Clubs in trouble

[Coopers Injury]

So if RL ever pulls the plug we're up shit creek ?

or indeed whats to stop him one day taking his dough back and mortgaging the club to the hilt ? see. ManUre

[peter w]

Undoubtedly the money at the bottom league has always been a problem. there has been many an occasion where part-time, regionalistaion etc has been mooted again and again to curtail the problem of a lack of funds. However, its the clubs themselves that were not in favour of it.

If clubs were to go part-time then that's up to them but professional clubs run on a shoe-string anyway at the bottom levels anddo not have the staffing levels that would cripple them.

Its not a recent development for them to be 100% professional but what is is the large amount of professional clubs in the Conference. That is creating more pressure on the struggling clubs as the safety net of relegation is not there from the 4th tier into the top non-league division if they are struggling with finances for no fault of their own.

[pdiddybaby]

So if RL ever pulls the plug we're up shit creek ?

No because the interest payments we own are 'only' £4m a year an he could sell us including debts and still make a profit

or indeed whats to stop him one day taking his dough back and mortgaging the club to the hilt ? see. ManUre

nothing it is his club to do with what he likes

[Dave Cooper please]

It doesn't to you, no. But it does to their supporters. The same way that I'm sure thousands of Villa supporters wouldn't like to see the club play in the Midland Comb because the club wouldn't be Villa anymore.

That's the point whatever phoenix rises from the Ashes it won't be the same club and their is no guarantee your club will ever rise above local level again.

The pride in the club goes, as does the name, the footballing tradition, and the ghosts of past glories. All gone. Because the greedy money men in the top flight decided to stop redistributing a little bit of wealth.

just because the big clubs decide to accrue huge amounts of debt and continue to trade is no reason why we shouldn't help the smaller clubs are finding themselves increasingly squeezed.

The English league is unique in having 4 good professional leagues and a good non-league scene compared to the rest of the world.

Yes, some go by the wayside because they have been stupid with their own finances - but in the most its not the fans fault.

But we should do everything and anything that we possibly can to preserve that and not just be happy to see an increase in local Sunday league teams and having only 2 professional leagues and a myriad of AFCs playing on Hackney marshes against premiership reserve teams in the new division 3 because if we're not careful that's where we're going.

This is what I wanted to say, but much better put.

[Dave Cooper please]

No I'm nopt saying that, quite clearly.

And are you saying that your enjoyment has wained because of Sky, Abramovich, masn City, Arabs, inflated player salaries?

No - I'm saying it doesn't really make that much difference, which supports my argument that it doesn't make that much difference if Portmouth play in the premier league or the Sourtherm Prem (or whatever it's called) or Kings Lynn go back to playing Sunday parks football.

Kings Lynn have never played Sunday League football, why would their very loyal and dedicated fanbase want to watch their team there? Besides, they don't exist any more, 130 years of history wiped out. Yes some of their fans are now trying to set up a phoenix side and hope to get into the Ridgeons Eastern League, but it's not the same team, that team, older than the majority of Premier League teams, has gone forever. Over the cost of Sidwell's weekly wage.

[Risso]

 Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.

Owing money to the taxman is just like any other bill, if you don't pay it, you get shut down, just like any other business which doesn't pay what it owes.  If the directors spent the money they should have been paying in PAYE and NI, then tough as it is on the Linnets' fans, they deserved to be wound up.  The fact that it's miniscule by Premier League standards is neither here nor there.

 There but for the grace of God and all that.
 If Randy walked tomorrow, demanded his £80m and no buyer was found before the next tax bill was due, I assume you'd be saying the same? That Villa deserved to be wound up because the owner happened to turn out to be a shyster?
 It wouldn't happen to Villa of course for many reasons, but why are fans of "big clubs" more worthy than fans of a club only five years younger than ourselves just because they can always find someone else to bail them out?

Like it or not, football is a business.  We're not spending money that's not ours to spend, Kings Lynn were.  I think they were pretty well supported for a team at their level, yet they spent the money owed to HMRC, presumably on wages etc.  How is it fair on the other teams in a division if a club can spend what it likes, not pay its dues then get bailed out?

[Risso]

Yes some of their fans are now trying to set up a phoenix side and hope to get into the Ridgeons Eastern League, but it's not the same team, that team, older than the majority of Premier League teams, has gone forever. Over the cost of Sidwell's weekly wage.

The "Sidwell wages" thing is a total red herring.  For what my multi-millionaire neighbour spends on servicing his cars a year I could buy me and the missus a brand new car each, replacing the bangers we run around in, but that's irrelevant.  He's rich and I'm not.  Just about every team outside the Premier League has financial worries, where do you draw the line?  It shouldn't be hard to run a team like Kings Lynnn on an even footing, I don't see why small clubs should be given carte blanche to be rub badly, knowing there's a back up just in case.

[Villa'Zawg]

Sorry, I haven't read all the thread so apologies if I'm repeating other posts or if I'm way off target.

The Premier League already has a solidarity/hardship payment scheme in place with the football league whereby they provide up to £30m per season

“£5.4m per season for Football League Youth Development;
£4m per season for Football League clubs’ community investment;
£11.2m per season solidarity payment to split amongst clubs in The Championship,
League 1 and League 2 in line with The Football League’s regulations on financial
distributions;
An extra £11.2m or £22.4m in seasons where there is either one or two ‘spare’
parachute payments”

If the Premier League are to help Football League clubs with issues of financial hardship and insolvency, it is only right that the Football League clubs agree to a level of financial transparency and good governance rules. There have been extensive efforts over the last few years to persuade the football league clubs to adopt mandatory cost controls e.g. spending only a certain %age of turnover on player’s wages. These were adopted across the board in league 2 and voluntarily by some clubs in league 1.

One of the major barriers to putting these type of cost controls in place across the whole of the football league is ironically, the parachute payments clubs get when relegated from the Premier League. These payments in effect distort the market.

If we’re serious about “sharing the wealth” to ensure survival of the traditional football clubs, there are two potentially viable ways of doing it;

1)  Join the television  properties of the football league with those of the Premier League for an agreed share of the total proceeds.

This would at least ensure there is no further growth in financial disparity between the two leagues. A subsequent “bundling” of those rights in a number of media packages (including the cup competitions) would alleviate any concerns of the competition regulators and could also provide a reasonable level of free-to-air Premier League Football.

2) Re-open the domestic transfer market.

The introduction of transfer windows by FIFA caused a collapse in the domestic transfer market and removed one of the most important traditional methods of wealth redistribution within the game. If the domestic transfer market remained open throughout the year, we would see an increase in wealth distribution and clubs would once again have a method of relief should they encounter financial difficulties.

The only way to achieve these things is for the Premier League, The Football League and the government to reach a joint policy approach.

[pdiddybaby]

If the Premier League are to help Football League clubs with issues of financial hardship and insolvency, it is only right that the Football League clubs agree to a level of financial transparency and good governance rules.

maybe the PL should adopt these rules first and show the way, don't hold your breath

[peter w]

Yes some of their fans are now trying to set up a phoenix side and hope to get into the Ridgeons Eastern League, but it's not the same team, that team, older than the majority of Premier League teams, has gone forever. Over the cost of Sidwell's weekly wage.

The "Sidwell wages" thing is a total red herring.  For what my multi-millionaire neighbour spends on servicing his cars a year I could buy me and the missus a brand new car each, replacing the bangers we run around in, but that's irrelevant.  He's rich and I'm not.  Just about every team outside the Premier League has financial worries, where do you draw the line?  It shouldn't be hard to run a team like Kings Lynnn on an even footing, I don't see why small clubs should be given carte blanche to be rub badly, knowing there's a back up just in case.

If the club is being run badly then they wouldn't fulfill the criteria as set out when i mooted the idea of a hardship fund.

[Risso]

So taking the Kings Lynn example peter, would you have given them the money to pay off HMRC?

[peter w]

I haven't seen their books so I don't know exactly why and how they got into financial trouble. That would be for the committee of the hardship fund to decide.

[pdiddybaby]

if clubs do badly, get relegated, lose crowds and revenue, get into trouble, should they be helped then, because that is the natural impact of relegation.

[peter w]

No, that's part of football. They have to run their ship accordingly.

[pdiddybaby]

No, that's part of football. They have to run their ship accordingly.

I wonder how many clubs though are in trouble because of relegation

look at the number of ex PL sides who got themselves into mess.