Lambert in or out? Poll reset with majority 'in', 7th May

[KevinGage]

10/10 for the manager from me.

I think he's done a fantastic job, he's rolled three season's worth of work out in one.

That I don't see.

He inherited a decent squad (albeit one with significant gaps) and had £23 million to spend on top of that - more than the likes of Everton, Newcastle and Sunderland spent. And clearly more than the Olbiyun, Swansea and Naarwich.

Yet for all that we are one place higher than last year, and -like last season- were only assured of staying up with one game to spare.

7/10 for me (for entertainment value, as much as anything else in the last third of the campaign).   10/10 would have been European qualification or a cup win, ie exceeding most reasonable pre season expectations.  Has he really done that this campaign?

I'm not sure many would agree with you that he inherited a decent squad and certainly the evidence of results in second half of last season point to a squad that was possibly the worst in the league.  Added to that he lost Dunne for the whole season.

McPish got the bullet, did he not?

Indicating that the powers that be (like most Villa fans) believed that by finishing 16th, he underperformed with the tools at his disposal last term. 

Managers generally don't get the boot for delivering parity. 

That being the case, how can Lambert have been such a 10/10 revelation to deliver one place higher, with an extra spend of £23 million?   Makes no sense.

And yes, outside of the top 4/5, any manager inheriting a squad with the likes of Bent, Given, Dunne, Ireland, N Zog, Gabby, Delph and Albrighton might view that as one of the better squads in the division. That was the pool of talent available to him on taking the job, even if -as we now know- Dunne wouldn't feature for the entire campaign.   All of them (apart from Delph) have been amongst the better performers in the top flight at some stage in their careers (admittedly not always with us).

Dunne and Stan clearly left big gaps in the side, but money was available to offset that loss.

[ozzjim]

There were much bigger issues though. Ireland, despite somehow getting the player of the year award last season, had looked way below standard since arriving. Given is not the keeper he is lauded to be as nice a bloke as he appears, NZogbia blows hot and cold and has always been in sides down the bottom, Delph had been injured almost exclusively since arriving, Gabby got injured straight away almost and Albrighton was on the back of a very poor 2nd season.

More importantly, Dunne and Stan were 2 of the stand out performers last season, and the 2 that gave the experience and leadership. As such with them gone, and us all saying we needed 7 or 8 new players, how was he to do that with 23 million.

I would give him 7 out of 10 too for his first season actually, but I think he inherited a pigs ear of a squad, and has done pretty well second half of the season. I think he has done miraculously in the transfer market, and also in bringing on the likes of Delph and Weimann.

[PeterWithesShin]

We could have finished 12th and McLeish would still have been sacked. It wasn't just league position that was undoing, more his really really shit standard of football.

As for the players, Ireland 6 good months in his career, Albrighton 4 good months. Delph, written off by many on here, including getting called worst player to ever play for us, Gabby, 1 goal in 6 months when Lambert took over. Dunne at his age was never going to be reliable. Zog poor 12 months. Bent and Given are the only ones in the decent camp from that list, and both of those have been replaced for a max of £7.5 million and a fraction of the wages.

For such a decent squad the amount of other clubs interested in any of them in the summer was pretty much zero.

[KevinGage]

We could have finished 12th and McLeish would still have been sacked. It wasn't just league position that was undoing, more his really really shit standard of football.

As for the players, Ireland 6 good months in his career, Albrighton 4 good months. Delph, written off by many on here, including getting called worst player to ever play for us, Gabby, 1 goal in 6 months when Lambert took over. Dunne at his age was never going to be reliable. Zog poor 12 months. Bent and Given are the only ones in the decent camp from that list, and both of those have been replaced for a max of £7.5 million and a fraction of the wages.

For such a decent squad the amount of other clubs interested in any of them in the summer was pretty much zero.

Just out of interest, how do you know for certain that other clubs weren't interested in them?  We like to play our cards close to our chest, and not all opposition clubs take the Dave Whelan or FSW approach to transfer negotiations. Maybe -weirdly- we wanted to give the new manager a chance to fully assess the squad he inherited?

As for Ireland, he's clearly a headcase, but having won two Player of the Year awards, he's probably had a bit more than six good months in his career.

[ozzjim]

We could have finished 12th and McLeish would still have been sacked. It wasn't just league position that was undoing, more his really really shit standard of football.

As for the players, Ireland 6 good months in his career, Albrighton 4 good months. Delph, written off by many on here, including getting called worst player to ever play for us, Gabby, 1 goal in 6 months when Lambert took over. Dunne at his age was never going to be reliable. Zog poor 12 months. Bent and Given are the only ones in the decent camp from that list, and both of those have been replaced for a max of £7.5 million and a fraction of the wages.

For such a decent squad the amount of other clubs interested in any of them in the summer was pretty much zero.

Just out of interest, how do you know for certain that other clubs weren't interested in them?  We like to play our cards close to our chest, and not all opposition clubs take the Dave Whelan or FSW approach to transfer negotiations. Maybe -weirdly- we wanted to give the new manager a chance to fully assess the squad he inherited?

As for Ireland, he's clearly a headcase, but having won two Player of the Year awards, he's probably had a bit more than six good months in his career.

Being our player of the year last year was not something to shout about.

[PeterWithesShin]

I don't, it's an assumption based on there hasn't even been the smallest hint of rumours to any of them.

It was a joke he won last year, but he was hardly fighting off much competition either. He's had one consistent run of good form for about 6 months at City in 08/09. The fact he hasn't come close to producing that before or since suggests that he probably hasn't.

[tomd2103]

I don't, it's an assumption based on there hasn't even been the smallest hint of rumours to any of them.

It was a joke he won last year, but he was hardly fighting off much competition either. He's had one consistent run of good form for about 6 months at City in 08/09. The fact he hasn't come close to producing that before or since suggests that he probably hasn't.

Didn't he win it because it was based on the number of Man of the Match marks players received from fans on a website during that season?   

[KevinGage]

Gabby was linked with Sunderland, Ireland and Given were linked with QPR and Delph was linked with a return to Leeds IIRC. Those are the links that made print, it's quite possible that there were offers we didn't hear about.

I would have actually opted for Given as Player of the Year last season, but -as far as outfield players go- Ireland did make a decent contribution when he returned in the second half of the campaign.  More 6/10 or 7/10  rather than consistently brilliant match winning performances, but measured against the rest of our outfield lot, that was probably enough. 

It looked like he had something to build on this campaign, and most of us looked forward to him making the next leap - adding goals and assists.  He looked OK up until the Wigan match at home this season, and has barely featured since. If he was one of the players we brought in on minimal wages, he might be worth persisting with.  But at 60k + per week, we need more.

He was never Nigel Callaghan or Bosko Balaban bad though, despite his pantomime villain status around here.

[PeterWithesShin]

I don't, it's an assumption based on there hasn't even been the smallest hint of rumours to any of them.

It was a joke he won last year, but he was hardly fighting off much competition either. He's had one consistent run of good form for about 6 months at City in 08/09. The fact he hasn't come close to producing that before or since suggests that he probably hasn't.

Didn't he win it because it was based on the number of Man of the Match marks players received from fans on a website during that season?   

Yep, Villa Lions I think it is. It's the same system every season for the Terrace Trophy.

[neo_Villan]

We could have finished 12th and McLeish would still have been sacked. It wasn't just league position that was undoing, more his really really shit standard of football.

This. Not to mention the fact that he proved he couldn't be trusted with any more money to improve the team given the signings he did make.

[PeterWithesShin]

Gabby was linked with Sunderland, Ireland and Given were linked with QPR and Delph was linked with a return to Leeds IIRC. Those are the links that made print, it's quite possible that there were offers we didn't hear about.

I would have actually opted for Given as Player of the Year last season, but -as far as outfield players go- Ireland did make a decent contribution when he returned in the second half of the campaign.  More 6/10 or 7/10  rather than consistently brilliant match winning performances, but measured against the rest of our outfield lot, that was probably enough. 

It looked like he had something to build on this campaign, and most of us looked forward to him making the next leap - adding goals and assists.  He looked OK up until the Wigan match at home this season, and has barely featured since. If he was one of the players we brought in on minimal wages, he might be worth persisting with.  But at 60k + per week, we need more.

He was never Nigel Callaghan or Bosko Balaban bad though, despite his pantomime villain status around here.

Those links though (which I had forgotten, apologies) show how low our players were held. Ex manager going for an old player, 2 at a side expected to be down the bottom, and a Championship side looking at taking back an ex player. Not really suitors for players with good prospects or who are on form. Not in my opinion anyway.

I don't have a problem with Ireland winning per se, as the competition was pretty much non existent. Although as an outfield player i'd have gone for Herd, purely based on he was just about the only outfield player who played to anything like he best ability, as limited as that may be.
My issue with Ireland is that for a player who obviously has talent i'm struggling to think of half a dozen 'great' games he's had. He's had a decent number of okay ones over the last 18 months or so, but to me he has already been overtaken by Westwood, a lad who was at Crewe a year ago.

The original point was it was a decent squad, I don't think it was when you look at it in depth. Some decent players on paper yes, but too many were either woefully out of form or heading towards the tail end of their careers.

The size of the overhaul is that our strongest 11 probably contains only 4 players who were here when Lambert arrived. Before he had arrived three of them had a combined total of less than 50 appearances, with a fair few of those as subs. And Gabby.

[KevinGage]

How quickly we forget. 

I think it's highly unlikely he'd have got the bullet for finishing 12th.

When we occupied that position earlier in the season, the vast majority of fans were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. That We Don't Want McLeish site and some of our more extreme posters on here were lampooned. 

He did get stick at Wigan away, true.  But it was only during our winless run post March that the tide turned, and the McLeish Out brigade became the majority -when we looked in very real danger of going down.

[Toronto Villa]

Plus with any link there's inevitably a decent dose of salt that comes with it. Would Gabby have ever been linked with Sunderland had MON not been manager? It just seems with most links it doesn't take much more than the most tenuous of associations.

[PeterWithesShin]

How quickly we forget. 

I think it's highly unlikely he'd have got the bullet for finishing 12th.

When we occupied that position earlier in the season, the vast majority of fans were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. That We Don't Want McLeish site and some of our more extreme posters on here were lampooned. 

He did get stick at Wigan away, true.  But it was only during our winless run post March that the tide turned, and the McLeish Out brigade became the majority -when we looked in very real danger of going down.

The majority of us were prepared to give him time because it was early in the season. As the season went on the football got worse, so even those of us who wanted him to succeed found it harder and harder to defend him and stand by him. It also gave more ammunition to those who mainly cared where he came from.
Simply, he was never accepted, for whatever reason, and that coupled with the truly abysmal football is why I think he'd have gone even if he'd finished 12th. Was his name EVER sung in a positive way? I was at pretty much every home game and can't remember it happening.

[KevinGage]

The original point was it was a decent squad, I don't think it was when you look at it in depth. Some decent players on paper yes, but too many were either woefully out of form or heading towards the tail end of their careers.

See, to me, decent means just that.   

Not great. Not even good, necessarily.

But when measured against most of the sides outside of the top 4/5, equally as good as (and in many cases better) than the rest.   

Or were we inferior to Wigan, Southampton, Reading, Norwich, Swansea, WBA, West Ham, Stoke and Sunderland?