Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: olofmilosevic on August 27, 2011, 05:23:48 PM
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what was all that about? 30,000??
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Sadly it's looking like the norm this season, with some sub 30k's along the way.
New North Stand, you're having a laugh !
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I'm surprised that many went. But then I am constantly amazed at the crowds in the premier league when I see what it costs and what sub standard fare is on offer with one or two exceptions
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What does it cost away fans to attend VP as there were loads of gaps in the Wolves section too ?
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Ever decreasing circles init? Club has no money - sells off best players - team quality suffers - lower crowds/revenue - club has no money. and so on.
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Was it a Cat A game? If so that was pretty stupid given it's a bank holiday weekend and on the TV.
Nonetheless, a truly awful attendance. There was barely anyone in the Upper Trinity.
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What does it cost away fans to attend VP as there were loads of gaps in the Wolves section too ?
A wolves fan I know said we were them charging £43 a ticket
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We've had a poor season and we've had a deflating summer which has seen us lose some very good players many of whom have not been replaced. Add to that the fact that some are uninspired by the managerial appointment and add to that rising disaffection with modern football, the recession, the kick off time, the ticket prices and it should be no surprise that the attendance was so poor.
We have a large floating fan base who seem to turn out when there is the feel good factor around the club. We had unusually good attendances in MoN's second and third seasons for example.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
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The attendance have been dropping since before last season.
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It is the lack of any atmosphere which has stopped a lot of my mates going.
They would stretch for the costs if it wasn't for the stewards clamping down on any attempts at generating noise and if some of the fans who turned up didnt just sit there waiting for something to happen.
You used to be able to go down and have a great time DESPITE the football , not any more.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
What glory exactly?
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The level of apathy resulting from the club selling two of it's best players, not replacing them, and appointing a manager that wasn't on anyone's wish list is reflected in the attendances, and the trend will continue. I'm surprised as many as 30K showed up for what was always going to be a dire match, and if the team can't score against Wolves we're in for a very long season and uninspiring season.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
What glory exactly?
What else do you call fans who attend when things are looking good, but fuck off when things look bad?
And I get what you mean, but if things were looking rosier down B6 there'd have been more than 30K today. It's more than just a case of floating fans who can't afford it.
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Disillusioned in our case. It's been a while since anyone could accuse a Villa fan of being a glory hunter.
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"Kids do you want to go to watch Aston Villa or go to Alton Towers for the day?"
"Last time we went to watch the Villa play Wolves it was rubbish - Alton Towers please!"
Fine by me - day at Alton Towers works out cheaper.
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I think some of the prices do need to be looked at. The North Stand is good value, but £43 for an under 16 in the Upper Trinity is just wrong.
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I thought it was a decent game. More good than bad.
If you'd rather go to Alton Towers than Villa Park, it says more about you, than the football on offer.
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personally i would pay £45 quid not to go to Alton Towers
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Edit.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
What glory exactly?
What else do you call fans who attend when things are looking good, but fuck off when things look bad?
And I get what you mean, but if things were looking rosier down B6 there'd have been more than 30K today. It's more than just a case of floating fans who can't afford it.
Floating fans are more likely to come when things are going well - that's one of the main reason they're floating fans and not season ticket holders.
It's too easy to call them glory hunters.
When Randy came, they made much about how ambitious they were for the club, they put money in, and crowds improved considerably.
Last season it went to shit, and this summer has been the most depressing one for a very long time.
How many of us would have believed it if, on the last day of last season, we'd been told "you'll sell Young and Downing, release NRC, Carew, Friedel, not sign Walker, and sell Luke Young, and the only signings you'll make will be Given and N'Zogbia. Oh, and you're going to appoint Alex McCleish as your manager"?
I'd wager none of us would have.
The way the club has gone to shit in the last 12 months is scandalous, depressing and very, very alarming. I've renewed, but I don't for a second blame anyone who didn't, or see people who don't want to fork out big money to watch a slimmed down version of the squad that struggled last season toil against Wolves on a Saturday morning as gloryhunters.
What we needed to do at the end of last season was work very hard to make sure we built on the positives of the last year (and there weren't very many) - to do whatever we could to make last season look like a blip rather than the start of a downward slide.
What we've actually done since then is the exact opposite, and it is all self inflicted. Short of also selling Darren Bent, I can't think of a way the club could have handled it any more counter productively.
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The attendance was a shocker.
3 games in week. Live on TV. People still on holiday. No discounts. Recession.
But most of all its a hangover from last season. A feeling that steady progress (albeit illusory) halted when O'Neill left. Also what is in my opinion a misguided feeling amongst some that the club made a mistake appointing the `devil incarnate` Mcleish.
Well the nature of football is that a few wins will soon bring back the fair weather fans to fill the spare seats. We have lost just one of our last 11 league games, so things cannot be all that bad.
25k - 30k of us will always be there pretty well come what may. Tommy Doc's statement that if you put 11 villa shirts on the washing line, 10,000 will turn up and watch them dry is as applicable now as it was in 1969.
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It is a combination of factors. But the one that simply cannot be underestimated is the decision to employ Alex McLeish as manager in the summer. Fans as promised have started to vote with their feet in protest at the boards decision and subsequent hands behind his back approach. People promised they would not renew if he was appointed or, indeed would expect refunds and that is exactly what is happening, add to that the likes of me who struggle with kids to afford anyway were not exactly persuaded to return after what was singularly one of the worst decisions since the appointment of Billy McNeil.
I was watching it today and simply knew we wouldn't score. It is no shock whatsoever that Bent is now feeding on scraps, already negativity in the approach is self evident. You just know even at this stage of the season that it will be average and no more than that. So what exactly is there in that to drag floating fans/armchair fans out of their houses during a recession.
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Great post Pauliezognuts. Sums up exactly how I feel. It breaks my heart to see the fans vote with their feet but the club's wounds are self inflicted largely.
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I agree with pretty much everything you say Paulie, it's been a probably only the mid 80s and the last DOL season have I felt as crap over the direction we seem to be taking as I do right now. Which is in part due thinking those days were over when Randy arrived.
But for approx 20% of our "support" to stop attending so quickly as soon as the going gets tough is shocking. And if they've stopped coming so quickly and easily because things are tough, then what else are they apart from glory hunters?
I'm not including those that can't afford it in the glory statement, i've been in that position where I haven't been able to afford to get to VP, but such a large percentage drop can't all be down to pure finances.
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I thought it was a decent game. More good than bad.
If you'd rather go to Alton Towers than Villa Park, it says more about you, than the football on offer.
This!! what a crap excuse! In my opinion if you would rather go to Alton Towers than down the Villa the you have no right to moan about crowds, the football or anything for that matter. I guarantee as soon as we put a bit of a run together you will change your mind! which I think falls into the above floating/part time supporter category!!
nobody likes a part time supporter!
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We have a small fan base in relation to the achievements of the club and this is reflected in the poor to mediocre crowds.
Plenty of smaller clubs in terms of history maintain high attendances through bad times (not that we’re in a bad time at the moment). We on the other hand still had poor attendances even when we were winning the title.
Aint nothing ever going to change that.
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I knew it was going to be poor but not that had. Under dolly the crowds were like that but under Mon they improved, now I think those supporters that came back have drifted again. It's not cheap to go down. I didn't bother because of the kick off time and I had a feeling. After seeing that today I'm not sure when I'll go again
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I agree with pretty much everything you say Paulie, it's been a probably only the mid 80s and the last DOL season have I felt as crap over the direction we seem to be taking as I do right now. Which is in part due thinking those days were over when Randy arrived.
But for approx 20% of our "support" to stop attending so quickly as soon as the going gets tough is shocking. And if they've stopped coming so quickly and easily because things are tough, then what else are they apart from glory hunters?
I'm not including those that can't afford it in the glory statement, i've been in that position where I haven't been able to afford to get to VP, but such a large percentage drop can't all be down to pure finances.
Things aren't just tough, though, they're tough and entirely self inflicted.
The club is abysmally run, they look utterly out of their depth, and people are starting to realise it. Look at that ridiculous letter Faulkner sent the other week, for example. I'd bet a large sum of money that, whilst that was intended to galvanise supporters and get season ticket sales going, it actually put more people off renewing, all it did was make us look like we're all about getting the money in - which is the absolute last thing supporters wanted to hear.
Throwing money at MON (not to mention paying off him and other managers / clubs) has got us into this mess. The problem is, it is increasingly clear that the only way they know to manage the club is to throw money at it. Take that away and they're revealed as utterly clueless.
If you asked me in May "devise a devioous plan to ensure piss poor crowds and shit season ticket renewal figures", I'd have come up with something very similar to what they've actually done.
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I dont see how any one can criticise fans not turning up, it is the only vote fans have got and they are excercising that vote. Dont blame the fans but look a little more closely at why they are not coming.
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I dont see how any one can criticise fans not turning up, it is the only vote fans have got and they are excercising that vote. Dont blame the fans but look a little more closely at why they are not coming.
Bingo.
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So you "don't bother" going down. You "had a feeling". You think "those supporters" have drifted.
And what are you?
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What is the average price of a ticket at Villa now I dont even know. But let's say it's £30. Firstly, £30 is a lot of cash during a recession. Add to that the piss poor fare on offer. Put it in relative terms. Compared to say the cost of a cinema ticket there isnt any. People now think the club are taking the piss literally. They didnt listen to their customers protests in the summer and went ahead with a frankly pig headed decision to appoint an average manager. For that decision you can expect average fare and average attendances.
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nobody likes a part time supporter!
What a stupid comment.
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Apart from two seasons quite recently, the crowds have never been there.
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Look at that ridiculous letter Faulkner sent the other week, for example.
Paulie, what was that letter about?
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nobody likes a part time supporter!
What a stupid comment.
Yep that is in the most stupid comment ever category
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We have a small fan base in relation to the achievements of the club and this is reflected in the poor to mediocre crowds.
Plenty of smaller clubs in terms of history maintain high attendances through bad times (not that we’re in a bad time at the moment). We on the other hand still had poor attendances even when we were winning the title.
Aint nothing ever going to change that.
I'm pretty sure only Man U and Liverpool had higher average attendances in 80/81. While some of our gates weren't spectacular, I wouldn't say they were poor in the context of the era, which was when attendances all over were starting to drop.
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A simple exercise for one of the statos on here...
Compare and contrast attendance figures for all this weekends Premier League fixtures with corresponding fixtures from last season.
This will help to show whether its other factors such as the bank holiday weekend or factors closer to home. Surely Villa fans arent the only ones that go away on bank holidays so if its a trend across the country then it will show in attendance figures. A drop of 8000 is massive and shouldnt be ignored if its isolated to Villa and as a direct consequence of the clubs actions during the summer.
Obviously factors such as 3 home games in a row cant be taken into account by doing this so allow a bit of leighway for that.
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I think the analogy with Alton Towers was more to do with the fact that Alton Towers is a really expensive day out, yet cheaper than Going to Villa park
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They could have all been at the 20/20 Finals? Oh well.
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I think the analogy with Alton Towers was more to do with the fact that Alton Towers is a really expensive day out, yet cheaper than Going to Villa park
Years since I have been to Alton Towers.I bet it takes longer to queue for a ride on the upside down twirly wirly corkscrew thingy than it did for me to get my free pie at the refreshment kiosk today .
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A simple exercise for one of the statos on here...
Compare and contrast attendance figures for all this weekends Premier League fixtures with corresponding fixtures from last season.
This will help to show whether its other factors such as the bank holiday weekend or factors closer to home. Surely Villa fans arent the only ones that go away on bank holidays so if its a trend across the country then it will show in attendance figures. A drop of 8000 is massive and shouldnt be ignored if its isolated to Villa and as a direct consequence of the clubs actions during the summer.
Obviously factors such as 3 home games in a row cant be taken into account by doing this so allow a bit of leighway for that.
Of the games played today, only our game, Dippers v Bolton and Blackburn v Everton had a corresponding fixture last season. Blackburn was 3K down on last season, i'd take an educated guess that the dippers would be pretty much the same as last seasons i.e. near capacity.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
Yeah, let's all queue up and deliver sackful of cash after sackful of cash to the millionaires on the pitch who couldn't give a fuck. I blame the fans too.
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I think the analogy with Alton Towers was more to do with the fact that Alton Towers is a really expensive day out, yet cheaper than Going to Villa park
Exactly. It's the opportunity cost of the money in your wallet. £120 to entertain a family of 4 over the Bank Holiday. What you going to spend you money on? 90mins that will bore the kids and wife for 90mins or a full day out at Alton Towers.
Guess that makes me an unpopular part time supporter because I'd like to try engage the family in my passion - fact is it can be a bit dull and very very expensive.
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Its the lowest crowd for any league game at Villa Park since 16th December 2006. 27,450 against Bolton.
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It was the lowest league crowd at Villa Park since 16th December, 2006 v Bolton (MON's first season), when the attendance was 27,450, but in mitigation it was a 5.15 p.m. kick-off, the penultimate Saturday before Christmas, and clashed with Madness playing at the NEC!
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I thought it was a decent game. More good than bad.
If you'd rather go to Alton Towers than Villa Park, it says more about you, than the football on offer.
Your inability to read and digest a situation says so much more about your good self.
It was choice given to family who saw the dross dished out at the corresponding fixture last session.
I except however you are much "better fan" than I am.
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ALITA: As well as seeing our first games in 1966 we manage to post the same thing at the same time!! O.K., you beat me by 83 seconds!
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
Yeah, let's all queue up and deliver sackful of cash after sackful of cash to the millionaires on the pitch who couldn't give a fuck. I blame the fans too.
Which millionaires on the pitch does that apply to now that it didn't apply to 2 or 3 years ago when 8-10K more people were turning up at VP?
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I think we need to take a step back and wait to see if the drop in attendance is a blip or a longer term problem.
Thier are a lot of potential issues that may have influenced the gate, including the kick off time, live on sky, bank holiday weekend, third match in a week without even considering the issue of the manager / board
The Newcastle game will be a good measure as it is a 3 o'clock Saturday match on a 'normal' weekend
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Is the annuned attendance at VP the number of tickets sold or the number that actually pass thro' the turnstiles.
Several ST holders in the TR Loer were absent. I was wonder if they were still counted in the total
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I think we need to take a step back and wait to see if the drop in attendance is a blip or a longer term problem.
Thier are a lot of potential issues that may have influenced the gate, including the kick off time, live on sky, bank holiday weekend, third match in a week without even considering the issue of the manager / board
The Newcastle game will be a good measure as it is a 3 o'clock Saturday match on a 'normal' weekend
it was a local derby, we were unbeaten, they bought about the same as last season, its an 8,000 drop and they were Villa fans
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they count the season tickets
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Not sure we can blame having three home games in a week. Blackburn and Hereford were hardly sell outs were they? Why were we still 10,000 below capacity against Blackburn?
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We can search around for the reason for the drop, but we will find that all the reasons mentioned will have affected the gate.
Their is not a single reason to explain it, and unless we can survey all the ones who stayed away we can only make an educated guess...
1. Economy coupled with higher prices
2. Kick off time
3. Live on TV
4. The manager
5. The style of football
6. All of the above
Perhaps we are just finding our actual natural support level?
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Is the annuned attendance at VP the number of tickets sold or the number that actually pass thro' the turnstiles.
Several ST holders in the TR Loer were absent. I was wonder if they were still counted in the total
Yes, they are.
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We can search around for the reason for the drop, but we will find that all the reasons mentioned will have affected the gate.
Their is not a single reason to explain it, and unless we can survey all the ones who stayed away we can only make an educated guess...
1. Economy coupled with higher prices
2. Kick off time
3. Live on TV
4. The manager
5. The style of football
6. All of the above
Perhaps we are just finding our actual natural support level?
well, the board will not be able to complain.
To go with their mediocre ambitions will be mediocre attendances.
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At look at the half-filled visitors section today tells you all you need to know. This wasn't Blackburn, this was the Wolves from just up the road - always a good set of fans and currently enjoying a good start to the season. Quite simply the price of watching football is far too high - unless that is addressed then crowds will continue to drop.
I am amazed that crowds have stayed so high for so long, but in the current climate they have to dip. Clubs cannot expect to carry on taking the Sky millions and then expect fans to pay full whack for a game that's being televised live. Anyone at the game today who also has a Sky subscription has effectively paid twice and it is wrong. Very wrong.
And another thing....
What's more amazing is the increasing number of people who pay a small fortune to get in, then after 35 mins disappear downstairs to come back up 5 or 10 mins into the second half with a tray of overly priced stinking chips. It's a fucking football match not another excuse to fill your face with junk - and if you ate less of this crap you'd be able to walk quicker when leaving the pissing ground afterwards.
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blame it on the chips
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At look at the half-filled visitors section today tells you all you need to know. This wasn't Blackburn, this was the Wolves from just up the road - always a good set of fans and currently enjoying a good start to the season. Quite simply the price of watching football is far too high - unless that is addressed then crowds will continue to drop.
I am amazed that crowds have stayed so high for so long, but in the current climate they have to dip. Clubs cannot expect to carry on taking the Sky millions and then expect fans to pay full whack for a game that's being televised live. Anyone at the game today who also has a Sky subscription has effectively paid twice and it is wrong. Very wrong.
And another thing....
What's more amazing is the increasing number of people who pay a small fortune to get in, then after 35 mins disappear downstairs to come back up 5 or 10 mins into the second half with a tray of overly priced stinking chips. It's a fucking football match not another excuse to fill your face with junk - and if you ate less of this crap you'd be able to walk quicker when leaving the pissing ground afterwards.
Me too. We have heard for ages that constantly rising prices and ever-changing ko times will eventually drive the fans away, and maybe we're seeing that finally - personally I think the general expectations about where the team will finish has more to do with it. In fairness, nobody could blame anyone that chose to stay away from today's match - it was awful, and this was against Wolves.
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I under estimated the McLeish effect on our attendance. Clearly a lot of fans are showing their displeasure in the only way they can.
I hope Randy is also having the same thought.
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I under estimated the McLeish effect on our attendance. Clearly a lot of fans are showing their displeasure in the only way they can.
I hope Randy is also having the same thought.
My main complaint with the appointment of McLeish was his reputation for turgid football...two 0-0 draws in three games, coupled with today's performance, and it looks like a genuine concern...and as for Emile in midfield, I mean, c'mon...trying it once we might forgive, but seriously, WTF?
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Mcliesh is playing Heskey in the same position that MON did
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I'm 38 years of age, I've travelled all over England and Europe watching Villa and had a season ticket since I was 15. I chose not to renew this season and I don't intend to go even on a match by match basis.
I feel so sorry for Randy, he is an amazing owner who has done so much for the club - the problem is he isn't wealthy enough and he's feeling the financial cost of giving O'Neill a free reign to do as he liked giving salaries of the likes of Beye, Harewood, Heskey etc.
I chose not to renew after the Collins/Dunne shenanigans last season, this on top of the stories of Warnock's alleged misbehaviour and the comments made by Stephen Ireland I decided enough was enough. I work my arse off and do over 50 hours per week to provide for my family. As times are getting harder I decided I wasn't prepared to give these millionaires any more of my money.
When we were going through that really shitty time last season and we were looking at relegation it made me think 'would it change my mind if we did get relegated?' - I think had we have been relegated I probably would have renewed, the arseholes would have wanted to stay in the Premier League and I would be watching likes of Barry Bannan, Chris Herd, Ciaran Clark and Nathan Baker slug their guts out for the club instead of the above mentioned arseholes.
I received a letter from Paul Faulkner in the week as i'm one of the 'chose not to renew' people his letter was completely uninspiring, and merely just a begging letter to attend the games when I could.
People are voting with their feet, it isn't so much a Villa problem, but a football problem. We aren't going to win anything, we'll finish somewhere between 8th-15th, we'll struggle to break teams down at Villa Park who play 5 across the middle, it's boring, it's dull, it's predictable. I certainly don't intend to fork out for a match ticket either when I can watch it on an internet stream for nothing or down the pub and have 3 or 4 beers.
My reason is nothing to do with McLeish, I don't like him particularly but I support (or did) Aston Villa - not a person.
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Perhaps we are just finding our actual natural support level?
Based on our lowest gate for five years?
We've achieved plenty of gates in excess of 40k since 2006, I could just as easily (and wrongly) say that's a better barometer.
-Three home games in a week
-Uncomfortably early kick off time
-Bank Holiday Weekend
-Cost
-Team strengthening (or lack of)
- And yes, an uninspiring managerial appointment
Are all factors, as many have mentioned.
Thankfully, we won't encounter the first three for every home game this season. The club have shown in the past that they'll drop prices for games, so cost can be remedied too - at least for a few matches.
For the other two, we have a few days to remedy the squad issue -that will have as big an impact as anything in potentially making the McLeish appointment more attractive to the support base.
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I am amazed that crowds have stayed so high for so long, but in the current climate they have to dip. Clubs cannot expect to carry on taking the Sky millions and then expect fans to pay full whack for a game that's being televised live. Anyone at the game today who also has a Sky subscription has effectively paid twice and it is wrong. Very wrong.
I'd like it if you were right, especially as the fans who actually drag their arses to the ground and pay through the nose are constantly considered insignificant while we have games changed at short notice so that Scum Sports viewers can watch them, but I think this seems to be a local problem for Villa, rather than a general backlash against the PL, as comparable attendance slumps haven't occured elsewhere.
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I think the club's new modus operandi is seeing the chickens come home to roost. If the owners show that they have no desire and no real belief, then that is picked up by the fans. Lots of people said that they weren't going to renew, and it looks like they weren't bullshitting.
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It's called the Mcleish factor. The board didn't listen, the fans voted with their feet. The drop is alarming 25% is a huge amount and huge dent in our ticket revenue.
People don't want to watch 0-0 draws all the time afraid.
Bet Randy wished he has listened now.
WDWM
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I was disgusted with the attendance to day. Too many fair weather fans support my club.
When they mentioned it on Sky Sports, I nearly jumped off the sofa!
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While i agree there is an AnyonebutMcliesh factor, the main thing is the percieved lack of ambition by the club. If AM has been allowed to spend the young and downing money people would have at least seen the club were trying whoever the manager was, and if Houliier or MON had the same spending restrictions i still think the attendances would have dropped. Bottom line is its now Proud history, iffy future.
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I was disgusted with the attendance to day. Too many fair weather fans support my club.
When they mentioned it on Sky Sports, I nearly jumped off the sofa!
We have a fair weather owner.
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Those delusional idiots on villatalk think mcleish has nothing to do with it.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
Yeah, let's all queue up and deliver sackful of cash after sackful of cash to the millionaires on the pitch who couldn't give a fuck. I blame the fans too.
Which millionaires on the pitch does that apply to now that it didn't apply to 2 or 3 years ago when 8-10K more people were turning up at VP?
The ones that were winning games, filling people with hope. Those guys.
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Those delusional idiots on villatalk think mcleish has nothing to do with it.
It might be me but I sense a troll.
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It is the lack of any atmosphere which has stopped a lot of my mates going.
They would stretch for the costs if it wasn't for the stewards clamping down on any attempts at generating noise and if some of the fans who turned up didnt just sit there waiting for something to happen.
You used to be able to go down and have a great time DESPITE the football , not any more.
Join us in L1 and the back of L2 if you want atmosphere.
Oh and by the way you either support The Villa through thick and thin or you disappear to Merry Hell for a Saturday afternoons shopping with the "loved one" or you turn up at God's Own Football Ground and support the team you profess to love.
If you can't be ars*d to do that then shame on you.
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Whilst the attendance was very low you could hear constant singing from somewhere on TV was that the Ultra's?
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
Yeah, let's all queue up and deliver sackful of cash after sackful of cash to the millionaires on the pitch who couldn't give a fuck. I blame the fans too.
Which millionaires on the pitch does that apply to now that it didn't apply to 2 or 3 years ago when 8-10K more people were turning up at VP?
The ones that were winning games, filling people with hope. Those guys.
So the fans turn up when the millionaires win games, but not when they don't. And the definition of a glory hunter is what exactly?
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Whilst the attendance was very low you could hear constant singing from somewhere on TV was that the Ultra's?
Yes.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
Yeah, let's all queue up and deliver sackful of cash after sackful of cash to the millionaires on the pitch who couldn't give a fuck. I blame the fans too.
Which millionaires on the pitch does that apply to now that it didn't apply to 2 or 3 years ago when 8-10K more people were turning up at VP?
The ones that were winning games, filling people with hope. Those guys.
So the fans turn up when the millionaires win games, but not when they don't. And the definition of a glory hunter is what exactly?
Or they turn up when there's hope and less so when there isn't. I don't get what you don't get.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
Yeah, let's all queue up and deliver sackful of cash after sackful of cash to the millionaires on the pitch who couldn't give a fuck. I blame the fans too.
Which millionaires on the pitch does that apply to now that it didn't apply to 2 or 3 years ago when 8-10K more people were turning up at VP?
The ones that were winning games, filling people with hope. Those guys.
So the fans turn up when the millionaires win games, but not when they don't. And the definition of a glory hunter is what exactly?
Or they turn up when there's hope and less so when there isn't. I don't get what you don't get.
Well as your point seems to be to agree with me, while at the same time trying to disagree with me, i'm not sure what i'm meant to get.
A glory hunter by definition goes to games when things are rosy. You agree. They stop going when things aren't as rosy. And you agreed to that as well.
There's 14 top flight clubs with little hope this season of winning anything, and yet so far this season it's only us that seems to be suffering a 15-20% drop in attendances. Personally, I find that having that large a % of our support turn their backs on the club so quickly to be more than a tad disappointing.
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The West Midlands has been incredibly badly hit by the economic downturn. When ticket prices have gone up, and investment in the team has gone down, together with the appointment of a manager with two Premier League relegations under his belt, and who has a reputation for playing dull football, simply writing off a poor attendance as being evidence of "glory hunters" is incredibly immature and shows a distinct lack of intelligence.
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So glory hunters rather than floating fans?
Yeah, let's all queue up and deliver sackful of cash after sackful of cash to the millionaires on the pitch who couldn't give a fuck. I blame the fans too.
Which millionaires on the pitch does that apply to now that it didn't apply to 2 or 3 years ago when 8-10K more people were turning up at VP?
The ones that were winning games, filling people with hope. Those guys.
So the fans turn up when the millionaires win games, but not when they don't. And the definition of a glory hunter is what exactly?
Or they turn up when there's hope and less so when there isn't. I don't get what you don't get.
Well as your point seems to be to agree with me, while at the same time trying to disagree with me, i'm not sure what i'm meant to get.
A glory hunter by definition goes to games when things are rosy. You agree. They stop going when things aren't as rosy. And you agreed to that as well.
There's 14 top flight clubs with little hope this season of winning anything, and yet so far this season it's only us that seems to be suffering a 15-20% drop in attendances. Personally, I find that having that large a % of our support turn their backs on the club so quickly to be more than a tad disappointing.
Well, as you say, we're not going to agree.
I think it's a bit juvenile to accuse fans of Aston Villa of 'gloryhunting'. What a fucking waste of their time when Manchester's just up the road!
Good for you, for what it's worth, for keeping on spending your money, we'd be nothig without you and people like you.
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The West Midlands has been incredibly badly hit by the economic downturn. When ticket prices have gone up, and investment in the team has gone down, together with the appointment of a manager with two Premier League relegations under his belt, and who has a reputation for playing dull football, simply writing off a poor attendance as being evidence of "glory hunters" is incredibly immature and shows a distinct lack of intelligence.
Most of the country is suffering an economic downturn, but only we have such a big downturn in attendances so far.
And I always forget, you're allowed to insult posters you don't agree with if you're a mod aren't you?
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The bigger decrease compared to other clubs is probably down to the level of expection. If you have an owner who a few years ago was claiming we were going to compete and then does a complete about turn, its probably going to mean an initial bigger drop off in crowds than say wigan whose fan base don't expect to win anything or compete. I would say after this season and last all thats left are those that have accepted we'll never be a force so the drop off will be less next season.
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its down to mcleish urgent action is required to preserve our fanbase
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The West Midlands has been incredibly badly hit by the economic downturn. When ticket prices have gone up, and investment in the team has gone down, together with the appointment of a manager with two Premier League relegations under his belt, and who has a reputation for playing dull football, simply writing off a poor attendance as being evidence of "glory hunters" is incredibly immature and shows a distinct lack of intelligence.
Spot on.
We had to choose, Villa or holiday. Last season Villa won. We didn't go away. This year we had 10 days away, and I took more joy from the wonder on my 3 year old sons face as he caught unsuspecting sea life and legged it into the sea fully clothed than I did at any point watching Villa last season. When money is tight, the product on the pitch is what SHOULD sell a season ticket for the cost that they are. Blind love for the team should not be a reason to blindly renew every season if the money could be spent on something that brings more fulfillment to you or your family situation. I love the Villa, I am a passionate fan, I generate noise and am very vocal when down there, but I will not be preached to by any fan that tries the whole you have to go if you claim to be a fan. Bollocks. Money and family dictate, and if there if are choices, and the choice of going down the Villa is essentially to watch fairly mundane football (it has been for 3 seasons, appointing ECk and letting Young and Downing go is not going to make it better is it!?) or spend that time with my kids doing something else significantly cheaper, Villa no longer wins. If the product improved, ie it was exciting, we won more, we had players that I would chose to watch playing football that is entertaining, I would reconsider. The blind faith bit should not be a factor, and the guy from retentions that rang me had this explained to him too.
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The West Midlands has been incredibly badly hit by the economic downturn. When ticket prices have gone up, and investment in the team has gone down, together with the appointment of a manager with two Premier League relegations under his belt, and who has a reputation for playing dull football, simply writing off a poor attendance as being evidence of "glory hunters" is incredibly immature and shows a distinct lack of intelligence.
Most of the country is suffering an economic downturn, but only we have such a big downturn in attendances so far.
And I always forget, you're allowed to insult posters you don't agree with if you're a mod aren't you?
and you are allowed to insult fans that are pissed off with what is happening to our club and showing this by not turning up as glory hunters
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Let's have a bit less of the insults from everyone.
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The West Midlands has been incredibly badly hit by the economic downturn. When ticket prices have gone up, and investment in the team has gone down, together with the appointment of a manager with two Premier League relegations under his belt, and who has a reputation for playing dull football, simply writing off a poor attendance as being evidence of "glory hunters" is incredibly immature and shows a distinct lack of intelligence.
Most of the country is suffering an economic downturn, but only we have such a big downturn in attendances so far.
And I always forget, you're allowed to insult posters you don't agree with if you're a mod aren't you?
and you are allowed to insult fans that are pissed off with what is happening to our club and showing this by not turning up as glory hunters
And I repeat, if someone is happy to go to VP when things are rosy and stop doing so as soon as things aren't rosy, how else would you describe them? I've asked more than once if that is not the very definition of a glory hunter because to me it is. It's not as if we're talking a max of a 1 or 2K drop off but so far in the region of 15-20%.
I use the term glory hunting because the majority of reasons given for not going are along the lines not liking the manager and we aren't going to win much. What else is it if it isn't that?
I can understand a tail off midway through the season if things are going as badly as some of think they could, but to do it from the word go? I've also said I fully understand that some people can't afford it, i've been in that situation myself recently.
I don't for one second class myself as "better than you fan" but to me supporting my club means doing so even when the going gets tough. I've seen the club looking far worse than this over the years. If we only went to VP when we played attractive football or looked like winning things most years during my time VP would have been empty.
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I could waste everyones time regaling you with the highs and lows of my time as a Villa Supporter.
!955 first ever Villa game. lost 1-0 to Cardiff. All the trials and tribulations between then and now.
But I have never wavered in my support for the football club that I love. And that means getting down to Villa Park at every opportunity. Even traveling from abroad in the late 70's to mid 90's.
I'm an OAP now but I still make a point of getting to as many matches as I can.
It's oh so easy in the age of the internet to sit at a keyboard and criticise what you see or hear on the web. Get your arses down there in the depths of winter or even on a day like today and maybe then some of your criticisms would have more validity..
Don't moan about the size of the crowd or the lack of investment in the squad unless you are willing to put your money behind what your fingers type.
And by the way, going back to that DOL banner....yes some of you are fickle.
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I am one of the so called but correctly termed 'squeezed middle'. For me it is undoubtedly to do with priorities of cash spending with three kids under the age of 10. I just came back from Tenerife for two weeks and its nearly cleaned me out. The fact is, I have to choose carefully entertainment. I am one of those who probably would find the money if there was enough to get me back there but frankly there isn't. So many things that happened this summer in particular made me have enough.
1. The headhunting of McLeish. Not content with not touching him with a bargepole - they actually went after him and flew to his holiday resort to secure him.
2. Downings treachery. I know it goes on all the time but there was something particularly galling about this little pipsqueaks behaviour.
3. Paying compensation to the shit for securing McLeish.
4. Becoming the Premier Leagues official feeder club. Bolton, Manure, Man Citeh, Liverpool.
5. Releasing all those players and only signing two and the board thinking no one would notice.
Are the main reasons.
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I don't for one second class myself as "better than you fan" but to me supporting my club means doing so even when the going gets tough..
But that's at odds with what you're saying.
To you being a fan means going all the time, regardless of how things are going.
To others, it doesn't mean going all the time whatever the reason, and whatever the reasons are, they're going to be easier to overcome when the football is good and things are looking promising.
To disparage the people in the latter category as gloryhunters sounds exactly like "better fan than you" to me.
There are lots of reasons the crowd was poor today, and none of them were the fault of the supporters - far more appropriate to look at the people who've run us so shambolically for a year now.
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Don't moan about the size of the crowd or the lack of investment in the squad unless you are willing to put your money behind what your fingers type.
What about those of us moaning who are season ticket holders?
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Brought a house last year, got married last month, went on honeymoon so am completely skint now. Couldnt give a toss about the ginger tosser either way. And as I've experience a lot of foreign leagues a have experienced many clubs including major clubs matchday experience, I feel like a mug pay the PL prices to watch what can describe simply as overpaid, couldn't care less wankers sporting our proud colours just because they have the PL label On them. The PL is nowhere near the best league in the world.
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I could waste everyones time regaling you with the highs and lows of my time as a Villa Supporter.
!955 first ever Villa game. lost 1-0 to Cardiff. All the trials and tribulations between then and now.
But I have never wavered in my support for the football club that I love. And that means getting down to Villa Park at every opportunity. Even traveling from abroad in the late 70's to mid 90's.
I'm an OAP now but I still make a point of getting to as many matches as I can.
It's oh so easy in the age of the internet to sit at a keyboard and criticise what you see or hear on the web. Get your arses down there in the depths of winter or even on a day like today and maybe then some of your criticisms would have more validity..
Don't moan about the size of the crowd or the lack of investment in the squad unless you are willing to put your money behind what your fingers type.
And by the way, going back to that DOL banner....yes some of you are fickle.
It is a very blinkered view. I am 29, and have had 13 season tickets. I am not there this season, with reasons almost identical to those put more intelligently above by the Fish and Chip man. Fickle I may be, but I have other priorities than a football team to spend money on, you have clearly been fortunate to have the disposable income to not have to make that decision.
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Can I just say, having kind of started all this, that I think those who go to every ame actually are better fans than those who don't. It's just the simple application of logic as far as I can see.
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Can I just say, having kind of started all this, that I think those who go to every ame actually are better fans than those who don't. It's just the simple application of logic as far as I can see.
What about the ones who can't afford it?
What about the ones who have to work?
What about the ones who live abroad?
I know people who go every match and never stop throwing abuse at the players and manager. What kind of support is that?
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By the way can I have my old moniker back now please moderators. I see Risso has reverted to type.
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By the way can I have my old moniker back now please moderators. I see Risso has reverted to type.
What was it?
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By the way can I have my old moniker back now please moderators. I see Risso has reverted to type.
What was it?
The infamous Kippaxvilla2.
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I don't for one second class myself as "better than you fan" but to me supporting my club means doing so even when the going gets tough..
But that's at odds with what you're saying.
To you being a fan means going all the time, regardless of how things are going.
To others, it doesn't mean going all the time whatever the reason, and whatever the reasons are, they're going to be easier to overcome when the football is good and things are looking promising.
To disparage the people in the latter category as gloryhunters sounds exactly like "better fan than you" to me.
There are lots of reasons the crowd was poor today, and none of them were the fault of the supporters - far more appropriate to look at the people who've run us so shambolically for a year now.
What I mean is you go as often as you can, be it a ST or 1 or 3 games a year if distance/money is an issue. A few years ago I could only afford about 5 games, and most of those were cheap deal games or cheap cup games. So I understand the money angle. But surely the fact it's such a large and sudden drop there's more to it than just the cost for example?
I'm probably as pissed off and disappointed as anyone with how things are going right now, but as I said, i've seen worse over the years. And as I also mentioned, if we only went because we played attractive football or looked like winning something, we'd have been playing in a near empty VP for the majority of my time.
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Can I just say, having kind of started all this, that I think those who go to every ame actually are better fans than those who don't. It's just the simple application of logic as far as I can see.
What about the ones who can't afford it?
What about the ones who have to work?
What about the ones who live abroad?
I know people who go every match and never stop throwing abuse at the players and manager. What kind of support is that?
It's the kind of support that, for a million good reasons, isn't as good as paying up and going to the match.
Incidentally, I live in London and rarely go to the match.
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The West Midlands has been incredibly badly hit by the economic downturn. When ticket prices have gone up, and investment in the team has gone down, together with the appointment of a manager with two Premier League relegations under his belt, and who has a reputation for playing dull football, simply writing off a poor attendance as being evidence of "glory hunters" is incredibly immature and shows a distinct lack of intelligence.
Spot on.
We had to choose, Villa or holiday. Last season Villa won. We didn't go away. This year we had 10 days away, and I took more joy from the wonder on my 3 year old sons face as he caught unsuspecting sea life and legged it into the sea fully clothed than I did at any point watching Villa last season. When money is tight, the product on the pitch is what SHOULD sell a season ticket for the cost that they are. Blind love for the team should not be a reason to blindly renew every season if the money could be spent on something that brings more fulfillment to you or your family situation. I love the Villa, I am a passionate fan, I generate noise and am very vocal when down there, but I will not be preached to by any fan that tries the whole you have to go if you claim to be a fan. Bollocks. Money and family dictate, and if there if are choices, and the choice of going down the Villa is essentially to watch fairly mundane football (it has been for 3 seasons, appointing ECk and letting Young and Downing go is not going to make it better is it!?) or spend that time with my kids doing something else significantly cheaper, Villa no longer wins. If the product improved, ie it was exciting, we won more, we had players that I would chose to watch playing football that is entertaining, I would reconsider. The blind faith bit should not be a factor, and the guy from retentions that rang me had this explained to him too.
Absolutely bang on ozzjim.
Far and away the best post on the subject.
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I don't for one second class myself as "better than you fan" but to me supporting my club means doing so even when the going gets tough..
But that's at odds with what you're saying.
To you being a fan means going all the time, regardless of how things are going.
To others, it doesn't mean going all the time whatever the reason, and whatever the reasons are, they're going to be easier to overcome when the football is good and things are looking promising.
To disparage the people in the latter category as gloryhunters sounds exactly like "better fan than you" to me.
There are lots of reasons the crowd was poor today, and none of them were the fault of the supporters - far more appropriate to look at the people who've run us so shambolically for a year now.
What I mean is you go as often as you can, be it a ST or 1 or 3 games a year if distance/money is an issue. A few years ago I could only afford about 5 games, and most of those were cheap deal games or cheap cup games. So I understand the money angle. But surely the fact it's such a large and sudden drop there's more to it than just the cost for example?
I'm probably as pissed off and disappointed as anyone with how things are going right now, but as I said, i've seen worse over the years. And as I also mentioned, if we only went because we played attractive football or looked like winning something, we'd have been playing in a near empty VP for the majority of my time.
Of course it is about more than cost - look at the shite summer we've had. Anyone with any semblance of a clue could have predicted rubbish attendances.
One question - you say money and distance are acceptable reasons to not go. is that it? What about the other things we have to handle in our lives?
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Can I just say, having kind of started all this, that I think those who go to every ame actually are better fans than those who don't. It's just the simple application of logic as far as I can see.
My work will not allow me Saturdays off, regardless of how much i've pleaded.
Does that mean I have to quit my job to become a "better fan"?
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PWS - It looks as though finally Villa fans have had some balls rather than continuing to put up with the same dross and bullshit year in year out.
The fact is, the ticket prices went up, the economy is poor and despite this, I am convinced that if the board of the club had given the fans the same hope and vision that the fans want, those fans would back them with support. You add the lack of vision, hope and radical introduction of conservatism, including one of the most dreadful managerial appointments then you can see why the attendance is so low. The fact is the board were warned about this in the summer by their customers and they did not take heed of it. It is that simple. These are so called businessmen, they are completely amateurish it seems to me. I have asked this question before but can anyone tell me precisely what Paul Faulkners qualifications are to run a £100m turnover business?
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I don't for one second class myself as "better than you fan" but to me supporting my club means doing so even when the going gets tough..
But that's at odds with what you're saying.
To you being a fan means going all the time, regardless of how things are going.
To others, it doesn't mean going all the time whatever the reason, and whatever the reasons are, they're going to be easier to overcome when the football is good and things are looking promising.
To disparage the people in the latter category as gloryhunters sounds exactly like "better fan than you" to me.
There are lots of reasons the crowd was poor today, and none of them were the fault of the supporters - far more appropriate to look at the people who've run us so shambolically for a year now.
What I mean is you go as often as you can, be it a ST or 1 or 3 games a year if distance/money is an issue. A few years ago I could only afford about 5 games, and most of those were cheap deal games or cheap cup games. So I understand the money angle. But surely the fact it's such a large and sudden drop there's more to it than just the cost for example?
I'm probably as pissed off and disappointed as anyone with how things are going right now, but as I said, i've seen worse over the years. And as I also mentioned, if we only went because we played attractive football or looked like winning something, we'd have been playing in a near empty VP for the majority of my time.
Of course it is about more than cost - look at the shite summer we've had. Anyone with any semblance of a clue could have predicted rubbish attendances.
One question - you say money and distance are acceptable reasons to not go. is that it? What about the other things we have to handle in our lives?
It should not matter the reason for not going if it is justified to that individual. Part of my thinking this season was based on expecting a little one in January, and knowing that the idea of any complications which we have had before with these things would leave the expensive season ticket unused for a period of time.
And those that go are better fans argument. Is this an on the spot, over a lifetime, etc. I would wager there are some fans that went in division 3 that don't go now for whatever reason and could be seen as better fans as they were there when attendances were rock bottom. It is a really difficult argument to cover off the angles.
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Can I just say, having kind of started all this, that I think those who go to every ame actually are better fans than those who don't. It's just the simple application of logic as far as I can see.
My work will not allow me Saturdays off, regardless of how much i've pleaded.
Does that mean I have to quit my job to become a "better fan"?
Oh look, read at my earlier posts in this thread - I'm hardly on the offensive.
However, the answer is yes. That's not your fault, nobody's doubting your love of the Villa, but some things are more important.
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Problem today is simple. A 3 o clock kick off would have added 5k to the gate. Also,the value for money.Two decent adult tickets with petrol,parking,pint,pie,peanuts,programme and anything else beginning with P will cost £100 easy. And thats for 90 mins.
Now what could you do with £100 entertainment wise?
2 tickets to the cinema...£25....decent meal somewhere nice....£45.......evening down pub £30. Thats a whole days quality entertainment for the same money.
For fucks sake, let the under 16's in for a tenner, generate some grass roots support and charge £20 for a decent ticket for the rest. We would have had 40k+ today in front of an enthusiastic crowd. Its greed thats killing the game,not the fans. I would love to go, I'm simply priced out,so I'll pay £12 to Villa Streams for 3 months of live football. Its a no-brainer for me and I remember watching the likes of Rioch,Lockhead and Aitken....Im claret and blue through and through but until things change for the better with the fans in mind,I'll only be going again if I win the lottery.
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PWS - It looks as though finally Villa fans have had some balls rather than continuing to put up with the same dross and bullshit year in year out.
The fact is, the ticket prices went up, the economy is poor and despite this, I am convinced that if the board of the club had given the fans the same hope and vision that the fans want, those fans would back them with support. You add the lack of vision, hope and radical introduction of conservatism, including one of the most dreadful managerial appointments then you can see why the attendance is so low. The fact is the board were warned about this in the summer by their customers and they did not take heed of it. It is that simple. These are so called businessmen, they are completely amateurish it seems to me. I have asked this question before but can anyone tell me precisely what Paul Faulkners qualifications are to run a £100m turnover business?
I agree with all, but the bold bit I posted about on another thread. If the club said this is not working, and we are going down a different route, with a strong wage structure and a 3 season plan to get to that wage level, with a priority on scouting 19-23 year olds with good reputations that can come in, be nurtured and sold on to continue a sustainable model for buying etc, the fans would buy into it. It has to be something different than plodding along.
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Sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post . I wasn't trying to come across as a "better fan than you".
I fully understand that people have other priorities above The Villa, family should always come first.
What i was trying to get at are the people who I know that for instance were quite happy to sit in the pub and watch todays game on TV. And when I turned up after the game they were quite happy to tell me what was wrong. Not just with todays game but with AVFC in general. Now if they can afford to sit in a pub and criticize The Villa why can't they be arsed to travel 5 miles and give the club their money?
Three of them come on here, they're the ones I'm calling fickle.
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PWS - It looks as though finally Villa fans have had some balls rather than continuing to put up with the same dross and bullshit year in year out.
The fact is, the ticket prices went up, the economy is poor and despite this, I am convinced that if the board of the club had given the fans the same hope and vision that the fans want, those fans would back them with support. You add the lack of vision, hope and radical introduction of conservatism, including one of the most dreadful managerial appointments then you can see why the attendance is so low. The fact is the board were warned about this in the summer by their customers and they did not take heed of it. It is that simple. These are so called businessmen, they are completely amateurish it seems to me. I have asked this question before but can anyone tell me precisely what Paul Faulkners qualifications are to run a £100m turnover business?
I agree with all, but the bold bit I posted about on another thread. If the club said this is not working, and we are going down a different route, with a strong wage structure and a 3 season plan to get to that wage level, with a priority on scouting 19-23 year olds with good reputations that can come in, be nurtured and sold on to continue a sustainable model for buying etc, the fans would buy into it. It has to be something different than plodding along.
Yep - agree entirely. This is also the worst part of the media silence policy of the current ownership.
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Those delusional idiots on villatalk think mcleish has nothing to do with it.
With a board name like that you have the temerity to call yourself a Villa Fan?
No matter who the manager is we support him and the team.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post . I wasn't trying to come across as a "better fan than you".
I fully understand that people have other priorities above The Villa, family should always come first.
What i was trying to get at are the people who I know that for instance were quite happy to sit in the pub and watch todays game on TV. And when I turned up after the game they were quite happy to tell me what was wrong. Not just with todays game but with AVFC in general. Now if they can afford to sit in a pub and criticize The Villa why can't they be arsed to travel 5 miles and give the club their money?
Three of them come on here, they're the ones I'm calling fickle.
Perhaps they font enjoy the matchday experience and feel they don't get value for money?
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Sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post . I wasn't trying to come across as a "better fan than you".
I fully understand that people have other priorities above The Villa, family should always come first.
What i was trying to get at are the people who I know that for instance were quite happy to sit in the pub and watch todays game on TV. And when I turned up after the game they were quite happy to tell me what was wrong. Not just with todays game but with AVFC in general. Now if they can afford to sit in a pub and criticize The Villa why can't they be arsed to travel 5 miles and give the club their money?
Three of them come on here, they're the ones I'm calling fickle.
Not really, coz sitting in a pub you can walk to and buying say 3 pints at the cost of £10 is still £20 less, less cost of petrol/travel to watch a load of shite in person, especially considering all those you are paying to watch only appear to give a shit how big their 'cans' are.
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I don't for one second class myself as "better than you fan" but to me supporting my club means doing so even when the going gets tough..
But that's at odds with what you're saying.
To you being a fan means going all the time, regardless of how things are going.
To others, it doesn't mean going all the time whatever the reason, and whatever the reasons are, they're going to be easier to overcome when the football is good and things are looking promising.
To disparage the people in the latter category as gloryhunters sounds exactly like "better fan than you" to me.
There are lots of reasons the crowd was poor today, and none of them were the fault of the supporters - far more appropriate to look at the people who've run us so shambolically for a year now.
What I mean is you go as often as you can, be it a ST or 1 or 3 games a year if distance/money is an issue. A few years ago I could only afford about 5 games, and most of those were cheap deal games or cheap cup games. So I understand the money angle. But surely the fact it's such a large and sudden drop there's more to it than just the cost for example?
I'm probably as pissed off and disappointed as anyone with how things are going right now, but as I said, i've seen worse over the years. And as I also mentioned, if we only went because we played attractive football or looked like winning something, we'd have been playing in a near empty VP for the majority of my time.
Of course it is about more than cost - look at the shite summer we've had. Anyone with any semblance of a clue could have predicted rubbish attendances.
One question - you say money and distance are acceptable reasons to not go. is that it? What about the other things we have to handle in our lives?
Of course there are other reasons that are acceptable. Which is why I said "as often as you can" rather than just, as often as you can afford. I did mean to end that sentence in my previous post with "for example" but got sidetracked!
As an example I worked in retail for years so couldn't get to many Saturday games. So I went to the games I could get to. There are a multitude of reasons why a lot of people can't make games on a regular basis, it's called life.
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Those delusional idiots on villatalk think mcleish has nothing to do with it.
With a board name like that you have the temerity to call yourself a Villa Fan?
No matter who the manager is we support him and the team.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I am standing up for what I believe in and what is best for Villa, as with the other 10k who now stay away. If you want to be disrespected and fleeced by some rich men in suits that's up to you. But that makes you the fool, not me.
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Can I just say, having kind of started all this, that I think those who go to every ame actually are better fans than those who don't. It's just the simple application of logic as far as I can see.
My work will not allow me Saturdays off, regardless of how much i've pleaded.
Does that mean I have to quit my job to become a "better fan"?
Oh look, read at my earlier posts in this thread - I'm hardly on the offensive.
However, the answer is yes. That's not your fault, nobody's doubting your love of the Villa, but some things are more important.
I sort of think I know where you might be coming from.
Did you mean that the fans who go all the time pump more money into the club so therefore are the better/more important fans?
If so I can see your side of the argument, though I do disagree with it.
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I don't for one second class myself as "better than you fan" but to me supporting my club means doing so even when the going gets tough..
But that's at odds with what you're saying.
To you being a fan means going all the time, regardless of how things are going.
To others, it doesn't mean going all the time whatever the reason, and whatever the reasons are, they're going to be easier to overcome when the football is good and things are looking promising.
To disparage the people in the latter category as gloryhunters sounds exactly like "better fan than you" to me.
There are lots of reasons the crowd was poor today, and none of them were the fault of the supporters - far more appropriate to look at the people who've run us so shambolically for a year now.
What I mean is you go as often as you can, be it a ST or 1 or 3 games a year if distance/money is an issue. A few years ago I could only afford about 5 games, and most of those were cheap deal games or cheap cup games. So I understand the money angle. But surely the fact it's such a large and sudden drop there's more to it than just the cost for example?
I'm probably as pissed off and disappointed as anyone with how things are going right now, but as I said, i've seen worse over the years. And as I also mentioned, if we only went because we played attractive football or looked like winning something, we'd have been playing in a near empty VP for the majority of my time.
Of course it is about more than cost - look at the shite summer we've had. Anyone with any semblance of a clue could have predicted rubbish attendances.
One question - you say money and distance are acceptable reasons to not go. is that it? What about the other things we have to handle in our lives?
It should not matter the reason for not going if it is justified to that individual. Part of my thinking this season was based on expecting a little one in January, and knowing that the idea of any complications which we have had before with these things would leave the expensive season ticket unused for a period of time.
And those that go are better fans argument. Is this an on the spot, over a lifetime, etc. I would wager there are some fans that went in division 3 that don't go now for whatever reason and could be seen as better fans as they were there when attendances were rock bottom. It is a really difficult argument to cover off the angles.
And that's a perfectly legitimate reason ozzjim, i'm certainly not questioning it, or the reasons that Gazza1982 gave, football is too expensive and has priced far too many people out of it. I didn't think I would be going much this season because of cost, but managed to sort something out that means I can go at present.
My glory hunter comment is based at those that would go if it looked rosy down VP, but because now things look shit, choose not to go. The important part being they choose not to go because we're looking shit, not because of other circumstances that life throws up.
For some reason people are taking it as being aimed every Villa fan not at every game, despite me making it plain it's for the reasons I just gave.
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I think the analogy with Alton Towers was more to do with the fact that Alton Towers is a really expensive day out, yet cheaper than Going to Villa park
Exactly. It's the opportunity cost of the money in your wallet. £120 to entertain a family of 4 over the Bank Holiday. What you going to spend you money on? 90mins that will bore the kids and wife for 90mins or a full day out at Alton Towers.
Guess that makes me an unpopular part time supporter because I'd like to try engage the family in my passion - fact is it can be a bit dull and very very expensive.
Another comparison. A couple of weeks ago I took the family to see the Lion King in London. It can probably be termed a magical evening, and which they will remember for years. For a similar cost, I could, instead, have taken them to watch Villa - v - Wolves.
I still regard myself as a fulltime fan/supporter. But I will readily accept that nowadays I am a (very) part-time spectator. One of the reasons is obviously now geograpical. But, even if I still lived within 5 miles of Villa Park, I doubt that I would attend more. Is that surprising when you consider that it now costs something like 900% more in real terms to watch a game now than it did when I was a regular in the 70's/80's. Yet, the "product" or "offer" can at best be described as turgid, and if Villa have a real good year they might get a good run in the Carling Cup.
The four of us are going to watch Harry Potter tomorrow. I am sure we will all be entertained, and have a good time. And I am sure I will get change from £30.
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Those delusional idiots on villatalk think mcleish has nothing to do with it.
With a board name like that you have the temerity to call yourself a Villa Fan?
No matter who the manager is we support him and the team.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I am standing up for what I believe in and what is best for Villa, as with the other 10k who now stay away. If you want to be disrespected and fleeced by some rich men in suits that's up to you. But that makes you the fool, not me.
I might take you a bit more seriously if you could spell McLeish.
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Those delusional idiots on villatalk think mcleish has nothing to do with it.
With a board name like that you have the temerity to call yourself a Villa Fan?
No matter who the manager is we support him and the team.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I am standing up for what I believe in and what is best for Villa, as with the other 10k who now stay away. If you want to be disrespected and fleeced by some rich men in suits that's up to you. But that makes you the fool, not me.
I might take you a bit more seriously if you could spell McLeish.
i just assumed he wasn't a fan of McLeish or relish.
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The fact is that the attendance wasn't even anywhere near that announced. Because, as posted, season tickets are included whether they attend or not.
The reasons for a poor turnout today for a local Derby are many and possibly due to unique circumstances such as the holiday and the kick off time but....
We appear to lack ambition.
After watching Spuds lately and especially the dippers today I can see we are slow and predictable in comparison with our competitors and why shout and sing for mid table. Again. In the third division we were there because there was a "cause". It was fun.
The stewards are ruining the fun factor.
However, above that the truth is that because we pay so much to these young men who do what they love for a weekly salary above most peoples yearly wage fans are becoming pissed off. And disaffected. It is simply becoming too expensive to go when we are not chasing something important and fans do not feel part of the experience. I mean you can understand a Father with a fixed budget asking: what is the point?
Give us a chance at a pot or two rather than another meaningless season and the fans would still enjoy and pay up, to a point ( see Liverpool). Ultimately, however imho, players must be paid less and tickets be cheaper or mid table footy will simply die. It is eating itself and forgetting who pays those salaries and yet has to compete.
Mid table, 'nearly men' Villa are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard, plastic, empty place.
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Sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post . I wasn't trying to come across as a "better fan than you".
I fully understand that people have other priorities above The Villa, family should always come first.
What i was trying to get at are the people who I know that for instance were quite happy to sit in the pub and watch todays game on TV. And when I turned up after the game they were quite happy to tell me what was wrong. Not just with todays game but with AVFC in general. Now if they can afford to sit in a pub and criticize The Villa why can't they be arsed to travel 5 miles and give the club their money?
Three of them come on here, they're the ones I'm calling fickle.
Not really, coz sitting in a pub you can walk to and buying say 3 pints at the cost of £10 is still £20 less, less cost of petrol/travel to watch a load of shite in person, especially considering all those you are paying to watch only appear to give a shit how big their 'cans' are.
If you think what is being served up at The Villa nowadays is a load of shite, can I recommend that you look back at our not too distant past?
1969-70. P 42 W8 D13 L21 F 36 A 62 . And we all know what happened next.
If we have a season comparable to that, then I'll concede that we are shite.
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Sorry if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post . I wasn't trying to come across as a "better fan than you".
I fully understand that people have other priorities above The Villa, family should always come first.
What i was trying to get at are the people who I know that for instance were quite happy to sit in the pub and watch todays game on TV. And when I turned up after the game they were quite happy to tell me what was wrong. Not just with todays game but with AVFC in general. Now if they can afford to sit in a pub and criticize The Villa why can't they be arsed to travel 5 miles and give the club their money?
Three of them come on here, they're the ones I'm calling fickle.
Not really, coz sitting in a pub you can walk to and buying say 3 pints at the cost of £10 is still £20 less, less cost of petrol/travel to watch a load of shite in person, especially considering all those you are paying to watch only appear to give a shit how big their 'cans' are.
If you think what is being served up at The Villa nowadays is a load of shite, can I recommend that you look back at our not too distant past?
1969-70. P 42 W8 D13 L21 F 36 A 62 . And we all know what happened next.
If we have a season comparable to that, then I'll concede that we are shite.
I dont wish to be disrespectful I really dont. But the comparisons are from very different eras and therefore are apples and pears arguments. Its a bit like me telling my 9 year old I would have had a clip round the ear, it doesnt wash.
The dross we are being fed is relative. Eg relative to todays football standards. We have a billionaire owner who is no longer prepared to invest. In 1969 Pat Matthews had only just invested his £30k or whatever it was. The club then went forward. But at that time the club was well and truly bankrupt as I understand it.
The fact is these days players are being paid up to £330k per week and still they refuse/cant perform on the pitch for 90 mins each week. It really isnt any wonder that the average working mans fan has frankly had enough.
Its coming not only to us but quite a few clubs in my view.
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Not willing to invest he spent 30 million in January 10 mill on Zog this summer that's 40 million plus all the money he gave MON. His sole mistake was the managerial appointment.
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Not willing to invest he spent 30 million in January 10 mill on Zog this summer that's 40 million plus all the money he gave MON. His sole mistake was the managerial appointment.
Stop being silly. Collectively he has received £55m from the sales of Ashley Young, Stewart Downing and James Milner and reinvested £18m (rising on England appearances) on Darren Bent, £6m on Makoun, £9.5m on Nzogbia and £3.5m on Given. Whilst relieving himself of around £10m per annum in wages from the players released. Whilst I do agree about MON squandering money on average players, those three just mentioned turned out to be very shrewd investments indeed.
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He's ran the club at a loss from his own pocket and supported us well financially. He's still running the club on a loss at his expense. My problem with him and other members of the board is that they don't seem to understand football on the pitch.
People calling for Randy to spend..do you really want him to splash more money on players just to play a negative 8-1-1 formation which won't get us anywhere. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at Mcleish it'll still be the same old stuff.
I'd rather he save the money and get a decent manager in with a vision (like Houllier). We might get some fans back then.
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The fact is that the attendance wasn't even anywhere near that announced. Because, as posted, season tickets are included whether they attend or not.
The reasons for a poor turnout today for a local Derby are many and possibly due to unique circumstances such as the holiday and the kick off time but....
We appear to lack ambition.
After watching Spuds lately and especially the dippers today I can see we are slow and predictable in comparison with our competitors and why shout and sing for mid table. Again. In the third division we were there because there was a "cause". It was fun.
The stewards are ruining the fun factor.
However, above that the truth is that because we pay so much to these young men who do what they love for a weekly salary above most peoples yearly wage fans are becoming pissed off. And disaffected. It is simply becoming too expensive to go when we are not chasing something important and fans do not feel part of the experience. I mean you can understand a Father with a fixed budget asking: what is the point?
Give us a chance at a pot or two rather than another meaningless season and the fans would still enjoy and pay up, to a point ( see Liverpool). Ultimately, however imho, players must be paid less and tickets be cheaper or mid table footy will simply die. It is eating itself and forgetting who pays those salaries and yet has to compete.
Mid table, 'nearly men' Villa are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard, plastic, empty place.
I think this is a very good post.
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He's ran the club at a loss from his own pocket and supported us well financially. He's still running the club on a loss at his expense. My problem with him and other members of the board is that they don't seem to understand football on the pitch.
People calling for Randy to spend..do you really want him to splash more money on players just to play a negative 8-1-1 formation which won't get us anywhere. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at Mcleish it'll still be the same old stuff.
I'd rather he save the money and get a decent manager in with a vision (like Houllier). We might get some fans back then.
If I didnt think you were a troll I might engage more with you. But for now, I will just correct you. All the so called money he has invested out of his own pocket is loaned to the football club so Randy isnt quite the philanthropist you have him down for.
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I'm well aware of that but that's normal he has still invested a lost worse owners out there in that respect. Chicken owners at Blackburn, owners at Birmingham City?
THE MANAGER IS THE PROBLEM
I'm not familiar with what a troll means sound like a word a public schoolboy would use talking to his parents about the boy at school picking on him.
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Those delusional idiots on villatalk think mcleish has nothing to do with it.
With a board name like that you have the temerity to call yourself a Villa Fan?
No matter who the manager is we support him and the team.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
I am standing up for what I believe in and what is best for Villa, as with the other 10k who now stay away. If you want to be disrespected and fleeced by some rich men in suits that's up to you. But that makes you the fool, not me.
I might take you a bit more seriously if you could spell McLeish.
i just assumed he wasn't a fan of McLeish or relish.
Mcelish ? I know, your pretending to be a drunk who doesnt know what decade it is and your slurring your words. You start off on a rant intending to say ...I dont want Mcleish ! But after 25 years of complaining about Doug you accidentally start reverting to your old mantra of....I dont want Ellis ! Or rather, because not winning the European Cup/Champions League as expected at least every 3rd year since our 1982 success the Villas massive failures made you turn to drink...so it comes out as elish !
Aghhhh 29 years of complete and utter failure...I dont want Mcelish !
Very good, I worked out your marvellously clever and subtle use of words to formulate your nickname. Or am I reading to much into it and actually your just a silly extremist who needs to learn how to spell ?
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The West Midlands has been incredibly badly hit by the economic downturn. When ticket prices have gone up, and investment in the team has gone down, together with the appointment of a manager with two Premier League relegations under his belt, and who has a reputation for playing dull football, simply writing off a poor attendance as being evidence of "glory hunters" is incredibly immature and shows a distinct lack of intelligence.
Spot on
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I'm 38 years of age, I've travelled all over England and Europe watching Villa and had a season ticket since I was 15. I chose not to renew this season and I don't intend to go even on a match by match basis.
I feel so sorry for Randy, he is an amazing owner who has done so much for the club - the problem is he isn't wealthy enough and he's feeling the financial cost of giving O'Neill a free reign to do as he liked giving salaries of the likes of Beye, Harewood, Heskey etc.
I chose not to renew after the Collins/Dunne shenanigans last season, this on top of the stories of Warnock's alleged misbehaviour and the comments made by Stephen Ireland I decided enough was enough. I work my arse off and do over 50 hours per week to provide for my family. As times are getting harder I decided I wasn't prepared to give these millionaires any more of my money.
When we were going through that really shitty time last season and we were looking at relegation it made me think 'would it change my mind if we did get relegated?' - I think had we have been relegated I probably would have renewed, the arseholes would have wanted to stay in the Premier League and I would be watching likes of Barry Bannan, Chris Herd, Ciaran Clark and Nathan Baker slug their guts out for the club instead of the above mentioned arseholes.
I received a letter from Paul Faulkner in the week as i'm one of the 'chose not to renew' people his letter was completely uninspiring, and merely just a begging letter to attend the games when I could.
People are voting with their feet, it isn't so much a Villa problem, but a football problem. We aren't going to win anything, we'll finish somewhere between 8th-15th, we'll struggle to break teams down at Villa Park who play 5 across the middle, it's boring, it's dull, it's predictable. I certainly don't intend to fork out for a match ticket either when I can watch it on an internet stream for nothing or down the pub and have 3 or 4 beers.
My reason is nothing to do with McLeish, I don't like him particularly but I support (or did) Aston Villa - not a person.
Very interesting post. Sums up how a lot of people feel, I think. I'd just add that although Villa's prices aren't bad in the overall Premier League context, they're still ludicrously high compared with other forms of entertainment. And, yes, it does hurt to be shelling out for millionaires' vulgar lifestyles.
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Liverpool & Bolton derby produced Anfield's lowest attendance for 7 years so doesn't that also tell us something.
After splashing all that money out where were the Scousers?
Let's get real perhaps RL is ahead of the game and can see that the gate paying public are less likely to stump up the cash for the second rate fixtures and perhaps players need to get real with their wage expectations when the average working bloke is having to make cutbacks to survive an economic downturn.
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Liverpool & Bolton derby produced Anfield's lowest attendance for 7 years so doesn't that also tell us something.
After splashing all that money out where were the Scousers?
Let's get real perhaps RL is ahead of the game and can see that the gate paying public are less likely to stump up the cash for the second rate fixtures and perhaps players need to get real with their wage expectations when the average working bloke is having to make cutbacks to survive an economic downturn.
Not sure where you got that stat from as that was virtually a full house at Anfield yesterday, less a couple of hundred. They had 35000 last season for a game when Hodgson was in charge, and regularly flit between 41000 and 44000
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I'm 38 years of age, I've travelled all over England and Europe watching Villa and had a season ticket since I was 15. I chose not to renew this season and I don't intend to go even on a match by match basis.
I feel so sorry for Randy, he is an amazing owner who has done so much for the club - the problem is he isn't wealthy enough and he's feeling the financial cost of giving O'Neill a free reign to do as he liked giving salaries of the likes of Beye, Harewood, Heskey etc.
I chose not to renew after the Collins/Dunne shenanigans last season, this on top of the stories of Warnock's alleged misbehaviour and the comments made by Stephen Ireland I decided enough was enough. I work my arse off and do over 50 hours per week to provide for my family. As times are getting harder I decided I wasn't prepared to give these millionaires any more of my money.
When we were going through that really shitty time last season and we were looking at relegation it made me think 'would it change my mind if we did get relegated?' - I think had we have been relegated I probably would have renewed, the arseholes would have wanted to stay in the Premier League and I would be watching likes of Barry Bannan, Chris Herd, Ciaran Clark and Nathan Baker slug their guts out for the club instead of the above mentioned arseholes.
I received a letter from Paul Faulkner in the week as i'm one of the 'chose not to renew' people his letter was completely uninspiring, and merely just a begging letter to attend the games when I could.
People are voting with their feet, it isn't so much a Villa problem, but a football problem. We aren't going to win anything, we'll finish somewhere between 8th-15th, we'll struggle to break teams down at Villa Park who play 5 across the middle, it's boring, it's dull, it's predictable. I certainly don't intend to fork out for a match ticket either when I can watch it on an internet stream for nothing or down the pub and have 3 or 4 beers.
My reason is nothing to do with McLeish, I don't like him particularly but I support (or did) Aston Villa - not a person.
Who said you were allowed to be me then? Brilliant post, absolutely how I feel. I just refuse to give up my very hard earned cash to such a morally bankrupt cause as the Premier League. The whole thing stinks from top to bottom and I could list a 100 reasons why my interest is waning by the day and would struggle to find 2 or 3 to justify any maintainenance of that interest. I'm torn between admiring people who turn up week in week out as fantastic, loyal fans and so much 'better' than me in that respect and thinking they are in fact bloody idiots...which I mean in a more general sense across all of the clubs, rather than wishing to insult anyone on here which would be the last thing I wish to do
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Am close to thinking this also. At times yesterday I thought about what I could be doing instead. I'm also going now out of loyalty to the club and because I have put in all the effort in the past 22 years. As said above it's Football in general not just Villa.
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I think the analogy with Alton Towers was more to do with the fact that Alton Towers is a really expensive day out, yet cheaper than Going to Villa park
Exactly. It's the opportunity cost of the money in your wallet. £120 to entertain a family of 4 over the Bank Holiday. What you going to spend you money on? 90mins that will bore the kids and wife for 90mins or a full day out at Alton Towers.
Guess that makes me an unpopular part time supporter because I'd like to try engage the family in my passion - fact is it can be a bit dull and very very expensive.
The Alton Towers analogy is daft in the context of value for money.
While you may spend £43 multiplied by however many family members for 90 minutes of entertainment at B6, at Alton Towers your days is broken down as:
3 hours walking around
3 hours queuing up
23.5 minutes of ride time. If you’re lucky.
I'd choose football everytime and Alton Towers on a work day. Maybe. At least you might get on Ripsaw twice. But then its never been a choice. Asking your kids whether they want to go to the football?
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The nonsense spouted about MCLeish being a factor is shown up by all the empty seats in the Wolves end.
It's the wrong game to use to draw any conclusions from as there are so many things that will have impacted on the attendance.
Third home game in a week and this was the most expensive, early kick off, live on TV, bank holiday weekend, middle of the holiday season, Twenty/20 finals day and so on.
Each of those will have knocked numbers ofF the crowd.
Edit: question for those choosing not to go. Do you ever join in with the chants of "where were you when you were shit" when we play Chelsea.?
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Earlier in the postings someone said the gate yesterday was 8,000 down.
Comparing our gates to the first two home games last season I'd say it's more 3,000.
First game last season v West Ham 36,600. Hammers brought about 2,300 more than Blackburn did so our 32,300 v Blackburn was effectively 2,000 down in terms of Villa support.
2nd game last season v Everton on the Bank Holiday weekend attracted 34,700. Everton brought about 1,000 more than Wolves so yesterday's gate of 30,700 was 3,000 down on that in terms of Villa support.
I would imagine that a 3,000 loss in support is about what the club would have been half expecting in the financial climate and with the negative mood of fans due to a combination things such as a perceived lack of ambition etc.
What the club now have to do though is address those problems. Pricing will only get cut if the outgoings come down - and the transfer fees/wages budget is clearly being tackled right now. And a manager has been appointed who is seen by the club as someone who can work within the tighter financial straits and eventually turn some of the doubters around by results on the pitch.
At least I hope thats the plan!
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For whatever reason,staying at home is the only way fans can really make a protest. If other clubs attendances fall,then hopefully owners will realise that people have had enough of paying over the top prices,and that players wages have become obscene.
But it needs virtually all of the clubs to do it,plenty of empty seats on the live matches won't look good on that cnut Schudamore next time he's in bed with the foregn T.V companies trying to get more dough out of them.
But the trouble is that its easier to stay at home when your club isnt doing so well,or playing good football,when your in the top six and on cup runs,people will somehow find the money.
When Old Trafford and the Emirates are ten thousand or so down,then things may change.
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I was astounded when that number was announced, didn't look that empty to me.
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Liverpool & Bolton derby produced Anfield's lowest attendance for 7 years so doesn't that also tell us something.
After splashing all that money out where were the Scousers?
Let's get real perhaps RL is ahead of the game and can see that the gate paying public are less likely to stump up the cash for the second rate fixtures and perhaps players need to get real with their wage expectations when the average working bloke is having to make cutbacks to survive an economic downturn.
Not sure where you got that stat from as that was virtually a full house at Anfield yesterday, less a couple of hundred. They had 35000 last season for a game when Hodgson was in charge, and regularly flit between 41000 and 44000
sorry misread the the BBC report, that was the attendance for last year.. :-[
Still stick by the rest of the post though
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I think the analogy with Alton Towers was more to do with the fact that Alton Towers is a really expensive day out, yet cheaper than Going to Villa park
Exactly. It's the opportunity cost of the money in your wallet. £120 to entertain a family of 4 over the Bank Holiday. What you going to spend you money on? 90mins that will bore the kids and wife for 90mins or a full day out at Alton Towers.
Guess that makes me an unpopular part time supporter because I'd like to try engage the family in my passion - fact is it can be a bit dull and very very expensive.
The Alton Towers analogy is daft in the context of value for money.
While you may spend £43 multiplied by however many family members for 90 minutes of entertainment at B6, at Alton Towers your days is broken down as:
3 hours walking around
3 hours queuing up
23.5 minutes of ride time. If you’re lucky.
I'd choose football everytime and Alton Towers on a work day. Maybe. At least you might get on Ripsaw twice. But then its never been a choice. Asking your kids whether they want to go to the football?
Did you see 23.5 minutes of entertaining football yesterday at Villa Park by any chance.
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We've had a poor season and we've had a deflating summer which has seen us lose some very good players many of whom have not been replaced. Add to that the fact that some are uninspired by the managerial appointment and add to that rising disaffection with modern football, the recession, the kick off time, the ticket prices and it should be no surprise that the attendance was so poor.
We have a large floating fan base who seem to turn out when there is the feel good factor around the club. We had unusually good attendances in MoN's second and third seasons for example.
Spot on.
Apart from when he quit, which, when aided by GH's appointmentment, condemned the team to a season of struggle, I can't understand the dissolutionment with MON that I've read on many occasions. He could see what was coming and after the hype and ambition that abounded when RL arrived I think he had justification to leave.
Instead of being alongside Spurs, we now aspire to be with the likes of Stoke and Bolton. In two or three seasons there will be re-balance in the Premiership and we may be nack in the mix. But until then ...
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Edit: question for those choosing not to go. Do you ever join in with the chants of "where were you when you were shit" when we play Chelsea.?
No.
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Chris you include a number of factors but don't include McLeish as being a single one of them. Surely he has to be included. Whatever way you decide to use stats, the fact is our average attendance across the last 5 seasons has been 38,000. Two games in and we are at 31,000. It's a worrying sign whichever way you look at it.
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Agree with Ozzjim wholeheartedly.
Used to be a season ticket holder before uni, and last season I went about 15 times at home, more than usual despite the shite offerings on the pitch. However, this was because I got freebies from a mate. I only paid once, and that was the FA Cup game v Blackburn for the umpteenth rematch.
If I didn't have these freebies, would I go? Would I shite! And not because I've stopped supporting them, stopped scanning the news feeds for Positive Villa news, stopped analysing every result/squad/team selection and how we could possibly get better with a little tweak, stopped getting in a right old arse when we lose/draw games we SHOULD win. But because I had a little check and realised for every free ticket I got, it should have cost £37. That is unbelievable. Money I would rather spend with the Mrs/Having a few beers/Putting fuel in the blood car etc. Priorities have changed!
And to think we really arent an expensive club to support!
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Of course appointing McLeish is going to have an impact on crowds, it sent out a very clear message that we were no longer looking to compete at the very top of the table
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A lot's been mentioned on this thread about the varying reasons fans aren't, or don't seem to be attending.
I've had a season ticket consecutively for over 20 years... must admit, this season I probably wouldn't have renewed if GH was still in charge.
I was a tad dismayed by AM's appointment, however, those 500-1000 idiots (making our great club look as pathetic as Newcastle) protesting like oiks swung my decision to renew, as I support Aston Villa, always have, always will. Not the manager, players, owner or any variable that sits in whatever hot seat in the Aston Lower grounds.
Saying that... I totally understand and agree with any fan that doesn't wish to attend VP at the moment.
And why should they? Even if said fan has adequate income to sustain both a season ticket & a life, why should they either a) spend £500ish on what is going to be a shit season, or b) £40+ expenses on a match by match basis for what is going to be, more often than not this year - a shit game.
Every club, would go through the same. We can't really compare ourselves with Manure, Arse, L'pool etc. as their added support comes from a world wide plethora of tourists and the fact that they've saturated the English footballing history books since the 1970's. Whereas, in reality - apart from ten years spanning '75 - '85 our success has been, well... nothing short of a distant memory since 1910.
Yesterday's disgusting attendance was helped (no doubt) by the ko time. 12.00 (unless we're playing the Chernobylised morons from Small Heath) is a pitiful time to kick off any game.
But as for a decrease in attendances this season, i'm neither surprised nor can / will I blame supporters who stay away.
Football's too expensive, it's being destroyed by Sky, arab sheiks, impatient Russians, greedy agents etc. and will continue to implode. This is just the start.
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I think we have to look more widely at the relative success or failure of the Villa marketing dept.
We have had a few dropped bollocks recently... the delay in last seasons kit launch, another new kit this year, a hardly inspiring letter from the club detailing our ambition to be in the top 20 revenue generating clubs, the delay in getting the new sponsor in place before the kit was sent out to be sold...
Not to mention the complete arse the club looked over the manager appointment (last season and this!)
Added to that the departures of our better players.
The club also completely fail to Market properly our achievements, if you have been on the stadium tour you will find that thier is NO trophy cabinet showing the FA Cups, League Cups, European cups etc... Why not?????
It's all well and good to Market ourselves in the far east, but in reality how many of those people will attend a atch in person? So the objective of the far easy tour was not to generate revenue via ticket sales but through other means.
I live in Telford (only 32 miles from Villa Park) and Villa are pretty much invisible, which is a shame as thier are allot of Villa Fans who live over this way.
If he club wants to increase attendances with keeping to the current spending reduction policy then they need to attract new followers to Villa Park to replace those that don't attend any longer. We are loosing potential new supporters to Man United / Liverpool / Man City / Chelsea. You only have to look at the shirts bring worn by the Aston local kids on match days to see that we have failed to appeal!
I think the Villa marketing dept really needs to look at how it's operating and a change of objectives is needed
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The club also completely fail to Market properly our achievements, if you have been on the stadium tour you will find that thier is NO trophy cabinet showing the FA Cups, League Cups, European cups etc... Why not?????
Perhaps the most 'hit the nail on the head' point I've read...
Addition to this, why are our honours restricted to a 2x4" column in the match programme. Just below the VP staff list and above the contact numbers???
Surely the 4th most successful club in England should proudly display this fact in it's matchday souvenir programme a tad more noticeably??????
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Chris you include a number of factors but don't include McLeish as being a single one of them. Surely he has to be included. Whatever way you decide to use stats, the fact is our average attendance across the last 5 seasons has been 38,000. Two games in and we are at 31,000. It's a worrying sign whichever way you look at it.
"McLeish isn't a factor" is a pretty naive way of looking at it.
The biggest factor is the downscaling of ambition of the club over the summer. McLeish being appointed manager is one part of that, so of course it is a factor.
When we started looking for a manager, we were talking about Ancelotti, Benitez, managers of that level. A short while later we were surprised to find we'd been turned down by Roberto Martinez of all people. Then we end up with AM. Tryi shifting season tickets on the back of that.
Now, personally, although I think it was a bewildering appointment, I'll give him a go, not get on his back and hope he proves me wrong, but it strikes me as utterly head-in-the-sand stuff to think his appointment isn't something to do with the collapse of our crowds.
I have to say, also, throwing in things like the 20/20 cricket, the school holidays etc etc sounds a little bit like what we'd take the piss out of the noses for when they got shit crowds. Pretty soon, someone will mention the Rover closing.
When there was ambition shown, we got 40k plus regularly. Now we're showing less ambition than anyone in the market this summer and we're not getting the crowds. To pretend there's no connection is daft.
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It's called the Mcleish factor. The board didn't listen, the fans voted with their feet. The drop is alarming 25% is a huge amount and huge dent in our ticket revenue.
People don't want to watch 0-0 draws all the time afraid.
Bet Randy wished he has listened now.
WDWM
best post for ages!!
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Football's too expensive, it's being destroyed by Sky, arab sheiks, impatient Russians, greedy agents etc. and will continue to implode. This is just the start.
This has to be the bottom line. I can take Villa being rubbish. We've been rubbish for most of my life. I'm now totally inured to selling our best players - it was painful getting rid of Dwight Yorke; Barry and Milner going was a mild blow by comparison, but by the time Ash and Downing went I was completely numb to it.
I can now live with the fact that we will never win the Premier League (in its current format) and almost certainly will never qualify for the Champions League. I'm conditioned to accept that the domestic cups are our only hope - but will not be taken as seriously as Premier League survival. And I'm totally used to the fact that we will never get any real recognition from the national media.
I can live with all that, and would still be more than happy to turn up and support my club week in week out. But I simply can't justify it at that price. The die is already cast. It is an uneven playing field - the game is rigged. And very little will change until football either implodes or reinvents itself.
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The club also completely fail to Market properly our achievements, if you have been on the stadium tour you will find that thier is NO trophy cabinet showing the FA Cups, League Cups, European cups etc... Why not?????
Perhaps the most 'hit the nail on the head' point I've read...
Addition to this, why are our honours restricted to a 2x4" column in the match programme. Just below the VP staff list and above the contact numbers???
Surely the 4th most successful club in England should proudly display this fact in it's matchday souvenir programme a tad more noticeably??????
I'm not sure that the lack of a trophy cabinet makes much difference when deciding whether to go the game or not.
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I have to say, also, throwing in things like the 20/20 cricket, the school holidays etc etc sounds a little bit like what we'd take the piss out of the noses for when they got shit crowds. Pretty soon, someone will mention the Rover closing.
I know people who had tickets to the cricket yesterday that might otherwise have gone down the Villa. Also I know it's difficult to fathom but I know people who are away on holiday at the moment, making their attendance at VP difficult. That's why crowds are always lower in August. My point was that there were so many mitigating factors yesterday it is wrong to draw any firm conclusions.
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not having a trophy cabinet does not on it's own effect the attendance, but it does show a symptom of the failure of the marketing dept
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The points that villa-oldie and Jimbo both make are spot on. To my mind the amazing thing is not so much that attendances appear to be heading south, but that they have remained as high as they have, for as long as they have.
I, too, am now immune to seasons of mediocrity, selling out best players, uninspiring managerial appointments, etc, etc. I've seen it all before. However, what I find increasingly difficult to take is the sense of just making up the numbers. If you're a Villa, Everton or, to a lesser extent, Spurs, all ever-presents in the Premier League, but for most of that time an also-ran, really what is the point? Nine months of forking out £40 every other week to see an ever changing cast of itinerant millionaires huffing and puffing their way to an eighth-place finish.
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Clearly one way to put this right is for McLeish and our millionaires to over achieve. Hang around 4/5/6 till xmas and fans will return the gloom will lift and we will all be happy.
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I have to say, also, throwing in things like the 20/20 cricket, the school holidays etc etc sounds a little bit like what we'd take the piss out of the noses for when they got shit crowds. Pretty soon, someone will mention the Rover closing.
I know people who had tickets to the cricket yesterday that might otherwise have gone down the Villa. Also I know it's difficult to fathom but I know people who are away on holiday at the moment, making their attendance at VP difficult. That's why crowds are always lower in August. My point was that there were so many mitigating factors yesterday it is wrong to draw any firm conclusions.
It's not "difficult to fathom" at all, clearly people will have been on holiday, and clearly some of your mates were down the cricket, but what's plain to see is that we had our lowest league crowd for five years, a week after what was probably another one of our lowest crowds for five years.
We've also got 21,000 season ticket holders, not the 27,000 we had last year.
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The thing is were most probably going to finish between 8th and 12th, if we did it by playing entertaining attacking football then I think the majority would accept that, however it looks as if were going to be taking the well organised way and picking athletes over technically gifted players, its just so uninspiring.
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27,000 was the year before last. Last season I think we were at around 24,000 at most. Still a 3,000 season-on-season fall.
To blame or to excuse any one individual factor is very wrong. People are unhappy with the managerial appointment and the financial retrenchment. To say that is the only factor or not a factor at all is wide of the mark as the people who have given up their season tickets who have posted on this thread have quoted it as a reason. However, equally some of them quote other reasons such as the cost as being far more important.
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I don't go simply because of cost and match day experience. I can spend a lot less than £40 and waste 2 hours being bored stiff and sitting In silence.
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There's a great thread over on VT. Well worth a read, on this very subject. The club have treated fans with a lack of respect this summer, in fact, the board have made error after error over the years and are now punishing us/McLeish for the spending of Martin O'Neill.
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The whole "going to the Villa" and even watching football on Sky just doesn't have the same magic anymore. I don't wake up with butterflies and that excitement in my stomach and haven't for the last couple of years to be honest.
I get to as many games as I can, but nowhere near as many as before, and to be frank going to see the Villa is now more of an inconvenience (travelling an hour round trip, struggling for money because I've gone to games and paid petrol etc) than anything else. Its not fun any more.
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The whole "going to the Villa" and even watching football on Sky just doesn't have the same magic anymore. I don't wake up with butterflies and that excitement in my stomach and haven't for the last couple of years to be honest.
I get to as many games as I can, but nowhere near as many as before, and to be frank going to see the Villa is now more of an inconvenience (travelling an hour round trip, struggling for money because I've gone to games and paid petrol etc) than anything else. Its not fun any more.
I haven't loved going since about '98, and the enjoyment has slowly seeped away more and more since, with a slight upward curve around the middle of O Neills tunure. I am now less interested than ever, at least in the last few years under Ellis there was the likelyhood of him selling up, which happened. It now feels like we are back to square one. I no longer go and probably won't for a long time.
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The whole "going to the Villa" and even watching football on Sky just doesn't have the same magic anymore. I don't wake up with butterflies and that excitement in my stomach and haven't for the last couple of years to be honest.
I get to as many games as I can, but nowhere near as many as before, and to be frank going to see the Villa is now more of an inconvenience (travelling an hour round trip, struggling for money because I've gone to games and paid petrol etc) than anything else. Its not fun any more.
You appear to have a condition known as "getting older".
I like going to football and years ago came to terms with there being bad times as well as good but consider it part and parcel of being a fan.
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There's a great thread over on VT. Well worth a read, on this very subject. The club have treated fans with a lack of respect this summer, in fact, the board have made error after error over the years and are now punishing us/McLeish for the spending of Martin O'Neill.
If that's what's being said on Villatalk there's some historical revisionism going on and no mistake.
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I can't go down at all at the moment, my shift pattern at work dictates that I'm on shift Wednesday evenings and all day Saturdays. Having said that, I didn't go down on Tuesday night either because I spent an obscene amount of money out on the lash in town the previous weekend.
I'll never be able to stay away from VP for too long, but for me the board have shit the bin completely this summer and I don't blame people for looking for other things to do. Not replacing two of our main attacking players, not to mention letting the spine of an entire team go, and appointing a crap manager have made me feel that they're not really bothered about trying to make the team competitive and therefore I'll be picking and choosing my games.
If they want fans to stump up cash all the while then sooner or later they're going to have to show some ambition. I think they're looking to sell though.
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I went Tuesday night and even though it was a tenner a ticket I still somehow managed to get through £50. I have a wife and 2 kids and struggle to justify to myself the expense of going to matches. there may well be a percentage of fans staying away due to the current gloom around the place but I think the financial situation people find themselves in at the moment has a lot more to do with it.
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
The problem is that Doug is still pulling the strings.
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For me it's mainly the cost that stops me from going to every home game. I had a season ticket from the late 70s all the way up to the year 2000, so I've seen good times and bad, but even during the rubbish of the mid 80s I was never overly bothered that we were crap, I just loved going down the match, going to the Guild pub in Aston for a few beers, meeting up with mates on the Holte, having a crack and it still didn't break the bank like now.
I started to get disillusioned when the ground became all seater. No longer could you just rock up to the ground and meet up with mates and enjoy the game. As soon as the Taylor report came out most club chairmen must have been rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of making the hardcore of support pay more just to watch their team.
So there it is. For me, it's not about winning or losing. I just want to stand up and pay a reasonable amount to get in! Simples!
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
Yes, because what's really been missing since the day Randy took over is investment.
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
Yes, because what's really been missing since the day Randy took over is investment.
The problem hasn't been lack on investment. Right now it is the speed with which that investment is being clawed back.
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
Yes, because what's really been missing since the day Randy took over is investment.
Do you understand the difference between "equity" and "loan finance"?
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
Yes, because what's really been missing since the day Randy took over is investment.
Do you understand the difference between "equity" and "loan finance"?
Yes,yes,yes.But where is the sanity clause?
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
Yes, because what's really been missing since the day Randy took over is investment.
Do you understand the difference between "equity" and "loan finance"?
Obviously not. After all, I'm not an accountant. Perhaps you could once again enlighten us.
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It's NOT the 'McLeish Factor', it's the 'Man City Factor'.
That plus opportunity costs, plus openly saying we're a 'sell to buy' club.
We are where we are - where Everton are, but their fans are getting better football to watch than us, maybe we should just be content and patient ( again).
But we never are (conent, I know I'm not) - and we're the pride of Birmingham, the City is ours.
FFS, our Villa is just an average Prem football club, I've had therapy to be able to accept it ( well, self therapy).
Being a 'Villa addict' I go and watch the lads, and always will.
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Just popped into this thread and my view is that many have lost the love with football in general over the last decade .... Those that have remained steadfast or those hanging on by their finger nails because of the love for their club - Aston Villa.
For some of these the sacking / resignation / departure *delete as applicable was a kick in the nads..
for many the appointment of mcleish was the final straw....not just because of his past employers or his track record but because the fans didmy want him at their club.
The board / Randy ignored them as the fans realised that it isnt their club any more not that it ever was .. The love affair is over
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It's NOT the 'McLeish Factor', it's the 'Man City Factor'.
That plus opportunity costs, plus openly saying we're a 'sell to buy' club.
We are where we are - where Everton are, but their fans are getting better football to watch than us, maybe we should just be content and patient ( again).
But we never are (conent, I know I'm not) - and we're the pride of Birmingham, the City is ours.
FFS, our Villa is just an average Prem football club, I've had therapy to be able to accept it ( well, self therapy).
Being a 'Villa addict' I go and watch the lads, and always will.
That's the Everton who lost at home to QPR and only beat Blackburn, who we all know are crap, thanks to a dodgy last minute penalty after they'd had two missed against them.
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We are where we are - where Everton are, but their fans are getting better football to watch than us, maybe we should just be content and patient ( again).
I'm no fan of dour football, I hated what MON dished us up at home for two years, and I don't like what AM had Small Heath playing, but it seems somewhat impatient to be judging the manager on the football he has us playing after three league matches.
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what was all that about? 30,000??
WTF did they expect? Sell our best players employ a manager who is known for producing dour low scoring teams. Buy a couple of make weights. Charge too much to get in, get a drink, get a meal and pay players thousands of pounds more than they are worth. Seems like people are getting fed up with it all. (bit of a bank holiday pissed up rant)
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This has been a good discussion; for me it's not just about Villa but about the PL and the way it takes our game from us, the fans. The game is becoming boring because the league is uncompetitive. This season it could be a Manchester affair alone. In one of today’s 'papers is an interview with Platini (UEFA) who sees football in Europe generally in trouble for a variety of reasons. English football, he says, has become dominated by finance. He mentions the Barcelona way of fan owned clubs. I'd love to see it.
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This has been a good discussion; for me it's not just about Villa but about the PL and the way it takes our game from us, the fans. The game is becoming boring because the league is uncompetitive. This season it could be a Manchester affair alone. In one of today’s 'papers is an interview with Platini (UEFA) who sees football in Europe generally in trouble for a variety of reasons. English football, he says, has become dominated by finance. He mentions the Barcelona way of fan owned clubs. I'd love to see it.
I read that, and although I think he's right about finance and football, it made me laugh hearing him talk praisingly of Real Madrid (debts written off in convenient deals with the local council) and Barcelona, who have gigantic amounts of debt.
Then there's Spanish football as a whole which has a tax loop hole for footballers where they pay 23 percent tax, not the 43 percent the bod on the street would pay.
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This isn’t just a Villa issue, the Baggies only got 23,000 for the Staffs Derby against a strong and successful Stoke side.
The football fan is becoming increasingly marginalised in profile. I have a working teenage son, he doesn’t earn a lot, it would have been nice to take him to the game and watch from a decent seat,at £43 a throw, a bit of parking, petrol, H&V/ Programme, pie and a pint that’s a £100 afternoons entertainment to watch a Villa side without our two best players of last season run by a a manger charged with reducing player numbers and costs against a Wolves side with no stars who will be happy simply to survive. Is that a £100 afternoon out?
Ourselves, Newcastle, Everton and Spurs have throw in the towel trying to crack the top four ( and i don’t blame Randy). Bluntly, we and they can afford to reduce squad sizes and wage bills – and not suffer too much as a result as TV/Prize money continues to rise.
Man City can field three front pairings before you get to something comparable to us. We may be getting to a stage where fans start to give even matches against the Top Four a miss if it becomes a Turkey shoot.
Even Liverpool who have gone large in their pursuit of the CL this season are effectively going for Arsenal’s spot only.
Expect many more disappointing attendances.
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Has anyone pointed out that for the first time in at least 10-15 years tickets have been available at Old Trafford the day before the game. Everyone's attendances are dropping, more a result of recession/disillusionment with football in general imo. OUrs are just being exacerbated by last season's form.
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The General is showing his true colours now by not answering any difficult questions - just silence like his boss! All we got from RL was some half-assed statement about finance and balancing the books, nothing about team investment. These Americans haven't got a clue what to do next! Crowds will continue to dwindle as more players are sold or released. I just wish someone would buy RL out ( I know that's easier said than done) and put some serious investment and passion back into running the club.
Yes, because what's really been missing since the day Randy took over is investment.
Do you understand the difference between "equity" and "loan finance"?
Risso, what difference does it make? the money comes from RL sources, the main difference is that he can charge interest on the loans, or potentialy refinance them but its technicaly his / his trusts money anyway. It is not in his interest to repay the loans and starve the business of cash.
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Even bottom sides in the Bundesliga average close to 40,000 a match. Think it is not really about results and more the corporate nature of English clubs and fans feeling disenfranchised.
Here's a good article on the topic:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league
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This isn’t just a Villa issue, the Baggies only got 23,000 for the Staffs Derby against a strong and successful Stoke side.
The football fan is becoming increasingly marginalised in profile. I have a working teenage son, he doesn’t earn a lot, it would have been nice to take him to the game and watch from a decent seat,at £43 a throw, a bit of parking, petrol, H&V/ Programme, pie and a pint that’s a £100 afternoons entertainment to watch a Villa side without our two best players of last season run by a a manger charged with reducing player numbers and costs against a Wolves side with no stars who will be happy simply to survive. Is that a £100 afternoon out?
Ourselves, Newcastle, Everton and Spurs have throw in the towel trying to crack the top four ( and i don’t blame Randy). Bluntly, we and they can afford to reduce squad sizes and wage bills – and not suffer too much as a result as TV/Prize money continues to rise.
Man City can field three front pairings before you get to something comparable to us. We may be getting to a stage where fans start to give even matches against the Top Four a miss if it becomes a Turkey shoot.
Even Liverpool who have gone large in their pursuit of the CL this season are effectively going for Arsenal’s spot only.
Expect many more disappointing attendances.
Excellent synopsis. Liverpool are just a slightly upgraded version of us from about 2 or 3 years ago. They have bought some decent'ish players for way over the odds because that is the only way they can get from their starting position, they won't in my opinion make the CL and then the one or two who do make a name for themselves meantimes such as Suarez will be itching for moves to bigger money and CL clubs. Same with Spurs. Modric will be gone within the year, Bale will follow him next season, Van Der Vaart looks to me like he isn't going to stay that long and Parker and Adebayor are very temporary sticking plasters to a much more deep seated problem for us all. It would be so funny to see Chelsea also join the ranks of also rans given the depth of my loathing for them...
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Richard, if not Liverpool then who? The team that lst 8-2 yesterday or the one that lost 5-1?
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Richard, if not Liverpool then who? The team that lst 8-2 yesterday or the one that lost 5-1?
Well, fair point Chris. I think we can assume that Manchester x 2 and Chelsea will occupy the top three places in some order and apologies for stating the bleedin' obvious. It does then have to be one of the other three and I suspect it will still be Arsenal despite all the current turmoil. Or perhaps I just hope it will be and am letting that colour my judgement...certainly, at the moment, I think the analogy with us a couple of years back is a good one as they have a chance of finishing in the CL places and there is an expectation within the club that they can, rather than perhaps they will...
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Even bottom sides in the Bundesliga average close to 40,000 a match. Think it is not really about results and more the corporate nature of English clubs and fans feeling disenfranchised.
Here's a good article on the topic:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/11/bundesliga-premier-league
Looked at another way (by actually looking at the data... (http://www.soccerstats.com/attendance.asp?league=germany_2011)), the bottom five in the Bundesliga last season all got less than 30,000 average crowds.
A selective quote from the article above suggests that not everyone involved in the Bundesliga shares the Guardian's feelings of shame abut the Premier League...
"If we consider our financial capabilities and the stability of our business model, then the aim of the Bundesliga in the long run has got to be second place behind the Premier League,"
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Looked at another way (by actually looking at the data... (http://www.soccerstats.com/attendance.asp?league=germany_2011)), the bottom five in the Bundesliga last season all got less than 30,000 average crowds.
A selective quote from the article above suggests that not everyone involved in the Bundesliga shares the Guardian's feelings of shame abut the Premier League...
That's a bit disingenuous of you drisaac - yes they may be less than 30,000 attendance but Mainz only have a capacity of c. 20,000 and get 99.4% average attendance. Similarly Freiberg have low capacity (25,000) and get around 92% full, and Wolfsburg's capacity is only 30,000 and get average 96% full. Only 2 teams - Leverkusen and Sankt Paul (who?) have low attendances related to their capacity
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Looked at another way (by actually looking at the data... (http://www.soccerstats.com/attendance.asp?league=germany_2011)), the bottom five in the Bundesliga last season all got less than 30,000 average crowds.
A selective quote from the article above suggests that not everyone involved in the Bundesliga shares the Guardian's feelings of shame abut the Premier League...
That's a bit disingenuous of you drisaac - yes they may be less than 30,000 attendance but Mainz only have a capacity of c. 20,000 and get 99.4% average attendance. Similarly Freiberg have low capacity (25,000) and get around 92% full, and Wolfsburg's capacity is only 30,000 and get average 96% full. Only 2 teams - Leverkusen and Sankt Paul (who?) have low attendances related to their capacity
Who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_St._Pauli)
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Never heard of them before I looked at that table!
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This isn’t just a Villa issue, the Baggies only got 23,000 for the Staffs Derby against a strong and successful Stoke side.
The football fan is becoming increasingly marginalised in profile. I have a working teenage son, he doesn’t earn a lot, it would have been nice to take him to the game and watch from a decent seat,at £43 a throw, a bit of parking, petrol, H&V/ Programme, pie and a pint that’s a £100 afternoons entertainment to watch a Villa side without our two best players of last season run by a a manger charged with reducing player numbers and costs against a Wolves side with no stars who will be happy simply to survive. Is that a £100 afternoon out?
It's not just football unfortunately.
I missed Saturday's game because I went to Edgbaston for the T20 finals.
Ticket £60
Beer £4 a pint
Crappy burger van style meal £7-£8 (x 2 because we were there all day)
Travel there and back £35-£40
All in all I spent almost £200 on one day. Having fun is obscenely expensive these days and football is just part of that.
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That's a bit disingenuous of you drisaac - yes they may be less than 30,000 attendance but Mainz only have a capacity of c. 20,000 and get 99.4% average attendance. Similarly Freiberg have low capacity (25,000) and get around 92% full, and Wolfsburg's capacity is only 30,000 and get average 96% full. Only 2 teams - Leverkusen and Sankt Paul (who?) have low attendances related to their capacity
Sankt Pauli (St Pauli) are very well supported so I don't know where the idea of a low attendance came from. Last season (when they were relegated) their average attendance was 99% of capacity.
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Unfortunately true as I was unable to get a ticket for one of their matches when I was over there.
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I do know people who are still not going because of McLeish, but they are more in the camp of "I can't quite get my head around it yet" than "I am never setting foot in there again until he's gone". So, if results go OK those are likely to drift back.
Less likely to drift back are those that have realised that £30 week after week is a lot of money for what we are getting. From the actual entertainment, to the atmosphere, the prospects of success, and the sense of belonging.
Stan Collymore was asking for tweets about players moving for more money and saying none of us, if we were on £90k would turn down a move in our jobs for £200k. This may be true, but expect especially the younger generation of fans to apply the same logic to their support and go and find a better product for their £30. The generation of fans who will support come what may are moving on, a large proportion of youngsters already don't see why they should support Villa above teams like Man U and Chelsea. As the sense of the team as a bunch of "itinerant mercenaries" (nice phrase whoever that was), rather than as "ours" increases, there is less and less reason to keep buying into this when it's not good.
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I live abroad now, so i don't go to every game.
However a few years ago, before i moved, i started to fall out of love with Villa. It starts slowly and the gap grows wider as time goes on.
I was a season ticket holder for a number of years in the 80's and early 90's, then i wouldn't dream of missing a game. Had seasons of folllowing home and away.
Then through one thing and another i missed a couple of games, the pain of not being there slowly disappears, and the thoughts of missing out on a classic game are replaced by the reality that it happens few and far between.
The realisation that not having a season ticket can actually save you money, and that you can always get hold of a ticket for games. I was at both Wembley games last year.
There will be a lot of fans who stayed away on Saturday, who watched it on the TV and will feel totally justified at not spending £40.
The next time they have to make the choice, they will remember the comfort of staying at home or going the pub, compared with the "experience" of actually going to the game, and realise they haven't missed out on anything, and have probably saved money.
Nobody goes to every game anymore, so you just treat a missed home game like an away fixture you didn't go to, and it becomes easier to deal with.
There are thousands of Villa fans who don't actually go the games any more, it's as much about getting older as well as anything else.
Success on the pitch is the only thing guaranteed to increase attendances. Until Villa become successful again, we only have the hope we will be able to compete, we had this with MON and the backing of the board, this has now been replaced with a desire to be in the financial top 20 euro clubs, a sell to buy policy and a manager no Villa fan actually would have chosen, no wonder the attendances are down.
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Well if you show zero ambition, crowds are going to dwindle.
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For me beyond the ridiculous cost of going, the biggest de-motivating factor is that the majority of the millionaire players that we are mean't to be supporting don't really want to play for us.
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I do know people who are still not going because of McLeish, but they are more in the camp of "I can't quite get my head around it yet" than "I am never setting foot in there again until he's gone". So, if results go OK those are likely to drift back.
Less likely to drift back are those that have realised that £30 week after week is a lot of money for what we are getting. From the actual entertainment, to the atmosphere, the prospects of success, and the sense of belonging.
Stan Collymore was asking for tweets about players moving for more money and saying none of us, if we were on £90k would turn down a move in our jobs for £200k. This may be true, but expect especially the younger generation of fans to apply the same logic to their support and go and find a better product for their £30. The generation of fans who will support come what may are moving on, a large proportion of youngsters already don't see why they should support Villa above teams like Man U and Chelsea. As the sense of the team as a bunch of "itinerant mercenaries" (nice phrase whoever that was), rather than as "ours" increases, there is less and less reason to keep buying into this when it's not good.
I'm always a little wary of comparing footballers wages to real life. To us a big wage increase can improve the quality of life and security for the future for our families so of course we're likely to take it. If you're already earning £70k a week what essential difference will an additional £20k make? It's about greed and status rather than to improve your life.
I think the argument is one used by players, past and present, to try to justify the unjustifiable. If they weren't taking so much money out of the game then it would be more affordable.
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I thought everybody had heard of St Pauli, they're fairly well known as being decidedly "odd". They organised that "World Cup" a few years ago for teams like Greenland and Northern Cyprus.
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For me the biggest factors are the cost of tickets, lack of ambition and most importantly, lack of entertainment. I love the club but all too often lately have found myself bored shitless and wondered why I had came. For some reason I just don't enjoy it as much as I used to, and a lot of the other factors that other posters have mentioned all play a part. The strange thing is that I still go down regularly, but it is more out of habit these days than anything else.
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Not re-investing money that's come in won't get people through the turnstiles unfortunatley, even if it did need to be done.
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Not re-investing money that's come in won't get people through the turnstiles unfortunatley, even if it did need to be done.
That's the vicious circle really, if we don't show some ambition people won't turn up and thus our revenue goes down. We need to spend to actually get some money coming in.
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Hi all first post
I was one of the ones who chose not to renew after eight years of being a season ticket holder. It wasn`t down to one single reason but a combination of reasons. Appointing McLeish and he`s style of play was the final straw. I`ve only know football in the sky era. For me it`s now more than ever a business first and a sport second. Us fans are now customers and it appears many fans are acting like customers.
If your favroite restaurant takes their best dishes off the menu month after month, replaces the chief with one from KFC and the owners ignored what the customers want, Yet tell you please come next week, it won`t be any better but it will cost you 5% more would u go back?
If that makes me less of a fan or fickle then many be I am. After all I along with many expressed my anger at Wycombe!
For those who say the club will be better off without the fans that chose not to attend do the sums. For a club like ours trying to balance the books it’s not small change we`re talking about.
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It says everything about modern football, if not modern capitalist life, that the man in the street is asked to shell out more for an inferior version of what he has had before for less because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money.
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It says everything about modern football, if not modern capitalist life, that the man in the street is asked to shell out more for an inferior version of what he has had before for less because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money.
I think it says a lot about modern football fans, or customers as they want to be called, that they're not able to accept that there are ups and downs in sport. I'm from an era when supporting your club was about following them through thick and thin so struggle with the idea of withdrawing it when things aren't quite as good.
Just imagine if everyone had the new attitude, nobody would watch Crewe or Sheffield Wednesday.
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It was the clubs and the Premier League who started treating us like customers rather than supporters, not the other way around.
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It says everything about modern football, if not modern capitalist life, that the man in the street is asked to shell out more for an inferior version of what he has had before for less because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money.
I think it says a lot about modern football fans, or customers as they want to be called, that they're not able to accept that there are ups and downs in sport. I'm from an era when supporting your club was about following them through thick and thin so struggle with the idea of withdrawing it when things aren't quite as good.
Just imagine if everyone had the new attitude, nobody would watch Crewe or Sheffield Wednesday.
I think that just it though: it's about coming from a different era. When 40-somethings were kids, there were fewer, and generally less exciting options for what to do with your time. Plus the league was more competitive than it is now and it was easier to identify with the players in the team.
Now kids have so many different things to do, have to pay a significant amount to watch the football, with players not much older than themselves earning more in a week than they will earn in a year, and without much chance of winning anything.
As far as the moneymen are concerned, the fan who goes come what may, regardless of the cost or quality of what's on offer, and in some cases actually boasts about going even though it's shit, is the ultimate consumer. It's the ultimate irony that he is expected to keep going as the team is declining and the billionaire owner is cutting costs right left and centre.
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I think it says a lot about modern football fans, or customers as they want to be called, that they're not able to accept that there are ups and downs in sport. I'm from an era when supporting your club was about following them through thick and thin so struggle with the idea of withdrawing it when things aren't quite as good.
Just imagine if everyone had the new attitude, nobody would watch Crewe or Sheffield Wednesday.
Well said.
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Ultimately, for 2 seasons running we were very close to the Champions League. The level of investment from Randy was massive*. But it's got to that awkward point where we either needed to start filling Villa Park every week or putting the prices up to enable us to compete. Neither was happening and while that's the case we can't afford to have three right backs earning £2.5m a year.
Ultimately Randy did the best he could financially for 3.5 years of turning us into a force, and he must have expected our fanbase to grow and inturn our revenue swell. It didn't happen so we're going back to square one (although slower than anticipated due to our inability to get rid of the shite) in order to re-think and try again.
You can't blame people for not being willing to put money in again (and a little bit extra) when we've essentially been told the next year or so isn't gonna be any fun.
I still back Randy and I think we'll have another good crack at the top 4 again under him, but I don't see it for a while yet.
*The investment from a personal point of view was massive. Comparatively to what Levy and the 2 Americans at Liverpool were putting in atleast - their revnues are higher than ours.
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It says everything about modern football, if not modern capitalist life, that the man in the street is asked to shell out more for an inferior version of what he has had before for less because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money.
I think it says a lot about modern football fans, or customers as they want to be called, that they're not able to accept that there are ups and downs in sport. I'm from an era when supporting your club was about following them through thick and thin so struggle with the idea of withdrawing it when things aren't quite as good.
Just imagine if everyone had the new attitude, nobody would watch Crewe or Sheffield Wednesday.
It was probably the 'thick and thin' that got supporters hooked. Nothing kills passion for a club more than the prospect of trundling along mid-table. And that's the product on offer down the Villa these days.
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It says everything about modern football, if not modern capitalist life, that the man in the street is asked to shell out more for an inferior version of what he has had before for less because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money.
I think it says a lot about modern football fans, or customers as they want to be called, that they're not able to accept that there are ups and downs in sport. I'm from an era when supporting your club was about following them through thick and thin so struggle with the idea of withdrawing it when things aren't quite as good.
Just imagine if everyone had the new attitude, nobody would watch Crewe or Sheffield Wednesday.
There you again, just as I was saying earlier, you really are only happy when you're smugly having a go at other supporters for not being as good as you.
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For better or worse i am on favour of the financial sort out, i personally would rather watch Herd, Bannan, Clarke, Albrighton etc than more experienced players that cost fortunes and do no more than what we've got already,
When the wage bill is bought under control then we can invest hopefully to build and complement what we already have
Untill then I'm quite happy to watch this crop of younger players many of which we've bought through the academy develop and compete at premier league level,
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For better or worse i am on favour of the financial sort out, i personally would rather watch Herd, Bannan, Clarke, Albrighton etc than more experienced players that cost fortunes and do no more than what we've got already,
When the wage bill is bought under control then we can invest hopefully to build and complement what we already have
Untill then I'm quite happy to watch this crop of younger players many of which we've bought through the academy develop and compete at premier league level,
I suspect that anybody who expects there to be any more "investment" after the fire sale has finished is going to be sorely disappointed.
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When you charge people 40 plus quid for a ticket, I guess it is inevitable that they're going to be more demanding and "elastic" in their support.
It's a bit too easy to get on a high horse and apply a blanket criticism of "modern fans" - I, like many on here, watched us through the mid 80s when we were utter gash, and dreaded the thought of missing a game, no matter how grim it all was.
The difference was, it cost a few quid back then, not 40, and that is a big, big difference. It's much easier to be a "thick and thin" fan when it costs next to nothing.
When you get to charging people that kind of money, you've got the advantage that your ticket income is massively increased. The flip side is that people start to apply the same sort of logic to football tickets that they apply to other expensive, luxury items.
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When you charge people 40 plus quid for a ticket, I guess it is inevitable that they're going to be more demanding and "elastic" in their support.
It's a bit too easy to get on a high horse and apply a blanket criticism of "modern fans" - I, like many on here, watched us through the mid 80s when we were utter gash, and dreaded the thought of missing a game, no matter how grim it all was.
The difference was, it cost a few quid back then, not 40, and that is a big, big difference. It's much easier to be a "thick and thin" fan when it costs next to nothing.
When you get to charging people that kind of money, you've got the advantage that your ticket income is massively increased. The flip side is that people start to apply the same sort of logic to football tickets that they apply to other expensive, luxury items.
Absolutely.
Compare the stick Wenger's starting to get with the way Forest supporters stuck with Clough - even when he was clearly past it and going to take them down.
And at the prices they have to pay, I'd be booing if they didn't provide a sufficiently high quality product.
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I dont see how any one can criticise fans not turning up, it is the only vote fans have got and they are excercising that vote. Dont blame the fans but look a little more closely at why they are not coming.
I would agree...as long as the fans realize the owner may do the exact same thing. The crowds arent coming out and buying tickets, to run the team responsibly the amount spent on players and other areas has to be cut back accordingly. Of course most fans will argue the owner should do no such thing...but if you look at this thread you will see complaints about the ticket prices and complaints about the lack of spending.
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Hi all first post
I was one of the ones who chose not to renew after eight years of being a season ticket holder. It wasn`t down to one single reason but a combination of reasons. Appointing McLeish and he`s style of play was the final straw. I`ve only know football in the sky era. For me it`s now more than ever a business first and a sport second. Us fans are now customers and it appears many fans are acting like customers.
If your favroite restaurant takes their best dishes off the menu month after month, replaces the chief with one from KFC and the owners ignored what the customers want, Yet tell you please come next week, it won`t be any better but it will cost you 5% more would u go back?
If that makes me less of a fan or fickle then many be I am. After all I along with many expressed my anger at Wycombe!
For those who say the club will be better off without the fans that chose not to attend do the sums. For a club like ours trying to balance the books it’s not small change we`re talking about.
Welcome to the site. I think you make some good points.
KFC ? When I started (1966 ) it was a chef from Berni Inn, but they changed him for a spotty kid from Wimpey, and when they couldnt afford him we got a bowl of gruel (if we were lucky !) But we stuck with it at 5 bob standing and 8 shilling in the seats or whatever it might have been. Having said that the crowds didnt drop to 30k, it was 13k.
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I would agree...as long as the fans realize the owner may do the exact same thing. The crowds arent coming out and buying tickets, to run the team responsibly the amount spent on players and other areas has to be cut back accordingly. Of course most fans will argue the owner should do no such thing...but if you look at this thread you will see complaints about the ticket prices and complaints about the lack of spending.
Which was my original point: it's the height of irony that it should be painted as somehow being the fans' fault that our billionaire owner hasn't got enough money.
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I would agree...as long as the fans realize the owner may do the exact same thing. The crowds arent coming out and buying tickets, to run the team responsibly the amount spent on players and other areas has to be cut back accordingly. Of course most fans will argue the owner should do no such thing...but if you look at this thread you will see complaints about the ticket prices and complaints about the lack of spending.
Which was my original point: it's the height of irony that it should be painted as somehow being the fans' fault that our billionaire owner hasn't got enough money.
If our owner has enough money, perhaps it is the club that doesn't. It goes along with that 'running the club responsibly'.
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For better or worse i am on favour of the financial sort out, i personally would rather watch Herd, Bannan, Clarke, Albrighton etc than more experienced players that cost fortunes and do no more than what we've got already,
When the wage bill is bought under control then we can invest hopefully to build and complement what we already have
Untill then I'm quite happy to watch this crop of younger players many of which we've bought through the academy develop and compete at premier league level,
...at which point we sell them for profit, to a club with ambition and better levels of pay.
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Awful lot of better-than-you's on here lately....
Recession, no chance of actually competing in the competition you're playing in? Then, when you buy a ticket the club charge you two fucking quid for half a cup of weak tea. Hollywood prices for an art(less) house spectacle. It's like paying to see Tony Bennett at the Royal Albert Hall and then being shown into a back room to see Will Young. Smoke and Mirrors don't work when people are skint.
I watched a bit of the Man Utd Arse game and it was painfully clear that we really are only there as cannon fodder for 3 teams now. It HAS to change or clubs like Villa will completely cease to matter in a few years.
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And as for the "it's all AM's fault"..... The manager has had 3 games. THREE.
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If our owner has enough money, perhaps it is the club that doesn't. It goes along with that 'running the club responsibly'.
Randy is far better equipped to deal with any lack of funds than all of our supporters put together.
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If our owner has enough money, perhaps it is the club that doesn't. It goes along with that 'running the club responsibly'.
Randy is far better equipped to deal with any lack of funds than all of our supporters put together.
Of course he is, our 'supporters' are a quickly shrinking number. Seventh in the table and they can't be bothered to support the Villa? I guess I have it easy buy a kit and wake up before the sun to find a stream to watch from across the pond. Maybe that is why I don't feel entitled to tell Randy to spend more money to buy 'a winning team' or I wont bother. Maybe it is the years of supporting teams that weren't as good as they used to be...hell, anybody can be loyal to a winning team. Just my 2 quid.
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My two penneth: you can't class fans in terms of how 'good' they are. You either are a fan, or you're not. Some have - or make - the means to go to every game, some can't, some choose not to and people in that latter category will always have valid reasons.
Me, I've been a Villa fan since I was a kid, but back in the day we were as poor as church mice and there was no way I was going to be able to get go to the footy regularly.
When I finally got a job and a modest amount of cash, sod's law meant I found it abroad - and the missus too. If I was still living in the UK, within a few hours' drive of Brum, I would definitely be a ST holder. I would bloody love that. If I was a millionaire who could hop on an Easyjet flight every other weekend, I would be a ST holder even now. But as it is, I'm reduced to watching Villa play on the net, and my only active contribution to the club's success is buying a load of stuff from the club shop online every so often.
If that makes me a low quality fan, then fine. But not all of us have a choice about how we support the club.
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Every football fan needs some kind of realistic ambition coming into a season, its what gives us the buzz to go, be it a AFC Wimbledon fan who’s ambition is to ensure they stay up and build for the future OR a Villa fan. And that’s where I ask myself what are our ambitions and goals are? We clearly can’t compete at the top and we aren’t aiming to just survive which leaves us with an ambition that reads ‘just happy to dine at the table.’ During the good times that was enough, but we ain’t in the good times at all and percentage of our fanbase has correctly determined that if the clubs ambition is to just stay still then with tightening budgets their money can be put to better use elsewhere.
Of course the irony of this, is that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, the lowers the attendances, the lower the income. The lower the income, the lower the ambition of the club. Short of a splurge of cash in January or a cup run, we are going to have to get used to rows of empty seats at Villa and those that still go berated the stay away supporters as ‘not real fans.’’
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Of course he is, our 'supporters' are a quickly shrinking number. Seventh in the table and they can't be bothered to support the Villa? I guess I have it easy buy a kit and wake up before the sun to find a stream to watch from across the pond. Maybe that is why I don't feel entitled to tell Randy to spend more money to buy 'a winning team' or I wont bother. Maybe it is the years of supporting teams that weren't as good as they used to be...hell, anybody can be loyal to a winning team. Just my 2 quid.
I don't understand why there are some on here who are so quick to criticise fans rather than those in charge who are more responsible than any fan for the situation the club currently finds itself in.
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Of course he is, our 'supporters' are a quickly shrinking number. Seventh in the table and they can't be bothered to support the Villa? I guess I have it easy buy a kit and wake up before the sun to find a stream to watch from across the pond. Maybe that is why I don't feel entitled to tell Randy to spend more money to buy 'a winning team' or I wont bother. Maybe it is the years of supporting teams that weren't as good as they used to be...hell, anybody can be loyal to a winning team. Just my 2 quid.
I don't understand why there are some on here who are so quick to criticise fans rather than those in charge who are more responsible than any fan for the situation the club currently finds itself in.
I cant understand why there are some on here who criticise everything the club does, can't be bothered to go to the match on the back of one disappointing summer (but they're not part-timers or gloryhunters, oh no), throw abuse at Randy, then get upset when their commitment is questioned.
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Awful lot of better-than-you's on here lately....
Recession, no chance of actually competing in the competition you're playing in? Then, when you buy a ticket the club charge you two fucking quid for half a cup of weak tea. Hollywood prices for an art(less) house spectacle. It's like paying to see Tony Bennett at the Royal Albert Hall and then being shown into a back room to see Will Young. Smoke and Mirrors don't work when people are skint.
I watched a bit of the Man Utd Arse game and it was painfully clear that we really are only there as cannon fodder for 3 teams now. It HAS to change or clubs like Villa will completely cease to matter in a few years.
Sport is about ups and downs, if you want guaranteed success people have backed the wrong horse with the Villa. I'm not claiming to be better, I'm explaining my attitude and it is one shared by a lot of people of who started going in my era.
I'm not talking about it from a financial perspective, if people have to worry about if they can afford it or not then they are better off spending their money on something important. Football is too expensive, absolutely, but that's a different argument.
I was replying to the post about us being customers who will withdraw our support if we're not winning games. I don't agree with that attitude, it's called glory hunting when it's a Man u fan. I acknowledged that it is probably a generational thing but I'm not going to apologise for having a different approach.
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These arguments sound very similar the tail end of Herbert's reign, when he had no intention of spending money to keep us competitive and the gates plummeted. The stay-away fans got blamed then, too.
Does any other industry blame the paying spectator/consumer? Or is it a uniquely football thing. Perhaps it's only unique to us.
To clarify: I don't think we're necessarily at the tail end of the Lerner era. I think/ hope he's merely taking stock, clearing the boards and looking to go again soon. It has been intimated that there is money available to spend - but wages (more specifically getting them down) has been the main focus recently. You can agree or disagree with that strategy. But when -to all intents and purposes- we look set on a downscaling exercise, it will obviously impact on the enthusiasm supporters have. Lower gates is a natural consequence of that.
Recently Villa fans have had to contend with our best players being sold for the third year in a row, our rivals (as was) eclipsing us and an unpopular managerial appointment in the form of McLeish. Yet the prices at the gate haven't been downsized across the board to fit in with these lower expectations. Quite the opposite, Villa fans are expected to pay more for the privilege.
I touched on the latter end of the Herbert years earlier, and I must say it does increasingly feel like where we were in 2005/06 - looking to acquire a promising loan or two to boost numbers - or players either well past their peak or damaged goods in some way. In direct contrast to the first few years under Lerner when -despite the lack of truly big name purchases- most fans were happy that we were prepared to pay decent money for promising up and coming players. Optimist that I am, I hope we return to that approach pretty soon.
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Of course he is, our 'supporters' are a quickly shrinking number. Seventh in the table and they can't be bothered to support the Villa? I guess I have it easy buy a kit and wake up before the sun to find a stream to watch from across the pond. Maybe that is why I don't feel entitled to tell Randy to spend more money to buy 'a winning team' or I wont bother. Maybe it is the years of supporting teams that weren't as good as they used to be...hell, anybody can be loyal to a winning team. Just my 2 quid.
I don't understand why there are some on here who are so quick to criticise fans rather than those in charge who are more responsible than any fan for the situation the club currently finds itself in.
My opinion is based on the fact that I support a team that 'is not good' and have for many years. I go to games when I can, and watch every game when I can't travel. Because I am a fan of the team. Anyone can root for them when they are winning, we tend to call those people 'bandwagon fans' here in the States. I don't like the term 'real fan' either because that sounds like a person is not a fan.
I prefer "good" and "bad". Bad fans have all the answers, but always after the fact. (Oh, he was a crap signing 3 years ago!) Bad fans have silly expectations. (Just hire a coach that is going to win!) Bad fans don't support their club, or root against them. (If we lose this week we will get a better draft pick!)
Comments like 'We need a better X and should try and get Y' make sense to me, comments like 'We shouldn't have hired X, we should've gotten someone better' do not. If the owner made a mistake by not hiring a better coach...who was that coach? Who was all lined up to come coach Villa that Randy ignored? If you can't answer that then there isn't somebody better.
We are 7th in the league right now. We can fall a lot farther down the table than we can move up. It isn't that bad of a start.
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Comments like 'We need a better X and should try and get Y' make sense to me, comments like 'We shouldn't have hired X, we should've gotten someone better' do not. If the owner made a mistake by not hiring a better coach...who was that coach? Who was all lined up to come coach Villa that Randy ignored? If you can't answer that then there isn't somebody better.
The irony is, now we know the parameters AM is working within, there were far fewer better options than we thought there were.
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Comments like 'We need a better X and should try and get Y' make sense to me, comments like 'We shouldn't have hired X, we should've gotten someone better' do not. If the owner made a mistake by not hiring a better coach...who was that coach? Who was all lined up to come coach Villa that Randy ignored? If you can't answer that then there isn't somebody better.
The irony is, now we know the parameters AM is working within, there were far fewer better options than we thought there were.
Never thought of it like that but it must be true. The bloke has never had any real money to spend so that must have been an instant attraction for the owner. At least we now know what one of the three non negotiables (shares the Villa vision) actually means. The vision is no vision.
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Comments like 'We need a better X and should try and get Y' make sense to me, comments like 'We shouldn't have hired X, we should've gotten someone better' do not. If the owner made a mistake by not hiring a better coach...who was that coach? Who was all lined up to come coach Villa that Randy ignored? If you can't answer that then there isn't somebody better.
It's this kind of 'logic' that winds me up. What you've essentially done there is come up with a perverse equation designed to produce the conclusion 'Randy's choice must be the right choice'. Absurd.
If I'd said towards the end of Houllier's reign "We need a better manager and should try and get Alex McLeish" you and everyone else would quite rightly have pissed yourself with laughter. But now Randy has done exactly that, you're arguing that there was no possibility of us getting anyone better.
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I cant understand why there are some on here who criticise everything the club does, can't be bothered to go to the match on the back of one disappointing summer (but they're not part-timers or gloryhunters, oh no), throw abuse at Randy, then get upset when their commitment is questioned.
If you think the problems at the club are due to people who don't go, for whatever reason, then I would respectfully disagree with you.
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I cant understand why there are some on here who criticise everything the club does, can't be bothered to go to the match on the back of one disappointing summer (but they're not part-timers or gloryhunters, oh no), throw abuse at Randy, then get upset when their commitment is questioned.
If you think the problems at the club are due to people who don't go, for whatever reason, then I would respectfully disagree with you.
Where has Dave made that connection, that's purely your invention.
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Where has Dave made that connection, that's purely your invention.
So why then are the fans getting all the stick? I've not seen Dave, or you for that matter, offer any criticism of those responsible for the situation the club finds itself in, merely sneering criticism of those fans who for whatever reason have decided to stop going, as if its entirely their fault. To use Dave's own expression: when in doubt, blame the fans.
Rather than using stay-away fans as some sort of reason for the club's malaise, you perhaps ought to see them for what they are, i.e. a symptom of the club's malaise.
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Where has Dave made that connection, that's purely your invention.
So why then are the fans getting all the stick? I've not seen Dave, or you for that matter, offer any criticism of those responsible for the situation the club finds itself in, merely sneering criticism of those fans who for whatever reason have decided to stop going, as if its entirely their fault. To use Dave's own expression: when in doubt, blame the fans.
Rather than using stay-away fans as some sort of reason for the club's malaise, you perhaps ought to see them for what they are, i.e. a symptom of the club's malaise.
I blame a lot of people - whoever agreed to such daft contracts and to give the manager such freedom must take a fair chunk of the responsibility, even if they were doing what they - and us at the time - thought was right. I don't blame the fans. I do criticise those who stay away and say it's because of what's happening on the pitch. To me that's not what supporting a football team is about.
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Where has Dave made that connection, that's purely your invention.
So why then are the fans getting all the stick? I've not seen Dave, or you for that matter, offer any criticism of those responsible for the situation the club finds itself in, merely sneering criticism of those fans who for whatever reason have decided to stop going, as if its entirely their fault. To use Dave's own expression: when in doubt, blame the fans.
Rather than using stay-away fans as some sort of reason for the club's malaise, you perhaps ought to see them for what they are, i.e. a symptom of the club's malaise.
It's not a criticism of fans who "for whatever reason have decided to stop going". It was a specific response to the KFC analogy that we're merely customers and withdrawing your support because we're not spending as much.
Despite everything over 80,000 tickets were sold at VP last week so I'm not alone with my approach. Some have stopped going but many more haven't.
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Despite everything over 80,000 tickets were sold at VP last week so I'm not alone with my approach. Some have stopped going but many more haven't.
Which would still have been the case if we'd have got 20k on Saturday rather than 30k, so I'm not really sure what the relevance of that is.
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Awful lot of better-than-you's on here lately....
Recession, no chance of actually competing in the competition you're playing in? Then, when you buy a ticket the club charge you two fucking quid for half a cup of weak tea. Hollywood prices for an art(less) house spectacle. It's like paying to see Tony Bennett at the Royal Albert Hall and then being shown into a back room to see Will Young. Smoke and Mirrors don't work when people are skint.
I watched a bit of the Man Utd Arse game and it was painfully clear that we really are only there as cannon fodder for 3 teams now. It HAS to change or clubs like Villa will completely cease to matter in a few years.
Sport is about ups and downs, if you want guaranteed success people have backed the wrong horse with the Villa. I'm not claiming to be better, I'm explaining my attitude and it is one shared by a lot of people of who started going in my era.
I'm not talking about it from a financial perspective, if people have to worry about if they can afford it or not then they are better off spending their money on something important. Football is too expensive, absolutely, but that's a different argument.
I was replying to the post about us being customers who will withdraw our support if we're not winning games. I don't agree with that attitude, it's called glory hunting when it's a Man u fan. I acknowledged that it is probably a generational thing but I'm not going to apologise for having a different approach.
My comments weren't aimed directly at you, Chris. I agree that sport is about ups and downs and withdrawing support or ceasing to care is not an option for me (unfortunately). I'm 36 and so, as an adult, I have mainly seen us achieve our modern day par of 6th and a good cup run. What is success? Competing and having a chance I'd say. My problem is that clubs like ours are increasingly playing for scraps but we're still paying masters-table prices. That just doesn't add up / isn't right and maybe people are wising up?
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I blame a lot of people - whoever agreed to such daft contracts and to give the manager such freedom must take a fair chunk of the responsibility, even if they were doing what they - and us at the time - thought was right. I don't blame the fans. I do criticise those who stay away and say it's because of what's happening on the pitch. To me that's not what supporting a football team is about.
The thing though is that what's happening on the pitch is a direct result of what's been happening off the pitch. If we'd won lots of trophies in the last few years then I'd agree with you - to walk away because the trophies had dried up would be poor. But we didn't. We haven't won anything for a long time and, because of the way the club is being run, our chances of putting that right seem to be declining every month. Even that would be tolerable if the football was open and exciting but it isn't. Add that to the cost and is it really that difficult to see why people are staying away, even if they don't necessarily express it in those terms?
As I've said, the icing on the cake is that they are still expected to go because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money. And the cherry on the icing on the cake is that some supporters can't see that not going is a sensible reaction to all that and start trotting out the 'better fan than you' stuff, as if their way of supporting the club is the standard by which all other supporters must be judged.
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I've just done a bit of digging on attendances for all this weekends fixtures and corresponding fixtures last season. The list of factors possibly affecting attendance have been well documented numerous times in this thread, so are most of these factors consistent with other teams or just down at Villa Park? Heres the attendance figures:
Fixture - Att. 2011 - (Att. 2010) [+/-]
Aston Villa vs Wolves - 30,776 (38,965) [-8000]
Blackburn vs Everton - 22,826 (25,869) [-3000]
Liverpool vs Bolton - 44,725 (35,400) [+9000]
Newcastle vs Fulham - 42,684 (44,686) [-2000]
Tottenham vs Man City - 36,150 (35,928) [-]
West Brom vs Stoke - 22,909 (24,164) [-1000]
Man Utd vs Arsenal - 75,448 (75,227) [-]
Quite clearly the largest attendance drop this weekend was at Villa Park with over 8000 lower than last season (over 20% drop). Even if you factor in the early kick-off and third home game, this is far excessive compared to the other 3 games that had a reduced attendance given all the other consistent factors.
In my opinion, the performance of the club off the pitch this summer in terms of appointing AM and transfer activity are clearly having a negative affect on attendance as seen so far this season and it cannot be ignored or denied with any kind of positive spin. Obviously further evidence with forthcoming fixtures will prove this to be true or false, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that we will see similar or lower attendances for Newcastle, Wigan and Baggies.
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I blame a lot of people - whoever agreed to such daft contracts and to give the manager such freedom must take a fair chunk of the responsibility, even if they were doing what they - and us at the time - thought was right. I don't blame the fans. I do criticise those who stay away and say it's because of what's happening on the pitch. To me that's not what supporting a football team is about.
The thing though is that what's happening on the pitch is a direct result of what's been happening off the pitch. If we'd won lots of trophies in the last few years then I'd agree with you - to walk away because the trophies had dried up would be poor. But we didn't. We haven't won anything for a long time and, because of the way the club is being run, our chances of putting that right seem to be declining every month. Even that would be tolerable if the football was open and exciting but it isn't. Add that to the cost and is it really that difficult to see why people are staying away, even if they don't necessarily express it in those terms?
As I've said, the icing on the cake is that they are still expected to go because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money. And the cherry on the icing on the cake is that some supporters can't see that not going is a sensible reaction to all that and start trotting out the 'better fan than you' stuff, as if their way of supporting the club is the standard by which all other supporters must be judged.
Of course I see why people are staying away; there are many factors and some are reasons while some are excuses. The owner's wealth or lack of it is irrelevant and the only people talking 'better fan than you' seem to be the ones who are accusing others of it.
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I blame a lot of people - whoever agreed to such daft contracts and to give the manager such freedom must take a fair chunk of the responsibility, even if they were doing what they - and us at the time - thought was right. I don't blame the fans. I do criticise those who stay away and say it's because of what's happening on the pitch. To me that's not what supporting a football team is about.
The thing though is that what's happening on the pitch is a direct result of what's been happening off the pitch. If we'd won lots of trophies in the last few years then I'd agree with you - to walk away because the trophies had dried up would be poor. But we didn't. We haven't won anything for a long time and, because of the way the club is being run, our chances of putting that right seem to be declining every month. Even that would be tolerable if the football was open and exciting but it isn't. Add that to the cost and is it really that difficult to see why people are staying away, even if they don't necessarily express it in those terms?
As I've said, the icing on the cake is that they are still expected to go because the billionaire owner hasn't got enough money. And the cherry on the icing on the cake is that some supporters can't see that not going is a sensible reaction to all that and start trotting out the 'better fan than you' stuff, as if their way of supporting the club is the standard by which all other supporters must be judged.
Of course I see why people are staying away; there are many factors and some are reasons while some are excuses. The owner's wealth or lack of it is irrelevant and the only people talking 'better fan than you' seem to be the ones who are accusing others of it.
While I agree that Lerners bank balance isn't directly relevant, I'm not sure that the (very) last part is true, Dave.
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Of course I see why people are staying away; there are many factors and some are reasons while some are excuses. The owner's wealth or lack of it is irrelevant and the only people talking 'better fan than you' seem to be the ones who are accusing others of it.
Oh please. You and Chris have been at it all afternoon. In any case, people don't need "an excuse" not to go. If they don't want to, they don't want to.
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Of course I see why people are staying away; there are many factors and some are reasons while some are excuses. The owner's wealth or lack of it is irrelevant and the only people talking 'better fan than you' seem to be the ones who are accusing others of it.
Oh please. You and Chris have been at it all afternoon. In any case, people don't need "an excuse" not to go. If they don't want to, they don't want to.
Really? Perhaps you can tell me where. All I've seen is a load of self-righteousness invariably followed by 'you're saying you're a better fan then me'.
Indeed, people don't have to go to the match if they don't want. And others have the right to comment on the subject.
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Of course I see why people are staying away; there are many factors and some are reasons while some are excuses. The owner's wealth or lack of it is irrelevant and the only people talking 'better fan than you' seem to be the ones who are accusing others of it.
Oh please. You and Chris have been at it all afternoon. In any case, people don't need "an excuse" not to go. If they don't want to, they don't want to.
It's become a dull cliche on here, that as soon as anyone tries to explain their attitude to supporting the club they're accused of the better fan nonsense. It's a convenient way to avoid discussing the point by turning it into a debate about motives rather than the issue.
Absolutely, if you don't want to go that's your choice, obviously. However, if you decide to post about why you don't go and then widen that out to explain why others don't then it's only natural that others who have a different outlook will respond.
I'll say it again; I don't regard myself as a better fan but I feel that as a supporter I have to take the bad times with the good. Note the use of "I" several times in that sentence.
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I've just done a bit of digging on attendances for all this weekends fixtures and corresponding fixtures last season. The list of factors possibly affecting attendance have been well documented numerous times in this thread, so are most of these factors consistent with other teams or just down at Villa Park? Heres the attendance figures:
Fixture - Att. 2011 - (Att. 2010) [+/-]
Aston Villa vs Wolves - 30,776 (38,965) [-8000]
Blackburn vs Everton - 22,826 (25,869) [-3000]
Liverpool vs Bolton - 44,725 (35,400) [+9000]
Newcastle vs Fulham - 42,684 (44,686) [-2000]
Tottenham vs Man City - 36,150 (35,928) [-]
West Brom vs Stoke - 22,909 (24,164) [-1000]
Man Utd vs Arsenal - 75,448 (75,227) [-]
Quite clearly the largest attendance drop this weekend was at Villa Park with over 8000 lower than last season (over 20% drop). Even if you factor in the early kick-off and third home game, this is far excessive compared to the other 3 games that had a reduced attendance given all the other consistent factors.
In my opinion, the performance of the club off the pitch this summer in terms of appointing AM and transfer activity are clearly having a negative affect on attendance as seen so far this season and it cannot be ignored or denied with any kind of positive spin. Obviously further evidence with forthcoming fixtures will prove this to be true or false, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that we will see similar or lower attendances for Newcastle, Wigan and Baggies.
I'd say Saturday's attendance was nothing out of the ordinary.
Sorry, not read all the thread but go back to 2009, you'll see the attendance for the bank holiday weekend was 32,917. I'm guessing Fulham brought as many fans as Wolves. This was, not that you'll need reminding, under the management of MON, a top six finish and qualification to the Europa League, after our highest spending summer window ever, a 3-1 win at Anfield and not a lunchtime kick off or live on TV.
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Really? Perhaps you can tell me where. All I've seen is a load of self-righteousness invariably followed by 'you're saying you're a better fan then me'.
Indeed, people don't have to go to the match if they don't want. And others have the right to comment on them.
How about this one for starters?
"I cant understand why there are some on here who criticise everything the club does, can't be bothered to go to the match on the back of one disappointing summer (but they're not part-timers or gloryhunters, oh no), throw abuse at Randy, then get upset when their commitment is questioned. " And then contrasting it with your own level of commitment.
If you don't believe those you are describing to be an inferior supporter in some way, then why is this debate even happening? If there's nothing wrong in behaving that way, why do you feel the need as you say "to comment on them"?
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May as well mention it because I don't think anyone else has yet. Our gates always go up after Christmas.
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I'll say it again; I don't regard myself as a better fan but I feel that as a supporter I have to take the bad times with the good. Note the use of "I" several times in that sentence.
Yet those who don't take the bad times with the good are by your measure "gloryhunters", right? And you don't regard yourself as a better fan? Come off it.
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Really? Perhaps you can tell me where. All I've seen is a load of self-righteousness invariably followed by 'you're saying you're a better fan then me'.
Indeed, people don't have to go to the match if they don't want. And others have the right to comment on them.
How about this one for starters?
"I cant understand why there are some on here who criticise everything the club does, can't be bothered to go to the match on the back of one disappointing summer (but they're not part-timers or gloryhunters, oh no), throw abuse at Randy, then get upset when their commitment is questioned. " And then contrasting it with your own level of commitment.
If you don't believe those you are describing to be an inferior supporter in some way, then why is this debate even happening? If there's nothing wrong in behaving that way, why do you feel the need as you say "to comment on them"?
I can't understand why anyone would behave like that. I also can't understand why such behaviour should be defended and why you've spent all afternoon in a strop because it's been pointed out.
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I'll say it again; I don't regard myself as a better fan but I feel that as a supporter I have to take the bad times with the good. Note the use of "I" several times in that sentence.
Yet those who don't take the bad times with the good are by your measure "gloryhunters", right? And you don't regard yourself as a better fan? Come off it.
What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
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nobody likes a part time supporter!
But we need part-time supporters. We only have a 'hard-core' support of about 30,000, we will never fill the ground unless we attract part-time supporters.
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I can't understand why anyone would behave like that. I also can't understand why such behaviour should be defended and why you've spent all afternoon in a strop because it's been pointed out.
"Such behaviour"?? We're talking about someone doing something else instead of going to a game. Get over yourself Dave. And the reason I've been posting is precisely because you've been giving it the 'better fan than you' sanctimony all afternoon.
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I'll say it again; I don't regard myself as a better fan but I feel that as a supporter I have to take the bad times with the good. Note the use of "I" several times in that sentence.
Yet those who don't take the bad times with the good are by your measure "gloryhunters", right? And you don't regard yourself as a better fan? Come off it.
It's a widely used term. What is your understanding of it?
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I'll say it again; I don't regard myself as a better fan but I feel that as a supporter I have to take the bad times with the good. Note the use of "I" several times in that sentence.
Yet those who don't take the bad times with the good are by your measure "gloryhunters", right? And you don't regard yourself as a better fan? Come off it.
Sorry hilts, I don't think Chris Smith coined the term. I already stated that I hate the 'real fan' discussion but I believe someone that follows a team only in the good times is pretty much accepted as the definition of a gloryhunter. Not attaching the term to anyone, of course.
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I can't understand why anyone would behave like that. I also can't understand why such behaviour should be defended and why you've spent all afternoon in a strop because it's been pointed out.
"Such behaviour"?? We're talking about someone doing something else instead of going to a game. Get over yourself Dave. And the reason I've been posting is precisely because you've been giving it the 'better fan than you' sanctimony all afternoon.
I think your own personal ironymeter just blew up. Have a look back at your posts and see how many of them have been accusing me & Chris of insulting you. And while you're at it, check who uses the words 'better fan than you' most often.
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What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
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I think your own personal ironymeter just blew up. Have a look back at your posts and see how many of them have been accusing me & Chris of insulting you. And while you're at it, check who uses the words 'better fan than you' most often.
Yes that would be none, Dave. Perhaps I'll also check on who has been slagging off other fans for having the temerity to be less committed than you.
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Is the term 'fairweather fan' of any use in this debate?
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What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I gdon't think they've done anything wrong at all.
I agree, it's their money and their choice, although by the same token, they'll be wanting a ticket for Wembley if we reach a cup final.
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Is the term 'fairweather fan' of any use in this debate?
Or part-time supporters, as Dave Cooper has pointed out, which is more accurate and non-disparaging.
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What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
There are glory hunters in sports that have no trophies. From my experience it is used to describe people that just follow teams that win.
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What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
There are glory hunters in sports that have no trophies. From my experience it is used to describe people that just follow teams that win.
If we're talking about Man United, Chelsea and so on, it amounts to the same thing. I certainly don't think it could be applied to anyone who supports Villa.
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I already stated that I hate the 'real fan' discussion but I believe someone that follows a team only in the good times is pretty much accepted as the definition of a gloryhunter. Not attaching the term to anyone, of course.
This is far too simplistic. There are a lot of people out there who see football as an entertainment and that Villa are their chosen source of entertainment. If the entertainment is no longer seen to be a) entertaining enough or b) just not worth the cost, then they'll find entertainment elsewhere. They're not gloryhunters as such - these are, in my mind, Brummie Reds who support Man Utd simply because they're successful or percived to be glamourous.
The above are different from "fans" in the strictest sense of the word (fanatic) who will turn up whether they're being entertained or not. It's easy for the latter group to sneer at the former and not without a lot of good reason (I have nothing but admiration for those who go to all the games, distance, cost and time no object to their devotion), but the fact is without the former group we're boned, becasue we don't have enough of the latter.
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What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
What if I was choosing not to go to VP at the moment because things look shit, but then if we found ourselves near the top of the league come Christmas and bought a half season ticket? We haven't won anything at Xmas, but surely i'd fall into the gloryhunter category?
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What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
What if I was choosing not to go to VP at the moment because things look shit, but then if we found ourselves near the top of the league come Christmas and bought a half season ticket? We haven't won anything at Xmas, but surely i'd fall into the gloryhunter category?
I'd say you were someone who thought that the entertainment was worth the price of half-season ticket.
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If we're talking about Man United, Chelsea and so on, it amounts to the same thing. I certainly don't think it could be applied to anyone who supports Villa.
Not arguing your opinion, because it is your opinion. However you are telling people they are wrong because your opinion of the word doesn't match everyone else s.
You only sing when your winning...
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What term would you use for a fan that only goes during the good times and stops going during the bad times?
What is your definition of a gloryhunter?
A gloryhunter is someone who chooses to support a given team because they routinely win trophies. I don't think any Villa supporter could be described a gloryhunter.
Someone who has chosen to stop going this season I can totally understand and I don't think they've done anything wrong at all.
What if I was choosing not to go to VP at the moment because things look shit, but then if we found ourselves near the top of the league come Christmas and bought a half season ticket? We haven't won anything at Xmas, but surely i'd fall into the gloryhunter category?
I'd call you very sensible.....but then I knew that already ;-)
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I've just done a bit of digging on attendances for all this weekends fixtures and corresponding fixtures last season. The list of factors possibly affecting attendance have been well documented numerous times in this thread, so are most of these factors consistent with other teams or just down at Villa Park? Heres the attendance figures:
Fixture - Att. 2011 - (Att. 2010) [+/-]
Aston Villa vs Wolves - 30,776 (38,965) [-8000]
Blackburn vs Everton - 22,826 (25,869) [-3000]
Liverpool vs Bolton - 44,725 (35,400) [+9000]
Newcastle vs Fulham - 42,684 (44,686) [-2000]
Tottenham vs Man City - 36,150 (35,928) [-]
West Brom vs Stoke - 22,909 (24,164) [-1000]
Man Utd vs Arsenal - 75,448 (75,227) [-]
Quite clearly the largest attendance drop this weekend was at Villa Park with over 8000 lower than last season (over 20% drop). Even if you factor in the early kick-off and third home game, this is far excessive compared to the other 3 games that had a reduced attendance given all the other consistent factors.
In my opinion, the performance of the club off the pitch this summer in terms of appointing AM and transfer activity are clearly having a negative affect on attendance as seen so far this season and it cannot be ignored or denied with any kind of positive spin. Obviously further evidence with forthcoming fixtures will prove this to be true or false, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that we will see similar or lower attendances for Newcastle, Wigan and Baggies.
I'd say Saturday's attendance was nothing out of the ordinary.
Sorry, not read all the thread but go back to 2009, you'll see the attendance for the bank holiday weekend was 32,917. I'm guessing Fulham brought as many fans as Wolves. This was, not that you'll need reminding, under the management of MON, a top six finish and qualification to the Europa League, after our highest spending summer window ever, a 3-1 win at Anfield and not a lunchtime kick off or live on TV.
Fair comment but all that merely suggests that Villa fans may be less likely to attend on a bank holiday weekend than supporters of other clubs, and to make it valid you would also have to compare attendances for all other games played on that weekend compared to previous season.
Like I said, we will see over the next few home games whether or not the August bank holiday weekend, early kick-off time, 3 home games and other factors mentioned had a major impact on the low attendance against Wolves, however I'm pretty sure fans are voting with their feet right now more than some people are acknowledging...for me, the bank holiday, early kick off and 3rd home game does not account for a drop of over 8000 for a Midlands derby game even if you factor in the cost issues which affect supporters of every club up and down the country.
Obviously if AM makes a few decent signings this week then we could actually see a rise in attendance...and I have all my fingers crossed that this will be the case.
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I've said it before but football fans are no different from any other social group in that they need someone they feel they can look down on. If you have a season ticket, you might get looked down if you don't go to away games. Or you might not sing, or you might sit in the 'wrong' part of the ground, or whatever. This discussion is the same as those, and basically a bit ridiculous.
So there are people who pick and choose when they go to games, perhaps as others have said on the basis of whether they think it'll be entertaining. So what. If you have a need to feel superior to them then so be it, but you have to realise it's a bit silly for grown men to act that way.
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So apparently it was fancy dress day last Saturday,
10,000 Villa fans decided to go as seats.
... :(
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Not arguing your opinion, because it is your opinion. However you are telling people they are wrong because your opinion of the word doesn't match everyone else s.
You only sing when your winning...
Well Chris asked for my definition and I gave it. My point really was that the phrase is, in football terms, disparaging and offensive. Which is precisely why people use it.
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I already stated that I hate the 'real fan' discussion but I believe someone that follows a team only in the good times is pretty much accepted as the definition of a gloryhunter. Not attaching the term to anyone, of course.
This is far too simplistic. There are a lot of people out there who see football as an entertainment and that Villa are their chosen source of entertainment. If the entertainment is no longer seen to be a) entertaining enough or b) just not worth the cost, then they'll find entertainment elsewhere. They're not gloryhunters as such - these are, in my mind, Brummie Reds who support Man Utd simply because they're successful or percived to be glamourous.
The above are different from "fans" in the strictest sense of the word (fanatic) who will turn up whether they're being entertained or not. It's easy for the latter group to sneer at the former and not without a lot of good reason (I have nothing but admiration for those who go to all the games, distance, cost and time no object to their devotion), but the fact is without the former group we're boned, becasue we don't have enough of the latter.
Now that opens the 'better fan' debate though. Is a better fan one who loves Villa and supports them regardless, or one who thinks that winning is great and will try and go only when they win? If we discuss which is better for Villa, I'd be willing. But otherwise I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
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Not arguing your opinion, because it is your opinion. However you are telling people they are wrong because your opinion of the word doesn't match everyone else s.
You only sing when your winning...
Well Chris asked for my definition and I gave it. My point really was that the phrase is, in football terms, disparaging and offensive. Which is precisely why people use it.
It's a convenient short hand rather than having to say "the type of fan who is only interested when things are going well and who will withdraw his support when he thinks his team might lose".
The only time I used it was to say that when that attitude is attributed to Manu fans they're called glory hunters. At which point you decided to be offended.
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I've just done a bit of digging on attendances for all this weekends fixtures and corresponding fixtures last season. The list of factors possibly affecting attendance have been well documented numerous times in this thread, so are most of these factors consistent with other teams or just down at Villa Park? Heres the attendance figures:
Fixture - Att. 2011 - (Att. 2010) [+/-]
Aston Villa vs Wolves - 30,776 (38,965) [-8000]
Blackburn vs Everton - 22,826 (25,869) [-3000]
Liverpool vs Bolton - 44,725 (35,400) [+9000]
Newcastle vs Fulham - 42,684 (44,686) [-2000]
Tottenham vs Man City - 36,150 (35,928) [-]
West Brom vs Stoke - 22,909 (24,164) [-1000]
Man Utd vs Arsenal - 75,448 (75,227) [-]
Quite clearly the largest attendance drop this weekend was at Villa Park with over 8000 lower than last season (over 20% drop). Even if you factor in the early kick-off and third home game, this is far excessive compared to the other 3 games that had a reduced attendance given all the other consistent factors.
In my opinion, the performance of the club off the pitch this summer in terms of appointing AM and transfer activity are clearly having a negative affect on attendance as seen so far this season and it cannot be ignored or denied with any kind of positive spin. Obviously further evidence with forthcoming fixtures will prove this to be true or false, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that we will see similar or lower attendances for Newcastle, Wigan and Baggies.
I'd say Saturday's attendance was nothing out of the ordinary.
Sorry, not read all the thread but go back to 2009, you'll see the attendance for the bank holiday weekend was 32,917. I'm guessing Fulham brought as many fans as Wolves. This was, not that you'll need reminding, under the management of MON, a top six finish and qualification to the Europa League, after our highest spending summer window ever, a 3-1 win at Anfield and not a lunchtime kick off or live on TV.
Fair comment but all that merely suggests that Villa fans may be less likely to attend on a bank holiday weekend than supporters of other clubs, and to make it valid you would also have to compare attendances for all other games played on that weekend compared to previous season.
Like I said, we will see over the next few home games whether or not the August bank holiday weekend, early kick-off time, 3 home games and other factors mentioned had a major impact on the low attendance against Wolves, however I'm pretty sure fans are voting with their feet right now more than some people are acknowledging...for me, the bank holiday, early kick off and 3rd home game does not account for a drop of over 8000 for a Midlands derby game even if you factor in the cost issues which affect supporters of every club up and down the country.
Obviously if AM makes a few decent signings this week then we could actually see a rise in attendance...and I have all my fingers crossed that this will be the case.
Let's get this straight, Villa fans aren't fickle, they're bloody drama queens, a new breed of fan bought about by the 'nanny' club Lerner has created. If it wasn't the lack of transfer spend, it would be because the General didn't tell Randy to appoint the manager they wanted, the fact Lerner only has one Villa tattoo, why we're not spending as much as Spurs or why we have no free travel to away games. After hearing how Arsenal are to financially compensate their fans who traveled to Old Trafford yesterday, I'm almost certain there's somebody, somewhere, writing on a Villa forum, asking the General for his money back after our draw at the weekend.
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Is a better fan one who loves Villa and supports them regardless
That's certainly the one the moneymen prefer. Like I said before, they would regard those fans as the ultimate consumers because they'll pay whatever it costs, regardless of quality and they'll never stop going. It took businessmen a long time to cotton on to that but once they did, football was only going to go one way.
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Not arguing your opinion, because it is your opinion. However you are telling people they are wrong because your opinion of the word doesn't match everyone else s.
You only sing when your winning...
Well Chris asked for my definition and I gave it. My point really was that the phrase is, in football terms, disparaging and offensive. Which is precisely why people use it.
Fair enough, of course some find it offensive. It mostly has negative associations, it's been used on this board for other fans and players without issue in the past so it seems a bit odd to try and redefine it now. I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.
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I think your own personal ironymeter just blew up. Have a look back at your posts and see how many of them have been accusing me & Chris of insulting you. And while you're at it, check who uses the words 'better fan than you' most often.
Yes that would be none, Dave. Perhaps I'll also check on who has been slagging off other fans for having the temerity to be less committed than you.
Really?
And the reason I've been posting is precisely because you've been giving it the 'better fan than you' sanctimony all afternoon.
And you don't regard yourself as a better fan? Come off it.
Rubbish. You've been sneering at people you consider to be inferior all afternoon. Only now, when it has been pointed out to you by several people, you say "Offensive? Me? Never." Classic Smith.
Whether it has been directed at me personally on this particular occasion is irrelevant; your attitude is offensive.
I think you'll find plenty of the sneering, 'I'm a better fan than you' nonsense on the main forum. Some of it with your name attached, regrettably.
So there isn't any dog's abuse, you just made it up.
Of course there is, and you've been typing a good chunk of it.
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I've just done a bit of digging on attendances for all this weekends fixtures and corresponding fixtures last season. The list of factors possibly affecting attendance have been well documented numerous times in this thread, so are most of these factors consistent with other teams or just down at Villa Park? Heres the attendance figures:
Fixture - Att. 2011 - (Att. 2010) [+/-]
Aston Villa vs Wolves - 30,776 (38,965) [-8000]
Blackburn vs Everton - 22,826 (25,869) [-3000]
Liverpool vs Bolton - 44,725 (35,400) [+9000]
Newcastle vs Fulham - 42,684 (44,686) [-2000]
Tottenham vs Man City - 36,150 (35,928) [-]
West Brom vs Stoke - 22,909 (24,164) [-1000]
Man Utd vs Arsenal - 75,448 (75,227) [-]
Quite clearly the largest attendance drop this weekend was at Villa Park with over 8000 lower than last season (over 20% drop). Even if you factor in the early kick-off and third home game, this is far excessive compared to the other 3 games that had a reduced attendance given all the other consistent factors.
In my opinion, the performance of the club off the pitch this summer in terms of appointing AM and transfer activity are clearly having a negative affect on attendance as seen so far this season and it cannot be ignored or denied with any kind of positive spin. Obviously further evidence with forthcoming fixtures will prove this to be true or false, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that we will see similar or lower attendances for Newcastle, Wigan and Baggies.
I'd say Saturday's attendance was nothing out of the ordinary.
Sorry, not read all the thread but go back to 2009, you'll see the attendance for the bank holiday weekend was 32,917. I'm guessing Fulham brought as many fans as Wolves. This was, not that you'll need reminding, under the management of MON, a top six finish and qualification to the Europa League, after our highest spending summer window ever, a 3-1 win at Anfield and not a lunchtime kick off or live on TV.
Other than the fact that the bank holiday weekend hasnt seemed to affect attendances at other games this weekend, the Fulham game in 2009/10 season only had a 3000 lower attendance of that for the corresponding fixture last season:
Aston Villa vs Fulham
Sunday 30th August 2009
Att: 32,917
Saturday 5th February 2011
Att: 35,899
Even if you remove 3000 to allow for the bank holiday and kick-off time, there is still 5000 that have disappeared from Villa Park. It is quite clear that most of these factors havent had such an adverse affect on attendance for other clubs so to use them as an excuse for our attendance is wrong...there are quite clearly other factors that can be only attributed to the conduct of Aston Villa that have had a more severe affect on our attendance.
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Is a better fan one who loves Villa and supports them regardless
That's certainly the one the moneymen prefer. Like I said before, they would regard those fans as the ultimate consumers because they'll pay whatever it costs, regardless of quality and they'll never stop going. It took businessmen a long time to cotton on to that but once they did, football was only going to go one way.
I would prefer it too. Many on this board give other teams grief for their glory hunters, part time fans or 'people that decided to do something else for no reason'. Why does that change when it is our team? You can find threads nailing noses for 'shit support'...but it becomes a tactical decision that is smarter than another fan when we do it? Sorry, I am not one who changes my stance on an issue depending on who does it.
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I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.
I'm not sure that's right. I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football.
In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0. In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.
The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games. They just have different criteria. No more, no less.
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I think your own personal ironymeter just blew up. Have a look back at your posts and see how many of them have been accusing me & Chris of insulting you. And while you're at it, check who uses the words 'better fan than you' most often.
Yes that would be none, Dave. Perhaps I'll also check on who has been slagging off other fans for having the temerity to be less committed than you.
Really?
And the reason I've been posting is precisely because you've been giving it the 'better fan than you' sanctimony all afternoon.
And you don't regard yourself as a better fan? Come off it.
Rubbish. You've been sneering at people you consider to be inferior all afternoon. Only now, when it has been pointed out to you by several people, you say "Offensive? Me? Never." Classic Smith.
Whether it has been directed at me personally on this particular occasion is irrelevant; your attitude is offensive.
I think you'll find plenty of the sneering, 'I'm a better fan than you' nonsense on the main forum. Some of it with your name attached, regrettably.
So there isn't any dog's abuse, you just made it up.
Of course there is, and you've been typing a good chunk of it.
I think a lot of that is from Golden Muppets.
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I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.
I'm not sure that's right. I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football.
In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0. In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.
The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games. They just have different criteria. No more, no less.
I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.
I'm not sure that's right. I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football.
In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0. In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.
The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games. They just have different criteria. No more, no less.
Sums me up perfectly Hilts. I don't give a monkey's what anyone thinks of me as a fan as a result. I've never ever met a gloryhunting Villa fan and it is always a fantastic pleasure to meet anyone of a claret and blue persuasion down here as you will be guaranteed they are the genuine article, whether they manage to go or not. Whilst I don't consider anyone to be a better or worse fan than me, I recognise that when the prizes are handed out such as LC final tickets, people like Frank who go all over the country home and away every week have a far more legit claim to be there than I do. That doesn't bother me one iota as I see it as being perfectly and utterly fair...
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Sums me up perfectly Hilts. I don't give a monkey's what anyone thinks of me as a fan as a result. I've never ever met a gloryhunting Villa fan and it is always a fantastic pleasure to meet anyone of a claret and blue persuasion down here as you will be guaranteed they are the genuine article, whether they manage to go or not. Whilst I don't consider anyone to be a better or worse fan than me, I recognise that when the prizes are handed out such as LC final tickets, people like Frank who go all over the country home and away every week have a far more legit claim to be there than I do. That doesn't bother me one iota as I see it as being perfectly and utterly fair...
Absolutely right. When we got to the League Cup final and the FA Cup semi, I would dearly love to have gone but was perfectly happy to acknowledge that those who'd been going all season long should get priority. No problem with that at all. But equally I attach no value judgement to that.
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I can understand disappointment when your team is not doing well, I just boggle at abandoning it temporarily until they start to win again. And THAT is what the topic has been, not 'people just deciding not to go'.
I'm not sure that's right. I think people have stopped going because of one or more of the following things: the quality of the football, the cost, the minute chance of us winning anything, the reduced expectations around the club, and the general state of football.
In actual fact I think more people would go if the games were exciting than if we won a succession of dour games 1-0. In that sense I don't think results is the main issue.
The point is that these people are no better or worse than anyone else who goes to games. They just have different criteria. No more, no less.
I can only speak about my own viewpoint Hilts, and not for one second am I calling every fan who isn't at every game a gloryhunter. Be it money, work, distance, family, falling out of love with the game as a whole or any of the other many things real life throws up. A number of those have stopped me going over the years.
My use of the term is aimed at those who have stated that their primary or only reason for not going, be it on here, other sites, phone ins etc is a mix of who is the manager, things look shit, we aren't going to win anything and so on.
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My use of the term is aimed at those who have stated that their primary or only reason for not going, be it on here, other sites, phone ins etc is a mix of who is the manager, things look shit, we aren't going to win anything and so on.
Pretty much the original discussion as I see it, before the debate over the term glory hunter added additional reasons.
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Where has Dave made that connection, that's purely your invention.
So why then are the fans getting all the stick? I've not seen Dave, or you for that matter, offer any criticism of those responsible for the situation the club finds itself in, merely sneering criticism of those fans who for whatever reason have decided to stop going, as if its entirely their fault. To use Dave's own expression: when in doubt, blame the fans.
Rather than using stay-away fans as some sort of reason for the club's malaise, you perhaps ought to see them for what they are, i.e. a symptom of the club's malaise.
It's not a criticism of fans who "for whatever reason have decided to stop going". It was a specific response to the KFC analogy that we're merely customers and withdrawing your support because we're not spending as much.
The point I tried to make was the playing squad is being sold off piece by piece to balance the books. I therefore don`t think it’s a wise move to ask the fans to pay even more to watch it.
As someone else posted the club needs the part time/fair weather/glory hunter fan (delete as appropriate) more than they need the club.
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For me a Glory Hunter is someone who choses to support a Team that they have no connection with because they know that they are more likely than not to be able to cover themselves in reflected glory. Hardly the background of any Villa fans I have met . I will also accept that people who turn up week in week out regardless, are better fans than me. But calling those that are chosing to stay away Glory Hunters is offensive and naive.
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Could be just down to the fact that people are broke...........................
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As a former seller of H&V I can make an relative informed comment on the Villa Fan base.
I used to get far more comments along the lines of...
"is it the programme?"
"it's been a while since I have been, where's the Holte End again?"
When we played the likes of Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea
And zero comments as above when we played Bolton, Portsmouth or Blackburn
I would say we have always had fans that will attend VP dependant on who we are playing not simply just to see the Villa no matter who the opposition is.
To use a business analogy, when you put a product 'on offer' you will see an increase in sales, once the offer is over you can generally assume that you will loose about 75% of the increase in sales. I would say that Villa have been 'on offer' since Randy took over and the offer has just ended. Should the attendance levels continue to reduce then we are seeing a return to pre offer levels.
I have been attending Villa since the mid 80's and I can remember the piss poor attendances back then that make Saturday's 30,000 seem like a massive crowd.
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Where has Dave made that connection, that's purely your invention.
So why then are the fans getting all the stick? I've not seen Dave, or you for that matter, offer any criticism of those responsible for the situation the club finds itself in, merely sneering criticism of those fans who for whatever reason have decided to stop going, as if its entirely their fault. To use Dave's own expression: when in doubt, blame the fans.
Rather than using stay-away fans as some sort of reason for the club's malaise, you perhaps ought to see them for what they are, i.e. a symptom of the club's malaise.
It's not a criticism of fans who "for whatever reason have decided to stop going". It was a specific response to the KFC analogy that we're merely customers and withdrawing your support because we're not spending as much.
The point I tried to make was the playing squad is being sold off piece by piece to balance the books. I therefore don`t think it’s a wise move to ask the fans to pay even more to watch it.
As someone else posted the club needs the part time/fair weather/glory hunter fan (delete as appropriate) more than they need the club.
Fair enough, I think I understand better now.
If we're talking about cost then you won't get any argument from me, it's far too expensive.
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Trouble is if we drop our prices we still fall behind our competitors.
I think the Board's plan was that we would pack out Villa Park week after week, and extend it to 50,000+ and still pack it out. Maybe Randy thought this would be pretty easy as even the shite teams in the NFL (eg Cleveland Browns) tend to get full houses every game.
If you look at some comments on old General Threads, you'll see he mentions gates fairly often. In the early days, when asked about the North Stand expansion, he says it will happen as soon as we get capacity crowds every week. Later on he mentions crowds more often and is fairly critical of the gate after the Man City game (first game after we signed Bent). I think the plan was that Randy would bankroll us for the first few seasons. Then, with Champions League football, increased sponsorship and 50,000 people packing into Villa Park, we would begin to pay our own way. Unfortunately, it hasn't quite worked out like that.
Those who criticise the Board for lack of investment then can't be arsed to invest £30 in buying a match ticket come across as fairly hyprocritical in my book I'm afraid. Fair enough if you are unemployed or concerned about your job... or you live far from Villa Park, but there are plenty of moaning, comfortably-off Brummie Villans that won't set foot in the stadium. Until we play Man U or Chelsea... then they remember the way to Aston.
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As a former seller of H&V I can make an relative informed comment on the Villa Fan base.
I used to get far more comments along the lines of...
"is it the programme?"
"it's been a while since I have been, where's the Holte End again?"
When we played the likes of Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea
And zero comments as above when we played Bolton, Portsmouth or Blackburn
I would say we have always had fans that will attend VP dependant on who we are playing not simply just to see the Villa no matter who the opposition is.
To use a business analogy, when you put a product 'on offer' you will see an increase in sales, once the offer is over you can generally assume that you will loose about 75% of the increase in sales. I would say that Villa have been 'on offer' since Randy took over and the offer has just ended. Should the attendance levels continue to reduce then we are seeing a return to pre offer levels.
I have been attending Villa since the mid 80's and I can remember the piss poor attendances back then that make Saturday's 30,000 seem like a massive crowd.
There's a good couple of analogies there. One thing I've also noticed over the past couple of years is the lack of daytripper coaches. We used to always have a few coaches of obviously not Villa supporters (the Sky 4 shirts gave it away) turning up but they're not there anymore.
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I think the Board's plan was that we would pack out Villa Park week after week, and extend it to 50,000+ and still pack it out. Maybe Randy thought this would be pretty easy as even the shite teams in the NFL (eg Cleveland Browns) tend to get full houses every game.
Actually the Browns used to defy the trend and pack the house regardless. They used to be considered one of the best fanbases in the league. If you want a good comparison go with the Bengals down in Cincy. When the team is good, the fans show up. Most times they are too 'busy doing other things'. Now, when the team sucks, you can travel thru town and hear the team advertising who they are playing against to draw fans. The Bengals have some loyal fans, but most are often teased for jumping on the bandwagon when the team is winning.
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I think CDV makes a good point about the way attendances didn't keep growing. There was a lot of talk at the time of the takeover about how we were the PL club most primed for growth and all it took wax the right stewardship to unlock that latent potential.
Unfortunately, it didn't happen and I'm sure we all have our ideas as to why but if their business plan was based on achieving that increase then it would help explain why they're now restructuring.
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I think the Board's plan was that we would pack out Villa Park week after week, and extend it to 50,000+ and still pack it out. Maybe Randy thought this would be pretty easy as even the shite teams in the NFL (eg Cleveland Browns) tend to get full houses every game.
Actually the Browns used to defy the trend and pack the house regardless. They used to be considered one of the best fanbases in the league. If you want a good comparison go with the Bengals down in Cincy. When the team is good, the fans show up. Most times they are too 'busy doing other things'. Now, when the team sucks, you can travel thru town and hear the team advertising who they are playing against to draw fans. The Bengals have some loyal fans, but most are often teased for jumping on the bandwagon when the team is winning.
I also think they didn't understand the difference between an American Football game and one of ours. Over there it's about 24 teams in a population of 250 million and eight home games a season (tell me if I'm wrong) so fanbases are massive and every game is an event.
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I think the Board's plan was that we would pack out Villa Park week after week, and extend it to 50,000+ and still pack it out. Maybe Randy thought this would be pretty easy as even the shite teams in the NFL (eg Cleveland Browns) tend to get full houses every game.
Actually the Browns used to defy the trend and pack the house regardless. They used to be considered one of the best fanbases in the league. If you want a good comparison go with the Bengals down in Cincy. When the team is good, the fans show up. Most times they are too 'busy doing other things'. Now, when the team sucks, you can travel thru town and hear the team advertising who they are playing against to draw fans. The Bengals have some loyal fans, but most are often teased for jumping on the bandwagon when the team is winning.
I also think they didn't understand the difference between an American Football game and one of ours. Over there it's about 24 teams in a population of 250 million and eight home games a season (tell me if I'm wrong) so fanbases are massive and every game is an event.
There is a large difference in home games played, it is alot easier to pay for 8+ tickets for a season. However I do not think you have to worry about the PSL in England, which in a nutshell is something you buy that allows you to buy season tickets. In order to purchase season tickets you purchase a PSL, which gives you the right to buy tickets to that seat. *cringe
In Cleveland growing up we averaged around 88,000 tickets a home game...which was capacity. Win or lose, we were full. Now things have changed in modern times...
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I have spent some time in Green Bay and can confirm that each game is a massive event. The population of Green Bay doubles over a game weekend.
The club is at the heart of Green Bay, when they needed to re build the ground they needed funds so they asked Green Bay if they would pay for it via a tax. The population voted yes and the club built a fantastic stadium that has bars, clubs, restaurants that can be used by the population 24/7.
There is a large waiting list for season tickets, it is a great example of club, fans and city working together to better everyone.
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Yes, Green Bay is a franchise I am jealous of. Owned by the community, probably can never be moved.
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The paying fans in the normal seats are is one issue, a barometer of what the fanbase think of the club/the football/chance of success etc... the bigger problem Villa have is filling the corporate seats, where the real money is generated.
When Learner took over we were the only Premiership Club for 70 miles, which makes a box, corporate tickets etc much easier to sell, last season there were 5 midlands teams, this will have more of an effect on match day revenue that losing 8000 pay on the day fans...
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If we were a consistently successful side ala Arsenal, Chelsea we would get the gates. Trouble is that we never will challenge like they o
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The Browns cheapest seats are £25 for an 8 game season.
How much would we pay for an 8 game season.
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Apart from the financial side for fans the whole predictability of the bloated Premier League thing is just too much.
We're not going to make Europe and (hopefully) won't be relegated. We know our place and it's pretty dull. When the likes of us, Spurs and maybe even Arsenal are just feeder clubs then what is the point at thirty five quid a ticket?
Things will only start to change when fans of the other clubs in the 5th-16th bracket stop going and every club has empty seats, making it a less than Super Sunday for Sky to mercilessly hype. Or the top 4 sod off (and please do) to a tedious Euro league.
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I think you have a good point, when they turned supporting a Team into a product (and our club went along with this), then they exposed themselves to the Product Life Cycle. (Its a Bell Curve) At the top of the curve you have saturation followed by decline.
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This whole debate is worthy of some professional market research by the club. When MON and Randy arrived I think there was a belief that we were going places and that we would see some great players and football down at Villa Park. This would lead to success – probably defined as pushing on the doors of the top 4, European football in some guise, and frequent full houses.
We came pretty close to this in 2007-9, when from memory we had our highest average attendances in over 40 years and finished 6th in consecutive seasons. We thought that this was a springboard and not a glass ceiling. This proved that when there is decent football (and there was some decent football) coupled with a belief in the club, fans will make tracks to Villa Park. Call it hope if you will, an important ingredient for any fan.
We ran out of steam in 2008 and 2009, the Man City millions kicked in and Gareth Barry left in the summer of 2009. We were still competitive but had been usurped by Man City and Spurs. A key moment for me was driving home after the Liverpool last minute defeat at VP in December 2009. This was a couple of days after a 3-0 drubbing at Arsenal, giving us a gloomy festive season and time to reflect on being undone by Fabregas and Torres. Graham Taylor was on 5 Live and said that Villa had made enormous progress, were well established at the top end of the table, but did not have the players with a spark of true class to overcome the big 4 or beat teams who simply came to defend. Villa would need that touch of genius to move to the next level and truly compete for the Champions League, was his summary. He also said we would have difficulty attracting that type of player. In that instant I felt that I was acknowledging that we would not get beyond 6th place.
In the last 2 years we have sold our best and most consistently influential players, who are now aiming to fulfil the ambitions that we held for the Villa at other clubs. It is normal that fans now wonder what the club is aiming for. High prices, a bank holiday weekend, stupid kick off times (have we ever had any serious trouble between Villa and Wolves, for God’s sake) and some erosion of hope probably all account for Saturday’s low attendance.
I think the club needs to act quickly and do everything possible to bring fans back. Other than winning and attractive football there are no easy answers. However, I have always believed that Midlands fans are very price sensitive – get the prices right and fans will come. For example, we tend to have lower crowds for televised games – we can watch in the pub for the price of a pint. This trend is not necessarily the same across the country. Cheap tickets make a difference to us - 21K for Hereford was a good crowd in the context of other attendances that night. Pre-season games in recent years and Intertoto games v Basel and co show that when we offer cheap deals we will fill Villa Park (or maybe these crowds are simply the result of being starved of a Villa fix for the summer months and keeping the kids occupied cheaply). I know this would result in lower matchday revenue but I hope it would be partly offset by higher off-pitch sales, hooking kids and adults into the club, and even generate more positivity in the ground: I know I prefer sitting in a full section as opposed to lounging across three seats. As a worst case scenario, just install more claret seats – I hate to see those swathes of empty sky blue around Villa Park.
A couple of signings before tomorrow night could completely change everything of course…..
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I disagree with the posters who think all fans are the same no matter how often they go to games, that there are no 'better than others' fans, it's a load of bullshit, of coarse there is
If you go to all/most games you are a better more committed fan than someone who never goes but maybe posts on a Internet site, it's pretty obvious, there maybe a few who would go regulary but can't afford it, they have a justified excuse, bit mainly it's people who for whatever reason don't live near the ground or have other things to do, just accept you not as good a fan as someone who moves heaven and earth to attend, it's pretty bloody obvious.
I'm not a regular attendee anymore, I used to be a lot 'better supporter' than I am now, I fully admit it, there's loads of better supporters than me on here, and a dare say a few worse.
To just say we are all the same on are love and commitment to the Villa coarse is just a load of bollocks, they are a few great Villa supporters on here I've met one or two of them, I they are a lot better supporter than me and certainly those who post there strong views but never go
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Pat makes perfect sense with his post! (See what I've done there?).
To summarise Villa need to put on a good show on the pitch forget who the manager is at the moment, put some deals together for match day tickets especially for families and advertise these in an appropriate way. It won't necessarily work every time but at the Blackburn match which I thoroughly enjoyed there were a lot of families in section Q but they won't be able to afford to go every week because money is tight at the moment. As I have to factor in travel costs when I attend the matches I am always on the look out fort any cheap tickets!
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I disagree with the posters who think all fans are the same no matter how often they go to games, that there are no 'better than others' fans, it's a load of bullshit, of coarse there is
If you go to all/most games you are a better more committed fan than someone who never goes but maybe posts on a Internet site, it's pretty obvious, there maybe a few who would go regulary but can't afford it, they have a justified excuse, bit mainly it's people who for whatever reason don't live near the ground or have other things to do, just accept you not as good a fan as someone who moves heaven and earth to attend, it's pretty bloody obvious.
I'm not a regular attendee anymore, I used to be a lot 'better supporter' than I am now, I fully admit it, there's loads of better supporters than me on here, and a dare say a few worse.
To just say we are all the same on are love and commitment to the Villa coarse is just a load of bollocks, they are a few great Villa supporters on here I've met one or two of them, I they are a lot better supporter than me and certainly those who post there strong views but never go
Bit of a mare with the word "coarse" there, John.
Of course, one speaks coarsely of fickle fans and glory hunters who won't stay the course then get on their high horse. Horses for courses, innit.
I agree with the thrust of your argument, though.
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Disillusioned in our case. It's been a while since anyone could accuse a Villa fan of being a glory hunter.
Just over twelve months since fifty odd thousand were scrambling round for our Wembley tickets you mean!
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I disagree with the posters who think all fans are the same no matter how often they go to games, that there are no 'better than others' fans, it's a load of bullshit, of coarse there is
If you go to all/most games you are a better more committed fan than someone who never goes but maybe posts on a Internet site, it's pretty obvious, there maybe a few who would go regulary but can't afford it, they have a justified excuse, bit mainly it's people who for whatever reason don't live near the ground or have other things to do, just accept you not as good a fan as someone who moves heaven and earth to attend, it's pretty bloody obvious.
I'm not a regular attendee anymore, I used to be a lot 'better supporter' than I am now, I fully admit it, there's loads of better supporters than me on here, and a dare say a few worse.
To just say we are all the same on are love and commitment to the Villa coarse is just a load of bollocks, they are a few great Villa supporters on here I've met one or two of them, I they are a lot better supporter than me and certainly those who post there strong views but never go
Bit of a mare with the word "coarse" there, John.
Of course, one speaks coarsely of fickle fans and glory hunters who won't stay the course then get on their high horse. Horses for courses, innit.
I agree with the thrust of your argument, though.
i'd say its a bit embarresssing but i cant even spell that
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Bump
I had another txt from the Villa today about cheap tickets for Newcastle and my mate had a call offering two adults for £40! he hasn't had a season ticket for 4 years, has anyone else had this? Are we getting desperate?
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The main concern is if the ones that go, don't come back at all. And then the club loses out on them bringing their kids, and so on.
Hopefully, if things pick up, fans will start coming back, but that's a big if.
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I just rang villla and been told that I need to pay 18 quid for a 10 year old to come to wigan game , fuck that
I had season tickets for 4 years but got pissed off last season, I am thinking about bringing me and 3 kids to game at cost of 59 quid which i was thinking of doing
But some muppet asked if I lived in B6 or B20 as if I did as a local resident as a gesture of goodwill could come to the game for 5 pounds as they have put with that noice and litter
Villa been in B6 since 1890 something
No residents been there that long
So as I live outside B6 we pay more! sounds like shit marketing to me
I get home my kids come home with 3 free tickets to man city first champion league game and 2 adults as part of manchester community programme
they may become man city fans now
villa your marketing bollocks
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Can you please not post exactly the same thing in two threads.
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This better fan than you is so pathetic and childish, it's what you'd expect from pupils in a junior school. I was a ticket holder for ten years in the 90's, then chose to settle down have kids and a mortgage my priorities changed and personally what spare money I have I'd rather spend on my two daughters. This obviously makes me a lesser fan. Personally the club and many people here believe if you're not a brummie you're not welcome here, a ticket holder mate of mine has been abused in the Holte because he didn't have a brummie accent. I've been told to pop up in my lunch break to pick up tickets by Villa ticket office staff....I live at least an hours drive away. Is this not the problem, when I grew up in Evesham the P.E teacher was always offering free tickets to Wolves and Albion handed out by the Clubs. I even went on a School coach trip to watch Man City. Why does this Club continue to ignore Worcestershire, Gloucestershire. there is a large fanbase down here waiting to be exploited. There again if we turned up would we be welcome with our farmers accent.....by alot of you so called better fans, probably not.
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Why does this Club continue to ignore Worcestershire, Gloucestershire. there is a large fanbase down here waiting to be exploited. There again if we turned up would we be welcome with our farmers accent.....by alot of you so called better fans, probably not.
Maybe they feel they would be better served trying to draw support from the city itself?
Over 1 million people and much closer to the ground, so more likely to come to the game?
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I must be living in a parallel universe or something, but the only time I ever read the phrase "better fan than you" is when people complain that others are using it. Similarly, I have never, ever seen anyone on here say that non-Brummie Villa supporters aren't welcome and furthermore, in all my years of supporting the Villa as a non-Brummie, I haven't been told I'm not welcome either.
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Why does this Club continue to ignore Worcestershire, Gloucestershire. there is a large fanbase down here waiting to be exploited. There again if we turned up would we be welcome with our farmers accent.....by alot of you so called better fans, probably not.
Maybe they feel they would be better served trying to draw support from the city itself?
Over 1 million people and much closer to the ground, so more likely to come to the game?
Both, in an ideal world.
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Why does this Club continue to ignore Worcestershire, Gloucestershire. there is a large fanbase down here waiting to be exploited. There again if we turned up would we be welcome with our farmers accent.....by alot of you so called better fans, probably not.
Maybe they feel they would be better served trying to draw support from the city itself?
Over 1 million people and much closer to the ground, so more likely to come to the game?
Both, in an ideal world.
Who cares where Villa fans come from. If you pay your money, then no one as got any right to criticise. If you have to come a wapping distance to see Vila play, even at home, well, then even more respect is due.
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Why does this Club continue to ignore Worcestershire, Gloucestershire. there is a large fanbase down here waiting to be exploited. There again if we turned up would we be welcome with our farmers accent.....by alot of you so called better fans, probably not.
Maybe they feel they would be better served trying to draw support from the city itself?
Over 1 million people and much closer to the ground, so more likely to come to the game?
Both, in an ideal world.
Who cares where Villa fans come from. If you pay your money, then no one as got any right to criticise. If you have to come a wapping distance to see Vila play, even at home, well, then even more respect is due.
Back in the late 70's and up to the mid 80's Coaches used to arrive for home games from Gloucester, Cheltenham and Worcester, put on I think by the Lions Clubs in those areas. Do these coaches still run? And if not why not?
Just to add the coaches always seemed to be full.
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Why does this Club continue to ignore Worcestershire, Gloucestershire. there is a large fanbase down here waiting to be exploited. There again if we turned up would we be welcome with our farmers accent.....by alot of you so called better fans, probably not.
Maybe they feel they would be better served trying to draw support from the city itself?
Over 1 million people and much closer to the ground, so more likely to come to the game?
Both, in an ideal world.
Who cares where Villa fans come from. If you pay your money, then no one as got any right to criticise. If you have to come a wapping distance to see Vila play, even at home, well, then even more respect is due.
Back in the late 70's and up to the mid 80's Coaches used to arrive for home games from Gloucester, Cheltenham and Worcester, put on I think by the Lions Clubs in those areas. Do these coaches still run? And if not why not?
Just to add the coaches always seemed to be full.
There's quite strong support for Villa in Gloucestershire. Don't know what the set up is like in terms of coaches.
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There's a coach from Cheltenham (last I heard). I live in gloucestershire and its more Manure fans here than anything else. If you go into Evesham however there's a strong Villa connection and a few Blose.
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Our home attendance certainly needs to be addressed, and it right pisses me off that it so low. But our traveling supporters are up there with the best of 'em.
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I also think they didn't understand the difference between an American Football game and one of ours. Over there it's about 24 teams in a population of 250 million and eight home games a season (tell me if I'm wrong) so fanbases are massive and every game is an event.
You're not wrong - every game is a major event, and the season only lasts four months.
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There's a coach from Cheltenham (last I heard). I live in gloucestershire and its more Manure fans here than anything else. If you go into Evesham however there's a strong Villa connection and a few Blose.
Yes, there's still a coach from the 'Nam & Glawster area. I pass it on my way up to most games.
I'm pretty sure that its a Marchants bus, but there's no mention on their website
http://www.marchants-coaches.com/index.html
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Fairly sure it's a private hire from Marchants (by someone called Mark?). I used it once or twice when I lived in the Worcester area a couple of years ago and was looking at alternatives to driving to VP
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There's a coach from Cheltenham (last I heard). I live in gloucestershire and its more Manure fans here than anything else. If you go into Evesham however there's a strong Villa connection and a few Blose.
Yes, there's still a coach from the 'Nam & Glawster area. I pass it on my way up to most games.
I'm pretty sure that its a Marchants bus, but there's no mention on their website
http://www.marchants-coaches.com/index.html
I've seen the coach leaving from The Cross Hands in Cheltenham last season. If anyone has any details about who runs this I'd be interested. Might be cheaper than driving with fuel costs these days!
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Nodge - I'm sure if you ring Marchants they'll be able to give you the details
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You need to phone John Holder who chairs the Gloucestershire Lions club. Details are on the Villa website.
In my day they picked up in Gloucester, Cheltenham and Tewkesbury.
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Cheers CJ, I think there was a guy from Cheltenham who used to run it, always used to see him at away games and I'm sure Dave W posted his name and number on here once, possibly first name John?
edit - Just read cheltenhamlions post, thanks both
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Bump
I had another txt from the Villa today about cheap tickets for Newcastle and my mate had a call offering two adults for £40! he hasn't had a season ticket for 4 years, has anyone else had this? Are we getting desperate?
Yes. I've had it and will be nipping down to take advantage of the offer a bit later.
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Johnnie Holder is a great bloke. If you call, tell him I said hello.
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Johnnie Holder is a great bloke. If you call, tell him I said hello.
Is he a 'Carry On' character?
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No. To quote his song, he is a horses arse:
Johnnie Holder
Johnnie Holder
Johnnie Holder is a horses arse
He's the meanest
He sucks a horses penis
Johnnie Holder is an 'orses arse
He looks like a horses arse
He smells like a horses arse
He is an 'orses arse
All sung loudly in your best bumpkin accent of course!
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I've had a season ticket for pretty much all of my adult life, I'm 38 years old. I've not renewed this season, not because of McLeish, not because of the shitty boring football, and to be honest not even because of the cost.
I haven't renewed for a couple of reasons;
1) The players earn at Villa earn in a week what I do in two years in some cases, and i'm not prepared to give them my hard earned money with Billy 'Big Bollock' attitude they have. I'll watch it in the pub over 3/4 pints.
2) The Premier League is boring and dull. We know before a ball is kicked pretty much that 4 from 5 will play in the Champions League, and 3 from 4/5 will be relegated. I know full well we'll finish somewhere between 8th and 12th.
It's not Villa that is the problem, it's football.
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No. To quote his song, he is a horses arse:
Johnnie Holder
Johnnie Holder
Johnnie Holder is a horses arse
He's the meanest
He sucks a horses penis
Johnnie Holder is an 'orses arse
He looks like a horses arse
He smells like a horses arse
He is an 'orses arse
All sung loudly in your best bumpkin accent of course!
Just opened the 'Woeful Attendance' thread to be greeted at the top of the page by this ditty which threw me somewhat.
Aberdeen fans sing the horse's arse song too, they address referees with it (as opposed to the unfortunate Mr Holder)
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I've had a season ticket for pretty much all of my adult life, I'm 38 years old. I've not renewed this season, not because of McLeish, not because of the shitty boring football, and to be honest not even because of the cost.
I haven't renewed for a couple of reasons;
1) The players earn at Villa earn in a week what I do in two years in some cases, and i'm not prepared to give them my hard earned money with Billy 'Big Bollock' attitude they have. I'll watch it in the pub over 3/4 pints.
2) The Premier League is boring and dull. We know before a ball is kicked pretty much that 4 from 5 will play in the Champions League, and 3 from 4/5 will be relegated. I know full well we'll finish somewhere between 8th and 12th.
It's not Villa that is the problem, it's football.
This is me too - only i'm nearer 48 sadly.
Going on Saturday for the first time this season - £43 to sit in the Witton lower - just wish i could get excited about it but already underwhelmed - will buy a fanzine though ;)
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I had a season ticket for years and did almost every away game but i didn't renew this season and won't be attending a game all season.
There are a few factors:
Lerner. Cutting the wage bill drastically and not replacing our best players. Being more interested in the financial side of things than the football side, bullshitter Krulak said the other week 'our aim is to be in the top 20 in the financial list'. To me that says they're happy as long as we're profitable, sod the football. Our ambition these days is to avoid relegation, finish somewhere around mid table and spend as little money as we can. Then there was the ridiculous appointment of that shite manager.
Mcleish. We all knew before the start of the season exactly how we would play, and he isn't proving us wrong. 'He won a cup at Blues', yes but their fans still hated him and his crap football which says it all. We appointed the manager of our rivals who had got them relegated twice in three years, ambitious. We haven't lost yet but i didn't think we would lose many, i said we would draw loads and play shit, negative football and thats exactly whats happening. No way was i going to pay 500 odd quid to watch that garbage and every game i've seen so far has made me think thank christ i didn't waste my money. Anyone who pays £43 to watch that crap needs their head looking at.
The atmosphere. There isn't one. 100 blokes singing in the upper Holte isn't an atmosphere, nobody can even hear them. Try and stand up and the stewards threaten to throw you out, thats when theres something to actually sing about. The football isn't exciting at all so the fans have nothing to get excited about and nothing to sing about. I do miss the atmosphere at away games, but even our away fans don't sing as much as they used to and we only took 1800 to Everton and we've got 1600 for QPR so it seems the away go-ers have had enough aswell.
The players. £43 to watch the likes of Petrov and Heskey? No thanks.
The Premier League. Only 3 teams can win it, another 3 teams will finish in the European places and we will finish 8th-12th if we're lucky with injuries and below 12th if injuries hit. Then theres the standard of a lot of games, Fulham v Villa and Villa v Wolves were absolutely dire.
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How the hell did Borussia Dortmund average 78,740 fans last season coming from a city of only 585,045?
Their average attendance was bested only by Barcelona's average of 81,500.
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How the hell did Borussia Dortmund average 78,740 fans last season coming from a city of only 585,045?
Their average attendance was bested only by Barcelona's average of 81,500.
Perhaps the tickets were affordable.
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How the hell did Borussia Dortmund average 78,740 fans last season coming from a city of only 585,045?
Their average attendance was bested only by Barcelona's average of 81,500.
Tickets in Germany are dirt cheap compared to over here. I remember one game, i think it was Dortmund v Schalke, they were being asked to pay about £20 to stand on a terrace and they said they would boycott the game because it was too expensive and the club backed down and lowered the prices. Fans in this country would love to pay £20 to stand on a terrace to watch a top flight game. Terracing is another big factor, every ground over there has a safe standing area. Dortmund have a terraced stand that holds 28,000 and the atmosphere is usually electric. If they made the lower Holte terraced and charged £20 you would get the normal fans come back who have been priced out of it or simply don't want to pay £43.
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How the hell did Borussia Dortmund average 78,740 fans last season coming from a city of only 585,045?
Their average attendance was bested only by Barcelona's average of 81,500.
Perhaps the tickets were affordable.
I guess so.
If we adopted the German model - i.e. cheap tickets, safe standing, fan orientated experience etc etc - and let's say we had a 60,000 seater stadium, does anyone think we would fill it?
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How the hell did Borussia Dortmund average 78,740 fans last season coming from a city of only 585,045?
Their average attendance was bested only by Barcelona's average of 81,500.
Perhaps the tickets were affordable.
I guess so.
If we adopted the German model - i.e. cheap tickets, fan orientated experience etc etc - and let's say we had a 60,000 seater stadium, does anyone think we would fill it?
yep, when Take That come again
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How the hell did Borussia Dortmund average 78,740 fans last season coming from a city of only 585,045?
Their average attendance was bested only by Barcelona's average of 81,500.
Tickets in Germany are dirt cheap compared to over here. I remember one game, i think it was Dortmund v Schalke, they were being asked to pay about £20 to stand on a terrace and they said they would boycott the game because it was too expensive and the club backed down and lowered the prices. Fans in this country would love to pay £20 to stand on a terrace to watch a top flight game. Terracing is another big factor, every ground over there has a safe standing area. Dortmund have a terraced stand that holds 28,000 and the atmosphere is usually electric. If they made the lower Holte terraced and charged £20 you would get the normal fans come back who have been priced out of it or simply don't want to pay £43.
Can't see the cheap tickets coming over here but hopefully safe standing does.
I know the Football Supporters Federation have been campaigning for it.
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I don't think we would. Not consistently anyway. Once the euphoria of 'cheap' (relatively) tickets died down we'd soon see a drop off in attendances against Blackburn and Bolton et al.
To take us past the 43k+ mark we'd need some success, IMO, but for the medium term we just need to believe again. We need to be galvanised. Randy and MON did it, Bent did it (although it was quickly undone).
At the moment not too much damage has been done, our attendance this season will probably average out at low-mid 30's, which can be improved upon. The worry is another Summer or two of what we've just had and that average will go down even further.
McLeish has had a solid start and has a decent base to build from. The defence is looking better, now is the time to try and win games (especially at home), while we have a bit of a cushion.
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I don't think we would. Not consistently anyway. Once the euphoria of 'cheap' (relatively) tickets died down we'd soon see a drop off in attendances against Blackburn and Bolton et al.
To take us past the 43k+ mark we'd need some success, IMO, but for the medium term we just need to believe again. We need to be galvanised. Randy and MON did it, Bent did it (although it was quickly undone).
At the moment not too much damage has been done, our attendance this season will probably average out at low-mid 30's, which can be improved upon. The worry is another Summer or two of what we've just had and that average will go down even further.
McLeish has had a solid start and has a decent base to build from. The defence is looking better, now is the time to try and win games (especially at home), while we have a bit of a cushion.
It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
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Nope we wouldn’t fill it. Back before the Premiership started, ticket prices were pretty cheap and we still consistently failed to fill the stadium. Yes there were contributing factors to this, but I do not believe that reducing prices at Villa would facilitate a large increase in crowds. Our average gate is traditionally around the 30k mark and we really have to push the boat out on the field to get above that mark. It is my opinion that the board have realised that this floating 10k are simply too expensive to attract on a regular basis.
Any talk of expanding the stadium would simply be folly and you only have to look at Juve to see how a giant of European football has built its stadium based on the realistic attendance numbers.
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Expanding the stadium to 50k would be madness. Try signing some good, big name players and getting into Europe (and taking it seriously) first. You're not going to get 50,000 to watch the likes of Petrov, Heskey and Agbonlahor battle to finish mid table.
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True, but it does seem that all clubs in our position are having similar issues. Spurs, Everton, Stoke and Newcastle are all more functional than attractive.
Man Utd, Arsenal, Man City (based on this season anyway) and then Swansea and Wigan are probably the only clubs promoting the sort of football we all want to see.
I do think it can be exciting without that though. Stoke are a good side to watch when they're at home, and we had a great year of entertainment 2007/08.
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I don't think we would. Not consistently anyway. Once the euphoria of 'cheap' (relatively) tickets died down we'd soon see a drop off in attendances against Blackburn and Bolton et al.
To take us past the 43k+ mark we'd need some success, IMO, but for the medium term we just need to believe again. We need to be galvanised. Randy and MON did it, Bent did it (although it was quickly undone).
At the moment not too much damage has been done, our attendance this season will probably average out at low-mid 30's, which can be improved upon. The worry is another Summer or two of what we've just had and that average will go down even further.
McLeish has had a solid start and has a decent base to build from. The defence is looking better, now is the time to try and win games (especially at home), while we have a bit of a cushion.
It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
If we win every game 1-0 and we're top of the league in April we'll have capacity crowds and are you honestly saying you won't be there on the day we lift the Premier League trophy?
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I don't think we would. Not consistently anyway. Once the euphoria of 'cheap' (relatively) tickets died down we'd soon see a drop off in attendances against Blackburn and Bolton et al.
To take us past the 43k+ mark we'd need some success, IMO, but for the medium term we just need to believe again. We need to be galvanised. Randy and MON did it, Bent did it (although it was quickly undone).
At the moment not too much damage has been done, our attendance this season will probably average out at low-mid 30's, which can be improved upon. The worry is another Summer or two of what we've just had and that average will go down even further.
McLeish has had a solid start and has a decent base to build from. The defence is looking better, now is the time to try and win games (especially at home), while we have a bit of a cushion.
It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
If we win every game 1-0 and we're top of the league in April we'll have capacity crowds and are you honestly saying you won't be there on the day we lift the Premier League trophy?
Thats not going to happen though is it? You know what i meant. Like i said if we'd won that Wolves game 1-0 it wouldn't have encouraged any of the stay-aways to go back because the game itself was dire and the football we played was garbage. I won't go back all season whatever happens, i'm not going to give Lerner another penny and i certainly won't be paying 40 odd quid to watch the shite McLeish plays.
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I don't think we would. Not consistently anyway. Once the euphoria of 'cheap' (relatively) tickets died down we'd soon see a drop off in attendances against Blackburn and Bolton et al.
To take us past the 43k+ mark we'd need some success, IMO, but for the medium term we just need to believe again. We need to be galvanised. Randy and MON did it, Bent did it (although it was quickly undone).
At the moment not too much damage has been done, our attendance this season will probably average out at low-mid 30's, which can be improved upon. The worry is another Summer or two of what we've just had and that average will go down even further.
McLeish has had a solid start and has a decent base to build from. The defence is looking better, now is the time to try and win games (especially at home), while we have a bit of a cushion.
It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
If we win every game 1-0 and we're top of the league in April we'll have capacity crowds and are you honestly saying you won't be there on the day we lift the Premier League trophy?
Thats not going to happen though is it? You know what i meant. Like i said if we'd won that Wolves game 1-0 it wouldn't have encouraged any of the stay-aways to go back because the game itself was dire and the football we played was garbage. I won't go back all season whatever happens, i'm not going to give Lerner another penny and i certainly won't be paying 40 odd quid to watch the shite McLeish plays.
I know exactly what you meant.
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Doesn't matter who owns the villa or who is the manager, maybe we are just very fickle fans.
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It's funny that fans across the country are expected to fork out on average £40 or more most weeks,90% of which will be ultimately disappointed with there teams success,
while managers, players, agents, wags, media all gorge in the never ending and seemingly bottomless football trough,
Yet it's always the fans who are the fickle ones ?
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It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
But you stuck it out under MON didn't you? You are just another whinging tart who didn't get what he wanted and is stropping off in a huff.
I can sympathise with fans who have been priced out, I can sympathise with fans who have found other priorities, what I can't abide is boring, whining numpties who have given up on their club because the owner didn't employ the manager they wanted or splash a load of cash he hasn't really got trying to achieve the impossible by keeping up with the likes of Citeh and Man Utd.
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This coming clash will turn things around a little, I reckon a good crowd for the Newcastle game.
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It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
But you stuck it out under MON didn't you? You are just another whinging tart who didn't get what he wanted and is stropping off in a huff.
I can sympathise with fans who have been priced out, I can sympathise with fans who have found other priorities, what I can't abide is boring, whining numpties who have given up on their club because the owner didn't employ the manager they wanted or splash a load of cash he hasn't really got trying to achieve the impossible by keeping up with the likes of Citeh and Man Utd.
It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
But you stuck it out under MON didn't you? You are just another whinging tart who didn't get what he wanted and is stropping off in a huff.
I can sympathise with fans who have been priced out, I can sympathise with fans who have found other priorities, what I can't abide is boring, whining numpties who have given up on their club because the owner didn't employ the manager they wanted or splash a load of cash he hasn't really got trying to achieve the impossible by keeping up with the likes of Citeh and Man Utd.
if you dont like the new managers style of play i can see why people will stop going,
if you dont like chinese food you dont go to a chinese restaraunt.
personaly, appart from the first half against Everton, its not been as bad as i expected,
certainly no different quality wise as the last few years,
but there is always the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that when push comes to shove, AM as much as i like him as a man will always revert to type, and that type i'm afraid is boring negative football, i know its become a cliche now, but its a cliche which unfortunatly is built on truth
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I think people are entitled to stop going if they dont like the manager's football, that's their own shout, and I imagine there will be more than a few of them.
What does get on my tits is the way it's bandied around like some kind of badge of honour... "I've stopped going" is the new "I'm not renewing:
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The 3 games at home i've waited and paid £15,20,20.So why would you pay £43 to sit in the Witton? Villa are still pretty cheap i reckon.
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This coming clash will turn things around a little, I reckon a good crowd for the Newcastle game.
I think so too. I expect at least 35k inside Villa Park for this.
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It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
But you stuck it out under MON didn't you? You are just another whinging tart who didn't get what he wanted and is stropping off in a huff.
I can sympathise with fans who have been priced out, I can sympathise with fans who have found other priorities, what I can't abide is boring, whining numpties who have given up on their club because the owner didn't employ the manager they wanted or splash a load of cash he hasn't really got trying to achieve the impossible by keeping up with the likes of Citeh and Man Utd.
It's not just about winning games though, it's about the style of play. If he's winning games 1-0 the crowds won't improve, not many people are going to fork out 40 odd quid if they know they won't be entertained. Take the Wolves game for instance, before the game even kicked off most of us knew it would be dire stuff and you're not going to part with your money if you know that. Even if we'd nicked that game 1-0 it wouldn't have got any of the stay away fans back because it was rubbish. MON was the same, we finished 6th three years on the trot but we still didn't sell out regularly because the football on display was crap and wasn't entertaining. I've always said i'd rather we finished 8th and play good football than 6th playing how we did under MON and now McLeish.
But you stuck it out under MON didn't you? You are just another whinging tart who didn't get what he wanted and is stropping off in a huff.
I can sympathise with fans who have been priced out, I can sympathise with fans who have found other priorities, what I can't abide is boring, whining numpties who have given up on their club because the owner didn't employ the manager they wanted or splash a load of cash he hasn't really got trying to achieve the impossible by keeping up with the likes of Citeh and Man Utd.
if you dont like the new managers style of play i can see why people will stop going,
if you dont like chinese food you dont go to a chinese restaraunt.
personaly, appart from the first half against Everton, its not been as bad as i expected,
certainly no different quality wise as the last few years,
but there is always the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that when push comes to shove, AM as much as i like him as a man will always revert to type, and that type i'm afraid is boring negative football, i know its become a cliche now, but its a cliche which unfortunatly is built on truth
Surely if you have a team of talented players who can pass the opposition giddy you play like Arsenal. A team of fast running dribblers with tremendous ability on the ball, like Man U or City. If you have just got promoted on the back of strong physical football, without great technical ability, you play like Stoke and Bolton did, but you evolve by buying better players if you stay up.
Are we not somewhere between the lot at he top and those with more physique but lesser ability? Not necessarily the managers style, more what he has to work with. Both Pulis and Allardice when at Bolton changed their teams styles as they established themselves.
So I think it's a bit unfair to label AM with the style he's deployed with teams of a lesser ability.
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The sooner this Premier League gets real and starts adopting the German League's pricing policy the better.
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The 3 games at home i've waited and paid £15,20,20.So why would you pay £43 to sit in the Witton? Villa are still pretty cheap i reckon.
Indeed, or looked at another way, why pay almost 600 quid for a season ticket?
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The sooner this Premier League gets real and starts adopting the German League's pricing policy the better.
While the money is still rolling in from TV coverage, advertisements etc etc, the only thing the Premier League will be looking at are things like each team playing a league game in the Far East.
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The reason that there is no atmosphere at VP is simple ALEX McLEISH the majority of fans didnt want him and never will want him. Wwhatever people say we all know where he has come from and that is the real reason why we don't want him - simple. For the first time in years fans are no longer chanting the managers name and rightly so he has only come to us for his wages and nothing more.
Villa forever
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The reason that there is no atmosphere at VP is simple ALEX McLEISH the majority of fans didnt want him and never will want him. Wwhatever people say we all know where he has come from and that is the real reason why we don't want him - simple. For the first time in years fans are no longer chanting the managers name and rightly so he has only come to us for his wages and nothing more.
Villa forever
I think i'd rather have McCleish as our manager than fans who think like you.
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What a load of bollocks. There could be many reasons why people stay away but I would hope most right minded individuals have not stopped going to the match because McLeish used to manage that lot.
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It's the same old story the fans are split on McLeish you either accept it or fans LIKE ME who cant stand the bloke as our manager. He will never been accepted by fans LIKE ME (season ticket holder since I was five now I'm 40). The atmosphere is terrible there is no incentive to go albeit after paying nearly £600 for my season ticket.
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The reason that there is no atmosphere at VP is simple ALEX McLEISH the majority of fans didnt want him and never will want him. Wwhatever people say we all know where he has come from and that is the real reason why we don't want him - simple. For the first time in years fans are no longer chanting the managers name and rightly so he has only come to us for his wages and nothing more.
Villa forever
What a crock of shit
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Why then do the fans who are paying to go into the game still create no atmosphere? As soon as we lose a game thats when we can get on the back of AM and show him (vocally) what we think of him
All stand up if you hate McLeish
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"What a crock of shit" I wonder if this fan goes to many games??????
Armchair I wonder???????
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What a load of bollocks. There could be many reasons why people stay away but I would hope most right minded individuals have not stopped going to the match because McLeish used to manage that lot.
Absolutely right. The reasons for the falling attendances are complex. It has nothing to do with the bloody manager and especially who he managed before.
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What a load of bollocks. There could be many reasons why people stay away but I would hope most right minded individuals have not stopped going to the match because McLeish used to manage that lot.
Absolutely right. The reasons for the falling attendances are complex. It has nothing to do with the bloody manager and especially who he managed before.
Agreed
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"What a crock of shit" I wonder if this fan goes to many games??????
Armchair I wonder???????
I think what you've written is a crock of shit as well and i've only missed 1 game since the Man City cup debacle.
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when Mcliesh was muted for the villa job, there was absolute mayhem on here, the likes of that probably has never been seen before.
not many wanted him and warned that there would be a massive problem with crowd attendances. even seasoned posters refused to think it would happen right up untill the bitter end, when he was finally confirmed
when he was got the job, everyone had to revise their position as he was now 'ours' and we still supported the club, so we then had the 'i didnt want him but he's our manager so i will support him' posts, which is much the view i have taken.
but lets not forget what we were saying before AM got the job,
and its much the same as what dazzyg is still saying, but maybe not with a lot of tact or sensitivity
if Randy was concerned about crowd attendances and atmosphere then he appointed the wrong man, and if we all look back at our posts pre AM thats what many if not all of us were saying,
its a bit hypocritical to now say AM not in any way to blame for the low attendances, when we all were warning of that before the appointment.
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You sound like you can't wait for us to lose
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[quote author=dazzyg link=topic=44558.As soon as we lose a game thats when we can get on the back of AM and show him (vocally) what we think of him
All stand up if you hate McLeish
You sound like you can't wait for us to lose
[/quote]
If that is the view of the majority of fans - and I'm pretty sure it's not - then the fans, by creating a toxic atmosphere, will have done more damage to Villa than McLeish ever has* or will.
* even as manager of Birmingham City honk honk!
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As soon as we lose a game thats when we can get on the back of AM and show him (vocally) what we think of him
Ooh, I can't wait.
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ooooooohhhhh looks like a bit of realism has hit a few nerve's on here........ I don't want to us lose but lets be honest 6 points from 12 isn't great when you look at the teams we have played so far. I wonder if the rfans who have replied to my points of view have actually applauded AM during the games? Will they applaud him? He isn't the right man for the job and YES because of where he has come from. tWO RELEGATIONS IN THREE YEARS thats a great manager isn't it?
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You a Bluenose dazzg?
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ooooooohhhhh looks like a bit of realism has hit a few nerve's on here........ I don't want to us lose but lets be honest 6 points from 12 isn't great when you look at the teams we have played so far. I wonder if the rfans who have replied to my points of view have actually applauded AM during the games? Will they applaud him? He isn't the right man for the job and YES because of where he has come from. tWO RELEGATIONS IN THREE YEARS thats a great manager isn't it?
It's so easy to spot a Bluenose.
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ooooooohhhhh looks like a bit of realism has hit a few nerve's on here........ I don't want to us lose but lets be honest 6 points from 12 isn't great when you look at the teams we have played so far. I wonder if the rfans who have replied to my points of view have actually applauded AM during the games? Will they applaud him? He isn't the right man for the job and YES because of where he has come from. tWO RELEGATIONS IN THREE YEARS thats a great manager isn't it?
It's not "realism", it's just your opinion. Do all of your mates agree with you, or is your attitude seen as a tad extreme by them too. Be honest.
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when Mcliesh was muted for the villa job, there was absolute mayhem on here, the likes of that probably has never been seen before.
not many wanted him and warned that there would be a massive problem with crowd attendances. even seasoned posters refused to think it would happen right up untill the bitter end, when he was finally confirmed
when he was got the job, everyone had to revise their position as he was now 'ours' and we still supported the club, so we then had the 'i didnt want him but he's our manager so i will support him' posts, which is much the view i have taken.
but lets not forget what we were saying before AM got the job,
and its much the same as what dazzyg is still saying, but maybe not with a lot of tact or sensitivity
if Randy was concerned about crowd attendances and atmosphere then he appointed the wrong man, and if we all look back at our posts pre AM thats what many if not all of us were saying,
its a bit hypocritical to now say AM not in any way to blame for the low attendances, when we all were warning of that before the appointment.
Spot on in my opinion.
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It's the same old story the fans are split on McLeish you either accept it or fans LIKE ME who cant stand the bloke as our manager. He will never been accepted by fans LIKE ME (season ticket holder since I was five now I'm 40). The atmosphere is terrible there is no incentive to go albeit after paying nearly £600 for my season ticket.
You're right, stay at home and do the rest of us a favour. You're in a very smal minority, most people are fair minded enough to give the bloke a chance.
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And he didn't take them down twice in three seasons.
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It's the same old story the fans are split on McLeish you either accept it or fans LIKE ME who cant stand the bloke as our manager. He will never been accepted by fans LIKE ME (season ticket holder since I was five now I'm 40). The atmosphere is terrible there is no incentive to go albeit after paying nearly £600 for my season ticket.
You're right, stay at home and do the rest of us a favour. You're in a very smal minority, most people are fair minded enough to give the bloke a chance.
I agree it's a minority but he will have no honeymoon period or patience from the fans when we inevitably hit a poor run.
Like most on here, I want him to do well and am prepared to give him a chance but I think the minority will grow quickly and sour the atmosphere at VP when results dip..
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when Mcliesh was muted for the villa job, there was absolute mayhem on here, the likes of that probably has never been seen before.
not many wanted him and warned that there would be a massive problem with crowd attendances. even seasoned posters refused to think it would happen right up untill the bitter end, when he was finally confirmed
when he was got the job, everyone had to revise their position as he was now 'ours' and we still supported the club, so we then had the 'i didnt want him but he's our manager so i will support him' posts, which is much the view i have taken.
but lets not forget what we were saying before AM got the job,
and its much the same as what dazzyg is still saying, but maybe not with a lot of tact or sensitivity
if Randy was concerned about crowd attendances and atmosphere then he appointed the wrong man, and if we all look back at our posts pre AM thats what many if not all of us were saying,
its a bit hypocritical to now say AM not in any way to blame for the low attendances, when we all were warning of that before the appointment.
Spot on in my opinion.
I'd agree with the basics of that, although the last line was a little starkly put.
My first thought when we appointed him was "Crikey, try selling season tickets on the back of AM as manager, selling players and no money to spend", and what has happened thus far is hardly the biggest of surprises.
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Most people do disagree with my opinions as a life long villa fan. I just dont see how fellow villa fans can accept him maybe I have more of a hatred towards the scum down the road than most Villa fans do.
At the end of the day I have put my money where my mouth is and renewed again as I always do surely this entitles me to an opinion? I certainly wont be upset when he leaves which he will do.
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"And he didn't take them down twice in three seasons." come on cheltenhamlion they were relegegated end of 2008 season and last season. Dont get making excuses for him !!!!
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I just dont see how fellow villa fans can accept him maybe I have more of a hatred towards the scum down the road than most Villa fans do.
You're going to chuck away all your years of supporting Villa because he happened to manage Blues? If you're hatred for them is truly that deep that you cannot even accept an ex-employee of the club, god knows how you function in the city on a daily basis when you see Blues fans on the street.
Here is a exhibit A of why a Villa fan can be as small minded as a Bluenose.
Judge the guy on his achievements for gods sake, not his choice of employer.
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Most people do disagree with my opinions as a life long villa fan. I just dont see how fellow villa fans can accept him maybe I have more of a hatred towards the scum down the road than most Villa fans do.
At the end of the day I have put my money where my mouth is and renewed again as I always do surely this entitles me to an opinion? I certainly wont be upset when he leaves which he will do.
I'd imagine that with your obsession with the knuckledraggers you'd be aware to the fact that they hate McLeish. Surely you'd want him to do well if only to piss them off?
My advise would be to judge him on what he does at Villa Park, as let's face it, Mourinho, Wenger and even Ferguson couldn't do anything at a shit hole club like the Rags, so why expect McLeish to have done better?
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Why is it always the idiots who claim to know what the rest of us think?
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I certainly wont be upset when he leaves which he will do.
Can you tell me tonight's lottery numbers while you're at it? Who would have thought, the manager might leave his job at some stage in the future?
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born in Glasgow, supported Rangers, played for Aberdeen, managed Hibs, Rangers, Scotland and them lot for 3 seasons...hardly small heath born and bred is he!
give the guy a chance. we've all go to go through somewhere to get where we really want to be....
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What a load of bollocks. There could be many reasons why people stay away but I would hope most right minded individuals have not stopped going to the match because McLeish used to manage that lot.
Absolutely right. The reasons for the falling attendances are complex. It has nothing to do with the bloody manager and especially who he managed before.
Can't agree Neil, I'm sure there are many and complex reasons for the declining attendances but to say it's nothing to do with apppointing AM is wide of the mark. It's not the only factor, but it's pissed a lot of people off for one reason or another. That includes me but I'm the camp that is willing to give the bloke a chance and hope to be pleasantly surprised. I can't say I have been so far but it's early days.
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My first thought when we appointed him was "Crikey, try selling season tickets on the back of AM as manager, selling players and no money to spend", and what has happened thus far is hardly the biggest of surprises.
No, it's not. I don't think you can blame AM directly for that low attendance, it's more than there has been a succession of events and decisions made in the last 12 months that has perhaps led to a bit of apathy. We're hardly steaming into the season, pushing to break top six, which was always the nailed-on aim at minimum for the past few seasons. Now the signals that we're putting out suggest that middle of the table would suit us fine, and so it's not a surprise that there's perhaps a bit of disenchantment around.
Some decent results and performances could change things quickly. Though I do feel that lower attendances had maybe not been considered by the board when they implemented their newish strategy. Bound to be affected, I'd have thought.
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"What a crock of shit" I wonder if this fan goes to many games??????
Armchair I wonder???????
Season ticket every season between 1972 - 1998. Distance makes midweek games difficult these days
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Most people do disagree with my opinions as a life long villa fan. I just dont see how fellow villa fans can accept him maybe I have more of a hatred towards the scum down the road than most Villa fans do.
At the end of the day I have put my money where my mouth is and renewed again as I always do surely this entitles me to an opinion? I certainly wont be upset when he leaves which he will do.
Did you hate us signing Peter Withe as well?
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Most people do disagree with my opinions as a life long villa fan. I just dont see how fellow villa fans can accept him maybe I have more of a hatred towards the scum down the road than most Villa fans do.
At the end of the day I have put my money where my mouth is and renewed again as I always do surely this entitles me to an opinion? I certainly wont be upset when he leaves which he will do.
Did you hate us signing Peter Withe as well?
OOooh, that's the ace played
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i think the main non-economic reason is that we've seen ambition melt away.
Over the summer we were told we would not be spending, we sold two of our best players, we appointed a man absolutely nobody wanted as our manager (and regardless of how willing you are to give him a chance, and I am in that bunch, the fact is, it was met with disbelief when he got the job), and generally sent out a series of indications we weren't going to try to compete any more.
There's no point whatsoever in crucifying AM, and I am going to give him a chance, but I find it hard to believe that anyone can look at the general apathy around the club and not think that the managerial appointment is part of that.
The vast, vast majority of us couldnt give a flying fuck if he managed Blues, but it looks to me like pointing at the few people who do and banging on about them is a convenient distraction from the general disillusionment which you'lll find around far more of our more sensible fans, and which should be of much more concern to the club.
And there clearly is a problem - look at the attendances and look at the desperate measures the club are taking to try to bolster ticket sales. They spent the summer putting together a series of events which they'd have been hard pushed to better if they'd deliberately set out to alienate and disenchant the support, and now they're in a position where they're throwing out all these ticket deals in a desperate attempt to dig themselves out of the shit.
I honestly can't believe anyone didn't see that coming.
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Agree with that, chimes with my post a bit above.
We're doing okay so far, probably almost exactly as I expected. We're looking nice and solid, we're looking hard to beat (as we are, in fact, unbeatable), but we've played teams that you probably wouldn't expect to hurt us too much. Three draws from four league games, against pretty average opponents. It's steady.
Trouble is, steady doesn't exactly ignite excitement. We've set our stall out to be middle of the road, I'm afraid, and people can always live without middle of the road.
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That's a different argument Paulie. A whole raft of things have left the rank and file feeling apathy. Dazzy is only disenchanted because we have appointed a former Blues manager.
And, Dazzle, its twice in four seasons. The first he joined half way through and they went down. The second they came up at the first attempt, the third they finished ninth and the last one they went down and won a cup.
Not great but not atrocious.
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I can understand some if the arguments but I think this has the potential to be a really interesting season. I came to terms with it being subject to certain limitations but that gives us the opportunity to have a good look at some of the youngsters and see if and how they develop.
I agree that's not the sort of thing likely to bring in the floating fan but it shows that there are other things to appreciate.
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That's a different argument Paulie. A whole raft of things have left the rank and file feeling apathy. Dazzy is only disenchanted because we have appointed a former Blues manager.
And, Dazzle, its twice in four seasons. The first he joined half way through and they went down. The second they came up at the first attempt, the third they finished ninth and the last one they went down and won a cup.
Not great but not atrocious.
Yeah, that's the point, Chelts, focusing on the I 'ATE IM, HE MANAGED THEM brigade detracts from the fact that the managerial appointment is one of a raft of kicks in the bollocks last summer.
incidentally, he joined then in November, not halfway through
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Close enough.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that everything in the garden is smelling of roses.
From the time MON started carping at the supporters, right through to the end of the transfer window just gone, we have been going backwards with one fuck up following another with all the certainty that night follows day.
I have defended the board in the past and much less inclined to do so now. An awful of the flack they are copping they have brought on themselves, no question about it.
Its the whole argument about him managing them that gets on my tits.
I have met and had a beer with senior people at the Villa and, whilst their heart is in the right place, they are wet behind the ears and lack an understanding of the game from what I have heard.
We need good news and fast. Let's hope its a season of cost cutting and taking atock then we go again next summer because we aren't going to attract the missing thousands back unless we are perceived as a team on the up.
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Close enough.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that everything in the garden is smelling of roses.
From the time MON started carping at the supporters, right through to the end of the transfer window just gone, we have been going backwards with one fuck up following another with all the certainty that night follows day.
I have defended the board in the past and much less inclined to do so now. An awful of the flack they are copping they have brought on themselves, no question about it.
Its the whole argument about him managing them that gets on my tits.
I have met and had a beer with senior people at the Villa and, whilst their heart is in the right place, they are wet behind the ears and lack an understanding of the game from what I have heard.
We need good news and fast. Let's hope its a season of cost cutting and taking atock then we go again next summer because we aren't going to attract the missing thousands back unless we are perceived as a team on the up.
There are a few acid tests for this season.
We are in a brief honeymoon period at the moment, having a fairly decent start against teams how are expected to finish around us or in the bottom half. So the first acid test is how fans react to the manager when we play the more renowned teams at Villa Park. We usually get the fair weathers turning up, and they may be more inclined to deride him if we get tonked.
All in all your last sentence sums it up. It's all about potential, we may not be great now, but we could be going places. And here another acid test is if we are able to keep Bent with us into next season. If that happens, the only place will be going at best is sideways.
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What a load of bollocks. There could be many reasons why people stay away but I would hope most right minded individuals have not stopped going to the match because McLeish used to manage that lot.
Absolutely right. The reasons for the falling attendances are complex. It has nothing to do with the bloody manager and especially who he managed before.
Only 30,000 against Wolves and you thing it has nothing to do with McLeish...
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
Probably yes.
Look how many fans wanted Houllier out and we still got 37,000 against Wolves.
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Did wolves sell a couple of thousand tickets short of their allocation last season as well?
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
I don't think it would have been much different.
The same summer of grimness except with a different, yet still underwhelming, managerial appointment would have resulted in pretty much the same thing.
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
Probably yes.
Look how many fans wanted Houllier out and we still got 37,000 against Wolves.
It was a 12.00 kick off on Bank Holiday weekend, was the ypthird home game in a week and live on TV at a time of year when our crowds are traditionally down. There's also the small matter of the recession.
Given all the mitigating circumstances and the general apathy around the club I think to attribute it as being down to McLeish displays a serious lack of understanding.
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When the best Wolves team in thirty years can't sell 2,800 (approx) tickets for a game ten miles away the problem is a lot deeper than prices, kick-off times and our manager.
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
Probably yes.
Look how many fans wanted Houllier out and we still got 37,000 against Wolves.
It was a 12.00 kick off on Bank Holiday weekend, was the ypthird home game in a week and live on TV at a time of year when our crowds are traditionally down. There's also the small matter of the recession.
Given all the mitigating circumstances and the general apathy around the club I think to attribute it as being down to McLeish displays a serious lack of understanding.
So we can expect a big increase in the crowd on Saturday then?
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
Probably yes.
Look how many fans wanted Houllier out and we still got 37,000 against Wolves.
It was a 12.00 kick off on Bank Holiday weekend, was the ypthird home game in a week and live on TV at a time of year when our crowds are traditionally down. There's also the small matter of the recession.
Given all the mitigating circumstances and the general apathy around the club I think to attribute it as being down to McLeish displays a serious lack of understanding.
but put the other way, do you think the appoitment of Mcliesh has added any supporters to the attendance ?
appart from obviously his own family members and friends, who probably dont pay anyway.
i mean do you think anyone has said any words to this effect -
' tell you what i think i'l nip down the Villa on saturday now they have that Mcliesh, i'm looking forward to watching the sort of football he has to offer'
i know thats not answering the question re crowd attendance, but lets face it the appoitment of AM did not help.
its up to Mcliesh now to dispell the doubters, play a few youngsters, give us a bit of entertainment, its in his hands now, i feel he will get support from most people, but some [including me] need a bit of convincing still
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
Probably yes.
Look how many fans wanted Houllier out and we still got 37,000 against Wolves.
It was a 12.00 kick off on Bank Holiday weekend, was the ypthird home game in a week and live on TV at a time of year when our crowds are traditionally down. There's also the small matter of the recession.
Given all the mitigating circumstances and the general apathy around the club I think to attribute it as being down to McLeish displays a serious lack of understanding.
but put the other way, do you think the appoitment of Mcliesh has added any supporters to the attendance ?
appart from obviously his own family members and friends, who probably dont pay anyway.
i mean do you think anyone has said any words to this effect -
' tell you what i think i'l nip down the Villa on saturday now they have that Mcliesh, i'm looking forward to watching the sort of football he has to offer'
i know thats not answering the question re crowd attendance, but lets face it the appoitment of AM did not help.
its up to Mcliesh now to dispell the doubters, play a few youngsters, give us a bit of entertainment, its in his hands now, i feel he will get support from most people, but some [including me] need a bit of convincing still
You've hit the nail on the head john e. It's just not exciting to watch the Villa at the moment and a big chunk of that is due to AM and the person who appointed him. It's completely the opposite effect of what happened when MON was appointed - at that time there was a buzz about the club and the crowds reflected that.
Historically, and for whatever reason, we don't have a lot of diehard fans. Given the population of Birmingham we punch below our weight when it comes to attendances. Man U and Man City both get significantly higher crowds than us despite Manchester having a smaller population - that's down to success (Man U) and potential/excitement (Man C). Newcastle get a much higher proportion of the local population in attendance but that's a cultural thing. Liverpool and Everton have a bigger combined attendance than us and Blues - again that's partly culture and partly past success.
The Villa need to work relatively harder than other clubs to attract fans - like it or not, it's not fashionable to support the Villa, both locally and nationally. Appointing a manager like AM was always going to make that job harder.
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I am fairly certain that had we spent Chelsea or city money on players and were fighting to genuinely win something, the place would be over subscribed. Attendances are apathetic across football beyond certain clubs, and those are either the ones who get massive gates for whatever local reason or due to their side being exciting to watch and ambitious. We had our chance to create an exciting side that captured the imagination and we simply did not do it. There were not genuine star flair signings to go with the solid dependable ones when the money was there. If we had spent differently things may be different now, but they are not.
I think Eck has probably had a negative effect somewhat, BUT, if he does get us playing I reckon the crowds would very much be back and more, as there would be nothing more fun than a bloke who walked on Blues getting Villa to play really well.
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I couldn't give a toss that he managed Blues, if he'd done an amazing job at Blues and we'd stole him i'd have loved it. I don't like him because he's a shit manager who plays shit football and he got them relegated twice in three years.
McLeish isn't the only factor for the attendances, but he is definitely a factor. As soon as he was appointed hundreds if not thousands of fans said they wouldn't attend, everyone i know refused to renew once we appointed him. The other factors are: the entertainment value is pretty much nil most games. Theres zero atmosphere (watched the Wolves game on tv and you could hear a pin drop). Knowing almost certainly before the game even starts that it will be shit and we'll play poor football (the Wolves game again, most people said before the game it would be a bore draw with poor football). The prices; nobody in their right mind is going to pay £43 to watch two crap teams like Villa v Wolves, and having the cheapest tickets at £25 is a joke (if we had a good manager and good players £43 would just about be a bit more reasonable, but £43 to watch the likes of Heskey, Petrov and Agbonlahor under McLeish? No ta).
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"Did you hate us signing Peter Withe as well" we didn't sign him from Small Heath. If your going to put statements like that on here at least get the facts correct !!!
Villa Forever
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"Did you hate us signing Peter Withe as well" we didn't sign him from Small Heath. If your going to put statements like that on here at least get the facts correct !!!
Villa Forever
You are displaying your ignorance. He was an ex nose and when we signed him your equivalents were making just the same sort of fuss. How stupid they looked a couple of years later.
By the way, where do you sit?
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Be interesting to see what gate we get on Saturday.
I'm going 32k as the barcodes do have decent away support.
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"Did you hate us signing Peter Withe as well" we didn't sign him from Small Heath. If your going to put statements like that on here at least get the facts correct !!!
Villa Forever
Do you hate Ron Saunders?
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I hate small heath as a football club. It's part of my identity, everyone who knows me well knows this. That being established I find this silly attitude to former employees of theirs embarassing and small minded. McLeish worked for them for a couple or three years. He's not a nose and far from most people being opposed to him, I think the vast majority are happy to give him a fair go. If you cant do that then maybe you should move on?
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--- Quote from: dazzyg on Today at 08:42:32 AM ---"Did you hate us signing Peter Withe as well" we didn't sign him from Small Heath. If your going to put statements like that on here at least get the facts correct !!!
He didn't make a statement, he asked you a question.
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"Did you hate us signing Peter Withe as well" we didn't sign him from Small Heath. If your going to put statements like that on here at least get the facts correct !!!
Villa Forever
What do you think of Ron Saunders, Dennis Mortimer and Des Bremner?
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Just looked at the available tickets left for Saturday on the OS. Looks like another small crowd. Not suprising really, when some bright spark thought this was worthy of a Category A fixture.
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Received an email earlier offering 2 tickets for £40 (economy areas only).
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Just looked at the available tickets left for Saturday on the OS. Looks like another small crowd. Not suprising really, when some bright spark thought this was worthy of a Category A fixture.
Newcastle? Category A? Might have been in 1996.
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Was Wolves Category A as well?
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Yes it was.
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Maybe it's to replace the loss of the derby with Blose as a Category A game.
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
Probably yes.
Look how many fans wanted Houllier out and we still got 37,000 against Wolves.
How many of those bought season tickets when O'Neill was in charge and everything in the garden was looking rosy?
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Newcastle? Category A? Mental. There would be loads of empty seats at £38 a ticket never mind £43. Nobody in their right mind is going to pay £43 (apart from their fat fans) to watch two average teams, both of whom are shit going forward and especially with the garbage football we've played this season. Mind you i wouldn't go if they paid me this season so it wouldn't make much difference to me.
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Newcastle? Category A? Mental. There would be loads of empty seats at £38 a ticket never mind £43. Nobody in their right mind is going to pay £43 (apart from their fat fans) to watch two average teams, both of whom are shit going forward and especially with the garbage football we've played this season. Mind you i wouldn't go if they paid me this season so it wouldn't make much difference to me.
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I despair at our ticket prices this season. £43 to watch us play Wolves and Newcastle. No wonder the gates have plummeted.
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I despair at our ticket prices this season. £43 to watch us play Wolves and Newcastle. No wonder the gates have plummeted.
It wouldn't be quite as bad if we had a good manager, good players and played good football but we've got McLeish, players like Heskey and Petrov and we play dire football. You know before the game starts, like the Wolves game, that it's going to be rubbish so why the feck would you pay £43 to watch it?! You wouldn't pay 40 quid for a gig if you knew the band were going to be boring and crap beforehand.
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I despair at our ticket prices this season. £43 to watch us play Wolves and Newcastle. No wonder the gates have plummeted.
It wouldn't be quite as bad if we had a good manager, good players and played good football but we've got McLeish, players like Heskey and Petrov and we play dire football. You know before the game starts, like the Wolves game, that it's going to be rubbish so why the feck would you pay £43 to watch it?! You wouldn't pay 40 quid for a gig if you knew the band were going to be boring and crap beforehand.
You support the team through thick and thin, that's what being a fan is all about. The ticket prices would be the only thing that would put me off though. It was a sad sad day for Aston Villa FC when are prices reached £40+. We're being priced out of the game and it juat isn't acceptable.
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We used to charge away fans and our own fans about 33-35 quid just a few years ago, how can we justify a £8-£10 price increase in the space of a few years? We haven't done or won anything to justify it, our manager is crap and the standard of our squad and team is still very average.
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Do you think it was down to McLeish that there were a couple of thousand empty seats in the Wolves end?
If, for example, we's appointed Martinez instead do you think the crowd would have been significantly higher?
Probably yes.
Look how many fans wanted Houllier out and we still got 37,000 against Wolves.
How many of those bought season tickets when O'Neill was in charge and everything in the garden was looking rosy?
I dunno but I think it's pretty poor how we've only sold 20,000 season tickets this season.
Even Norwich have sold more season tickets than us :-\
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Just come back from the pub. Had a few jars with a baggies mate who lives in Handsworth Wood. Told me that he's had a leaflet through his door offering him a ticket for the Newcastle game for £10. It was to be expected, but the bastard threw it in his bin. When I asked if he could fish it out he said no, the binmen have been. Some bloody mate.
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Just come back from the pub. Had a few jars with a baggies mate who lives in Handsworth Wood. Told me that he's had a leaflet through his door offering him a ticket for the Newcastle game for £10. It was to be expected, but the bastard threw it in his bin. When I asked if he could fish it out he said no, the binmen have been. Some bloody mate.
I got that leaflet and took up the offer :D
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Just come back from the pub. Had a few jars with a baggies mate who lives in Handsworth Wood. Told me that he's had a leaflet through his door offering him a ticket for the Newcastle game for £10. It was to be expected, but the bastard threw it in his bin. When I asked if he could fish it out he said no, the binmen have been. Some bloody mate.
I got that leaflet and took up the offer :D
Fair play, I can't think of many people who would go through an Albion fans dustbin to find a leaflet.
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Just come back from the pub. Had a few jars with a baggies mate who lives in Handsworth Wood. Told me that he's had a leaflet through his door offering him a ticket for the Newcastle game for £10. It was to be expected, but the bastard threw it in his bin. When I asked if he could fish it out he said no, the binmen have been. Some bloody mate.
I got that leaflet and took up the offer :D
;)
Fair play, I can't think of many people who would go through an Albion fans dustbin to find a leaflet.
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I've had a Baggies mate claiming Villa are no longer a big club based on attendance and spending, we are on level with the likes of Stoke and our attendences are lower because of the drifting football supporting fans now have other Premier League teams to watch in the Midlands...oh yeah, and apparently Villa fans dont know the first thing about football (this was a quote from some pundit on WM or Talkshite). You know what they say about trying to win an argument with idiots.
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I've had a Baggies mate claiming Villa are no longer a big club based on attendance and spending, we are on level with the likes of Stoke and our attendences are lower because of the drifting football supporting fans now have other Premier League teams to watch in the Midlands...oh yeah, and apparently Villa fans dont know the first thing about football (this was a quote from some pundit on WM or Talkshite). You know what they say about trying to win an argument with idiots.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
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Sorry black country villa I don't think you're repeating yourself enough. Are you saying Mcleish is responsible for the poor crowds so far this season?
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I've had a Baggies mate claiming Villa are no longer a big club based on attendance and spending, we are on level with the likes of Stoke and our attendences are lower because of the drifting football supporting fans now have other Premier League teams to watch in the Midlands...oh yeah, and apparently Villa fans dont know the first thing about football (this was a quote from some pundit on WM or Talkshite). You know what they say about trying to win an argument with idiots.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
Isn't there something of a contradiction between you in one breath saying you're not going to go down and support your club all season because you don't like the manager, and then going on about what shit fans Albion are (or indeed what a shit fan anybody is, for that matter)?
Pot, kettle.
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Isn't there something of a contradiction between you in one breath saying you're not going to go down and support your club all season because you don't like the manager, and then going on about what shit fans Albion are (or indeed what a shit fan anybody is, for that matter)?
Pot, kettle.
Bang on Paulie. Everyone's entitled to stop going down the match, but if you do, you then have no right to start taking the piss out of any other set of fans, blues included.
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I've had a Baggies mate claiming Villa are no longer a big club based on attendance and spending, we are on level with the likes of Stoke and our attendences are lower because of the drifting football supporting fans now have other Premier League teams to watch in the Midlands...oh yeah, and apparently Villa fans dont know the first thing about football (this was a quote from some pundit on WM or Talkshite). You know what they say about trying to win an argument with idiots.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
Isn't there something of a contradiction between you in one breath saying you're not going to go down and support your club all season because you don't like the manager, and then going on about what shit fans Albion are (or indeed what a shit fan anybody is, for that matter)?
Pot, kettle.
Tbf, all he said he is that Albion fans can't really talk about our attendances when they get smaller crowds than we do...
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I've had a Baggies mate claiming Villa are no longer a big club based on attendance and spending, we are on level with the likes of Stoke and our attendences are lower because of the drifting football supporting fans now have other Premier League teams to watch in the Midlands...oh yeah, and apparently Villa fans dont know the first thing about football (this was a quote from some pundit on WM or Talkshite). You know what they say about trying to win an argument with idiots.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
As soon as Lerner appointed McLeish thousands of our fans said they wouldn't attend this season, you've got to say they've backed up their statement (i'm one of them and won't go all season). Then when he slashed the wage bill and failed to replace our best players even more fans said they wouldn't attend. The crowds are just reflecting what our fans warned Lerner about. I predict another low crowd on saturday even though Newcastle will fill their end, 43 quid you're having a larf.
As for Olbiyun, dear me. They had thousands of empty seats against Stoke despite their ground holding just 27,000 and our lowest crowd this season will still be bigger than their highest. We may not be big any more but we'll always be bigger than that lot.
Isn't there something of a contradiction between you in one breath saying you're not going to go down and support your club all season because you don't like the manager, and then going on about what shit fans Albion are (or indeed what a shit fan anybody is, for that matter)?
Pot, kettle.
Tbf, all he said he is that Albion fans can't really talk about our attendances when they get smaller crowds than we do...
And to be fair, he can't really talk about Albion's crowds when he doesn't bother himself as he doesn't like the manager.
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Sorry black country villa I don't think you're repeating yourself enough. Are you saying Mcleish is responsible for the poor crowds so far this season?
Very good. Well it made me laugh.
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I dunno but I think it's pretty poor how we've only sold 20,000 season tickets this season.
Even Norwich have sold more season tickets than us :-\
We've never had massive season ticket sales.
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I dunno but I think it's pretty poor how we've only sold 20,000 season tickets this season.
Even Norwich have sold more season tickets than us :-\
We've never had massive season ticket sales.
Really?
I think we had about 27,000 when we got to Wembley.
I always thought we should aim for 30,000...
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I dunno but I think it's pretty poor how we've only sold 20,000 season tickets this season.
Even Norwich have sold more season tickets than us :-\
We've never had massive season ticket sales.
Really?
I think we had about 27,000 when we got to Wembley.
I always thought we should aim for 30,000...
26-27k has been our maximum. We've never never had more than that because you can always get a ticket.
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There's never been a culture of buying season tickets at Villa.
The season we won the league we only sold 3,500 season tickets.
For me it's a crap idea anyway, how many people seriously want to go to every match?
Most people who buy season tickets end up going out of obligation to get their vfm.
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There is bugger all value for money in that Viagogo shit.
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There is bugger all value for money in that Viagogo shit.
What are Viagogo doing? Are they allowing people to sell tickets, or is it just an exchange? If it is to sell tickets, it will mean a lot more Manure fans up our end.
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There's never been a culture of buying season tickets at Villa.
The season we won the league we only sold 3,500 season tickets.
For me it's a crap idea anyway, how many people seriously want to go to every match?
Most people who buy season tickets end up going out of obligation to get their vfm.
Nah, they (we) wouldn't keep buying them year on year if that was the case.
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Lower attendances and supporter boycotts are slowly spreading around the country it seems:
CHELSEA AND SHEFFIELD UNITED BOYCOTTS (http://www.fsf.org.uk/news/Ticket-trouble-at-the-Bridge-and-Bramall-Lane.php?id=)
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There's never been a culture of buying season tickets at Villa.
The season we won the league we only sold 3,500 season tickets.
For me it's a crap idea anyway, how many people seriously want to go to every match?
Most people who buy season tickets end up going out of obligation to get their vfm.
Nah, they (we) wouldn't keep buying them year on year if that was the case.
Fair enough, but the vast majority of Villa supporters don't have a season ticket.
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Ewood Park looks far from capacity today. I'd say our drop is in line with what I have seen any time I have watched a live game this season.
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Todays crowd about 2,800 down on last season against Newcastle. That includes empty seats in the Newcastle section which doesnt usually happen.
I think its mainly down to people just not having the money. Maybe football might start to wake up to the fact that a lot of people simply cant afford their prices any more.
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Todays crowd about 2,800 down on last season against Newcastle. That includes empty seats in the Newcastle section which doesnt usually happen.
I think its mainly down to people just not having the money. Maybe football might start to wake up to the fact that a lot of people simply cant afford their prices any more.
Quite right. Haven't got the money, other priorities (taking daughter to Uni open days for example which is expensive in itself), crap product, refuse to put money in the pockets of over rated thickos for the most part. Simple decision for me I'm afraid
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Todays crowd about 2,800 down on last season against Newcastle. That includes empty seats in the Newcastle section which doesnt usually happen.
I think its mainly down to people just not having the money. Maybe football might start to wake up to the fact that a lot of people simply cant afford their prices any more.
I think the shit manager, tactics and football are a lot to do with it. Who in their right mind would pay £35 to watch that let alone the dearest tickets of £43?
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Lower attendances and supporter boycotts are slowly spreading around the country it seems:
CHELSEA AND SHEFFIELD UNITED BOYCOTTS (http://www.fsf.org.uk/news/Ticket-trouble-at-the-Bridge-and-Bramall-Lane.php?id=)
Interesting articles, thank you, bit rich to see a Chelsea fan saying that high prices are killing the game...
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For some it is reduction of disposable income and some is other option to spend money ie dancing, traveling. Football is becoming less fun for me we doesn't have enough exciting games and players and Manchester City and Chelsea had destroyed the game with their wealth. I would like football to go back to mid 90s as it is much better then. I don't think the footballers are good these days. Outside G14 (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, Manure, and co) and Man City there is not enough quality on other teams.
Football need to be entertaining and full of thrill to make us wanting more and more and more. It need more highs as there is not enough of this.
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I gave up my season ticket as far back as 1998 due mainly to seeing wasters like Collymore picking up 20k a week and contributing nothing 90% of the time.
Like many others now I am a casual attendee of 7-8 games per season (and always purchase H&V as a ritual). Last season with the appointment of Houllier I went to 2 games (1 of them away) and the other because my Southend supporting mate had never seen Villa Park and luckily coincided with Bent's debut v Cit-eh.
I knew it would be dire under Houllier - just didn;t know it would be that rubbish as well. This year it will be dire but not as rubbish. I don't mind that the club cuts its' club accordingly in terms of signings and wages, I am a realist. What I mind is the fact we have a manager who has a very negative approach to football and we maybe could have tried harder to get Martinez or made a progressive appointment like Poyet. I think results overall would be similar but the entertainment would be far better.
I can't go to some games due to work/travel committments and I dare say this season will find other things to do instead. Like I did today. Ticket + Transport + odds and sods from club shop = £75/£80 to see that dross. No thanks - listened to it on 5live for free.
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I gave up my season ticket as far back as 1998 due mainly to seeing wasters like Collymore picking up 20k a week and contributing nothing 90% of the time.
Like many others now I am a casual attendee of 7-8 games per season (and always purchase H&V as a ritual). Last season with the appointment of Houllier I went to 2 games (1 of them away) and the other because my Southend supporting mate had never seen Villa Park and luckily coincided with Bent's debut v Cit-eh.
I knew it would be dire under Houllier - just didn;t know it would be that rubbish as well. This year it will be dire but not as rubbish. I don't mind that the club cuts its' club accordingly in terms of signings and wages, I am a realist. What I mind is the fact we have a manager who has a very negative approach to football and we maybe could have tried harder to get Martinez or made a progressive appointment like Poyet. I think results overall would be similar but the entertainment would be far better.
I can't go to some games due to work/travel committments and I dare say this season will find other things to do instead. Like I did today. Ticket + Transport + odds and sods from club shop = £75/£80 to see that dross. No thanks - listened to it on 5live for free.
Just out of interest what did you do instead and how much did it cost. Also claiming it would cost you £75-£80 to go see the match from Nottingham is a bit over the top. I have just got back home from the match (Sheffield) and it didn't cost me that much. Also you don't know that the match was dross do you as you weren't there.
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Its not supprising to see empty seats at VP when you consider the state of the economy and people worried about jobs etc
I`ve been down today with my lad which cost £62 and was stupid enough then to pay £3.50 for a can of John Smths
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On the positive side, we had the largest attendance today i believe...
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I gave up my season ticket as far back as 1998 due mainly to seeing wasters like Collymore picking up 20k a week and contributing nothing 90% of the time.
Like many others now I am a casual attendee of 7-8 games per season (and always purchase H&V as a ritual). Last season with the appointment of Houllier I went to 2 games (1 of them away) and the other because my Southend supporting mate had never seen Villa Park and luckily coincided with Bent's debut v Cit-eh.
I knew it would be dire under Houllier - just didn;t know it would be that rubbish as well. This year it will be dire but not as rubbish. I don't mind that the club cuts its' club accordingly in terms of signings and wages, I am a realist. What I mind is the fact we have a manager who has a very negative approach to football and we maybe could have tried harder to get Martinez or made a progressive appointment like Poyet. I think results overall would be similar but the entertainment would be far better.
I can't go to some games due to work/travel committments and I dare say this season will find other things to do instead. Like I did today. Ticket + Transport + odds and sods from club shop = £75/£80 to see that dross. No thanks - listened to it on 5live for free.
Just out of interest what did you do instead and how much did it cost. Also claiming it would cost you £75-£80 to go see the match from Nottingham is a bit over the top. I have just got back home from the match (Sheffield) and it didn't cost me that much. Also you don't know that the match was dross do you as you weren't there.
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No I didn't know for sure before the match that it would be dross but have seen some of our matches on the dodgy streams this season and it hasn't been very inspiring considering the opposition.
Don't worry I'm not calling for McLeish to be sacked - he got the job because we couldn't attract anyone better and if I was in his shoes the choice between managing us or That Lot is a no-brainer even for the Noses.
Instead - I went for a long run (one of my other interests) so cost, whilst listening to the Villa match on 5live on pocket radio, was depreciation of 2 small batteries and oft used running gear. Less than a pound I reckon. Sounded like an ok match though they seemed to have more of it.
Granted I wouldn't have to spend that much but still would have put a dent in £50.
£80 - normally like to sit in Witton Lane near to my mate (and his family) who is a season ticket holder (one of the few I still know) to chat before game, at half time and aftter +Petrol/Parking or train and a few items from club shop to send to friends in NZ for their kids. I will do it at least once this season. It was the type of game under O'Neill I would have gone to when I genuinely had a free Saturday afternoon.
Respect to you though for round trip.
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Well after watching another bore draw this time with an increase of 2,000 fans against Newcastle who themselves usually bring many more fans.
I am still not convinced that the low attendance for villa fans is because of AM.
We are playing just as small heath played last year you can sense the atmosphere (or lack of it in the ground) I sit Trinity Road Middle and the feeling from the other stands is that no one really wants Am there am I right ?
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It’s interesting listening to the match through the telly to gauge what it is like. What struck me was the apparent total lack of atmosphere in the stadium. Apart from one tedious round of the pathetic ‘Mcgrath tune’ the place was just flat. Even the usually animated Newcastle fans only really came to life a little once the goal came in. The whole place stunk of an end of season, nothing to play for affair. It seemed that every time the camera focused on the crowd, it was met with a seemingly bored looking Villa fan staring out onto the field of play.
Based on Saturday’s game, which I normally see as one of the liveliest and certainly loudest among our fixtures, I fear that Villa Park could see some very quiet games in the weeks to come, not only in terms of attendance but indeed atmosphere.
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Meanwhile elsewhere....
Everton got a thousand less than us and Wolves despite their good start are still in the low 20ks. It's not just Villa.
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Meanwhile elsewhere....
Everton got a thousand less than us and Wolves despite their good start are still in the low 20ks. It's not just Villa.
Undoubtedly. Could it be that the fans are finally starting to vote with their feet?
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Meanwhile elsewhere....
Everton got a thousand less than us and Wolves despite their good start are still in the low 20ks. It's not just Villa.
The capacity at Wolves is only about 27K at the moment isn't it?
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Yes, and they can't sell even that many.
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Could it be that the fans are finally starting to vote with their feet?
Maybe. According to these stats the average EPL attendances for 2010-11 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance/_/league/eng.1/year/2010/barclays-premier-league?cc=5739) were 35283 (Villa 37193), whereas averages for 2011-12 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance/_/league/eng.1/barclays-premier-league?cc=5739) so far are 33779 (Villa 32447). Early days obviously and general attendances are slightly lower but Villa's are significantly down.
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To me there are a combination of factors as to why the crowds are down now.
First of all its the appointment of Mcleish, nothing to do with him previously managing the knuckledraggers - its a mark of our current strategy in the Prem. A period of financial constraint, introducing the youth and getting rid of the expensive dross that MON accumulated over 4 years instead of gambling even more sums on chasing that champions league dream. Higher calibre managers were interviewed but werent prepared to work under this - kudos to Mcleish for coming. However... He has a brand of football (seen down the road) that is solid, difficult to break down but as about exciting as a used tea bag.
Football now is a premium priced event. And as such we should be "entertained" accordingly. I didnt go to the match on Saturday - £60 for me and my 2 sons in total, plus progammes, food etc. and I live locally! From what I gathered on the multiple football websites, the newspapers, forums, MOTD, we didnt play that badly, there was a poor atmosphere (from a friend who went to the match) and we were lucky to get a 1-1.
I cant justify the outlay for what I am paying to participate in for the moment.
Other factors include because Chelski, Manure and Man City can now pay past £30m for a player means they will have a monopoly of the top 3 places. We are playing in the Premiership knowing we will never win it. The joy of playing for local pride? Less than 30,000 watched us battle to a stalemate against Wolves.
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Meanwhile elsewhere....
Everton got a thousand less than us and Wolves despite their good start are still in the low 20ks. It's not just Villa.
Everton were playing Wigan, and Wolves were playing QPR, both of whom traditionally bring a taxi-full, and we were playing Newcastle, who bring far more.
it's not just Villa, no, but it is particularly bad for us.
Also, isn't the capacity at Wolves currently 24,000
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Meanwhile elsewhere....
Everton got a thousand less than us and Wolves despite their good start are still in the low 20ks. It's not just Villa.
Everton were playing Wigan, and Wolves were playing QPR, both of whom traditionally bring a taxi-full, and we were playing Newcastle, who bring far more.
it's not just Villa, no, but it is particularly bad for us.
Also, isn't the capacity at Wolves currently 24,000
There would have still been more Villa supporters in the ground than Everton, and Molineux currently holds 27,828.
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Meanwhile elsewhere....
Everton got a thousand less than us and Wolves despite their good start are still in the low 20ks. It's not just Villa.
Undoubtedly. Could it be that the fans are finally starting to vote with their feet?
Whatever you say about MON, one thing kept bringing people through the gates, the same thing that makes people attend football all over the world. For the majority of the Premier League this vital comodity has been overlooked in the chase for more subscriptions and higher veiwing figures. In fact there is more of it in the park on Sunday morning than in our top flight and it is the oxygen on which supporting a team exists.
Hope.
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QPR seemed to fill their section from looking at the TV pictures.
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I agree with a lot of what Remy says, I'm still going to the games and take my 2 lads but I do it via season tickets so it feels 'cheap' when the pain of the intial outlay dies down.
In addition to what Reny says I think owners of footy clubs have just lost touch with their fan base. The big sides with the promise of success can still charge what they like but clubs like ours can't. It is just too much money for the average family to sacrifice out of their budget twice a month.
I also thought that the Acorns appeal on Saturday was badly timed: I love Macca and I love the charity but £3 is a lot of money to donate by phone. Acorns profile is high amongst Villa fans and a chunk of people seem to donate something every game to the collectors, perhaps the club should ease off a bit. Charitable donations in my opinion are such a personal thing and most people will give some of their disposable income when they have it and don't like to be told or put under pressure when they're skint.
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Only Man Utd, Man City and the three promoted teams really seem bothered this season. I suppose Spurs fans will now they've kept Modric, got Adebayor and are winning again. Every other set of fans seem very 'meh' about this season, we all know we won't win the thing, we know we won't finish top six, all we can hope for is to stay up, play a bit of decent football (no chance of that for us with ginger bollocks) and grab a few shock results against the big boys along the way. Most team's crowds are down and even our away support is on the slide, 1800 to Everton, 1600 to QPR and 1700 for Man City, they're the kind of numbers i'd expect a team like Albion to take away.
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Everton away was a ticket allocation issue, our ticket office didn't ask for enough as usual. It was quite a 'hot' ticket in the end to get I gather
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Same as QPR. It costs a lot of money if you take up the second allocation and don't sell out.
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Same as QPR. It costs a lot of money if you take up the second allocation and don't sell out.
Didn't we only request 1000 for OT last season?
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But if we'd appointed a good manager, replaced our best players or even if McLeish had us playing decent football we would have taken 3000 to Everton and 3000 to QPR. But the fact is not many people want to watch us, or football in general at the moment because the 'product' and entertainment value isn't representative of how much it costs. If i'd been daft enough to pay £43 for that tripe against Newcastle i'd have slit my wrists.
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Only Man Utd, Man City and the three promoted teams really seem bothered this season. I suppose Spurs fans will now they've kept Modric, got Adebayor and are winning again. Every other set of fans seem very 'meh' about this season, we all know we won't win the thing, we know we won't finish top six, all we can hope for is to stay up, play a bit of decent football (no chance of that for us with ginger bollocks) and grab a few shock results against the big boys along the way. Most team's crowds are down and even our away support is on the slide, 1800 to Everton, 1600 to QPR and 1700 for Man City, they're the kind of numbers i'd expect a team like Albion to take away.
There you go again - your points might be taken a bit more seriousness if it weren't for the fact you're whingeing about our support, having made clear you yourself are not going to go at all this season because you don't like the manager.
Maybe the reason we're taking support the likes of Albion do is because we've got supporters like Albion, prime amongst them, you?
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To help support for Wigan game season ticket holders can take 4 friends for £5 each . I have critised the club on pricing but think this may help the gate so well done Nicky Keys who told me she does read this site!
But personally I suggest drop prices across the board say 15% including season tickets and attendance may rise to compensate.
The match day revenue that way stays flat, but atmosphere improves and add on sales of shirts, beer etc increases and leads to higher footfall.
But it aint going to happen is it!
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As others have pointed out, we are far from being the only club whose attendances are lower this year. In the scheme of things, considering that we have sold two of our best players, the country is in a financial mess and we have Alex McLeish as manger, I don't think our attendances are too bad at all.
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Going to a prem match should in my view cost £20-£25
Unlike a pop/rock concert or a annual sporting event like Wimbledon or the grand prix, it's every week for some folk, and every other week for a lot, and a regular occurrence for loads,
If The rolling stones were playing at VP they would probably sell out with people paying a lot of money, if they played at VP every other week or more, they'd get No one,
The cinema is a good comparison, you can go there often, even buy a season ticket and the entertainment lasts about the same time, it's £10
Football is overpriced, and the only reason is because the clubs are paying players to much money,
If there is so much money floating around in football these days, how come most clubs are up to their knecks in debt
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I meant necks
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Most team's crowds are down and even our away support is on the slide, 1800 to Everton, 1600 to QPR and 1700 for Man City, they're the kind of numbers i'd expect a team like Albion to take away.
QPRs ground only holds 18,300 so 1,600 of that is quite a good percentage - I be surprised if they'd let us have any more than that
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Most team's crowds are down and even our away support is on the slide, 1800 to Everton, 1600 to QPR and 1700 for Man City, they're the kind of numbers i'd expect a team like Albion to take away.
QPRs ground only holds 18,300 so 1,600 of that is quite a good percentage - I be surprised if they'd let us have any more than that
They have allocated us more, we have chosen not to take them. There is a difference.
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Watching Soccer Special on Sky, all the grounds look empty tonight. It looks like there's about 12 people at Molineux.
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Lose sunday and the attendance next week against Wigan will be interesting, 25-26k.
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To help support for Wigan game season ticket holders can take 4 friends for £5 each . I have critised the club on pricing but think this may help the gate so well done Nicky Keys who told me she does read this site!
But personally I suggest drop prices across the board say 15% including season tickets and attendance may rise to compensate.
The match day revenue that way stays flat, but atmosphere improves and add on sales of shirts, beer etc increases and leads to higher footfall.
But it aint going to happen is it!
I think the club have to be careful with all this reduced priced tickets.
Quite a few people have said to me that there was no point in buying a season ticket because it would have been cheaper to just take advantage of the reduced priced offers.
I'm all for trying to get more bums on seats but simply reducing the price wont fill the stadium [22,000 last night!]
What these reductions may achieve is a reduced number of season ticket holders next season who think sod it why bother, I can pick and choose and get a better deal by not having one [and getting tickets is not a problem at VP]
Villa need to look at the loyal paying fan base and dont ignore them, or they may find them not so loyal next season
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Maybe we should try this...Women and children first (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14998237.stm)
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30k again today was it - what is today's excuse - everyone down at the beach for one last time this 'summer'. This is a serious situation for the owners I would suggest. I think there was a deal for season ticket holders as well today wasn't there?
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Despite the very heavy promotion up to 4 tickets at £5 each we just managed 30k. I agree this is serious as I am sure we have budgetted at about 35k. So if these gates persist for the rest of the season we will face having to cut cost and very little transfer in action during closed season.
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Hi not fishing for grief just information. I was there. Why were you not at the game today?
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I wasn't because I live in a different country and can only afford 1 trip over a season. That was for the Newcastle game. Only 50 weeks to go for my next game.
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I went but it's one of about 5 or 6 games I'll be able to get to. It'd be ace to go more often but not everybody can (work / money / kids / etc). The lower attendances are down to a bitch of a recession and, in my opinion at least, that fans are waking up to the closed shop that is the champions league.
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Hi not fishing for grief just information. I was there. Why were you not at the game today?
I was at work. I work every Saturday. I booked the 19th of November off to go to the Spurs game down at WHL but Sky changed the fucking K/O time to the following Monday evening. I won't get another chance to go to a match until after Christmas now :(
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I would go every week if I could, but I'm only 16 and my dad can barely cough up the dough to go anymore due to the recession etc.
I'm going to the West Brom game with some mates, and I've been to the Blackburn home game and Walsall away pre-season, but my main problem is that I work most weekends, so I find myself working to buy tickets to games I can't go to due to work.
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You think 30k's bad?
Don't we play QPR at home on a weeknight in the winter? If we haven't gone sub-30k by then, that'll certainly do it.
The hard core will go whatever but the only reason we've been getting gates closer to 40k over the past few years has been the occasional fans coming along. They're there because they want to be entertained and find it exciting. There's very little about the place to get those sort of people excited at the moment.
Add that to the current pricing structure of the Premier League as a whole, the lack of competitiveness over who will/could win the league and it's not exactly one for the neutral.
It's happened in other sports - F1 nearly died on its arse when Schumacher was dominating. Prices were spiralling and everyone knew who would win the title before the first race began. The organisers of F1 had to make some drastic changes to bring the fans back and the way football's currently going the Premier League will find themselves in a very similar situation at some point.
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Seen my mate today he told me my other mate hasn't renewed this year first time in 30 years..I was shocked.
He's had his hours extended at work he wasn't sure at one point but he said mcleish being appointed made up his mind
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I wasn't because I live in a different country and can only afford 1 trip over a season. That was for the Newcastle game. Only 50 weeks to go for my next game.
Pretty much this.
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The economic situation, the lack of competitiveness in the league and the usual things are factors, for sure.
Primarily, I'd still say it's the McLeish factor, more than anything else though.
Which is an odd thing to say about a manager who currently has us in 6th place.
I think he's a good bloke too, a straight shooter. Not a blagger or a bullshitter. Was very impressed with our play in the second half v QPR and for large chunks of the game today. Was also impressed with what he said after both matches.
But
The vast majority of supporters did not want him, there is no escaping that. Whether it was the B-lose connection, his recent record vis a vis relegations or the reputation for dour football (probably a mix of all three).
What we are seeing now is fans voting with their feet.
You don't listen to us? OK - we won't go.
I agree that it would be weak management to pander to the fans on every little thing- and in picking the best candidate, you'd rarely get a consensus of opinion from the support base anyroad. Ancelotti apart (and that never really had legs, lets be honest) the polls here during the summer illustrated that point.
But what united most was McLeish was the one candidate they definitely didn't want.
The club didn't listen - this is the consequence.
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The economic situation, the lack of competitiveness in the league and the usual things are factors, for sure.
Primarily, I'd still say it's the McLeish factor, more than anything else though.
Which is an odd thing to say about a manager who currently has us in 6th place.
I think he's a good bloke too, a straight shooter. Not a blagger or a bullshitter. Was very impressed with our play in the second half v QPR and for large chunks of the game today. Was also impressed with what he said after both matches.
But
The vast majority of supporters did not want him, there is no escaping that. Whether it was the B-lose connection, his recent record vis a vis relegations or the reputation for dour football (probably a mix of all three).
What we are seeing now is fans voting with their feet.
You don't listen to us? OK - we won't go.
I agree that it would be weak management to pander to the fans on every little thing- and in picking the best candidate, you'd rarely get a consensus of opinion from the support base anyroad. Ancelotti apart (and that never really had legs, lets be honest) the polls here during the summer illustrated that point.
But what united most was McLeish was the one candidate they definitely didn't want.
The club didn't listen - this is the consequence.
people on here can keep taking the moral high ground and say it shouldn't be about who or where McLeish is or from but open your eyes this is the reason in my opinion why a large proportion of last seasons support are voting with their feet, the simple fact is the the mail poll revealed 97% of villa fans who voted didnt want McLeish so its a bit much to expect all of those against him to pay to watch his brand of football when Lerner basically pissed all over their bonfire. you can keep surmising all the reasons in the world why the support has dropped but Lerner has pissed a large amount off with this appointment, the thing is they just dont come on this forum to tell you lot.
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I watched the highlights against Wigan and was actually surprised at how attacking we were to be honest. If we the fans had not demanded better I feel sure he would have persisted with defensive, negative shite. He might get away with it at clubs that have no ambition other than survival or Rangers, but not here.
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My personal feeling is he's wanted us to be more attacking all along, but only know are the players starting to play how he wants. It's not as though we've been starting with negative lineups all season.
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The 'take your mates for a fiver' promotion didn't stir up any takers from my circle of friends who have stopped
going down to B6 -
This morning my local newsagent told me he watched the game live at his golf club, no need to queue for a drink, food
or the washroom..........it's not just the McLeish factor that is affecting attendances -
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The Holte corners were fuller than recently so people did take advantage but it might just have been people who were going to go anyway buying cheaper seats.
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The Holte corners were fuller than recently so people did take advantage but it might just have been people who were going to go anyway buying cheaper seats.
Was it just me or did the lower Holte look like there were lots of empty seats?
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The Holte corners were fuller than recently so people did take advantage but it might just have been people who were going to go anyway buying cheaper seats.
Was it just me or did the lower Holte look like there were lots of empty seats?
The middle bits looked emptier than usual.
Weird thing is, it seemed quite busy outside the ground, probably the busiest i've seen it so far this season. I even said to Legion it looked like we might have a half decent crowd.
In hindsight, everyone was probably just hanging about outside enjoying the sun.
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Football's going to hell in handcart I tells ya!
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The Website ticket pricing is all over the place and confusing for many and needs sorting out.
If they are going to offer ticket deals they ought to stop fleecing families. Both Blackburn and Wigan tickets were priced Holte lower wings Junior/Adult combo £36 or 2 adult combo for £30?
On both occasions have gone for the 2 for £30 with my 8 year old son but website does not make this particularly clear and people are feeling ripped off (like the bloke with his son sat next to me yesterday who had paid the extra £6 for same seats).
Things are very tight and having to pick and choose games carefully. Have told my son he can go to most of the low priced home games (also against poorer teams we might stand a chance of winning - is a good option with an 8 year old and has worked well so far this season Blackburn, Hereford and Wigan!)
Also what is so special about Norwich? Cheapest I can find for two of us is £42 when expecting another £30 or £36 deal again so might as well take my son up the baggies game instead for £45, better atmosphere and all that, and I'm not going to be on my own here am I, so more empty seats for the Norwich game I guess.
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I think the biggest problem is the fact yoni can watch the game in the pub for half what you would spend at the game and people are quite happy staying local to home.
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I think the biggest problem is the fact yoni can watch the game in the pub for half what you would spend at the game and people are quite happy staying local to home.
That's certainly part of the biggest problem. Since 1992 football has become increasingly a TV sport.
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I think the biggest problem is the fact yoni can watch the game in the pub for half what you would spend at the game and people are quite happy staying local to home.
That's certainly part of the biggest problem. Since 1992 football has become increasingly a TV sport.
Not forgetting the streams happily supplied by H&V.
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Once ppl stop going to football matches so regularly they tend to find other things to do with their time and/or find other ways of watching the match or keeping tabs on the result. Over the course of time, it then actually becomes an inconvenience to go to the game regardless of the price especially when the atmosphere and football being served up doesnt provide a worthwhile experience in money or time.
Personally, I simply cant afford to go to as many games as I would like to anymore, and I hate to admit it, but I've recently started to think that on the occasions that I've been down over the last few seasons, that time and money could possibly have been better spent else where. I used to be a season ticket holder, I grew up on the Holte and have followed the Villa up and down the country, so it really is a horrible feeling.
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It's clearly not just us. I got a begging letter last week from Danny Murphy urging me to go to tthe Fulham-QPR game. Despite being a very local derby they got about 2,000 under capacity (23.766 turned up).
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I've never understood how bars are able to so openly show games at 3pm on saturdays. I thought it was illegal?
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I've never understood how bars are able to so openly show games at 3pm on saturdays. I thought it was illegal?
There is a European Court Judgment this week that may well do that. A landlady in Portsmouth has gone to court to retain the right to show PL 3 pm Saturday games via a Greek satellite, the argument being that she should be freely able to purchase the rights anywhere in the European Union.
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Like KRS I used to go home and away but just can't afford it these days and miss the away matches dearly. To be honest I'm only going down for the sake of my son. Players excessive wages and no hope of the likes of us, Newcastle etc. having a pop at the title every now and then as used to be the case has just ruined it for me.
Back to my original point re Website ticket purchasing, forgot to mention that for the exact same seats if purchased via select a seat would be even more (£24 adult and £19 junior I think - whatever happened to half price under 16's and OAP's). The website can easily trick people in to paying much more than necessary. If people get ripped off once they probably won't come back and the OS e ticketing section could do with pop ups stating that cheaper options for same seats are available.
Enough of moaning on here I think an email to the club is in order.
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I have mentioned this a few times previously - a few years ago to find a pub that showed live away games was afeat in itself and most would keep it quiet. Nowadays almost every pub advertises live villa games.
I always grab a quick pint before the game before i have to go on duty. Last year at the first home game vs West Ham i was in the Aston hotel and it was advertised the game was on. There were a lot of fans in there in shirts and everything that had planned to spend the day in the pub and watch on tv - 250 metres away from the game live!
I know money is a huge factor but the same folk will not think anything of spending the cost of a match ticket in a pub
We have been brainwashed via sky that football is now a tv sport and the fans are merely a sound backdrop to the production - even that is claimed to be dubbed for foreign tv companies to add to the excitiment of the prem.
I know a Manchester based United fan and for years you could not get match tickets on the day without paying touts a ridiculous sum - even those days have gone as you can pay on the day at United.
Are Man city getting sell outs every week - no their not
It really is not just us but a statement of the times both financially and more worryingly how the game has been hijacked for tv
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I've never understood how bars are able to so openly show games at 3pm on saturdays. I thought it was illegal?
There is a European Court Judgment this week that may well do that. A landlady in Portsmouth has gone to court to retain the right to show PL 3 pm Saturday games via a Greek satellite, the argument being that she should be freely able to purchase the rights anywhere in the European Union.
I hope she wins. Maybe then the clubs will realise they can't take ridiculous sums of TV money and still fleece the fans as well.
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We have been brainwashed via sky that football is now a tv sport and the fans are merely a sound backdrop to the production - even that is claimed to be dubbed for foreign tv companies to add to the excitiment of the prem.
Good point. I was thinking that I would always prefer to watch the match in the stadium as you get to see the bigger picture - formations, players' movement etc - but you are right I am probably in the minority.
It's a scary thought as I was going to post that the income from people attending is decreasing as a % of turnover to the point where dropping the ticket prices might not make a huge difference to turnover (i.e. more people attending but paying a smaller amount each). However if the elasticity of demand does not exist then Villa/football maybe better off fleecing the minority and having empty stadiums.
Maybe it's time for the sugar daddy of football, SKY started advertising and encouraging joe public to attend live matches as ultimately it is their product that looks bad if there are empty seats.
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There is a row bubbling along in the Black Country via the E+S after comments made by Moxey about TV games at three affecting attendances at the Wolves.
He sounded like he was having a right old whinge, and has provoked plenty of comment mainly pointing out that the prices are too high.
This is a situation bought about by the games greed and avarice and rather than moaning, clubs should be pro-active in addressing the situation.
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There is a row bubbling along in the Black Country via the E+S after comments made by Moxey about TV games at three affecting attendances at the Wolves.
He sounded like he was having a right old whinge, and has provoked plenty of comment mainly pointing out that the prices are too high.
This is a situation bought about by the games greed and avarice and rather than moaning, clubs should be pro-active in addressing the situation.
Spot on Nev, they seem so detached from the reality of it all, not just the players as we'd expect but the administrators too.
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I've never understood how bars are able to so openly show games at 3pm on saturdays. I thought it was illegal?
There is a European Court Judgment this week that may well do that. A landlady in Portsmouth has gone to court to retain the right to show PL 3 pm Saturday games via a Greek satellite, the argument being that she should be freely able to purchase the rights anywhere in the European Union.
I'm a pub manager and the woman had a sky box and a greek card.
Nowadays the pubs get a european sky box German italian french or spanish and these show the 3pm matches. Sky for my pub is 950 a month euro sky 175 hate doing it but sky are pricing me out of the market
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I had a season ticket for the best part of 20 yrs but due to work commitments and varied kick off times its no longer worth my while-i must admit that paying £2 to watch the game on the internet is also an attraction in these days of spiraling costs and that the quality of football on most occasions has been pretty poor .
The game has changed a lot in recent years and its a case of the rich getting richer-we are becoming more like the spanish and scottish leagues where there are only only 2 or 3 teams in with a real chance of winning it and this coupled with the ridiculous wages paid to players has added to my apathy towards the game nowadays.
Oh, how much i miss the football i used to love in the 70s and 80s!
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I agree with a lot of the above, but I'm still getting excited by the thought of a good rearguard backs to the wall display at city in a couple of weeks. I can see gabby and bent snatching something on the break. A jammy one nil away win IS still possible for us against the big 3.
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It's a scary thought as I was going to post that the income from people attending is decreasing as a % of turnover to the point where dropping the ticket prices might not make a huge difference to turnover (i.e. more people attending but paying a smaller amount each)
I'm hoping that one day it will end up like most TV shows, where they let the studio audience in free.
For years we've been told that the TV money is the most important, and the paying spectator (and our money) is becoming less significant. So they won't miss us then will they?
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If it wasn't for sky would the games be cheaper or more expensive? Surely if Sky are pumping money in then they are bringing down the game to game cost?
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If it wasn't for sky would the games be cheaper or more expensive? Surely if Sky are pumping money in then they are bringing down the game to game cost?
This should be the case but what we've seen instead is the increased income from Sky being used by clubs to increase player's salaries rather than reduce ticket prices.
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How many of us use dodgy streams to watch the match?
TV licensing deals like Sky's with the PL are getting nigh on impossible to police.
I watch streams via an Apple TV (which I've hacked a bit) attached to my telly, and connected to liveonlinefooty.com, and to be honest, the quality really isn't that far off Sky broadcast quality.
Also, Sky have never been quite so bothered about protecting the territorial nature of rights deals when they're selling their subs to expats abroad, in national markets where other companies hold the rights. My parents lived abroad for 10 years and had Sky the whole time, as did pretty much everyone they knew. Simply having access to a UK postal address was all you needed, and Sky never, for example, gave a toss that the calls from teh box to Sky HQ - or indeed from users themselves - were coming from overseas.
They'd quite happily turn a blind eye to it, so long as they were making money.