The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[pauliewalnuts]

In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.

You're falling into the trap of making an assumption there.

It could be he wanted 2 million, we offered 500k and it settled for 1m.  there's no winner or loser in that, it's a value both are willing to accept to save the hassle of a 'hearing', it's really not uncommon and is favoured because no one wins.

What assumption am I making?  He wanted compensation; we didn't think he deserved any.  We ended up having to pay him.  No assumptions in there at all.

Apart from the one that we didn't think he deserved any.

We might have disputed the figure rather than the fact he deserved anything.

[paul_e]

In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.

You're falling into the trap of making an assumption there.

It could be he wanted 2 million, we offered 500k and it settled for 1m.  there's no winner or loser in that, it's a value both are willing to accept to save the hassle of a 'hearing', it's really not uncommon and is favoured because no one wins.

What assumption am I making?  He wanted compensation; we didn't think he deserved any.  We ended up having to pay him.  No assumptions in there at all.

Apart from the one that we didn't think he deserved any.

We might have disputed the figure rather than the fact he deserved anything.

Exactly, The assumption that he 'won' because we were scared and just paid him off to keep him quiet just doesn't sit right with me.  I guess there was some clauses in his contract, 1 of which he activated when he left resulting in him being owed something.  We debated that the cost of finding a replacement and a full set of staff at that point in time should be taken into account and after negotiations it was settled.

I have no evidence for that but I suspect it's more realistic than many other ideas.

As for Villadroid, it's getting quite tiring reading the nonsense you post.  You're effectively claiming to want to make people think about the other side of things but have been consistent in refusing to do the same yourself, to the point of ignoring most of the arguments put forward.

[LeeB]

So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.

I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?

He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.

Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.

He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.

I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.

Amen.

And I think we've got a lot to look forward to.

[pauliewalnuts]

So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.

I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?

He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.

Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.

He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.

I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.

Amen.

And I think we've got a lot to look forward to.

I agree.

I like the manager, I like what he is trying to do, I can see small signs of it working (even the media seem to), and think it will continue to get better. He needs to be backed in the transfer market, though, or he's on to a loser.

With McLeish, I didn't like what he was trying to do, and I don't think his vision of how football should be played (based on what he did with us, and what he'd done before) was ever going to be anything I'd like to watch us play.

Lambert isn't getting the results at the moment, but I at least like what he is trying to do. With McLeish, I couldn't even say that.

[FrankyH]

I naively thought O'Neill wouldn't take a long contract (he was on a 1 year rolling I believe) as he was a principled man , who wouldn't take a big pay off if he failed /got sacked/went to another club/walked out.

Compare that to Sir Graham who wouldn't take Doug's hush money, but would rather give his honest opinion about our club.

[LeeB]

So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.

I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?

He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.

Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.

He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.

I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.

Amen.

And I think we've got a lot to look forward to.

I agree.

I like the manager, I like what he is trying to do, I can see small signs of it working (even the media seem to), and think it will continue to get better. He needs to be backed in the transfer market, though, or he's on to a loser.

With McLeish, I didn't like what he was trying to do, and I don't think his vision of how football should be played (based on what he did with us, and what he'd done before) was ever going to be anything I'd like to watch us play.

Lambert isn't getting the results at the moment, but I at least like what he is trying to do. With McLeish, I couldn't even say that.

He cut right to the heart of what was wrong with us, rooted out anyone who would hold us back, got the message home within less than six months that you have to earn the right to play.

On top of that we're actually beginning to play what resembles modern football, and he's signed some cracking players nobody had heard of for buttons.

People are giving stick over Bent but they can bollocks. This man is no fool, we'll come up roses on whatever happens.

[Hillbilly]

From The Guardian:
"Neil Lennon is emerging from the shadows of Martin O'Neill and Gordon Strachan. Celtic's manager paid tribute to two of his predecessors in the immediate aftermath of Wednesday night's win over Spartak Moscow. O'Neill never garnered 10 points from a Champions League group nor led a Celtic team to the last 16, despite the significant resources at his disposal."

I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way. History might not be a kind judge.

[Drummond]

The club settled the MON case because

 a) it didn't want to air dirty linen in public,

b) it's cheaper than losing

 c) it's cheaper than winning but fighting the process and paying the legal fees,

 d) it didn't have the time or will to tie Lerner, Faulkner and other key personnel into attending the hearing or preparing all the evidence.

Tribunals are messy, believe me as being someone who has been on the end of spurious and false claims.

[N'ZMAV]

I think we should knock all this on the head now.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way. History might not be a kind judge.

Agree on both points. His best hope is to hook up with his mate at ITV Sport as he's very close to being fully found out. Maybe TV will help him maintain the myth that surrounds him. It says a lot when loyal Sunderland supporters that have suffered for years are already tired of him.

[peter w]

Since the the early 80s evry good Villa spell has been followed by a slump. 81-83 led to relegation. 89-90 led to us nearly going down the following year. BFR and Sir Brian Little  led to another slump that Gregory rescued. His  time ended up with us nearly going down under the Second Coming. O'Leary finished 6th and then left us (as did Doug0 in all sorts of bother. In rode Randy and MON and we looked again as if we were going places. It didn't happen and again we're left fighting for scraps.

We usually come out of our slump quicker than we have which adds to the current angst. But to try and seel O'Neill and some sort of demi-God for having the most resources given to him than most nmanagers in the game at the same time, and to hold onto his coat tails because of finishing 6th 3 times is frankly under selling ourselves as a club, and buying into the media's representation of us. We have finished 6th or above 11 times since 1980. Winning 5 trophies in that time.

Since football began we have finsihed 6 or above 9 times in 20 seasons. We have finshed 7th - 9th 4 times. We have been in the final of Cup competitions 4 times and semi-finalists 4 times.  (None of these figures include Intertoto or the Peace Cup before anyone starts).

Now tell me again Villadroid, exactly what did MON do that was so fantastic? He performed to what is teh Villa average despite having more money and better players than a lot of his predecessors over the last 30 years. The money argument is a non-entity here as that reared its head after his 4 season of not been able to do much better than what most Villa manager's do but with less resources on offer.

Plus, as been said, the way he left us will leave a sour taste in most people's mouths. That, as a fan, should come just about before everything. He cared about the club enough to drop us right in the sh*t when he knew we'd have very little time to do anything about it.

[N'ZMAV]

I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way. History might not be a kind judge.

Agree on both points. His best hope is to hook up with his mate at ITV Sport as he's very close to being fully found out. Maybe TV will help him maintain the myth that surrounds him. It says a lot when loyal Sunderland supporters that have suffered for years are already tired of him.

He'll always be a 'media darling'...

[not3bad]

From The Guardian:
"Neil Lennon is emerging from the shadows of Martin O'Neill and Gordon Strachan. Celtic's manager paid tribute to two of his predecessors in the immediate aftermath of Wednesday night's win over Spartak Moscow. O'Neill never garnered 10 points from a Champions League group nor led a Celtic team to the last 16, despite the significant resources at his disposal."

I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way.

Villadroid had better get to a Celtic forum.  They may need an "alternative viewpoint to the prevailing narrative".

[Villadroid]

From The Guardian:
"Neil Lennon is emerging from the shadows of Martin O'Neill and Gordon Strachan. Celtic's manager paid tribute to two of his predecessors in the immediate aftermath of Wednesday night's win over Spartak Moscow. O'Neill never garnered 10 points from a Champions League group nor led a Celtic team to the last 16, despite the significant resources at his disposal."

I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way.

Villadroid had better get to a Celtic forum.  They may need an "alternative viewpoint to the prevailing narrative".

But isn't he just saying that the prevailing narrative of the fans has shifted since Lennon succeeded in getting to the knock-out stage of the CL?

But I am glad to find that you accept that there is a prevailing narrative, now.

[KevinGage]

Since the the early 80s evry good Villa spell has been followed by a slump. 81-83 led to relegation. 89-90 led to us nearly going down the following year. BFR and Sir Brian Little  led to another slump that Gregory rescued. His  time ended up with us nearly going down under the Second Coming. O'Leary finished 6th and then left us (as did Doug0 in all sorts of bother. In rode Randy and MON and we looked again as if we were going places. It didn't happen and again we're left fighting for scraps.

We usually come out of our slump quicker than we have which adds to the current angst. But to try and seel O'Neill and some sort of demi-God for having the most resources given to him than most nmanagers in the game at the same time, and to hold onto his coat tails because of finishing 6th 3 times is frankly under selling ourselves as a club, and buying into the media's representation of us. We have finished 6th or above 11 times since 1980. Winning 5 trophies in that time.

Since football began we have finsihed 6 or above 9 times in 20 seasons. We have finshed 7th - 9th 4 times. We have been in the final of Cup competitions 4 times and semi-finalists 4 times.  (None of these figures include Intertoto or the Peace Cup before anyone starts).

Now tell me again Villadroid, exactly what did MON do that was so fantastic? He performed to what is teh Villa average despite having more money and better players than a lot of his predecessors over the last 30 years. The money argument is a non-entity here as that reared its head after his 4 season of not been able to do much better than what most Villa manager's do but with less resources on offer.

Plus, as been said, the way he left us will leave a sour taste in most people's mouths. That, as a fan, should come just about before everything. He cared about the club enough to drop us right in the sh*t when he knew we'd have very little time to do anything about it.

Absolutey spot on Peter.