The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[pauliewalnuts]

Incidentally, "we could do with a football person on the board" was something which was said on here thousands of times over the last six years.

It's pretty hard to argue that we were incorrect on that front, given the way things panned out.

[Monty]

I agree with that assessment, Paulie. There is a kind of rush to blame 'someone', as opposed to the reality which says that it took a few people to feck up a pretty good situation quite as badly as they have.

[pauliewalnuts]

I would also flag up how frequently on the General's thread people asked about or mentioned the financial situation, as it was causing concern, and were told by the General not to worry about it - almost to the point of it being patronising (don't worry your little heads, etc).

I don't want to dwell on the way he said it, I am sure his intent wasn't to patronise, but his message was very clear. That it was something not worth worrying about.

Clearly, it was.

[maidstonevillain]

The problem regarding when Lerner should have said no is that he had, at all times, an overview of the financial situation of the club.

He then got to the point where things were so bad, we had to scale back so quickly, we almost got relegated.

It's hard for us to say when he should have put the brakes on, because we didn't see the overview of the financial situation. He did.

What's more, he should ideally have had some sort of plan to grow the club which extended beyond only listening to his manager. It's not hard to conclude that MON was the only person with input to that, because as soon as he fucked off, everything started to go to shit on a number of fronts. Farcical manager searches with even more farcical appointments. That sort of thing.

But we don't know what other events there were occurring in the background, over which Lerner did not have control. For example it has been said that the Lerner fortune is, or was, tied heavily to Bank of America stock. This collapsed quite dramatically at round about the time Lerner pulled the reins in.

[dave.woodhall]

Incidentally, "we could do with a football person on the board" was something which was said on here thousands of times over the last six years.

It's pretty hard to argue that we were incorrect on that front, given the way things panned out.

Can I also point out that some of us were against him having 100% control at the same time as others were falling over themselves to demand he got it?

[Hoppo]

Does anyone else think we need to forget about O'Neill and concentrate on the present manager?  O'Neill is dead  to me now.

[mr woo]

The legend of MON is based upon his ability to win a cup at Leicester, punch above their weight in the league, and even get 11 games and 5 goals out of Collymore, when Villa had written him off.

Reversing the dominance of Rangers in the Old Firm contest added further to his reputation.

Villa fans knew what they were getting and welcomed him with open arms because they had good reason to believe that he could bridge the huge financial gap between Villa and the big boys with some investment from the ambitious new owner.

The idea being to build a team good enough to qualify for the Champions League and then once plugged into the European cash-cow build Villa's turnover and their glamour, as they signed better players and took themselves to the next level.

Sadly, three sixth-place finishes weren't enough and by the time Villa notched up their first away win at Old Trafford for an age and were having a measure of success in reaching a cup final and a semi-final in the same season, things had already turned sour between O'Neill and Lerner and the gig was up.

A significant fall in the owner's wealth, due to the banking crisis; divorce and family troubles, all became distractions for the owner and a restructuring of the club's management took place, as Paul Faulkner was appointed Chief Executive in 2010.

MON decided he didn't like the changes to the conditions of his employment and decided to leave. Whether it was precipitated by the sale of James Milner or the changes to management, or something else entirely, no one but the parties involved are in a position to know.

It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.

You could also say its difficult to make a case that things have improved for Martin O'Neill since he left Aston Villa....

That aside, I have to say I think you have summed up the MON years pretty much as I see them.

With HINDSIGHT, there were mistakes made on both sides, some through naivety, some through stubbornness, and I'm sure some were ill- fated yet honest decisions that just seemed right at the time.

There were the outside influences that conspired against us, those late Stoke goals, Redknapps Spurs revival, Randys cashflow problems and worst of all Man City's infinite cash pot.

The way I see it, like a middle distance runner trailing the pack, playing catch up from the start, we only ever had a shit or bust chance of triumph. We gave everything we'd got coming round the final bend into the straight hoping it would be enough. I think  we frightened one or two and they fought back and kicked on, till we hit the point where we couldn't sustain the challenge any longer.

I'm sure I'm not the only Villa fan that misses those days, we were relevant again and after so many years of feeling 'distanced' by the hierarchy, it really felt like we'd had OUR club given back to US. 

Sometimes though, I think I am alone in passing up the inquest in order to hunt down this big bad wolf that brought the fun to an end, and that's simply because I don't think there ever was one.

[Villadroid]

The legend of MON is based upon his ability to win a cup at Leicester, punch above their weight in the league, and even get 11 games and 5 goals out of Collymore, when Villa had written him off.

Reversing the dominance of Rangers in the Old Firm contest added further to his reputation.

Villa fans knew what they were getting and welcomed him with open arms because they had good reason to believe that he could bridge the huge financial gap between Villa and the big boys with some investment from the ambitious new owner.

The idea being to build a team good enough to qualify for the Champions League and then once plugged into the European cash-cow build Villa's turnover and their glamour, as they signed better players and took themselves to the next level.

Sadly, three sixth-place finishes weren't enough and by the time Villa notched up their first away win at Old Trafford for an age and were having a measure of success in reaching a cup final and a semi-final in the same season, things had already turned sour between O'Neill and Lerner and the gig was up.

A significant fall in the owner's wealth, due to the banking crisis; divorce and family troubles, all became distractions for the owner and a restructuring of the club's management took place, as Paul Faulkner was appointed Chief Executive in 2010.

MON decided he didn't like the changes to the conditions of his employment and decided to leave. Whether it was precipitated by the sale of James Milner or the changes to management, or something else entirely, no one but the parties involved are in a position to know.

It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.

You could also say its difficult to make a case that things have improved for Martin O'Neill since he left Aston Villa....

That aside, I have to say I think you have summed up the MON years pretty much as I see them.

With HINDSIGHT, there were mistakes made on both sides, some through naivety, some through stubbornness, and I'm sure some were ill- fated yet honest decisions that just seemed right at the time.

There were the outside influences that conspired against us, those late Stoke goals, Redknapps Spurs revival, Randys cashflow problems and worst of all Man City's infinite cash pot.

The way I see it, like a middle distance runner trailing the pack, playing catch up from the start, we only ever had a shit or bust chance of triumph. We gave everything we'd got coming round the final bend into the straight hoping it would be enough. I think  we frightened one or two and they fought back and kicked on, till we hit the point where we couldn't sustain the challenge any longer.

I'm sure I'm not the only Villa fan that misses those days, we were relevant again and after so many years of feeling 'distanced' by the hierarchy, it really felt like we'd had OUR club given back to US. 

Sometimes though, I think I am alone in passing up the inquest in order to hunt down this big bad wolf that brought the fun to an end, and that's simply because I don't think there ever was one.

Nicely put.

[Brend'Watkins]

The legend of MON is based upon his ability to win a cup at Leicester, punch above their weight in the league, and even get 11 games and 5 goals out of Collymore, when Villa had written him off.

Reversing the dominance of Rangers in the Old Firm contest added further to his reputation.

Villa fans knew what they were getting and welcomed him with open arms because they had good reason to believe that he could bridge the huge financial gap between Villa and the big boys with some investment from the ambitious new owner.

The idea being to build a team good enough to qualify for the Champions League and then once plugged into the European cash-cow build Villa's turnover and their glamour, as they signed better players and took themselves to the next level.

Sadly, three sixth-place finishes weren't enough and by the time Villa notched up their first away win at Old Trafford for an age and were having a measure of success in reaching a cup final and a semi-final in the same season, things had already turned sour between O'Neill and Lerner and the gig was up.

A significant fall in the owner's wealth, due to the banking crisis; divorce and family troubles, all became distractions for the owner and a restructuring of the club's management took place, as Paul Faulkner was appointed Chief Executive in 2010.

MON decided he didn't like the changes to the conditions of his employment and decided to leave. Whether it was precipitated by the sale of James Milner or the changes to management, or something else entirely, no one but the parties involved are in a position to know.

It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.

You could also say its difficult to make a case that things have improved for Martin O'Neill since he left Aston Villa....

That aside, I have to say I think you have summed up the MON years pretty much as I see them.

With HINDSIGHT, there were mistakes made on both sides, some through naivety, some through stubbornness, and I'm sure some were ill- fated yet honest decisions that just seemed right at the time.

There were the outside influences that conspired against us, those late Stoke goals, Redknapps Spurs revival, Randys cashflow problems and worst of all Man City's infinite cash pot.

The way I see it, like a middle distance runner trailing the pack, playing catch up from the start, we only ever had a shit or bust chance of triumph. We gave everything we'd got coming round the final bend into the straight hoping it would be enough. I think  we frightened one or two and they fought back and kicked on, till we hit the point where we couldn't sustain the challenge any longer.

I'm sure I'm not the only Villa fan that misses those days, we were relevant again and after so many years of feeling 'distanced' by the hierarchy, it really felt like we'd had OUR club given back to US. 

Sometimes though, I think I am alone in passing up the inquest in order to hunt down this big bad wolf that brought the fun to an end, and that's simply because I don't think there ever was one.

Nicely put.

If MON had left in May at the end of the season I don't think he would have been remembered half as badly.

If MON had left in May at the end of the season minus the dross and the dross on high wages and long contracts he would have been remembered fondly.

[TonyD]

What's all this "hindsight" rubbish.  It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.     

[Steve R]

Paulie...

I would suspect that putting a football man on the board would have seen O'Neill disappear off out of the door a lot sooner than he did. It probably would have been a good thing for the club for the wrong reasons. It would also have flown in the face of what has and hasn't worked elsewhere in English football.

I cannot speak for what the General said, or how he put it. The one reply that would have surprised me would have been 'fuck me, you are right. We're in the shit'. A the time, had the players actually have been worth the money we paid we probably would have made champions league revenues our own.

Were the means by which Lerner identified his managerial appointments really so farcical? All I remember was that three times in a row there was much gnashing of keyboards that it was taking too long. One decision was a bad one.

I have no doubt that Lerner was well aware of the club's longer term financial commitment. In a business that gives you two opportunities a year to address liabilities and take on further risk in pursuit of success, decision making is anything but straightforward. Especially when events outside the game can change things very quickly and as it happened, very radically.

Do you really mean to imply that if O'Neill had stayed he would have saved us from all this? My own feelings at the time was that his 'success' was built on feet of clay and that his exit - however damagingly timed - was the first step (of many) towards getting a team worth following.

I am not saying Lerner is either blameless or has had everything under control at all times.

This is not a comment directed at you, but it would appear to me that he is getting a lot of stick - and personal abuse - for doing the very things that Doug was criticised for not doing a decade ago.

It all seems a bit two legs good four legs bad to me. There is still for me one main culprit for what has been three and most likely a few more years of grevious matchday angst.

[Risso]

I would also flag up how frequently on the General's thread people asked about or mentioned the financial situation, as it was causing concern, and were told by the General not to worry about it - almost to the point of it being patronising (don't worry your little heads, etc).

I don't want to dwell on the way he said it, I am sure his intent wasn't to patronise, but his message was very clear. That it was something not worth worrying about.

Clearly, it was.

I remember the first time we made a big loss, the General was on here and VT saying not to worry as it was fully expected.  It appeared to be less 'expected' when it happened for the second, third and fourth years running though.  What Robin Russell was doing during that time lord only knows.

[mr woo]

But surely it only became clear after he blew the money? Therefore hindsight is relevant?

[nick harper]

What's all this "hindsight" rubbish.  It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.     

Not to me it wasn't. We were competing with the top four and often giving them a bloody nose. I enjoyed winning more often than not and clubs seeing us as a threat.

It all ended sadly but we had a good team with some top quality players and many memorable games. We were very close to making the breakthrough.

[Villadroid]

I would also flag up how frequently on the General's thread people asked about or mentioned the financial situation, as it was causing concern, and were told by the General not to worry about it - almost to the point of it being patronising (don't worry your little heads, etc).

I don't want to dwell on the way he said it, I am sure his intent wasn't to patronise, but his message was very clear. That it was something not worth worrying about.

Clearly, it was.

That is exactly how I remember it.

I can only paraphrase him but he said something like, don't worry we were expecting to make a loss and everything is going to plan.