Guardian highlights the bleedin' obvious

[midnite]

So does this mean we can expect a close game against arsenal when we all think we'll get turned over but it will be a 4-0 loss against stoke with the amount of balls they'll launch into the box? That will be more embarrassing.

[darren woolley]

I must say our defending is woefull the players playing at the back need to sort themselves out and concentrate more getting back to defending in a way that they can win the headers in the box and stop giving the ball away.

[midnite]

It's not just e defence though. Our main issue is the lightweight midfield. There's bugger all going on there which is in turn putting too much pressure on the back four. And this issue with the midfield has not been addressed since Milner left. It isn't something new this season.

[Vanilla]

It's not just e defence though. Our main issue is the lightweight midfield. There's bugger all going on there which is in turn putting too much pressure on the back four. And this issue with the midfield has not been addressed since Milner left. It isn't something new this season.

Agree with that. Our midfield this season has been a merry go round, ending up at times as a hodge podge of mavericks, strikers and defenders.

It as though the midfield isn't seen as a creative springboard going forward, but as a buffer zone for the defence. Yet it isn't even doing that job effectively.

[Chris Smith]

Is that stat true Ozz? We have only scored in 6 of 16 games? Its worse than I thought if true.

No.

[pauliewalnuts]

Paulie, you answered your opening question for me with rest of your post. If you're just going to keep on with the "everything is shit all of the time" stance then we're not going to have a sensible discussion. You appear to be allowing your need to win an argument on the internet get in the way of looking at things in any sort of objective way.

Not at all, I'm basing what I say on what I've seen this season, and it hasn't been pretty. The statistics also back it up. 38% of goals conceded from corners.

Being told I'm just doing it to win an argument on the internet rather than being a bit objective is a fine compliment indeed coming from you, Chris, he who loves arguing on the internet like no other.

[pauliewalnuts]

Is that stat true Ozz? We have only scored in 6 of 16 games? Its worse than I thought if true.

We've scored in 10 of 16.

[Chris Smith]

Paulie, you answered your opening question for me with rest of your post. If you're just going to keep on with the "everything is shit all of the time" stance then we're not going to have a sensible discussion. You appear to be allowing your need to win an argument on the internet get in the way of looking at things in any sort of objective way.

Not at all, I'm basing what I say on what I've seen this season, and it hasn't been pretty. The statistics also back it up. 38% of goals conceded from corners.

Being told I'm just doing it to win an argument on the internet rather than being a bit objective is a fine compliment indeed coming from you, Chris, he who loves arguing on the internet like no other.

You're right, I do enjoy a good argument but I try to remain objective. We're not always shit, we're not shit at every corner, some of our players do sometimes move off the ball, sometimes we do pass the ball well etc.

It's not all black and white and, in my opinion, the discussions are more interesting when polarised opinions are put aside and stances are not exaggerated to make a point.

[lukey27]

You're right, I do enjoy a good argument but I try to remain objective. We're not always shit, we're not shit at every corner, some of our players do sometimes move off the ball, sometimes we do pass the ball well etc.

Certainly factually correct that we're not always shit from corners. We haven't conceded a goal from every corner this season for example. But we've conceded more than any other team in the league this year, so it's certainly a weakness.

We've also failed to score from open play in 8 of our 16 league games this year, which doesn't look good when a very average season last year resulted in us failing to score from open play in 10 out of the 38 games.

Big problems at both ends of the pitch.

Coupled with us having pretty abysmal posession stats, second bottom I believe, it's certainly not great.

[Chris Smith]

I'm not trying to claim it's great, it clearly isn't, just add a bit of balance. We've conceded the highest percentage of goals from corners apparently but that isn't the same as conceding more than anyone else as our overall defensive record is better than a lot of teams.

[midnite]

And the more you look at the stats they're showing it's a big midfield problem rather than a defensive one. Not that the defence it without fault. But us being so lightweight and poor in midfield is putting more and more pressure on the back four. Maybe that's why Collins reverts to hoof as there isn't enough movement for him to get a good pass off an start an attack. Not having te midfield is also stopping the balls going trough to either the widemen or up to the attackers. Bent is a passenger this season but he has shown give him chances and he scores. We're not doing that.
I'm not saying one signing in midfield is going to solve all out problems. But we are so piss poor in that department and it's showing up all over the pitch

[olaftab]

Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.

Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner?

Let me think? West Brom, Spurs, man City, Sunderland and crosses from outwide  v Norwich, Manu and Bolton

[Chris Smith]

Zonal marking man to man marking I don't know what works but I do know that a corner against us is as good as a penalty unless the opposition make a mess of it.

Before yesterday when was the last time we conceded directly from a corner?

Let me think? West Brom, Spurs, man City, Sunderland and crosses from outwide  v Norwich, Manu and Bolton

I see, so to support your claim that a corner against us is like a penalty you're now including any cross into the box. Why stop there, why not add any pass that goes off the ground, or any made by a player that also takes corners?

I was asking because for a number of games we'd dealt with them pretty well.

[Chris Smith]

And the more you look at the stats they're showing it's a big midfield problem rather than a defensive one. Not that the defence it without fault. But us being so lightweight and poor in midfield is putting more and more pressure on the back four. Maybe that's why Collins reverts to hoof as there isn't enough movement for him to get a good pass off an start an attack. Not having te midfield is also stopping the balls going trough to either the widemen or up to the attackers. Bent is a passenger this season but he has shown give him chances and he scores. We're not doing that.
I'm not saying one signing in midfield is going to solve all out problems. But we are so piss poor in that department and it's showing up all over the pitch

I agree, I've been saying for weeks that the problem is the balance in midfield. If a player doesn't show for the ball hoofing it is the lesser of 2 evils compared to getting caught in possession. At Bolton all 4 of our midfield players had decent games and we looked a different side because of it. Obviously the quality of opposition makes a difference but it demonstrates that they are able  perform at a decent standard.

[citizenDJ]

I can see your point about the lacklustre midfield, Chris and Midnite, and I largely agree with it. However, I don't think it has too much of an impact on the poor efforts of our centre-backs when defending corners or free-kicks around the box. And while I can see the lack of protection afforded to them in open play, they are responsible for their shoddy positioning and over-eagerness to 'dive in' (although Dunne less so on that last point).

I just find it very frustrating that we DO have the option to try something else and we don't. Has Collins been so good as to be considered irreplaceable? Has Clark or Cuellar been so poor to be cast aside? I don't think so. When we signed Collins I was one of the minority that considered it a good buy, and I still think so in hindsight, but he has been pretty bloody poor for the last twelve months or so.

So why not try a different partnership at centre-back? Or why not bring back Cuellar to right-back to help out with our obvious weakness to set-pieces? I don't know if those things would work, but they might, so why the reluctance to try?

That, and any sort of defensive improvement in midfield (and I include the ability to keep the fekkin' ball in that), might just see us right. I thought McLeish might be onto something earlier in the season, for example, with the 4-2-3-1 formation; with Albrighton and N'Zogbia looking a bit more lively now, I'd be inclined to try that again.