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Author Topic: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley  (Read 231968 times)

Offline in exile

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #660 on: September 24, 2015, 12:01:02 PM »
You tell me
I would guess not. A manager might pick a player because he feels that he is better at following his instructions over a better player who doesn't.

Is that any different to having 'favourites'?
In my eyes yes.
Are you telling me that when Bacuna plays at right back it's because Sherwood feels he can follow instructions better than Hutton or Richards?

Presumably either that or that he just thinks that Bacuna gives the team more in that position than Hutton.

If it were neither of those two things, what else would there be that makes him a 'favourite'?
Look at it from my side. Bacuna is not and never will be a right back, so I believe that Sherwood maybe prefers his character than that of his alternative. He maybe a yes man, arse licker, call it what you wish and that suits the manager

Offline brian green

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #661 on: September 24, 2015, 12:02:25 PM »
I think all managers have and are entitled to have preferences. Personal feelings should not enter into it. I liked Alex McLeish but it does not prevent me from saying that he should never have been allowed within a million miles of being our manager.

Online Dave

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #662 on: September 24, 2015, 12:04:46 PM »
You tell me
I would guess not. A manager might pick a player because he feels that he is better at following his instructions over a better player who doesn't.

Is that any different to having 'favourites'?
In my eyes yes.
Are you telling me that when Bacuna plays at right back it's because Sherwood feels he can follow instructions better than Hutton or Richards?

Presumably either that or that he just thinks that Bacuna gives the team more in that position than Hutton.

If it were neither of those two things, what else would there be that makes him a 'favourite'?
Look at it from my side. Bacuna is not and never will be a right back, so I believe that Sherwood maybe prefers his character than that of his alternative. He maybe a yes man, arse licker, call it what you wish and that suits the manager

So you're suggesting that the manager believes that Hutton is the better right back AND also better at following the instructions that the coaching staff give him on the pitch, yet in spite of this plays Bacuna in that position just because he thinks he's a nicer bloke?

I'm far from Sherwood's biggest fan, but that strikes me as pretty unlikely.

Offline in exile

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #663 on: September 24, 2015, 12:08:19 PM »
What I am saying is that in my opinion Bacuna is a yes man to Sherwood and that it goes a long way with the manager.
For the record, I think Richards would be better suited in the position of right back over anyone else
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 12:10:50 PM by in exile »

Online Dave

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #664 on: September 24, 2015, 12:16:29 PM »
What I am saying is that in my opinion Bacuna is a yes man to Sherwood and that it goes a long way with the manager.

In what sense? Doing what he's told and following instructions? Well, that's precisely what I said originally.

What other things are you suggesting that he is saying "yes" to?

Offline in exile

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #665 on: September 24, 2015, 12:23:38 PM »
What I am saying is that in my opinion Bacuna is a yes man to Sherwood and that it goes a long way with the manager.

In what sense? Doing what he's told and following instructions? Well, that's precisely what I said originally.

What other things are you suggesting that he is saying "yes" to?
Maybe I should say that because of his personality he gets on with the manager better.

Offline IAmTheOneIanOlney

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #666 on: September 24, 2015, 12:27:02 PM »
For the record, I think Richards would be better suited in the position of right back over anyone else

Richards has been pretty much brilliant so far at centre back, though. Right back is a problem, I worry every time Bacuna gets the ball in our half. Maybe Okore could play there when he's fit.

On topic, I like Westwood and don't think he should get stick for being a tidy player who retains possession.

Online LeeB

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #667 on: September 24, 2015, 12:38:58 PM »
What I am saying is that in my opinion Bacuna is a yes man to Sherwood and that it goes a long way with the manager.

In what sense? Doing what he's told and following instructions? Well, that's precisely what I said originally.

What other things are you suggesting that he is saying "yes" to?
Maybe I should say that because of his personality he gets on with the manager better.


I find your position hard to believe.

It used to do my head in when I was running a team that the nicest lads were usually the shittest, but as much as I'd prefer to start with them you don't because you want to win. And there's nothing like my career on line.

I think we've all thought of managers like that before, but I don't think it really stands up to scrutiny.

Offline KRS

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #668 on: September 24, 2015, 01:11:07 PM »
The Bacuna vs Hutton preferential treatment debate doesn't hold any water at all as TS has switched between them regularly this season.

Online Clampy

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #669 on: September 24, 2015, 01:17:14 PM »
You tell me
I would guess not. A manager might pick a player because he feels that he is better at following his instructions over a better player who doesn't.

Is that any different to having 'favourites'?
In my eyes yes.
Are you telling me that when Bacuna plays at right back it's because Sherwood feels he can follow instructions better than Hutton or Richards?

Presumably either that or that he just thinks that Bacuna gives the team more in that position than Hutton.

If it were neither of those two things, what else would there be that makes him a 'favourite'?
Look at it from my side. Bacuna is not and never will be a right back, so I believe that Sherwood maybe prefers his character than that of his alternative. He maybe a yes man, arse licker, call it what you wish and that suits the manager

I'm sorry, but that's just rubbish.  Some manager's just like certain players, it happens. It's probably why he wanted to work with Adebayor again.

Offline oldhill_avfc

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #670 on: September 24, 2015, 01:18:21 PM »
For all his inconsistencies and faults, Bacuna is a far better attacking/creative threat than Hutton.  Sherwood thinks we more of an attacking threat with Bacuna and that's why he played him at the end of last season (and presumably this).

Offline ktvillan

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #671 on: September 24, 2015, 02:17:47 PM »
I confess to be somewhat old fashioned and therefore a little unimpressed when people praise Westwood by saying things like he keeps the ball moving, and he keeps play ticking over.  I've no real idea what keeping play ticking over means, or why it is supposedly a good thing.  Or why keeping the ball moving is something to be admired.  I'd prefer a player held on to it rather than keep it moving in the general direction of the opposition, as Westwood all too frequently does.  I'd rather have a player who can put a foot in to win the ball, keep hold of it when he needs to, play the right pass at the right time, play an occasional killer pass, get some goals and assists, take a decent set piece, get forward and back quickly and effectively, and impose himself on the game and the opposition especially when we're under pressure.  The kind of things that unfortunately Westwood regularly demonstrates he's not very good at.  I just don't think he's particularly good I guess, but then I didn't rate Petrov much either.

You don't understand why keeping the ball moving is something to be admired?

Not every pass can be a killer pass but keeping possession until that opportunity arises is a fundamental part of the game - the water carrier as Cantona described them - and essential to any team. The wrong player in that role results in things like over ambitious passes or dribbles in your own half. There are obviously better players at it than Westwood (then again you could say that for all of our squad) but not to have anyone playing the role because you don't understand it is a dangerous game to play. I think Sherwood likes him because it is the role he used to do himself.

Isn't football all about moving a football around?  It is not something that strikes me as particularly valuable in itself, it has to be moved with purpose.  I fully understand that at times that purpose may be to shift around the opposition to open up a gap when they are sitting deep,  but at other times there will be the opportunity to do a whole lot more .  At those times, your basic water carrier type can become a liability unless he has something else to offer.  And in Westwood's case he too often drops his bucket by playing it straight at an opponent or getting hustled off the ball way too easily.   As for being essential to any team , is that really the case?   Do top teams have players whose main talent is that they keep the ball moving?  You might point to the likes of Xavi and Iniesta in the successful tika taka teams of Spain and Barcelona, but they were also capable of a lot more besides when the time was right.   


Offline passitsideways

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #672 on: September 24, 2015, 02:45:41 PM »
I confess to be somewhat old fashioned and therefore a little unimpressed when people praise Westwood by saying things like he keeps the ball moving, and he keeps play ticking over.  I've no real idea what keeping play ticking over means, or why it is supposedly a good thing.  Or why keeping the ball moving is something to be admired.  I'd prefer a player held on to it rather than keep it moving in the general direction of the opposition, as Westwood all too frequently does.  I'd rather have a player who can put a foot in to win the ball, keep hold of it when he needs to, play the right pass at the right time, play an occasional killer pass, get some goals and assists, take a decent set piece, get forward and back quickly and effectively, and impose himself on the game and the opposition especially when we're under pressure.  The kind of things that unfortunately Westwood regularly demonstrates he's not very good at.  I just don't think he's particularly good I guess, but then I didn't rate Petrov much either.

You don't understand why keeping the ball moving is something to be admired?

Not every pass can be a killer pass but keeping possession until that opportunity arises is a fundamental part of the game - the water carrier as Cantona described them - and essential to any team. The wrong player in that role results in things like over ambitious passes or dribbles in your own half. There are obviously better players at it than Westwood (then again you could say that for all of our squad) but not to have anyone playing the role because you don't understand it is a dangerous game to play. I think Sherwood likes him because it is the role he used to do himself.

Isn't football all about moving a football around?  It is not something that strikes me as particularly valuable in itself, it has to be moved with purpose.  I fully understand that at times that purpose may be to shift around the opposition to open up a gap when they are sitting deep,  but at other times there will be the opportunity to do a whole lot more .  At those times, your basic water carrier type can become a liability unless he has something else to offer.  And in Westwood's case he too often drops his bucket by playing it straight at an opponent or getting hustled off the ball way too easily.   As for being essential to any team , is that really the case?   Do top teams have players whose main talent is that they keep the ball moving?  You might point to the likes of Xavi and Iniesta in the successful tika taka teams of Spain and Barcelona, but they were also capable of a lot more besides when the time was right.

For a long time, that's basically what Michael Carrick did, which was pass the ball to Scholes and be available for a return pass when nothing was on, and many people slagged the shit out of him until eventually they realised that there had to be something handy about a player who was started every game by probably the most successful manager of all time, in what probably was his greatest side. Sure, Carrick is better defensively because he doesn't get shrugged off the ball as easily and he reads the game better, but he serves the same fundamental purpose as Westwood does, although he does it better because he can make those passes to feet to players who find space between midfield and defence. You could say the same about Busquets. Arsenal used to have Arteta to do basically the same thing before his legs went, and Wenger considered him important enough to make him captain. I mean, look at this Youtube video:
(well, just a couple of minutes is fine), and tell me if there's anything there that Westwood would definitely be incapable of managing (apart from the decent corners).

I agree that Westwood has to offer more on the whole, but there is specific skill involved in being able to find space to get on the ball in midfield, and move it around. As for "moving with purpose", that's more of the job of the attackers you have. The top-class midfielders can create from deep, but for the rest it's about getting the ball to the attackers in reasonable positions (not necessarily goalscoring opportunities) and Westwood does that bit fine. We're just not quite good enough as a team to carry a specialist like him.

Online Mister E

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #673 on: September 24, 2015, 02:55:14 PM »
When Sven G-E was England manager he was asked why he never picked Gazza Bazza: he answered "I just don't like him".
Barry went on to win dozens of caps, later.

Why was TSM so fixated on buying NZog? - he'd hardly been a consistent performer, yet TSM tried to buy him at the Sty and then immediately did so when at our place.

Managers convince themselves about the pros and cons of certain players, almost without rationale.

Offline aj2k77

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Re: Ashley Westwood
« Reply #674 on: September 24, 2015, 03:48:41 PM »
RE Carrick and Westwood, Carrick's range of passing was/is on a complete different level to Westwood's.

 


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