of dominating possession. Which they seem to be able to back up with stats. We may have fluked a few wins against two bigger sides, but surely that isn't fooling anyone that watches us regularly ?

I'd say the Hull/Newcastle games are more the real us, and that worries me greatly.

Agree with all that

Arsenal wasn't fluky. We genuinely deserved to win that and could have won more emphatically still.
We've not looked nearly as effective in attack since, which is a worry. We never really looked like scoring against Lpool. Chelsea we didn't create enough. Newcastle barely anything of note. Likewise Hull. Man City was bizarre. How we score 3 goals I don't know. Pelligrini will still be scratching his head on that one when he's on his death bed. Norwich we scraped a win without much conviction but in all honesty, scraping a few 1-0s is something we need to get in our arsenal again. We can't try to win every game 3-2.

Again though we're trying to run before we can walk. No width. We're rushing passes, we're trying to be at full pelt all the time but it doesn't work.
If you focus the majority of your attack through the center you have to be far more technically able than our squad is. We've got to expand our play and get it wide more. Utilise our pace better. For want of a better description, we've got to play more like we did under O Neill. A lot of our goals have come from wide areas. We started exploiting the wings more in the tail end of last season and it was paying off.

The ultimate goal might be for us to be more like Arsenal for example and be a slick, passing side, but until we buy 2-3 better midfielders and a couple of cultured wide men, that's an impossible dream.

[olaftab]

I am amazed by how some posters completely discount wins against man city and Arsenal  as a blip and defeats against Liverpool and Spurs as real us to rubbish the players and the Manager.  Beating Arsenal and City after being behind is nothing of course in their eyes. Well let's see how many others are going to do that this season? They also conveniently forget that we should have won at Chelsea and were never in danger of losing the match at Hull and should have won it if Gabby had a bit of luck.
Equal bollox is that Lambert has failed to find any golden nuggets from Europe with a limp excuse that Benteke was just luck. If so how many Managers for us or other clubs either now or in the past have turned up 4/5 massive players from nothing in a season?

[JUAN PABLO]

Defence is getting better but could it have got any worse , it was awful last season. Not sure If the rest of the team has got better, a lot of players so far have gone backwards and other than Bacuna , not sure of any of the other signings being better than what we had.

[Legion]

Luna.

[Toronto Villa]

Vlaar is better than last year as is Luna an upgrade on Bennett. In fact Vlaar would be even better with Okore at his side. KEA is better, delph has come on leaps and bounds and with Benteke back it will help Weimann. Gabby has been a bit below par and one or two players are having a second season dip in form. That said given our schedule it's not like in any game we have been blown out of the water like last season.

It does make me laugh to think that some people actually believe at PL level we are lucky when we win.