The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[KevinGage]

And yet Spurs fans were critical of their DoF set up after Jol left in 2007, as it had prevented them from getting O'Neill.      Funny old game.

Not that they were close to getting him in 2007, I might add.   I think he was in the running in 2004.

[not3bad]

For me the MON love in ended quite late.  I forgave him Moscow and put it down to the evils of the modern game forcing clubs to chase after champions league qualification before all else.

But one very cold afternoon in Stoke during year 4 I watched a dreadful 0-0 draw when I had just recovered from illness.  MON was standing watching this dross in his trademark tracksuit and one of the Villa fans shouted something like "Martin! Do something!"

He sent Heskey on 15 minutes from the end I think.  In the press conference after the game it was suggested to MON that Villa were yet again going to choke after getting in a good position and he stormed out.

[kippaxvilla2]

Hindsight is a great thing isn't it - in 2006 almost to a person everyone was excited about the arrival.

Where I started to get concerned was the amount he was paying for the likes of Davies, constant counter attacking football at home, the Moscow game - I don't think he or the club realised how much trust went with the fans after that debacle - remember, everyone was encouraged to come to the first leg to create the atmosphere - free flags the works.  Stoke at home was simply awful.  And one other thing that annoyed me was his 11pm transfer day bids for players like Salifou.

[not3bad]

It would be nice to see Villadawg's thoughts on this.

[Dante Lavelli]

When the debate was raging about whether we should keep O'Neill, I was among those saying we should look to replace him.  One of the objections to that was raised by, I think, Dave (from Bath) who said 'how do we know Lerner knows enough about football to appoint a decent replacement?'.  Which, as it turns out, was remarkably prescient.

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, MON would work really well with a DoF.  He does all of the "team" stuff really well - motivation etc - but the long term planning, scouting, developing payers etc he is useless.  Had randy appointed a football man, all of our current problems may never have materialised.  ...MON could have had a production line of scandinavian superstars coming through and if that failed we'd have had a more logical succession plan with regard to the selection of managers.

Sadly there is no way MON would stomach another football man on the board as Niall Quinn would probably testify.

[PeterWithesShin]

I didn't have a problem with him buying Davis, Salifou etc. Salifou cost the club very little, we may as well hammer BFR for Lamptey. And Davis, a similar track record and age to Young, one worked and one didn't. It happens.

What I have more of a problem with is Zat Knight, Shorey, Harewood and so on. Players most people would be able to hazard a guess at that they wouldn't suddenly become world beaters. And 2 defences in 2 seasons. And no foreigners. And shit football. And his pube hair. And triffic. And his punchable face.

[Dave Clark Five]

Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.

[Sexual Ealing]

In retrospect, I think the thing about MON was that the things he was good at managerially (playing on the counter, motivation, team organisation) made up for the failings he had that others have pointed out on this thread already.  So, when he left the faults remained, but his ability to compensate for them did not.

His focus always seemed to be to win the next game, so long term planning his successors could benefit from did not exist.

I still think he was a good manager and did some good things for our club, but it was all short term and unsustainable!

I agree with all that. He definitely seemed the best man for the job for most (all, for me) of his time here.

And he's a clever man, cleverer than most people in football - he's got Law degree, I believe.

[Sexual Ealing]

Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.

What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?

[KevinGage]

To study law to any degree requires an academic, forensic brain. A sharpness to deal with changing information.  And ultimately making conclusions. Conclusions might change as more information becomes available, and a different response might be required. 

Which makes his limited, intermediate approach to the game even more hard to fathom.  He was surely smart enough to know that the game moves on, yet he persisted with two stoppers at the back, the nippy winger and the big man up top. He'll still be doing that in 10 years, should he remain in the game that long.      If he managed to the age of 200, he'd probably see little reason to modify his approach much.

"Fuck it, that'll do,"  is increasingly how it comes across.  Lazy is right. 

[Steve R]

This thread is an interesting read. It does look like the tide is turning when it comes to the wider football's opinion of him. The bit about training is an interesting thing to come out. The number of times post-match threads contained the sentiment 'what do they do at Bodymoor all week'.

There's not much new to say about him, but it's still nice to be able to give it all a good airing every now and then.

There are still a few myths being believed, some repeated on here.

The only newish thing I could throw in is a comparison between the likely ex youth teamers (those that had started to make or had established a first team place) he rejected mostly for peanuts and the expensive replacements he bought in.

Ridgewell
Cahill
Craig Gardner
Steven Davis
Peter Whittingham

Not to mention the 21/22/23 years olds we currently have who would arguably be much better players today had the manager been a little more committed to their development 4/5 years ago.

[eamonn]

Sadly, any of those five - Ridgewell, Cahill, Gardner, Davis and Whitts, would probably improve us right now.

[gnrpoison]

Whatever you think of MON, it is hard not to see the scattergun, wastefulness of his transfer policy.

Take his defensive purchases, for example:

2008-9

Davies £9m
Shorey £4m                                                                                   
Luke Young £5m                                                                                   
Cuellar £8m        

Then, the very next year, he has another go at a defence:

Beye £3m
Warnock £7m
Collins £5m
Dunne £5m                                                                                       

So, one season, £26m on defenders, then the very next season, another £20m on the same defence.

He also bought decent players, yes, Milner, Young, Downing, who we made a profit on, but stop for a moment and think of the folly of almost 50m on defenders in two years, and the impact that will have had on the wage bill.

I had forgotten almost how much was spent on those players in defence, makes it even harder to stomach when he joined the club and injury free our back 4 could have been Delaney, Mellberg, Laursen, Bouma. With Cahill being bedded in to replace one of them. Pity in some way Bouma, Laursen and Delaney had been injured perhaps that money could have been spent getting a good striker to take us to the next level. My own personal thoughts on MON losing it for us was when we drew with Stoke at Villa Park and it seemed when it went to 2-1 the whole of the fans around me were screaming for him to bring Reo Coker on as we were being battered in midfield as our players were tired and it might have added some stability. I also felt it was odd how decent the first 11 was but the squad as a whole was not strong as I remember performances against QPR in the Cup and MSK Zilina which were quite bad having rested players.

[Mister E]

This thread is an interesting read. It does look like the tide is turning when it comes to the wider football's opinion of him. The bit about training is an interesting thing to come out. The number of times post-match threads contained the sentiment 'what do they do at Bodymoor all week'.

There's not much new to say about him, but it's still nice to be able to give it all a good airing every now and then.

There are still a few myths being believed, some repeated on here.

The only newish thing I could throw in is a comparison between the likely ex youth teamers (those that had started to make or had established a first team place) he rejected mostly for peanuts and the expensive replacements he bought in.

Ridgewell
Cahill
Craig Gardner
Steven Davis
Peter Whittingham

Not to mention the 21/22/23 years olds we currently have who would arguably be much better players today had the manager been a little more committed to their development 4/5 years ago.

This is the bit that does my head in - the wasted talent that could have bolstered our team over the last couple of seasons. And the expensive replacements that have cost us.

[eastie]

The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.

Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.

BFR had big money at utd and he blew it.  He did a better job of spending the platt money though and did a decent job at villa.

As for mon , I was ecstatic the day he joined us and delighted the day he left - in between he provoked a mixture. Highs and lows - he did an ok job here but on the money spent he should have done so much better.

A great manager - certainly not!