Guardian highlights the bleedin' obvious

[Chris Smith]

Paulie, you answered your opening question for me with rest of your post. If you're just going to keep on with the "everything is shit all of the time" stance then we're not going to have a sensible discussion. You appear to be allowing your need to win an argument on the internet get in the way of looking at things in any sort of objective way.

If all of the things you claim were true, we'd lose every game by a hatful.

We are an inconsistent side not just from week to week but in the course of a single game, just as we were were last season. The difference is we had better players then.

[Somniloquism]

Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner? In some games it's felt like that but in others they've done their jobs correctly.

There seems no rhyme nor reason to it.

I suppose it depends when the goal counts from being from a set piece. Pretty much every goal we have let in recently up to Sunday seems to have been after the original ball has been dealt with but then the following ball in the box has been the killer. Does that count from being from a corner or not. It still doesn't mean we have done the job properly though as they seem to switch off once headed away and don't know who or where to mark then.

[Chris Smith]

Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two  very average full backs.

I don't see what that has to do with defending corners which is what prompted this thread.

The highlighted bit maybe? But as Young used to be left back and that meant Cueller was RB, we had the extra head in the box at corners.

That I agree with, we also often had Carew at the front post. It doesn't explain though why we defended well against Manu, for example, at set pieces but poorly yesterday. I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it but to try to fathom out why it happens in some games.

[SamTheMouse]

Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.

Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner? In some games it's felt like that but in others they've done their jobs correctly.

There seems no rhyme nor reason to it.

A few reasons, I reckon.

First, the other team. Mostly, the games we've defended better in have been against struggling sides. Anyone who attacks us with a bit of simple movement in the penalty area gets chances against us.

Second, poor morale and a general feeling of disorganisation. I think the whole team is suffering from a kind of lethargy, anticlimax, basically mirroring what we fans are feeling at the moment. That surely has to lead to lapses in concentration. When you're not really up for something 100 percent, your mind drifts. I think we are sorely lacking in intensity.

Third, pressure. The defence is panicking more often because our lack of punch up front is loading all the pressure on the back four to keep a clean sheet.

Finally, the Mcleish factor. He's clearly trying to get us to tighten up and stay organised, from back to front. Fair enough. But the outfield lads, with the honourable exception of Gabby, are struggling with this. They are too inhibited to interchange positionally and create passing options. They were very hesitant on Sunday, and it led to Bannan giving away the ball constantly, as he was having to take huge risks. That in turn cranks up the pressure on the defence even further.

[PeterWithe]

In theory the zonal marking system should work well as long as you have five good headers of the ball, or is six? We haven't got them anymore.

[ozzjim]

Not scoring in 10 of 16 games does not help confidence when defending either. With Bent and Gabby in the side, that stat alone should warrant the sack.

[Percy McCarthy]

I just don't get zonal marking at all.

Obviously.

It's what we used to do when we were good at defending set-pieces.

[adrenachrome]

I just don't get zonal marking at all.

Obviously.

It's what we used to do when we were good at defending set-pieces.

Correct.

Martin Laursen  has said precisely this in an article I have posted before.

[Percy McCarthy]

I just don't get zonal marking at all.

Obviously.

It's what we used to do when we were good at defending set-pieces.

Correct.

Martin Laursen  has said precisely this in an article I have posted before.

I can't believe that so many people who spend a goodly amount of time watching and discussing football still don't know what zonal marking is.

Could somebody please post Norm Crandles' excellent explanation?

[KevinGage]

How about that quote from the Dunner?   "We've flitted between man marking and zonal marking in the past few seasons and never really pinpointed which one we should be doing."

[Dante Lavelli]

How about that quote from the Dunner?   "We've flitted between man marking and zonal marking in the past few seasons and never really pinpointed which one we should be doing."

Indeed that is just bonkers.  From rumours at the time I vaguely remember that he - Dunne - was a leader in a mutiny against whichever system Houllier was trying to implement.  It's highly ironic that he is now saying it's hard to pinpoint exactly what system they were trying to use (assuming the rumours were correct of course).

Dunne strikes me - admittedly a keyboard warrior - as a big personality in the dressing room.  If he's pulling in the same direction then he is a great guy to have at the club (like when he had a point to prove to man city or generally with Ireland) but I fear his character transcends the whole squad.  I'm sure we've all worked with people that have such an influence on a workplace's morale so it's not too hard to imagine.

Ideally you want this character to be at the top of the tree dictating the ethos of the organisation, but Randy by his own admission says he is a silent owner, and therefore there is a vacuum for someone lower down to become the heartbeat of the club.  I think Dunne is a good footballer but I have a hunch that we might be better off without him.

[KevinGage]

That quote also illustrates that it was more than just last season when we flitted between the two. 

Apart from Cuellar at fullback, the other difference between 09/10 and 10/11 was Carew or Heskey (and sometimes both) also in our penalty area defending incoming deliveries.

So Carew, Heskey, Cuellar, Dunne and Collins v  Dunne, Collins and occasionally Heskey.
Zonal or man to man, having 4/5 big bastards in our box compared to 2/3 is probably the most telling factor really.

[Mister E]

That quote also illustrates that it was more than just last season when we flitted between the two. 

Apart from Cuellar at fullback, the other difference between 09/10 and 10/11 was Carew or Heskey (and sometimes both) also in our penalty area defending incoming deliveries.

So Carew, Heskey, Cuellar, Dunne and Collins v  Dunne, Collins and occasionally Heskey.
Zonal or man to man, having 4/5 big bastards in our box compared to 2/3 is probably the most telling factor really.

Funny, 'cos I mentioned on one of the match threads on Sunday that I thought that we missed Herd; not just for his in-play contribution but also defending corners / set pieces.

Based on several contributions above, I'd say that zonal marking may not be the devil incarnate but it does require the right personnel on the pitch and a commitment from each to defend the space they're allocated. At the moment there seems a rather half-hearted effort to repel the attackers. Maybe the current players just aren't smart enough to get it, but I don't believe they're being asked to do anything too taxing.
Interesting how we seem to particularly get caught out by the better sides: is there a psychological isssue here in the way they approach certain games? - assuredly, at Bolton there was a confidence of approach lacking on Sunday and against ManUre.

In the end, it comes down to the coaching and set-up: Steve Walford is probably a whole lot under-rated as a defensive coach. Currnetly, there does not appear to be anyone on the coaching staff who is attacking this issue and finding a sustainable solution.

[JJ-AV]

Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two  very average full backs.

Hutton is not even average. I've never known a player so consistently get pulled out of position.

Really?

The clown on the other side runs him close.

[cheltenhamlion]

Is that stat true Ozz? We have only scored in 6 of 16 games? Its worse than I thought if true.