Safe standing - update

[KRS]

I dont understand why 10 ppl have voted against this. Bizarre.

edit: Just read that article...

Commentary by Margaret Aspinall chairwoman of the Hillsborough Families Support Group

There is no place for standing in modern football and I cannot comprehend why people want to go back to how it was in the 1980s.

It is both insulting and insensitive to suggest that it is a good idea, particularly knowing there has never been any accountability for what happened at Hillsborough in April 1989.

I have had the argument about what happens in Germany thrown at me before, when people have raised the idea about bringing back standing in England.

Well, what people in another country do is their own affair.

We have had two tragedies at grounds with standing terraces in Great Britain - 96 football fans never returned home from Hillsborough, 66 lives were lost at Ibrox.

When I talk about never bringing standing back to football grounds here, I am thinking about my children and grandchildren going to games.

They should never be put in a position of how it was in the 1980s.

With all due respect to those that lost their lives (and their friends and families) in those disasters, Margaret Aspinall clearly hasnt got a clue what shes talking about if she thinks an introduction of "safe standing" would be in anyway a throw back to the 1980s. It is neither insulting nor insensitive to think such measures would be a good idea, and the fact that it has been proved to be safe and successful in other countries is valid proof that it can work in modern society and modern day football.

I sincerely hope groups or individuals do not campaign against the scheme on the basis of what has happened in completely different situations in the past.

[Olneythelonely]

She's clearly talking bollocks.

It's like banning all cruises because of what happened in Italy and on the Titanic. Well not exactly like that, but you get the point.

No one wants it to be like the 80s again, people want the choice to be able to stand, safely. How trying to come up with a plan to organise safe standing is insulting and insensitive is beyond me.

[amfy]

I guess if your son or daughter was crushed to death, and the truth about how it happened was covered up for decades, your anger might spill over into some fairly irrational areas too. I completely disagree with what she is saying, but totally respect her right to her opinion. The people who are in the wrong are those that seek to use these views as justification.

The authorities are happy to use Hillsborough (and sensitivity to the families) as an excuse to not consider safe standing, yet happily put Man United fans behind nets when they played Man City the other week. I found this a really disturbing move in a direction we really don't want to go again. I don't think anyone asked the Hillsborough families what they thought of that. The powers that be pick and choose what they remember about Hillsborough, and will be able to continue to do so until justice is done and people are allowed to know the full truth about that day.

[Chris Harte]

To be honest, I'm surprised at all that there's even an appetite for safe standing.

The Holte End terrace went (at the same time as all the last remaining ones in the top flight) in 1994. I was relatively young back then and was happy to stand, but eighteen years of being told to take a seat probably means I won't go back to standing.

Meanwhile, a whole generation of support has grown-up knowing nothing but all-seater venues. Are they really going to be willing to stand?

[spk]

To be honest, I'm surprised at all that there's even an appetite for safe standing.

The Holte End terrace went (at the same time as all the last remaining ones in the top flight) in 1994. I was relatively young back then and was happy to stand, but eighteen years of being told to take a seat probably means I won't go back to standing.

Meanwhile, a whole generation of support has grown-up knowing nothing but all-seater venues. Are they really going to be willing to stand?

Thing is Chris,its warmer,its cheaper,its louder,you can stand with your mates instead of trying to book tickets together,free dom of choice would be ideal

[cheltenhamlion]

It will be season tickets only for standing areas I would guess.

[Simba]

Spurious arguement from Ms Aspinall. Ibrox happened on the steps leaving the stadium (without getting into details) and could arguably have happened if people were leaving seats. Hillsborough was just terrible. But caused by innefficient turnstiles, creating frustration and a gate being opened allowing the poor devils into an already packed terrace - the crowd went the wrong way because of lack of direction. Anyway the real crime was putting up those bloody fences.

The German model assigns tickets in line with the number of 'safe' seats so overcrowding cannot happen.

Furthermore, like a lots of blokes on this site a lot of my mis-spent youth saw me standing in the Holte and scores of other grounds.   I remember that there was a sense of self and mutual protection and awareness of needing to be sensible. Kids passed overhead to the front, girls standing against the barrier with the boy friend behind, arms around her and on the barrier. Stuff like that.

Anyway we survived with the Holte holding 29,000 in games like the Man U LC Semi December 1970 without incident.

But none of that is relevent Ms. Aspinall because 'safe' standing has allocated places as I say. It is very different to then but not much different to the current situation where many fans stand for the whole game in front of their seats anyway! Some Clubs seem to allow it.

Tell you what, here is an idea and it won't cost a penny, give the HI Viz jobsworths a day off and allow the fans to stand in one assigned part of the ground with the current seating -as a trial. Then put the space efficient  folding 'safe' seats in later.

[Pat McMahon]

Cracking picture, adrenachrome. On my titchy screen, I can only make out Chico Hamilton and Andy Lochhead, which would date the pic to between 1970 and 1973 I think.

It looks like it's the Bournemouth game - Feb 1972 and 48,000. I think the other player is Pat McMahon.

I reckon you are right. It is Pat McMahon and for those of you looking at the picture in Black and White, Bournemouth are in the Green and Black striped shirts.

The link for the picture    http://www.midlandsmemorabilia.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/andy-lochhead-chico-hamilton-pat-mcmahon-aston-villa-manchester-city-francis-lee-holte-end-terrace.jpg    suggests this is the Charity Shield game against Manchester City played 5/8/72, however that would be wrong as Chico Hamilton did not play in that whereas Hamilton, Lochhead, and McMahon all played against Bournemouth.

Andy, I agree with you re the photo. I also think that Man City wore that ugly white shirt with diagonal black and red sash in the Charity Shield

[dave.woodhall]

To be honest, I'm surprised at all that there's even an appetite for safe standing.

The Holte End terrace went (at the same time as all the last remaining ones in the top flight) in 1994. I was relatively young back then and was happy to stand, but eighteen years of being told to take a seat probably means I won't go back to standing.

Meanwhile, a whole generation of support has grown-up knowing nothing but all-seater venues. Are they really going to be willing to stand?

A lot of them stand every chance they get, so yes they are, but that's not the point. They wouldn't have to stand if they didn't want to, neither do you, nor Margaret Aspinall, whose contribution to this debate is as predictable as it is misguided. Sadly, hers is the level of debate we're going to get.

[Chris Harte]

Thing is Chris,its warmer,its cheaper,its louder,you can stand with your mates instead of trying to book tickets together,free dom of choice would be ideal

Well, yes, I'm aware of that. However, a whole generation have grown-up not knowing any different than seats and so for them it will be the norm. Standing might be a passing fancy for them, but nothing more.

My other thought is while younger fans are willing to regularly stand up in the seats, would they be willing to go the whole hog and buy a terrace ticket (ignoring price for a moment because saying terracing will be cheaper is just speculative, IMO, unless I've missed the statement about cheaper tickets from the club)?

[dave.woodhall]

Thing is Chris,its warmer,its cheaper,its louder,you can stand with your mates instead of trying to book tickets together,free dom of choice would be ideal

Well, yes, I'm aware of that. However, a whole generation have grown-up not knowing any different than seats and so for them it will be the norm. Standing might be a passing fancy for them, but nothing more.

My other thought is while younger fans are willing to regularly stand up in the seats, would they be willing to go the whole hog and buy a terrace ticket (ignoring price for a moment because saying terracing will be cheaper is just speculative, IMO, unless I've missed the statement about cheaper tickets from the club)?

The Taylor Report said that supporters would soon get used to sitting. Instead, the desire to stand has grown. A figure of 91.5% support shows that.

[The Laughing Policeman]

Even on some Liverpool forums this is being discussed quite sensibly, although as you'd expect there is quite a bit of resistance in that city. Never the less it is being discussed by them. And if you go onto almost any clubs forums you'll find the idea being debated this week. It has also been reported  in all the national newspapers. So well done to the club for really starting the debate in earnest.
The trick now is to try to keep the debate going and not let it become last weeks idle chatter. Quite how we do this I'm not too sure.
Maybe someone could make a "Safe Standing Please" banner to hang from the Upper Holte, large enough to be seen by the TV cameras whenever they pan across the Holte End.
Also if you happen to meet MP's or Councillors bring it up with them. Some of you may think that local councillors have no say in this matter but it's the local council that are the issuing authority for ground safety licences. Write letters to the press, bring it up on national and local football phone ins etc.
As long as we keep the debate on a sensible level and argue our corner with sensitivity and put the case forward based on the proven technology now being widely used in Germany and ensure we don't get dragged into spurious arguments about a 'return to the eighties', then I believe that this is a debate that we the fans can win.

[dave.woodhall]

www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk is useful to quote from.

[Chris Harte]

The Taylor Report said that supporters would soon get used to sitting. Instead, the desire to stand has grown. A figure of 91.5% support shows that.

Is that support for people to be given the choice, or that 91.5% actually want to stand? I'd find it hard to believe the latter.

Had a look at safe standing roadshow's site. It does explain how the system works in Germany with the barriers for every row of locked-away seating. Technically, its a good idea that works - in Germany.

The cynic in me still thinks the club wouldn't lower prices (at least not significantly - say to the level of those on the lower North Stand) if they were allowed to implement this on the corner of the Holte.

[amfy]

At the SCG they said that the greater capacity of a standing area would be reflected in pricing. They also cited one of their main reasons it as being wanting to attract young fans who have been priced out.