McLeish out Chants / banners / protests

[old man villa fan]

AM has done everything thats been asked of him so far, so to sack him now would be bordering on a case for unfair dismissal. Hes kept us in the top half of the table until recently, dealt with cost cuts and I expect he will continue to go about his job with a limited transfer fund with a sell to buy policy. If this was made clear to him and hes not kicking up a fuss behind the scenes then its hard to see Randy being unhappy...and the line from PF about European qualification is just a smoke screen to shut the fans up with a false promise of ambition.

That's one way of looking at it, I suppose.  Are you sure what he has achieved so far is what Randy wanted when he appointed him.

Others have achieved more with less.

[Concrete John]

I think the thing is that getting our finances back in order is the overriding concern right now, so while some could do more with less, Randy wants a manager willing to work under the constraints we're faced with more than anything.  When the CL is so far out of sight right now, does Europa League qualification mean all that much to us?  He's as good as anything for the short term goals of clearing the decks while steadying the ship, it's what happens after that is accomplished that is the question.  If Randy wants to start spending again in a year or two, with a closer eye on the wagebill this time, then we can probably attract a better manager and we probably should do.  But if we've given up the dream and are looking to consolidate as a mid table side, then I can see him sticking around for a while.

[ROBBO]

I'm still not convinced that we are safe, if Blackburn get another manager their form could spike upwards and Wigan seem to be playing better football now. Mcleish has history against him and if he doesn't strengthen in January all it takes is a couple of injuries.

[old man villa fan]

We should always be looking to achieve the best we can and as far as I am concerned that means 7th at this point in time (not to say we would achieve it but it should be the target) given that we are not in the same league financially as the top 6.  We should be looking to be the best of the rest so that when things do turn around financially, however slight, we have not got a huge gap to make up like we had when Randy first took over.

Accepting mid-table on the basis there is not much to be gained between either finishing 7th or 14th (or even lower) is losing sight of the fact that at the lower end you could be 25 points of 6th at the end of the season compared with 5 or 6 if finishing 7th.  To make that step back up in one or two seasons would be nigh on impossible.

We must stay in touch with the top 6 by developing a balanced squad of young and good experienced players.  This squad has to have continuity, meaning that it is constantly refreshed.  The whole club must have an ethos of continually building for the future and improving, however gradual it may be.

If people think that after clearing the decks of the ageing high earners that we are going to start spending £30 or £40m a season again and that is going to put us back in the top 5 or 6 they are sadly dreaming in an unreal world.

[Concrete John]

I think that after 38 games are played the difference between 14th and 6th and 7th and 6th will be a lot closer than you think.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to finish as high as possible, just that with the financial difference being so small it becomes a small priority in comparison to getting our finances back on track.  If the difference between two leage places is say £2m in income, but it cost us £4m to do it, we're not presently in a position to do that.  However, if and when we are again, we might be spending £20m in the hope of rising 4 or 5 places.

[old man villa fan]

The point I am trying to make is that we should always be looking to the future and not just the present.  From the end of last season it looks to me that the club is only thinking about the present, for whatever reason I am not sure.  It started with the appointment of a manager that for years has only thought in that manner.

You can act for the present and still develop for the future but for that you need a quality manager that is supported by the owner.  I am not seeing that and that is my concern.  We are coming up a long way short in leadership of the team and the club.

[Concrete John]

It depends on what you see as 'acting for the future'.  Now I'm not saying this is the case, but we have a good crop of young players who did OK last season, and probably should have got their chance before now, so the further intergration of the likes of of Herd, Bannan, Albrighton and Clark can be seen as part of a longer term strategy.  Also, signings like Edna Stevens are us trying to find the 'hidden jems' we've previously failed on.

But ultimately, the financial issues have to be corrected as part of any future planning.  Do you try to buy a house with debt and no deposit or do you try to clear your debt and safe for a deposit first? 

[Chris Smith]

I'm still not convinced that we are safe, if Blackburn get another manager their form could spike upwards and Wigan seem to be playing better football now. Mcleish has history against him and if he doesn't strengthen in January all it takes is a couple of injuries.

Of course, we're the only team likely to suffer injuries.

I wonder how miserable the Wigan and Bkackburn equivalents if you must be? The sort who can see unlikely positives at othe clubs but only doom and gloom for their iwn.

[old man villa fan]

I have always believed that to be able to integrate young players into the team when you are talking about more than one or two, you require 'leaders' on the pitch.  You need experienced players that are willing to do that bit extra to help the young players develop further in the team.  Do you see that in Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Petrov, Heskey or Cuellar because I don't.  Even with A Young and Downing, we still looked like a team of individuals.

A case in point, Nathan Delfouneso, a great youth player but is struggling to step up to the next level.  Granted he has not been given many opportunities but when he plays do you see any experienced players encouraging him and trying to bring him into the game to give him confidence.  I know it is a long time ago but I look back to Gary Shaw and how Peter Withe helped him develop during the championship winning season.

As they say, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.  Who can you name in the team that leads by example and drives/leads others.

Much has been made about too many players on high wages that are not giving value for money.  Randy has learned an expensive lesson due to his inexperience of English football.  I agree that we have to clear the decks of many of these players but where is the planning for, say, when Dunne and Collins are moved on.  Is Clark or Baker being groomed to move seamlessly into central defence.  No, the manager, is thinking about the present and keeps playing the same players in defence so that if one or both go at the end of the season we will be forced into buying replacements.  It has been like this for a long time and why many great prospects at youth level never seem to develop further with us.

[old man villa fan]

I'm still not convinced that we are safe, if Blackburn get another manager their form could spike upwards and Wigan seem to be playing better football now. Mcleish has history against him and if he doesn't strengthen in January all it takes is a couple of injuries.

Of course, we're the only team likely to suffer injuries.

I wonder how miserable the Wigan and Bkackburn equivalents if you must be? The sort who can see unlikely positives at othe clubs but only doom and gloom for their iwn.

We have the comfort in that not all the team below us are going to get more points than us in the 2nd half of the season.  Teams are at the bottom of the table because they have not picked up many points.  That is not going to suddenly change for all the teams.  There may be a 'Blackburn' that improves and performs better than us but there will be another that slips into the bottom 3 before Villa.  There are more than 3 teams that we will finish with more points than.

There will always be pessimists and, likewise, optimists regarding our and others' abilities.  A bit like a player from another team always looks better in that team than he actually is and why our transfer speculation thread goes on for hundreds of pages.

[Clampy]

I'm still not convinced that we are safe, if Blackburn get another manager their form could spike upwards and Wigan seem to be playing better football now. Mcleish has history against him and if he doesn't strengthen in January all it takes is a couple of injuries.

Of course, we're the only team likely to suffer injuries.

I wonder how miserable the Wigan and Bkackburn equivalents if you must be? The sort who can see unlikely positives at othe clubs but only doom and gloom for their iwn.

I don't see anything wrong with what Robbo has said, it's just an observation he's made and it's a fair one. We're only 6 points off Wigan and like Robbo has hinted, Blues suffered injuries last season and paid the price for it.

I don't think we'll go down, but i'm not unrealistic to think that it won't happen because it could.

[PeterWithesShin]

You only have to look at our bench recently to see that a bad injury run could put us in trouble.

Stoke: Ireland, Marshall, Bannan, Weimann, Delfouneso, Johnson, Gardner
Arsenal: Marshall, Collins, Williams, Delph, Bannan, Delfouneso, Weimann
Racist FC: Marshall, Clark, Cuellar, Bannan, Johnson, Weimann, Burke

[Concrete John]

I have always believed that to be able to integrate young players into the team when you are talking about more than one or two, you require 'leaders' on the pitch.  You need experienced players that are willing to do that bit extra to help the young players develop further in the team.  Do you see that in Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Petrov, Heskey or Cuellar because I don't.  Even with A Young and Downing, we still looked like a team of individuals.

A case in point, Nathan Delfouneso, a great youth player but is struggling to step up to the next level.  Granted he has not been given many opportunities but when he plays do you see any experienced players encouraging him and trying to bring him into the game to give him confidence.  I know it is a long time ago but I look back to Gary Shaw and how Peter Withe helped him develop during the championship winning season.

As they say, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.  Who can you name in the team that leads by example and drives/leads others.

Much has been made about too many players on high wages that are not giving value for money.  Randy has learned an expensive lesson due to his inexperience of English football.  I agree that we have to clear the decks of many of these players but where is the planning for, say, when Dunne and Collins are moved on.  Is Clark or Baker being groomed to move seamlessly into central defence.  No, the manager, is thinking about the present and keeps playing the same players in defence so that if one or both go at the end of the season we will be forced into buying replacements.  It has been like this for a long time and why many great prospects at youth level never seem to develop further with us.

Yes, strong characters are needed, but even if I agreed with your assessment of the present experienced batch, which I don't, does that mean we just throw a generation away?  Or spend money we haven't got trying to get players in who will benefit them greater?

No, what we do is get the best out of our present squad as the young lads get game time.

In relation to the bit about Clark and Dunne/Collins leaving, I do take your point somewhat.  However, lets not presume we'll no what happens before it does as Clark could slip back into the defence alongside Dunne quiet nicely, IMO.  If you look at Man Utd they are doing something similar with Jones, yet Fergie is not getting criticised for it.

As I've said before though, the conclusion of this debate will be found in what happens next.  If we clear the decks and then start building in a more sustainable way again, then the traces of that will be found in this season.  If not, and we do carry on treading water, then I'll be joing the 'Randy must sell up' brigade.

[Eigentor]

If it were up to me I'd sack him and get Hodgson in.

It'd give the club a lift, he's shown in recent seasons he's capable of doing well at clubs with similar ambitions to ours currently and he improves players. Which would save us a fortune.

I don't see the point in spending lots of money sacking McLeish and replacing him with a marginally better manager in Hodgson. The latter may be a better tactician, but he's of the same ilk, a limited one-trick pony. Like McLeish, he'd be decent if his trick fits and a possible catastrophe (like at Liverpool) if it doesn't. I'll admit that McLeish is limited and that we could do far better than employing him, but he's not crap and doesn't appear to be a catastrophe. However, the club should start well before the end of the season to consider if this (football a la McLeish) is really what they want (and a feasible way to make us progress as a football club).

[pauliewalnuts]

I think that after 38 games are played the difference between 14th and 6th and 7th and 6th will be a lot closer than you think.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to finish as high as possible, just that with the financial difference being so small it becomes a small priority in comparison to getting our finances back on track.  If the difference between two leage places is say £2m in income, but it cost us £4m to do it, we're not presently in a position to do that.  However, if and when we are again, we might be spending £20m in the hope of rising 4 or 5 places.

Crikey, if we're looking at it that way, we might as well start following companies on the stock market or something.

At the end of the day, it's about supporting a football team, seeing some good football, getting excited and finishing as high as we possibly can.

if the owner reduces it down to "what's the point trying", then really, we might as well just jack it in and find something else less stressful / annoying / frustrating to do with our time.