Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: N'ZMAV on March 24, 2013, 06:54:08 PM
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Arsenal Plot Move for ‘New Jack Wilshere’ (http://www.caughtoffside.com/2013/03/24/arsenal-plot-move-for-new-jack-wilshere/?)
Arsenal have set their sights on talented young Aston Villa midfielder Dan Crowley according to the Sunday Mirror, with Arsene Wenger being linked with a move to make a lucrative offer for the 15 year old starlet.
Crowley has been dubbed the ‘New Jack Wilshere’ and has been capped seven times by the England Under 17 national team and could be picked up by the North London club for a small compensation fee and it may well be a move the young midfielder is all the more likely to consider given that his side has struggled all season and still face a fight to stay in the Premier League.
Aston Villa have a host of young talents peppered in Paul Lambert’s first team set-up and though some may believe Crowley would have a better chance of breaking into the Villa Park side it is also worth noting that Wenger is certainly more than willing to trust to youth.
Arsenal fans will be glad to hear that Jack Wilshere himself is now fit enough to return to training after recovering from another ankle knock.
Can't say I've ever heard of this kid. Glad to hear we have some highly rated kids coming through.
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Didn't we bum Arsenal when we took Samir Carruthers off them?
Happens all the time, and in plenty of different directions, at that age.
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I don't know anything about him either but i've got Mr Crowley by Ozzy Osbourne stuck in my head now.
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Didn't we bum Arsenal when we took Samir Carruthers off them?
Happens all the time, and in plenty of different directions, at that age.
Wasn't Jlloyd Samuel a 15 Year Old Starlet at one point?
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It's what Arsenal do.
Generally there's not many players that come directly through their ranks from 10-12+
They just cherry pick the better players from other sides from home and abroad, and offer the family of the player involved incentives (not bribes, not bribes at all).
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Except for when we take their best child footballers, obv
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Didn't we bum Arsenal when we took Samir Carruthers off them?
Happens all the time, and in plenty of different directions, at that age.
Wasn't Jlloyd Samuel a 15 Year Old Starlet at one point?
He'll always be known as "Sweet Boy" to me, Riss.
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it may well be a move the young midfielder is all the more likely to consider given that his side has struggled all season and still face a fight to stay in the Premier League.
Pathetic piece of journalism there. He's a few years away from even attempting to become a first-team regular.
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I find it difficult to take this title "new Jack Wilshere" seriously. Sorry but Wilshere has doe nothing and achieved f all to be considered as some sort of idol!
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it may well be a move the young midfielder is all the more likely to consider given that his side has struggled all season and still face a fight to stay in the Premier League.
Pathetic piece of journalism there. He's a few years away from even attempting to become a first-team regular.
Yes agree with you as I find this line particularly pathetic. And anyway Arsenal can f*ck off.
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Dan Crowley...sounds more like an auctioneer who makes people sign contracts for deathtraps in their own blood.
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Dan Crowley sounds more like a Leicestershire butcher who makes his own pork pies.
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Dan Crowley sounds more like a Leicestershire butcher who makes his own pork pies.
Goodbye horse
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Dan Crowley sounds more like a Leicestershire butcher who makes his own pork pies.
Goodbye horse
:)
Thank you
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I find it difficult to take this title "new Jack Wilshere" seriously. Sorry but Wilshere has doe nothing and achieved f all to be considered as some sort of idol!
You obviously didn't see him play for England against Brazil, or you'd know better.
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I find it difficult to take this title "new Jack Wilshere" seriously. Sorry but Wilshere has doe nothing and achieved f all to be considered as some sort of idol!
You obviously didn't see him play for England against Brazil, or you'd know better.
One game and a friendly at that? I agree with the original post. Yes, he may be all that but as yet he has not done or achieved enough to have such hype attached to him. Do you think if he played for Villa the hype would be anywhere near as great as it has been?
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Wilshire is the best thing since Jermaine Jenas
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I'm another one in the 'how has he got the rep' club regarding Wilshere. I see a decent technical player, with decent workrate but not much more. For example I don't think there's much difference between him and Ashley Westwood, they do a similar job with a similar level of success, 1 is touted as the key to England's future the other is completely ignored by the press.
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I like Westwood a lot, but Wilshire has mixed it with Europes best and hasn't looked out of place, and has suffered a couple of serious injuries.
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I find it difficult to take this title "new Jack Wilshere" seriously. Sorry but Wilshere has doe nothing and achieved f all to be considered as some sort of idol!
You obviously didn't see him play for England against Brazil, or you'd know better.
One game and a friendly at that? I agree with the original post. Yes, he may be all that but as yet he has not done or achieved enough to have such hype attached to him. Do you think if he played for Villa the hype would be anywhere near as great as it has been?
Wilshere is a promising player, but the hype around him is immense.
I vaguely remember Arsenal playing Barcelona in the Champions League, and Barcelona murdering them. At half time, the pundits spent most of the time talking about how Wilshere would have a genuine chance of getting into the Barcelona side, which was the most pointless, detached from reality, nonsensical piece of punditry I've ever heard.
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I find it difficult to take this title "new Jack Wilshere" seriously. Sorry but Wilshere has doe nothing and achieved f all to be considered as some sort of idol!
You obviously didn't see him play for England against Brazil, or you'd know better.
One game and a friendly at that? I agree with the original post. Yes, he may be all that but as yet he has not done or achieved enough to have such hype attached to him. Do you think if he played for Villa the hype would be anywhere near as great as it has been?
Wilshere is a promising player, but the hype around him is immense.
I vaguely remember Arsenal playing Barcelona in the Champions League, and Barcelona murdering them. At half time, the pundits spent most of the time talking about how Wilshere would have a genuine chance of getting into the Barcelona side, which was the most pointless, detached from reality, nonsensical piece of punditry I've ever heard.
There are better players than Wiltshire in the Barcelona squad who have little chance of getting in the Barcelona side. That's not saying that Wiltshire is rubbish, it's just pointing out that he's not good enough for their squad let alone the side. Fabregas his predecessor isn't exactly the darling of Camp Neu can't command a starting place and he's at least twice as good as Wiltshire.
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They hype around Wiltshire is more an indictment about that state of our game and the level of technical ability of the youngsters we’re producing.
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They hype around Wiltshire is more an indictment about that state of our game and the level of technical ability of the youngsters we’re producing.
Their tourist board must be doing a good job!!
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I like Westwood a lot, but Wilshire has mixed it with Europes best and hasn't looked out of place, and has suffered a couple of serious injuries.
As part of a team playing in a way that suits him though. I genuinely believe he'd be considered average at any other side in the premier league, but because Wenger rates him the press and England camp are falling over themselves to talk him up in case he turns out great. He's nothing like the talent that Fabregas was when he came through at Arsenal, for example.
Don't get me wrong, I think he has the potential to be a very good player, but to go on like he's one of the best players in the premier league as some have in the last year is ridiculous, he's 2-3 years away from being a player capable of dictating games.
I agree with Ads that it paints a sorry picture of the level of technical skill expected from youngster when one of slightly above average quality comes through and is hyped to this level.
The unusual thing about Wilshere is that he's been allowed to come through a premier league academy without having the physical attributes that most clubs focus on in those age groups.
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Wilshere is like Dunne though. During his injury, he somehow got "better and better" as a player, i think people see him through Danny Rose tinted glasses
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Wilshire is a great footballer with a high level of technical skill, would be a good player in any side in the world IMO
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He was a class apart of any of the players during our recent game at Arsenal.
Daft comparing him with Westwood, Wilshere has the potential to be the best midfielder England have produced since Scholes.
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He was a class apart of any of the players during our recent game at Arsenal.
Daft comparing him with Westwood, Wilshere has the potential to be the best midfielder England have produced since Scholes.
The key word is potential. His current performances are not those of the best midfielder england have produced since Scholes, they're pretty much average for any continuity midfielder in the league, hence the westwood comparison. I'm not saying he won't turn into a far better player, just that his current performances are nothing like enough to justify people comparing him with scholes, for example. Maybe a comment that he's doing a similar job as scholes did at that age and doing it well so he might become the same kind of player, but nothing more.
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I want to know when we are going to sign the next Carlton Palmer.
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He was a class apart of any of the players during our recent game at Arsenal.
Daft comparing him with Westwood, Wilshere has the potential to be the best midfielder England have produced since Scholes.
Paul Scholes, was never a midfielder in the Wilshire role though. Scholes was a deep lying, forward thinking footballer, who got better, and better and better with age and experience. Wilshire is more of a proper midfielder, which England tried to unimaginatively use Scholes as.
He is a talented boy, but not as good as the hype. He might be a bit too much of a complete player which sounds strange, but his doesn't have a niche. Platt and Lampard scored goals. Gerrard overhits passes and finds divine inspiration from time to time. Ince would battle. Barry would allow Germans with no pace run past him like Usian Bolt taking on Johny Vegas. I am not sure what Wilshire is best at yet. Knitting it all together maybe, but I would like to see him in a side like Barcelona. It would do him a lot of good to go somewhere like that.
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I want to know when we are going to sign the next Carlton Palmer.
Surprise Surprise!
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He was a class apart of any of the players during our recent game at Arsenal.
Daft comparing him with Westwood, Wilshere has the potential to be the best midfielder England have produced since Scholes.
Paul Scholes, was never a midfielder in the Wilshire role though. Scholes was a deep lying, forward thinking footballer, who got better, and better and better with age and experience. Wilshire is more of a proper midfielder, which England tried to unimaginatively use Scholes as.
He is a talented boy, but not as good as the hype. He might be a bit too much of a complete player which sounds strange, but his doesn't have a niche. Platt and Lampard scored goals. Gerrard overhits passes and finds divine inspiration from time to time. Ince would battle. Barry would allow Germans with no pace run past him like Usian Bolt taking on Johny Vegas. I am not sure what Wilshire is best at yet. Knitting it all together maybe, but I would like to see him in a side like Barcelona. It would do him a lot of good to go somewhere like that.
But Barcelona are unique, there is no "somewhere like that".
I think he is slightly over-hyped but a very good player nonetheless.
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Put it this way if Dan Crowley is that good we need to hold on to him.
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I like Westwood a lot, but Wilshire has mixed it with Europes best and hasn't looked out of place, and has suffered a couple of serious injuries.
Is the correct answer.
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He was a class apart of any of the players during our recent game at Arsenal.
Daft comparing him with Westwood, Wilshere has the potential to be the best midfielder England have produced since Scholes.
Paul Scholes, was never a midfielder in the Wilshire role though. Scholes was a deep lying, forward thinking footballer, who got better, and better and better with age and experience. Wilshire is more of a proper midfielder, which England tried to unimaginatively use Scholes as.
He is a talented boy, but not as good as the hype. He might be a bit too much of a complete player which sounds strange, but his doesn't have a niche. Platt and Lampard scored goals. Gerrard overhits passes and finds divine inspiration from time to time. Ince would battle. Barry would allow Germans with no pace run past him like Usian Bolt taking on Johny Vegas. I am not sure what Wilshire is best at yet. Knitting it all together maybe, but I would like to see him in a side like Barcelona. It would do him a lot of good to go somewhere like that.
But Barcelona are unique, there is no "somewhere like that".
I think he is slightly over-hyped but a very good player nonetheless.
He can accelaerate past players in midfield and consequently open the game up. A rare skill... similar to Gascoigne. It's a shame he's lost 18 months of his career but he can still become a really great player.
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I find it difficult to take this title "new Jack Wilshere" seriously. Sorry but Wilshere has doe nothing and achieved f all to be considered as some sort of idol!
You obviously didn't see him play for England against Brazil, or you'd know better.
One game and a friendly at that? I agree with the original post. Yes, he may be all that but as yet he has not done or achieved enough to have such hype attached to him. Do you think if he played for Villa the hype would be anywhere near as great as it has been?
Ahh...he doesn't play for Villa, so must be over-hyped, shit, etc. Got it.
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Ashley Westwood is nowhere near as good as Jack Wilshere.
Also, Dan Crowley is highly rated by England staff/fans.
Here is a video of him playing only the other day. He is the number 10
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He looks pretty good.
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He does look a bloody player.
I can see the comparison with Wilshere. Wilshere is in the Iniesta mould where if you get too tight he will glide past you and if you stand off him he will pick a pass. The assist was a great pass and watching him glide past the opposition there does remind me of him.
For those who don't rate Wilshere, I really don't understand. He is the stand out player in his generation by a mile for me. He could play for Barcelona.
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I want to know when we are going to sign the next Carlton Palmer.
I still haven't got over our failure to sign the last one.
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You see, I don't rate Wilshire that highly. Decent player with lots of bits of attributes you associate with a top midfielder. He just doesn't stand out at any for me.
He might learn. He might get better. He may really excel in some disciplines but, for the minute, I think he is overhyped.
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Going by that clip it looks like he plays off the main striker, has very talented feet and a low centre of balance. The sort of player we could do with in the first team. Of course there's a long way to go between U17 football and first team football and we've seen a lot of talented players not make it so there's a way to go yet.
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You see, I don't rate Wilshire that highly. Decent player with lots of bits of attributes you associate with a top midfielder. He just doesn't stand out at any for me.
He might learn. He might get better. He may really excel in some disciplines but, for the minute, I think he is overhyped.
That's more or less my take on him as well.
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He does look a bloody player.
I can see the comparison with Wilshere. Wilshere is in the Iniesta mould where if you get too tight he will glide past you and if you stand off him he will pick a pass. The assist was a great pass and watching him glide past the opposition there does remind me of him.
For those who don't rate Wilshere, I really don't understand. He is the stand out player in his generation by a mile for me. He could play for Barcelona.
On what are you basing an assertion that he's the stand out player of his generation? I know statistics don't say everything, but 86% pass accuracy is barely higher than Bannan, 4 assists and 2 goals in 24 matches is decent but nothing special, Westwood has 3 assists in 22 having stepped up from league 1 rather than being 'the best player of his generation' his key passes are about 2.2 which is decent but Bannan is 1.4 in a struggling side, so it's not exceptional in the slightest.
This is what I mean, people like to say how great he is but he's just not 'YET'. In a couple of years he may make the step up from potential to proven quality but at the moment people see flashes of brilliance from him and ignore the rest of the time where he's ineffective.
As for he could play for Barca, I'm afraid that's nonsense. Fabregas can't get into their central midfield and he's a long way ahead of Wilshere. In fact I'd say Thiago is a better player and he's only played about 25 games so far.
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It's what Arsenal do.
Generally there's not many players that come directly through their ranks from 10-12+
They just cherry pick the better players from other sides from home and abroad, and offer the family of the player involved incentives (not bribes, not bribes at all).
I was told by a colleague at work about Wenger directly tapping him up a month or more ago.
The person who told me said her friend had a lad who was a 'good footballer' and his family had been invited (and went) to Wengers house to chat about their son playing for Arsenal. She told me his name (Crowley).
It was interesting because she didn't know anything about football and wasn't making any comment other than how good this kid was compared with his mates. She didn't know much about him other than she thought he might be on Villa's books. In other words she wsasn't bullshitting or or trying to big up a story.
Anyhow, I was amazed how clubs are able to get away with this sort of thing.
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He does look a bloody player.
I can see the comparison with Wilshere. Wilshere is in the Iniesta mould where if you get too tight he will glide past you and if you stand off him he will pick a pass. The assist was a great pass and watching him glide past the opposition there does remind me of him.
For those who don't rate Wilshere, I really don't understand. He is the stand out player in his generation by a mile for me. He could play for Barcelona.
Stand out player in his generation by a mile? 'Amazing' would be a shorter way of putting it and would fit with the current vernacular of describing everything thus when in fact it isn't. For which see, Wilshere, a slightly better than average English midfielder which isn't exactly difficult when the competition in your generation is made up of Tom Cleverley et al. Presumably Gareth Bale belongs to another generation then?
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It's what Arsenal do.
Generally there's not many players that come directly through their ranks from 10-12+
They just cherry pick the better players from other sides from home and abroad, and offer the family of the player involved incentives (not bribes, not bribes at all).
I was told by a colleague at work about Wenger directly tapping him up a month or more ago.
The person who told me said her friend had a lad who was a 'good footballer' and his family had been invited (and went) to Wengers house to chat about their son playing for Arsenal. She told me his name (Crowley).
It was interesting because she didn't know anything about football and wasn't making any comment other than how good this kid was compared with his mates. She didn't know much about him other than she thought he might be on Villa's books. In other words she wsasn't bullshitting or or trying to big up a story.
Anyhow, I was amazed how clubs are able to get away with this sort of thing.
No different to what we did to Brighton for Barry.
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He was wearing gloves in that England U-17 clip. He has to go.
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Would you share a plate of pink wafers with Arsene? Come on Dan, it just doesn't make sense.
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News now is full of it today. The Dan Crowley story I mean.
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He does look a bloody player.
I can see the comparison with Wilshere. Wilshere is in the Iniesta mould where if you get too tight he will glide past you and if you stand off him he will pick a pass. The assist was a great pass and watching him glide past the opposition there does remind me of him.
For those who don't rate Wilshere, I really don't understand. He is the stand out player in his generation by a mile for me. He could play for Barcelona.
Stand out player in his generation by a mile? 'Amazing' would be a shorter way of putting it and would fit with the current vernacular of describing everything thus when in fact it isn't. For which see, Wilshere, a slightly better than average English midfielder which isn't exactly difficult when the competition in your generation is made up of Tom Cleverley et al. Presumably Gareth Bale belongs to another generation then?
*English player of this generation. He is that too. I can't believe anyone who watches Wilshire can't be impressed by his talent. He is by far and away the most technically gifted English footballer already. He is a superb talent.
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I know a few lads that know his family and apparently a very grounded lad, never seen him play so can't comment on his ability.
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Did i read that he is actually a Villa fan?
Mark Burke was a fantastic 15 year old,but never seemed to develop.Good luck to the lad, but lets see where he is in 3/4 yrs time.
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He does look a bloody player.
I can see the comparison with Wilshere. Wilshere is in the Iniesta mould where if you get too tight he will glide past you and if you stand off him he will pick a pass. The assist was a great pass and watching him glide past the opposition there does remind me of him.
For those who don't rate Wilshere, I really don't understand. He is the stand out player in his generation by a mile for me. He could play for Barcelona.
Stand out player in his generation by a mile? 'Amazing' would be a shorter way of putting it and would fit with the current vernacular of describing everything thus when in fact it isn't. For which see, Wilshere, a slightly better than average English midfielder which isn't exactly difficult when the competition in your generation is made up of Tom Cleverley et al. Presumably Gareth Bale belongs to another generation then?
You're significantly underestimating Wilshire, in my view, Richard. The initial comment might have been a little over the top, but he's already a step above "slightly better than average".
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He does look a bloody player.
I can see the comparison with Wilshere. Wilshere is in the Iniesta mould where if you get too tight he will glide past you and if you stand off him he will pick a pass. The assist was a great pass and watching him glide past the opposition there does remind me of him.
For those who don't rate Wilshere, I really don't understand. He is the stand out player in his generation by a mile for me. He could play for Barcelona.
Stand out player in his generation by a mile? 'Amazing' would be a shorter way of putting it and would fit with the current vernacular of describing everything thus when in fact it isn't. For which see, Wilshere, a slightly better than average English midfielder which isn't exactly difficult when the competition in your generation is made up of Tom Cleverley et al. Presumably Gareth Bale belongs to another generation then?
You're significantly underestimating Wilshire, in my view, Richard. The initial comment might have been a little over the top, but he's already a step above "slightly better than average".
No he isn't, really, he isn't. In flashes he shows that he has a good chance of becoming a fantastic player in the future but right now he's more potential than anything else. If he was as good as some of you seem to think Arsenal wouldn't be struggling to make the top 4, especially considering that Cazorla really is that good. At the moment Wilshere is good enough to be a regular in a side in the europa league places, ie about on a par with barry, petrov, milner. He may have better technique than them and be easier on the eye but until he's regularly controlling games (which is what he's there to do) he'll be a long way from the player a lot of people think he is.
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I don't follow your logic at all, Paul. Arsenal's major problems are defensive, hardly something you can blame on him. One player isn't going to make enough difference to compensate for those frailties.
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I don't follow your logic at all, Paul. Arsenal's major problems are defensive, hardly something you can blame on him. One player isn't going to make enough difference to compensate for those frailties.
I'm saying he's not the stand out player in a side who have been in the top 4 for years and have now fallen out of it. Yes they have defensive issues but they've also struggled to break teams down a lot in the last couple of years (last year they got into the top 4 on RVPs goals alone, many of which he made for himself). That coincides with the time when Wilshere has been heavily involved. Ok he's had a big injury in the middle of that period but he's still played 20odd games this season and has only really looked like bossing things in a handful of those.
Again, he'll probably go on to be a great player but he's not a great player yet. He reminds me a lot of bale 3-4 years ago, who looked likely to be a top player as there were a lot of good things to him but he wasn't using those skills well enough. With experience he's adapted his game to make the most of what he has and is now one of the 3-4 best players in the league. If Wilshere can adapt in a similar way then he'll be worthy of the praise he's getting but for now he's not some world class player who is going to be Englands savior.
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I don't follow your logic at all, Paul. Arsenal's major problems are defensive, hardly something you can blame on him. One player isn't going to make enough difference to compensate for those frailties.
I'm saying he's not the stand out player in a side who have been in the top 4 for years and have now fallen out of it. Yes they have defensive issues but they've also struggled to break teams down a lot in the last couple of years (last year they got into the top 4 on RVPs goals alone, many of which he made for himself). That coincides with the time when Wilshere has been heavily involved. Ok he's had a big injury in the middle of that period but he's still played 20odd games this season and has only really looked like bossing things in a handful of those.
Again, he'll probably go on to be a great player but he's not a great player yet. He reminds me a lot of bale 3-4 years ago, who looked likely to be a top player as there were a lot of good things to him but he wasn't using those skills well enough. With experience he's adapted his game to make the most of what he has and is now one of the 3-4 best players in the league. If Wilshere can adapt in a similar way then he'll be worthy of the praise he's getting but for now he's not some world class player who is going to be Englands savior.
You've clearly seen more of him than I have, Paul, so I'm not going to argue. I'm just saying that whenever I've seen him he's looked more than "slightly better than average" which is the comment I first disputed.
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I don't follow your logic at all, Paul. Arsenal's major problems are defensive, hardly something you can blame on him. One player isn't going to make enough difference to compensate for those frailties.
I'm saying he's not the stand out player in a side who have been in the top 4 for years and have now fallen out of it. Yes they have defensive issues but they've also struggled to break teams down a lot in the last couple of years (last year they got into the top 4 on RVPs goals alone, many of which he made for himself). That coincides with the time when Wilshere has been heavily involved. Ok he's had a big injury in the middle of that period but he's still played 20odd games this season and has only really looked like bossing things in a handful of those.
Again, he'll probably go on to be a great player but he's not a great player yet. He reminds me a lot of bale 3-4 years ago, who looked likely to be a top player as there were a lot of good things to him but he wasn't using those skills well enough. With experience he's adapted his game to make the most of what he has and is now one of the 3-4 best players in the league. If Wilshere can adapt in a similar way then he'll be worthy of the praise he's getting but for now he's not some world class player who is going to be Englands savior.
You've clearly seen more of him than I have, Paul, so I'm not going to argue. I'm just saying that whenever I've seen him he's looked more than "slightly better than average" which is the comment I first disputed.
Biggest problem Wilshere has is his fitness - whether it's football injuries or other recreational problems.
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We shall see regarding Wilshere. Chris is right to pick me up on the fact that he is better than 'slightly better than average' although I still stand by the comment I first disputed and that I think there is too much hype about him at this stage. I've been wrong in this sort of situation plenty of times before and it isn't that long since we were all saying the same about Bale. I even have to admit that Mascherano who I slated at the bindippers, looks pretty useful playing for Barcelona
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We shall see regarding Wilshere. Chris is right to pick me up on the fact that he is better than 'slightly better than average' although I still stand by the comment I first disputed and that I think there is too much hype about him at this stage. I've been wrong in this sort of situation plenty of times before and it isn't that long since we were all saying the same about Bale. I even have to admit that Mascherano who I slated at the bindippers, looks pretty useful playing for Barcelona
Like you I think I found myself going to far the other way as a result of seeing far too many comments (both on here and in the press) about how fantastic he is. I won't suggest I may be wrong though because I've stated a few times I think he can be that good he's just not yet. I'm loath to write of anyone before they're 24-25 and have had time to learn to play in the league (hence I spend a lot of time defending Bannan on here) but I also don't like to see players overhyped before they can actually live up to the hype. We've done it too many times in english football, where a player gets built up more and more and then never really achieves what people expect. Owen, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham and Rooney have all been through the process in the last 10-15 years where people were calling them the best in the world and expecting them to lead us to glory but it's never happened, partly because the whole expectation on the country is suddenly on their shoulders as 21-22 year olds who just aren't ready for it.
I'm guilty of it with some players (Benteke for example who I firmly believe will be on of the top strikers in europe with 3 years) but I really don't like seeing it with English players.
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Wilshire is indeed better than average. But then again average consists of the likes of Cleverley and Carrick.
Wilshire is overhyped mainly because 'better than average' seems to be synonymous with 'world class' if you play for the right team in the Prem. He's not as good as Fabregas, for example.
Fabregas was the centre of the universe until he moved to Barca and comparison with truly world class became that much easier.
At the same age Gordon Cowans was better than both.
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I still think the Moore brothers are better than wayne rooney
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Wilshire is indeed better than average. But then again average consists of the likes of Cleverley and Carrick.
Wilshire is overhyped mainly because 'better than average' seems to be synonymous with 'world class' if you play for the right team in the Prem. He's not as good as Fabregas, for example.
Fabregas was the centre of the universe until he moved to Barca and comparison with truly world class became that much easier.
At the same age Gordon Cowans was better than both.
Excellent post and encapsulates exactly what I have been trying to say much more succinctly than I have managed to date. I also totally agree with Paul e. I am not disputing he might turn out to be a great player but he isn't that at the moment. The point Steve makes about being better than average and playing for the right team but the average in itself being so poor - witness last night - is very apposite. And Paul is correct to point out we have been through this process so many times with so many English players previously. You can add others to his list such as Joe Cole and Walcott. When was the last time one of these great English hopes really fulfilled their potential consistently on the international scene?
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From that clip, I say start him Sunday!
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Here's a good article - if slightly tenuous - about how young players are often promoted too quickly into the England squad.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/football-further-blog/2013/mar/26/rushing-young-england-players-team-international
Deschamp's (I think) comment about getting the right balance between "carrot" and "stick" is an interesting one. Would Rooney/Walcott/Cole have become better players if they'd had a bit longer without the "England's saviour" tag around their necks i.e. would they have "studied" football harder (stayed hungry longer) if they weren't pretty much told they'd already made it.
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I feel Wilshere deserves more credit than he is getting here. His worth can't be quantified with goal and assist stats, you have to look more deeply at how he effects the game. When he's on the ball he simply takes men out of the game, either with his passing when they stand off, or by gliding past them when they don't. It's fair to say that he's overrated when being compared with the world's best in that position, but England's? He's a class above. I don't know what "proof" you can point to for a player of his position, but MOTM performances against Brazil and Barcelona can't be sniffed at. The hype is not exclusive to England either:
"In his position, he’s one of the best players there are." - Bastian Schweinsteiger
"He is a great player who we have met playing against Arsenal and without doubt he can reach the height of the players we have here at Barcelona like Xavi and Iniesta,” Alves said.
“He has a lot of quality and a great personality. If I was given the chance to choose, he is a player that I would sign for Barcelona.” - Dani Alves
The effect he has on his team is significant. Whether it be driving runs that commit people or keeping possession where other midfielders wouldn't, or even supplying the killer pass. He's calm in possession, can dribble and beat a man, and he's a great passer. He's exactly the sort of midfielder England in particular need more of, any aspiring young English player should be flattered to be likened to him, and I'm sure Crowley is. Obviously the suggestions that he'll be the best midfielder in the world or that he could play for Barca are overstatements to say the least, but for his age, there are probably only two other players in Thiago and Veratti that are playing at the same sort of level.
So while I think it does go overboard at times, the hype is largely justified in Wilshere's case, unlike some others *cough* AOC* cough*.
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I feel Wilshere deserves more credit than he is getting here. His worth can't be quantified with goal and assist stats, you have to look more deeply at how he effects the game. When he's on the ball he simply takes men out of the game, either with his passing when they stand off, or by gliding past them when they don't. It's fair to say that he's overrated when being compared with the world's best in that position, but England's? He's a class above. I don't know what "proof" you can point to for a player of his position, but MOTM performances against Brazil and Barcelona can't be sniffed at. The hype is not exclusive to England either:
"In his position, he’s one of the best players there are." - Bastian Schweinsteiger
"He is a great player who we have met playing against Arsenal and without doubt he can reach the height of the players we have here at Barcelona like Xavi and Iniesta,” Alves said.
“He has a lot of quality and a great personality. If I was given the chance to choose, he is a player that I would sign for Barcelona.” - Dani Alves
The effect he has on his team is significant. Whether it be driving runs that commit people or keeping possession where other midfielders wouldn't, or even supplying the killer pass. He's calm in possession, can dribble and beat a man, and he's a great passer. He's exactly the sort of midfielder England in particular need more of, any aspiring young English player should be flattered to be likened to him, and I'm sure Crowley is. Obviously the suggestions that he'll be the best midfielder in the world or that he could play for Barca are overstatements to say the least, but for his age, there are probably only two other players in Thiago and Veratti that are playing at the same sort of level.
So while I think it does go overboard at times, the hype is largely justified in Wilshere's case, unlike some others *cough* AOC* cough*.
Welcome to H&V, Mr Gooner?!
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Na just interested in youth football. Came across the place looking for info on Crowley ;)
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I genuinely think if Wilshere played for a Wigan or West Brom very few of us would be aware of who he is. He follows in a long line of London-based saviours of English football (see Joe Cole, Scott "Scotty" Parker etc.) who benefit from the London press hyping them up. My guess is Wilshere has been signed to a top agent and PR firm since being a young lad, hence the over-the-top coverage he has received in the press and Talksport's fascination with his Tweets. He's the Tom Daley of English football.
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I think Wilshere is an excellent player and that view is shared by some pretty special footballers like Xavi and Iniesta. I hope this Crowley lad stays at Villa.
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Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.
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Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.
No but he's also very good and Arsenal and England are noticeably better when he's in the team.
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Here's a good article - if slightly tenuous - about how young players are often promoted too quickly into the England squad.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/football-further-blog/2013/mar/26/rushing-young-england-players-team-international
Deschamp's (I think) comment about getting the right balance between "carrot" and "stick" is an interesting one. Would Rooney/Walcott/Cole have become better players if they'd had a bit longer without the "England's saviour" tag around their necks i.e. would they have "studied" football harder (stayed hungry longer) if they weren't pretty much told they'd already made it.
As Rooney continues to collect England records for his goalscoring exploits I'm not sure that I agree with you here. I still don't like the little s*** though
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Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.
No but he's also very good and Arsenal and England are noticeably better when he's in the team.
Are they? I don't watch much of either but I did watch Spurs v Arsenal a few weeks back and thought Scott Parker was head and shoulders above Wilshere. He was doing all the things Wilshere does: running with the ball, drawing players in and so on...the difference being he was genuinely effective.
I'm not saying Wilshere won't make a good player one day, but at the moment he is benefitting from some extraordinary hype. It's almost as though his PR people are working in cahoots with Arsenal's marketing department in order to somehow justify their ridiculous season ticket prices to their fans. In this way Arsenal can keep the cycle going of flogging their best players whilst replacing them with cheaper fare. Just get the media to tell everyone that the cheap new guy is "world class" and the punters will swallow it. See also Walcott and Oxlade- Chamberlain.
Imagine if Villa did this. Imagine if we were charging the most expensive season tickets in world football whilst flogging off our best players every year. I'm pretty sure we'd hire some top PR guys to work with the press to spin things and help us justify those prices: Gary Gardner would be getting his Tweets read out all over the place, for starters, and we'd get quotes from the head of Ajax youth development to wax lyrical about our boy wonder and how he single-handedly destroyed them in last year's NextGen.
We'd have stories and features about Benteke and Weimann pretty much every other day and invite the all the media's main football writers to come over to Bodymoor once a month to cover our latest "world class" stars in depth. Arsenal are pretty slick at this kind of stuff - they've got to be to keep their business model ticking over.
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Ashley Westwood is nowhere near as good as Jack Wilshere.
Also, Dan Crowley is highly rated by England staff/fans.
Here is a video of him playing only the other day. He is the number 10
that defence looks great , proper life on line and the No,7 looks an handful . It's great to have a highly rated young player at Villa.
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He looks to have unbelievable ball skills and the potential to be of the sort of star quality I've not seen come through at Villa before. Much quicker feet than someone like Gardner. I agree he does look like Wilshere the way he glides. Not many English players can do that. And for what it's worth I can't believe people are seriously disputing Wilshere's quality.
But he's got a massively long way to go before he has made it. There are so many risks to doing that. Could very easily not even make it to first team standard.
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Sent off for England.
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Bit harsh, but a silly thing to do all the same. Lesson learned you would hope.
Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.
I didn't post them as proof that the opinions they express are true, I posted them as proof that the hype isn't exclusively an English thing. This isn't directed at you, but I'd have to question the knowledge of him or understanding of the game of anyone who doesn't recognise his talent. He's comfortably the best midfielder England has right now.
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Play him on Sunday 8)
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Bit harsh, but a silly thing to do all the same. Lesson learned you would hope.
Those quotes don't mean a great deal. Alex Ferguson thinks McLeish is a top manager.
I didn't post them as proof that the opinions they express are true, I posted them as proof that the hype isn't exclusively an English thing. This isn't directed at you, but I'd have to question the knowledge of him or understanding of the game of anyone who doesn't recognise his talent. He's comfortably the best midfielder England has right now.
There's no question Wilshere is a decent player; perhaps a future 'great' (whatever that means).
The comparison with Fabregas earlier was sensible though: he made the Arse tick but struggles to get into the Barca midfield: you're only as good as the environment around you makes you.
Regarding Crowley, if he continues to progress and makes our first team, fantastic. But - like all of the youngsters - let's make sure we give him / them the best possible development path.
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thanks for posting that lovely clip!
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I wonder if he'll be as magic as his great-great-grandad Aleister?
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He'd be a beast.
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Squad number 666?
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Based on that last video no wonder Wenger is interested. His running with the ball and acceleration reminds me of the young Michael Owen.
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Maybe we end up with Jimmy Page as a celeb supporter? Running out The Lemon Song would be different.
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Squad number 666?
A desendent of Aleister Crowley?
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Has he already gone? From all the press on this you would think it was a done thing. Surely we will fight hard to keep hold of this kid.
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It seems like the original article was from a Gooner blogger/writer. So it's very likely that there was never anything to it and the second rate sites (metro, mirror etc.) just jumped on it as easy click bait.
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If this kid is that good he deserves to be at the best academy in Europe.
Oh...
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He's just Tweeted that it's his last week at Villa. Liverpool or Arsenal believed to be the teams he's choosing between.
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Yeah he's off. Hope he goes on to be shit now. We'll be getting peanuts for him anyway.
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Hope he goes to Arsenal
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Going for the money?
If he is that good, he would have more chance of breaking into the first team sooner at Aston Villa than Arse or Liverpool.
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Well we've poached youngsters from other teams I guess, including Arsenal. I could do with some good news.
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Yeah he's off. Hope he goes on to be shit now. We'll be getting peanuts for him anyway.
Rather like Harry Forrester...
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wanker.
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So Arsene inviting him and his parents round for bouef bourguignon paid off. Sneaky grasshole.
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Look its his career and he can do what he wants, but I find it a bit strange that we are losing players from the academy like this - especially if he is the talent he seems to be.
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Look its his career and he can do what he wants, but I find it a bit strange that we are losing players from the academy like this - especially if he is the talent he seems to be.
Not that strange, his head has probably been turned by an agent and the promise of lots of money. If he had any sense he would realise that his chances of first team football are better at Villa but then again Arse aren't shy in blooding youngsters either are they?
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Look its his career and he can do what he wants, but I find it a bit strange that we are losing players from the academy like this - especially if he is the talent he seems to be.
It's one player in God knows how many years. In that time we've turned poaching players from other Academies, including Arsenal's, into an art form.
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He can go and good luck to him. Making it as a footballer is tough so hope the kid makes it.
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I'm sure leaving the club boasting the current Next Gen Champions will be a sensible move for the kid and is in no way down to financial inducements to him or his parents.
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If you were his parent looking at the path to first team football and our current set up, I think I would be telling the kid to stay put!!
Is he from these parts? If so even more strange. I hope we are properly compensated.
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Villa is probably the best place in England to be a youth player right now. We've managed to pinch a few astute players from other academies around England and Europe because we offer the best product and environment for youth players. What we don't offer is the best money; Arsenal do that. So realistically the boy is less likely to make the grade at Arsenal but will line his pockets with a slightly more lucrative scholarship contract that pales in comparison to a professional contract.
In my eyes that's madness but if you were going to leave the Villa academy then Arsenal is probably the second best choice around.
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He may well end-up back here in future by which time we'll be running out to Mister Crowley at VP.
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After the apalling way he behaved with his u-turn on Ireland, I knew this would happen.
His attitude seems appalling, and he's clearly under the impression that he's already made it when he hasn't achieved a thing.
He won't make it.
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Did'nt we prise Carruthers away from Arsenal?
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Have to say I think the way he's put it on twitter to say he's leaving but hasn't decided where he's going is pretty disrespectful, a 'sad to leave villa but looking forward to joining up with xxx' would be ok but this feels a bit like he wants to be anywhere but here, can tell he's only a kid still.
I do wonder what he's been offered (or his family) for them to think he'd be better served moving away from what is currently the best academy in Europe.
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Such is life, clubs poach youngsters all the time including us. Now hopefully they guaranteed him that Arsenal will draw or beat Wigan tomorrow.
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This kid is an absolute and utter nobody. For every 15 year old starlet who goes on to become a top player there are a hundred Stefan Moores, Stephen Cookes, Graham Fentons, Richard Walkers, Danny Cadamarteris etc etc.
Let him go and good luck to him and his family.
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In the nicest possible way, if he doesn't want to be here then fuck him.
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Dan Who?
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Such is life, clubs poach youngsters all the time including us. Now hopefully they guaranteed him that Arsenal will draw or beat Wigan tomorrow.
Yup. We do this all the time. He has made his decision. I hope he regrets it and we dont.
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I was going to say it didn't work out for Franny Jeffers, but I guess it did.
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He's a very good player. Disappointed with this but never mind.
All the best to him.
The little rat bastard.
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There's the garden shed option. Only a couple of years or so....Darn. Cleveland's gone.
I know, very bad taste.
But it's the Villa.
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For the people giving this 15 year old abuse over his decision, I wonder if you'll extend the same courtesy to the players you "poach" from elsewhere. I suspect not. And from a purely practical standpoint, you should want him to succeed, as it's through his potential first team appearances that you'll earn your money back.
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For the people giving this 15 year old abuse over his decision, I wonder if you'll extend the same courtesy to the players you "poach" from elsewhere. I suspect not. And from a purely practical standpoint, you should want him to succeed, as it's through his potential first team appearances that you'll earn your money back.
You? Who do you support Jenks?
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Jenkinson, the Arsenal full back isn't he?
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For the people giving this 15 year old abuse over his decision, I wonder if you'll extend the same courtesy to the players you "poach" from elsewhere. I suspect not. And from a purely practical standpoint, you should want him to succeed, as it's through his potential first team appearances that you'll earn your money back.
One person called him a wanker. It's hardly page after page of vitriol. If you think he's been given lots of abuse perhaps the internet isn't the place for you.
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Jenkinson, the Arsenal full back isn't he?
If so, thanks for last night!
I think abuse on here in this thread has been very tongue in cheek. Any group of fans would be gutted to see a talent who is so highly rated nationally leave though.
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I think I pretty explicitly aimed that only at the people who had griefed him. Footballing hypocrisies are a pet peeve of mine, probably one of the main reasons I can't bring myself to support a club. I suppose when I read the comment back it does look overly bitter though :-X
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good luck to him I say, but why he'd want to leave the European champions at this level is beyond me? Maybe someone should send him the DVD of when we banged 10 goals aginst their academy a couple of seaons back. Still, for every Crowley leaving I'm sure our scouts are filling the pipeline also. Joning Villa's youth system is nothing to be sniffed at.
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I think I pretty explicitly aimed that only at the people who had griefed him. Footballing hypocrisies are a pet peeve of mine, probably one of the main reasons I can't bring myself to support a club. I suppose when I read the comment back it does look overly bitter though :-X
We're bitter we can't have "Mr Crowley" as our chant for him now.
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For the people giving this 15 year old abuse over his decision, I wonder if you'll extend the same courtesy to the players you "poach" from elsewhere. I suspect not. And from a purely practical standpoint, you should want him to succeed, as it's through his potential first team appearances that you'll earn your money back.
One person called him a wanker. It's hardly page after page of vitriol. If you think he's been given lots of abuse perhaps the internet isn't the place for you.
One tweeter said things like he wishes he gets a career threatening injury and the like. Some of the abuse was pretty OTT.
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Dan Who?
This.
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I was on about in here, which is where Jenks posted.
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That is twitter though, not us. I may wish an abhorrent human being like Terry a career ending injury preferably affecting his vocal chords so he is never a pundit either, but this lad I just shake my head and wonder why? Of all the clubs in the country to move too Arsenal would be one of the last for a young player wanting to come through. Gibbs has waited years, Wilshire has been burnt out to the point of needing about his 6th operation in 3 years, Walcott has been tragically mis-managed at times. Chaimberlain is in and out all the time and Ramsey well.... where the player he was before the Shawcross tackle is I don't know, but I doubt he will ever come back.
Much better to stay at a club that there is a path through and then leave for real riches if that is the wish. Going now just strikes me as chasing the first offer.
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For the people giving this 15 year old abuse over his decision, I wonder if you'll extend the same courtesy to the players you "poach" from elsewhere. I suspect not. And from a purely practical standpoint, you should want him to succeed, as it's through his potential first team appearances that you'll earn your money back.
One person called him a wanker. It's hardly page after page of vitriol. If you think he's been given lots of abuse perhaps the internet isn't the place for you.
One tweeter said things like he wishes he gets a career threatening injury and the like. Some of the abuse was pretty OTT.
What do you expect on Twitter. On here there might be the odd harsh remark but Twitter would make this site look like his personal fan club.
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Apologies, I thought Jenks was referring to the abuse he had got in general, not specifically on here (if the comments even qualify as abuse).
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Dan Crowley is a special talent. At 15 he is running games in the under 18 section and was in the squad for our NextGen triumph. Quite why the lad seems to want away is a mystery. Why ? Villa have the best youth and Academy system in the country - and as this season has shown - our manager believes if you are good enough you are old enough.
I would like the club to make a statement on this issue - I mean if we can't hold onto and develop our talent at 15 and in the youth team - what chance do we have holding them when they are 22 and just had a stellar season in the first team?
Arsenal like poaching young talent and I fear a brown paper bag may have changed hands. Bribery never - inducements - benefits - expenses - of course. Villa need to stand up here and fight - or what happens to our club when other lazy vultures start circling?
Tell us what is going on Villa - we need to keep our best talent.
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We poached Carruthers from Arsenal when he was 16. It happens.
Wanting a statement from the club is a tad OTT.
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Agreed, although I am somewhat perplexed that someone who doesn't support any club is taking the moral high ground with us?
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I would like the club to make a statement on this issue
You are joking right? None of us have any idea whatsoever whether this player will make it or not. You are a supporter of the club with one of the finest academies in Europe. I will guarantee you that not all of those players came from the Birmingham or local catchment area. We have done this to other clubs all will continue to do so in the future. It's not a big deal and only a fraction of any of these players ever completely fulfil their potential. There have been many young "stars" that never made it. Crowley may well be the exception to that rule, but certainly not something the club should making any kind of statement about.
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The only thing I would like is more realistic compensation figures. So if a player is poached at 16, then big figures are paid for achievements later down the line up to 5-6 million not an arbitrary 1-2m. It might encourage clubs not to do it so much.
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I personally amazed this thread has made 10 pages, let alone wanting a club statement.
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That club statement in full:
"A 15 year old doesn't want to be in our gang anymore."
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The only thing I would like is more realistic compensation figures. So if a player is poached at 16, then big figures are paid for achievements later down the line up to 5-6 million not an arbitrary 1-2m. It might encourage clubs not to do it so much.
That essentially is the current situation. You get a fixed free for a player based on how long they've been at the club and what category academy the clubs has, then an additional £150k for every 10 Premier League appearances he makes, dropping down to £100k per 10 once he breaks the 60 mark. People slag the EPPP off compensation system off, but after a few seasons these figures will soon start adding up.
Agreed, although I am somewhat perplexed that someone who doesn't support any club is taking the moral high ground with us?
What does one have to do with the other?
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Mr Crowley. What went on in your head....
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I still don't see why he would choose to leave by far the best academy in the country. Even more so that he left for the 3rd biggest team in London. Even us and Millwall have looked more likely to win a trophy in recent times than them. I mean seriously, what is the point of Arsenal anymore? Soulless silent stadium filled with plastic, and I don't just mean the seats, never win anything, since RVP left they don't have a single player anyone cares about. Boring boring Arsenal indeed. Boring stadium, boring fans, boring players, boring manager.
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I would like the club to make a statement on this issue - I mean if we can't hold onto and develop our talent at 15 and in the youth team - what chance do we have holding them when they are 22 and just had a stellar season in the first team?
Arsenal like poaching young talent and I fear a brown paper bag may have changed hands. Bribery never - inducements - benefits - expenses - of course. Villa need to stand up here and fight - or what happens to our club when other lazy vultures start circling?
Tell us what is going on Villa - we need to keep our best talent.
errr, we poach young talent before they sign terms at the age of 16 as well. all clubs do it. we're talking about kids here, the law is there to protect them regardless if they play football or not.
it's a shame the lad has gone elsewhere, but i think it's obvious why they would appeal to him. fabregas joined arsenal at 16 as well, wilshere came through the ranks. 2 players i imagine he is trying to emulate.
if this wasn't getting press coverage, no one would give a shit. happens all the time. he may go onto be a brilliant player, he may join the likes of dean parrett, michael woods and tom taiwo. teenagers who were hyped up, attracted bitter disputes over compensation and ultimately ended up doing fuck all in the lower leagues.
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The only thing I would like is more realistic compensation figures. So if a player is poached at 16, then big figures are paid for achievements later down the line up to 5-6 million not an arbitrary 1-2m. It might encourage clubs not to do it so much.
That essentially is the current situation. You get a fixed free for a player based on how long they've been at the club and what category academy the clubs has, then an additional £150k for every 10 Premier League appearances he makes, dropping down to £100k per 10 once he breaks the 60 mark. People slag the EPPP off compensation system off, but after a few seasons these figures will soon start adding up.
Agreed, although I am somewhat perplexed that someone who doesn't support any club is taking the moral high ground with us?
What does one have to do with the other?
And lets say he is the next Wilshire, and leaves for 30 million at 22. What do the club he has been engineered away from get of that?
Any young player going to arsenal needs to look at that Merida lad that all and sundry said was going to be better than Fabregas. Where is he now?
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Why look at Merida and not Fabregas himself? He left La Masia, probably the best academy in the world, and it hardly hurt his career. There's only so much an academy can do, much is up to the player. Crowley by all accounts has massive potential, and it's largely up to him to fulfil it. As for the money issues, well personally I think the rights of the matter should favour the child, not the club. In no other industry would it even be thinkable that kids should be bought and sold like commodities, let alone tolerated. You could argue that another club has bribed him, you could argue that Villa haven't done enough to make him feel like he's better off staying, but either way if it's a mistake then it should be his mistake to make.
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Why is la masia the best academy in the world? because they were lucky enough to have the same talent all coming through (roughly) at the same time. that's the players not the academy. And luck.
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Why look at Merida and not Fabregas himself? He left La Masia, probably the best academy in the world, and it hardly hurt his career. There's only so much an academy can do, much is up to the player. Crowley by all accounts has massive potential, and it's largely up to him to fulfil it. As for the money issues, well personally I think the rights of the matter should favour the child, not the club. In no other industry would it even be thinkable that kids should be bought and sold like commodities, let alone tolerated. You could argue that another club has bribed him, you could argue that Villa haven't done enough to make him feel like he's better off staying, but either way if it's a mistake then it should be his mistake to make.
totally agree with that
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Why is la masia the best academy in the world? because they were lucky enough to have the same talent all coming through (roughly) at the same time. that's the players not the academy. And luck.
you are joking right?
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if this wasn't getting press coverage, no one would give a shit. happens all the time. he may go onto be a brilliant player, he may join the likes of dean parrett, michael woods and tom taiwo. teenagers who were hyped up, attracted bitter disputes over compensation and ultimately ended up doing fuck all in the lower leagues.
You may be right given some of the comments on the matter but I give a shit cos I follow our youth and academy sides - and I would like to know why such a promising player is leaving. The kid is mustard - which is I know no guarantee of future success but ffs - surely we want to keep our best? I seem to be alone in giving a shit.
As Arsene might say - C'est la vie.
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Although the kid may be mustard I hear on the grapevine he has a massive chip on his shoulder and disruptive with the other academy players and coaches. Apparently they cant wait to get rid as he has been playing Villa off against other clubs all season.
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Although the kid may be mustard I hear on the grapevine he has a massive chip on his shoulder and disruptive with the other academy players and coaches. Apparently they cant wait to get rid as he has been playing Villa off against other clubs all season.
If that's true it is best we got rid.
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I can't bring myself to support a club.
You can admit to supporting Arsenal you know. No-one really cares.
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The problem is the contracts, or lack of them given to the youngsters. They have freedom to move. Ultimately like any player, if he wants to leave, then let him go. As others have said he will probably be lost in amongst all the foreign youngsters at Arse who will probably be far better and stronger than him.
He will likely join the vast majority of promising 15 year olds who disappear into non league footy or altogether
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I can't bring myself to support a club.
You can admit to supporting Arsenal you know. No-one really cares.
I don't support Arsenal. I haven't said anything to suggest that I do, and I wouldn't be worried about saying I did if I did.
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Although the kid may be mustard I hear on the grapevine he has a massive chip on his shoulder and disruptive with the other academy players and coaches. Apparently they cant wait to get rid as he has been playing Villa off against other clubs all season.
Spot on................heard similar 12 months ago - a special talent ? maybe but only time will tell
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Many a special talent have come to nothing because of a poor attitude. I hope for his sake that isn't the case here.
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I wager we will never hear this name again.
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I still have a fundamental issue with youth team players leaving for peanuts. I don't think initial fees should be large, but maybe % of sell on fees should go to the original club. Something to properly compensate sides bringing players through for others to steal. Like we do.
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I still have a fundamental issue with youth team players leaving for peanuts. I don't think initial fees should be large, but maybe % of sell on fees should go to the original club. Something to properly compensate sides bringing players through for others to steal. Like we do.
You get £150,000 for every 10 first team appearances he makes in the Premier League up to 60 appearances. After that you get £100,000 for every 10 appearances up to 100. So basically £1.3m if he makes it, plus the initial fee, which is probably around £160,000 assuming he's been with the academy since 12 at least. It depends what the % is of course, but I doubt academies would make more money through transfer fees that than the system they've already put in place. Fair enough if it's 10% on £20m or something, but the vast majority of transfers are going to be much more modest figures.
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fucking hell 11 pages on a kid that before page one most of us had never heard of. You'd think he was moving to the champions of Europe not from them.
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Is he still going on? Fuck it, they can have him. Lambert will sign a better version in Belguim.
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I wager we will never hear this name again.
I doubt that very much. He might not make it, no player at that age is guaranteed unless they're already pushing on a first team place, which is very rare. However one of the most highly rated youngsters in the country who is already playing 3 years above his level is probably a safe bet to make a career, how high up that career takes him is dependent on his attitude more than anything else, the ability is there, in a raw form.
Are we that bothered that a 15 year old has left? A little but if we keep on this path we'll be stealing kids like this from other people far more than they walk away from us.
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the fuss over this kid or the fuss over the likes of Wilshere is what annoys the piss out of me about England. Is Wilshere a good player? Yes. Is he world class? Not even fucking close. We go on about these players as if they are the next saviour. Well they are not. We bleat on about them because they are players that come along once in a while and are better than the other dross our system produces. The Germans, Spanish, French, Italians, Brazilians etc produce numerous players of Wilshere's quality and several that are much better which is why consistently they are better than England at the national level. As a nation we get so wrapped up in our own league and sense of self worth that we fail to see the damage we have done to ourselves.
At some point in time in the past 20-30 yrs England had a better national program and team than France, Germany and Spain as examples. Yet each of those nations in that time, identify the issues that held them back, were able to change what they did domestically that not only enhanced their own leagues, but created a steady stream of young players that would excel on the world stage. It remains shameful that a nation of 50m+, with one of the most profitable and lucrative domestic leagues on the planet should ever struggle to beat the likes Montenegro or Poland. Yet, we miss the forest for the trees, generation after generation. Instead of heralding Rooney or Gerrard as the best thing since sliced bread we should be creating many, many more of them, and not accepting them as a bar that is set once in a while. Instead that should be the minimum standard and it isn't. So we keep telling the world how great we are as a nation, and wonder why at the end of every tournament we never advance past the last 16 or 8, provided we even get there.
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The sorts of changes that Spain made 20 years ago and Germany made 10 years ago are the sorts of changes that England are making now. If anything I think it's testament to the changing attitudes in this country that players like Wilshere get the attention they do. In days gone by a diminutive, left-footed technical player like him would likely have been stuck out wide and forgotten about, and we'd have been harping on about Cleverley and Henderson because they score goals and run about a bit instead. That's not to say the level of hype is justified, but I'm glad that as a nation we're starting to get excited about players like Wilshere, Crowley, McEachran, Morrison etc. and not the same-old athletic types.
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The biggest problem England have had over the past 15 years is player intelligence. We've had some really thick planks, no idea about discipline or how to react to pressure.
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The progress of young players is something you can never bet on. Amount of times you hear about players who were the bees knees at 16 and fail, while the hard-working plodder who everyone thought was average develops into a premiership player, mainly due to attitude and realising he's not as good as the star man who doesn't have to practice. Good luck to him, he could be playing for England in 5 years time or Barnet. Only galling thing is if he does make it, everyone will praise Arsenal's youth set-up as though he had two left-feet before he joined them.
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The sorts of changes that Spain made 20 years ago and Germany made 10 years ago are the sorts of changes that England are making now. If anything I think it's testament to the changing attitudes in this country that players like Wilshere get the attention they do. In days gone by a diminutive, left-footed technical player like him would likely have been stuck out wide and forgotten about, and we'd have been harping on about Cleverley and Henderson because they score goals and run about a bit instead. That's not to say the level of hype is justified, but I'm glad that as a nation we're starting to get excited about players like Wilshere, Crowley, McEachran, Morrison etc. and not the same-old athletic types.
Leave Bannan out of this, please! :D
I tend to agree with your point though.
My son is currently taking his UEFA 'B' licence coaching badge. He's 21 and hopes to have his Pro licence by the age of thirty. There are 23-24 people on his current course (one of whom is Super Tommy Johnson) and there are several courses running.
The point I'm making is that the FA are belatedly making more efforts to get qualified coaches out there; which is good (Spain had 10x the number of coaches qualified UEFA 'B' or better than England when I last saw the stats a few years' ago). Less good is the fact that the junior game here still prioritises results over performance, which encourages the wrong behaviours.
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the fuss over this kid or the fuss over the likes of Wilshere is what annoys the piss out of me about England. Is Wilshere a good player? Yes. Is he world class? Not even fucking close. We go on about these players as if they are the next saviour. Well they are not. We bleat on about them because they are players that come along once in a while and are better than the other dross our system produces. The Germans, Spanish, French, Italians, Brazilians etc produce numerous players of Wilshere's quality and several that are much better which is why consistently they are better than England at the national level. As a nation we get so wrapped up in our own league and sense of self worth that we fail to see the damage we have done to ourselves.
At some point in time in the past 20-30 yrs England had a better national program and team than France, Germany and Spain as examples. Yet each of those nations in that time, identify the issues that held them back, were able to change what they did domestically that not only enhanced their own leagues, but created a steady stream of young players that would excel on the world stage. It remains shameful that a nation of 50m+, with one of the most profitable and lucrative domestic leagues on the planet should ever struggle to beat the likes Montenegro or Poland. Yet, we miss the forest for the trees, generation after generation. Instead of heralding Rooney or Gerrard as the best thing since sliced bread we should be creating many, many more of them, and not accepting them as a bar that is set once in a while. Instead that should be the minimum standard and it isn't. So we keep telling the world how great we are as a nation, and wonder why at the end of every tournament we never advance past the last 16 or 8, provided we even get there.
That's exactly it. I can only add that if the player is even marginally handsome and or has a girlfriend who is marginally attractive then that player's worth will be that much more. Filling columns in tabloids is as important as anything that is done on the pitch.
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I can only add that if the player is even marginally handsome and or has a girlfriend who is marginally attractive then that player's worth will be that much more. Filling columns in tabloids is as important as anything that is done on the pitch.
To be fair I think that kind of palava has been frowned upon since the infamous WAGS World cup of 2006. Not that it did our lot much good in 2010.
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I can only add that if the player is even marginally handsome and or has a girlfriend who is marginally attractive then that player's worth will be that much more. Filling columns in tabloids is as important as anything that is done on the pitch.
To be fair I think that kind of palava has been frowned upon since the infamous WAGS World cup of 2006. Not that it did our lot much good in 2010.
Look at the palava over Beckham.
For me, he was about as talented as Andy Sinton, and I doubt remember the media revelling in a week of blanket coverage upon his retirement.
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I can only add that if the player is even marginally handsome and or has a girlfriend who is marginally attractive then that player's worth will be that much more. Filling columns in tabloids is as important as anything that is done on the pitch.
To be fair I think that kind of palava has been frowned upon since the infamous WAGS World cup of 2006. Not that it did our lot much good in 2010.
Look at the palava over Beckham.
I think Beckham's a bit of a one off in this regard. To be fair to him he had the good sense to turn it all into "brand Beckham" and he's set up for life now. And he seems to be a nice bloke so fair play to him.
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Less good is the fact that the junior game here still prioritises results over performance, which encourages the wrong behaviours.
Things are being changed in that regard too though, slowly but surely. With the EPPP coming in, the younger age groups now all play small sided games on smaller pitches which means more touches for the players, and it also stops the athletes from dominating like they do on a full size pitch. League tables have also been abolished for U11 and below.
U7's & U8's - 5v5
U9's & U10's - 7v7
U11's & U12's - 9v9
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I think Beckham's a bit of a one off in this regard. To be fair to him he had the good sense to turn it all into "brand Beckham" and he's set up for life now. And he seems to be a nice bloke so fair play to him.
No good sense from David at all. It was marrying a supposed singer who was being managed by Fuller and Cowell that created Brand Beckham. Don't forget Cowell renamed Opportunity Knocks and turned that into a world wide institution earning himself and his hangers on multiple millions. So it was easy enough to shove a footballer who already playing for the most famous club in the world, (after us) into the limelight and advertising.
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I tend to agree with your point though.
My son is currently taking his UEFA 'B' licence coaching badge. He's 21 and hopes to have his Pro licence by the age of thirty. There are 23-24 people on his current course (one of whom is Super Tommy Johnson) and there are several courses running.
Wasn't Joey Barton supposedly starting (or even passing) his UEFA 'B' badge? You can imagine his training regime. Cigars in the eyes if they misbehave and white kids only should apply unless the non whites can play with a broken jaw.
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Less good is the fact that the junior game here still prioritises results over performance, which encourages the wrong behaviours.
Things are being changed in that regard too though, slowly but surely. With the EPPP coming in, the younger age groups now all play small sided games on smaller pitches which means more touches for the players, and it also stops the athletes from dominating like they do on a full size pitch. League tables have also been abolished for U11 and below.
U7's & U8's - 5v5
U9's & U10's - 7v7
U11's & U12's - 9v9
I think there are problems at the younger age groups which need to be addressed, but all that coaching goes out of the window when kids join a professional club whose manager doesn't want players "fannying" on the ball and wants the ball played forward as quickly as possible.
I also don't think enough is done with the younger "elite" level players in this country. The top players join a club at 16 and then as they progress through the ranks, they might meet up with the national team a few times a year for games. They are the ones that really should be worked with, so by the time they reach the full squad, they are ready for international football. Identify "elite" young players and implement a system that prepare them better. Different sport, but the ECB have done a decent job in doing that in cricket. Again though I can see problems with players going back to clubs and being accused of being "Billy Big Bollocks" because they might try something different.
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Identify "elite" young players and implement a system that prepare them better.
So what does the elite training centre that the FA have set up do if it doesn't do that?
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As I said before, for every player we lose, we poach many more. This is from a couple of weeks ago.
CORNISH footballer Liam Prynn will complete a dream move to Premier Division Aston Villa this summer after a ‘compensation package’ was agreed with Torquay United.
The 16-year-old, from Constantine, will put pen to paper on a two-year scholarship on July 5, before he turns professional in 2015 after agreeing a one-year contract.
It is rare for players of this age to be offered pro terms so soon, but Villa officials have been so impressed they were keen to tie the young Cornishman down, with several other top flight clubs keen to sign him.
Prynn, who goes to Penryn Sports College, was in the West Midlands with his family at the weekend to discuss his move to Villa Park after the Villains reached a financial agreement with League Two Torquay, the club the teenager has been at since the age of 13.
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As I said before, for every player we lose, we poach many more. This is from a couple of weeks ago.
CORNISH footballer Liam Prynn will complete a dream move to Premier Division Aston Villa this summer after a ‘compensation package’ was agreed with Torquay United.
The 16-year-old, from Constantine, will put pen to paper on a two-year scholarship on July 5, before he turns professional in 2015 after agreeing a one-year contract.
It is rare for players of this age to be offered pro terms so soon, but Villa officials have been so impressed they were keen to tie the young Cornishman down, with several other top flight clubs keen to sign him.
Prynn, who goes to Penryn Sports College, was in the West Midlands with his family at the weekend to discuss his move to Villa Park after the Villains reached a financial agreement with League Two Torquay, the club the teenager has been at since the age of 13.
I'm going to check if the Torquay mob are demanding the club put a statement up on the website. Selling club, no ambition etc etc
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As I said before, for every player we lose, we poach many more. This is from a couple of weeks ago.
CORNISH footballer Liam Prynn will complete a dream move to Premier Division Aston Villa this summer after a ‘compensation package’ was agreed with Torquay United.
The 16-year-old, from Constantine, will put pen to paper on a two-year scholarship on July 5, before he turns professional in 2015 after agreeing a one-year contract.
It is rare for players of this age to be offered pro terms so soon, but Villa officials have been so impressed they were keen to tie the young Cornishman down, with several other top flight clubs keen to sign him.
Prynn, who goes to Penryn Sports College, was in the West Midlands with his family at the weekend to discuss his move to Villa Park after the Villains reached a financial agreement with League Two Torquay, the club the teenager has been at since the age of 13.
I'm going to check if the Torquay mob are demanding the club put a statement up on the website. Selling club, no ambition etc etc
I think it shows how far they've sunk.
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Identify "elite" young players and implement a system that prepare them better.
So what does the elite training centre that the FA have set up do if it doesn't do that?
It's not a training campus, it was never meant to be, this misconception is just the result of lazy journalism. St George's Park is where the national teams will train, but more than anything it's about coach education. It's where the FA intends to start pumping out high quality coaches that know how to teach youngsters to play the game properly. There's all sorts of other stuff with sports science and coach lectures and what not, but an academy set up it is not.
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Identify "elite" young players and implement a system that prepare them better.
So what does the elite training centre that the FA have set up do if it doesn't do that?
It's not a training campus, it was never meant to be, this misconception is just the result of lazy journalism. St George's Park is where the national teams will train, but more than anything it's about coach education. It's where the FA intends to start pumping out high quality coaches that know how to teach youngsters to play the game properly. There's all sorts of other stuff with sports science and coach lectures and what not, but an academy set up it is not.
Yep.
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Im wondering how many of these young players who move at development stage actually go on to fulfil potential. John bostock palace wonder kid who at 15 was transfered to spurs has recently been released. Never til now at least made any great progress. Sometimes young players and advisors need to hold with were they are and naturally and gradually develop.
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I think if you're a hot prospect at Torquay aged 16, each party knows the likelihood is you'll be gone before you become an adult.
Villa and Arsenal are far closer in stature. While the Gooners are undeniably bigger and more successful, our reputation of giving youth its head would count for something you'd imagine. But Crowley will have the confidence and ambition to make a success of himself there so I guess you can't chide him for it.
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Im wondering how many of these young players who move at development stage actually go on to fulfil potential. John bostock palace wonder kid who at 15 was transfered to spurs has recently been released. Never til now at least made any great progress. Sometimes young players and advisors need to hold with were they are and naturally and gradually develop.
Bostock is the go-to example that everyone uses because there aren't that many obvious other ones. Honestly I think it has more to do with dedication than anything else. For every Bostock there is a Raheem Sterling and vice versa, ultimately it's down to the kids to keep working hard to make their dream career a reality. I'm confident that Crowley has the talent to make it, whether he has the attitude remains to be seen.
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Im wondering how many of these young players who move at development stage actually go on to fulfil potential. John bostock palace wonder kid who at 15 was transfered to spurs has recently been released. Never til now at least made any great progress. Sometimes young players and advisors need to hold with were they are and naturally and gradually develop.
Bostock is the go-to example that everyone uses because there aren't that many obvious other ones. Honestly I think it has more to do with dedication than anything else. For every Bostock there is a Raheem Sterling and vice versa, ultimately it's down to the kids to keep working hard to make their dream career a reality. I'm confident that Crowley has the talent to make it, whether he has the attitude remains to be seen.
Well, that is often what is said of Tim Henman in the tennis world: never the best of his cohort but the one most dedicated to the training and the tennis-circuit regime. He's made a £12-15m career out of it, so can't be bad.
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Wheres he gone anyway?
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5 Under 21 players to watch this season...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2387723/U21-Premier-League-preview--players-watch.html
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5 Under 21 players to watch this season...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2387723/U21-Premier-League-preview--players-watch.html
So effectively 2 of the best 5 youngsters in the league are from our academy, I'll take that.
For what it's worth I agree with them on Grealish getting around the first team this season, I suspect we'll see him on loan to a championship side soon, get a bit of first team football elsewhere and then ome back and push for the main squad, if he does well.
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Gone on loan to Oxford United for the whole season! He's now 18 and wondering how he 'll progress. He hasn't been championship level yet Oxford are league one and was at Barnsley last season. I think would have been good to have him back at villa
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Gone on loan to Oxford United for the whole season! He's now 18 and wondering how he 'll progress. He hasn't been championship level yet Oxford are league one and was at Barnsley last season. I think would have been good to have him back at villa
Did I imagine it, or was his loan cut short because he couldn't get into League 1 Barnsley's team?
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Dan Crowley. What goes on in his head?
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Can't comment since I don't know him. But right now more than ever we can't afford to lose any good prospects. With a bit of luck if he makes something of his self we will get some decent money for him later on.
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With a bit of luck if he makes something of his self we will get some decent money for him later on.
Why would we get any more money for him, whatever happens in his future?
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With a bit of luck if he makes something of his self we will get some decent money for him later on.
Why would we get any more money for him, whatever happens in his future?
Because GB thinks Crowley plays for us even though he admits he doesn't know him!
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He was brought up at villa and stolen by arsenal is imagine he's be near first team if he had stayed
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With a bit of luck if he makes something of his self we will get some decent money for him later on.
Why would we get any more money for him, whatever happens in his future?
Because its not uncommon for a club to recieve money later on for such a player like when the player makes a certain amount of appearances for the other club. Didn't Brighton get some money for Gareth Barry when he later became a success for us? It depends on the deal between the two clubs?
With a bit of luck if he makes something of his self we will get some decent money for him later on.
Why would we get any more money for him, whatever happens in his future?
Because GB thinks Crowley plays for us even though he admits he doesn't know him!
So whats your point? Itv seems like no one in this thread knows of him.
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He left three years ago.
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The only money we paid for Barry was a compensation fee to cover Brighton's costs in training him, judged by a tribunal to be £1 million. Nothing to do with how many appearances he made.
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IIRC the tribunal deal with Barry and Standing was we would pay extra if they played for England etc, it could reach something like £2m for both of them, as Standing didn't do much no idea what we ended up paying Brighton in total. I know we weren't happy when Crowley left, we got something crap like £200K for him, which considering we'd developed him for 8 or 9 years and he was so highly rated is shite.
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Dan Crowley? It's symbolic of course.
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He's become something of an occult figure.
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Thanks, but if he left three years ago then why are we still talking about him now? ;)
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It's polemically sent.
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I want to know what you ment
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Another case of its got to his head ! Dan Crowley has alot going for him and when growing up at villa big bug things expected. Now he had his season long loan end early by Oxford utd. Even though at times he excelled and shows some talent Appleton didn't like attitude off and on pitch and left out last 3 matches. Unfortunately it seems another young english at a premier league club who is struggling to embrace a proffesionalism needed to match his potential. Southgate is right about changing mentality of players. Hopefully Grealish Realise the penny has dropped. Crowley after getting big move away from villa at the moment is currently failing and not flying. Two failed loans at league one clubs and a damming assessment from Oxford utd manager :
Appleton has said this;:
"There are a couple of issues I want to make sure are addressed in terms of what he does on and off the field.
“He’s a 19-year-old lad who has fantastic ability, but his professionalism at times lets him down.
“He’s had a few issues at Arsenal and Barnsley previously. It’s all a massive learning curve for him.
“Ultimately sometimes when people step out of line you have to put them in their place."
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Sounds like a bellend. Hopefully he'll turn out to be shite.