The end is nigh.

[Bosco81]

For those end of the world fans I have got the following odds from Paddy Power.

Villa to finish bottom 10 6/1
Villa to be relegated 66/1
Villa to finish bottom 225/1

Licence to print money eh !!!

For those a bit more optimistic
Villa to finish top 10 1/14
Villa to finish top 6 15/8
Villa to finish top 4 7/1

For those with more money than sense
Emile to be the leagues top scorer 100/1
Emile to be top english scorer 75/1

[Monty]

My basic point in all of this is that there is no one pathway to the success we crave.  You rightly mention Spurs as varying their tactics and getting 4th, but that does not mean Arsenal were right to go to one extreme as they finished higher, because they also have better players than Spurs.  And for all our talk about where to source your players from, the majority of that Spurs side were bought domestically.

We have achieved a steady 6th place and that is a platfirm upon which to achieve more, but we will not do so by destroying the basis that platform was built on.  Evolution, and not revolution, is the way forward for us.

Most of Spurs' players were bought domestically, but with their superior turnover they can afford to do more of that. Besides, many of them they had from a young age and nurtured them on long contracts, so their wages are lower - something you rightly say we are trying to do now (but weren't necessarily doing before - Nicky Shorey, Emile Heskey, Luke Young and Steve Sidwell are not young players with upward curves ahead of them).

In terms of style, unless, like Barcelona and to a lesser extent Arsenal, you are almost unstoppable at a certain style, of course variety is the crucial element in attack. I would say, however, that we need without a doubt to be closer to the Arsenal end of the spectrum than whatever the other end is (let's say the Stoke end), and that at the moment, we are closer to the Stoke end.

However, I totally agree with your last comment. Like I've said, we have the players to play a more progressive style of football, and a few more to supplement this - Stephen Ireland would work wonders - and we could progress along the road to this more attractive style. As you say, evolution, not revolution.

[Villa'Zawg]

I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.

Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.

This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.

I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.

You seem to have arrived at your opinion as to the cause rather quickly. Having a thought pop into you head doesn't preclude other opinions from being valid.

Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.

I know we rallied at the end of the season, I was talking about more than the last couple of games - more about the way we struggled to break teams down, and to score goals, at home across the course of the season.

I don't understand your comment about precluding other opinions from being valid, so don't really see what you're getting at. Of course other opinions are valid

My point about rationality was just to say that it's a bit weird to think that suddenly we'd turned into a bunch of fans who will get quite so upset about 45 minutes of football in isolation. I know we've got a bit of a downer on ourselves, but that seems to be stretching it to breaking point.

What i was trying to say re half time was that now, a year on, I think it was about more than just 45 minutes, and I did at the time. Nothing more than that.

The comment about precluding other opinions referred to the fact you built your post on Leighton's dismissal of the OP as Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.

I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful, how could it be when you take into account the fact it was by some important  measures i.e. points and placing our best league season in 13 years?

The booing was widely distributed around the ground and appeared to come form individuals and small groups rather than a shared response from all fans or from a particular stand, such as we've seen previously from the Holte End or in the old days, occasionally from the Trinity Rd.

[Concrete John]

As ever, when these things are discussed in depth without arguments breaking out, you find that the actual opinions are not all that far apart!

I've always held the view that the stikers dictate the type of football you play, as thet are the at the fulcrum of any attack and, unless you're playing for a 0-0, vital to everything.  When our main/best striker has tremendous pace, but not necessarily a top footballing brain, is it any wonder we set up to play on the break and get the ball to him quickly?  Stephen ireland is a good point, but I think Robbie Keane would change/improve us more due to the type of striker he is.

[TheSandman]

I think that we do need to blend our style of play. We need to be capable of more direct football as we do manage well BUT also we need to get more passing, movement and flair into the side. A decent winger like Ash is a great weapon to have but we need to move through the centre more. I don't think we need to move to Barca or Arsenal style football but we need to move to a happy medium. With the tools we have at our disposal

I think the best possible way for us to go is the style similar to that utilised by the Germans at the WC. We use our pace for the quick breaks but also when we need to break down teams we need to move through the middle more pass the ball around. I think the point on the strikers is a valid one but equally as important is the midfield. We lack flair and vision in there so someone like Ireland could be used here and also Stan if we redefine his role a bit and bring in a midfield ball winner (Hopefully a more intelligent footballer than NRC).

Even if we do this we still need a bit more intelligence up front.

Anyway, moving back to the main thrust of the thread. In my opinion the end is only nigh depending on how longer the term this will be over. Pretty much everyone agrees that this will be a key season for the marriage of club and manager. It can go either one of two ways and my expectation is that it may well be a slightly more disappointing season than last that will ultimately end in the manager's departure. I'm not saying that is what will happen it is merely my opinion.

[cheltenhamlion]

I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.

Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.

This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.

I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.

You seem to have arrived at your opinion as to the cause rather quickly. Having a thought pop into you head doesn't preclude other opinions from being valid.

Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.

I know we rallied at the end of the season, I was talking about more than the last couple of games - more about the way we struggled to break teams down, and to score goals, at home across the course of the season.

I don't understand your comment about precluding other opinions from being valid, so don't really see what you're getting at. Of course other opinions are valid

My point about rationality was just to say that it's a bit weird to think that suddenly we'd turned into a bunch of fans who will get quite so upset about 45 minutes of football in isolation. I know we've got a bit of a downer on ourselves, but that seems to be stretching it to breaking point.

What i was trying to say re half time was that now, a year on, I think it was about more than just 45 minutes, and I did at the time. Nothing more than that.

The comment about precluding other opinions referred to the fact you built your post on Leighton's dismissal of the OP as Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.

I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful, how could it be when you take into account the fact it was by some important  measures i.e. points and placing our best league season in 13 years?

The booing was widely distributed around the ground and appeared to come form individuals and small groups rather than a shared response from all fans or from a particular stand, such as we've seen previously from the Holte End or in the old days, occasionally from the Trinity Rd.

Come on. Our home form the previous year was poor, the football had been crap to watch at times, we capitulated from a position of strength in third to wriggle into sixth, we were threadbare at the back and having to play an untried kid in Clark.

Then we serve up a performance that suggested that nothing had changed and we were comprehensively outplayed by a side that many suspected wpuld be running it close for relegation. That is why people booed.

[Villa'Zawg]

...
Come on. Our home form the previous year was poor, the football had been crap to watch at times, we capitulated from a position of strength in third to wriggle into sixth, we were threadbare at the back and having to play an untried kid in Clark.

Then we serve up a performance that suggested that nothing had changed and we were comprehensively outplayed by a side that many suspected wpuld be running it close for relegation. That is why people booed.

Clark didn't play, new signings Beye and Delph did.

Our home form the season before could have been better but was similar to the best of any other season since the mid 90s and had the counterbalanced of our best away form in a hundred years. W8 D8 L3 30 points is an ordinary home record but not something that would in itself be considered grounds for booing the team on the opening day of the season when only 0-1 down at HT.

The previous season had ultimately been less then we’d hoped for and the first half performance was pretty dire (against a team who went on to beat Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool) but I doubt any Villa team in history has been boo’d off the pitch at HT in the first game of the season. Something was different.

[pauliewalnuts]

I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful, how could it be when you take into account the fact it was by some important  measures i.e. points and placing our best league season in 13 years?

I didn't say that the season was awful, though, did I.

I said the football at home over the season was pretty poor.

I also don't see the need to raise the Wigan booing repeatedly as some kind of stick to beat ourselves with. Or, indeed, exactly who are we beating with said stick. I say that as one who didn't boo, I never do, I don't see the point.

Incidentally:

I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful

We appear to be saying the same thing. I didn't say it was purely about either the 45 minutes or the previous home season, either.

It was, in my opinion, a season of poor home form, followed by 45 minutes which suggested nothing had changed - ie not entirely one, and not entirely the other.

[KevinGage]

Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.

Would these be the home games v a very poor Hull side who made us hang on for long periods and a dismal Newcastle side who sent themselves down with an OG? Those kind of facts?

Those games- like most of our home form from the turn of the year onwards- were far from convincing. And was reflected in a lower victories total than we've managed even during mediocre seasons. The highest points total and equal highest league position you mention was built largely on our exceptional away form.

For the paying spectator, the bloke who doesn't necessarily travel the country but is a season ticket holder or regular at VP it looked like nothing much had changed from the previous year. I know it's a concept you and a few others seem to struggle with but it really wasn't just about one game.

[Villa'Zawg]

Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.

Would these be the home games v a very poor Hull side who made us hang on for long periods and a dismal Newcastle side who sent themselves down with an OG? Those kind of facts?

Those games- like most of our home form from the turn of the year onwards- were far from convincing. And was reflected in a lower victories total than we've managed even during mediocre seasons. The highest points total and equal highest league position you mention was built largely on our exceptional away form.

For the paying spectator, the bloke who doesn't necessarily travel the country but is a season ticket holder or regular at VP it looked like nothing much had changed from the previous year. I know it's a concept you and a few others seem to struggle with but it really wasn't just about one game.

It was a perfectly ordinary home season regardless of how much anyone wishes to portray it as worse than that.

We took 30 points and only once in the last 13 seasons have we accumulated more than 33 points and that was in the GTII season.

I am one of those blokes who attend most home games and only occasional away games (which is just as well as we nearly always lose when I go to away games). That doesn’t stop me appreciating the away form, which was as you say exceptional, historic even.

It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.

[pauliewalnuts]

It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.

Witchcraft?

Seriously, though, what was at play?

[pauliewalnuts]

It was a perfectly ordinary home season regardless of how much anyone wishes to portray it as worse than that.

We took 30 points and only once in the last 13 seasons have we accumulated more than 33 points and that was in the GTII season.

Thing is, I don't know if you're right on that fact or not, but I'll take your word on it, but despite those stats, i personally found the season previous to that dreadfully boring and predictable to watch. And that season (ie last season) too.

We might have got a reasonable points haul, but - in my subjective opinion - it was absolutely pants to watch, and a chore to sit through for long spells.

I don't know if the booers were thinking the same, but they were clearly unhappy about something. As you've said yourself you don't think it was just the previous 45 minutes, what else could it have been?

[phantom limb]

I was at the Wigan game and we got booed off at half time because we were fucking shit, there was no hidden agenda behind it. We'd had a good pre-season that culminated in incredible ineptitude against opponents that we really should have taken to the cleaners.

[Risso]

The booing at the Wigan first half performance was simply a gut reaction to a dire 45 minutes of football, a less than fantastic end to the previous system, and possibly a poor team selection by O'Neill.

Rightly or wrongly, that's what it was.  Supporters don't sit there working out the home stats for the last 10 years.  They react to what they see on the pitch.  We don't get chants like "John Carew, Carew, at 6'4" he's taller than the mean height for UK adult males of 5'10", whch probably includes me and you."

[pauliewalnuts]

We took 30 points and only once in the last 13 seasons have we accumulated more than 33 points and that was in the GTII season.

Having checked, that is truly excellent spin, VD.

What does 33 points have to do with it?

We took 30 points. Not 33.

The booing against Wigan was the first game of the 2009/10 season, and followed the 2008/9 season.

2008/9 - 30 points

As reference, by comparison

2007/8 - 33 points
2006/7 - 29 points
2005/6 - 24 points
2004/5 - 30 points
2003/4 - 33 points
2002/3 - 35 points - for a team which finished 16th.
2001/2 - 31 points
2000/1 - 32 points
1999/0 - 32 points
1998/9 - 33 points

So, actually, we'd only score fewer points twice in the preceeding ten years. We also didn't have a billionaire benefactor pumping in money for most of those years, either.