Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Mister E on December 19, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
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Apologies if this has already be posted. Makes you want to weep, this zonal marking bollocks.
Taken from today's "5 things we learned at the weekend" on the - appropriately-named - Guardian website:
Aston Villa's defence is still mismanagedOn the last day of the summer 2009 transfer window Aston Villa signed Richard Dunne and James Collins (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/sep/01/aston-villa-sign-richard-dunne) from Manchester City and West Ham United respectively, assembling in a day a central defensive partnership that, apart from Carlos Cuéllar helping out a bit for a while, has remained unbroken since.
It is worth remembering, at this point, how good they once looked. In their first season at the club Villa kept 15 clean sheets and had the fourth best defensive record in the division, despite conceding four at home to Blackburn Rovers and seven at Chelsea – two games that between them accounted for 28% of the goals they shipped all season. Martin O'Neill smilingly acknowledged (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/10/martin-oneill-aston-villa-richard-dunne) the "bit of luck" that had allowed them to steal Dunne from Manchester for £6m, "incredible value", as the Irishman strolled into the PFA team of the season.
Villa conceded an average of 1.03 goals per game in O'Neill's last season and finished in sixth place but, when the Irishman left, their defensive solidity went with him [Ed: nothing to do with MON; Steve Walford's the man]. The following season, under Gérard Houllier, they kept less than half as many clean sheets (seven). Where they had been notably strong when defending set pieces, they suddenly had the Premier League (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/premierleague)'s worst record. The players blamed the quality of coaching and in March Dunne and Collins were punished (http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/03/13/aston-villa-richard-dunne-and-james-collins-face-punishment-after-bust-up-at-spa-during-team-bonding-break-97319-28328479/) after they got drunk during a "team bonding" weekend and decided to tell the coaching staff exactly what they thought of them.
Houllier, bizarrely given the statistics, blamed this defensive uncertainty on his predecessor. "They had their habits for four years and I am not going to change it in the middle of the season," he said. "Next year it is obviously something I'll address."
He did not get the chance. Instead Alex McLeish, a former defender, was chosen to right the ship. "It could help that he used to be a defender but he could also pinpoint our faults more easily," Dunne said (http://www.birminghammail.net/birmingham-sport/midlands-football/2011/07/26/aston-villa-in-hong-kong-richard-dunne-says-alex-mcleish-has-installed-new-team-spirit-97319-29118461/) in July, welcoming the appointment. "I think as a team we'll be defensively tighter. I think that's where you should start from and that's the basis."
In that same interview, back in July, Dunne spoke about the problems the team was experiencing from set pieces. "We've flitted between man marking and zonal marking in the past few seasons and never really pinpointed which one we should be doing," he said. "But I'm sure over the coming weeks, before the league starts, the manager will have it nailed down and he'll tell us exactly what we're doing, who we're marking and what way we're doing it."
Er, nope. Once again this season Villa have conceded more goals from corners than anyone else and they looked comically hapless in letting Liverpool convert two in the opening 20 minutes (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/dec/18/aston-villa-liverpool-premier-league) on Sunday. Martin Skrtel's goal could be used as a three-second demonstration of the failings of a zonal marking system: he starts beyond the back post, where nobody is watching him, runs unmolested past Dunne, who was minding the far post, and Collins, likewise picking up space, nips in front of Emile Heskey (who was marking Jonjo Shelvey) and gets a free header.
Dunne particularly had a poor game and was embarrassed by Luis Suárez twice in as many seconds before the Uruguayan hit the bar in the second half but Villa's defensive record from set pieces this season and last cannot be blamed on their centre-halves. Set pieces, particularly in defence, are the clearest test of a coach's mettle and it is one Houllier flunked and McLeish is flunking.
:'( :'(
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The annoying thing is at the start of the season we looked to have sorted it out. Then after about half a dozen games we went to pot only to appear to have got back to good habits with three good defensive performances before yesterday. It makes no sense.
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I just don't get zonal marking at all. It always seems to be a mess at any club that try it, man to man is fine. Desire and muscle, get there first, get it out.
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The article misses an obvious point. When our defence had that great run it was with a back four of Cuellar, Dunne, Collins and Warnock. Now whatever his deficiencies as a right back going forward (he was pretty crap TBF) having Carlos in there meant that we had an additional centre half and tall man covering for the other two at set pieces. The other two (especially Collins) are not as good as some think and need the additional cover. Now we lack that and manage to combine two not wonderfully brilliant, sometime error prone centre halves with two completely braindead full backs with the positional sense of a dead halibut. When we just had one of those (who Collins frequently had to be sucked out of position to cover for) we got away with it. Now, we have two shit fullbacks and an out of form Collins we tend to suffer more.
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Despite all the other huge failings with our side, sorting this out has to be the top priority. It is costing us 1 or 2 goals in every single game at the moment. We're not good enough to cope with that.
The keeper position doesn't help - neither option are good enough at coming for the ball. But there's not much we can do about that. We can improve our organisation. Surely Blues were much better than us at this?
I dread to think what's going to happen at Stoke. It'll be mayhem!
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Also, if you give the ball away as much as Collins and Dunne do, it is inevitable that you will be defending for longer periods of the game than other teams. I wonder if any context to the Guardian's statistics would change the result, ie goals conceded as a percetnage of the amount of chances Villa have to defend or opposition corners. But then its a wider question of defending as a team and ball retention, which, I dare say, Villa are the worst in the league at presently. Fook it, the sooner any one of the following happens the better: a) McLeish leaves, b) Dunne and Collins leave, c) Dare i say it, Lerner sells up, d) all of the above. I probably don't really mean all that (well some of it) but it feels that way at the moment.
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The thing that got me about the first goal on Sunday was that we more than anyone should know that downing never gets a corner past the first man.
We didn't have a first man.
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I've been banging on about zonal marking all season, quite frankly its fucking shit. We need to sort it out! Everyone said mcshit would sort out the defence and he hasn't. Either he can't or they are fuck wits? Which is it?
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The article misses an obvious point. When our defence had that great run it was with a back four of Cuellar, Dunne, Collins and Warnock. Now whatever his deficiencies as a right back going forward (he was pretty crap TBF) having Carlos in there meant that we had an additional centre half and tall man covering for the other two at set pieces. The other two (especially Collins) are not as good as some think and need the additional cover. Now we lack that and manage to combine two not wonderfully brilliant, sometime error prone centre halves with two completely braindead full backs with the positional sense of a dead halibut. When we just had one of those (who Collins frequently had to be sucked out of position to cover for) we got away with it. Now, we have two shit fullbacks and an out of form Collins we tend to suffer more.
My thoughts, too.
Regardless as to whether you play man-for-man or zonal, the ball that is put in there still has to be won. We play man-for-man and our defender gets left flat-footed and beaten by the player he should be marking. We play zonal and our defenders get left flat-footed and get beaten by players moving into the zone that they are covering.
Why is it? Lack of concentration, lack of communication or lack of commitment. We concede a goal and there seems to be a lack of reaction between the players which to me feels like the last of the shortcomings.
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I just don't get zonal marking at all. It always seems to be a mess at any club that try it, man to man is fine. Desire and muscle, get there first, get it out.
Trouble is that there is no evidence to back up the claim that zonal marking is less effective than man-to-man. The main difference is that when a defender fails to pick up the goal scorer, the system is to blame if the team is using zonal marking. If he fails to do it when the team is playing man-to-man, the defender is to blame.
Barcelona use zonal marking, Valencia did it under Benitez, and Villa did it under MON. Neither team was/is a mess at defensive set-pieces.
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The thing that got me about the first goal on Sunday was that we more than anyone should know that downing never gets a corner past the first man.
We didn't have a first man.
Brilliant observation that any of the muppets in the coaching staff should have picked up.
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The thing that got me about the first goal on Sunday was that we more than anyone should know that downing never gets a corner past the first man.
We didn't have a first man.
Brilliant observation that any of the muppets in the coaching staff should have picked up.
We have coaches?
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Yes, they take us to away games, but that is not important right now.
(I'll get my coat)
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Also, if you give the ball away as much as Collins and Dunne do, it is inevitable that you will be defending for longer periods of the game than other teams. I wonder if any context to the Guardian's statistics would change the result, ie goals conceded as a percetnage of the amount of chances Villa have to defend or opposition corners. But then its a wider question of defending as a team and ball retention, which, I dare say, Villa are the worst in the league at presently. Fook it, the sooner any one of the following happens the better: a) McLeish leaves, b) Dunne and Collins leave, c) Dare i say it, Lerner sells up, d) all of the above. I probably don't really mean all that (well some of it) but it feels that way at the moment.
Trouble is, it's not just Dunne and Collins giving the ball away!How many times did Delph, Bannan and Albrighton give the ball away yesterday, usually under no pressure!
As you say Mr D, our ball retention is shite! That's got to be down to what's happening on the training ground, as has defending from set pieces and a basic plan of moving towards the opposition goal and trying to put the round thing somewhere near the white posty things!
I am still gobsmacked at our players' united lack of desire to want the ball, keep the ball and play it in a forward direction. Kids in the playground do it all the time.
It's called football!
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A good article that, nice to see a journalist doing some actual research.
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Maybe they do work on it in training (I can't believe they don't).
But there seems to be a rotten core at the club, and their fecklessness/ disinterest looks to be contagious.
Houllier took stick after the Bolton game for his "we'll address it in the summer," quote.
From me included. But it seems that rather than tactics and training ground work, he knew that particular issue was down to the personnel involved. And only a change of personnel would rectify it.
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What made me larf yesterday,in the 2nd half there was one corner with nobody on the front post( or anywhere near it) and Bannon on the back stick.
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Houllier took stick after the Bolton game for his "we'll address it in the summer," quote.
From me included. But it seems that rather than tactics and training ground work, he knew that particular issue was down to the personnel involved. And only a change of personnel would rectify it.
I mention that in my bit in the new H&V.
I think we all thought he meant "sort it through training". I now reckon it was "ship the useless fuckers out"
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Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.
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Houllier took stick after the Bolton game for his "we'll address it in the summer," quote.
From me included. But it seems that rather than tactics and training ground work, he knew that particular issue was down to the personnel involved. And only a change of personnel would rectify it.
I mention that in my bit in the new H&V.
I think we all thought he meant "sort it through training". I now reckon it was "ship the useless fuckers out"
I think that now too. Doesn't excuse the fact that Houllier abdicated responsibility for sorting it out at the time but the more i see of the chuckle twins the more i'm convinced GH had their card marked.
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Zonal marking isnt just Zonal, Dunne was marking and didnt bother to go with him.
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Despite his occasional defeatism (Liverpool away, Man City in the cup) Houllier was probably onto something when he dropped Dunne for his poor performances, and Warnock for his poor attitude.
McLeish will have to do something similar to regain respect. I think a lot of us expected poor results and a less than exciting brand of football when he arrived. But some will have been surprised by his readiness to accept defeat, and his unwillingness to sort out underperforming players.
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Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.
Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner? In some games it's felt like that but in others they've done their jobs correctly.
There seems no rhyme nor reason to it.
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Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.
Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner? In some games it's felt like that but in others they've done their jobs correctly.
There seems no rhyme nor reason to it.
38% of all goals we've conceded this season have come from corners. That was before Sunday, and is more than any other team in the PL.
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I accept that but we've had plenty of games where we've defended them perfectly adequately. That's the point I'm making, they get it right some weeks. I know we're mostly in a mood where we don't want to accept that it isn't all shit all of the time but that doesn't get us very far. Some games we defend ok, some games we make terrible blunders amidst defending well and sometimes we seem to struggle for 90 minutes.
Why?
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Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two very average full backs.
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I accept that but we've had plenty of games where we've defended them perfectly adequately. That's the point I'm making, they get it right some weeks. I know we're mostly in a mood where we don't want to accept that it isn't all shit all of the time but that doesn't get us very far. Some games we defend ok, some games we make terrible blunders amidst defending well and sometimes we seem to struggle for 90 minutes.
Why?
Why the need for "I know we're mostly in a mood where we don't want to accept that it isn't all shit all of the time but that doesn't get us very far"? Why not just take people's opinons at face value? It's not like people are inventing this stuff for the sake of it, in some attempt to be globally doomy.
As for why, well, in some games, we get away with it, that's why it doesn't always happen, but whatever the reason, a defence that leaks goals from corners to that extent clearly has significant problems.
It'd be bad enough if the problems were with just the defence, but they're not. We're pretty poor in most of the other areas, too.
We can't pass the ball, we can't keep it when we have it, our defending - when we manage to do it - consists largely of booting it straight back at the opposition so it can come back again, we don't engage in any movement off the ball, and we haven't the first clue how to get it to the strikers. Most of the passes we make seem to be, at best, 50/50 balls.
In fact, there's one reason the defence is so rubbish, we invite pressure onto it by constantly giving the ball away cheaply.
Whatever the issue is, why do the same four start every week? Cuellar and Clark are available too. I wonder what Dunne and Collins would need to do to actually get dropped.
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Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two very average full backs.
Hutton is not even average. I've never known a player so consistently get pulled out of position.
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Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two very average full backs.
I don't see what that has to do with defending corners which is what prompted this thread.
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Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two very average full backs.
I don't see what that has to do with defending corners which is what prompted this thread.
The highlighted bit maybe? But as Young used to be left back and that meant Cueller was RB, we had the extra head in the box at corners.
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Paulie, you answered your opening question for me with rest of your post. If you're just going to keep on with the "everything is shit all of the time" stance then we're not going to have a sensible discussion. You appear to be allowing your need to win an argument on the internet get in the way of looking at things in any sort of objective way.
If all of the things you claim were true, we'd lose every game by a hatful.
We are an inconsistent side not just from week to week but in the course of a single game, just as we were were last season. The difference is we had better players then.
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Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner? In some games it's felt like that but in others they've done their jobs correctly.
There seems no rhyme nor reason to it.
I suppose it depends when the goal counts from being from a set piece. Pretty much every goal we have let in recently up to Sunday seems to have been after the original ball has been dealt with but then the following ball in the box has been the killer. Does that count from being from a corner or not. It still doesn't mean we have done the job properly though as they seem to switch off once headed away and don't know who or where to mark then.
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Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two very average full backs.
I don't see what that has to do with defending corners which is what prompted this thread.
The highlighted bit maybe? But as Young used to be left back and that meant Cueller was RB, we had the extra head in the box at corners.
That I agree with, we also often had Carew at the front post. It doesn't explain though why we defended well against Manu, for example, at set pieces but poorly yesterday. I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it but to try to fathom out why it happens in some games.
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Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.
Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner? In some games it's felt like that but in others they've done their jobs correctly.
There seems no rhyme nor reason to it.
A few reasons, I reckon.
First, the other team. Mostly, the games we've defended better in have been against struggling sides. Anyone who attacks us with a bit of simple movement in the penalty area gets chances against us.
Second, poor morale and a general feeling of disorganisation. I think the whole team is suffering from a kind of lethargy, anticlimax, basically mirroring what we fans are feeling at the moment. That surely has to lead to lapses in concentration. When you're not really up for something 100 percent, your mind drifts. I think we are sorely lacking in intensity.
Third, pressure. The defence is panicking more often because our lack of punch up front is loading all the pressure on the back four to keep a clean sheet.
Finally, the Mcleish factor. He's clearly trying to get us to tighten up and stay organised, from back to front. Fair enough. But the outfield lads, with the honourable exception of Gabby, are struggling with this. They are too inhibited to interchange positionally and create passing options. They were very hesitant on Sunday, and it led to Bannan giving away the ball constantly, as he was having to take huge risks. That in turn cranks up the pressure on the defence even further.
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In theory the zonal marking system should work well as long as you have five good headers of the ball, or is six? We haven't got them anymore.
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Not scoring in 10 of 16 games does not help confidence when defending either. With Bent and Gabby in the side, that stat alone should warrant the sack.
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I just don't get zonal marking at all.
Obviously.
It's what we used to do when we were good at defending set-pieces.
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I just don't get zonal marking at all.
Obviously.
It's what we used to do when we were good at defending set-pieces.
Correct.
Martin Laursen has said precisely this in an article I have posted before.
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I just don't get zonal marking at all.
Obviously.
It's what we used to do when we were good at defending set-pieces.
Correct.
Martin Laursen has said precisely this in an article I have posted before.
I can't believe that so many people who spend a goodly amount of time watching and discussing football still don't know what zonal marking is.
Could somebody please post Norm Crandles' excellent explanation?
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How about that quote from the Dunner? "We've flitted between man marking and zonal marking in the past few seasons and never really pinpointed which one we should be doing."
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How about that quote from the Dunner? "We've flitted between man marking and zonal marking in the past few seasons and never really pinpointed which one we should be doing."
Indeed that is just bonkers. From rumours at the time I vaguely remember that he - Dunne - was a leader in a mutiny against whichever system Houllier was trying to implement. It's highly ironic that he is now saying it's hard to pinpoint exactly what system they were trying to use (assuming the rumours were correct of course).
Dunne strikes me - admittedly a keyboard warrior - as a big personality in the dressing room. If he's pulling in the same direction then he is a great guy to have at the club (like when he had a point to prove to man city or generally with Ireland) but I fear his character transcends the whole squad. I'm sure we've all worked with people that have such an influence on a workplace's morale so it's not too hard to imagine.
Ideally you want this character to be at the top of the tree dictating the ethos of the organisation, but Randy by his own admission says he is a silent owner, and therefore there is a vacuum for someone lower down to become the heartbeat of the club. I think Dunne is a good footballer but I have a hunch that we might be better off without him.
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That quote also illustrates that it was more than just last season when we flitted between the two.
Apart from Cuellar at fullback, the other difference between 09/10 and 10/11 was Carew or Heskey (and sometimes both) also in our penalty area defending incoming deliveries.
So Carew, Heskey, Cuellar, Dunne and Collins v Dunne, Collins and occasionally Heskey.
Zonal or man to man, having 4/5 big bastards in our box compared to 2/3 is probably the most telling factor really.
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That quote also illustrates that it was more than just last season when we flitted between the two.
Apart from Cuellar at fullback, the other difference between 09/10 and 10/11 was Carew or Heskey (and sometimes both) also in our penalty area defending incoming deliveries.
So Carew, Heskey, Cuellar, Dunne and Collins v Dunne, Collins and occasionally Heskey.
Zonal or man to man, having 4/5 big bastards in our box compared to 2/3 is probably the most telling factor really.
Funny, 'cos I mentioned on one of the match threads on Sunday that I thought that we missed Herd; not just for his in-play contribution but also defending corners / set pieces.
Based on several contributions above, I'd say that zonal marking may not be the devil incarnate but it does require the right personnel on the pitch and a commitment from each to defend the space they're allocated. At the moment there seems a rather half-hearted effort to repel the attackers. Maybe the current players just aren't smart enough to get it, but I don't believe they're being asked to do anything too taxing.
Interesting how we seem to particularly get caught out by the better sides: is there a psychological isssue here in the way they approach certain games? - assuredly, at Bolton there was a confidence of approach lacking on Sunday and against ManUre.
In the end, it comes down to the coaching and set-up: Steve Walford is probably a whole lot under-rated as a defensive coach. Currnetly, there does not appear to be anyone on the coaching staff who is attacking this issue and finding a sustainable solution.
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Luke Young has been a big loss i think. We always seemed a more organised defence whenever he played. I don't think Dunne and Collins are helped by two very average full backs.
Hutton is not even average. I've never known a player so consistently get pulled out of position.
Really?
The clown on the other side runs him close.
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Is that stat true Ozz? We have only scored in 6 of 16 games? Its worse than I thought if true.
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So does this mean we can expect a close game against arsenal when we all think we'll get turned over but it will be a 4-0 loss against stoke with the amount of balls they'll launch into the box? That will be more embarrassing.
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I must say our defending is woefull the players playing at the back need to sort themselves out and concentrate more getting back to defending in a way that they can win the headers in the box and stop giving the ball away.
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It's not just e defence though. Our main issue is the lightweight midfield. There's bugger all going on there which is in turn putting too much pressure on the back four. And this issue with the midfield has not been addressed since Milner left. It isn't something new this season.
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It's not just e defence though. Our main issue is the lightweight midfield. There's bugger all going on there which is in turn putting too much pressure on the back four. And this issue with the midfield has not been addressed since Milner left. It isn't something new this season.
Agree with that. Our midfield this season has been a merry go round, ending up at times as a hodge podge of mavericks, strikers and defenders.
It as though the midfield isn't seen as a creative springboard going forward, but as a buffer zone for the defence. Yet it isn't even doing that job effectively.
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Is that stat true Ozz? We have only scored in 6 of 16 games? Its worse than I thought if true.
No.
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Paulie, you answered your opening question for me with rest of your post. If you're just going to keep on with the "everything is shit all of the time" stance then we're not going to have a sensible discussion. You appear to be allowing your need to win an argument on the internet get in the way of looking at things in any sort of objective way.
Not at all, I'm basing what I say on what I've seen this season, and it hasn't been pretty. The statistics also back it up. 38% of goals conceded from corners.
Being told I'm just doing it to win an argument on the internet rather than being a bit objective is a fine compliment indeed coming from you, Chris, he who loves arguing on the internet like no other.
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Is that stat true Ozz? We have only scored in 6 of 16 games? Its worse than I thought if true.
We've scored in 10 of 16.
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Paulie, you answered your opening question for me with rest of your post. If you're just going to keep on with the "everything is shit all of the time" stance then we're not going to have a sensible discussion. You appear to be allowing your need to win an argument on the internet get in the way of looking at things in any sort of objective way.
Not at all, I'm basing what I say on what I've seen this season, and it hasn't been pretty. The statistics also back it up. 38% of goals conceded from corners.
Being told I'm just doing it to win an argument on the internet rather than being a bit objective is a fine compliment indeed coming from you, Chris, he who loves arguing on the internet like no other.
You're right, I do enjoy a good argument but I try to remain objective. We're not always shit, we're not shit at every corner, some of our players do sometimes move off the ball, sometimes we do pass the ball well etc.
It's not all black and white and, in my opinion, the discussions are more interesting when polarised opinions are put aside and stances are not exaggerated to make a point.
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You're right, I do enjoy a good argument but I try to remain objective. We're not always shit, we're not shit at every corner, some of our players do sometimes move off the ball, sometimes we do pass the ball well etc.
Certainly factually correct that we're not always shit from corners. We haven't conceded a goal from every corner this season for example. But we've conceded more than any other team in the league this year, so it's certainly a weakness.
We've also failed to score from open play in 8 of our 16 league games this year, which doesn't look good when a very average season last year resulted in us failing to score from open play in 10 out of the 38 games.
Big problems at both ends of the pitch.
Coupled with us having pretty abysmal posession stats, second bottom I believe, it's certainly not great.
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I'm not trying to claim it's great, it clearly isn't, just add a bit of balance. We've conceded the highest percentage of goals from corners apparently but that isn't the same as conceding more than anyone else as our overall defensive record is better than a lot of teams.
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And the more you look at the stats they're showing it's a big midfield problem rather than a defensive one. Not that the defence it without fault. But us being so lightweight and poor in midfield is putting more and more pressure on the back four. Maybe that's why Collins reverts to hoof as there isn't enough movement for him to get a good pass off an start an attack. Not having te midfield is also stopping the balls going trough to either the widemen or up to the attackers. Bent is a passenger this season but he has shown give him chances and he scores. We're not doing that.
I'm not saying one signing in midfield is going to solve all out problems. But we are so piss poor in that department and it's showing up all over the pitch
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Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.
Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner?
Let me think? West Brom, Spurs, man City, Sunderland and crosses from outwide v Norwich, Manu and Bolton
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Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.
Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner?
Let me think? West Brom, Spurs, man City, Sunderland and crosses from outwide v Norwich, Manu and Bolton
I see, so to support your claim that a corner against us is like a penalty you're now including any cross into the box. Why stop there, why not add any pass that goes off the ground, or any made by a player that also takes corners?
I was asking because for a number of games we'd dealt with them pretty well.
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And the more you look at the stats they're showing it's a big midfield problem rather than a defensive one. Not that the defence it without fault. But us being so lightweight and poor in midfield is putting more and more pressure on the back four. Maybe that's why Collins reverts to hoof as there isn't enough movement for him to get a good pass off an start an attack. Not having te midfield is also stopping the balls going trough to either the widemen or up to the attackers. Bent is a passenger this season but he has shown give him chances and he scores. We're not doing that.
I'm not saying one signing in midfield is going to solve all out problems. But we are so piss poor in that department and it's showing up all over the pitch
I agree, I've been saying for weeks that the problem is the balance in midfield. If a player doesn't show for the ball hoofing it is the lesser of 2 evils compared to getting caught in possession. At Bolton all 4 of our midfield players had decent games and we looked a different side because of it. Obviously the quality of opposition makes a difference but it demonstrates that they are able perform at a decent standard.
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I can see your point about the lacklustre midfield, Chris and Midnite, and I largely agree with it. However, I don't think it has too much of an impact on the poor efforts of our centre-backs when defending corners or free-kicks around the box. And while I can see the lack of protection afforded to them in open play, they are responsible for their shoddy positioning and over-eagerness to 'dive in' (although Dunne less so on that last point).
I just find it very frustrating that we DO have the option to try something else and we don't. Has Collins been so good as to be considered irreplaceable? Has Clark or Cuellar been so poor to be cast aside? I don't think so. When we signed Collins I was one of the minority that considered it a good buy, and I still think so in hindsight, but he has been pretty bloody poor for the last twelve months or so.
So why not try a different partnership at centre-back? Or why not bring back Cuellar to right-back to help out with our obvious weakness to set-pieces? I don't know if those things would work, but they might, so why the reluctance to try?
That, and any sort of defensive improvement in midfield (and I include the ability to keep the fekkin' ball in that), might just see us right. I thought McLeish might be onto something earlier in the season, for example, with the 4-2-3-1 formation; with Albrighton and N'Zogbia looking a bit more lively now, I'd be inclined to try that again.
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Indeed. And there we go completely full circle. That's down to the zonal and man marking argument. They may not be bad players individually but something isn't right. Whether its working together or the lack of understanding between the zonal and man marking methods