woeful attendance

[Chris Smith]

Not arguing your opinion, because it is your opinion. However you are telling people they are wrong because your opinion of the word doesn't match everyone else s.

You only sing when your winning...

Well Chris asked for my definition and I gave it.  My point really was that the phrase is, in football terms, disparaging and offensive.  Which is precisely why people use it.

It's a convenient short hand rather than having to say "the type of fan who is only interested when things are going well and who will withdraw his support when he thinks his team might lose".

The only time I used it was to say that when that attitude is attributed to Manu fans they're called glory hunters. At which point you decided to be offended.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I've just done a bit of digging on attendances for all this weekends fixtures and corresponding fixtures last season. The list of factors possibly affecting attendance have been well documented numerous times in this thread, so are most of these factors consistent with other teams or just down at Villa Park? Heres the attendance figures:

Fixture - Att. 2011 - (Att. 2010) [+/-]
Aston Villa vs Wolves - 30,776 (38,965) [-8000]
Blackburn vs Everton - 22,826 (25,869) [-3000]
Liverpool vs Bolton - 44,725 (35,400) [+9000]
Newcastle vs Fulham - 42,684 (44,686) [-2000]
Tottenham vs Man City - 36,150 (35,928) [-]   
West Brom vs Stoke - 22,909 (24,164) [-1000]         
Man Utd vs Arsenal - 75,448 (75,227) [-]   

Quite clearly the largest attendance drop this weekend was at Villa Park with over 8000 lower than last season (over 20% drop). Even if you factor in the early kick-off and third home game, this is far excessive compared to the other 3 games that had a reduced attendance given all the other consistent factors.

In my opinion, the performance of the club off the pitch this summer in terms of appointing AM and transfer activity are clearly having a negative affect on attendance as seen so far this season and it cannot be ignored or denied with any kind of positive spin. Obviously further evidence with forthcoming fixtures will prove this to be true or false, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that we will see similar or lower attendances for Newcastle, Wigan and Baggies.

I'd say Saturday's attendance was nothing out of the ordinary.

Sorry, not read all the thread but go back to 2009,  you'll see the attendance for the bank holiday weekend was 32,917. I'm guessing Fulham brought as many fans as Wolves. This was, not that you'll need reminding, under the management of MON, a top six finish and qualification to the Europa League, after our highest spending summer window ever, a 3-1 win at Anfield and not a lunchtime kick off or live on TV.

Fair comment but all that merely suggests that Villa fans may be less likely to attend on a bank holiday weekend than supporters of other clubs, and to make it valid you would also have to compare attendances for all other games played on that weekend compared to previous season.

Like I said, we will see over the next few home games whether or not the August bank holiday weekend, early kick-off time, 3 home games and other factors mentioned had a major impact on the low attendance against Wolves, however I'm pretty sure fans are voting with their feet right now more than some people are acknowledging...for me, the bank holiday, early kick off and 3rd home game does not account for a drop of over 8000 for a Midlands derby game even if you factor in the cost issues which affect supporters of every club up and down the country.

Obviously if AM makes a few decent signings this week then we could actually see a rise in attendance...and I have all my fingers crossed that this will be the case.

Let's get this straight, Villa fans aren't fickle, they're bloody drama queens, a new breed of fan bought about by the 'nanny' club Lerner has created. If it wasn't the lack of transfer spend, it would be because the General didn't tell Randy to appoint the manager they wanted, the fact Lerner only has one Villa tattoo, why we're not spending as much as Spurs or why we have no free travel to away games. After hearing how Arsenal are to financially compensate their fans who traveled to Old Trafford yesterday, I'm almost certain there's somebody, somewhere, writing on a Villa forum, asking the General for his money back after our draw at the weekend.

[hilts_coolerking]

Is a better fan one who loves Villa and supports them regardless

That's certainly the one the moneymen prefer.  Like I said before, they would regard those fans as the ultimate consumers because they'll pay whatever it costs, regardless of quality and they'll never stop going.  It took businessmen a long time to cotton on to that but once they did, football was only going to go one way.

[CBAV06]

Not arguing your opinion, because it is your opinion. However you are telling people they are wrong because your opinion of the word doesn't match everyone else s.

You only sing when your winning...

Well Chris asked for my definition and I gave it.  My point really was that the phrase is, in football terms, disparaging and offensive.  Which is precisely why people use it.

Fair enough, of course some find it offensive. It mostly has negative associations, it's been used on this board for other fans and players without issue in the past so it seems a bit odd to try and redefine it now. I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.

[dave.woodhall]

I think your own personal ironymeter just blew up. Have a look back at your posts and see how many of them have been accusing me & Chris of insulting you. And while you're at it, check who uses the words 'better fan than you' most often.

Yes that would be none, Dave.  Perhaps I'll also check on who has been slagging off other fans for having the temerity to be less committed than you.

Really?

And the reason I've been posting is precisely because you've been giving it the 'better fan than you' sanctimony all afternoon.

And you don't regard yourself as a better fan?  Come off it.

Rubbish.  You've been sneering at people you consider to be inferior all afternoon.  Only now, when it has been pointed out to you by several people, you say "Offensive?  Me?  Never."  Classic Smith.

Whether it has been directed at me personally on this particular occasion is irrelevant; your attitude is offensive.

I think you'll find plenty of the sneering, 'I'm a better fan than you' nonsense on the main forum.  Some of it with your name attached, regrettably.

So there isn't any dog's abuse, you just made it up.

Of course there is, and you've been typing a good chunk of it.

[KRS]

I've just done a bit of digging on attendances for all this weekends fixtures and corresponding fixtures last season. The list of factors possibly affecting attendance have been well documented numerous times in this thread, so are most of these factors consistent with other teams or just down at Villa Park? Heres the attendance figures:

Fixture - Att. 2011 - (Att. 2010) [+/-]
Aston Villa vs Wolves - 30,776 (38,965) [-8000]
Blackburn vs Everton - 22,826 (25,869) [-3000]
Liverpool vs Bolton - 44,725 (35,400) [+9000]
Newcastle vs Fulham - 42,684 (44,686) [-2000]
Tottenham vs Man City - 36,150 (35,928) [-]   
West Brom vs Stoke - 22,909 (24,164) [-1000]         
Man Utd vs Arsenal - 75,448 (75,227) [-]   

Quite clearly the largest attendance drop this weekend was at Villa Park with over 8000 lower than last season (over 20% drop). Even if you factor in the early kick-off and third home game, this is far excessive compared to the other 3 games that had a reduced attendance given all the other consistent factors.

In my opinion, the performance of the club off the pitch this summer in terms of appointing AM and transfer activity are clearly having a negative affect on attendance as seen so far this season and it cannot be ignored or denied with any kind of positive spin. Obviously further evidence with forthcoming fixtures will prove this to be true or false, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that we will see similar or lower attendances for Newcastle, Wigan and Baggies.

I'd say Saturday's attendance was nothing out of the ordinary.

Sorry, not read all the thread but go back to 2009,  you'll see the attendance for the bank holiday weekend was 32,917. I'm guessing Fulham brought as many fans as Wolves. This was, not that you'll need reminding, under the management of MON, a top six finish and qualification to the Europa League, after our highest spending summer window ever, a 3-1 win at Anfield and not a lunchtime kick off or live on TV.

Other than the fact that the bank holiday weekend hasnt seemed to affect attendances at other games this weekend, the Fulham game in 2009/10 season only had a 3000 lower attendance of that for the corresponding fixture last season:

Aston Villa vs Fulham
Sunday 30th August 2009
Att: 32,917

Saturday 5th February 2011
Att: 35,899

Even if you remove 3000 to allow for the bank holiday and kick-off time, there is still 5000 that have disappeared from Villa Park. It is quite clear that most of these factors havent had such an adverse affect on attendance for other clubs so to use them as an excuse for our attendance is wrong...there are quite clearly other factors that can be only attributed to the conduct of Aston Villa that have had a more severe affect on our attendance.

[CBAV06]

Is a better fan one who loves Villa and supports them regardless

That's certainly the one the moneymen prefer.  Like I said before, they would regard those fans as the ultimate consumers because they'll pay whatever it costs, regardless of quality and they'll never stop going.  It took businessmen a long time to cotton on to that but once they did, football was only going to go one way.

I would prefer it too. Many on this board give other teams grief for their glory hunters, part time fans or 'people that decided to do something else for no reason'. Why does that change when it is our team? You can find threads nailing noses for 'shit support'...but it becomes a tactical decision that is smarter than another fan when we do it? Sorry, I am not one who changes my stance on an issue depending on who does it.

[hilts_coolerking]

I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.

I'm not sure that's right.  I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football. 

In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0.  In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.

The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games.  They just have different criteria.  No more, no less.

[hilts_coolerking]

I think your own personal ironymeter just blew up. Have a look back at your posts and see how many of them have been accusing me & Chris of insulting you. And while you're at it, check who uses the words 'better fan than you' most often.

Yes that would be none, Dave.  Perhaps I'll also check on who has been slagging off other fans for having the temerity to be less committed than you.

Really?

And the reason I've been posting is precisely because you've been giving it the 'better fan than you' sanctimony all afternoon.

And you don't regard yourself as a better fan?  Come off it.

Rubbish.  You've been sneering at people you consider to be inferior all afternoon.  Only now, when it has been pointed out to you by several people, you say "Offensive?  Me?  Never."  Classic Smith.

Whether it has been directed at me personally on this particular occasion is irrelevant; your attitude is offensive.

I think you'll find plenty of the sneering, 'I'm a better fan than you' nonsense on the main forum.  Some of it with your name attached, regrettably.

So there isn't any dog's abuse, you just made it up.

Of course there is, and you've been typing a good chunk of it.

I think a lot of that is from Golden Muppets.

[richard moore]

I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.

I'm not sure that's right.  I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football. 

In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0.  In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.

The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games.  They just have different criteria.  No more, no less.

I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.

I'm not sure that's right.  I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football. 

In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0.  In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.

The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games.  They just have different criteria.  No more, no less.

Sums me up perfectly Hilts. I don't give a monkey's what anyone thinks of me as a fan as a result. I've never ever met a gloryhunting Villa fan and it is always a fantastic pleasure to meet anyone of a claret and blue persuasion down here as you will be guaranteed they are the genuine article, whether they manage to go or not. Whilst I don't consider anyone to be a better or worse fan than me, I recognise that when the prizes are handed out such as LC final tickets, people like Frank who go all over the country home and away every week have a far more legit claim to be there than I do. That doesn't bother me one iota as I see it as being perfectly and utterly fair...

[hilts_coolerking]

Sums me up perfectly Hilts. I don't give a monkey's what anyone thinks of me as a fan as a result. I've never ever met a gloryhunting Villa fan and it is always a fantastic pleasure to meet anyone of a claret and blue persuasion down here as you will be guaranteed they are the genuine article, whether they manage to go or not. Whilst I don't consider anyone to be a better or worse fan than me, I recognise that when the prizes are handed out such as LC final tickets, people like Frank who go all over the country home and away every week have a far more legit claim to be there than I do. That doesn't bother me one iota as I see it as being perfectly and utterly fair...

Absolutely right.  When we got to the League Cup final and the FA Cup semi, I would dearly love to have gone but was perfectly happy to acknowledge that those who'd been going all season long should get priority.  No problem with that at all.  But equally I attach no value judgement to that.

[PeterWithesShin]

I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.

I'm not sure that's right.  I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football. 

In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0.  In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.

The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games.  They just have different criteria.  No more, no less.

I can only speak about my own viewpoint Hilts, and not for one second am I calling every fan who isn't at every game a gloryhunter. Be it money, work, distance, family, falling out of love with the game as a whole or any of the other many things real life throws up. A number of those have stopped me going over the years.

My use of the term is aimed at those who have stated that their primary or only reason for not going, be it on here, other sites, phone ins etc is a mix of who is the manager, things look shit, we aren't going to win anything and so on.

[CBAV06]

My use of the term is aimed at those who have stated that their primary or only reason for not going, be it on here, other sites, phone ins etc is a mix of who is the manager, things look shit, we aren't going to win anything and so on.

Pretty much the original discussion as I see it, before the debate over the term glory hunter added additional reasons.

[Steamin_330]

Where has Dave made that connection, that's purely your invention.

So why then are the fans getting all the stick?  I've not seen Dave, or you for that matter, offer any criticism of those responsible for the situation the club finds itself in, merely sneering criticism of those fans who for whatever reason have decided to stop going, as if its entirely their fault.  To use Dave's own expression: when in doubt, blame the fans. 

Rather than using stay-away fans as some sort of reason for the club's malaise, you perhaps ought to see them for what they are, i.e. a symptom of the club's malaise.

It's not a criticism of fans who "for whatever reason have decided to stop going". It was a specific response to the KFC analogy that we're merely customers and withdrawing your support because we're not spending as much. 

The point I tried to make was the playing squad is being sold off piece by piece to balance the books. I therefore don`t think it’s a wise move to ask the fans to pay even more to watch it.
As someone else posted the club needs the part time/fair weather/glory hunter fan (delete as appropriate) more than they need the club.

[hawkeye]

For me a Glory Hunter is someone who choses to support a Team that they have no connection with because they know that they are more likely than not to be able to cover themselves in reflected glory. Hardly the background of any Villa fans I have met . I will also accept that people who turn up week in week out regardless, are better fans than me. But calling those that are chosing to stay away Glory Hunters is offensive and naive.