The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[dave.woodhall]

Spurs didn't have the wage bill we did, and they also have much bigger income.

[Ger Regan]

I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....

For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.

Would we have had to apply the brakes so hard if we'd been able to make that extra step and qualify for the Champins League?

Spurs had one season in the CL - does that really make a huge difference to their long term finances?

Possibly not, but sound financial planning and a famously tight wage structure certainly would.

[itbrvilla]

I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....

For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.

Within their means.

Spot on.  As much as we all hate them, they a much better run club that we were at the time, who actually appeared to have a plan or strategy in place.

[Concrete John]

I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....

For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.

Would we have had to apply the brakes so hard if we'd been able to make that extra step and qualify for the Champins League?

Spurs had one season in the CL - does that really make a huge difference to their long term finances?

Possibly not, but sound financial planning and a famously tight wage structure certainly would.

Very true.  I guess the short term-ism that dominated MON's tenure was off the pitch as well as on it, so Randy needs to take his share of the blame for that.

[PaulWinch again]

O'Neill did some good stuff at Villa and we were competetive up and around the top level of the league. However his failure to be flexible and put the work in was his undoing in the end. The inability to perform at home due to lack of tactical awareness, and the insistence of buying players from the British Isles at inflated prices from teams who tended to finish near the bottom of the table were major failings. The latter was pure laziness and unwillingness to look abroad for talent. Those things combined with favouritism and picking the same players all the time regardless of form meant he would never succeed at the very top. The last point is a trap I hope that Lambert doesn't fall into.

[Ger Regan]

Very true.  I guess the short term-ism that dominated MON's tenure was off the pitch as well as on it, so Randy needs to take his share of the blame for that.

Indeed, but nobody will be able to convince me that O'Neill wouldn't have walked sooner had Lerner exerted more control earlier into his time with us. I've said it on more than one occasion, but Lerner was in a no-win situation, as you can guarantee that he would have been severely criticised for not acquiescing to O'Neill's wage / transfer demands, such was O'Neill's popularity at the time (and I include myself in that group btw).

[brontebilly]

Regarding the defence a perfect example of his buying policy was Bouma being injured and us promptly buying Nicky Shorey from new relegated Reading..who lasted a handful of games before being dropped.As I recall he went and asked Sidwell if he was any good ..that was the grand total of his ''scouting '' network.Same with Beye we needed a RB and that was the best he could fine ..seriously.I also recall us being linked to Falcao now at Atheltico Madrid and him saying something like we will be looking closer to home ..we brought Heskey...

The irony of it is the one player who looks to be value for money and good for us long term is Guzan the one player he did buy from abroad !!Downing ,Young and Milner good buys but it's not like we plucked them from obscurity we paid top rate for them

I think the screw is turning on him now as his Sunderland spending has mirrored our own...what is it around £25mil on Fletcher and Johnson alone.Also there is this fabled ability of his to motivate players , I guess getting some average players paying them far more than their worth and give them loads of time off would help...

Downing was muck under MON.

To be fair to MON re the youth players he sold, there werent too many calling for Whittingham, Ridgewell to be kept on. Nor for me Craig Gardner who I thought was a very limited player and still do really. Davis for me was worth keeping, Cahill the huge mistake. Not sure why he didnt rate him.

Shorey and Warnock were bizarre signings. Shorey was destroyed by Ashley Young a few months before we signed him. Milner destroyed Warnock in one of our best games under MON. 2-0 win at Ewood Park in Feb time. We went on an awful run afterwards.

Habib Beye's signing reminded me of a particularly bizarre signing of Chimbonda at Spurs under Redknapp..... Then there was signing Collins and Dunne when Davies and Cuellar were still at the club

[peter w]

Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.

What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?

It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.

Which I don't believe for one second.

[pauliewalnuts]

I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....

For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.

Within their means.

Spot on.  As much as we all hate them, they a much better run club that we were at the time, who actually appeared to have a plan or strategy in place.

Spurs have always run a tight wage bill, and keep one eye on future sale value of their players.

It's easy to point the finger at them and call them a selling club, too, but they invest their money from sales wisely (on the whole).

A few years on from when we were competing with them, they've got a strong squad and have stayed up there or thereabouts. We, on the other hand, are relegation strugglers with a championship squad, who look very much like going nowhere fast. Or at least nowhere we'd like to go.

[pauliewalnuts]

Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.

What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?

It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.

Which I don't believe for one second.

If Lerner was seemingly incapable of saying no to MON or questioning his wage bill for the best part of four years, I find it really hard to believe he'd have the balls to tell him to "throw" a competition.

I find it quite easy to believe MON would prefer people to think otherwise, mind.

[peter w]

O'Neill did some good stuff at Villa and we were competetive up and around the top level of the league. However his failure to be flexible and put the work in was his undoing in the end. The inability to perform at home due to lack of tactical awareness, and the insistence of buying players from the British Isles at inflated prices from teams who tended to finish near the bottom of the table were major failings. The latter was pure laziness and unwillingness to look abroad for talent. Those things combined with favouritism and picking the same players all the time regardless of form meant he would never succeed at the very top. The last point is a trap I hope that Lambert doesn't fall into.


 

The players we had meant that we should have been at the top end. His biggest failure for me at that time was that with the players and resources then at his disposal the third finish of 6 th place was a massive underachievement. You could also say that for the second 6th place position.

Just because we hadn't finished 6th for nigh on ten years doesn't mean we should just be thankful for small mercies when it was really a failing on O'Neill's part to do more with probably the best side we've had since 80-81.

[PaulWinch again]

O'Neill did some good stuff at Villa and we were competetive up and around the top level of the league. However his failure to be flexible and put the work in was his undoing in the end. The inability to perform at home due to lack of tactical awareness, and the insistence of buying players from the British Isles at inflated prices from teams who tended to finish near the bottom of the table were major failings. The latter was pure laziness and unwillingness to look abroad for talent. Those things combined with favouritism and picking the same players all the time regardless of form meant he would never succeed at the very top. The last point is a trap I hope that Lambert doesn't fall into.


 

The players we had meant that we should have been at the top end. His biggest failure for me at that time was that with the players and resources then at his disposal the third finish of 6 th place was a massive underachievement. You could also say that for the second 6th place position.

Just because we hadn't finished 6th for nigh on ten years doesn't mean we should just be thankful for small mercies when it was really a failing on O'Neill's part to do more with probably the best side we've had since 80-81.

I think it's the point around insisting on playing the same side that's key to that, the players just got tired out. It was no coincidence that we never won games in March, it was poor management. If he'd been flexible and switching things around a bit, I'm convinced we would have been top 4 that year we were miles ahead of Arsenal.

[damon loves JT]

I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....

For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.

Within their means.

Spot on.  As much as we all hate them, they a much better run club that we were at the time, who actually appeared to have a plan or strategy in place.

Spurs have always run a tight wage bill, and keep one eye on future sale value of their players.

It's easy to point the finger at them and call them a selling club, too, but they invest their money from sales wisely (on the whole).

I'd love to know what statistical evidence you have to back that argument.

[supertom]

I'm not too sure on this one. I think some may have argued that three 6th place finishes in a row was possibly an overachievement for us. Maybe in the first two 6th places. By that third season with all the money we'd outlayed, you'd have expected that minimum and a decent 4th push. We did push reasonably well and had the cup final. I'm not gonna start saying O Neill didn't do good things here because he did. We also did play some exciting football, particularly in his 2nd and third season when we scored pretty regularly.

There's still that feeling though that a more varied transfer policy and more tactical nouse (hell, just a plan B) that we missed our best shot of being in the Champs league. Our European outings were largely disappointing to.

But in truth, O Neill was destined to revert back to a mid-table manager under us. There's no doubt we'd have fallen back after losing Milner and just one too many years playing exactly the same way. Teams work you out and get your number. I think in part O Neill quit while he was ahead, for egos sake. I don't believe he felt we could do any more than he did that final season. I'd go along with that too.

He'll be back to his standard with Sunderland and that's mid table. They've given him cash but he won't get the same amount he got under Randy. Plus I don't see him unearthing any more Ashley Youngs to be honest. His young signings weren't generally brilliant. Delph's been a waste thus far. Milner was a good signing but a very known qaulity. The black cats should expect signings more akin to the Sidwells, Knights etc than Young, Milner and Downing. They'll have piss poor sell on value.

He's vastly overrated though. Had he left here on good terms I'd have absolutely no problems with his time here, signings aside. Again though, Randy runs the club, signs the cheques and should take half the blame there. But fucking off a week before the season was a disgrace. He'd seemed a bit less enthused in the final month or two of the season before because it seemed Milners exit and a tighter budget was foregone. I don't think his heart was really in it during pre-season either. I mean he probably knew well enough he was gonna fuck off, so he should have just done it in May.

I look forward to his stock falling this season.

[QBVILLA]

How can there be an argument that 6th place was an under achievement when the O'Neill detractors say that he left us with a mediocre squad?