Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Dave Clark Five on August 02, 2010, 01:09:27 AM
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O'Neill is now out of favour with a high percentage of fans. I understand that he has a bad relationship with the press. His coaching staff, apart from reserves and youth, are useless. Time for him to go.
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Might just be my favourite title to a thread ever.
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It is good. Also, is this the earliest anybody has called for a managers head in the season? We at least waited till Wigan had turned us over before we all panicked last term.
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It is good. Also, is this the earliest anybody has called for a managers head in the season? We at least waited till Wigan had turned us over before we all panicked last term.
Pre-emptive reactions? Well, it's one idea.
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
Yeah, supporters like my mates Ecker and Mozza from on here I'd imagine. These are men in need of prozac. They laughed at me on the tram in Vienna when I told him we’d put three past Liverpool.
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
what was their reaction the day before I wonder?
I'm not saying there's not dissent, but it's hardly as if the fans who travelled on a pre-season piss up to Portugal represent any balanced sample on the day of defeat in a friendly versus a Champions League team that just won their league again.
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O'Neill is now out of favour with a high percentage of fans....
No he isn't.
Edit: would you like to poll it?
Edit: that's a ridiculously self-important thread title.
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
what was their reaction the day before I wonder?
I'm not saying there's not dissent, but it's hardly as if the fans who travelled on a pre-season piss up to Portugal represent any balanced sample on the day of defeat in a friendly versus a Champions League team that just won their league again.
Just the ones who could be bothered to travel, which is usually quite important in deciding who 'real' fans are, when it suits.
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
what was their reaction the day before I wonder?
I'm not saying there's not dissent, but it's hardly as if the fans who travelled on a pre-season piss up to Portugal represent any balanced sample on the day of defeat in a friendly versus a Champions League team that just won their league again.
Just the ones who could be bothered to travel, which is usually quite important in deciding who 'real' fans are, when it suits.
I'm not dismissing their "importance" for being able to travel to a pre-season friendly. I certainly didn't think you'd ever go down the "better fan" road, Dave because that's what it appears you're suggesting.
What I am disputing is that it represents any kind of true fan sample, or indeed a high percentage of Villa fans. There's absolutely no way of validating that except for the select group of supporters DC5 happened to speak to and shared coversation and opinions after a pre-season FRIENDLY loss to a far superior team.
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O'Neill is now out of favour with a high percentage of fans....
No he isn't.
Edit: would you like to poll it?
Edit: that's a ridiculously self-important thread title.
You know it's true.
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I'm not dismissing their "importance" for being able to travel to a pre-season friendly. I certainly didn't think you'd ever go down the "better fan" road, Dave because that's what it appears you're suggesting.
He’s not, he’s being ironical innit. But I don’t think it really applies to you, as I doubt you’ve ever used it, with respect, given you obviously not being a tit and also living in Toronto. Although if you do follow The Villa home and away I will say you’re in the top one of dedicated Villa fans.
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Shall we just say that all fifteen at our table tonight dislike O'Neill. A small percentage cheered him. He is not popular.
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
what was their reaction the day before I wonder?
I'm not saying there's not dissent, but it's hardly as if the fans who travelled on a pre-season piss up to Portugal represent any balanced sample on the day of defeat in a friendly versus a Champions League team that just won their league again.
Again? They've won their league twice in the last 15 years.
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the opinion of fans that have been following the Villa home and away for the last 40 years.
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I'm not dismissing their "importance" for being able to travel to a pre-season friendly. I certainly didn't think you'd ever go down the "better fan" road, Dave because that's what it appears you're suggesting.
He’s not, he’s being ironical innit. But I don’t think it really applies to you, as I doubt you’ve ever used it, with respect, given you obviously not being a tit and also living in Toronto. Although if you do follow The Villa home and away I will say you’re in the top one of dedicated Villa fans.
I have tremendous respect for those fans who happen to travel with the club. I used to do it myself when I lived in Birmingham. I don't think for second though that their views or opinions are any more important than those who do not, or cannot travel. Which is why I'll contest the "high percentage" comment.
In any case, these things will play themselves out this season in my opinion. If the results aren't there, or the home gates begin to slide, then the writing will be on the wall. I happen to think this is a massive year for MON, and if certain things don't improve in certain areas then I think change is inevitable.
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Shall we just say that all fifteen at our table tonight dislike O'Neill. A small percentage cheered him. He is not popular.
And? I’m in a minority of one amongst the group I travel with when it comes to liking O’Neill.
Its all about arseholes and opinions though isn't it?
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The "do you go?" card is often played, and I think it's nonsense, especially for a pre-season friendly. But you have to accept that there is nowhere in the world at this moment where so many hardcore Villa supporters are gathered as there is in Portugal, and if a lot of them are disenchanted with the manager that has to be taken into account as a worrying sign.
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In any case, these things will play themselves out this season in my opinion. If the results aren't there, or the home gates begin to slide, then the writing will be on the wall. I happen to think this is a massive year for MON, and if certain things don't improve in certain areas then I think change is inevitable.
Agreed but I think he'll be gone by the end of the season. It's not a question of 'if' but 'when'.
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
what was their reaction the day before I wonder?
I'm not saying there's not dissent, but it's hardly as if the fans who travelled on a pre-season piss up to Portugal represent any balanced sample on the day of defeat in a friendly versus a Champions League team that just won their league again.
Again? They've won their league twice in the last 15 years.
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the opinion of fans that have been following the Villa home and away for the last 40 years.
I didn't stress the word "again" did I? I am correct that they won it again, just like we would have mentioned winning the League Cup "again" had we done so last season. Their still one the most famous teams in Europe, and historically the best team in Portugese history.
I haven't for one second dismissed their views. You've jumped to that conclusion yourself. What I am contesting is that represent a fair sample or indeed a high percentage of anything.
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The "do you go?" card is often played, and I think it's nonsense, especially for a pre-season friendly. But you have to accept that there is nowhere in the world at this moment where so many hardcore Villa supporters are gathered as there is in Portugal, and if a lot of them are disenchanted with the manager that has to be taken into account as a worrying sign.
Dave, I won't argue that at all. But it still doesn't represent a high percentage, as much as us internet warriors stand for much more than this is our opinion on the world of Villa. I might take this a little more seriously has we started the season badly, that this was a Europa League game, and we were playing mundane football on top of it all. I just cannot take emotional opinons seriously, because that same group would not have been anywhere near as vociferous yesterday.
Like I was saying to Mark, I think this is massive year for the current management team at Villa. I think that the board want to grow the global Villa "brand" faster than MON is allowing for. 4 years has given us stability, but there needs to be some end product.
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Sorry TV, it's just the way I read it. Fortunately Benfica have been crap for so long, using the word "again" is almost like saying Accrington Stanley have won the league again. Well not quite but almost.
How you go about getting a balanced sample is anybody's guess.
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I'm not dismissing their "importance" for being able to travel to a pre-season friendly. I certainly didn't think you'd ever go down the "better fan" road, Dave because that's what it appears you're suggesting.
He’s not, he’s being ironical innit. But I don’t think it really applies to you, as I doubt you’ve ever used it, with respect, given you obviously not being a tit and also living in Toronto. Although if you do follow The Villa home and away I will say you’re in the top one of dedicated Villa fans.
I have tremendous respect for those fans who happen to travel with the club. I used to do it myself when I lived in Birmingham. I don't think for second though that their views or opinions are any more important than those who do not, or cannot travel. Which is why I'll contest the "high percentage" comment.
In any case, these things will play themselves out this season in my opinion. If the results aren't there, or the home gates begin to slide, then the writing will be on the wall. I happen to think this is a massive year for MON, and if certain things don't improve in certain areas then I think change is inevitable.
Just for the record, I did not say that my opinions were more important than anyone elses, regardless of how the cantankerous VillaDawg sees it.
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In any case, these things will play themselves out this season in my opinion. If the results aren't there, or the home gates begin to slide, then the writing will be on the wall. I happen to think this is a massive year for MON, and if certain things don't improve in certain areas then I think change is inevitable.
Agreed but I think he'll be gone by the end of the season. It's not a question of 'if' but 'when'.
You may well be right, and he may not have to be pushed either. I've stated before that I'm no longer sure that MON is the manager to take us forward, but he was the perfect choice at the time of his arrival. In the process of evolution he may have run his course, but I'm willing to be proved wrong.
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Sorry TV, it's just the way I read it. Fortunately Benfica have been crap for so long, using the word "again" is almost like saying Accrington Stanley have won the league again. Well not quite but almost.
How you go about getting a balanced sample is anybody's guess.
Not sure you can Mark because this game naturally creates strong opinions and bias. But I think taking the opinion of fans after a heavy defeat would be the furthest thing from balanced.
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I'm not dismissing their "importance" for being able to travel to a pre-season friendly. I certainly didn't think you'd ever go down the "better fan" road, Dave because that's what it appears you're suggesting.
He’s not, he’s being ironical innit. But I don’t think it really applies to you, as I doubt you’ve ever used it, with respect, given you obviously not being a tit and also living in Toronto. Although if you do follow The Villa home and away I will say you’re in the top one of dedicated Villa fans.
I have tremendous respect for those fans who happen to travel with the club. I used to do it myself when I lived in Birmingham. I don't think for second though that their views or opinions are any more important than those who do not, or cannot travel. Which is why I'll contest the "high percentage" comment.
In any case, these things will play themselves out this season in my opinion. If the results aren't there, or the home gates begin to slide, then the writing will be on the wall. I happen to think this is a massive year for MON, and if certain things don't improve in certain areas then I think change is inevitable.
Just for the record, I did not say that my opinions were more important than anyone elses, regardless of how the cantankerous VillaDawg sees it.
No sweat mate. I know you didn't.
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Funny when you think about it that the only boring part of Martin is the football we play. Doesn't match his personality somehow.
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Is our football really that boring ? Im not saying we are the most entertaining team in the country but to me Ive seen much more boring Villa teams.
The years with the most hated manager ever were just a disgrace, I remember little entertaining during John Gregorys time outside of Merson, and if ever a manager fashioned teams that were the antithesis of his own playing style then it was Brian Little.
Yes we are a bit predictable making it sometimes hard to break teams down and if we are ever to make the next step this needs to be addressed. But we play with speed and we play with width, when its working that gets me off my seat during the game.
Its a bit unfashionable these days to say you are reasonably happy with someone or something, but right at this moment in time and for the whole time he has been here I have been happy with Martin ONeill as our manager.
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Yes andy I think our football is boring, especially at home we are one dimensional, cannot seem to vary our game and have no real plan except get it out wide .
O neill is too old school and the modern game has changed but he seems stuck in a timewarp, his tactics, team selections and lack of substitutions are dubious to say the least and he seems a rather prickly character who doesn't like being criticised or questioned.
His transfer dealings are very hit and miss and he seems to have his favourites, I do not think things are great behind the scenes and I believe it is only a matter of time before his reign ends at our club-certainly worth a bet on the 1st manager to go this season.
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Now Hughes has taken Fulham it would be interesting to see who would replace him, though I would think Jol would find us more difficult to resist if we wanted a more progressive manager.
The most interesting thing is the article in the Telegraph where he has inadvertently admitted he has no control over the transfer of Milner now. That is a significant change in the running of the club for the first time since he has been manager. He will feel the squeeze if we start poorly, and it will be his own fault.
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I know a few who are in Portugal and I would say the majority of them are not happy with MON. I find it a bit odd as most of our better performances are away from home which would appease them you would think.
A lot of it stems from the Moscow thing and especially the alleged arrogance showed by MON in his speech at the 'lets make up' dinner afterwards when I gather he effectively dismissed anyone elses opinion on how to run our club.
The Europe thing annoys them in as much as they are very commited fans who enjoy their trips away and can't understand why MON would throw away an opportunity for more by playing weak sides. A lot of people went to Prague Hamburg etc and haven't really forgiven him.
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Villa are still an attractive club and the likes of jol, Eriksson and klinnsman would probably all be interested along with plenty others.
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Good post andrew 08 , yes the Moscow debacle was where it began to go wrong for mon- a shocking mistake having played so many games to get that far and toss it away like that.
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Villa are still an attractive club and the likes of jol, Eriksson and klinnsman would probably all be interested along with plenty others.
No thanks.
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Couldn't believe it when I woke up to this thread title.How different from the optimism 24 hours ago.I wonder if the Shitty fans are calling for Mancinis head after their piss poor pre season and Spurs fans for Harry after they were walloped by Villarreal.Surely at least we can wait til the season actually starts until the knives come out.I feel quite depressed now :(
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
A few of us have been saying it for a year or more now. Sounds like we were given a proper footballing lesson last night.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
it smacks of people acting like spoilt children, the internet age through forums and the such like has developed these kinds of things.
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Does anyone really think those people DCF is talking about have formed that opinion after one pre season friendly?
I'm imagining not.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
it smacks of people acting like spoilt children, the internet age through forums and the such like has developed these kinds of things.
It smacks of people having an opinion that's different to yours. How anybody could accuse DCF, a person who probably spends more time and money following Villa than anybody else on here of being "spoilt" beggars belief. Spoilt by what? The exciting signings and scintillating football?
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It's also from someone who is out in Portugal, so has been listening to supporters for the past few days.
what was their reaction the day before I wonder?
I'm not saying there's not dissent, but it's hardly as if the fans who travelled on a pre-season piss up to Portugal represent any balanced sample on the day of defeat in a friendly versus a Champions League team that just won their league again.
Just the ones who could be bothered to travel, which is usually quite important in deciding who 'real' fans are, when it suits.
Could be bothered?
Or perhaps those who can afford to throw a few hundred quid at meaningless friendlies?
Edit: Misunderstood Dave's intention.
I don't think 15 people at a table really tramslates to "O'Neill is now out of favour with a high percentage of fans".
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
it smacks of people acting like spoilt children, the internet age through forums and the such like has developed these kinds of things.
It smacks of people having an opinion that's different to yours. How anybody could accuse DCF, a person who probably spends more time and money following Villa than anybody else on here of being "spoilt" beggars belief. Spoilt by what? The exciting signings and scintillating football?
The same fans who the previous night were singing MON's name clearly, even over the duff internet stream I had ?
thats f1ckle.
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the peole who are in Portugal to see the Villa, are supporters who you would think would try and see the best side of all things Villa,
they are so interested in whats going on at VP that they choose to spend there sumer holidays following the side, so they aint part timers thats for sure.
if DC5 says most are pissed of with MON then thats significant in my view, and if MON has lost the support of these type of supporters then it will be downhill from here.
as for me i'm in Torquay, and the last thing on my mind was our result against Bohemians, untill i poped on here,
so does that mean that i'm less of a supporter, and my views are worth less,
to right it does,
i dont follow Villa like i used to or like those guys in portugal, full respect to them,
i would take there oppinions over many on here including myself.
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After D'OL left, we needed some pride and passion restored. We needed to get some stability into our squad and plan for the future. With Randy buying in, we needed a 'name' manager to take us forward as a 'brand' (sorry).
MoN was the right man at the right time.
Sadly, I believe the time has finished. He's shown that he's very capable of putting a team out that can beat a team of equal ability. He's also shown that when the chips are down against better sides, he's utterly clueless.
Thanks for everything, Martin, you were what we were crying out for but now we need a modern manager/coach combination to take us into the next stage.
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D Post
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T Post
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Does anyone really think those people DCF is talking about have formed that opinion after one pre season friendly?
I'm imagining not.
Well, I heard O'Neill's name sang very loudly during the Feyenoord game. Perhaps these people went home.
I'd also like to counter his "12 people around our table" by saying that out of everyone who goes to the Villa with me, I'm probably one of the least happy with O'Neill and I'm far from wanting him out.
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I wanted MON to go at the end of last season.
He will take us no further.
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Good post andrew 08 , yes the Moscow debacle was where it began to go wrong for mon- a shocking mistake having played so many games to get that far and toss it away like that.
I agree that the Moscow thing was probably a turning point in most fans opinions of him, but I think it's wrong to call it a mistake. It was a decision he had to balance based upon an unexpectedly high league position. Had he gone the other way and Gabby and/or Ash had gotten injured on an artificial pitch in the middle of winter, during a game we were probably unlikely to win anyway, and then we had that slump there would still be people slagging him for getting it wrong. As it goes the problem for the league wasn't Moscow, it was that ridiculous draw at home to Stoke in the next game.
As to is time up for O'Neill, I'd say he'll be here the whole of next season as I simply can't see us having bad enough results that would force Randy to pull the trigger. I think that what he needs is something to get the fans that have turned back on side. Be it a signing that makes people sit up and take notice, a fantastic start results wise or a change to formation that shows something different. If we're here having the same discussions in 2011, then maybe it would be best for all if we did part ways and allow the club to try soemthing different.
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After D'OL left, we needed some pride and passion restored. We needed to get some stability into our squad and plan for the future. With Randy buying in, we needed a 'name' manager to do all of this and to take us forward as a 'brand' (sorry).
MoN was the right man at the right time.
Sadly, I believe the time has finished. He's shown that he's very capable of putting a team out that can beat a team of equal ability. He's also shown that when the chips are down against better sides, he's utterly clueless.
Thanks for everything, Martin, you were what we were crying out for but now we need a modern manager/coach combination to take us into the next stage.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
Agree on both counts!
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If they were going to sack him (or not renew his contract) surely they would have done that at the end of the season.
Even if we did make a change I don't think a new manager would be given any money either, I don't think the money is there anymore. Some of the fringe players MON signed aren't going anywhere because no one else will pay them what we are paying them; it is the very reason they signed in the first place.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
it smacks of people acting like spoilt children, the internet age through forums and the such like has developed these kinds of things.
It smacks of people having an opinion that's different to yours. How anybody could accuse DCF, a person who probably spends more time and money following Villa than anybody else on here of being "spoilt" beggars belief. Spoilt by what? The exciting signings and scintillating football?
The same fans who the previous night were singing MON's name clearly, even over the duff internet stream I had ?
thats f1ckle.
No, that's you assuming it's the same fans. You could hear DCF singing over your internet stream could you?
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After D'OL left, we needed some pride and passion restored. We needed to get some stability into our squad and plan for the future. With Randy buying in, we needed a 'name' manager to do all of this and to take us forward as a 'brand' (sorry).
MoN was the right man at the right time.
Sadly, I believe the time has finished. He's shown that he's very capable of putting a team out that can beat a team of equal ability. He's also shown that when the chips are down against better sides, he's utterly clueless.
Thanks for everything, Martin, you were what we were crying out for but now we need a modern manager/coach combination to take us into the next stage.
Given our results against the 'big 4' and inability at home against weaker sides, I'd say that's the other way around if anything!
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No, that's you assuming it's the same fans. You could hear DCF singing over your internet stream could you?
It's being suggested that most people in Portugal want him out.
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We can only hope the end is nigh.
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No, that's you assuming it's the same fans. You could hear DCF singing over your internet stream could you?
It's being suggested that most people in Portugal want him out.
I would suggest that the same people who watched Saturday were the same ones who went Sunday. Of course they know how hot and humid it was and playing two games in 24 hours would have took it out
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I wanted MON to go at the end of last season.
He will take us no further.
Unless Randy decides he doesn't want to treat Villa as a business, no one will be able to take us further. Modern football is all about turnover, we can not compete with other clubs in the league and we never will.
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Good point Arsey.
If a new Manager was to come in what would he be given ?
Looking at it in a doom and gloom way, it's like Randy has wagered everything on MON delivering and he hasn't.
We are probably in a worse position now than at this time last season.
I was slightly envious when Fulham took Hughes on - I think he can get teams playing football and he's not used to having wads of cash.
Well the latter isn't quite true, but it was only a fleeting visit to Coutts.
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After D'OL left, we needed some pride and passion restored. We needed to get some stability into our squad and plan for the future. With Randy buying in, we needed a 'name' manager to do all of this and to take us forward as a 'brand' (sorry).
MoN was the right man at the right time.
Sadly, I believe the time has finished. He's shown that he's very capable of putting a team out that can beat a team of equal ability. He's also shown that when the chips are down against better sides, he's utterly clueless.
Thanks for everything, Martin, you were what we were crying out for but now we need a modern manager/coach combination to take us into the next stage.
Given our results against the 'big 4' and inability at home against weaker sides, I'd say that's the other way around if anything!
Didn't we beat Liverpool, Man United and Chelsea at the start of last season? I think we did pretty well against the perceived big 4 last season.
Our away form was also excellent. What was disappointing was our inability to break sides down at home who came and played more defensively.
The problem was exacerbated in the final third of the season because the players were knackered. So sides sat back, waited until the players were burnt out and then went for us. West Ham (at VP) almost did this to perfection.
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I was slightly envious when Fulham took Hughes on - I think he can get teams playing football and he's not used to having wads of cash.
Apart from his last job, where he had more than any other manager ever.
Edit: Just seen your final sentence.
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I think the europhia that started when Mo'N Arrived and Randy bought the club made us all think we would be one of the top teams again in the next few years. The rise in the first couple of seasons was great, due to the low point we were starting from. However i think we were always going to plateau out for a season or 2 and thats where we are now. Shoudl Martin go? Have the fans had enough? Well his name was being sung at the bescot the other night, and it seemed to be by the majority. I'm not in Portugal so can't comment, but watching the game last night I felt gutted, even though it was a pre season friendly! I do wonder with the internet and the constant news about the all things football, we read too much into a game that contained half fit players and a make shift team.
Martin is far from perfect and at times winds me up ( the Luke Young situation for one) But we were in contention for top 4 until the end of the City game last season, 2 trips to wembley..to say progress hasn't been made year on year is debateable. I think it has been. I do think the milner situation could be a clioud hanging over eberybody and although I hoped he would stay I now think the release of that money and some new faces may be the best bet.
Finally I think most of us on the forum have a slightly different view to the average fan who turns up on match dayl I would suggest that a good majority of them are still happy with Mr O'neil and many wouldnt even realise we had played a game last night let alone be worried about the performance.
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Good post Liam and a very balanced summing up I feel. You are right about us not being a very representative cross-section of fans. In fact, that is one of the best things about H and V and even more noticeable if you meet up with fellow H and Vers at matches. We are not 'your average fans' in most cases which might sound slightly elitist and superior but it's true....well in most cases!
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But we were in contention for top 4 until the end of the City game last season, 2 trips to wembley..to say progress hasn't been made year on year is debateable.
If a team of similar stature to ourselves, such as Everton, had the season that we had just had, and their fans wanted Moyes out because of them playing boring football, I'd be calling them ungrateful.
Regarding an earlier post saying that the fans in Portugal are obviously the more dedicated fans, isn't that what DOL said? (winky thing)
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agree with pretty much all of liams post and put myself in the mon staying until he wants to leave camp as we are still progressing,however slowly.Get the feeling that if we go backwards this year in anyway he will leave by his own accord and he will leave with my grateful thanks.
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You also have to take into account that we're in the silly season. Once the transfer window is closed and we get down to playing proper games then there are more concrete things to worry about instead of all this naval gazing that we get at the moment (where every tiny rumour and soundbite is analysed to the nth degree) is replaced by a proper discussion on football.
How the team do next season will decide the future of the manager anything else is just idle chat.
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Quite true.
There are many ways to judge a manager, but surely the most important is results?
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Does anyone really think those people DCF is talking about have formed that opinion after one pre season friendly?
I'm imagining not.
Haven't man City got battered in nearly all of their games? I don't read too much into friendlies as im sure most of us don't but looking at the threads in the pre season friendly bit we were poor again.
My opinion of MON has been dropping for a while, I will judge us when the season starts but im not getting myself excited that's for sure
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I'm not disappointed in last nights performance I think it was expected. We blatantly need to strengthen areas of the team and we're in exactly the same situation as every preseason.
Ten days till kick off and we're getting ready for the new season with players who rarely played at the top level and even somebody who was playing in the championship. No sign of new blood unless he can get rid of the players who cost huge sums of cash now deemed not good enough.
I would've been happier if he'd walked at the end of last season. I'd gladly give up 6th place and two semi finals to watch some good football, at the end of the day sport is still meant to be entertaining.
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I dont think the end is nigh at all.
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We have probably got him for one more season so we have to get on with it and get behind MON and the team. But I for one am bored and frustrated by the man.
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Good post andrew 08 , yes the Moscow debacle was where it began to go wrong for mon- a shocking mistake having played so many games to get that far and toss it away like that.
Things haven't been quite the same since then. That's when my opinion of MON took a knock.
However, I think he's a good manager and there's no point calling for him to be sacked when we have finished top six three seasons in a row.
Don't get me wrong, he frustrates me the majority of the time, I just think he needs another season. I'd hate to think he'd leave us and finally 'crack it' at another premiership club. I'd rather he 'cracked it' with us.
However, he needs to overcome his obsession with wing play, buying UK and Ireland based players and to learn to make our tactics adapt more to different types of games.
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Good post andrew 08 , yes the Moscow debacle was where it began to go wrong for mon- a shocking mistake having played so many games to get that far and toss it away like that.
Things haven't been quite the same since then. That's when my opinion of MON took a knock.
However, I think he's a good manager and there's no point calling for him to be sacked when we have finished top six three seasons in a row.
Don't get me wrong, he frustrates me the majority of the time, I just think he needs another season. I'd hate to think he'd leave us and finally 'crack it' at another premiership club. I'd rather he 'cracked it' with us.
However, he needs to overcome his obsession with wing play, buying UK and Ireland based players and to learn to make our tactics adapt more to different types of games.
He's one of the stubbornest men involved in football and at 58 I don't think theres any chance of change.
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Too right I'm cantankerous, I'm fed up to the back teeth.
If someone had suggested that our 4th season would see us finishing above Liverpool, reaching the FA Cup semi-final and the League Cup final, they woudnt have been believed. People ike to portray it as a symptom of liverpool being unusually poor last season but 64 points and good cup runs was exactly what was needed to catch up with the traditional Sky4.
Now that we've reached that level, it seems the same people who said O'Neil couldn't get us to that level are now insisting that this is as good as it can possibly get and acting as though their opinion is a statement of fact.
Randy is the ony person who is going to make a decision on MON and its clear that he is backing him for next sesson. What is the point of focussing sooooo much attention on it?
How about we try to avoid creating the same poisonous atmosphere for West Ham that we created for Wigan. How about if we actualy go into this season giving the team our full unreserved support and give this ridicuous Martin O'Neill soap opera a fecking rest.
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He's one of the stubbornest men involved in football and at 58 I don't think theres any chance of change.
In terms of style of play, he's all about playing to the team's strengths. I think any tactical change for 2010/2011 will be dependent on who we sign this summer. Players like Keane and Ireland would mean a change to the way we play.
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Good post andrew 08 , yes the Moscow debacle was where it began to go wrong for mon- a shocking mistake having played so many games to get that far and toss it away like that.
Things haven't been quite the same since then. That's when my opinion of MON took a knock.
However, I think he's a good manager and there's no point calling for him to be sacked when we have finished top six three seasons in a row.
Don't get me wrong, he frustrates me the majority of the time, I just think he needs another season. I'd hate to think he'd leave us and finally 'crack it' at another premiership club. I'd rather he 'cracked it' with us.
However, he needs to overcome his obsession with wing play, buying UK and Ireland based players and to learn to make our tactics adapt more to different types of games.
He's one of the stubbornest men involved in football and at 58 I don't think theres any chance of change.
I tend to agree. However, he has brought us to three top six finishes, would another top six finish this season be such a bad thing? I think he should go if we finish outside the top six this season.
That would represent regression and prove , as many suspect, that he's just not going to take us to the next level.
I was hoping he would freshen things up a bit more in the window but there's another month for him to do that I guess.
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Too right I'm cantankerous, I'm fed up to the back teeth.
If someone had suggested that our 4th season would see us finishing above Liverpool, reaching the FA Cup semi-final and the League Cup final, they woudnt have been believed. People ike to portray it as a symptom of liverpool being unusually poor last season but 64 points and good cup runs was exactly what was needed to catch up with the traditional Sky4.
If you'd told me that after four years, we'd still be playing central defenders at right back, and would have Emile Heskey on £60K a week, I wouldn't have believed you either.
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Good post andrew 08 , yes the Moscow debacle was where it began to go wrong for mon- a shocking mistake having played so many games to get that far and toss it away like that.
Things haven't been quite the same since then. That's when my opinion of MON took a knock.
However, I think he's a good manager and there's no point calling for him to be sacked when we have finished top six three seasons in a row.
Don't get me wrong, he frustrates me the majority of the time, I just think he needs another season. I'd hate to think he'd leave us and finally 'crack it' at another premiership club. I'd rather he 'cracked it' with us.
However, he needs to overcome his obsession with wing play, buying UK and Ireland based players and to learn to make our tactics adapt more to different types of games.
He's one of the stubbornest men involved in football and at 58 I don't think theres any chance of change.
I tend to agree. However, he has brought us to three top six finishes, would another top six finish this season be such a bad thing? I think he should go if we finish outside the top six this season.
That would represent regression and prove , as many suspect, that he's just not going to take us to the next level.
I was hoping he would freshen things up a bit more in the window but there's another month for him to do that I guess.
I appreciate the league position but there is nothing to suggest we can do any better than sixth. People can try and dress up the football all they want but it really isn't very entertaining.........
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Our focus should be on what has been delivered, as in league position, cups progress and Euro qualification, and not how he's gone about doing it.
I know it won't be, but it should.
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Does anyone really think those people DCF is talking about have formed that opinion after one pre season friendly?
I'm imagining not.
Well, I heard O'Neill's name sang very loudly during the Feyenoord game. Perhaps these people went home.
I'd also like to counter his "12 people around our table" by saying that out of everyone who goes to the Villa with me, I'm probably one of the least happy with O'Neill and I'm far from wanting him out.
I'm not drawing any conclusions from what he said, or making any comment about whether the majority of fans there want the manager out, not at all.
I'm just pointing out - in reply to the people talking about "people wanting him out after one pre-season friendly" - that those people who do want him out, regardless of whether they're right or wrong or we agree with them or not, are hardly likely to have decided that on the basis of one pre-season game.
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If someone had suggested that our 4th season would see us finishing above Liverpool, reaching the FA Cup semi-final and the League Cup final, they woudnt have been believed. People ike to portray it as a symptom of liverpool being unusually poor last season but 64 points and good cup runs was exactly what was needed to catch up with the traditional Sky4.
Except that four years ago people were talking about us challenging for the Champions League in this timescale. Not challenging for qualification, challenging to win it, so your attempt at re-writing history has failed again. And instead of your irrelevant 'finishing above Liverpool' and the even more irrelevant 'we got more points' how about another one? What would the same mythical people have said about finishing three places above Birmingham City?
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I'd be interested to see the results of a poll asking "Are you excited by the Villa?" I think there'd be a fair few in the 'NO' section.
I absolutely love the start of a new season but not this year. Almost regardless of who we buy or who we sell, it'll be utterly predictable stuff. 4-4-2, CB at RB, RB at LB get the ball to Ashley Young, get the ball to Ashley Young, get the ball to Ashley Young, Petrov knackered after 70 mins, Heskey on at 72 mins to turn the game around, where's plan 'B', Oh, there is no plan 'B'.......
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I tend to agree. However, he has brought us to three top six finishes, would another top six finish this season be such a bad thing? I think he should go if we finish outside the top six this season.
I actually disagree.
There's really not a whole heap of difference between finishing 6th and 7th or 8th.
In fact, I would swap 6th for 8th right now if I thought we could play a bit of football next season.
As it happens, I suspect what will happen is that we'll swap 6th for 8th or so (it is going to be harder this season) but play exactly the same sort of football as we have the last two eyars.
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Except that four years ago people were talking about us challenging for the Champions League in this timescale. Not challenging for qualification, challenging to win it,
Who said that?
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Except that four years ago people were talking about us challenging for the Champions League in this timescale. Not challenging for qualification, challenging to win it,
Who said that?
Just about everyone. If I remember right IMG were going to sign us the players to make it happen.
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I think as many have said here at the time M'ON was the right man and I think he has reached his glass ceiling with us now. I don't know if someone else could do better, but I'd like to see if they could. I'm just kind of jaded in terms of the predictability of the football, the lack of ability to change tactics and the extremely narrow minded approach to transfers. I just think it's time for a change.
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I say stick with him because we are progressing season on season he will get it right in the end.
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I say stick with him because we are progressing season on season he will get it right in the end.
hes not going to get the funds he had before now, and I must admit the footballs got worse..
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Although MON frustrates the hell out of me at times, and I can't understand some of his decisions such as who plays RB, we have made progress each season since he came.
What worries me is what would happen if he left. Which players would go with him, and who would come in as a replacement manager? There are plenty of managers who I'd hate to see arrive who might just want to come!
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Anybody over the centuries who have proclaimed that "The End is Nigh" have all been wrong.
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Although MON frustrates the hell out of me at times, and I can't understand some of his decisions such as who plays RB, we have made progress each season since he came.
What worries me is what would happen if he left. Which players would go with him, and who would come in as a replacement manager? There are plenty of managers who I'd hate to see arrive who might just want to come!
I don't think there's any player who we'd want to keep but would rather follow Martin, not least because he would never get a better job than Villa.
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I dont remember one person saying we'd challenge for the Champions League. Not that it didn't happen, just that I dont recall it at all. Getting there was a tough ask as far as I was concerned. Still is.
And why wouldn't using contacts at IMG help? How do we know they haven't? They probably helped us score the Nike deal anyway. In fact I'm sure of it.
It was a fair enough assumption at the time.
Maybe MON had access to the World wide web but went shopping at the corner shop down the road instead. I dont recall anybody saying that would happen at the time either.
I remember some saying that we should have sold to Padfield and Co who hasnt been seen or heard of since in Football. Maybe we dodged a fatal bullet on that one? A lot of things are said and dragged up to be ridiculed again at a later date.
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I remember some saying that we should have sold to Padfield and Co who hasnt been seen or heard of since in Football. Maybe we dodged a fatal bullet on that one? A lot of things are said and dragged up to be ridiculed again at a later date.
I can remember people saying we should talk to them. I don't think anybody suggested selling to them.
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I remember some saying that we should have sold to Padfield and Co who hasnt been seen or heard of since in Football. Maybe we dodged a fatal bullet on that one? A lot of things are said and dragged up to be ridiculed again at a later date.
I can remember people saying we should talk to them. I don't think anybody suggested selling to them.
We (Doug) did talk to them, didn't we? We talked to all the parties involved as I recall. Anyway, it's not really important now.
Dont make me drag Mr Swann out of retirement.
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I don't think that Ellis did talk to Padfield actually. And as far as I recall, Disco Stu was one of the posters who was most vehemently opposed to padfield.
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Too right I'm cantankerous, I'm fed up to the back teeth.
If someone had suggested that our 4th season would see us finishing above Liverpool, reaching the FA Cup semi-final and the League Cup final, they woudnt have been believed.
When Randy took over this was somewhere near the pessimistic end of most people's predictions. Including yours if I recall.
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Too right I'm cantankerous, I'm fed up to the back teeth.
If someone had suggested that our 4th season would see us finishing above Liverpool, reaching the FA Cup semi-final and the League Cup final, they wouldn't have been believed. People like to portray it as a symptom of liverpool being unusually poor last season but 64 points and good cup runs was exactly what was needed to catch up with the traditional Sky4.
If you'd told me that after four years, we'd still be playing central defenders at right back, and would have Emile Heskey on £60K a week, I wouldn't have believed you either.
How surprising. A response that ignores the point, slags off an aspect of the club (our payers) and is built on an internet falsehood.
Cuellar was 3rd highest ranked defender on the official PL stats last year. Which other of the top 10 is a crap defender? Answer - None of them. Why is Cuellar the only one that shouldn't be there? Answer - cos the people on H&V say he should only play in the centre and is rubbish at right back.
At times he was magnificent in defence last season but you ignore that because you've nailed him on the basis that he isn't confident when carrying the ball out of defence.
You've also decided on the basis of an unsubstantiated post that it is a fact that Heskey is the highest paid player and that he earns 60k a week. I don't know if that is true and I suspect you don't either.
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A 7 page thread of gloom after a pre-season freindly defeat? In sharp contrast after the Feyenoord game.
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I don't think that Ellis did talk to Padfield actually. And as far as I recall, Disco Stu was one of the posters who was most vehemently opposed to padfield.
Yes, Oscar Goldman, Disco Stu etc...
God, I used to enjoy those exchanges. They were entertaining.
I cant imagine why Doug wouldn't listen to what any serious party had to say. Unless he didn't think they were serious.
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I don't think we should get too hung up on what Heskey gets paid, although I'm sure some will, but more be concerned of the issue it represents, which is our overall wage bill.
Most would agree we had a good summer in 2010, with players being bought in that improved us, which of course means that we'd be paying more in wages than we did in 08/09. However, in terms of revenue that didn't translate to a higher league position or increased attendances, plus the cup runs don't generate massive income. So we can debate if we made progrss on the field as much as we like, but off it we did not pump up the turnover too much.
So, we're paying more and getting about the same in, so percentage wise it takes a hit and that needs to be addressed. Which is what I think we're seeing this summer.
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I don't think we should get too hung up on what Heskey gets paid, although I'm sure some will, but more be concerned of the issue it represents, which is our overall wage bill.
Most would agree we had a good summer in 2010, with players being bought in that improved us, which of course means that we'd be paying more in wages than we did in 08/09. However, in terms of revenue that didn't translate to a higher league position or increased attendances, plus the cup runs don't generate massive income. So we can debate if we made progrss on the field as much as we like, but off it we did not pump up the turnover too much.
So, we're paying more and getting about the same in, so percentage wise it takes a hit and that needs to be addressed. Which is what I think we're seeing this summer.
Perhaps not but surely the fact that we established ourselves as a top 6 side, appeared in a Wembley cup final and semi final were contributory factors in securing our best ever sposnorship deal.
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Good point. If wages were to stay at their present level over the next 12-months, then we'd experience an improvement in the ratio as turnover increases by at least the new sponsorship deal.
Maybe that's the plan - not let the wages increase any higher than they are now?
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A lot of it stems from the Moscow thing and especially the alleged arrogance showed by MON in his speech at the 'lets make up' dinner afterwards when I gather he effectively dismissed anyone elses opinion on how to run our club.
Yep same with my mates who are out there too. They cannot stand O'Neill because of what he said.
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Good point. If wages were to stay at their present level over the next 12-months, then we'd experience an improvement in the ratio as turnover increases by at least the new sponsorship deal.
Maybe that's the plan - not let the wages increase any higher than they are now?
I think the plan is to get rid of players that we don't use or need and replace them with players we do. I think it's really that simple.
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Good point. If wages were to stay at their present level over the next 12-months, then we'd experience an improvement in the ratio as turnover increases by at least the new sponsorship deal.
Maybe that's the plan - not let the wages increase any higher than they are now?
I think the plan is to get rid of players that we don't use or need and replace them with players we do. I think it's really that simple.
Damn straight. No elaborate conspiracies, no power struggle, no financial crisis. Just the normal business of running a football club.
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Does anyone really think those people DCF is talking about have formed that opinion after one pre season friendly?
I'm imagining not.
I'm sure they hadn't it's just there was no calls of MON out the night previously.
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A 7 page thread of gloom after a pre-season freindly defeat? In sharp contrast after the Feyenoord game.
I don't think there is anybody stupid enough to base their criticisms of MON on a friendly defeat to Benfica. I base mine on the fact that I don't enjoy watching the style of football and I have decided the best way I can do that is not to attend matches. If I enjoyed the games I wouldn't hesitate spending my hard earned cash......
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In fact, I would swap 6th for 8th right now if I thought we could play a bit of football next season.
Mentalist.
Winning fewer games is not fun.
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Good point. If wages were to stay at their present level over the next 12-months, then we'd experience an improvement in the ratio as turnover increases by at least the new sponsorship deal.
Maybe that's the plan - not let the wages increase any higher than they are now?
I think the plan is to get rid of players that we don't use or need and replace them with players we do. I think it's really that simple.
Damn straight. No elaborate conspiracies, no power struggle, no financial crisis. Just the normal business of running a football club.
True, but I think there are players who will leave that Martin would be happy enough to keep around as cover (Young, Davies, NRC), but he has a remit to make room on the wagebill for his new signings. That's my reading of it anyway!
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Good point. If wages were to stay at their present level over the next 12-months, then we'd experience an improvement in the ratio as turnover increases by at least the new sponsorship deal.
Maybe that's the plan - not let the wages increase any higher than they are now?
I think the plan is to get rid of players that we don't use or need and replace them with players we do. I think it's really that simple.
Damn straight. No elaborate conspiracies, no power struggle, no financial crisis. Just the normal business of running a football club.
True, but I think there are players who will leave that Martin would be happy enough to keep around as cover (Young, Davies, NRC), but he has a remit to make room on the wagebill for his new signings. That's my reading of it anyway!
To be honest if he's happy to keep Young, Davies and NRC as anything other than doorstops then something's wrong. All three are technically incompetent and positionally brainless.
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Harsh. I think all three are useful players.
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Good point. If wages were to stay at their present level over the next 12-months, then we'd experience an improvement in the ratio as turnover increases by at least the new sponsorship deal.
Maybe that's the plan - not let the wages increase any higher than they are now?
I think the plan is to get rid of players that we don't use or need and replace them with players we do. I think it's really that simple.
Damn straight. No elaborate conspiracies, no power struggle, no financial crisis. Just the normal business of running a football club.
True, but I think there are players who will leave that Martin would be happy enough to keep around as cover (Young, Davies, NRC), but he has a remit to make room on the wagebill for his new signings. That's my reading of it anyway!
To be honest if he's happy to keep Young, Davies and NRC as anything other than doorstops then something's wrong. All three are technically incompetent and positionally brainless.
He paid over £20m for those three why wouldn't he play them?
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Useful to the sort of position we were in when MON signed them, but Luke has dipped badly, Davies has had injuries and failed to reach his potential, and as for NRC - there's no point in winning the ball if all you do is give it straight back again.
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NRC is no worse a player than Palacios at Spurs if detailed to play as a combative midfield player and thus is bloody useful to have in the side, even in a 4-4-2 next to Petrov. Creative, no, but might not be wide open.
Davies has been very unlucky since his shoulder went, and though Collins did well, I still think Davies long term is a better bet.
Luke Young should be playing right back if he is fully fit and right in the head.
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Just a quickpoint - Who would replace MON that is available.
Could all the doomsayers on here cope with another 're-forming' stage.
Sorry but unless someone comes in with more money than sense then unfortunately we have reached our pinnacle or there about.
Citeh are a really unfashionable club but hey money talks.
I don't like some of the decisions MON makes, however until there is someone better in the market place I am happy to keep going where we are.
If it aint broke (and let face it its not) don't fix it.
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I don't think NRC is anywhere near as good as Palacios. For a start, he doesn't have the positional awareness, he gets sucked to the ball too much. Secondly, if he could pass the ball competently at all he'd be useful, but he really can't, or sometimes even won't - head down, run forwards, lose the ball seems to be his style.
Players who break up play are useful, but NRC is nowhere near the likes of Makelele, De Jong or even Palacios - he just give the ball away too much.
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Good point. If wages were to stay at their present level over the next 12-months, then we'd experience an improvement in the ratio as turnover increases by at least the new sponsorship deal.
Maybe that's the plan - not let the wages increase any higher than they are now?
I think the plan is to get rid of players that we don't use or need and replace them with players we do. I think it's really that simple.
Damn straight. No elaborate conspiracies, no power struggle, no financial crisis. Just the normal business of running a football club.
True, but I think there are players who will leave that Martin would be happy enough to keep around as cover (Young, Davies, NRC), but he has a remit to make room on the wagebill for his new signings. That's my reading of it anyway!
If he has no intention of playing them, it's not such a bad idea to get them off the wage bill. Or maybe Martin wants his cake and eat it too? I've no idea but I can't see the problem with getting rid of players we don't use, pay high wages to and replacing them with players that we will.
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I personally don't think Young is up to it. That's not based on the Chelsea game, but something I've thought for a long time now and before the hubaloo kicked up last term.
I think NRC can offer something, but I don’t think he should be anything more than a squad player.
Curtis needs to play with a solid centre half next to him if he’s going to deliver. Couple this with his poor injury record at the Albion and here leads me to see him as unreliable.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
A bit late to respond, but it's not Knee-jerk and it's not too early.
It's like Wigan last year, the booing wasn't about the previous 45 mins. it was that 45 mins following loads of similar 45 mins and nothing looked like changing.
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If he has no intention of playing them, it's not such a bad idea to get them off the wage bill. Or maybe Martin wants his cake and eat it too? I've no idea but I can't see the problem with getting rid of players we don't use, pay high wages to and replacing them with players that we will.
I don't see a problem with it either, just that I think it might be a case of NEEDING to get rid of them to get the players he will play more often.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
A bit late to respond, but it's not Knee-jerk and it's not too early.
It's like Wigan last year, the booing wasn't about the previous 45 mins. it was that 45 mins following loads of similar 45 mins and nothing looked like changing.
Didn't we stuff Liverpool 3-1 following the Wigan game ??
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O'Neill is now out of favour with a high percentage of fans.
If I brought a"MON OUT" banner to the holte against West Ham I bet I'd get a load of funny looks.
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You also have to take into account that we're in the silly season. Once the transfer window is closed and we get down to playing proper games then there are more concrete things to worry about instead of all this naval gazing that we get at the moment (where every tiny rumour and soundbite is analysed to the nth degree) is replaced by a proper discussion on football.
How the team do next season will decide the future of the manager anything else is just idle chat.
Like which player he'll play at Right back this week?
Like why does he persist with Heskey?
Why is Reo-Coker no where near the team?
Like why 4-4-2?
Let's face it we're in for a season EXACTLY the same as last year. Only without the Wembley visits. If you're happy with that then fair play to you, but I don't think we're going to progress.
Freidel
Cuellar-Dunne-Collins-Shorey
Young Petrov Sidwell Downing
Carew-Agbonlahor
There's aour starting 11 for the opener. Want to bet against it?
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Too right I'm cantankerous, I'm fed up to the back teeth.
If someone had suggested that our 4th season would see us finishing above Liverpool, reaching the FA Cup semi-final and the League Cup final, they woudnt have been believed. People ike to portray it as a symptom of liverpool being unusually poor last season but 64 points and good cup runs was exactly what was needed to catch up with the traditional Sky4.
Now that we've reached that level, it seems the same people who said O'Neil couldn't get us to that level are now insisting that this is as good as it can possibly get and acting as though their opinion is a statement of fact.
Randy is the ony person who is going to make a decision on MON and its clear that he is backing him for next sesson. What is the point of focussing sooooo much attention on it?
How about we try to avoid creating the same poisonous atmosphere for West Ham that we created for Wigan. How about if we actualy go into this season giving the team our full unreserved support and give this ridicuous Martin O'Neill soap opera a fecking rest.
Finishing 6th and winning nothing, with an early European exit? Yep I could forsee that.
What this arguement boils down to is the opinion of a sizeable number of fans that if only MON changed by 10% we'd be on to a winner. Sadly we all know that isn't going to happen. MON's created a rod for his own back. yep.
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Hard to argue with that starting X1 - Warnock at LB though. Hopefully NRC centre midfield instead of Sidwell if MON can swallow his pride.
Still... there's a static atmosphere around, it feels. Reading a lot of O'Neill's comments so far this summer, he does seem to be keen to make a point of transfers - he doesn't know the latest, doesn't know why Luke Young's transfer to Liverpool collapsed, all that sort of thing. Could be him being obtuse as always, of course, but there's also a feeling from me that he wants to get this party line across. Almost as if his hands are tied, he'll work with what he's allowed.
I think we'll have this one season with him and then it wouldn't surprise me if there's a change at the end of it.
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I don't think that Ellis did talk to Padfield actually. And as far as I recall, Disco Stu was one of the posters who was most vehemently opposed to padfield.
I think he means exactly that and give Councillor Swann a chance to ridicule again.
Or run back from the North Birmingham drink to tell tales.
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Finishing 6th and winning nothing, with an early European exit? Yep I could forsee that.
What this arguement boils down to is the opinion of a sizeable number of fans that if only MON changed by 10% we'd be on to a winner. Sadly we all know that isn't going to happen. MON's created a rod for his own back. yep.
But would you want to lose what's good about MON for the 10% you'd stand to gain?
Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
Let's say Randy sacks him tomorrow - I genuinely can't see who this wonderful manager is who's going to walk through the door and have us winning the league. When it comes to signing the players we need to step up to the next level we don't have the money to compete with Man City/Chelsea/Spurs or the history/reputation to compete with Man Utd/Liverpool.
MON's doing a good job with the resources available. As is standard with some fans, we get a knee-jerk reaction to one bad result. It's like Chelsea last season again, except this game's even less important!!!
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You also have to take into account that we're in the silly season. Once the transfer window is closed and we get down to playing proper games then there are more concrete things to worry about instead of all this naval gazing that we get at the moment (where every tiny rumour and soundbite is analysed to the nth degree) is replaced by a proper discussion on football.
How the team do next season will decide the future of the manager anything else is just idle chat.
Like which player he'll play at Right back this week?
Like why does he persist with Heskey?
Why is Reo-Coker no where near the team?
Like why 4-4-2?
Let's face it we're in for a season EXACTLY the same as last year. Only without the Wembley visits. If you're happy with that then fair play to you, but I don't think we're going to progress.
Freidel
Cuellar-Dunne-Collins-Shorey
Young Petrov Sidwell Downing
Carew-Agbonlahor
There's aour starting 11 for the opener. Want to bet against it?
Ok, I'll bet you a pint in the J & H the following week that isn't the side.
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I'm another who thinks O'Neill won't last the season, however calling for him to go on August 2nd is just nuts. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to be honest.
A bit late to respond, but it's not Knee-jerk and it's not too early.
It's like Wigan last year, the booing wasn't about the previous 45 mins. it was that 45 mins following loads of similar 45 mins and nothing looked like changing.
Didn't we stuff Liverpool 3-1 following the Wigan game ??
Yep and we'll always have a chance to beat te top 4 sides who think they can beat us and therefore are more "open". We struggle to beat teams who want to park the bus. And we saw that so many times last year, especially at home because we don't have a plan to break them down.
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Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
this is fast becoming a myth. Who was the last player that he got the "most" out of compared to where they were before?
Shorey? Harewood? Heskey? Sidwell? NRC? Petrov?
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Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
this is fast becoming a myth. Who was the last player that he got the "most" out of compared to where they were before?
Shorey? Harewood? Heskey? Sidwell? NRC? Petrov?
Milner, Collins, Warnock, Dunne...
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Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
this is fast becoming a myth. Who was the last player that he got the "most" out of compared to where they were before?
Shorey? Harewood? Heskey? Sidwell? NRC? Petrov?
Milner, Collins, Warnock, Dunne...
Ashley Young? Gabby?
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Milner, Collins, Warnock, Dunne...
All previously performing well at their previous club and highly rated by their fans
hardly a list of strugglers that O'Neil has got the most out of
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I dont remember one person saying we'd challenge for the Champions League. Not that it didn't happen, just that I dont recall it at all. Getting there was a tough ask as far as I was concerned. Still is.
And why wouldn't using contacts at IMG help? How do we know they haven't? They probably helped us score the Nike deal anyway. In fact I'm sure of it.
It was a fair enough assumption at the time.
Maybe MON had access to the World wide web but went shopping at the corner shop down the road instead. I dont recall anybody saying that would happen at the time either.
I remember some saying that we should have sold to Padfield and Co who hasnt been seen or heard of since in Football. Maybe we dodged a fatal bullet on that one? A lot of things are said and dragged up to be ridiculed again at a later date.
I can remember several people saying we'd be regulars in the Champions League and aiming to get " a second star on the badge." I can also remember how IMG were going to help us market the club around the world. They probably did help with the Nike deal, but like a lot of things, that's not exactly awe-inspiring these days.
I don't remember anyone saying we should have been sold to Padfield & co because no-one did. Talk to him, yes. Talk to anyone with a viable plan to buy the club and take it forward, then sell to the best. That would be sound common sense, and it's what happened. Because for all the current less than optimistic mood, Randy has proved to be what we all thought he would be - the best option.
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Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
this is fast becoming a myth. Who was the last player that he got the "most" out of compared to where they were before?
Shorey? Harewood? Heskey? Sidwell? NRC? Petrov?
How about Milner - wasting his career in Newcastle's squad as a reasonable winger until MON put him centre-mid and turned him into a £20m+ player touted (admittedly on here) as the natural replacement for Gerrard?
Warnock - again, wasting his career until MON picked him up and got him back into the England squad.
Dunne/Collins - both decent players but unspectacular. MON brings them in to our side and Chelsea away aside we have the best defence in the league.
That's from 5 minutes thought without trying too hard...
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Milner, Collins, Warnock, Dunne...
All previously performing well at their previous club and highly rated by their fans
Hardly the case where Dunne is concerned. His form was patchy at best in his last season for Man City. As for Milner, was he rated as one of the brightest future England hopes? No.
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Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
this is fast becoming a myth. Who was the last player that he got the "most" out of compared to where they were before?
Shorey? Harewood? Heskey? Sidwell? NRC? Petrov?
How about Milner - wasting his career in Newcastle's squad as a reasonable winger until MON put him centre-mid and turned him into a £20m+ player touted (admittedly on here) as the natural replacement for Gerrard?
Warnock - again, wasting his career until MON picked him up and got him back into the England squad.
Dunne/Collins - both decent players but unspectacular. MON brings them in to our side and Chelsea away aside we have the best defence in the league.
That's from 5 minutes thought without trying too hard...
Milner will play for man city (should he leave) in the same place as he played for england in the summer - as a winger
None of these players have gone from average to great because of O'Neil......regardless of how many times you say they're "wasting" their careers just because they were at other clubs
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I think that, from the position we were in at the time, getting Nike to pay us to make our shirts was pretty awe inspiring. But when all is said and done, it's just a shirt. Still, it was a big coup at the time and far more than we might have expected.
A lot of things were said at that time and we didnt really know what was going to happen. Maybe a few people got carried away with the Euphoria, with renewed hope. I can understand that.
Anyway, I dont think we should start looking at anything as over or in retrospect. There's always a chance we can move on and reach the *spits* promised land. Maybe it wont be with MON but I still think there's more to Football than just finance.
If Spurs can get there and compete (which remains to be seen) so can we.
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If he has no intention of playing them, it's not such a bad idea to get them off the wage bill. Or maybe Martin wants his cake and eat it too? I've no idea but I can't see the problem with getting rid of players we don't use, pay high wages to and replacing them with players that we will.
I don't see a problem with it either, just that I think it might be a case of NEEDING to get rid of them to get the players he will play more often.
I think Randy has enough financial elasticity to allow us to get players in before we off load those we don't need.
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I'm not so sure about Milner playing as a winger at City, but anyway.
Credit where it's due - you can't slate the manager for signing players who haven't worked out, and also deny him credit for the ones who have.
Moving Milner into the centre of midfield was the catalyst for him not only going to the World Cup, but also becoming a real contender for a starting place. There was a huge fuss about the size of the fee we paid Newcastle for Milner... look at what he's worth now. Same with Ashley Young - he's helped him to develop into a really good player, perhaps not great, but still with plenty to go.
He's done well with Gabby. With Carew, previously a 'journeyman' striker with an iffy reputation.
Dunne and Collins were nowhere on anyone's shopping list last summer. Nowhere. Dunne was dismissed as slow and past it, surplus at City; Collins just wasn't on anyone's radar. They had a great season.
Consider what he did with Gareth Barry.... the guy's become an England regular because of working with O'Neill. And Petrov.... the manager has reinvented him as a deeper-lying midfielder and it's worked well.
What he hasn't done, so far, is sign a real unknown and developed him into a star, I agree with that, but he has had a positive effect on several players.
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I don't think Warnock has improved here, just performed on a better stage to catch Capello's eye.
Young, Milner and Gabby certainly have.
He's got Dunne back to his best and I didn't see enough of the pre-Villa Collins to comment, but I very much doubt he's any worse.
For Luke Young see Warnock.
He hasn't gotten the best out of Shorey or Sidwell.
Carew he has - mainly as he's gotten him to stay somewhere for longer than 5 minutes.
Harewood looked better than we thought in those cameo's in his first season, then faded back to what we all expected.
Knight was better than I thought and sold for a profit, so 1 in the plus column.
Some might not agree with this, but I don't think Heskey either improved or got worse - just stayed as he was.
Downing is a 'wait and see', as is Delph.
Overall I think the players he's bought in have surprised us, with a few often debated exceptions. Whether that's a case of him improving them or them being better than we thought in the first place you can decide for yourselves!
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If he has no intention of playing them, it's not such a bad idea to get them off the wage bill. Or maybe Martin wants his cake and eat it too? I've no idea but I can't see the problem with getting rid of players we don't use, pay high wages to and replacing them with players that we will.
I don't see a problem with it either, just that I think it might be a case of NEEDING to get rid of them to get the players he will play more often.
I think Randy has enough financial elasticity to allow us to get players in before we off load those we don't need.
Quite possibly, but I think he's trying to ease us off dependency on his finances and into reliance on our own.
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Consider what he did with Gareth Barry.... the guy's become an England regular because of working with O'Neill. And Petrov.... the manager has reinvented him as a deeper-lying midfielder and it's worked well.
Barry was on the verge of joining Portsmouth for around £5m when MON took over, and two years later a CL club like Liverpool are after him for over twice that.
As for petrov, I think he plays the same role for his country, so I'm not sure we can give him that much credit for 'reinventing' him!
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If he has no intention of playing them, it's not such a bad idea to get them off the wage bill. Or maybe Martin wants his cake and eat it too? I've no idea but I can't see the problem with getting rid of players we don't use, pay high wages to and replacing them with players that we will.
I don't see a problem with it either, just that I think it might be a case of NEEDING to get rid of them to get the players he will play more often.
I think Randy has enough financial elasticity to allow us to get players in before we off load those we don't need.
Quite possibly, but I think he's trying to ease us off dependency on his finances and into reliance on our own.
I don't think that's the case just yet, I think the General explained the current situation and position very clearly:
When we screw it up, we need to admit it and learn from the mistakes. Right now, we need to look at the current wages paid and make sure that we are paying them to the right folks.
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Consider what he did with Gareth Barry.... the guy's become an England regular because of working with O'Neill. And Petrov.... the manager has reinvented him as a deeper-lying midfielder and it's worked well.
Barry was on the verge of joining Portsmouth for around £5m when MON took over, and two years later a CL club like Liverpool are after him for over twice that.
As for petrov, I think he plays the same role for his country, so I'm not sure we can give him that much credit for 'reinventing' him!
I like Petrov, but let's not forget, he was rubbish for nigh on two years.
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Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
this is fast becoming a myth. Who was the last player that he got the "most" out of compared to where they were before?
Shorey? Harewood? Heskey? Sidwell? NRC? Petrov?
How about Milner - wasting his career in Newcastle's squad as a reasonable winger until MON put him centre-mid and turned him into a £20m+ player touted (admittedly on here) as the natural replacement for Gerrard?
Warnock - again, wasting his career until MON picked him up and got him back into the England squad.
Dunne/Collins - both decent players but unspectacular. MON brings them in to our side and Chelsea away aside we have the best defence in the league.
That's from 5 minutes thought without trying too hard...
Milner will play for man city (should he leave) in the same place as he played for england in the summer - as a winger
None of these players have gone from average to great because of O'Neil......regardless of how many times you say they're "wasting" their careers just because they were at other clubs
Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
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Also Barry was an attacking player for us. he was never a deeper-lying midfielder. It was England that changed him into that.
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I know a few who are in Portugal and I would say the majority of them are not happy with MON. I find it a bit odd as most of our better performances are away from home which would appease them you would think.
A lot of it stems from the Moscow thing and especially the alleged arrogance showed by MON in his speech at the 'lets make up' dinner afterwards when I gather he effectively dismissed anyone elses opinion on how to run our club.
The Europe thing annoys them in as much as they are very commited fans who enjoy their trips away and can't understand why MON would throw away an opportunity for more by playing weak sides. A lot of people went to Prague Hamburg etc and haven't really forgiven him.
There is certainly an element of truth to this.
I mentioned on another thread, but we had the Heskey signing, the Moscow debacle and the arse falling out of our season all in a relatively short space of time (about two months) of that season. We've never fully bounced back from that.
We had an OK season last year (at various times it looked like it could actually be a good one), but I think most of the doubts stem from that earlier period. Repeating patterns like poor form in March with a worn out team and fullbacks who aren't actually fullbacks don't help his cause either.
I wasn't one advocating he should go, but I wouldn't have been heartbroken if he'd decided to leave of his own accord this summer.
In the interest of balance, he has made us competitive again. To the point that we've been regularly discussed as top 4 candidates over the past two years. During that time we've managed some pretty spectacular results too. Our better players are also the subject of large bids from other clubs, which although not always desirable is a better state of affairs than our best players going to Middlesborough. Or as was the case in 2006, having virtually no saleable assets on the books at all. If we can't go the Chelsea/ Man Citeh route (and we can't) the next best thing is to trade at profit, and build a squad over time as per Tottenham and other similar sized clubs on the continent.
But maybe it will take a more innovative manager to build that squad, one who doesn't limit his search criteria to these shores.
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Anybody over the centuries who have proclaimed that "The End is Nigh" have all been wrong.
there were a group of us who sat in the centre circle once proclaiming the end was nigh.
I remember losing an away match at Port Vale ot long after, in he pouring rain and thinking how right we'd all been .
so you never know we sometimes get it riight
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
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There was talk of the 5 year plan when Randy came (although one was never communicated). This will be O'Neill's 5th season in charge, and probably his last.
My only fear is that the bad blood that is brewing for the manager doesn't run over onto the owner.
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We are at a major crossroads with MON. My gut says he needs another season but that he probably won't take us any further.
If we sell Milner and he re-invests the money really well it could make his villa career.
The only problem with that is I can't see him spending that sort of money well at all. he will pay over the odds for some British player like Scott Parker rather than get somebody on the cheap from Europe.
As I said before, transfer dealings, tactics and stubborn attitude have got to change. Otherwise I think he will be gone by May 2011.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
I'd agree. He's no more a £25m player than Lescott was last year. Still, I won't moan if they pay it.
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As to Mon leaving RL has started implimenting changes to reduce Mons control and as Mon only showed minor discomfort, i'd guess he intends to hang on to try and increase his cred.
RL is not going to destabilise his investment at this time by sacking him, so we'd better sit back and do our best to hide our disapointment.
Hopefully the measures instigated may generate the conditions were RL can move without risk. Of course they may result in Mon being centred enough to achieve something.
Doubt it but it remains a possibility.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
That's a fcator but surely you wouldn't try to argue that he's not now a significantly better player than he was then. With all the money at their disposal why would they want Milner if he wasn't a much improved player.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
That's a fcator but surely you wouldn't try to argue that he's not now a significantly better player than he was then. With all the money at their disposal why would they want Milner if he wasn't a much improved player.
Same player, different position. It's hard to compare last season's player with previous years as he never played in the middle before.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
That's a fcator but surely you wouldn't try to argue that he's not now a significantly better player than he was then. With all the money at their disposal why would they want Milner if he wasn't a much improved player.
Thanks for the sarcasm.....
The original issue I disputed was that MON's main USP is that he can "get the most" out of under performing players. Milner was suggest as someone but he was performing well at Newcastle.
There have been many quotes/suggestions/etc on here about how Milner puts in extra practise and seeks the right advice from people throughout the game to improve as a player. This is echoed in the effort he puts in to his game when playing.
I feel that Milner's determination and will to succeed has improved him as a player and not necessarily our manager
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
That's a fcator but surely you wouldn't try to argue that he's not now a significantly better player than he was then. With all the money at their disposal why would they want Milner if he wasn't a much improved player.
Same player, different position. It's hard to compare last season's player with previous years as he never played in the middle before.
So who put him into the middle?
I know that many of you struggle to give him credit for anything but it seems unarguable that he's had a significant and positive impact on the development of Milner.
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There was talk of the 5 year plan when Randy came (although one was never communicated). This will be O'Neill's 5th season in charge, and probably his last.
My only fear is that the bad blood that is brewing for the manager doesn't run over onto the owner.
I wouldn't say probably, although it is a possibility.
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I feel that Milner's determination and will to succeed has improved him as a player and not necessarily our manager
Yet if he hadn't improved, due to a lack of determination on his part or not, that would still be Martin's fault in some people's eyes.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
That's a fcator but surely you wouldn't try to argue that he's not now a significantly better player than he was then. With all the money at their disposal why would they want Milner if he wasn't a much improved player.
Same player, different position. It's hard to compare last season's player with previous years as he never played in the middle before.
So who put him into the middle?
I know that many of you struggle to give him credit for anything but it seems unarguable that he's had a significant and positive impact on the development of Milner.
He'd played in the middle before at Newcastle but putting that issue aside, it's impossible to argue he hasn't improved and even taking out the Man City factor, he'd still be worth £18m of anybody's money.
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I feel that Milner's determination and will to succeed has improved him as a player and not necessarily our manager
Yet if he hadn't improved, due to a lack of determination on his part or not, that would still be Martin's fault in some people's eyes.
Then that is "some people's" argument and not mine
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I feel that Milner's determination and will to succeed has improved him as a player and not necessarily our manager
Yet if he hadn't improved, due to a lack of determination on his part or not, that would still be Martin's fault in some people's eyes.
Then that is "some people's" argument and not mine
So the manager isn't at fault if players stand still or go backwards under him?
I think you're being quite unfair in not giving credit to Martin for the improvement in Milner as a player.
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Ding, dong, dell,
Milner doing well.
Who made him skill?
Little Mart O'Neill.
Why does he want out?
Gary Cook's about.
What a naughty boy was that,
To tap up greedy twat,
Now we're waiting for the fax,
And telling lies about his back.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
I would say he's gone from £12 million to £25 million because of Manchester City.
That's a fcator but surely you wouldn't try to argue that he's not now a significantly better player than he was then. With all the money at their disposal why would they want Milner if he wasn't a much improved player.
Same player, different position. It's hard to compare last season's player with previous years as he never played in the middle before.
So who put him into the middle?
I know that many of you struggle to give him credit for anything but it seems unarguable that he's had a significant and positive impact on the development of Milner.
Quite obviously it was the manager but Milner had been advocating that he wanted to play in the middle for some time previously!
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I feel that Milner's determination and will to succeed has improved him as a player and not necessarily our manager
Yet if he hadn't improved, due to a lack of determination on his part or not, that would still be Martin's fault in some people's eyes.
Then that is "some people's" argument and not mine
So the manager isn't at fault if players stand still or go backwards under him?
I think you're being quite unfair in not giving credit to Martin for the improvement in Milner as a player.
I never said that either.....
I refer you back to my previous comment that I feel the theory that MON gets the best out of under performing players is a myth and the only back up anyone has given is someone who was never under performing
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Yes
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Had no idea how we'd play
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
It's been better, but there are still gaps
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
None whatsoever
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
There have been individual games, but not enough consistency. Defence is the most improved, but maybe should have been done 2 years ago.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
Yes, but that is down to my eternal optimism and not based in any sense of reality....so No!
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
No.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
No. I've always seen top 4 as too hard to break without others slipping up above us. When it has happened we have failed to grasp the chance.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
One of them, yes.
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Absolutely.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes.
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes.
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
Yes.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No.
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
No.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
Sometimes.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
Absolutely not.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
I thought it would be possible but I'm also reasonably satisfied.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
A bit of column 'A', a bit of column 'B'
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
A bit of column 'A', a bit of column 'B'
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
No
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
No
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
No
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
No
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In fairness, we had a few Newcastle fans that came on here and said as a winger he wasn't great but his form in the centre for them had been decent.
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Milner was one of the most promising youngsters in the country when we signed him. Martin must take some of the credit for the player he is now, but this isn't a Dwight Yorke transformation we're talking about.
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Is this a warm up for the West Ham post match thread? If we'd drawn against Benfica or even been narrowly defeated, this thread would not exist.
It's the other extreme to the nonsense spouted about The Peace Cup last year. The results of both games were equally insignificant
Sadly, there seems to be an agenda for getting MON out the door now and every set back will be pounced on with multi page threads like these.
Be careful what you wish for is all I can say.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Not really as I never found his Leicester side to be all that entertaining.
4. Yes - and we have!
5. Yes - and he has, although there are weaknesses still.
6. Depends on when you start the modren from, but I'd say so on balance.
7. No.
8. No.
9. Yes, but it's a case of knowing there will be a mundane signing for every exciting one.
10. Not enough.
11. Hard to say, but if we're falling short of the realistic ambitions since him and Randy took over it's not by much.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
One of them, yes.
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Absolutely.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes.
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes.
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
Yes.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No.
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
No.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
Sometimes.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
Absolutely not.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
I thought it would be possible but I'm also reasonably satisfied.
Saved me the trouble of doing it.
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I don't think the end is nigh just yet, but I do see more and more posters starting to get disillusioned with O'Neill. I don't think too much should be, or is being, read into a pre-season defeat. Pre-seasons are notoriously unpredictable and unrepresentative. It's more about the lack of indication that things are going to be different (i.e better) next season in terms of playing style, tactics, and signings. Even some of O'Neill's staunchest supporters were saying at the end of last season that this one would be make or break for O'Neill and something had to change. I can't see much indication that the changes will come so far.
Sure we still have a month to make those signings and technical improvements that will transform us but as some have said, O'Neill is 58 years old, seems set in his ways and is as stubborn as a mule. I really do struggle to see those changes coming and if they don't, that means pretty much more of the same as we've had the last two seasons. I can't remember ever feeling as unexcited about a new season as I do at the moment.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
One of them, yes.
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Absolutely.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes.
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes.
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
Yes.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No.
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
No.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
Sometimes.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
Absolutely not.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
I thought it would be possible but I'm also reasonably satisfied.
Saved me the trouble of doing it.
Seconded or thirded.
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Ding, dong, dell,
Milner doing well.
Who made him skill?
Little Mart O'Neill.
Why does he want out?
Gary Cook's about.
What a naughty boy was that,
To tap up greedy twat,
Now we're waiting for the fax,
And telling lies about his back.
Another Nursery Crime from Maz! ;-)
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That John M has turned into a right miserable bugger! ;)
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Yes
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
No
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
To start with
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
No
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
No
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
No
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment? Yep
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over? Absolutely
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
It concerned me a tad, as Celtic and Leicester were about as far removed from total football as you could get. But I had hoped that better resources would equal a better style of play
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager? Yes
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad? Yes. And then some
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history? Sort of. We had better options and more variation under BFR and even JG up to a point
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board? None whatsoever
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved? No
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct? No
10. Does MoN utilise his squad? No
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves? In 2006? Yes, I probably did
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8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved? No
No better than it was under DOL?
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Yes
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
No.
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Definitely.
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
Yes.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
No. In fact, it has got worse. Last year was worse than the year before.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
Not at all.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
Not enough.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
Not necessarily, but I thought it would have been more fun.
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8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved? No
No better than it was under DOL?
It's better than that, it's the same old same old with us, we can play Arsenal off the pitch one week and look like a bunch of headless chickens against Stoke the next week.
We've been unfairly treated to glimpses of things that will never happen, remember when Ashley played at the top of a midfield diamond for the last 10 or so games 2 seasons back, the attacking football we played was awesome. When we've had patches of 4 5 1 we've looked like a great counter attack team, MON has never utilised these things as separate plan a plan b type scenario when things aren't going our way.
When Gabby's in form, big John is completely off the boil, when big John fancies it Gabby can't be fucked etc.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
In my opinion
1 yes, I was delighted when he took the job
2 yes, clearly but you would expect that given a) how shit we were b) how much money he's spent
3 yes but I wasn't expecting too much given his style of play at Leicester
4 yes and we did
5 yes a much better squad than we currently have
6 yes but I would say the team Little built was better
7 No
8 We are clearly playing better football than we saw under DoL or GT2 but that isn't saying much
9 No, not at all
10 See 9
11 Absolutely, it is just a shame RAL didn't appear 5 years earlier.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
You're right I wouldn't have thought anyone would have considered paying £25m for milner 2 years ago.......i don't think anyone would.
Stick with me here this bit is complicated; if he was worth £12m 2 years ago and now is a £25m player then surely that means he has "gone from average to great because of O'Neill".
Maybe. However, how often is O' Neill seen on the training ground?
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment? Yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over? Yes, both on and off the field.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play? Yes
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager? Certainly. If anything this is the one area that I was most assured in, and as a result, I thought that better players would provide success.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad? More than any other Villa manager and more than any other top-flight manager of present times bar Ferguson and Wenger.
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history? Nearly, all apart from our attacking options.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board? None at all.
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved? It appeared for a time that we were one of the most exciting teams to watch in the league. But that has steadily declined over the last few seasons to become the standard dull and unimaginative play we witness all too often.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct? No.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad? No.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves? Yes without a doubt, and I think that the best opportunity we have had, or are ever going to get, at becoming a real and credible force to regularly win silverware has been well and truly squandered.
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I like Oneil but his negatives really do out wieght his positives.
I am really worried that we will struggle this season because of Martin.
It really does seem like he is not moving with the times, he thinks that if he persists with his way it will eventually work. Meanwhile our competetors are progressing and adapting to modern style football. Resulting in us back to a mid table club, failing at the last hurdle again.
I am so worried because it seems as though he cannot see it!
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Yes, it was great appointment for us.
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Yes as we were in better shape and not too far away from decent team.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
No I hated our style but we do have some exciting game but our football is poor, I have watched football in Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla, Amsterdam, Rome and Milan and prefer European footballing style.
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes, but we doesn't try to do more oversea.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes he had 4 season and plenty of dosh.
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
No, I would argue our team under John Gregory is stronger squadwise.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No, he was left to manage.
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
It had improved but still not pretty enough. We are more effective and solid but not enough quality.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
Nope, apart from Ashley Young none of our signing have really excite (Entertainment point of view) me.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
No We can predict 10 our of 11 players every game and work out who will come on too easily.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
No I expect a little more but we have done well.
I think Martin have done enough from last season to get another season as a manager. But I won't be too upset if we have someone new in charge, but it need to be right man otherwise he will destroy the good work.
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Welcome aboard Michael.
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Paulie has saved me the bother of answering those questions.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Yes, A million miles better, I think it's no great stretch to say another season of Doug and DoL would've seen us in the championship.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes, I expected us to play the 4-3-3 that we started out with (moore, angel and gabby up top) and I'm gutted that we haven't stuck with it.
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Not immediately, too many players don't know anything about football that the press doesn't tell them and we've never had good press.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
Yes, The only other time we've looked so close to being a very good side was with Gregory but we didn't have any youth coming through to back it up.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
Not at all
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
Yes and no, we're not any prettier to watch but we have a lot more belief against the big sides and we do see some flashes of brilliance. If we could make those happen 3-4 times a game without losing our solidity we'd be a great side.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
I think so, The only big money signing I've not been totally approving of was Downing, purely because of the injury, a couple more signings like Milner, Young and Delph will keep me on side.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
Not as much as I'd like but it's a tough call as whilst he gets ripped for us losing when we're tired he'd get just as much stick if he played backup players and we lost. It's a double edged sword and it's a bit too easy to say 'if we'd rested xxx' we'd have finished fourth, nothing in sport is that certain.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
A little maybe as I thought we'd have a trophy by now, of course if Vidic had seen red...
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Yes
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes, I definitely thought we would attract a much better class of player
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes, Big Ron, Brian Little and John Gregory never had as much time as he has had and achieved (relative) success with the club
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
Tough question. We bring our players in from a narrow pool(UK and Ireland) and this limits our choice. We have a bigger squad than previous managers have had but I believe previous managers would use such a squad much better.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
No, again he has never been on the brink or under pressure the way Little, Big Ron or JG were
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
07/08 we played some great stuff. Downhill since then with last season being the worst
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
I now expect the worst as it will be less disappointing for me
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
As I said earlier, no. He uses it quite badly
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves?
I thought we would have a stronger first eleven with players in their proper positions and a sense that we were now on the cusp of great things. However, it feels like we have stalled and could be stepping backwards again.We have been consistent but we don't have a whole lot to show for it yet. This is MON's make or break season
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Everyone's got their faults, MON included, but for me he's one of the best there is for getting the most out of players.
this is fast becoming a myth. Who was the last player that he got the "most" out of compared to where they were before?
Shorey? Harewood? Heskey? Sidwell? NRC? Petrov?
How about Milner - wasting his career in Newcastle's squad as a reasonable winger until MON put him centre-mid and turned him into a £20m+ player touted (admittedly on here) as the natural replacement for Gerrard?
Warnock - again, wasting his career until MON picked him up and got him back into the England squad.
Dunne/Collins - both decent players but unspectacular. MON brings them in to our side and Chelsea away aside we have the best defence in the league.
That's from 5 minutes thought without trying too hard...
Well if he was that clever why did it take him two years to try Milner in the middle? And Milner was hardly wasting away at Newcastle.
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Milner was one of the most promising youngsters in the country when we signed him. Martin must take some of the credit for the player he is now, but this isn't a Dwight Yorke transformation we're talking about.
True but he had the foresight to switch him centrally once Downing got fit and his performances in the second half of the season have I'd say added another 10m to his valuation.
It was the same with Barry. Decent left sided midfielder but only attracting 5m bids from clubs like Pompey, MON then switched him to central midfield and the valuation increased.
MON has many faults but he does deserve a bit of credit for shifting decent wide midfielders into central midfield and making it work for them and increasing their value.
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I'm not so sure about Milner playing as a winger at City, but anyway.
Credit where it's due - you can't slate the manager for signing players who haven't worked out, and also deny him credit for the ones who have.
Moving Milner into the centre of midfield was the catalyst for him not only going to the World Cup, but also becoming a real contender for a starting place. There was a huge fuss about the size of the fee we paid Newcastle for Milner... look at what he's worth now. Same with Ashley Young - he's helped him to develop into a really good player, perhaps not great, but still with plenty to go.
He's done well with Gabby. With Carew, previously a 'journeyman' striker with an iffy reputation.
Dunne and Collins were nowhere on anyone's shopping list last summer. Nowhere. Dunne was dismissed as slow and past it, surplus at City; Collins just wasn't on anyone's radar. They had a great season.
Consider what he did with Gareth Barry.... the guy's become an England regular because of working with O'Neill. And Petrov.... the manager has reinvented him as a deeper-lying midfielder and it's worked well.
What he hasn't done, so far, is sign a real unknown and developed him into a star, I agree with that, but he has had a positive effect on several players.
This is all very true. Which makes all the failures seem even more spectacular.
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Oh come off it, would anyone have considered paying £25m for Milner 2 yaers ago? You were probably one of the ones saying we'd overspent at £12m.
And who apart from Man City would consider paying that?
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I don't agree that moving Milner inside was the catalyst for him going to the World Cup as he was still a wide player when Capello said that he was the future. You don't say that and then leave him at home.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment? YES
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over? YES
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play? YES
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager? YES
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad? YES
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
YES
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board? NO
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved? NO, not at home
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct? NO NO NO
10. Does MoN utilise his squad? NO
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves? YES
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment? YES
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over? YES
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play? Not necessarily
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager? YES - by now.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad? YES
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
YES
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board? NO
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved? NO. Initially yes, but I'm starting to think that was in spite of the manager not because of him.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct? YES. I get excited and full of anticipation for every transfer window. Although this is no different I no longer wait hopefully for that bums on seats player.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad? NO. But there again, that's only for the league and I'm not really sure that we should utilise it too much. The starting 11 are that because they are the best 11 at the time. I'm no great fan of chopping and changing during a game just because you have many players on the bench.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves? YES
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Mon has done an ok job- not great but not bad but we are not going to any further under him- if we find ourselves fighting for 7th next season as I think we will then we will run the risk of again having our best players cherry picked by others.
He is too stubborn to admit when he Is wrong and more likely to cut off his nose to spite his face, I really feel this will be end of his tenure this season, in a way I'm sad he didn't walk away in may as I feel things could turn very sour in the coming months.
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Milner was one of the most promising youngsters in the country when we signed him. Martin must take some of the credit for the player he is now, but this isn't a Dwight Yorke transformation we're talking about.
Who was the bloke who first bought him to Villa and put him on the radar, not O'Neill
Who played him first in midfield, for England, not O'Neill.
When did his great improvement start, when Mon signed him or years later when Capello picked him and played him ?
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I can't believe this has run to 14 pages in less than 24 hours!
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With a title like this it can't go on forever.
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Milner was one of the most promising youngsters in the country when we signed him. Martin must take some of the credit for the player he is now, but this isn't a Dwight Yorke transformation we're talking about.
Who was the bloke who first bought him to Villa and put him on the radar, not O'Neill
Who played him first in midfield, for England, not O'Neill.
When did his great improvement start, when Mon signed him or years later when Capello picked him and played him ?
Eh? What are you taking?! Milner was a winger who couldn't cross cum makeshift centre forward until MON saw his potential and put him in for Barry in the left side of midfield. It was only after this happened that he started to get chosen for England.
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Milner was one of the most promising youngsters in the country when we signed him. Martin must take some of the credit for the player he is now, but this isn't a Dwight Yorke transformation we're talking about.
Who was the bloke who first bought him to Villa and put him on the radar, not O'Neill
Who played him first in midfield, for England, not O'Neill.
When did his great improvement start, when Mon signed him or years later when Capello picked him and played him ?
Eh? What are you taking?! Milner was a winger who couldn't cross cum makeshift centre forward until MON saw his potential and put him in for Barry in the left side of midfield. It was only after this happened that he started to get chosen for England.
Milner played in several roles at newcastle including centre midfield .
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Who first signed Milner for Villa?
DOL?!
;)
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With a title like this it can't go on forever.
Are you referring to Harmigedun? Just because I cannot spell it, it doesn’t mean it is the end of the world you know…
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I think what it boils down to is that we all expected far more than a replay of the John Gregory years when Randy and MON took over. We maybe even hoped that we might do a smaller scale version of Chelsea. 4 years on and no trophies, shite football, no players of any entertainment value with the exception of Young and Carew when they can be arsed, and just as likely if not more so of going backwards than forwards next season. It's not all MON's fault though and he has given us a cup final (albeit a meek performance like the one previous) and a win at old trafford + 100% against Blues. Randy is a far better owner than Doug, but ultimately is not massively well off in Premier League terms nowadays. This makes it hard to really compete at the top level. MON is doing his best, but i just wish he would give us more entertainment and a few less baffling decisions (like the right back debacle and playing Heskey).
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Credit where it's due - you can't slate the manager for signing players who haven't worked out, and also deny him credit for the ones who have.
This is very true. Ash, JC, Milner were excellent buys. Friedel, Dunne and Collins have been solid. Warnock's form pre injury was very encouraging.
Moving Milner into the centre of midfield was the catalyst for him not only going to the World Cup, but also becoming a real contender for a starting place. There was a huge fuss about the size of the fee we paid Newcastle for Milner... look at what he's worth now. Same with Ashley Young - he's helped him to develop into a really good player, perhaps not great, but still with plenty to go.
Possibly. But Milner had been badgering MON to play in the centre for a while, it was where his best form for Newcastle had been.
Consider what he did with Gareth Barry.... the guy's become an England regular because of working with O'Neill. And Petrov.... the manager has reinvented him as a deeper-lying midfielder and it's worked well.
I don't think MON reinvented him particularly. At international level (generally a far higher standard than the SPL) Petrov had been playing as a deep lying DM for years. If NRC went north of the border he'd probably be played as an all action goalscoring midfielder too.
It's probably that we thought we were getting a midfielder in a similar mould to a Lampard or Gerrard that caused the initial disappointment. Stan has many qualities, reads the game well. Rarely wastes possession. But he's not really in their league.
MON deserves credit for a lot of things. Making us competitive again, placing an emphasis (initially) on good, young players. Fantastic away form, good organisation and use of set pieces. Improvement in the defence last year -when it had looked a bit of an achilles heel the year before.
It's whether he has it in his locker to sort out some of our other deficiencies that causes most debate on here. Increasingly it seems that many don't feel he's up to it.
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment? yes
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over? yes
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play? yes, compared with what had gone before
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager? yes and I think we did
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad? yes but not top 3 level
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history? Yes, since the early 80s with a few seasons exceptions
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board? No, unless he was promised more and is not getting it but circumstances change and so do roles
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved? Yes, we are getting better results relatively. Style of football has dipped the closer we have got to the top 4
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct? I get excited by most transfers into the club but I do not see us spending more than £15m on a player, regardless of who is the manager, so do not see us getting a real 'star' player
10. Does MoN utilise his squad? clearly no but our team relies on stability rather than rotating for its teamwork
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves? at the time Randy came in I thought we had a good chance of top 4 but I appreciate circumstances have changed regarding the PL
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
So it seemed at the time.
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Definitely in the non-footballing side of the Club. On the playing side, it would be hard to not be better off as it was so dire previously.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
Yes
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
We have some good prospects coming through but a lot of the senior players are now stale.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
Certainly not.
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
It had improved at one stage.
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
No
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
No
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves? Yes
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Who played him first in midfield, for England, not O'Neill.
I've been thinking about this for ages, can you tell me the answer please? Are you saying James Milner hadn't played in midfield until he was chosen there for England?
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Am I the only person who still rates, respects, and trusts MON?
So much negativity. I know that he leaves his signings late but he's still a f****** great manager.
Without MON we'd still be mid-to-bottom of the table now.
And all this stuff about failed signings, at the end of the day every manager makes a mistake or two. Manager's have to see potential to sign someone and, unfortunately, they sometimes do not live up to that potential.
I still love MON. And I'll be greatly saddened if/when he leaves.
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Am I the only person who still rates, respects, and trusts MON?
I still love MON. And I'll be greatly saddened if/when he leaves.
No your not and I would also be sad. What worries me is that the fire in Mon's belly seems to be going out. We saw it briefly last season at Wembley for instance. However this pre-season he seems very subdued, possibly frustrated that other teams like Man City can just come in and take his crown jewels where we are powerless to stop them. Last season we got into Europe and had two trips to Wembley, the latter just about make it an improvement on the season before for me. It is time players like Downing stepped up to the mark and repaid the faith the manager has placed in them with the size of fee paid.
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Am I the only person who still rates, respects, and trusts MON?
So much negativity. I know that he leaves his signings late but he's still a f****** great manager.
Without MON we'd still be mid-to-bottom of the table now.
And all this stuff about failed signings, at the end of the day every manager makes a mistake or two. Manager's have to see potential to sign someone and, unfortunately, they sometimes do not live up to that potential.
I still love MON. And I'll be greatly saddened if/when he leaves.
What about him is "fucking great" exactly?
As for still being bottom of the table, that's laughable. Lerner would still have bought the club, would no doubt have appointed another good manager and given him the same amount of money to spend. Who knows, maybe that manager wouldn't have wasted many millions of pounds on the likes of Heskey, Harewood, Shorey, NRC, Sidwell etc etc etc etc. Every manager makes mistakes, but O'neill's record is worse than most other top managers in my opinion.
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Am I the only person who still rates, respects, and trusts MON?
No, you're not.
I find that on here peoples views of his strengths and weaknesses aren't all that different, just a matter of how much importance you place on them. Having said that, the one thing that truely does seem to polarise opinion is his transfer dealings!
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Think the only one on that list of "duff" buys is Harewood. Sidwell had all he qualities at the time to be a promising move. Heskey was sort after by several clubs. Same as Shorey and NRC. "maybe" the hypothetical manager who would of got the job would of put us in the "Champions League" Lets get real. MON has massively improved this club. Sidwell in particular has not played to the standard everyone expected .........
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1. Was MoN the right man for the job at the time of his appointment?
Thought so at the time, but with hindsight, no.
2. Are we in a better position now than what we were in when MoN took over?
Yes but I think there are many other managers who could have achieved as much or more with the backing he's had.
3. Were you initially excited about the style of football we would play?
Yes but I hadn't d seen much of Celtic under O'Neill.
4. Did you expect that we would be able to attract a better quality of player to the club given the fact that we had the new owners and MoN as our manager?
Yes but he doesn't seem interested in signing those kind of players.
5. Has MoN had the funds and enough time to build a squad?
More than enough. See what Redknapp has done at Spurs.
6. Would you say that we have a healthier and stronger squad now than at many other times in our clubs modern history?
Comparing is difficult, squads are far more important and need to be bigger now than even 10 or 15 years ago.
7. Should Mon have any complaints about the levels of trust and autonomy that has been handed to him by Randy and the board?
Certainly not.
8. During Mon’s tenure, has the football improved?
It did seem to at first but the last two season's have seen some of the most uninspiring football I can remember watchng Villa play
9. Do you get excited about the future transfer dealings that Mon will conduct?
No, absolutely not.
10. Does MoN utilise his squad?
No.
11. Did you expect to be in an even better position than what we presently find ourselves? Absolutely, it's been a massive opportunity wasted
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I find that on here peoples views of his strengths and weaknesses aren't all that different, just a matter of how much importance you place on them
I find a huge amount of importance on the fact that he's invested nigh on £16m on Emile Heskey.
That decision alone is unforgiveable.
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You can put me down for a "+1" on kt's answers.
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I find that on here peoples views of his strengths and weaknesses aren't all that different, just a matter of how much importance you place on them
I find a huge amount of importance on the fact that he's invested nigh on £16m on Emile Heskey.
That decision alone is unforgiveable.
£3.5m fee plus a (reported) £60k a week for the 1.5 years he's been here = £8.18m. Whatever it is it's not well spent, but's lets at least try and keep the figures right.
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Possibly. But Milner had been badgering MON to play in the centre for a while, it was where his best form for Newcastle had been.
I don't think MON reinvented him particularly. At international level (generally a far higher standard than the SPL) Petrov had been playing as a deep lying DM for years. If NRC went north of the border he'd probably be played as an all action goalscoring midfielder too.
Hmm, this is becoming the stuff of legend now. Milner was shunted all over the place at Newcastle - right wing, left wing, centre mid, second striker. He didn't have an extended run at centre mid. When we signed him he was seen as a right winger/midfielder. When, this time last year, we debated Barry's replacement and Milner was touted as a candidate for centre midfield, there were many who rubbished the idea.
Maybe reinvented Petrov was the wrong phrase. What impressed me there was that, halfway through his second season, Petrov was out of the side and looking a shoe-in to be sold. What the manager has done then is help to turn the situation around and turn the player into a key figure deserves acknowledgement.
Having said all that, Kevin, I share your concerns on MON moving us forward. Not least because he appears, in recent times, just as likely to fall out with a player as coax the best out of one.
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I've moved on from being one of the "Well who is better?" crowd to "Who would Randy realistically have got that would have been worse?"
I've got a fucking migraine and I'm utterly pissed off with the Milner bollocks, the Warnock bullshit, the Young crap, the lack of signings, the lack of plan B, the lack of any tactical nouse, the lack of creativity, the lack of anything resembling football from this century, the lack of anyone with a fancy European or South American name, the enormity of the money that ingrate footballers get paid......
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I've moved on from being one of the "Well who is better?" crowd to "Who would Randy realistically have got that would have been worse?"
I've got a fucking migraine and I'm utterly pissed off with the Milner bollocks, the Warnock bullshit, the Young crap, the lack of signings, the lack of plan B, the lack of any tactical nouse, the lack of creativity, the lack of anything resembling football from this century, the lack of anyone with a fancy European or South American name, the enormity of the money that ingrate footballers get paid......
You could always stop reading this thread.
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Snap out of it Troy. Your time would be better spent taking the piss out of idiots and there are a couple about on the electronic savannah.
Stop shaking like a shittin' sheila and grow some Mangefruit.
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Yes. I'll do that.
And I'll also go stick my head in the sand and imagine that everything is just fine and dandy!
EDIT: I'll be back when the Excedrin's kicked in.
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Who played him first in midfield, for England, not O'Neill.
I've been thinking about this for ages, can you tell me the answer please? Are you saying James Milner hadn't played in midfield until he was chosen there for England?
He was played in central midfield several times in England U21 games and occasionally while at Newcastle I'm told
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Occasionally for Newcastle, sure.
U21s? Don't recall that myself.
But anyway, I'll play and say yes: James Milner was an established central midfield player when we bought him from Newcastle and a nailed-on certainty to play for England at the 2010 World Cup. Martin O'Neill only used him last season as was blindingly obvious. Come to think of it, O'Neill was a fool - a fool! - for wasting a year of Milner's career by playing him right wing/midfield in his first season at Villa when EVERYONE else knew his best position was in the centre.
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Milner was a winger (left or right) or second striker before MON moved him to central midfield.
That's a fact.
He was never considered a central midfielder before MON moved him there.
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I thought that too Maz, but... but... obviously not. Everyone knew he'd make a great central midfielder all along, it seems.
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Occasionally for Newcastle, sure.
U21s? Don't recall that myself.
But anyway, I'll play and say yes: James Milner was an established central midfield player when we bought him from Newcastle and a nailed-on certainty to play for England at the 2010 World Cup. Martin O'Neill only used him last season as was blindingly obvious. Come to think of it, O'Neill was a fool - a fool! - for wasting a year of Milner's career by playing him right wing/midfield in his first season at Villa when EVERYONE else knew his best position was in the centre.
And we're only going to get a paltry £24m for him. What was MON thinking?
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Don't get me wrong, I am pretty annoyed that it's 11 days before the season starts and we're yet to get any signings, but I was saying the same last season, especially when we lost Barry.
But, personally, Warnock, Dunne and Collins made up for it. Adding Cuellar (yes, I know he's not a natural RB but I don't think he did that bad) and Big Brad to that defence is brilliant. Last season we amazed everyone by having one of the best defensive record's in the league ... until Chelsea.
I know that we have a small squad and that some of our players do get tired towards February, and for that we need more players, but I've always said that MON takes his time and snatches players at the right moment.
I agree that MON has perhaps lost the 'fire' that he had once he started, but I'm also losing all hope in football. Villa have had some great players, but bigger, better clubs come along and offer them double their wage and that's it - they want to up-and-leave.
When MON took over we were 13th (can someone clarify exact position?). Since then we have had 6th place every season. Yes, I would love to see that go to 4th but with the money MON has we cannot do that.
I am going to slightly contradict myself and say this though; I wish MON would stop playing around and get some more foreign players in. There's only so much affordable talent in the UK, and we can't get it all.
EDIT
I also agree that Heskey should be sold. And £24m for Milner is stupid money to turn down. Let his boots rot on their bench, that's what I say.
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MON took over after we finished 16th.
There are bigger clubs than Villa but none better and Man City are neither, just richer.
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There are bigger clubs than Villa but none better and Man City are neither, just richer.
I was referring to squad.
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I find that on here peoples views of his strengths and weaknesses aren't all that different, just a matter of how much importance you place on them
I find a huge amount of importance on the fact that he's invested nigh on £16m on Emile Heskey.
That decision alone is unforgiveable.
£3.5m fee plus a (reported) £60k a week for the 1.5 years he's been here = £8.18m. Whatever it is it's not well spent, but's lets at least try and keep the figures right.
Whatever way you look at it though Emile has been a condom on the prick of progress.
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Whatever way you look at it though Emile has been a condom on the prick of progress.
That is one of the best metaphore's I have ever read. Kudos to you, sir.
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He hasn't even been posh wank. Just plain old wank.
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Just Wank .................
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Whatever way you look at it though Emile has been a condom on the prick of progress.
That is one of the best metaphore's I have ever read. Kudos to you, sir.
hehe Excellent VS.
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Am I the only person who still rates, respects, and trusts MON?
I still love MON. And I'll be greatly saddened if/when he leaves.
However this pre-season he seems very subdued, possibly frustrated that other teams like Man City can just come in and take his crown jewels where we are powerless to stop them.
Don't worry, Barry will be back soon by all accounts.
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Am I the only person who still rates, respects, and trusts MON?
So much negativity. I know that he leaves his signings late but he's still a f****** great manager.
Without MON we'd still be mid-to-bottom of the table now.
And all this stuff about failed signings, at the end of the day every manager makes a mistake or two. Manager's have to see potential to sign someone and, unfortunately, they sometimes do not live up to that potential.
I still love MON. And I'll be greatly saddened if/when he leaves.[/quo
te]
No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
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I find that on here peoples views of his strengths and weaknesses aren't all that different, just a matter of how much importance you place on them
I find a huge amount of importance on the fact that he's invested nigh on £16m on Emile Heskey.
That decision alone is unforgiveable.
£3.5m fee plus a (reported) £60k a week for the 1.5 years he's been here = £8.18m. Whatever it is it's not well spent, but's lets at least try and keep the figures right.
I'm assuming that Doh'Neill's undying love for him will keep him at the club till the end of his contract.
Not to mention that I don't think he'll be in any rush to leave on the wages, he wouldn't get anything like that elsewhere.
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
Dear, dear Dave, you're forgetting the rules.
Rule 15a, sub section 7 clearly states
'The Club shall always be viewed as a massive concern, but only up to the point when the dismissal of the manager is discussed, then the phrase 'Who would want to join us, we'd do no better than Mark Hughes' must be used in all cases.'
'In the event of Mark Hughes taking stewardship of a club, the name Alan Curbishley may freely be mentioned.'
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
Dear, dear Dave, you're forgetting the rules.
Rule 15a, sub section 7 clearly states
'The Club shall always be viewed as a massive concern, but only up to the point when the dismissal of the manager is discussed, then the phrase 'Who would want to join us, we'd do no better than Mark Hughes' must be used in all cases.'
'In the event of Mark Hughes taking stewardship of a club, the name Alan Curbishley may freely be mentioned.'
Addendum 24b:
'In the event of Martin Jol being mentioned, scorn shall be poured on the idea, and his last few months in charge of Spurs shall be mentioned, whereas any talk of finishing 5th shall be ignored." Any other foreign manager can quickly and easily be laughed off with either of the following questions:
"Why would he leave his current club to take over Villa?" (for good managers) or "What's he ever won compared to O'Neill?" (for less established managers).'
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
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Rule 25 - Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan. Groan.
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
The cream of the World's managers.
Randy is more than capable of acquiring them.
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Rule 25 - Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan. Groan.
Rule 26
'Cringe with embarrasment at the amount of money being paid to Emile Heskey, a striker with all the predatory instincts of an empty crisp packet.'
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
Depends how you see the Villa. Believing us capable of much more that we're currently achieving, I would say all except maybe two dozen or so in Europe.
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
It doesn't matter, there isn't a vacancy.
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
It doesn't matter, there isn't a vacancy.
(Chris hugs himself with delight)
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
Depends how you see the Villa. Believing us capable of much more that we're currently achieving, I would say all except maybe two dozen or so in Europe.
Who in your opinion can get us into the top four or further based on our financial position as we think we see it at the present time and is attainable?
Is there anybody in English football?
Who would you say from Europe?
Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
Would be interested to read your views.
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Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
When?
And his first choice for manager before he realised everyone wanted MON was a German
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I'm pretty sure that O'Neill would object a tiny bit to being called English as well.
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Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
When? - Well, that's how I have viewed it from his actions to date - from your comment I'm obviously wrong!
And his first choice for manager before he realised everyone wanted MON was a German - Did he say this? If so, I'm obviously wrong to ask the question. I am on a bad run aren't I?
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I'm pretty sure that O'Neill would object a tiny bit to being called English as well.
Who said English. Suggest you go back and read again!
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I'm pretty sure that O'Neill would object a tiny bit to being called English as well.
Who said English. Suggest you go back and read again!
Where does the 'English values' bit come into it then?
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I'm pretty sure that O'Neill would object a tiny bit to being called English as well.
Who said English. Suggest you go back and read again!
Where does the 'English values' bit come into it then?
Traditional English club values.
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I think he is good, but it's not impossible that someone could do better. Take Hairy Ballsack at Tottenham as an example, much as i hate to admit it. In considerably less time he has taken them to a cup final and now got them in the Champions League, and crucially playing some pretty damn entertaining football in the process. They have a pretty similar budget to us, and needed some sorting out when he arrived (although they did have some talent in the ranks).
It's just that there are plenty that would do worse as well, so i think changing him would be a pretty big gamble. Unlike when O' Dreary was here, it couldn't have got much worse at that point.
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Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
When?
And his first choice for manager before he realised everyone wanted MON was a German
I had never heard this before now, is this true?
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I'm pretty sure that O'Neill would object a tiny bit to being called English as well.
Who said English. Suggest you go back and read again!
You did.
Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
Well, his current manager isn't English, so it's entirely possible he might appoint somebody else who isn't. What exactly are these "English values" anyway? We've got a kit deal with Nike, and are sponsored by a Cypriot foreign currency company.
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Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
When?
And his first choice for manager before he realised everyone wanted MON was a German
I had never heard this before now, is this true?
Word was he wanted Klinsmann.
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Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
When? - Well, that's how I have viewed it from his actions to date - from your comment I'm obviously wrong!
And his first choice for manager before he realised everyone wanted MON was a German - Did he say this? If so, I'm obviously wrong to ask the question. I am on a bad run aren't I?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering why and how he's done that?
EDIT first bit, I mean.
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Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
When?
And his first choice for manager before he realised everyone wanted MON was a German
I had never heard this before now, is this true?
Word was he wanted Klinsmann.
I think the word was he knows Kilinsmann well, but Klinsmann was not interested at the time because of commitments.
Commitments, he's now shed :)
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
Depends how you see the Villa. Believing us capable of much more that we're currently achieving, I would say all except maybe two dozen or so in Europe.
Who in your opinion can get us into the top four or further based on our financial position as we think we see it at the present time and is attainable?
Is there anybody in English football?
Who would you say from Europe?
Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
Would be interested to read your views.
I can't remember Randy saying that any of the values he wants to keep/instil at Villa would include hampering the club by limiting his choice of manager.
In England, Moyes and Hodgson, maybe Avram Grant. Possibly one of the younger breed of managers in time, such as Simon Grayson or Paul Lambert. Abroad there's Claudio Ranieri, Felix Magath, Delio Rossi, Gregorio Manzano, Quique Flores, Claude Puel, Ottmar Hitzfeld to name a few who are experienced and would maybe fancy a crack at the Premier League. I also think a few clubs will be looking at how Steve McClaren gets on at Wolfsburg.
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Hmm, this is becoming the stuff of legend now. Milner was shunted all over the place at Newcastle - right wing, left wing, centre mid, second striker. He didn't have an extended run at centre mid. When we signed him he was seen as a right winger/midfielder. When, this time last year, we debated Barry's replacement and Milner was touted as a candidate for centre midfield, there were many who rubbished the idea.
Not really Merv.
There were a number of Newcastle fans who came on here around the time he signed and said his best form for them had been in the centre. MON then said himself last summer that Milner had been badgering him to play in the centre and felt it would be a natural transition in time.
You say many rubbished the idea, I'm sure a few did. But I recall many threads with probable formations (oh what fun they are) with Jimmy in a more central role. As a winger he doesn't have a good enough turn of pace, tricks or delivery to be truly top class. But the qualities he has -good engine, fantastic work rate, good range of passing, not afraid to shoot, are all things you'd look for in a CM.
I'm not reluctant to give MON praise when due - I have - in this very thread. He just doesn't need to be made out to be some kind of visionary re team selection/ positioning et.c. When he's pretty much only doing the obvious or trying what has already been done before.
I'll throw in another one into the plus column that I omitted yesterday: he is the first manager I can recall that has got us to go to places like the Emirates and Old Trafford and almost expect a result. We might have pinched victories here and there under BFR at Anfield and Highbury -and with JG at Anfield. But last season many tipped us to win at Old Trafford - and we did (of course their injury crisis might have had something to do with it, but still). We were also tipped by most pundits to go to the Emirates and win a few weeks later. We didn't of course, but it does indicate a change in how we are perceived and expectations across the board.
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I bet a higher percentage of Villa fans were not saying that last season at wembley for the league cup final. To come out with a stat " a large percentage", based on the fans out at Portugal is ludicrous. I base my opinion on 42 years of following the Villa therefore my contribution has more gravitas than a large percentage of the posters on here. Seems to work all ways this plucking fictitious percentages out of the air!
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The end is Bill.....
(http://www.fitceleb.com/files/images/bill_nighy2.jpg)
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I can't remember Randy saying that any of the values he wants to keep/instil at Villa would include hampering the club by limiting his choice of manager.
In England, Moyes and Hodgson, maybe Avram Grant. Possibly one of the younger breed of managers in time, such as Simon Grayson or Paul Lambert. Abroad there's Claudio Ranieri, Felix Magath, Delio Rossi, Gregorio Manzano, Quique Flores, Claude Puel, Ottmar Hitzfeld to name a few who are experienced and would maybe fancy a crack at the Premier League. I also think a few clubs will be looking at how Steve McClaren gets on at Wolfsburg.
Throw in Michael Laudrup to that list as well.
Was the manager the Scandinavian consortium wanted back in 2006, and he was keen on the job then -when the club was in a far worse state.
His background in the game, the way he approached it and the clubs he's represented probably give him a certain idea of how football should be played.
So far in his managerial career he's taken Brondby to the League title and CL qualification in Denmark, got lowly Getafe to a Spanish cup final and the latter stages of the UEFA Cup and managed in Russia with Spartak.
Currently at Mallorca, so will be interesting to see how he does this year.
Not an obvious candidate by any means, but going that route hasn't always served us well in the past.
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Always nice to see the fans get behind the team before a new season.
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With a username like that I'm sure you see the irony.
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No I'll be saddened too.Unfortunately I don't think people will realise how lucky we were to have him til he's gone and we've got some muppet in charge
What makes you think that a) those who want him gone aren't fully aware of his capabilites and b) we couldn't get a better manager?
who is available and attainable ??
Depends how you see the Villa. Believing us capable of much more that we're currently achieving, I would say all except maybe two dozen or so in Europe.
Who in your opinion can get us into the top four or further based on our financial position as we think we see it at the present time and is attainable?
Is there anybody in English football?
Who would you say from Europe?
Randy Lerner has set out to build a future based on traditional English values so do you think he would take on a manager from outside England?
Would be interested to read your views.
I can't remember Randy saying that any of the values he wants to keep/instil at Villa would include hampering the club by limiting his choice of manager.
In England, Moyes and Hodgson, maybe Avram Grant. Possibly one of the younger breed of managers in time, such as Simon Grayson or Paul Lambert. Abroad there's Claudio Ranieri, Felix Magath, Delio Rossi, Gregorio Manzano, Quique Flores, Claude Puel, Ottmar Hitzfeld to name a few who are experienced and would maybe fancy a crack at the Premier League. I also think a few clubs will be looking at how Steve McClaren gets on at Wolfsburg.
Thanks for your straight answer, Dave, rather than an answer with a question like some.
Looking back at what I wrote, perhaps I should have said that it looked to me as though Randy was trying to rebuild the club as a traditional English club.
It is very obvious there is a limited number of managers in English football that can take us forward and improve on our current position with what looks like limited financial backing. Villa like many other PL clubs are stuck with players they cannot shift due to high wages and this is causing a lack of liquidity in the market.
From your UK based managers I would say that Moyes would see us as offering a no better job than the one at Everton. Hodgson will be a few seasons at Liverpool unless he fails but then would we want a manager that failed at Liverpool and then expect him to succeed at Villa. Grant may be but I think the fans would not put up with his dour personality. The younger managers would be too much of a risk at this point in time and this topic is talking about the situation at this point in time.
So that leaves Europe and a string of well qualified managers. The problem is that it is well known that the PL is a difficult place to manage and I believe that most European managers would want a very good offer to come here. Not financial like SGE but a club with clout in the transfer market. Do we have that now, I am starting to doubt it. Don't get me wrong, I still think we have money to spend but not top four clout. That then leaves the up and coming young European managers and the risk that they would bring.
So that leaves your final suggestion and it had crossed my mind before. A good coach but has his management skills improved since his mauling as England manager. He looks as though he is trying to rebuild his CV away from the English media and looks to be succeeding. One day he will want to come back to the PL.
The question is hypothetical in my mind anyway as I am sure MON is here for at least another season. If we stay top 7/8 and he changes the side from last season, I think he will be here for more than this season as well. Randy Lerner has put a lot of money into the club and I do not see him as a gambler that would risk a lot on changing the manager unless he completely fails. It is so much easier being an internet supporter.
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Avram Grant was a very good shout and was unlucky at Chelsea and had the rug pulled from under his feet at Portsmouth.
But alternatively maybe we should also be looking at coaches? Steve Clarke is one is is always talked about highly by anyone within the game.
But as for managers in England its hard to say because those at the top won't go down, those on our level won't necessarily see it attractive to move sideways so it doesn't leave a lot.
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I think David Moyes would jump at the chance to take on a club like us, without the financial problems he has at Everton. I also think there's a lot of top European managers who would welcome a Premier League club on their CV, even before the daft wages they'd pick up.
But as OMVF said, it's all hypothetical for the moment because there doesn't seem much chance of Martin leaving.
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I think David Moyes would jump at the chance to take on a club like us, without the financial problems he has at Everton. I also think there's a lot of top European managers who would welcome a Premier League club on their CV, even before the daft wages they'd pick up.
But as OMVF said, it's all hypothetical for the moment because there doesn't seem much chance of Martin leaving.
I can't agree with that Dave. Moyes is biding his time for the Man Utd job, no doubt, and a move to a club that have been a graveyard for managers with good reputations would be very risky.
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If you look at the route Arsenal took with Wenger, and the success they've had it doesn't always pay to go the obvious route.
Even United selecting Fergie was a bold choice at the time, he'd never played or managed in England and had only managed smallish sides in Scotland (with some pretty spectacular success in Europe admittedly).
I hope that any search would be extensive, not just throwing up the same names (Not suggesting Dave was doing that BTW).
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I think David Moyes would jump at the chance to take on a club like us, without the financial problems he has at Everton. I also think there's a lot of top European managers who would welcome a Premier League club on their CV, even before the daft wages they'd pick up.
But as OMVF said, it's all hypothetical for the moment because there doesn't seem much chance of Martin leaving.
I can't agree with that Dave. Moyes is biding his time for the Man Utd job, no doubt, and a move to a club that have been a graveyard for managers with good reputations would be very risky.
Ain't no way they'll go for an English-based manager and especially not one with little European experience.
Mangers with good reputations? The only one I can think of who arrived here with a reputation he didn't enhance was O'Numpty. McNeill arguably, but he'd done nothing in England before then.
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Ain't no way they'll go for an English-based manager and especially not one with little European experience..
It’s a good enough point Dave but I will turn it on its head and say the words “Pep” and “Guardiola”. Though I do think that he is the exception to the rule.
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Ain't no way they'll go for an English-based manager and especially not one with little European experience..
It’s a good enough point Dave but I will turn it on its head and say the words “Pep” and “Guardiola”. Though I do think that he is the exception to the rule.
Manchester United are too arrogant to accept that there's anything or anyone in England that they could possible want or need. And a Scouser in charge?
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There are just a few managers of clubs in the world who would possible turn us down.
A handful of the elite in England, the two giants of Spain, the two Milan clubs, Juventus, AS Roma perhaps, and then Bayern Munich.
Any other club's managers from across Europe and the rest of the world would all be attracted of taking over at a club like Villa in what’s so commonly viewed as the best league in the world. And it’s not as if we don’t have the financial backing to back it up with nowadays.
Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
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Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
The irony is that quite frequently the very same people who spend most of the time telling us that the manager has done a great job, and the club has improved beyond all recognition over the last four years then tell us that, should we look to replace MON, we'd be poking around the Curbishleys of this world.
That doesn't quite stack up.
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Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
The irony is that quite frequently the very same people who spend most of the time telling us that the manager has done a great job, and the club has improved beyond all recognition over the last four years then tell us that, should we look to replace MON, we'd be poking around the Curbishleys of this world.
That doesn't quite stack up.
It's like when the people who think sixth is an achievement call those of us who think we can do better the negative ones.
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There are just a few managers of clubs in the world who would possible turn us down.
A handful of the elite in England, the two giants of Spain, the two Milan clubs, Juventus, AS Roma perhaps, and then Bayern Munich.
Any other club's managers from across Europe and the rest of the world would all be attracted of taking over at a club like Villa in what’s so commonly viewed as the best league in the world. And it’s not as if we don’t have the financial backing to back it up with nowadays.
Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
The trouble is that top managers from around Europe have set themselves on career paths to manage the clubs you have highlighted and also their own national team. Some see the PL as too much of a risk that could ruin their future career. In addition to this they would have to out perform clubs that are quite a way ahead of us either financially or in name.
I am not saying that there are not top quality managers ouside of these but it will be a long term project (in the life of a football manager) and there are few European managers that would be in it for the long haul.
In short, I do not think there is a stand out manager that would be a shoe-in for the job.
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Then we might as well just all give up now then. We aint big enough to attract the manager of Anderlecht, Feyenord, Sampdoria, Lyon, Gatafe, Fenerbache... need I go on?
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Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
The irony is that quite frequently the very same people who spend most of the time telling us that the manager has done a great job, and the club has improved beyond all recognition over the last four years then tell us that, should we look to replace MON, we'd be poking around the Curbishleys of this world.
That doesn't quite stack up.
It's like when the people who think sixth is an achievement call those of us who think we can do better the negative ones.
We can do better and you always have to aim higher, although sometimes you do not succeed. It is the time to get there and how we do it that is the arguement. Supporters in many cases are impatient for success and suggest it is easier than it actually is.
I am willing to wait if I can see a progressive plan. I thought we had that but things have slipped a little from that path. If I am honest, I would say reaching 3rd place the season before last was too soon, both for the club and the supporters. We over achieved and the only way after that was down. Some accepted it as a setback, others haven't.
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In hindsight, did we really need a five-year plan when Lerner arrived- or just a manager who could have come in and really shook up the place in his first season?
And what about the next time we appoint a manager- the same question again…
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I don't think our supporters are impatient - in fact, the opposite. The majority have seen a couple of years of little or no improvement and seemingly remain behind the man in charge. I've said before that with the set-up we have there's a manager who could get us into the top four consistently and the secret is finding him, unless of course he's here already.
Here's another left-field potential manager - Peter Schmeichel.
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Then we might as well just all give up now then. We aint big enough to attract the manager of Anderlecht, Feyenord, Sampdoria, Lyon, Gatafe, Fenerbache... need I go on?
Who said anything about giving up. As I insinuated earlier the next manager by default will most likely be from outside the UK. If the managers position became available there will inevitably be somebody unexpected that pops up as well.
We have to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that we are not as big a club as we think we are at times.
I do not go with the line that any man and his dog from Europe is better than the current manager though. So that narrows the field somewhat.
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Think MON is in for the long haul. Lerner has a certain respect for him. I know that can diminish if results dont happen but still think he would stick by him regardless ....
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That is very left field Dave. I was thinking of a left field one also earlier today, although when you think about it its possible not that left field at all because of the obvious connections. Gareth Southgate with Brian Little in some sort of prominent capacity.
This could be a whole new thread...
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That is very left field Dave. I was thinking of a left field one also earlier today, although when you think about it its possible not that left field at all because of the obvious connections. Gareth Southgate with Brian Little in some sort of prominent capacity.
This could be a whole new thread...
There's a good manager in Southgate if Boro hasn't put him off. Then again, I said much the same about Andy Townsend. TV's a much more reliable income.
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Yes for a while it did look a possibility that Townsend was going to use his experience and obvious talents by being directly involved within the game. A pity he took the comfy option.
This is the current state of the club for me. I’m only able to think positive about the future when we are discussing who could be the next manager. However leftfield the suggestions may be.
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You just like making banners.
I wonder how many potentially top-rate managers will be lost to the comfy sofa option.
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No more orange cloth left.
I’m not sure how managers have been lost to the comfy TV sofa, but I bet Merson wishes he had discovered it sooner.
And why wasn’t Mon on a World Cup sofa this summer? Was he too busy scouting a load of foreigners?
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Mons producer friend defected to itv and min felt it would be disloyal to go there after working on the BBC so decided against being a pundit!
I think the next boss will be foreign and jol, magath, klinsmann, laudrup and Eriksson would all probably jump at the chance if offered it- Aston villa are a very attractive club , and deserve better than martin o neill.
I thank him for his 4 yrs and taking us as far as he did but he will not take us any higher.
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That is very left field Dave. I was thinking of a left field one also earlier today, although when you think about it its possible not that left field at all because of the obvious connections. Gareth Southgate with Brian Little in some sort of prominent capacity.
This could be a whole new thread...
There's a good manager in Southgate if Boro hasn't put him off. Then again, I said much the same about Andy Townsend. TV's a much more reliable income.
Agreed with Southgate. Not sure if I'd want brian Little back unless he was given the job he wanted. In this 'new' villa revolution I think that 4/5 years in Little coming back would create a buzz around the place again - I'm not just talking about as manager - maybe in the 'go between' position. But is that him? Does he have the credentials to do the job?
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Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
The irony is that quite frequently the very same people who spend most of the time telling us that the manager has done a great job, and the club has improved beyond all recognition over the last four years then tell us that, should we look to replace MON, we'd be poking around the Curbishleys of this world.
That doesn't quite stack up.
It's like when the people who think sixth is an achievement call those of us who think we can do better the negative ones.
I think finishing 6th for 4 seasons running is a success. It's only a matter of time before we break through.
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I don't think our supporters are impatient - in fact, the opposite. The majority have seen a couple of years of little or no improvement and seemingly remain behind the man in charge. I've said before that with the set-up we have there's a manager who could get us into the top four consistently and the secret is finding him, unless of course he's here already.
Here's another left-field potential manager - Peter Schmeichel.
Here's another, Kate Winslet.
Whenever I've heard hom as a pundit he comes across as pretty cluless and only want to talk about Manu and Manu players.
The time to discuss potential manager is when the vacancy arises, I remember not so long back you were advocating Paul Jewell but I doubt he'd be in the top 30 now. The stock of potential managers rises and falls so if we get a vacancy this time next year then people we talk about now might have blotted their copybooks and others might look better bets.
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I think finishing 6th for 4 seasons running is a success. It's only a matter of time before we break through.
In pure footballing terms, how do you figure that running 6th for consecutive seasons is a success?
And you think 'time' is the answer to cracking the Top 4?
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I'm not reluctant to give MON praise when due - I have - in this very thread. He just doesn't need to be made out to be some kind of visionary re team selection/ positioning et.c. When he's pretty much only doing the obvious or trying what has already been done before.
I haven't claimed him as a visionary, either, that's certainly way too strong. We'll have to agree to disagree on Milner's previous time at CM; I remember something else. What I was trying to get across was a response to the question of whether Martin was capable of getting the best out of players. Milner would be one of those who has played the best football of his career under O'Neill and taken his game to a whole new level since being at Villa.
Formations is an interesting one. There's very little around that's fresh and innovative. This 4-5-1/4-3-3 is in vogue right now. Interestingly, it was O'Neill who introduced it at Villa, with the Gabby-Angel-Luke Moore formation and, later on, he's used a midfield trio with two wide attacking players and a lone striker (Gabby, mostly) quite a lot. At the World Cup, that kind of formation was raved about. It's what the brightest coaches were using.
It's a shame we used 4-4-2 so often last season, but I think MON has shown several times that he's not quite the tactical dinosaur many think. I just hope, moving forward, he's not reluctant to experiment again.
Finally, I guess my major concern about MON right now is his relationship with players - he seems to either love or hate those in this squad and it does seem that if someone crosses him once, that's it. It's actually starting to cost us some multi-million talent who have reportedly fallen out with O'Neill. Now we've got trouble moving them on.
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I don't think our supporters are impatient - in fact, the opposite. The majority have seen a couple of years of little or no improvement and seemingly remain behind the man in charge. I've said before that with the set-up we have there's a manager who could get us into the top four consistently and the secret is finding him, unless of course he's here already.
Here's another left-field potential manager - Peter Schmeichel.
Here's another, Kate Winslet.
Whenever I've heard hom as a pundit he comes across as pretty cluless and only want to talk about Manu and Manu players.
I'd have thought he'd be more interesting on the subject of Chinese food.
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Schmeichel should stay in the left field. With his pigs.
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If we are talking about Brian Little coming back then although I loved his time as manager I think the game has moved on and I wouldn't see it working.
If we wanted to employ a Villa man as manager then why not promote Sid Cowans and Kevin McDonald. As far as I can see they have done as good a job as any coaches in the country in the last 5 years.
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If we are talking about Brian Little coming back then although I loved his time as manager I think the game has moved on and I wouldn't see it working.
If we wanted to employ a Villa man as manager then why not promote Sid Cowans and Kevin McDonald. As far as I can see they have done as good a job as any coaches in the country in the last 5 years.
Not that I feel its time to part company with MON yet but if that ever happens this wouldn't be a bad idea at all.
I doubt it would be all that popular though, at first.
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I really don't think we'd be even discussing alternative managers if we had the right coaches at the club. As I said last season, I think Martin needs help in this department but for whatever reason, he seems reluctant to change or add to his staff. In the end, he'll only have himself to blame.
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If we are talking about Brian Little coming back then although I loved his time as manager I think the game has moved on and I wouldn't see it working.
If we wanted to employ a Villa man as manager then why not promote Sid Cowans and Kevin McDonald. As far as I can see they have done as good a job as any coaches in the country in the last 5 years.
Cowans has done a good job working under Tony McAndrew but there is no evidence that he's either ready or willing to be a manager, it's a completely different job.
As for Kevin McDonald, what coaching does he actually do? My understanding is that most of the players train with the first team squad and he just has to make do with who is made available for reserve games. I might be mistaken but again I don't see this as the right preparation to manage a top 6 PL team.
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If we are talking about Brian Little coming back then although I loved his time as manager I think the game has moved on and I wouldn't see it working.
If we wanted to employ a Villa man as manager then why not promote Sid Cowans and Kevin McDonald. As far as I can see they have done as good a job as any coaches in the country in the last 5 years.
Not that I feel its time to part company with MON yet but if that ever happens this wouldn't be a bad idea at all.
I doubt it would be all that popular though, at first.
If, as you suggest Maz, that developing the kids is the key to our future success, then this would be a logical step.
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Exactly.
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Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
The irony is that quite frequently the very same people who spend most of the time telling us that the manager has done a great job, and the club has improved beyond all recognition over the last four years then tell us that, should we look to replace MON, we'd be poking around the Curbishleys of this world.
That doesn't quite stack up.
It's like when the people who think sixth is an achievement call those of us who think we can do better the negative ones.
Three wise men.
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Sorry, I seem to be a bit behind the times.
From the look of it here, MON has already been dismissed and arguments are already breaking out about who we appoint to replace him.
I hope you are going to do a North Korean on MON as well. I suggest he is paraded in front of the Holte End on friday night to be publicly criticised by each member of the first team. Then he can be banished to do hard labour on a building site somewhere.
Played 190 Won 80 Drawn 60 Lost 50.
What a loser he is !
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Quiet simply I find it an insult when some fans ask whom else could we attract. We have nearly the world to pick from.
The irony is that quite frequently the very same people who spend most of the time telling us that the manager has done a great job, and the club has improved beyond all recognition over the last four years then tell us that, should we look to replace MON, we'd be poking around the Curbishleys of this world.
That doesn't quite stack up.
It's like when the people who think sixth is an achievement call those of us who think we can do better the negative ones.
I don't think anyone thinks we couldn't do any better, but I do have an issue with those who think three consecutive top 6 finishes is easy and refuse to give the manager any credit for it.
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Sorry, I seem to be a bit behind the times.
From the look of it here, MON has already been dismissed and arguments are already breaking out about who we appoint to replace him.
I hope you are going to do a North Korean on MON as well. I suggest he is paraded in front of the Holte End on friday night to be publicly criticised by each member of the first team. Then he can be banished to do hard labour on a building site somewhere.
Played 190 Won 80 Drawn 60 Lost 50.
What a loser he is !
Not at all. Someone said we wouldn't get a suitable replacemnt when the time comes, and since then we've been discussing what replacements would be available.
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I don't think anyone thinks we couldn't do any better
You have to be joking.
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I don't think anyone thinks we couldn't do any better
You have to be joking.
Well, each side of any argument will have it's extremes, but I'd like to think that even those most adamant MON supporters see 6th as a midway point between where we were and where we're trying to get to.
The difference comes it terms of whether Martin can get us there or not.
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Sorry, I seem to be a bit behind the times.
From the look of it here, MON has already been dismissed and arguments are already breaking out about who we appoint to replace him.
I hope you are going to do a North Korean on MON as well. I suggest he is paraded in front of the Holte End on friday night to be publicly criticised by each member of the first team. Then he can be banished to do hard labour on a building site somewhere.
Played 190 Won 80 Drawn 60 Lost 50.
What a loser he is !
Not at all. Someone said we wouldn't get a suitable replacemnt when the time comes, and since then we've been discussing what replacements would be available.
Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
I would hope and expect, like all well run businesses we have a contingency plan in place.
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
Why not? That's what we're here for.
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I don't think anyone thinks we couldn't do any better
You have to be joking.
Well, each side of any argument will have it's extremes, but I'd like to think that even those most adamant MON supporters see 6th as a midway point between where we were and where we're trying to get to.
That's exactly it. It comes down to degrees of patience. Some of us are content that we're moving in the right direction and are happy with incremental improvements, others think the pace of change should be quicker. Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
I would hope and expect, like all well run businesses we have a contingency plan in place.
Football is not like any other business. Any contingency plan relating to the playing and management side of any football club can be made redundant within days/hours by events and results.
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
I would hope and expect, like all well run businesses we have a contingency plan in place.
Football is not like any other business. Any contingency plan relating to the playing and management side of any football club can be made redundant within days/hours by events and results.
Which is why it would have to be updated on a regular basis. It's the most important appointment of the Club/Company so I can't imagine we don't pay somebody to track and monitor potential future managers.
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
Why not? That's what we're here for.
True, I have no wish to stifle free speech. Anyway by saying why bother discussing it, I am probably being counter productive and perpetuating the debate even more.
Incidentally the reason I am here right now is because work is really really boring and slow today.
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
I would hope and expect, like all well run businesses we have a contingency plan in place.
Football is not like any other business. Any contingency plan relating to the playing and management side of any football club can be made redundant within days/hours by events and results.
Which is why it would have to be updated on a regular basis. It's the most important appointment of the Club/Company so I can't imagine we don't pay somebody to track and monitor potential future managers.
They could pay us then to do it. I bet we would all love to be paid to do a job like that.
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
I would hope and expect, like all well run businesses we have a contingency plan in place.
Football is not like any other business. Any contingency plan relating to the playing and management side of any football club can be made redundant within days/hours by events and results.
Which is why it would have to be updated on a regular basis. It's the most important appointment of the Club/Company so I can't imagine we don't pay somebody to track and monitor potential future managers.
They could pay us then to do it. I bet we would all love to be paid to do a job like that.
As long as they don't give the job to Chris Smith, why not.
Can you imagine..
Paul Faulkner: Morning Chris. Have you got the list of Managers?
Chris: I sure have Paul. I think you're going to like it. His name is Martin O'Neill.
Paul: Chris, yesterday he signed a five year contract at Newcastle.
Chris: He's the best man for the job.
Paul: But he's just left us, we need to replace him.
Chris: We don't need to replace him we just need to bring him back.
Paul: We can't do that, even if he was prepared to come back we'd have to pay Newcastle millions in compensation.
Chris: He's worth it.
Paul: No Chris, we can't do it. Don't you have any other names on your list?
Chris: You asked for the best, I've given you the best.
Paul: What about foriegn managers?
Chris: Oh please! The last thing we want is their fancy-dan football and their ten billion passing game going no where.
Paul: Really?
Chris: Trust me. The Villa fans would hate it.
Paul: So after 10 months, the only name you can come up with is Martin O'Neill? Chris, this is not good enough, I want my money back.
Chris: Well there is this Irish bloke living in Wetherby near Harrogate that could probably do the job. Lovely fella.
Paul: You don't mean..?
Chris: David O'Leary. He's waiting outside.
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Which is why it would have to be updated on a regular basis. It's the most important appointment of the Club/Company so I can't imagine we don't pay somebody to track and monitor potential future managers.
Seriously, does ANYONE do this? Liverpool's old boot room policy and the impending SAF retirement aside, did Fulham scout for Roy possibly going during last season? Have Everton got the new Moyes lined up? No, I think the very fact that once a manager goes you usually have a coupe of weeks before a replacement comes in suggests that isn't how things work. The exception being when you're planning to pull the trigger and start thinking about it before you do, which is not a position we are in.
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Which is why it would have to be updated on a regular basis. It's the most important appointment of the Club/Company so I can't imagine we don't pay somebody to track and monitor potential future managers.
Seriously, does ANYONE do this? Liverpool's old boot room policy and the impending SAF retirement aside, did Fulham scout for Roy possibly going during last season? Have Everton got the new Moyes lined up? No, I think the very fact that once a manager goes you usually have a coupe of weeks before a replacement comes in suggests that isn't how things work. The exception being when you're planning to pull the trigger and start thinking about it before you do, which is not a position we are in.
A contingency plan covers more than sacking the current manager. Given the lack of football people inside the boardroom at Villa Park, do you really think they'd leave it to chance?
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Why discuss something that could be years and years away ? I very much doubt its on the agenda at VP with the powers that be.
I would hope and expect, like all well run businesses we have a contingency plan in place.
Football is not like any other business. Any contingency plan relating to the playing and management side of any football club can be made redundant within days/hours by events and results.
Exactly things change very quickly in football - so why do you think any threat to O'Neill's position could be years and years away? Who'd have thought Jol would have been out at Spurs a few months after securing his second 5th place with them? And why is it such a bad idea to have a plan in place, or at least a few ideas of likely successors, just in case results or other factors make his position untenable in the shorter term?
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A contingency plan covers more than sacking the current manager. Given the lack of football people inside the boardroom at Villa Park, do you really think they'd leave it to chance?
How is it 'leaving it to chance'? All I'm saying is that most clubs who lose their manager unexpectedly then start the process of finding and recruiting a new manager, not draw a name out of a hat as they're short on time!!
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A contingency plan covers more than sacking the current manager. Given the lack of football people inside the boardroom at Villa Park, do you really think they'd leave it to chance?
How is it 'leaving it to chance'? All I'm saying is that most clubs who lose their manager unexpectedly then start the process of finding and recruiting a new manager, not draw a name out of a hat as they're short on time!!
I think they can have a plan of how they will go about finding a replacement but not about who it will be. Doug had been through it so many times I'm sure it ran on auto-pilot but Randy has never actively recruited a manager so he needs to have a plan of what he would do if Risso assasinates MON over the weekend.
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Randy has not been afraid to pull the trigger on coaches at Cleveland browns and I'm sure he won't hesitate here when he feels the time has come, there were reports that he consulted klinnsman before buying villa and I'm sure he would consult football people before appointing a successor.
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Randy has not been afraid to pull the trigger on coaches at Cleveland browns and I'm sure he won't hesitate here when he feels the time has come, there were reports that he consulted klinnsman before buying villa and I'm sure he would consult football people before appointing a successor.
Exactly. I'm guessing he's not in the same post code as thinking that way at the moment.
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A contingency plan covers more than sacking the current manager. Given the lack of football people inside the boardroom at Villa Park, do you really think they'd leave it to chance?
How is it 'leaving it to chance'? All I'm saying is that most clubs who lose their manager unexpectedly then start the process of finding and recruiting a new manager, not draw a name out of a hat as they're short on time!!
I think they can have a plan of how they will go about finding a replacement but not about who it will be. Doug had been through it so many times I'm sure it ran on auto-pilot but Randy has never actively recruited a manager so he needs to have a plan of what he would do if Risso assasinates MON over the weekend.
I'll be assassinating you first for that atrocious spelling.
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MON hasn't lost the dressing room yet, purely because he marginalises all the players who openly criticise him - the shoreys, the luke youngs, the reo-cokers...
i couldn't believe our annual wage bill when compared to everton and spurs, both of whom i expect to finish higher than us this season. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/aug/02/pre-season-preview-aston-villa
personally speaking, i would take mid-table obscurity in the short-term if it meant reducing the club's wage bill and developing youth, whether bringing them through ourselves or buying in young talent.
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I think I've lost my competitive edge. I've completely accepted where we are; never gonna catch manure chelski or arse. Probably be left by citeh this time. Battle with everton,liverpool and spurs for the scrap
s, which means I'll see lots of wins against all the rest. Sorted
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Ok, I have to ask this question because each thread is degenerating into a pit of sorrow. Oh poor us, we're shit. Our players are shit and so is the manager. The kit is bollocks, the tickets are too pricey, the manager doesn't care about transfers, we got battered vs Benfica, we have Heskey and Sidwell, the greatest RB ever Luke Young is leaving, Milner wants out, Warnock hates MON, Bannan's too small, John Robertson smokes too much, and the poor bull in the "promotional" ad for the Valencia game. Add to that we haven't signed anyone, and we might sign Keane and McGeady you get the impression sometimes that we are royally fucked this season.
Honestly, everyone. We finished 6th last year, and no team below us has done enough in my opinion to get that much closer. That includes Liverpool signing Joe Cole. Add to that Spurs are not that much better with who they have added. Are they better, yes, but not to cause this much distress and anguish. Man City stand alone in all of this, and the question will be their chemistry. Can they sustain it? Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal are better than us, and will be again.
Seriously everyone. Is it really that bad or are some of us making way too much of this? We're all Villa fans and we want the same thing, but sometimes this is too much misery. It really isn't that bad.
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An excellent post, TV.
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Of course it isn't too bad.
The kits a bit ugly, but I don't really care.
The match day tickets are a bit pricey
Luke Young is leaving, he's good going forward.
The football is shit
We seem to sign our players from a very limited pool of talent.
Milner is leaving.
But ...
The season tickets are good value
Cuellar is a good defender
We're in Europe
We're a decent, hard to beat side
Milner will make us a big profit if we sell
It is only black and white if you make it that way.
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I think its boredom that exacerbates it. This is a football messageboard and we’re football fans- but there is no football to discuss, only the unsavoury paraphernalia that surrounds its absence. Its dull and its depressing.
When we can moan or sing with joy about the actual football again, things will brighten up. Or not.
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Of course it isn't too bad.
The kits a bit ugly, but I don't really care.
The match day tickets are a bit pricey
Luke Young is leaving, he's good going forward.
The football is shit
We seem to sign our players from a very limited pool of talent.
Milner is leaving.
But ...
The season tickets are good value
Cuellar is a good defender
We're in Europe
We're a decent, hard to beat side
Milner will make us a big profit if we sell
It is only black and white if you make it that way.
Now Luke Young isn't leaving. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
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He isn't?!
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He isn't?!
Not today. Dave said so.
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Here's a slither of good news for you, VT:
Downing talking about Albrighton..
“Do I think he’s going to run Ashley and I close? Yes, obviously he’s done very well. He’s a good player.
“The manager has said he will give people a chance if they are playing well – and he is – so we’ll have to be on our toes.
“He’s obviously got the ability. He’s scored some good goals, the biggest thing for him is to get a run in the team.
“The manager will play him, I know he likes him so me and Ashley had better stay sharp, because if we’re not he’ll put him in.”
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Here's a slither of good news for you, VT:
Downing talking about Albrighton..
“Do I think he’s going to run Ashley and I close? Yes, obviously he’s done very well. He’s a good player.
“The manager has said he will give people a chance if they are playing well – and he is – so we’ll have to be on our toes.
“He’s obviously got the ability. He’s scored some good goals, the biggest thing for him is to get a run in the team.
“The manager will play him, I know he likes him so me and Ashley had better stay sharp, because if we’re not he’ll put him in.”
That is good news.
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I don't think anyone thinks we couldn't do any better
You have to be joking.
Well, each side of any argument will have it's extremes, but I'd like to think that even those most adamant MON supporters see 6th as a midway point between where we were and where we're trying to get to.
Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.
What action on Mr. Lerner's part gives you that impression?
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We can do better than MON, and MON couldn't do better than us.
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Here's a slither of good news for you, VT:
Downing talking about Albrighton..
“Do I think he’s going to run Ashley and I close? Yes, obviously he’s done very well. He’s a good player.
“The manager has said he will give people a chance if they are playing well – and he is – so we’ll have to be on our toes.
“He’s obviously got the ability. He’s scored some good goals, the biggest thing for him is to get a run in the team.
“The manager will play him, I know he likes him so me and Ashley had better stay sharp, because if we’re not he’ll put him in.”
Hmm
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Don't spoil the only bit of good news to come out of Villa Park this summer, you miserablist!
Edit: More good news, Albrighton has been called up for the first time for the England U21's. Well done, lad.
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Finally, I guess my major concern about MON right now is his relationship with players - he seems to either love or hate those in this squad and it does seem that if someone crosses him once, that's it. It's actually starting to cost us some multi-million talent who have reportedly fallen out with O'Neill. Now we've got trouble moving them on.
Aye, it's a pretty big weakness.
He wont sign foreign mercenary-types and fair enough. If one of the benefits of having a predominantly British side is team spirit there's a fair degree of logic to that.
Dickie Dunne could probably tell you a thing or two about divided dressing rooms. During his time at Citeh the foreign lot would barely mix with the British/Irish lot. We don't need that.
Where it falls down though is if he sticks to good ol' reliable British players - and falls out with them anyway.
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why is it that the majority of everton players are resigning to play for everton?I am open to the suggestion that david moyes is a better manager than mon without totally agreeing.It certainly isnt the ground they play at as it is a dump or the signings they made this or last year or the fact that they had a better season last year than us so without knowing the answer myself,why is it there isnt the same negativity resonating fron goodison as from villa park?I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
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i couldn't believe our annual wage bill when compared to everton and spurs, both of whom i expect to finish higher than us this season. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/aug/02/pre-season-preview-aston-villa
This fact has been quoted quite frequently on here. It puzzled me as to why we are spending considerably more on wages and then I read this http://astonvilla-views.com/2010/08/02/the-wage-debate-and-especially-in-comparison-to-spurs/.
It would appear that one of the reasons why we spend more than Spurs is that we employ over 60% more staff than Spurs, although 14no. less playing and football staff.
Considering that we are a similar size club to Spurs e.g. ground size, training facilities etc. you have to wonder why we employ so many more. Could this be explained by different emloyment methods i.e. Villa employ everybody directly whereas Spurs subcontract work to a service provider and it appears elsewhere in the accounts.
Also, I read the other day about Spurs paying image rights to players, particularly foreign players, in lieu of part wages as a small tax dodge. Would this appear in a different part of the accounts.
Perhaps one of you knowledgeable guys on football club accounts could comment.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
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Also, I read the other day about Spurs paying image rights to players, particularly foreign players, in lieu of part wages as a small tax dodge. Would this appear in a different part of the accounts.
I think you probably read that on here from someone who refuses to acknowledge the fact - fact - that our wage bill is bigger than Spurs.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.
I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.
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i couldn't believe our annual wage bill when compared to everton and spurs, both of whom i expect to finish higher than us this season. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/aug/02/pre-season-preview-aston-villa
This fact has been quoted quite frequently on here. It puzzled me as to why we are spending considerably more on wages and then I read this http://astonvilla-views.com/2010/08/02/the-wage-debate-and-especially-in-comparison-to-spurs/.
It would appear that one of the reasons why we spend more than Spurs is that we employ over 60% more staff than Spurs, although 14no. less playing and football staff.
Considering that we are a similar size club to Spurs e.g. ground size, training facilities etc. you have to wonder why we employ so many more. Could this be explained by different emloyment methods i.e. Villa employ everybody directly whereas Spurs subcontract work to a service provider and it appears elsewhere in the accounts.
Also, I read the other day about Spurs paying image rights to players, particularly foreign players, in lieu of part wages as a small tax dodge. Would this appear in a different part of the accounts.
Perhaps one of you knowledgeable guys on football club accounts could comment.
Excellent question old man villa fan and one that I definitely could not answer. I'd guess that the accounts for each club will not be transparent enough to answer with any confidence though. can anyone confirm this?
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Booing at half time is just negative upon negative. I do not boo, do not clap/cheer when things are that crap. Anyone who has bought a ticket can show their feeling I guess. But I live in slightly unreasoned hope at half time, regardless of performance/score. I have to!
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.
I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.
Also showing frustration at yet another failed transfer window. Do not forget up until that point he had yet to sign Dunne, Collins and Warnock.
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Also, I read the other day about Spurs paying image rights to players, particularly foreign players, in lieu of part wages as a small tax dodge. Would this appear in a different part of the accounts.
I think you probably read that on here from someone who refuses to acknowledge the fact - fact - that our wage bill is bigger than Spurs.
No, it was not on here (although I am not saying it hasn't been mentioned on here and I missed it - not being a full-timer on here!), it has been in the news in the last week in a discussion on image rights and whether it should be the player or the club that should benefit from them. It was not just Spurs but they were mentioned.
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Wages are a separate entity to image rights, win bonuses and all the rest of it.
I'd find it hard to believe that players keen on earning as much money as possible would forgo or take a lower wage for something variable like increased image rights and bonuses.
But I'm sure Risso will be happy to clarify for the 200th time.
Maybe we can sticky this one, as it never seems to die.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.
I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.
It wasn't the entirety of the previous season but how we tailed off towards the end of the season and people thought the first half of the Wigan was a continuation of that.
I, myself, wouldn't consider booing the teams performance in anything other than the most extreme showing of the players not trying. The Wigan game was just simply a poor performance, these things happen. I have seen some dreadful performances over the last 40+ years but I cannot remember many times I have booed the team off the pitch.
For somebody to boo the team after 45 minutes of a new season off the back of the end of the previous season, were just waiting for a poor performance to vent their dissatisfaction. That's my opinion, anyway, whether it is right or wrong.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Great! you even managed the inverted comma around fan.
But you missed out the 'DOL was right...' Groundhog Day yawnfest, so points off for that.
So we're suggesting anyone that booed that day isn't a fan, is that it?
Were they just Bluenoses or Japanese tourists passing through?
I didn't boo, but I fully understood the frustration of those that did.
It looked like nothing much had changed following five solid months of iffy home form the season previous.
The bit about Everton might have more credence if they weren't so quick to turn on their own players. Never seen a rabble get so agitated as their lot.
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Wages are a separate entity to image rights, win bonuses and all the rest of it.
I'd find it hard to believe that players keen on earning as much money as possible would forgo or take a lower wage for something variable like increased image rights and bonuses.
But I'm sure Risso will be happy to clarify for the 200th time.
Maybe we can sticky this one, as it never seems to die.
Apologies if it has been done to death before but I hadn't seen anything on here about the difference in employee numbers between the two clubs, only the difference in expenditure in the two clubs accounts. Just exploring the difference in expenditure from a different angle to see if there is another reason rather than the often implied 'we pay our players more than Spurs do'.
Regarding bonuses, didn't this almost bankrupt us after winning the League in '81.
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This fact has been quoted quite frequently on here. It puzzled me as to why we are spending considerably more on wages and then I read this http://astonvilla-views.com/2010/08/02/the-wage-debate-and-especially-in-comparison-to-spurs/.
It would appear that one of the reasons why we spend more than Spurs is that we employ over 60% more staff than Spurs, although 14no. less playing and football staff.
Looking at that link, the fact it's from a blog run by teh man taht has taken over teh internetz, I would take the figures with a full Cheshire amount of salt.
I see absolutely no links or evidence to back up the figures given which leads me to think he's either made them up himself or taken the word of someone else who has.
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Big Mouth Strikes Again.
One man on a lonely crusade to infect teh entire internetz.
Nothing can stop him.
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This fact has been quoted quite frequently on here. It puzzled me as to why we are spending considerably more on wages and then I read this http://astonvilla-views.com/2010/08/02/the-wage-debate-and-especially-in-comparison-to-spurs/.
It would appear that one of the reasons why we spend more than Spurs is that we employ over 60% more staff than Spurs, although 14no. less playing and football staff.
Looking at that link, the fact it's from a blog run by teh man taht has taken over teh internetz, I would take the figures with a full Cheshire amount of salt.
I see absolutely no links or evidence to back up the figures given which leads me to think he's either made them up himself or taken the word of someone else who has.
Ok, if you say so. Some people are devious, aren't they! Well, that's one take on it.
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We do have a lot more admin staff it seems. However, most of those won't be on any more than £20K a year, which doesn't go anywhere near to explaining teh difference.
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Wages are a separate entity to image rights, win bonuses and all the rest of it.
I'd find it hard to believe that players keen on earning as much money as possible would forgo or take a lower wage for something variable like increased image rights and bonuses.
But I'm sure Risso will be happy to clarify for the 200th time.
Maybe we can sticky this one, as it never seems to die.
It's quite common, I believe. Clubs do deals with individuals based on image rights so as not to break the wage structure.
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Didn't I hear somewhere that the majority of Sol Campbells wages come in the way of image rights? Does this have a possitive tax impact on the player?
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I don't think anyone thinks we couldn't do any better
You have to be joking.
Well, each side of any argument will have it's extremes, but I'd like to think that even those most adamant MON supporters see 6th as a midway point between where we were and where we're trying to get to.
Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.
What action on Mr. Lerner's part gives you that impression?
The fact that we have the same manager as we did last season, surely if he had serious misgivings he'd have done something about it.
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Didn't I hear somewhere that the majority of Sol Campbells wages come in the way of image rights? Does this have a possitive tax impact on the player?
I believe so, it's this that has put Portsmouth into another bucketload of trooble with HMRC.
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Just playing devil's advocate, but wouldn't those deals be signed when Harry Redknapp was in charge? The same Harry Redknapp who is now in charge of Spurs, whose wages in the posted accounts we constantly debate the validity of?
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Just playing devil's advocate, but wouldn't those deals be signed when Harry Redknapp was in charge? The same Harry Redknapp who is now in charge of Spurs, whose wages in the posted accounts we constantly debate the validity of?
God, not that done-to-death conspiracy theory again.
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Sorry, but I think what's happening at his previous club is a valid point when discussing Redknapp/Spurs/wages.
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Sorry, but I think what's happening at his previous club is a valid point when discussing Redknapp/Spurs/wages.
Well, other than the fact that they are two entirely different football clubs, one of which is a PLC, the other which seems to have been run shambolically.
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True, but if we argue that MON has an influence on negotiating player contracts at Villa, who are a very well run club, then surely the same is true of Harry at Spurs? Is it such a huge jump in logic to say that whatever tactics he used at Pompey might also be employed at Spurs?
There may be nothing in it, but I think it's wrong to simply dismiss it as a 'conspiracy theory'.
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Sorry, but I think what's happening at his previous club is a valid point when discussing Redknapp/Spurs/wages.
Well, other than the fact that they are two entirely different football clubs, one of which is a PLC, the other which seems to have been run shambolically.
Is he still out on bail?
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True, but if we argue that MON has an influence on negotiating player contracts at Villa, who are a very well run club, then surely the same is true of Harry at Spurs? Is it such a huge jump in logic to say that whatever tactics he used at Pompey might also be employed at Spurs?
There may be nothing in it, but I think it's wrong to simply dismiss it as a 'conspiracy theory'.
First, you have to assume that Redknapp was the prime mover in how players were paid at Portsmouth. I'd have thought that would be Storrie.
Then you'd have to assume that Spurs are doing the same thing, despite the extra scrutiny they're under as a PLC.
Then you have to assume that they're doing it because Redknapp has been allowed into a position where he can influence that.
It gets even more conspiracy theory when you factor in the interest HMRC take in that sort of thing.
Spurs have had a reputation for running a strict wages policy for ages. It's really not that stretching of credulity that they should have a lower bill than us. Take Modric and his 25k a week, for example. He's come from Croatian football. Great bit of business by Spurs to get him so cheaply.
We're known for buying players already playing in the UK - bar, what, two signings, they have all come from that market - a market where transfer fees and wages are massively inflated.
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Sorry, but I think what's happening at his previous club is a valid point when discussing Redknapp/Spurs/wages.
Well, other than the fact that they are two entirely different football clubs, one of which is a PLC, the other which seems to have been run shambolically.
Is he still out on bail?
That was about his personal tax. You're first of all assuming he's guilty of that, and then assuming that he's allowed to engage in dodginess at Tottenham, which seems very unlikely, and a bit too convenient an argument.
Still, if the cap fits.
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Take Modric and his 25k a week, for example. He's come from Croatian football. Great bit of business by Spurs to get him so cheaply.
We're known for buying players already playing in the UK - bar, what, two signings, they have all come from that market - a market where transfer fees and wages are massively inflated.
This is the crux of the matter. If you are the first to take the chance on an obvious talent from a lesser league, you could give him a long-term contract for comparatively little a week, with the high-wage new contract up your sleeve if their should be worrying interest from a Manchester United or a Chelsea. By paying only established players from this country, we have to match their wage demands which are already at a premium. This is clearly not a good strategy with our current turnover. If we were to get into the Champions' League then sure, no problem - at the moment though, as Capello would say, "is problem".
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Sorry, but I think what's happening at his previous club is a valid point when discussing Redknapp/Spurs/wages.
Well, other than the fact that they are two entirely different football clubs, one of which is a PLC, the other which seems to have been run shambolically.
Is he still out on bail?
That was about his personal tax. You're first of all assuming he's guilty of that, and then assuming that he's allowed to engage in dodginess at Tottenham, which seems very unlikely, and a bit too convenient an argument.
Still, if the cap fits.
He's as dodgy as they come. How many times has he been arrested now? two, three times?
Yeah, the cap certainly fits.
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First, you have to assume that Redknapp was the prime mover in how players were paid at Portsmouth. I'd have thought that would be Storrie.
Yet we blame Martin for our wage bill? I can't accept that he has any more influenec on these things at Villa than Redknapp did at Portsmouth.
Then you'd have to assume that Spurs are doing the same thing, despite the extra scrutiny they're under as a PLC.
Then you have to assume that they're doing it because Redknapp has been allowed into a position where he can influence that.
I'll give you the extra scrutiny bit, but surely as the manager he IS in a position to at least influence these things?
It gets even more conspiracy theory when you factor in the interest HMRC take in that sort of thing.
Yet if he thought he was getting away with it at Pompey (in all fairness this is a recent development in their ongoing saga) that would hardly stop him?
Spurs have had a reputation for running a strict wages policy for ages. It's really not that stretching of credulity that they should have a lower bill than us. Take Modric and his 25k a week, for example. He's come from Croatian football. Great bit of business by Spurs to get him so cheaply.
We're known for buying players already playing in the UK - bar, what, two signings, they have all come from that market - a market where transfer fees and wages are massively inflated.
I've debated this on here before, but that reputation was from the policy of singing young players and developing them, such as with Lennon and Huddlestone. Redknapp is different in bringing players like Defoe and Crouch back to the club on much higher wages.
Yes, our transfer stratergy does require high wages and yes Modric is an example of where they've done very well, but I do feel that they will slowly see this gap closing aslong as Harry is their boss.
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First, you have to assume that Redknapp was the prime mover in how players were paid at Portsmouth. I'd have thought that would be Storrie.
Yet we blame Martin for our wage bill? I can't accept that he has any more influenec on these things at Villa than Redknapp did at Portsmouth.
There's a difference between how much you pay players and how you pay them, especially if you're suggesting that the method of payment is dodgy.
We've got evidence that we have a high wage bill. Where's the evidence that Spurs are paying people through image rights to maintain a low wage bill on their accounts. And besides which, why would they?
Then you'd have to assume that Spurs are doing the same thing, despite the extra scrutiny they're under as a PLC.
Then you have to assume that they're doing it because Redknapp has been allowed into a position where he can influence that.
I'll give you the extra scrutiny bit, but surely as the manager he IS in a position to at least influence these things?
What, to get Spurs to fall foul of HMRC? Why would they want to?
It gets even more conspiracy theory when you factor in the interest HMRC take in that sort of thing.
Yet if he thought he was getting away with it at Pompey (in all fairness this is a recent development in their ongoing saga) that would hardly stop him?
Spurs have had a reputation for running a strict wages policy for ages. It's really not that stretching of credulity that they should have a lower bill than us. Take Modric and his 25k a week, for example. He's come from Croatian football. Great bit of business by Spurs to get him so cheaply.
We're known for buying players already playing in the UK - bar, what, two signings, they have all come from that market - a market where transfer fees and wages are massively inflated.
I've debated this on here before, but that reputation was from the policy of singing young players and developing them, such as with Lennon and Huddlestone. Redknapp is different in bringing players like Defoe and Crouch back to the club on much higher wages.
No, they've had a reputation for a tight pay policy, full stop, not just on younger players.
Yes, our transfer stratergy does require high wages and yes Modric is an example of where they've done very well, but I do feel that they will slowly see this gap closing aslong as Harry is their boss.
That may or may be the case, but for the now, the figures we're talking about, you could look at Modric as one example for why it is like that now.
There's plenty of evidence for their wage bill being lower - it is there in black and white in the published accounts of both clubs.
There is no evidence whatsoever for that being the case because they're paying players by back door methods, as much as we'd like to point the finger at Redknapp.
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Well, each side of any argument will have it's extremes, but I'd like to think that even those most adamant MON supporters see 6th as a midway point between where we were and where we're trying to get to.
Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.[/quote]
What action on Mr. Lerner's part gives you that impression?[/quote]
The fact that we have the same manager as we did last season, surely if he had serious misgivings he'd have done something about it.[/quote]
Maybe they will be on speaking terms soon.
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There is no evidence whatsoever for that being the case because they're paying players by back door methods, as much as we'd like to point the finger at Redknapp.
There was no evidence of it at Portsmouth either until quite recently.
I'm not saying that there is or isn't any shennanigans going on with Spurs wage policy, just that the theory that there is is lent greater credence by what we are seeing at Pompey at the moment.
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There is no evidence whatsoever for that being the case because they're paying players by back door methods, as much as we'd like to point the finger at Redknapp.
There was no evidence of it at Portsmouth either until quite recently.
There is, however, evidence that the dodgy 'image rights' deals were done after Redknapp left once the owners realised how much shit they were in with regards to money owed to HMRC.
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Well, each side of any argument will have it's extremes, but I'd like to think that even those most adamant MON supporters see 6th as a midway point between where we were and where we're trying to get to.
Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.
What action on Mr. Lerner's part gives you that impression?[/quote]
The fact that we have the same manager as we did last season, surely if he had serious misgivings he'd have done something about it.[/quote]
Maybe they will be on speaking terms soon.[/quote]
More gossip round the dinner table?
-
More gossip round the dinner table?
Yes. It came from a very good sauce.
-
We do have a lot more admin staff it seems. However, most of those won't be on any more than £20K a year, which doesn't go anywhere near to explaining teh difference.
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
I only raised the question as to whether it is possible in club accounts to show payments for 'labour' in places other than just in staff salaries e.g. if subcontracted as a creditor or even off the books if a player controls his own image rights outside of the UK i.e. the club pay a player less in exchange for him controlling the sale of his own image under his own separate company outside UK tax by reciprocal tax agreement with country where his company is set up.
It seems to have opened up the hornets nest again and I wished I handn't bothered asking the question.
Somebody responded last night saying that he believed the internet article I referred to was made up. Obviously some guys know the source from experience.
I said that was one take on it but by the later responses another take on it could be 'meet that super pay' (anagram), perhaps. Don't take it seriously, guys.
-
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
You're getting quite a thing for being unable to post anything which doesn't contain at least one veiled dig at other people.
There's no need for it.
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Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
You're getting quite a thing for being unable to post anything which doesn't contain at least one veiled dig at other people.
There's no need for it.
Merely an observation.
If you take it as a veiled dig, so be it and I apologise. With some of the abuse and questioning of peoples understanding and knowledge of the game written on here, I think that's a bit rich.
I'll go back and sit in the corner and put my hand up if I have a question.
-
Maybe they will be on speaking terms soon.
You don't post on Transfer Rumours do you DC5?
"MON's tenure at the helm of AV drawing to a close hence the truly glacial pace of transfer activity. Learner has simply lost faith and its decision time on all fronts. Expect action on several fronts once Friday's televised friendly is out of the way"
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Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
You're getting quite a thing for being unable to post anything which doesn't contain at least one veiled dig at other people.
There's no need for it.
Merely an observation.
If you take it as a veiled dig, so be it and I apologise. With some of the abuse and questioning of peoples understanding and knowledge of the game written on here, I think that's a bit rich.
I'll go back and sit in the corner and put my hand up if I have a question.
I'm not saying anything at all about your right to have your say.
I'm referring to why you need to throw in this kind of thing:
e people go on, I find it extremely annoying when I think it is not warranted to the extreme comments but forward by some posters. I suppose, however, in todays society some people think they have to shout the loudest to get listened to.
We do have a lot more admin staff it seems. However, most of those won't be on any more than £20K a year, which doesn't go anywhere near to explaining teh difference.
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters..
Thanks for your straight answer, Dave, rather than an answer with a question like some..
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Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
You're getting quite a thing for being unable to post anything which doesn't contain at least one veiled dig at other people.
There's no need for it.
Merely an observation.
If you take it as a veiled dig, so be it and I apologise. With some of the abuse and questioning of peoples understanding and knowledge of the game written on here, I think that's a bit rich.
I'll go back and sit in the corner and put my hand up if I have a question.
I'm not saying anything at all about your right to have your say.
I'm referring to why you need to throw in this kind of thing:
e people go on, I find it extremely annoying when I think it is not warranted to the extreme comments but forward by some posters. I suppose, however, in todays society some people think they have to shout the loudest to get listened to.
We do have a lot more admin staff it seems. However, most of those won't be on any more than £20K a year, which doesn't go anywhere near to explaining teh difference.
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters..
Thanks for your straight answer, Dave, rather than an answer with a question like some..
As I said, a bit rich considering what is said on here by some.
We all think at times that we know better than another. It's how you put it over and show respect, or not, as the case may be.
Lyrics from Metallica are apt at times.
NO MORE!!!
The crap rolls out your mouth again
Haven't changed, your brain is still gelatin
Little whispers circle around your head
Why don't you worry about yourself INSTEAD!!!
Who are you? where ya been? where ya from?
Gossip burning on the tip of your tongue
You lie so much you believe yourself
Judge not l'est ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
Before you judge me take a look at you
Can't you find something better to do
Point the finger, slow to understand
Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand
It's not you are it's who you know
Others lives are the basis of your own
Burn your bridges and build them back with wealth
Judge not l'est ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
Yeah who the hell are you?
Hey yo
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
NOT!!!
-
Anybody who quotes dire Metallica lyrics should be banned with haste.
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More gossip round the dinner table?
Yes. It came from a very good sauce.
Was the conversation peppered with useful insights?
-
Anybody who quotes dire Metallica lyrics
Is there any other type?
-
More gossip round the dinner table?
Yes. It came from a very good sauce.
Was the conversation peppered with useful insights?
You'll have to take what he says with a pinch of salt.
-
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
You're getting quite a thing for being unable to post anything which doesn't contain at least one veiled dig at other people.
There's no need for it.
Merely an observation.
If you take it as a veiled dig, so be it and I apologise. With some of the abuse and questioning of peoples understanding and knowledge of the game written on here, I think that's a bit rich.
I'll go back and sit in the corner and put my hand up if I have a question.
I'm not saying anything at all about your right to have your say.
I'm referring to why you need to throw in this kind of thing:
e people go on, I find it extremely annoying when I think it is not warranted to the extreme comments but forward by some posters. I suppose, however, in todays society some people think they have to shout the loudest to get listened to.
We do have a lot more admin staff it seems. However, most of those won't be on any more than £20K a year, which doesn't go anywhere near to explaining teh difference.
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters..
Thanks for your straight answer, Dave, rather than an answer with a question like some..
As I said, a bit rich considering what is said on here by some.
We all think at times that we know better than another. It's how you put it over and show respect, or not, as the case may be.
Lyrics from Metallica are apt at times.
NO MORE!!!
The crap rolls out your mouth again
Haven't changed, your brain is still gelatin
Little whispers circle around your head
Why don't you worry about yourself INSTEAD!!!
Who are you? where ya been? where ya from?
Gossip burning on the tip of your tongue
You lie so much you believe yourself
Judge not l'est ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
Before you judge me take a look at you
Can't you find something better to do
Point the finger, slow to understand
Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand
It's not you are it's who you know
Others lives are the basis of your own
Burn your bridges and build them back with wealth
Judge not l'est ye be judged yourself
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
Yeah who the hell are you?
Hey yo
Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not
NOT!!!
Very impressive.
The sniping at posters needs to stop. End of.
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I don't think Lerner would be ruthless enough to get rid of MO'N. Young Doug he might be in some respects, but not in respect of that particular trait.
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Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
*SNIP*
Somebody responded last night saying that he believed the internet article I referred to was made up. Obviously some guys know the source from experience.
I was merely pointing out that the author of the article in question had put absolutely no quotes, references or links into his article to tell us where his information had come from, I could find nothing from any other source to corroborate what he posted either.
It may be correct, he may have sources, but yes, you are correct in thinking that some of us know the gentleman in question, and our vast experience tells us that 99% of what he writes is 100% bollocks.
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Randy has been known to be very ruthless at wielding the axe at Cleveland browns- I'm sure he will not find it any problem doing so here if he wishes!
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Anybody who quotes dire Metallica lyrics
Is there any other type?
So fucking what! (admittedly only a cover version that Metallica did)
-
Metallica:
Pre 1990 - Untouchable.
Post 1990 - Unlistenable.
-
More gossip round the dinner table?
Yes. It came from a very good sauce.
Was the conversation peppered with useful insights?
You'll have to take what he says with a pinch of salt.
I am too busy now. Will try and ketchup with you later.
-
More gossip round the dinner table?
Yes. It came from a very good sauce.
Was the conversation peppered with useful insights?
You'll have to take what he says with a pinch of salt.
I am too busy now. Will try and ketchup with you later.
Beware the HP Clappers, dave.
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Maybe they will be on speaking terms soon.
You don't post on Transfer Rumours do you DC5?
"MON's tenure at the helm of AV drawing to a close hence the truly glacial pace of transfer activity. Learner has simply lost faith and its decision time on all fronts. Expect action on several fronts once Friday's televised friendly is out of the way"
I do occasionally post rumours, such as the one that started this thread, but always with good inside knowledge. Milner's injury of last season was some duff information that I had been fed.
Where did you get that quote from? I heard something similar in Fleet Street earlier in the week.
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Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
*SNIP*
Somebody responded last night saying that he believed the internet article I referred to was made up. Obviously some guys know the source from experience.
I was merely pointing out that the author of the article in question had put absolutely no quotes, references or links into his article to tell us where his information had come from, I could find nothing from any other source to corroborate what he posted either.
It may be correct, he may have sources, but yes, you are correct in thinking that some of us know the gentleman in question, and our vast experience tells us that 99% of what he writes is 100% bollocks.
The numbers related to Spurs come from their accounts which are available on line. These are correct so I do not anticipate that the Villa numbers are incorrect, although I have not read the Villa accounts to check.
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Anybody who quotes dire Metallica lyrics should be banned with haste.
Banning is the least of the punishment I would expect if I actually liked the music, something more akin to the use of a rope and a tree would be appropriate!
-
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
*SNIP*
Somebody responded last night saying that he believed the internet article I referred to was made up. Obviously some guys know the source from experience.
I was merely pointing out that the author of the article in question had put absolutely no quotes, references or links into his article to tell us where his information had come from, I could find nothing from any other source to corroborate what he posted either.
It may be correct, he may have sources, but yes, you are correct in thinking that some of us know the gentleman in question, and our vast experience tells us that 99% of what he writes is 100% bollocks.
The numbers related to Spurs come from their accounts which are available on line. These are correct so I do not anticipate that the Villa numbers are incorrect, although I have not read the Villa accounts to check.
But no links in the article in question, and spurious numbers with regards to the amount of Villa staff, no breakdown as to whether these are highly paid players or just 20K a year admin bods or waitresses in the Corner Flag.
And absolutely no proof that Spuds' wage bill for players is less than ours, which is the whole point of this surely?
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But no links in the article in question, and spurious numbers with regards to the amount of Villa staff, no breakdown as to whether these are highly paid players or just 20K a year admin bods or waitresses in the Corner Flag.
And absolutely no proof that Spurs' wage bill for players is less than ours, which is the whole point of this surely?
Will you pay to get a copy of the Villa accounts or shall I so that we can see once and for all whether the numbers are correct. To be honest, I'm not too bothered but you seem hell bent on rubishing the article.
If the numbers are correct it is pretty obvious that they are on salaries around £20k as you say because it actually quotes the numbers of playing staff of the two clubs and hence the main difference is non-playing staff.
The point that I raised is whether staffing and player costs may be included elsewhere in the accounts either as subcontract costs for match day and corporate service staff or in other current liabilities as payments to players in such things as image rights. If they are, the comparison of costs in each clubs accounts for wages may not be a true like-for-like comparison of the amount paid to the players.
The whole point is the comparison of cost of running our squad compared to Spurs to see who is getting best value. The accounts are only a financial summary at a point in time any way and reflect the year for the season before last. It will be interesting to see the comparison of the 2010 accounts.
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I've posted links to the Villa accounts a dozen times. You can download them yourself from Companies House if you can spare a quid.
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Take Modric and his 25k a week, for example. He's come from Croatian football. Great bit of business by Spurs to get him so cheaply.
We're known for buying players already playing in the UK - bar, what, two signings, they have all come from that market - a market where transfer fees and wages are massively inflated.
This is the crux of the matter. If you are the first to take the chance on an obvious talent from a lesser league, you could give him a long-term contract for comparatively little a week, with the high-wage new contract up your sleeve if their should be worrying interest from a Manchester United or a Chelsea. By paying only established players from this country, we have to match their wage demands which are already at a premium. This is clearly not a good strategy with our current turnover. If we were to get into the Champions' League then sure, no problem - at the moment though, as Capello would say, "is problem".
Yes but on a positive note, think of how much we must be saving by not bothering with a scouting network aywhere further than Glasgow.
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Modric is always touted as an example of why our transfer policy is wrong and it fairness it's a very good example. But lets not kid ourselves that it's 100% success rate either - Bosko Balaban anyone?
What we need to do is vary it so that w're recruiting from a variety of markets. Martin's not wrong in what's he's doing, but he is wrong in not taking chances from overseas aswell.
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Some of these puns are a bit saucy.
Sorry.
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Modric is always touted as an example of why our transfer policy is wrong and it fairness it's a very good example. But lets not kid ourselves that it's 100% success rate either - Bosko Balaban anyone?
What we need to do is vary it so that w're recruiting from a variety of markets. Martin's not wrong in what's he's doing
A lot of the time he is, unless you think that Shorey and Heskey have provided good value for money.
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Do we really have to so the 'Shorey, Heskey & Marlon' v 'Milner, Ash & Warnock' thing AGAIN???
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Modric is always touted as an example of why our transfer policy is wrong and it fairness it's a very good example. But lets not kid ourselves that it's 100% success rate either - Bosko Balaban anyone?
What we need to do is vary it so that w're recruiting from a variety of markets. Martin's not wrong in what's he's doing, but he is wrong in not taking chances from overseas aswell.
when fit he has looked a quality footballer, perhaps too lightweight for the Prem though. Regardless, Spuds would make a profit on him should these choose to sell. What did we sell Balaban for?
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Modric is always touted as an example of why our transfer policy is wrong and it fairness it's a very good example. But lets not kid ourselves that it's 100% success rate either - Bosko Balaban anyone?
What we need to do is vary it so that w're recruiting from a variety of markets. Martin's not wrong in what's he's doing, but he is wrong in not taking chances from overseas aswell.
when fit he has looked a quality footballer, perhaps too lightweight for the Prem though. Regardless, Spurs would make a profit on him should these choose to sell. What did we sell Balaban for?
Uhm, isn't that the point that I'm making? That we shouldn't presume signing overseas players is an automatic ticket to the CL without spending a fortune?
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Modric is always touted as an example of why our transfer policy is wrong and it fairness it's a very good example. But lets not kid ourselves that it's 100% success rate either - Bosko Balaban anyone?
What we need to do is vary it so that w're recruiting from a variety of markets. Martin's not wrong in what's he's doing, but he is wrong in not taking chances from overseas aswell.
when fit he has looked a quality footballer, perhaps too lightweight for the Prem though. Regardless, Spurs would make a profit on him should these choose to sell. What did we sell Balaban for?
Uhm, isn't that the point that I'm making? That we shouldn't presume signing overseas players is an automatic ticket to the CL without spending a fortune?
No, but I think that the distinction between British and foreign is a false one. There is only good and bad and seeing as there are more foreign players than British players (not to mention sub-standard British youth coaching) it's safe to assume that there are more good players abroad than there are here.
Modric is a good player, Balaban wasn't good enough. Foreign or otherwise doesn't enter into it on that front. As for the not spending much, it is well known that English players are overvalued because of the insularity of the Premier League, and that players in mid-career cost more in wages anyway. Therefore the most cost-effective method for success at the moment is good, young players from smaller countries (it's not just England - Dutch, Brazilians, Argentinians and others cost too much as well from reflected glory).
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No, but I think that the distinction between British and foreign is a false one. There is only good and bad and seeing as there are more foreign players than British players (not to mention sub-standard British youth coaching) it's safe to assume that there are more good players abroad than there are here.
Modric is a good player, Balaban wasn't good enough. Foreign or otherwise doesn't enter into it on that front. As for the not spending much, it is well known that English players are overvalued because of the insularity of the Premier League, and that players in mid-career cost more in wages anyway. Therefore the most cost-effective method for success at the moment is good, young players from smaller countries (it's not just England - Dutch, Brazilians, Argentinians and others cost too much as well from reflected glory).
I wouldn't argue with that, but I also agree with Martin that having a British spine/feel to the side is important, so buying young players like Delph, Ash and Milner is also important to make sure what you are doing ultimately results in a successful team. If you look at Arsenal they are the closest example to what you are suggesting, yet despite being better than us they are not the force they were when thay had that established English back 4.
It's all about balance, and our stratergy is not balanced at the moment, but that does not mean it needs to be thrown out - just added to.
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I wouldn't argue with that, but I also agree with Martin that having a British spine/feel to the side is important, so buying young players like Delph, Ash and Milner is also important to make sure what you are doing ultimately results in a successful team. If you look at Arsenal they are the closest example to what you are suggesting, yet despite being better than us they are not the force they were when thay had that established English back 4.
It's all about balance, and ours stratergy is not balanced at the moment, but that does not mean it needs to be thrown out - just added to.
Firstly, on Arsenal I would just say that I said the most cost-effective way to do well is, as you say, essentially what they're doing. However, there are teams finding less cost-effective routes to success ahead of them, which is what limits their progress.
Secondly, what mattered wasn't the Englishness of that famous back 6 ('keeper and linesman also tended to be English), it was the quality. The current champions of Europe have won the Scudetto two years in a row without a single Italian in the team. I really don't see what's important about the Englishness (or domestic-ness) of a team other than it's quite a nice thought - in fact, it's putting heart before head, which is something a manager shouldn't really be doing much of.
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Firstly, on Arsenal I would just say that I said the most cost-effective way to do well is, as you say, essentially what they're doing. However, there are teams finding less cost-effective routes to success ahead of them, which is what limits their progress.
Secondly, what mattered wasn't the Englishness of that famous back 6 ('keeper and linesman also tended to be English), it was the quality. The current champions of Europe have won the Scudetto two years in a row without a single Italian in the team. I really don't see what's important about the Englishness (or domestic-ness) of a team other than it's quite a nice thought - in fact, it's putting heart before head, which is something a manager shouldn't really be doing much of.
Does the fact that these other teams are doing better than Arsenal not therefore suggest that their cost-effective approach is not working? So should we not be looking at what they are doing right and then add what they're missing as our blueprint?
The Scudetto is one thing, but we play in the Premier League. If you look at the top teams throughout the PL's existence (not saying football was invented in 1992, just using is as the timescale for the increase of foreign players in the English game) then their has always been a core of British players at the heart of any of the truely successful teams.
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A core, certainly, but a diminishing influence without a doubt. The point about Italy is a fair one, as they went through the same process of foreign influence as we are, but about ten years previously, and it has now reached its logical conclusion - a non-Italian team winning the Italian league. There is no reason, empirically or really theoretically, why Englishness should be important to winning the league.
What Arsenal are not doing to get success is something we can't do either - compete in spending with Chelsea, Man City and Man Utd. Having said that, when Platini's new rules come into force, Arsenal will easily be the club in the best position to combat the new situation.
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Well, I can't argue that Arsenal aren't running things well, but when we get labelled as having no 'plan b' I often bring up the argument that they don't either. Should their intricate passing fail to break a side down they can't hit it long or try getting crosses in. So in many respects a balance of their style and ours would be a great pathway to success. Going back to transfers, I think the same is true. I think they would have been a better side last year for having Dunne marehalling their back 4 or having a big striker like carew to bring off the bench. And that improvement could be made without competing with the mega money clubs. So, again I think we need to adopt elements of what they do, both on the pitch and off it, but a blending with our own current strengths is the way to get the most out of it, not a complete reversal of tactics from one extreme to the other.
As for the non-English team winning the PL, I would argue that the Italian league/culture is more receptive to foreign players and more fast paced the PL style is not. While you can argue that theoretically Englishness is not important, there is still a compelling evidence that it is as so far no team has done this. And in an argument or theory over evidence, I go with the evidence!
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That's a bit of an Inspector Lestrade comment, isn't it John? ;)
I actually don't think that Arsenal don't put crosses in, they score from plenty of them. As for long balls, they are really almost totally pointless in any given situation, and that any reliance on them is frankly sad and regressive. As much as Arsenal, like us, lack a Plan B, their Plan A is massively more effective than ours, almost ridiculously so, for scoring goals. What they lack is experience and maturity - a few players in their team have it, but not enough, and that's where, as you rightly say, they could use Richard Dunne (by the way, neither he nor Carew are British, as per our previous discussion!).
Your comment about Italian culture being more receptive to foreigners is curious. In my experience, Italy is one of the least conducive places on earth to foreign influence - it's not uncommon to hear Italians call people from difference regions or towns "stranieri", foreigners. Style of play may be another thing, but it's worth suggesting that in a match between two evenly-matched sides in terms of players, a team playing the Italian style will damn near always beat a team playing the English style.
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The reason for the diminishing influence of the English core to teams is due to the reducing quality of the English players and what you have to pay to get the better ones.
I think people have thought that if you sign an English player and he does well at your club and likes the club, there is every chance that he will extend his contract and you then have continuity to build a team over a number of years. Sadly now, with the rich clubs around, the lesser clubs have their best 'cherry picked'.
I have always seen Europe (with the possible exception of Germany) as a different model to England. Whether it is the closer proximity to each other and the links between Spain/Portugal and South America or France/Belgium with Africa the team building seemed to be much shorter term with more of a 'mercenary' attitude of the players. I have felt that players signed on for a certain contract period knowing that they would move on after. Similarly with managers who build a team to win a competition and then move on, taking players with them. This does happen in England but to a far lesser extent. People will say that it has always happened but not to the extent as now where we have a top 4 or 5, a small group below them and then the rest.
We are seeing this more fluid approach to team building in the PL and I believe it is this that is draining the life out of the game, whether it be financial or supporters appetite for the game. The major leagues around Europe are all now suffering financially due to this fast turnaround in players and the resulting cost of enticement of players/agents. How much disillusionment is there with Villa fans caused by the Barry/Milner sagas or constant media manufactured threat of losing players like Ashley Young.
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That's a bit of an Inspector Lestrade comment, isn't it John? ;)
I actually don't think that Arsenal don't put crosses in, they score from plenty of them. As for long balls, they are really almost totally pointless in any given situation, and that any reliance on them is frankly sad and regressive. As much as Arsenal, like us, lack a Plan B, their Plan A is massively more effective than ours, almost ridiculously so, for scoring goals. What they lack is experience and maturity - a few players in their team have it, but not enough, and that's where, as you rightly say, they could use Richard Dunne (by the way, neither he nor Carew are British, as per our previous discussion!).
Your comment about Italian culture being more receptive to foreigners is curious. In my experience, Italy is one of the least conducive places on earth to foreign influence - it's not uncommon to hear Italians call people from difference regions or towns "stranieri", foreigners. Style of play may be another thing, but it's worth suggesting that in a match between two evenly-matched sides in terms of players, a team playing the Italian style will damn near always beat a team playing the English style.
I don't think it's an unfair thing to say. If I was to post that I thought Martin would crack the top 4 for us this season, there would be a landslide of replies telling me I was wrong and pointing to all the evidence that says so. By the same token, you can't dismiss the fact that every title winning side since the advent of foreign players has still had an important British contigent simply because you think it could happen i the future.
Yes, Arsenal scored more goals than us last season, but is that solely to do with their style of play or does the fact they have better players also factor into things? And if long balls (and for the record, I don't like them) are pointless why did the team that broke the top 4 last season play more of them than any other side? It's because they also balanced it with other tactics and Arsenal have not achieved their potential as they do not do this.
And would Fulham beating Juventus over two legs not counter your argument over the respective league styles? I've only ever been to Italy three times so you may have a much greater ppreciation of it's culture than I do, but I do feel there is a stark contrast footballing wise, so what is true there (fully foreign team winning the league) does not necessarily follow here.
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It's not impossible teams that with strong British contingents can do well in the league, but my argument is more that is no longer cost-effective, and a lack of cost-effectiveness limits our ability to build a squad, being one of the middle-spending teams.
Arsenal have better players than us, but it's not just about the quality of their best individuals. If you instill the correct ethos and style and, above all, temperament, the players we have can play a more creative, possession-based and, above all, effective style - maybe not as well as Arsenal, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it (and, perhaps, we have more experience in the defence to compensate for not having as potent an attack). Spurs were by no means a direct team - their excellent footballing ability and deep squad got them that fourth spot, as well as a well-timed run of form from Gareth Bale. Even so, with their more balance out style, they did not finish above Arsenal with their supposed one-dimensional style.
As for Fulham's victory over Juve, I would have to firstly say that it was an incredible game in which an old and sub-standard Juve side wilted like it did so many times last season, and secondly that Fulham are not so un-Italian themselves in their style of play. They had decent energy levels, but it was their organisation and well-timed passing which got them to the final last season. Though you are right in saying that Italian football is vastly different to English football, I'd firstly like to point out that their style of tactics and technique is proven to be more effective than ours given a balance of ability, and secondly that, while what happens there does not necessarily follow here, a difference in style does not alter who of any given nationality is most adept to play any given style.
(Finally, can I say that it's such a pleasure to have a proper debate on here without descending into mindless insults. It's almost unnerving.)
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Your comment about Italian culture being more receptive to foreigners is curious. In my experience, Italy is one of the least conducive places on earth to foreign influence - it's not uncommon to hear Italians call people from difference regions or towns "stranieri", foreigners. Style of play may be another thing, but it's worth suggesting that in a match between two evenly-matched sides in terms of players, a team playing the Italian style will damn near always beat a team playing the English style.
I wouldn't say that is reflected so much in football as over the years successful Italian clubs have at times built teams around a core of foreign players e.g. the Inter side that beat us in the UEFA Cup in 1990 (was I depressed that night in Milan, having travelled to the game on my own) built on the German core of Klinsmann, Matthaus and Brehme or the AC Milan side built around the Dutch core of Rijkaard, Van Basten and Gullit.
Match ups between English style teams and those of Italian style have usually been about one side going out wanting to win and the other going out not to lose but the latter eventually winning due to having better technical players able to score from fewer chances.
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You are largely right about the way that Italian teams beat the English, Old Man, but the foreign legions to which you refer were just Italy doing what the Premier League is doing now, only it happened around the mid-80s. Of course, their football is more open to influence than ours simply because England is so insular and blind to change so much of the time when it comes to football, but their attitude to foreigners in general, and generally in football (especially in places like Rome, Bergamo and the Veneto), is not so dissimilar to England.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.
I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.
You seem to have arrived at your opinion as to the cause rather quickly. Having a thought pop into you head doesn't preclude other opinions from being valid.
Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.
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Monty,
Yes - it is good to have this sort of discussion without in degenerating into farce.
My basic point in all of this is that there is no one pathway to the success we crave. You rightly mention Spurs as varying their tactics and getting 4th, but that does not mean Arsenal were right to go to one extreme as they finished higher, because they also have better players than Spurs. And for all our talk about where to source your players from, the majority of that Spurs side were bought domestically.
We have achieved a steady 6th place and that is a platfirm upon which to achieve more, but we will not do so by destroying the basis that platform was built on. Evolution, and not revolution, is the way forward for us.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.
I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.
You seem to have arrived at your opinion as to the cause rather quickly. Having a thought pop into you head doesn't preclude other opinions from being valid.
Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.
I know we rallied at the end of the season, I was talking about more than the last couple of games - more about the way we struggled to break teams down, and to score goals, at home across the course of the season.
I don't understand your comment about precluding other opinions from being valid, so don't really see what you're getting at. Of course other opinions are valid
My point about rationality was just to say that it's a bit weird to think that suddenly we'd turned into a bunch of fans who will get quite so upset about 45 minutes of football in isolation. I know we've got a bit of a downer on ourselves, but that seems to be stretching it to breaking point.
What i was trying to say re half time was that now, a year on, I think it was about more than just 45 minutes, and I did at the time. Nothing more than that.
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We do have a lot more admin staff it seems. However, most of those won't be on any more than £20K a year, which doesn't go anywhere near to explaining teh difference.
Thanks for your objective response, unlike some posters.
I only raised the question as to whether it is possible in club accounts to show payments for 'labour' in places other than just in staff salaries e.g. if subcontracted as a creditor or even off the books if a player controls his own image rights outside of the UK i.e. the club pay a player less in exchange for him controlling the sale of his own image under his own separate company outside UK tax by reciprocal tax agreement with country where his company is set up.
Yes it is possible. It is relatively common for players to have "image rights" limited companies and there is no specific requirement that payments to those companies be recorded as staff costs.
I don't know of any verifiable information on Spurs players wages. Recent reports have suggested that Modric is being awarded a better contract from a current £45k (perhaps Paulie's £25k figure is more reliable and verifiable?) per week and that Gareth Bale is getting an increase from £25k per week. There were also widespread reports at the time that Darren Bent would have to take a significant pay cut if he had signed for us, even if he came in as our equal highest earner.
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For those end of the world fans I have got the following odds from Paddy Power.
Villa to finish bottom 10 6/1
Villa to be relegated 66/1
Villa to finish bottom 225/1
Licence to print money eh !!!
For those a bit more optimistic
Villa to finish top 10 1/14
Villa to finish top 6 15/8
Villa to finish top 4 7/1
For those with more money than sense
Emile to be the leagues top scorer 100/1
Emile to be top english scorer 75/1
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My basic point in all of this is that there is no one pathway to the success we crave. You rightly mention Spurs as varying their tactics and getting 4th, but that does not mean Arsenal were right to go to one extreme as they finished higher, because they also have better players than Spurs. And for all our talk about where to source your players from, the majority of that Spurs side were bought domestically.
We have achieved a steady 6th place and that is a platfirm upon which to achieve more, but we will not do so by destroying the basis that platform was built on. Evolution, and not revolution, is the way forward for us.
Most of Spurs' players were bought domestically, but with their superior turnover they can afford to do more of that. Besides, many of them they had from a young age and nurtured them on long contracts, so their wages are lower - something you rightly say we are trying to do now (but weren't necessarily doing before - Nicky Shorey, Emile Heskey, Luke Young and Steve Sidwell are not young players with upward curves ahead of them).
In terms of style, unless, like Barcelona and to a lesser extent Arsenal, you are almost unstoppable at a certain style, of course variety is the crucial element in attack. I would say, however, that we need without a doubt to be closer to the Arsenal end of the spectrum than whatever the other end is (let's say the Stoke end), and that at the moment, we are closer to the Stoke end.
However, I totally agree with your last comment. Like I've said, we have the players to play a more progressive style of football, and a few more to supplement this - Stephen Ireland would work wonders - and we could progress along the road to this more attractive style. As you say, evolution, not revolution.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.
I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.
You seem to have arrived at your opinion as to the cause rather quickly. Having a thought pop into you head doesn't preclude other opinions from being valid.
Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.
I know we rallied at the end of the season, I was talking about more than the last couple of games - more about the way we struggled to break teams down, and to score goals, at home across the course of the season.
I don't understand your comment about precluding other opinions from being valid, so don't really see what you're getting at. Of course other opinions are valid
My point about rationality was just to say that it's a bit weird to think that suddenly we'd turned into a bunch of fans who will get quite so upset about 45 minutes of football in isolation. I know we've got a bit of a downer on ourselves, but that seems to be stretching it to breaking point.
What i was trying to say re half time was that now, a year on, I think it was about more than just 45 minutes, and I did at the time. Nothing more than that.
The comment about precluding other opinions referred to the fact you built your post on Leighton's dismissal of the OP as Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful, how could it be when you take into account the fact it was by some important measures i.e. points and placing our best league season in 13 years?
The booing was widely distributed around the ground and appeared to come form individuals and small groups rather than a shared response from all fans or from a particular stand, such as we've seen previously from the Holte End or in the old days, occasionally from the Trinity Rd.
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As ever, when these things are discussed in depth without arguments breaking out, you find that the actual opinions are not all that far apart!
I've always held the view that the stikers dictate the type of football you play, as thet are the at the fulcrum of any attack and, unless you're playing for a 0-0, vital to everything. When our main/best striker has tremendous pace, but not necessarily a top footballing brain, is it any wonder we set up to play on the break and get the ball to him quickly? Stephen ireland is a good point, but I think Robbie Keane would change/improve us more due to the type of striker he is.
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I think that we do need to blend our style of play. We need to be capable of more direct football as we do manage well BUT also we need to get more passing, movement and flair into the side. A decent winger like Ash is a great weapon to have but we need to move through the centre more. I don't think we need to move to Barca or Arsenal style football but we need to move to a happy medium. With the tools we have at our disposal
I think the best possible way for us to go is the style similar to that utilised by the Germans at the WC. We use our pace for the quick breaks but also when we need to break down teams we need to move through the middle more pass the ball around. I think the point on the strikers is a valid one but equally as important is the midfield. We lack flair and vision in there so someone like Ireland could be used here and also Stan if we redefine his role a bit and bring in a midfield ball winner (Hopefully a more intelligent footballer than NRC).
Even if we do this we still need a bit more intelligence up front.
Anyway, moving back to the main thrust of the thread. In my opinion the end is only nigh depending on how longer the term this will be over. Pretty much everyone agrees that this will be a key season for the marriage of club and manager. It can go either one of two ways and my expectation is that it may well be a slightly more disappointing season than last that will ultimately end in the manager's departure. I'm not saying that is what will happen it is merely my opinion.
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I do feel that any "fan" that is willing to boo there own team after 45 mins of the season as for the wigan game last season must feel some responsibility.
Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
This is something which confuses me. The readiness of seemingly rational people to believe that the booing at 45 minutes against Wigan was purely about the previous 45 minutes.
I didn't boo, but I did remark to my match-attending friends that it was a continuation of the entirety of the previous season at home.
You seem to have arrived at your opinion as to the cause rather quickly. Having a thought pop into you head doesn't preclude other opinions from being valid.
Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.
I know we rallied at the end of the season, I was talking about more than the last couple of games - more about the way we struggled to break teams down, and to score goals, at home across the course of the season.
I don't understand your comment about precluding other opinions from being valid, so don't really see what you're getting at. Of course other opinions are valid
My point about rationality was just to say that it's a bit weird to think that suddenly we'd turned into a bunch of fans who will get quite so upset about 45 minutes of football in isolation. I know we've got a bit of a downer on ourselves, but that seems to be stretching it to breaking point.
What i was trying to say re half time was that now, a year on, I think it was about more than just 45 minutes, and I did at the time. Nothing more than that.
The comment about precluding other opinions referred to the fact you built your post on Leighton's dismissal of the OP as Totally and utterly complete load of bollocks.
I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful, how could it be when you take into account the fact it was by some important measures i.e. points and placing our best league season in 13 years?
The booing was widely distributed around the ground and appeared to come form individuals and small groups rather than a shared response from all fans or from a particular stand, such as we've seen previously from the Holte End or in the old days, occasionally from the Trinity Rd.
Come on. Our home form the previous year was poor, the football had been crap to watch at times, we capitulated from a position of strength in third to wriggle into sixth, we were threadbare at the back and having to play an untried kid in Clark.
Then we serve up a performance that suggested that nothing had changed and we were comprehensively outplayed by a side that many suspected wpuld be running it close for relegation. That is why people booed.
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Come on. Our home form the previous year was poor, the football had been crap to watch at times, we capitulated from a position of strength in third to wriggle into sixth, we were threadbare at the back and having to play an untried kid in Clark.
Then we serve up a performance that suggested that nothing had changed and we were comprehensively outplayed by a side that many suspected wpuld be running it close for relegation. That is why people booed.
Clark didn't play, new signings Beye and Delph did.
Our home form the season before could have been better but was similar to the best of any other season since the mid 90s and had the counterbalanced of our best away form in a hundred years. W8 D8 L3 30 points is an ordinary home record but not something that would in itself be considered grounds for booing the team on the opening day of the season when only 0-1 down at HT.
The previous season had ultimately been less then we’d hoped for and the first half performance was pretty dire (against a team who went on to beat Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool) but I doubt any Villa team in history has been boo’d off the pitch at HT in the first game of the season. Something was different.
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I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful, how could it be when you take into account the fact it was by some important measures i.e. points and placing our best league season in 13 years?
I didn't say that the season was awful, though, did I.
I said the football at home over the season was pretty poor.
I also don't see the need to raise the Wigan booing repeatedly as some kind of stick to beat ourselves with. Or, indeed, exactly who are we beating with said stick. I say that as one who didn't boo, I never do, I don't see the point.
Incidentally:
I don't think the booing was simply about the first half performance but neither do I think it was because the previous season was so awful
We appear to be saying the same thing. I didn't say it was purely about either the 45 minutes or the previous home season, either.
It was, in my opinion, a season of poor home form, followed by 45 minutes which suggested nothing had changed - ie not entirely one, and not entirely the other.
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Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.
Would these be the home games v a very poor Hull side who made us hang on for long periods and a dismal Newcastle side who sent themselves down with an OG? Those kind of facts?
Those games- like most of our home form from the turn of the year onwards- were far from convincing. And was reflected in a lower victories total than we've managed even during mediocre seasons. The highest points total and equal highest league position you mention was built largely on our exceptional away form.
For the paying spectator, the bloke who doesn't necessarily travel the country but is a season ticket holder or regular at VP it looked like nothing much had changed from the previous year. I know it's a concept you and a few others seem to struggle with but it really wasn't just about one game.
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Your opinion doesn't tally with the facts that we had won our 2 preceding PL home games and had finished the season with our highest points total and equal highest league position in 13 years. On that basis, you wouldn't normally expect the team to be boo'd off when only 0-1 down at H-T in the first game of the season.
Would these be the home games v a very poor Hull side who made us hang on for long periods and a dismal Newcastle side who sent themselves down with an OG? Those kind of facts?
Those games- like most of our home form from the turn of the year onwards- were far from convincing. And was reflected in a lower victories total than we've managed even during mediocre seasons. The highest points total and equal highest league position you mention was built largely on our exceptional away form.
For the paying spectator, the bloke who doesn't necessarily travel the country but is a season ticket holder or regular at VP it looked like nothing much had changed from the previous year. I know it's a concept you and a few others seem to struggle with but it really wasn't just about one game.
It was a perfectly ordinary home season regardless of how much anyone wishes to portray it as worse than that.
We took 30 points and only once in the last 13 seasons have we accumulated more than 33 points and that was in the GTII season.
I am one of those blokes who attend most home games and only occasional away games (which is just as well as we nearly always lose when I go to away games). That doesn’t stop me appreciating the away form, which was as you say exceptional, historic even.
It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.
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It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.
Witchcraft?
Seriously, though, what was at play?
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It was a perfectly ordinary home season regardless of how much anyone wishes to portray it as worse than that.
We took 30 points and only once in the last 13 seasons have we accumulated more than 33 points and that was in the GTII season.
Thing is, I don't know if you're right on that fact or not, but I'll take your word on it, but despite those stats, i personally found the season previous to that dreadfully boring and predictable to watch. And that season (ie last season) too.
We might have got a reasonable points haul, but - in my subjective opinion - it was absolutely pants to watch, and a chore to sit through for long spells.
I don't know if the booers were thinking the same, but they were clearly unhappy about something. As you've said yourself you don't think it was just the previous 45 minutes, what else could it have been?
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I was at the Wigan game and we got booed off at half time because we were fucking shit, there was no hidden agenda behind it. We'd had a good pre-season that culminated in incredible ineptitude against opponents that we really should have taken to the cleaners.
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The booing at the Wigan first half performance was simply a gut reaction to a dire 45 minutes of football, a less than fantastic end to the previous system, and possibly a poor team selection by O'Neill.
Rightly or wrongly, that's what it was. Supporters don't sit there working out the home stats for the last 10 years. They react to what they see on the pitch. We don't get chants like "John Carew, Carew, at 6'4" he's taller than the mean height for UK adult males of 5'10", whch probably includes me and you."
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We took 30 points and only once in the last 13 seasons have we accumulated more than 33 points and that was in the GTII season.
Having checked, that is truly excellent spin, VD.
What does 33 points have to do with it?
We took 30 points. Not 33.
The booing against Wigan was the first game of the 2009/10 season, and followed the 2008/9 season.
2008/9 - 30 points
As reference, by comparison
2007/8 - 33 points
2006/7 - 29 points
2005/6 - 24 points
2004/5 - 30 points
2003/4 - 33 points
2002/3 - 35 points - for a team which finished 16th.
2001/2 - 31 points
2000/1 - 32 points
1999/0 - 32 points
1998/9 - 33 points
So, actually, we'd only score fewer points twice in the preceeding ten years. We also didn't have a billionaire benefactor pumping in money for most of those years, either.
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The booing at the Wigan first half performance was simply a gut reaction to a dire 45 minutes of football, a less than fantastic end to the previous system, and possibly a poor team selection by O'Neill.
Rightly or wrongly, that's what it was. Supporters don't sit there working out the home stats for the last 10 years. They react to what they see on the pitch. We don't get chants like "John Carew, Carew, at 6'4" he's taller than the mean height for UK adult males of 5'10", whch probably includes me and you."
It certainly includes Maz!
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The booing at the Wigan first half performance was simply a gut reaction to a dire 45 minutes of football, a less than fantastic end to the previous system, and possibly a poor team selection by O'Neill.
Rightly or wrongly, that's what it was. Supporters don't sit there working out the home stats for the last 10 years. They react to what they see on the pitch. We don't get chants like "John Carew, Carew, at 6'4" he's taller than the mean height for UK adult males of 5'10", whch probably includes me and you."
Is the right answer.
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I am: "the mean height for UK adult males of 5'10" and yes, John Carew is taller than me.
I am however, probably bigger than he is.
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It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.
Witchcraft?
Seriously, though, what was at play?
I'm not sure. I just know it wasn't an ordinary reaction.
I have a theory that it is related to people reading the constant stream of unwarranted negative comments on websites like this one but its just that, a theory. There is no shortage of things that have changed because of the internet and the willingness of supporters to boo their team at HT in the first game of the season might be one of those changes.
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It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.
Witchcraft?
Seriously, though, what was at play?
I'm not sure. I just know it wasn't an ordinary reaction.
I have a theory that it is related to people reading the constant stream of unwarranted negative comments on websites like this one but its just that, a theory. There is no shortage of things that have changed because of the internet and the willingness of supporters to boo their team at HT in the first game of the season might be one of those changes.
Really? I think you're falling into the trap of assuming websites like this have a much bigger role than they do.
I certainly know that the people around where I sit have no idea of the existence of this website let alone take their lead from it.
There are probably a hardcore of about 50-100 people who post regularly on this web site.
There are usually that many people in front of me in the queue when I go for my twice-a-season pint at half time in the Upper Trinity.
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It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.
Witchcraft?
Seriously, though, what was at play?
I'm not sure. I just know it wasn't an ordinary reaction.
I have a theory that it is related to people reading the constant stream of unwarranted negative comments on websites like this one but its just that, a theory. There is no shortage of things that have changed because of the internet and the willingness of supporters to boo their team at HT in the first game of the season might be one of those changes.
Really? I think you're falling into the trap of assuming websites like this have a much bigger role than they do.
I certainly know that the people around where I sit have no idea of the existence of this website let alone take their lead from it.
There are probably a hardcore of about 50-100 people who post regularly on this web site.
There are usually that many people in front of me in the queue when I go for my twice-a-season pint at half time in the Upper Trinity.
I doubt it is the prolific posters who are influenced, we tend to be people who hold firm opinions about this kind of stuff. How many people read these websites and are perhaps influenced by what they read? I doubt it would have been as many as 10% of the supporters booing that day. It seems feasible that some of them may have been influenced by what they read on forum websites.
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It clearly wasn’t simply a reaction to the first half performance, which was poor, but at 0-1 down not disastrous. It wasn’t the previous season as a whole and it wasn’t our home form, which was just as good or as bad as many other seasons. Booing the team off when a single goal down at half time in the first game of the season is a very strange thing to have happened. Something else was at play.
Witchcraft?
Seriously, though, what was at play?
I'm not sure. I just know it wasn't an ordinary reaction.
I have a theory that it is related to people reading the constant stream of unwarranted negative comments on websites like this one but its just that, a theory. There is no shortage of things that have changed because of the internet and the willingness of supporters to boo their team at HT in the first game of the season might be one of those changes.
Really? I think you're falling into the trap of assuming websites like this have a much bigger role than they do.
I certainly know that the people around where I sit have no idea of the existence of this website let alone take their lead from it.
There are probably a hardcore of about 50-100 people who post regularly on this web site.
There are usually that many people in front of me in the queue when I go for my twice-a-season pint at half time in the Upper Trinity.
I doubt it is the prolific posters who are influenced, we tend to be people who hold firm opinions about this kind of stuff. How many people read these websites and are perhaps influenced by what they read? I doubt it would have been as many as 10% of the supporters booing that day. It seems feasible that some of them may have been influenced by what they read on forum websites.
You don't seem to have much of an opinion of your fellow supporters if you think they can be influenced by a handful of comments on the internet.
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We'll never know one way or the other for sure but i find the idea the booers were driven to any large degree by reading things on places like this highly unlikely. Don't you usually refer to the miserablists as a noisy minority? That's some noise.
Did you see my post at the bottom of the last page, btw?
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You don't seem to have much of an opinion of your fellow supporters if you think they can be influenced by a handful of comments on the internet.
If it were only a handful of comments I don't think it would have an effect.
I have a very high opinion of my fellow supporters thanks but I'm also sure some of them see fanzine websites as useful and authoritative sources of information about the club. As Risso says, most of them won't be spending time working out our home stats for the last ten years (nor me, I just use statto.com), they'll read opinions and sometimes form their own opinions on the basis of what they read.
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We took 30 points and only once in the last 13 seasons have we accumulated more than 33 points and that was in the GTII season.
Having checked, that is truly excellent spin, VD.
What does 33 points have to do with it?
We took 30 points. Not 33.
The booing against Wigan was the first game of the 2009/10 season, and followed the 2008/9 season.
2008/9 - 30 points
As reference, by comparison
2007/8 - 33 points
2006/7 - 29 points
2005/6 - 24 points
2004/5 - 30 points
2003/4 - 33 points
2002/3 - 35 points - for a team which finished 16th.
2001/2 - 31 points
2000/1 - 32 points
1999/0 - 32 points
1998/9 - 33 points
So, actually, we'd only score fewer points twice in the preceeding ten years. We also didn't have a billionaire benefactor pumping in money for most of those years, either.
In 8 of those years we have accumulated between 29-33 points and that makes getting 30 points ordinary, which is what I said it was. I also pointed out that the 35 points was the GTII season so I'm not sure what spin has to do with it. Don't those stats show you that we didn't have an unusually terrible home season?
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Over that period our average points total at home is 31.1 points (Obviously 05/06 dragged it down somewhat).
So you could say that 08/09 was a below average season (up to that point our average was 31.2 points)
Last season we scored 32 points at home, so was above average.
However, what these stats don't tell you is how we actually performed. Yes, we earned more points than the previous couple of seasons, but the standard of football on offer has, in my opinion, deteriorated.
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I am: "the mean height for UK adult males of 5'10" and yes, John Carew is taller than me.
You're very quick to defend your vertical aspirations, Maz but I'd like some proof. A photo of you next to, say, a pencil or a grasshoppers knee.
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Really? I think you're falling into the trap of assuming websites like this have a much bigger role than they do.
I certainly know that the people around where I sit have no idea of the existence of this website let alone take their lead from it.
I think it's a common misconception among some people who use the internet regularly that everybody else does too.
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what is going on???
(by the way - check out the date of the post)
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You omit the rationale that many fans like to boo. I know I do. In 1950 we booed Amos Moss so much that the manager took him off and preferred to play with ten men.
Then again I am a pretty faint hearted fair weather fan. I am also nasty by nature. For instance I have not forgiven Mark Halsey for the Henry free kick despite his brave recovery from cancer.
Besides booing is very good for the cardiovascular system and probably strengthens my aforementioned faint heart.
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I must admit Brian, all those years of standing or sitting, home and away and listening and sometimes joining in with the boos during some atrocious games and performances, especially on the way down to Div 3 I find it amazing I'm at fault for offering negative views on present day Villa via the odd web offering.
I'm sure its more to do with the slugs eating my lettuce or those butterflies as they wing their way home to the Patagonian jungle :)
Mind you perhaps RL keeps reading the views of the likes of Chris or Mazrim and that's why O'Neill still has a job.
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You don't seem to have much of an opinion of your fellow supporters if you think they can be influenced by a handful of comments on the internet.
If it were only a handful of comments I don't think it would have an effect.
I have a very high opinion of my fellow supporters thanks but I'm also sure some of them see fanzine websites as useful and authoritative sources of information about the club. As Risso says, most of them won't be spending time working out our home stats for the last ten years (nor me, I just use statto.com), they'll read opinions and sometimes form their own opinions on the basis of what they read.
You have a high opinion of them, you just think they're gullible. Charming.
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You don't seem to have much of an opinion of your fellow supporters if you think they can be influenced by a handful of comments on the internet.
If it were only a handful of comments I don't think it would have an effect.
I have a very high opinion of my fellow supporters thanks but I'm also sure some of them see fanzine websites as useful and authoritative sources of information about the club. As Risso says, most of them won't be spending time working out our home stats for the last ten years (nor me, I just use statto.com), they'll read opinions and sometimes form their own opinions on the basis of what they read.
You have a high opinion of them, you just think they're gullible. Charming.
Most people don't have the time or inclination to study the comings and goings at VP to any great extent.
Are you saying that you think these websites have no relevance and only gullible people rely on you and the other mods to provide an impartial reference site for what is happening at the Villa?
Would that apply to people who buy printed fanzines or is it just the internet ones?
Edited:
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A home game against against Wigan just after the the season previous that had promised so much and ended so disappontingly. get the season under way with 3 points and banish the memories of a slump which really got a lo of people down.
0-2 and outplayed. The booing was a kneejerk reaction.
On a wider perspective, do you think we as a club have recovered from Moscow? Not just the playing side but the feel good factor around the place. If we had lost thta game and got to the final of the League Cup and semi of the FA Cup I think last season would have still had a ringing endorsement of, 'Proud History...'. It sounds overly dramatic but MON killed something that day that we have never been able to recapture.
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Less Moscow, and more Stoke that followed it. I really haven't felt the same about the club since.
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Less Moscow, and more Stoke that followed it. I really haven't felt the same about the club since.
Yeah, but Stoke was a football thing whereas Moscow seemed to detract from the aura of Villa being the bright new upstarts that were a match for anyone. Then we threw in the towel.
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See, that's what I thought Stoke did. We threw away Moscow for fourth spot, fine, but then we buggered up at home to Stoke and looked primely like choking. From then onwards it seemed a formality.
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I agree, Moscow turned a lot of fans against o neill, having fought so hard to get that far , to then throw in the towel was appalling management- I notice he always played his best team in Europe at Celtic!
That was the turning point for me , and nothing he's done since has convinced me he's the man to get us into the top 4!
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We can't keep bringing up Moscow. Rightly or wrongly, it's gone, it's happened, it's in the past. It's about time fans got over it.
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I agree, Moscow turned a lot of fans against o neill, having fought so hard to get that far , to then throw in the towel was appalling management- I notice he always played his best team in Europe at Celtic!
That was the turning point for me , and nothing he's done since has convinced me he's the man to get us into the top 4!
I completely agreed wit his decision as did a lot of people I know. If the Stoke game had turned out differently I don't think we'd hear about Moscow anywhere near as much.
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A great indicator of how much of the euphoria and excitement we have lost from a few seasons ago was evident at last nights Valencia game. The attendance, the feel good factor, the optimism, none of it was there.
Trace your mind back a few seasons ago and the friendly we had against Inter Milan and judge for yourself the massive contrasts in opinions of the season ahead.
100% support for Mon. It has disappeared. Last night just proves it.
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Less Moscow, and more Stoke that followed it. I really haven't felt the same about the club since.
Yeah, but Stoke was a football thing whereas Moscow seemed to detract from the aura of Villa being the bright new upstarts that were a match for anyone. Then we threw in the towel.
I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
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I am: "the mean height for UK adult males of 5'10" and yes, John Carew is taller than me.
You're very quick to defend your vertical aspirations, Maz but I'd like some proof. A photo of you next to, say, a pencil or a grasshoppers knee.
I'm 35 and my vertical aspirations have sadly ended.
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A great indicator of how much of the euphoria and excitement we have lost from a few seasons ago was evident at last nights Valencia game. The attendance, the feel good factor, the optimism, none of it was there.
Trace your mind back a few seasons ago and the friendly we had against Inter Milan and judge for yourself the massive contrasts in opinions of the season ahead.
100% support for Mon. It has disappeared. Last night just proves it.
20,000 for a friendly, with no new signings, and live on national free-to-air-tv?
That just proves we've still got bloody good support in my book.
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A great indicator of how much of the euphoria and excitement we have lost from a few seasons ago was evident at last nights Valencia game. The attendance, the feel good factor, the optimism, none of it was there.
Trace your mind back a few seasons ago and the friendly we had against Inter Milan and judge for yourself the massive contrasts in opinions of the season ahead.
100% support for Mon. It has disappeared. Last night just proves it.
20,000 for a friendly, with no new signings, and live on national free-to-air-tv?
That just proves we've still got bloody good support in my book.
Be interesting to see how many are at the Ninth Level of Hell today. £5 in, £2 to season ticket holders, compared to £15 and a fiver for kids at our ground last night. And they've got new signings, and it's not on telly.
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I thought you were a happy in your nappy clapper Percy.
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A great indicator of how much of the euphoria and excitement we have lost from a few seasons ago was evident at last nights Valencia game. The attendance, the feel good factor, the optimism, none of it was there.
Trace your mind back a few seasons ago and the friendly we had against Inter Milan and judge for yourself the massive contrasts in opinions of the season ahead.
100% support for Mon. It has disappeared. Last night just proves it.
20,000 for a friendly, with no new signings, and live on national free-to-air-tv?
That just proves we've still got bloody good support in my book.
That's what I thought, I can remember when we were getting that sort of crowd for league games so to use it as a criticism seems misplaced to me.
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I agree, I think all things considered (don't forget it was also on a Friday evening) the crowd was very good for the Valencia match.
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
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A great indicator of how much of the euphoria and excitement we have lost from a few seasons ago was evident at last nights Valencia game. The attendance, the feel good factor, the optimism, none of it was there.
Trace your mind back a few seasons ago and the friendly we had against Inter Milan and judge for yourself the massive contrasts in opinions of the season ahead.
100% support for Mon. It has disappeared. Last night just proves it.
20,000 for a friendly, with no new signings, and live on national free-to-air-tv?
That just proves we've still got bloody good support in my book.
Be interesting to see how many are at the Ninth Level of Hell today. £5 in, £2 to season ticket holders, compared to £15 and a fiver for kids at our ground last night. And they've got new signings, and it's not on telly.
10k at small heath. Considering the factors I mentioned above - embarrassing. Especially for the ones who text me Friday night taking the piss out of the Villa crowd.
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I'm 35 and my vertical aspirations have sadly ended.
[/quote]
tsk tsk Jabba.. remember the party line is we are all 28
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But no links in the article in question, and spurious numbers with regards to the amount of Villa staff, no breakdown as to whether these are highly paid players or just 20K a year admin bods or waitresses in the Corner Flag.
The numbers related to Villa staff are not spurious and are taken direct from the RAL accounts ending 31 May 2009. A more detailed breakdown is as follows:
2009 (2008)
Players, football management and coaches 134 (86)
Commercial, merchandising and operations 168 (157)
Maintenance and administration 99 (76)
Community projects staff 44 (17)
Total full-time employees 445 (336)
Part-time employess on matchdays/other events 953 (941)
Interesting jump in numbers of players etc from 2008.
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But no links in the article in question, and spurious numbers with regards to the amount of Villa staff, no breakdown as to whether these are highly paid players or just 20K a year admin bods or waitresses in the Corner Flag.
The numbers related to Villa staff are not spurious and are taken direct from the RAL accounts ending 31 May 2009. A more detailed breakdown is as follows:
2009 (2008)
Players, football management and coaches 134 (86)
Commercial, merchandising and operations 168 (157)
Maintenance and administration 99 (76)
Community projects staff 44 (17)
Total full-time employees 445 (336)
Part-time employess on matchdays/other events 953 (941)
Interesting jump in numbers of players etc from 2008.
That is a surprising leap in numbers of "Players, football management and coaches", it looks like they decided to account for something in a different way.
The Spurs £60.5m "staff costs" relates to only 286 employees in total, that seems a bit odd doesn't it?
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Not if they sub-contract a lot of work out it doesn't.
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Still, the whole point of Robobabble's article was to try to justify why we pay more in wages to players than Tottingham yet still managed to finish two places below them, or he was trying to make out that actually we don't pay more in wages than Tottingham...I don't really know, the whole article was badly written arse.
Just a word of caution really, treat anything coming from this source with real caution, the bloke is a dribbly twat.
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One premier league footballer on 40k a week is 2m pounds a year.
2m pounds a year = 100 staff on 20k a year.
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One premier league footballer on 40k a week is 2m pounds a year.
2m pounds a year = 100 staff on 20k a year.
and the fact that Spurs have several more PL players than we do, players that cost much more to purchase than ours did, is what made the assertion that their players costs are lower suspicious in the first place.
The "staff costs" figures clearly doesn't tell the whole story and isn't a like for like comparison. It simply isn't a "fact" that we pay more for player costs than Spurs on the basis of that particular line item in the accounts.
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Is this your subtle way of telling us that it still doesn't compute for you that Tottenham have a lower wage bill?
I know that this is a passion of yours -along with the latest flight of fantasy that websites such as these have a negative bearing on club morale- and I admire your stamina.
But as has been pointed out various times before, even if Spurs paid big transfer fees for Modric or players from lower leagues, said players usually command lower wages than those already in the Premiership.
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Is this your subtle way of telling us that it still doesn't compute for you that Tottenham have a lower wage bill?
I know that this is a passion of yours -along with the latest flight of fantasy that websites such as these have a negative bearing on club morale- and I admire your stamina.
But as has been pointed out various times before, even if Spurs paid big transfer fees for Modric or players from lower leagues, said players usually command lower wages than those already in the Premiership.
Why would I be subtle, I just disagree. It doesn't compute for me because the facts don't stack up.
It doesn't make any sense to suggest that Spurs spend less to pay their players than we do and there is no evidence to say that Spurs spend less to pay their players than we do. The suggestion that there is evidence to support your view came about because of a misunderstand that you could compare the "staff costs" line item in the Villa and Spurs accounts on a like for like basis. You can't. Does that compute OK for you?
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Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one.
Huddlestone
Lennon
Dawson
Bale
Naughton
Walker
All signed from lower league clubs.
Gomes
Pavlyuchenko
Modric
Dos Santos
Assou-Ekotto
Hutton
All signed from leagues outside of England.
A good chunk of that lot make up the first team, or are crucial squad members.
Could this have an impact on their wage bill being lower?
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Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one.
Huddlestone
Lennon
Dawson
Bale
Naughton
Walker
All signed from lower league clubs.
Gomes
Pavlyuchenko
Modric
Dos Santos
Assou-Ekotto
Hutton
All signed from leagues outside of England.
A good chunk of that lot make up the first team, or are crucial squad members.
Could this have an impact on their wage bill being lower?
Only if you think they and their agents turn up at Spurs as bumbling peasants. Do you honestly believe that players like Dos Santos walked in from Barcelona and took a small wage simply because he was coming from a foreign league? Or that their wasn't a significant signing on fee paid to Modric out of the £16m+ that Spurs supposedly paid for him?
Even with your list of expensive foreigners and lower league players, i wouldn't be surprised if Spurs have also signed as many if not more PL players as we have in the last few seasons.
I honestly don't know what Villa and Spurs pay in player costs, I don't think you do either. I've only argued that there is no evidence that Villa pay less Spurs.
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The fact that Dos Santos comes from Barca hardly means he was on a big wage, or would be in a position to demand it. Even if he is on a large wage for a young player, it will be a comparatively low wage. Similarly Modric, though Dinamo got a large fee for him after a bidding war, would have considered a good deal to be around £25k a week - which is, in fact, what he was paid.
Spurs may well have signed a lot of Premier League players, but mostly since 'Arry came back and vomited money for Keane, Defoe and Palacios. The other players were young players, often from lower leagues, and foreign players from leagues where the average wage is not what it is in the Premier League (let's face it, nowhere is like the Premier League). The fact is that Spurs have managed their players wages better than we have, overall, barring the odd blip (Pavlyuchenko was a classic bad signing). It's also a fact, I believe, that they've been accumulating for longer than we have, so over the last few years have not so much been building a team as building a squad. MON's had to spend his first few years incrementally improving our first team with the only players available. Hopefully now we're getting a squad.
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Is this your subtle way of telling us that it still doesn't compute for you that Tottenham have a lower wage bill?
I know that this is a passion of yours -along with the latest flight of fantasy that websites such as these have a negative bearing on club morale- and I admire your stamina.
But as has been pointed out various times before, even if Spurs paid big transfer fees for Modric or players from lower leagues, said players usually command lower wages than those already in the Premiership.
What it is, is him making an argument for so long, being proven to be incorrect, then absolutely refusing to believe he's wrong, even when presented with evidence to that effect.
There's no point arguing with him on it. Risso tried explaining to him why his arguments on the way Spurs present things in their accounts was fundamentally flawed, but he still wasn't having it.
You could come up with wage slips for every player of each club, but that would only start off some other line of refusal, probably that the Spurs players earn the same again via some dodgy slush fund.
This argument re Spurs and wages is all a bit Albion really, whingeing that we can't compete with teams because they paying so much more than we do, even when they actually don't, a bit fingers-in-ears, stamping feet and shouting "it ay fair!"
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Is this your subtle way of telling us that it still doesn't compute for you that Tottenham have a lower wage bill?
I know that this is a passion of yours -along with the latest flight of fantasy that websites such as these have a negative bearing on club morale- and I admire your stamina.
But as has been pointed out various times before, even if Spurs paid big transfer fees for Modric or players from lower leagues, said players usually command lower wages than those already in the Premiership.
Why would I be subtle, I just disagree. It doesn't compute for me because the facts don't stack up.
It doesn't make any sense to suggest that Spurs spend less to pay their players than we do and there is no evidence to say that Spurs spend less to pay their players than we do. The suggestion that there is evidence to support your view came about because of a misunderstand that you could compare the "staff costs" line item in the Villa and Spurs accounts on a like for like basis. You can't. Does that compute OK for you?
Where is that you think these costs are being "hidden". I already explained why your theory about the contingent liabilities was completely wrong.
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
So a person's view now has to be fashionable does it?
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
So a person's view now has to be fashionable does it?
yeah it has to be fashionable! this weeks in vogue view is that Milner is going only for extra money! :oD
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
So a person's view now has to be fashionable does it?
I'm one of those that agreed with what he did in Moscow - and yes, I know I'm in a minority on that. The way i view it is we can't know what would have happened on an artifical pitch in the middle of winter for a game we were likely to lose anyway. Had Gabby or Ash got injured he'd get just as much stick for risking them.
I think the whole reason for the dinner wasn't to say 'we were wrong' - it was to say 'sorry for your expense'. I think Martin's said that should he do something similar again he'll make it clear so people know whether to travel or not!
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What it is, is him making an argument for so long, being proven to be incorrect, then absolutely refusing to believe he's wrong, even when presented with evidence to that effect.
There's no point arguing with him on it. Risso tried explaining to him why his arguments on the way Spurs present things in their accounts was fundamentally flawed, but he still wasn't having it.
You could come up with wage slips for every player of each club, but that would only start off some other line of refusal, probably that the Spurs players earn the same again via some dodgy slush fund.
This argument re Spurs and wages is all a bit Albion really, whingeing that we can't compete with teams because they paying so much more than we do, even when they actually don't, a bit fingers-in-ears, stamping feet and shouting "it ay fair!"
Let me respond to your last point first. This discussion didn’t come about because I or anyone else was “whingeing” about us not being able to compete with teams spending more money than us. It came about because of your insistence that Spurs have a lower wage bill for their players and that this was evidence that Harry Redknapp was a better manager than Martin O’Neill. The reasoning being that it was “- Fact -” that he got his team higher in the league whilst paying his players less than we do. That was the argument as I understood it.
I’ve made my point repeatedly that you aren’t comparing like for like as best I could and have left it at that. Several times.
You have felt it necessary to bring it up over and over again and each time you bring it up, you reset the discussion by insisting it is a fact that Spurs pay their players more than we do and refer to me as someone who doesn’t know or understand what he is talking about. This thread is a good case in point
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I think you probably read that on here from someone who refuses to acknowledge the fact - fact - that our wage bill is bigger than Spurs.
I’m sorry if I misunderstood but I took that quote to be referring to me.
You make the point about “wage slips” as if to suggest that the evidence that you and Risso have used to present your side of the argument is as objective and irrefutable as seeing the detailed figures for player costs. It isn’t, it isn’t even close.
The argument I have been having with you for so long is that you shouldn’t take the “staff costs” figures from the two sets of accounts and assume that you are comparing like for like. Unfortunately, the two sets of accounts aren’t detailed enough to be able to say with any certainty, which club pays its playing squad the most.
As I said the last time you brought this up, I’m bored with this argument. I’d rather be talking about the opinion that the £70m staff costs we pay is unsustainable; when the Sunday Times yesterday reported yesterday that the average staff costs for Premier League clubs as a whole is £66.4m. I’m not sure why when we’re paying only 5% above the average, so many fans are supporting the General's view that “What we see right now is the Club getting a handle on the wage side of the house. This is no different than what we have done once before. This means we have to sell some players...”
Just for the record. I don’t think there is anything “dodgy” about how Spurs account for their player costs. I’m sure it is all above board and legal. I’ve never said otherwise. I just think that they arrange their operations and account for their costs in a different way to RAL.
I'm sorry for the long post and I'm sure you'll find something in it to nitpick over but unless you've got something new or substantive to say, I'll just leave you to have the last word on the subject . Again.
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Did you miss my question Villadawg? Where is that you think the extra amounts Spurs are paying their players are included in their accounts?
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Is this your subtle way of telling us that it still doesn't compute for you that Tottenham have a lower wage bill?
I know that this is a passion of yours -along with the latest flight of fantasy that websites such as these have a negative bearing on club morale- and I admire your stamina.
But as has been pointed out various times before, even if Spurs paid big transfer fees for Modric or players from lower leagues, said players usually command lower wages than those already in the Premiership.
Why would I be subtle, I just disagree. It doesn't compute for me because the facts don't stack up.
It doesn't make any sense to suggest that Spurs spend less to pay their players than we do and there is no evidence to say that Spurs spend less to pay their players than we do. The suggestion that there is evidence to support your view came about because of a misunderstand that you could compare the "staff costs" line item in the Villa and Spurs accounts on a like for like basis. You can't. Does that compute OK for you?
Where is that you think these costs are being "hidden". I already explained why your theory about the contingent liabilities was completely wrong.
I don't think they are hidden or even "hidden". I think that some of the costs that Villa report in their "staff costs", are legitimately reported in the Spurs accounts within the £31.3m "Other operating costs" and/or the £38m "Amortisation, impairments and other net football trading income and expenditure". The difference in comparable costs may relate to outsourced operations, media rights and signing on fees etc...
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
So a person's view now has to be fashionable does it?
No. It's just that I understood that you were offended that O'Neill had said "Oh, shut up" to someone last year soon after it had happened. I would have thought you'd be over it by now.
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I don't think they are hidden or even "hidden". I think that some of the costs that Villa report in their "staff costs", are legitimately reported in the Spurs accounts within the £31.3m "Other operating costs" and/or the £38m "Amortisation, impairments and other net football trading income and expenditure". The difference in comparable costs may relate to outsourced operations, media rights and signing on fees etc...
The £38m amortisation and other payments amount includes £37.2m of actual amortisation. So that's a huge £880K of "other expenditure." Signing on fees are included in here, so can't be in "other operating costs".
As for image rights, it's hard to say, but typically they're believed to be 10% of players' salaries. So they're just as likely to apply to Villa players, as they are Spurs. Seeing as our parent company is a Delaware company (ie low taxation jurisdiction) it's hard to imagine that Randy doesn't take full advantage of tax planning possibilities.
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
So a person's view now has to be fashionable does it?
No. It's just that I understood that you were offended that O'Neill had said "Oh, shut up" to someone last year soon after it had happened. I would have thought you'd be over it by now.
Not half as offended as the person it was addressed to and the others on his table.
Sorry if my interpretation of events differ from your Official opinion.
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I don't think they are hidden or even "hidden". I think that some of the costs that Villa report in their "staff costs", are legitimately reported in the Spurs accounts within the £31.3m "Other operating costs" and/or the £38m "Amortisation, impairments and other net football trading income and expenditure". The difference in comparable costs may relate to outsourced operations, media rights and signing on fees etc...
The £38m amortisation and other payments amount includes £37.2m of actual amortisation. So that's a huge £880K of "other expenditure." Signing on fees are included in here, so can't be in "other operating costs".
As for image rights, it's hard to say, but typically they're believed to be 10% of players' salaries. So they're just as likely to apply to Villa players, as they are Spurs. Seeing as our parent company is a Delaware company (ie low taxation jurisdiction) it's hard to imagine that Randy doesn't take full advantage of tax planning possibilities.
That's fine, we agree that "staff costs" isn't necessarily a like for like comparison.
I genuinely don't know the answer to this question. Am I right in thinking that player signing on fees could be capitalised and amortised over the period of the contract? If so, could those figures be classified as impairment of intangible assets and therefore come under the £37.2m of actual amortisation?
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
So a person's view now has to be fashionable does it?
No. It's just that I understood that you were offended that O'Neill had said "Oh, shut up" to someone last year soon after it had happened. I would have thought you'd be over it by now.
Not half as offended as the person it was addressed to and the others on his table.
Sorry if my interpretation of events differ from your Official opinion.
What, he was THAT offended because he was told to shut up? Offended easily isn't he?
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^^^^^^
To be fair Bred_d, you needed to be there to realise why he and his fellow diners were so offended.
Everybody we have spoken to who was at the dinner were shocked by the venom in MoN's voice.
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I thought it was an appalling decision but it didn't have a big impact on how I feel about the club. I thought by holding the dinner they had acknowledged that it was a mistake.
They had acknowledged the mistake that 'they' had made. It is a pity that O'Neill told the bloke to 'shut up' in such a disgusting manner, after he had asked a perfectly valid question. I suspect he treats the players like that when they say or do something that he disagrees with.
That reason for wanting him gone is so last season.
So a person's view now has to be fashionable does it?
No. It's just that I understood that you were offended that O'Neill had said "Oh, shut up" to someone last year soon after it had happened. I would have thought you'd be over it by now.
Not half as offended as the person it was addressed to and the others on his table.
Sorry if my interpretation of events differ from your Official opinion.
I'm not sure what the difference in interpretation is. The version I heard was that O'Neill gave 30 min speech, somebody followed that up with something like "why did you bother entering the competition in the first place" (which some people interpreted as disrespectful and argumentative) , O'Neill replied "oh, shut up", somebody later commented to Faulkner on it, Faulkner spoke to O'Neill, O'Neill apologised to the chap in case he had been offended.
As someone who was there, you'll obviously have a clearer interpretation.
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Stupid questions piss me off too.
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Stupid questions piss me off too.
"Maz, Barry Lose 'ere.
I'm not at 'da game 'coz I'm workin or summfink. Do u fink 'da bloose cud finnish abuv 'da (stutters)v..v..v..villabastuds?"
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Oh shut up.
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I honestly don't know what Villa and Spurs pay in player costs, I don't think you do either. I've only argued that there is no evidence that Villa pay less Spurs.
Maybe we will know if Ashley Young goes to Spurs. Isn't that all about who pays the most?
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Well that's not going to happen.
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^^^^^^
To be fair Bred_d, you needed to be there to realise why he and his fellow diners were so offended.
Everybody we have spoken to who was at the dinner were shocked by the venom in MoN's voice.
Seriously though, how offended can anybody really be by "Oh shut up" regardless of the measure of venom it's delivered with?
My guess is that MON probably heard the same question about 50 times since the event and was thoroughly sick to death of hearing it. I think it's a dumb ass question in any case and got the correct response given MON's explanation something that the questioner was all to well aware off.
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football fans throw out insults like it's going out of fashion, yet one retort at a stupid question gets our backs up. In my opinion he got what he deserved.
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You heard it here first!
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Sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one.
Huddlestone
Lennon
Dawson
Bale
Naughton
Walker
All signed from lower league clubs.
Gomes
Pavlyuchenko
Modric
Dos Santos
Assou-Ekotto
Hutton
All signed from leagues outside of England.
A good chunk of that lot make up the first team, or are crucial squad members.
Could this have an impact on their wage bill being lower?
Only if you think they and their agents turn up at Spurs as bumbling peasants. Do you honestly believe that players like Dos Santos walked in from Barcelona and took a small wage simply because he was coming from a foreign league? Or that their wasn't a significant signing on fee paid to Modric out of the £16m+ that Spurs supposedly paid for him?
Even with your list of expensive foreigners and lower league players, i wouldn't be surprised if Spurs have also signed as many if not more PL players as we have in the last few seasons.
I honestly don't know what Villa and Spurs pay in player costs, I don't think you do either. I've only argued that there is no evidence that Villa pay less Spurs.
Well I know the reported costs re the respective staff costs. It also doesn't take a genius to work out that players wages make up the bulk of that. Unless you want to go the conspiracy theory route, which you apparently don't now. So progress, of sorts.
Tottenham (and quite frankly I'm bored of seeing that name, much less typing it) target their players from a wider selection pool than we do; lower leagues, Europe and occasionally further afield. The benefit of this is -as Monty pointed out- they can acquire a young player from Barcelona or Croatia and pay him less than a Nicky Shorey or Steve Sidwell.
If you limit yourself to the English topflight (or players who have been recently relegated from it) you pay a premium. And we've been paying a premium on the bulk of our signings since 2007.
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You heard it here first!
I heard it lousy tabloids first and I'll be consistent with what I thought of their scoops too.
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Well done to you DC5, you called this one right.
the End is nigh, has now come,
there were those who doubted, but you have been proved right,
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DC5 - any chance you can do my Lottery numbers this week ?
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I think David Moyes would jump at the chance to take on a club like us, without the financial problems he has at Everton. I also think there's a lot of top European managers who would welcome a Premier League club on their CV, even before the daft wages they'd pick up.
But as OMVF said, it's all hypothetical for the moment because there doesn't seem much chance of Martin leaving.
What a difference a week makes and we both didn't see it coming as quickly as it has.
So now that it is a real vacancy, who do you think.
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You heard it here first!
Smart Arse!!
Moscow seems a long time ago but that was definitely the beginning of the end and now, after yesterdays events, I think we can conclude that it was MON who made the decision to forego the Europa Cup,
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I was, and am, a MON supporter. The field of replacement managers looks weak - yet there is hope.
Invariably Managers stay too long at a club, and there is a "Managerial Cycle".Although things look bleak at the moment, a "left field" choice could reinvigorate the club.
Although a lot could go wrong, it could go right too ( Wenger to Arsenal, Moyes to Everton were not nailed on success stories).
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Just a quick point. The "you heard it here first" was regarding Young going to Spurs, which isnt and never was going to happen. Apart from that, this was a thread about being time for MON to go. Which of course it wasnt being 5 days to the start of the season.
Nobody, not even the owner, none of the usual "ITK" folks had wind of MON leaving before yesterday.
Wishful thinking doesnt count.
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Just a quick point. The "you heard it here first" was regarding Young going to Spurs, which isnt and never was going to happen. Apart from that, this was a thread about being time for MON to go. Which of course it wasnt being 5 days to the start of the season.
Nobody, not even the owner, none of the usual "ITK" folks had wind of MON leaving before yesterday.
Wishful thinking doesnt count.
there is plenty of people who have suspected things we not good between those at the top for a while,
a few saying they wouldnt be supprised if MON left before the start of the season,
yes of coarse it was speculation, thats what most things are on here, but there was plenty of people who said it was rubbish and there was no problems, they were wrong
DC5 got a lot of stick with this thread, he has been proved completly correct,
your jibe of wishfull thinking is just crap, just accept someone got it right, and others totaly wrong, it happens.
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Just a quick point. The "you heard it here first" was regarding Young going to Spurs,
No it wasn't, it was regarding O'Neill going.
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Just a quick point. The "you heard it here first" was regarding Young going to Spurs,
No it wasn't, it was regarding O'Neill going.
It's the one good thing to come out of this so far. DC5 and Martin O'Neill were reconciled in agreement that it was time for him to go. Nearly everyone else seems to feel it wasn't a good time.
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I will speak on behalf of DC5 here as he is in meetings all day.
He didn't say, as far as I'm aware, that the timing was right at all. He stated that after speaking with other supporters in Portugal and some ITK information we had been given, the end was nigh.
Nobody, not even the club, expected it to be now, at what can only be the worst possible time for O'Neill to go.
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O'Neill is now out of favour with a high percentage of fans. I understand that he has a bad relationship with the press. His coaching staff, apart from reserves and youth, are useless. Time for him to go.
Think DC5 called it right. Isn't the thread called The End Is Nigh rather than Young to Spurs?
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Yep.
With one big exception, DC5 has got form for calling it right. We could do a lot worse than listen to him
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I'm going to listen to him closely, as soon as he's out of that meeting i'm going to ask him how to ease my bad back.
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I will speak on behalf of DC5 here as he is in meetings all day.
He didn't say, as far as I'm aware, that the timing was right at all. He stated that after speaking with other supporters in Portugal and some ITK information we had been given, the end was nigh.
Nobody, not even the club, expected it to be now, at what can only be the worst possible time for O'Neill to go.
I'm confused. He started a thread called "The end is nigh" and in his opening post said it was time to go. Do you mean this isn't what he wanted?
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I will speak on behalf of DC5 here as he is in meetings all day.
He didn't say, as far as I'm aware, that the timing was right at all. He stated that after speaking with other supporters in Portugal and some ITK information we had been given, the end was nigh.
Nobody, not even the club, expected it to be now, at what can only be the worst possible time for O'Neill to go.
I'm confused. He started a thread called "The end is nigh" and in his opening post said it was time to go. Do you mean this isn't what he wanted?
doesnt matter whether he wanted it or not, although i suspect he isnt to choked up about it,
he said in his opening post that MON had fell out of favour and had bad relationships with certain groups,
which is pretty much spot on, with what we now know has happened
i'm sticking up for DC5 because he had the balls to post what he thought, and had picked up from Portugal,
thats a part of what the forums are for, people agreed or disagreed thats also what happenes on the site,
so when a poster calls it right, he deserves some credit
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I'm going to listen to him closely, as soon as he's out of that meeting i'm going to ask him how to ease my bad back.
>chuckle<
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I'm going to listen to him closely, as soon as he's out of that meeting i'm going to ask him how to ease my bad back.
>chuckle<
Oi Mrs Clark Five, it's the Doc I want to see not the receptionist!
I sneezed yesterday and knackered my back, are you able to prescribe painkillers? If not, i'll wait until the (frankly, long) meeting is finished if you can fix me up an appointment?
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i'm sticking up for DC5 because he had the balls to post what he thought, and had picked up from Portugal,
thats a part of what the forums are for, people agreed or disagreed thats also what happenes on the site,
Well quite.
You can bet your bottom dollar that if MON had still been here at Christmas someone would have dug up this thread to prove how they were right and DC5 was wrong.
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I will speak on behalf of DC5 here as he is in meetings all day.
He didn't say, as far as I'm aware, that the timing was right at all. He stated that after speaking with other supporters in Portugal and some ITK information we had been given, the end was nigh.
Nobody, not even the club, expected it to be now, at what can only be the worst possible time for O'Neill to go.
I'm confused. He started a thread called "The end is nigh" and in his opening post said it was time to go. Do you mean this isn't what he wanted?
doesnt matter whether he wanted it or not, although i suspect he isnt to choked up about it,
he said in his opening post that MON had fell out of favour and had bad relationships with certain groups,
which is pretty much spot on, with what we now know has happened
i'm sticking up for DC5 because he had the balls to post what he thought, and had picked up from Portugal,
thats a part of what the forums are for, people agreed or disagreed thats also what happenes on the site,
so when a poster calls it right, he deserves some credit
I didn't think he called it right. I thought he was expressing an opinion of what he felt (and what he felt the majority also felt). He didn't say it was going to happen. He was implying it should.
There was someone on football rumours (or wherever it was) that someone else asked DC5 whether it was him who DID state that MON would be gone once the televised friendly was out of the way. Whether it was a genuine ITK or just one of many hunches that are thrown out there and on this occasion happen to have proved right, we don't yet know.
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I'm going to listen to him closely, as soon as he's out of that meeting i'm going to ask him how to ease my bad back.
>chuckle<
Oi Mrs Clark Five, it's the Doc I want to see not the receptionist!
I sneezed yesterday and knackered my back, are you able to prescribe painkillers? If not, i'll wait until the (frankly, long) meeting is finished if you can fix me up an appointment?
>even bigger chuckle<
Thanks for making me smile. Much needed.
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Is he out of that bloody 'meeting' yet?
I've got to take Billy up to bed at 9 and when I stand up it takes me ages to straighten up, once he spots a weakness i'm in trouble here.
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Just a quick point. The "you heard it here first" was regarding Young going to Spurs,
No it wasn't, it was regarding O'Neill going.
Right, so when I said "that's not going to hapen" regarding Young leaving to go to spurs and he said "you heard it here first", it wasnt in reply to me?
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Is he out of that bloody 'meeting' yet?
I've got to take Billy up to bed at 9 and when I stand up it takes me ages to straighten up, once he spots a weakness i'm in trouble here.
He's out of the meeting but then had to sell our tickets for the Oval on 20th before he booked our flights to Vienna - couldn't go to both.
He is now at Westfield shopping centre, Shepherds Bush, buying a very special person some birthday presents.
Maybe Mrs J would take Billy to bed tonight.
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Just a quick point. The "you heard it here first" was regarding Young going to Spurs,
No it wasn't, it was regarding O'Neill going.
Right, so when I said "that's not going to hapen" regarding Young leaving to go to spurs and he said "you heard it here first", it wasnt in reply to me?
No, it wasn't. It was a quick message he posted from his phone while in a meeting after I'd texted him about the situation. He hadn't read previous posts.
Anyway, he'll be back at his hotel soon from buying lots of expensive birthday presents for a very special person. He can then speak for himself.
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Fair enough then Pauline. Just a communication breakdown.
john e:
What are you babbling on about? There were no jibes from me.
And it was the notion about Young going to Spurs and MON leaving because of that which is what I took issue with so get your facts straight.
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Maybe Mrs J would take Billy to bed tonight.
The problem has escalated because my other half (can't make her Mrs J, she's from Lancashire, think our relationship illegal) is away, and our daughter on a sleepover and whilst i've been sat upright at the computer Bill has learned how to play FIFA 10 on the Wii online, i'm really going to struggle now to get him to bed.
I really hope John gets you some cracking birthday presents and although i'm not implying he's the sort of bloke to buy an ironing board and some slippers, should there be something that aids back problems in one of the parcels then you know where to send it.
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Fair enough then Pauline. Just a communication breakdown.
No problem Mazrim.
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The problem has escalated because my other half (can't make her Mrs J, she's from Lancashire, think our relationship illegal) is away, and our daughter on a sleepover and whilst i've been sat upright at the computer Bill has learned how to play FIFA 10 on the Wii online, i'm really going to struggle now to get him to bed.
I really hope John gets you some cracking birthday presents and although i'm not implying he's the sort of bloke to buy an ironing board and some slippers, should there be something that aids back problems in one of the parcels then you know where to send it.
I think I'd let little Billy stay up all night playing with the Wii - he'll be quite happy and it saves your struggling with your back.
Jon wouldn't DARE buy me an ironing board for my birthday, he really wouldn't.
What you need here Chris is somebody who can do reiki.
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Somebody who can play Scrabble will do me tonight.
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Somebody who can play Scrabble will do me tonight.
Don't talk to me about scrabble. I'm hooked on the wretched app on my iphone.
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Just a quick point. The "you heard it here first" was regarding Young going to Spurs,
No it wasn't, it was regarding O'Neill going.
Right, so when I said "that's not going to hapen" regarding Young leaving to go to spurs and he said "you heard it here first", it wasnt in reply to me?
No, it wasn't in reply to you on that point. As can be seen by the timing of the post, it coincides with when all the initial rumours about O'Neill resigning were being confirmed.
My point about Ashley Young was simply to say that if he went to Spurs, it would be an indication that they pay higher wages than us.
Tonight's Evening Standard states that they pay a maximum of £65000 per week and also that 'Spurs are also in the hunt for Ashley Young although it is understood his possible sale was not one of the main reasons for Martin O'Neill resigning...'
My post at the top of this thread did not say all that it could have.
Yes, I wanted O'Neill out but genuinely thought that he would be sacked after having confirmation that he hadn't spoken to Lerner for four months. I did not mention that evidence but just put my own personal opinion in; having been satisfied that he was on the way out.
There was certainly a clash of personalities and O'Neill is clearly not afraid of speaking his mind. Maybe Lerner knew that he would throw the towel in.
It is history now but the next manager will not get any honeymoon period, apart from Kevin MacDonald up to an extent. I suspect Mr.Lerner will have to step above the parapet if things don't shape up. The secrecy may have been seen by some as a sign of a happy house. Far from it.
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Psssst DC5, hope you didn't buy an ironing board or cover.
Now, about my back...
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i get the cover for the ironing board lol got it right again dc5
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You heard it here first!
Smart Arse!!
Moscow seems a long time ago but that was definitely the beginning of the end and now, after yesterdays events, I think we can conclude that it was MON who made the decision to forego the Europa Cup,
Tony
Despite the team selection that day, I think you will agree what a great trip it was.
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Psssst DC5, hope you didn't buy an ironing board or cover.
Now, about my back...
That bad back obviously suits you Chris. You have been on fine form today.
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Thanks Pauline, i'm back to my norma,l miserable, cynical and some would say Yorkshire self today.
Another restless night with a bad back, not sure i've mentioned i've got a bad back at the moment.
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You heard it here first!
Smart Arse!!
Moscow seems a long time ago but that was definitely the beginning of the end and now, after yesterdays events, I think we can conclude that it was MON who made the decision to forego the Europa Cup,
Tony
Despite the team selection that day, I think you will agree what a great trip it was.
Absolutely, one of the best.
My only surprise with MON is that it was 12 months later than the first indication that all was not well.
Has your ITK mentioned any Managerial preferences?
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Has your ITK mentioned any Managerial preferences?
Afraid not. I just hope that Kevin MacDonald gets a fair crack of the whip. In the circumstances, with players supposedly leaving and us having to rely on the depth of the squad, there could not be a better candidate.
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Yes, K Mac (his hip-hop name no doubt) represents continuity for a lot of players (especially the youngsters who will feel more at ease with a familiar face at the helm). Plus he's a proper coach and I didn't get that impression from Robertson and Walford.
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Has your ITK mentioned any Managerial preferences?
Afraid not. I just hope that Kevin MacDonald gets a fair crack of the whip. In the circumstances, with players supposedly leaving and us having to rely on the depth of the squad, there could not be a better candidate.
Kevin Mac's Claret and Blue Army has a nice ring to it. I'd be happy enough to go with that for a wee while at least.
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K Mac would be my second choice after Pellegrini.
If the financial and operational situation has changed so that the role to be filled is coach rather than a traditional football manager, then K Mac is perhaps the best choice of all.
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I'm going to listen to him closely, as soon as he's out of that meeting i'm going to ask him how to ease my bad back.
>chuckle<
Oi Mrs Clark Five, it's the Doc I want to see not the receptionist!
I sneezed yesterday and knackered my back, are you able to prescribe painkillers? If not, i'll wait until the (frankly, long) meeting is finished if you can fix me up an appointment?
Somebody call for a Doctor? ......mmmmm....what seems to be the trouble ?
Bad back ?? there is allsorts of new fangled ways to "cure" a bad back but I find that leeches the best ! apply one to each ear and genitals.
please please don't thank me.
UTV
The Doc
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^^^^
Nice one, Doc.
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The best thing for a bad back is a series of jarring impacts, overly ambitious physical endeavour and long periods of awkward posture.
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The best thing for a bad back is a series of jarring impacts, overly ambitious physical endeavour and long periods of awkward posture.
This could work but I am sure that the application of leeches is the way forward.
Chris, to speed up the healing process I find that applying more leeches to be of help.
UTV
The Doc
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Chris, to speed up the healing process I find that applying more leeches to be of help.
UTV
The Doc
Thanks Doc, is it really necessary to start on the testicles?
I do trust you but the last 'Dr' I consulted warned me off bitches and hoes but little else. Dr Dre is not a real Doctor I suspect.
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The best thing for a bad back is a series of jarring impacts, overly ambitious physical endeavour and long periods of awkward posture.
This could work but I am sure that the application of leeches is the way forward.
Chris, to speed up the healing process I find that applying more leeches to be of help.
UTV
The Doc
Following on from Chris, Doc, can I ask are you a real doctor? You know like the ones who write perscriptions, charge you to sign your passports and play 4 rounds of golf a week, or are you just one of them geezers who knows loads and loads about rocks and shit.
Feel free to tell me to fuck off like.
UTV, Lee.
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Following on from Chris, Doc, can I ask are you a real doctor? You know like the ones who write perscriptions, charge you to sign your passports and play 4 rounds of golf a week, or are you just one of them geezers who knows loads and loads about rocks and shit.
Feel free to tell me to fuck off like.
UTV, Lee.
Word of advice Lee, don't ever ask Dr Dre if he's a real Doctor, made that mistake once and caused myself a whole load of bother. If he'd just told me to fuck off that would have been fine, still not convinced he's qualified to call himself a Dr unlike Dr Alban
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Thanks for the heads up Chris, but if he busts that shit with me, I'll pop a cap in his fat ass.
I didn't realise Dr All-Bran was a real doctor.
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Dr Dre's dead. He's locked in my basement.
*nods*
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Thanks for the heads up Chris, but if he busts that shit with me, I'll pop a cap in his fat ass.
Word. Youknowwhatimsaying.
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Thanks for the heads up Chris, but if he busts that shit with me, I'll pop a cap in his fat ass.
Thats fat/phat and dope........I reckon........
UTV
The Doc
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Following on from Chris, Doc, can I ask are you a real doctor? You know like the ones who write perscriptions, charge you to sign your passports and play 4 rounds of golf a week, or are you just one of them geezers who knows loads and loads about rocks and shit.
Feel free to tell me to fuck off like.
UTV, Lee.
In answer to your question Lee, I am a witch-doctor.
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Following on from Chris, Doc, can I ask are you a real doctor? You know like the ones who write perscriptions, charge you to sign your passports and play 4 rounds of golf a week, or are you just one of them geezers who knows loads and loads about rocks and shit.
Feel free to tell me to fuck off like.
UTV, Lee.
In answer to your question Lee, I am a witch-doctor.
Doc, that's what I'm trying to ascertain. Witch type of doctor are you?
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Following on from Chris, Doc, can I ask are you a real doctor? You know like the ones who write perscriptions, charge you to sign your passports and play 4 rounds of golf a week, or are you just one of them geezers who knows loads and loads about rocks and shit.
Feel free to tell me to fuck off like.
UTV, Lee.
Word of advice Lee, don't ever ask Dr Dre if he's a real Doctor, made that mistake once and caused myself a whole load of bother. If he'd just told me to fuck off that would have been fine, still not convinced he's qualified to call himself a Dr unlike Dr Alban
Dr Alimantado was the man you wanted, he was born for the purpose of fixing your back.
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Following on from Chris, Doc, can I ask are you a real doctor? You know like the ones who write perscriptions, charge you to sign your passports and play 4 rounds of golf a week, or are you just one of them geezers who knows loads and loads about rocks and shit.
Feel free to tell me to fuck off like.
UTV, Lee.
Word of advice Lee, don't ever ask Dr Dre if he's a real Doctor, made that mistake once and caused myself a whole load of bother. If he'd just told me to fuck off that would have been fine, still not convinced he's qualified to call himself a Dr unlike Dr Alban
Dr Alimantado was the man you wanted, he was born for the purpose of fixing your back.
Judging by your depressed state Chris, I reckon you need a visit from The Beatles Dr.Robert.
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Following on from Chris, Doc, can I ask are you a real doctor? You know like the ones who write perscriptions, charge you to sign your passports and play 4 rounds of golf a week, or are you just one of them geezers who knows loads and loads about rocks and shit.
Feel free to tell me to fuck off like.
UTV, Lee.
In answer to your question Lee, I am a witch-doctor.
Doc, that's what I'm trying to ascertain. Witch type of doctor are you?
Lee I am actually not any sort of qualified Doctor, and my "handle" comes from my first ever cheque book that was sent to me as my name printed on it was Dr Butler (my middle initial is R) and when the lads I played football heard about it the name has since then stuck.
UTV
The Doc
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Lee I am actually not any sort of qualified Doctor, and my "handle" comes from my first ever cheque book that was sent to me as my name printed on it was Dr Butler (my middle initial is R) and when the lads I played football heard about it the name has since then stuck.
Yet another internet illusion shattered.
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Lee I am actually not any sort of qualified Doctor, and my "handle" comes from my first ever cheque book that was sent to me as my name printed on it was Dr Butler (my middle initial is R) and when the lads I played football heard about it the name has since then stuck.
Yet another internet illusion shattered.
sorry Lizz, :)
I suppose it does not count that I actually do work in the Medical profession ?
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Dr Dre's dead. He's locked in my basement.
*nods*
Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got somethin to say
But nothin comes out when they move their lips;
Just a bunch of gibberish
And motherfuckers act like they forgot about dre
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Dr Dre's dead. He's locked in my basement.
*nods*
Is anyone else wondering why you'd have to lock him in if he's already dead?
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sorry Lizz, :)
I suppose it does not count that I actually do work in the Medical profession ?
I bet that's what you tell all the girls.
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sorry Lizz, :)
I suppose it does not count that I actually do work in the Medical profession ?
I bet that's what you tell all the girls.
fuck it I've been rumbled ;-)
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Lee I am actually not any sort of qualified Doctor, and my "handle" comes from my first ever cheque book that was sent to me as my name printed on it was Dr Butler (my middle initial is R) and when the lads I played football heard about it the name has since then stuck.
Yet another internet illusion shattered.
sorry Lizz, :)
I suppose it does not count that I actually do work in the Medical profession ?
I saw that you we're based in Cambridge and just assumed you were just some cool academic Villa head.
I don't think any less of you though :)
Up the Villa