Dan Crowley

[paul_e]

We shall see regarding Wilshere. Chris is right to pick me up on the fact that he is better than 'slightly better than average' although I still stand by the comment I first disputed and that I think there is too much hype about him at this stage. I've been wrong in this sort of situation plenty of times before and it isn't that long since we were all saying the same about Bale. I even have to admit that Mascherano who I slated at the bindippers, looks pretty useful playing for Barcelona

Like you I think I found myself going to far the other way as a result of seeing far too many comments (both on here and in the press) about how fantastic he is.  I won't suggest I may be wrong though because I've stated a few times I think he can be that good he's just not yet.  I'm loath to write of anyone before they're 24-25 and have had time to learn to play in the league (hence I spend a lot of time defending Bannan on here) but I also don't like to see players overhyped before they can actually live up to the hype.  We've done it too many times in english football, where a player gets built up more and more and then never really achieves what people expect.  Owen, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham and Rooney have all been through the process in the last 10-15 years where people were calling them the best in the world and expecting them to lead us to glory but it's never happened, partly because the whole expectation on the country is suddenly on their shoulders as 21-22 year olds who just aren't ready for it.

I'm guilty of it with some players (Benteke for example who I firmly believe will be on of the top strikers in europe with 3 years) but I really don't like seeing it with English players.

[Steve R]

Wilshire is indeed better than average. But then again average consists of the likes of Cleverley and Carrick.

Wilshire is overhyped mainly because 'better than average' seems to be synonymous with 'world class' if you play for the right team in the Prem. He's not as good as Fabregas, for example.

Fabregas was the centre of the universe until he moved to Barca and comparison with truly world class became that much easier.

At the same age Gordon Cowans was better than both.

[Matt Collins]

I still think the Moore brothers are better than wayne rooney

[richard moore]

Wilshire is indeed better than average. But then again average consists of the likes of Cleverley and Carrick.

Wilshire is overhyped mainly because 'better than average' seems to be synonymous with 'world class' if you play for the right team in the Prem. He's not as good as Fabregas, for example.

Fabregas was the centre of the universe until he moved to Barca and comparison with truly world class became that much easier.

At the same age Gordon Cowans was better than both.

Excellent post and encapsulates exactly what I have been trying to say much more succinctly than I have managed to date. I also totally agree with Paul e. I am not disputing he might turn out to be a great player but he isn't that at the moment. The point Steve makes about being better than average and playing for the right team but the average in itself being so poor - witness last night - is very apposite. And Paul is correct to point out we have been through this process so many times with so many English players previously. You can add others to his list such as Joe Cole and Walcott. When was the last time one of these great English hopes really fulfilled their potential consistently on the international scene?

[onje_villa]

From that clip, I say start him Sunday!

[Dante Lavelli]

Here's a good article - if slightly tenuous - about how young players are often promoted too quickly into the England squad. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/football-further-blog/2013/mar/26/rushing-young-england-players-team-international

Deschamp's (I think) comment about getting the right balance between "carrot" and "stick" is an interesting one.  Would Rooney/Walcott/Cole have become better players if they'd had a bit longer without the "England's saviour" tag around their necks i.e. would they have "studied" football harder (stayed hungry longer) if they weren't pretty much told they'd already made it.

[Jenks]

I feel Wilshere deserves more credit than he is getting here. His worth can't be quantified with goal and assist stats, you have to look more deeply at how he effects the game. When he's on the ball he simply takes men out of the game, either with his passing when they stand off, or by gliding past them when they don't. It's fair to say that he's overrated when being compared with the world's best in that position, but England's? He's a class above. I don't know what "proof" you can point to for a player of his position, but MOTM performances against Brazil and Barcelona can't be sniffed at. The hype is not exclusive to England either:

"In his position, he’s one of the best players there are." - Bastian Schweinsteiger

"He is a great player who we have met playing against Arsenal and without doubt he can reach the height of the players we have here at Barcelona like Xavi and Iniesta,” Alves said.

“He has a lot of quality and a great personality. If I was given the chance to choose, he is a player that I would sign for Barcelona.” - Dani Alves

The effect he has on his team is significant. Whether it be driving runs that commit people or keeping possession where other midfielders wouldn't, or even supplying the killer pass. He's calm in possession, can dribble and beat a man, and he's a great passer. He's exactly the sort of midfielder England in particular need more of, any aspiring young English player should be flattered to be likened to him, and I'm sure Crowley is. Obviously the suggestions that he'll be the best midfielder in the world or that he could play for Barca are overstatements to say the least, but for his age, there are probably only two other players in Thiago and Veratti that are playing at the same sort of level.

So while I think it does go overboard at times, the hype is largely justified in Wilshere's case, unlike some others *cough* AOC* cough*.

[Mister E]

I feel Wilshere deserves more credit than he is getting here. His worth can't be quantified with goal and assist stats, you have to look more deeply at how he effects the game. When he's on the ball he simply takes men out of the game, either with his passing when they stand off, or by gliding past them when they don't. It's fair to say that he's overrated when being compared with the world's best in that position, but England's? He's a class above. I don't know what "proof" you can point to for a player of his position, but MOTM performances against Brazil and Barcelona can't be sniffed at. The hype is not exclusive to England either:

"In his position, he’s one of the best players there are." - Bastian Schweinsteiger

"He is a great player who we have met playing against Arsenal and without doubt he can reach the height of the players we have here at Barcelona like Xavi and Iniesta,” Alves said.

“He has a lot of quality and a great personality. If I was given the chance to choose, he is a player that I would sign for Barcelona.” - Dani Alves

The effect he has on his team is significant. Whether it be driving runs that commit people or keeping possession where other midfielders wouldn't, or even supplying the killer pass. He's calm in possession, can dribble and beat a man, and he's a great passer. He's exactly the sort of midfielder England in particular need more of, any aspiring young English player should be flattered to be likened to him, and I'm sure Crowley is. Obviously the suggestions that he'll be the best midfielder in the world or that he could play for Barca are overstatements to say the least, but for his age, there are probably only two other players in Thiago and Veratti that are playing at the same sort of level.

So while I think it does go overboard at times, the hype is largely justified in Wilshere's case, unlike some others *cough* AOC* cough*.

Welcome to H&V, Mr Gooner?!

[Jenks]

Na just interested in youth football. Came across the place looking for info on Crowley 

[Billy Walker]

I genuinely think if Wilshere played for a Wigan or West Brom very few of us would be aware of who he is.  He follows in a long line of London-based saviours of English football (see Joe Cole, Scott "Scotty" Parker etc.) who benefit from the London press hyping them up.   My guess is Wilshere has been signed to a top agent and PR firm since being a young lad, hence the over-the-top coverage he has received in the press and Talksport's fascination with his Tweets.  He's the Tom Daley of English football.

[PaulWinch again]

I think Wilshere is an excellent player and that view is shared by some pretty special footballers like Xavi and Iniesta. I hope this Crowley lad stays at Villa.

[Steve R]

Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.

[PaulWinch again]

Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.

No but he's also very good and Arsenal and England are noticeably better when he's in the team.

[mal]

Here's a good article - if slightly tenuous - about how young players are often promoted too quickly into the England squad. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/football-further-blog/2013/mar/26/rushing-young-england-players-team-international

Deschamp's (I think) comment about getting the right balance between "carrot" and "stick" is an interesting one.  Would Rooney/Walcott/Cole have become better players if they'd had a bit longer without the "England's saviour" tag around their necks i.e. would they have "studied" football harder (stayed hungry longer) if they weren't pretty much told they'd already made it.

 As Rooney continues to collect England records for his goalscoring exploits I'm not sure that I agree with you here. I still don't like the little s*** though

[Billy Walker]

Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.

No but he's also very good and Arsenal and England are noticeably better when he's in the team.

Are they?  I don't watch much of either but I did watch Spurs v Arsenal a few weeks back and thought Scott Parker was head and shoulders above Wilshere.  He was doing all the things Wilshere does: running with the ball, drawing players in and so on...the difference being he was genuinely effective.

I'm not saying Wilshere won't make a good player one day, but at the moment he is benefitting from some extraordinary hype.  It's almost as though his PR people are working in cahoots with Arsenal's marketing department in order to somehow justify their ridiculous season ticket prices to their fans.  In this way Arsenal can keep the cycle going of flogging their best players whilst replacing them with cheaper fare.  Just get the media to tell everyone that the cheap new guy is "world class" and the punters will swallow it.  See also Walcott and Oxlade- Chamberlain.

Imagine if Villa did this.  Imagine if we were charging the most expensive season tickets in world football whilst flogging off our best players every year.  I'm pretty sure we'd hire some top PR guys to work with the press to spin things and  help us justify those prices:  Gary Gardner would be getting his Tweets read out all over the place, for starters, and we'd get quotes from the head of Ajax youth development to wax lyrical about our boy wonder and how he single-handedly destroyed them in last year's NextGen.

We'd have stories and features about Benteke and Weimann pretty much every other day and invite the all the media's main football writers to come over to Bodymoor once a month to cover our latest "world class" stars in depth.  Arsenal are pretty slick at this kind of stuff - they've got to be to keep their business model ticking over.