The legacy of Martin O'Neill

[Concrete John]

John, those strengths are the strengths of lesser sides who don't look to dominate games, which if we're getting to the top we have to do against sides like Blackburn and Sunderland.

Maybe so, but my argument was always that what we needed was to ADD to our play and not totally adandon that which had largely worked for us.  We needed a ball player in the centre and better movement upfront to give us an extra dimension to our play.  Yet had we done that by sacrificing the wing play or counter attacking we'd have ended up pretty much as we were.

[TimTheVillain]

Me too, I would not have gone to many of the later stage matches last season if I hadnt a season ticket.
Ged , please deliver something interesting to watch!

[Rudy Can't Fail]

You'll not be suprised that I find it difficult to argue with the late, great Jock Stein: "I think it is important to win a match, but I think what is even more important is the manner in which you win."

I notice he doesn't say the manner in which you lose!  I think that's one for our side of the argument!

Obviously we all want to win but the manner in which you win is so important. It's all down to developing, progressing, becoming a better side, which in turn will make winning easier. Credit to MON for getting us three top six finishes but we rarely looked like a top 6 side.

I remember at the tail end of the season watching Spurs and thinking they actually do look like a top 4 side. They'd developed their play over the season, everybody knew their job and I hate to say it but were a joy to watch. That's where I want us to be but it was obvious we were never going to achieve it with MON, Robertson and Walford. There's only so far 100% effort can take you.

[Monty]

It's true that there was a lot of our play that was very good. However, there was a fundamental problem with the thinking behind it, that I believe needs more than just tweaking to improve. There seemed to be a total disregard for the idea of combinations in the centre, a lack of patience when in possession, being all-too willing to just throw it into the area and see what happens. The 4-4-2 also doesn't help, as it only works now as a defensive formation, yet it was played in home games against the likes of West Ham, and we were outnumbered and frustrated in the midfield. It was so fundamentally predictable and wrong, both in entertainment and results terms, and the whole philosophy needs a rethink, not a tweak.

[pauliewalnuts]

I remember at the tail end of the season watching Spurs and thinking they actually do look like a top 4 side. They'd developed their play over the season, everybody knew their job and I hate to say it but were a joy to watch.

I absolutely hate Tottenham as a club, and their fans always seem to be particularly nauseating, but you're right, the fact is, they frequently did look very impressive last season, they certainly looked the part, it pains me to say.

I found the way we played quite embarassing at times. I'm aware that probably comes across as melodramatic, but it was all just so drab and functional.

I don't know what worried me most, though, whether MON didn't know how to change it, or if he didn't think it needed changing in the first place.

[TimTheVillain]

John, those strengths are the strengths of lesser sides who don't look to dominate games, which if we're getting to the top we have to do against sides like Blackburn and Sunderland.

Maybe so, but my argument was always that what we needed was to ADD to our play and not totally adandon that which had largely worked for us.  We needed a ball player in the centre and better movement upfront to give us an extra dimension to our play.  Yet had we done that by sacrificing the wing play or counter attacking we'd have ended up pretty much as we were.

Thing is John, MON wasn't the man to create that.

He did take the club as far as he could, it's just his timing that was so wrong as he definately wasn't going to be anywhere near a P45 from Randy.

[sfx412]

Me too, I would not have gone to many of the later stage matches last season if I hadnt a season ticket.
Ged , please deliver something interesting to watch!

Sorry he can bore the pants off me if he brings home the trophies.

for a while at least

Re the point about 'direct football'. I rarely saw, especially after Mon sold Barry balls played out from defence through midfield to the attack. I'd agree there was some variation but I remember in Mon's early days shouting at Mellberg not to hoof a clearance up to the middle, only for him to smile and shrug his shoulders.
Its always the option of limited teams ask Stoke, Bolton, and we did it far too often

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I don't know what worried me most, though, whether MON didn't know how to change it, or if he didn't think it needed changing in the first place.

I'd like to think he knew how to change it and he knew it needed changing but what held him back was his loyalty to Robertson and Walford. It probably would have called for him spending more time on the the training sessions, which in turn would probably have meant letting go of some of his power around Villa Park.

[not3bad]

I don't know what worried me most, though, whether MON didn't know how to change it, or if he didn't think it needed changing in the first place.

I don't know whether I'm remembering it differently to other people but there was a point, around the time we beat Man Utd last year and when Downing had just come into the side and Milner had just moved into the central midfield, when actually Villa did start to play some good stuff.  I thought at that point MON had found the answer.  This period, however, was all too short and the side was soon again playing as is being discussed.  I don't know if the lack of rotation played a part, or the fact that Cuellar was by now entrenched on the right.

[Villa'Zawg]

I know this point could lead to another discussion about money and transfers, so let's not go there.

You do though have to take into account the options available. Both Villa and Spurs had 11 players who played 20+ games last season. I think we were reasonably closely matched on 1st 11. The difference was in what was available in depth behind that, players that could play 10 or so games or could come on and make an impact every now and then. We have Heskey, Sidwell and NRC. Spurs had Bale, Bentley, Gudjohnsen, Jenas, Kaboul, Keane, Kranjcar and Pavyluchenko.

We just don't have a strong enough squad to be able to change things around frequently and target the weaknesses in other teams squads. We have to play our way, the best we can.

[pauliewalnuts]

VD, i think the problem was not the lack of strength in depth, certainly not in the style of play we adopted. The issue was that Martin frequently had us looking like less than the sum of the parts. 

We never focused on the "simple" things like keeping the ball, moving off it, creating options for players - whether we had our strongest 11 playing or not.

[Michel Sibble]

MON thought we were a Man City, where we were closer to Everton.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I think we were reasonably closely matched on 1st 11.

The two games last season showed the huge gulf in approach and style between the two teams. I don't recall the line ups but only one team looked like breaking the top 4.

[jembob]

VD, i think the problem was not the lack of strength in depth, certainly not in the style of play we adopted. The issue was that Martin frequently had us looking like less than the sum of the parts. 

We never focused on the "simple" things like keeping the ball, moving off it, creating options for players - whether we had our strongest 11 playing or not.

I was talking to a guy at work about Villa and he was surprised to hear me say that I was pleased to see the back of MON. My main gripe was that MON never seemed to learn anything from games and cannot possibly have watched reruns of games. As a result me made the same mistakes every single week to the point where we knew how a home game would pan out virtually every week.

If MON had resigned at the end of the season before last then he would have left a legacy of a talented young squad. If he'd have resigned at the end of last season then people would have wished him well while knowing that he was failing. Leaving the way he did eventually will mean that his legacy will be one of contempt from the fans. There's a lot to be said for quitting while you are ahead.

[JUAN PABLO]

I'm going out for a meal now with some one who used to work for MON tonight. Should be an interesting night....  ;-))



hes just told me Houlier didnt turn up today....