Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: pdiddybaby on January 05, 2010, 12:46:41 PM
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Two clubs are now being chased by the HMRC for winding up petitions and both show how careful you have to be with sugar daddies promising the world.
Portsmouth, we all know they were shafted when Gadaymek withdrew his money and the latest is all their TV money has been kept and distrubuted to clubs who their owed money to. Without this TV money to pay the wages you have to ask how long it will be before they have to go into administration, few decent players, if any, to sell.
Notts County, took over by a very shady group, some weird things happened there and the group sold out just for £1 to a management buyout and now can not pay the HMRC. Times there look very desperate for them and the fact the supporters trust sold their shares to Murto makes the situation worse.
And there must be others, West Ham for example need to be brought out but as far as I understand no one has yet to bid for them. Man U have had to try and refinance and situation at Liverpool not stable at all.
Just think to us with an owner very unlikely to do that to us, phewww.
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Jam today?
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Stockport are even deeper in the shite
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Stockport are up what's it without a what's it.
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Just goes to show what a joke the "fit and proper person" rules are.
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Just goes to show what a joke the "fit and proper person" rules are.
the rules though have nothing to do with how much money you have or whether the promises you make can be held up.
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Southend are in the shite aswell, with HMRC issuing a winding up order before christmas but giving a stay of execution.
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Stockport are up what's it without a what's it.
Never mind a paddle, they haven't even got a canoe
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Scrub that, the Chairman of Southend 'found' the 2million just in the nick of time......
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Never mind Southend et al, let us spare a thought for the Glazers, currently grovelling round the money markets trying to ease Man Utd's incredible debt burden.
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Bless, maybe we should have a whip round for them.
Here have the steam from my piss.
Oh no, I wouldn't give them that either
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The biggest could be yet to come if Liverpool don't make the CL. The loss of income could be catastrphic, mainly in terms of debt servicing!
However, they could sell a player or two (wonder who?) and/or a rich owner would come in given their profile. Not an option the Stockports of this world have, unfortunately!
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I am good friends with a Portsmouth season ticket holder who, after a bit of digging around has come up with what seems a ridiculously elaborate conspiracy theory for the goings on at Portsmouth. Trouble is... there's nothing particularly unbelievable about any of it.
Here's his post about it on another forum. Goes without saying that this is all hypothetical and a fictional account of what might have left Portsmouth in such a state, but I know on this site people are a bit worried about getting into trouble for stuff so mods, feel free to edit or delete if you so wish.
It's an interesting read anyway:
The theory is that Sasha Gaydamak is still indirectly in charge of the club (using it for money laundering) and is basically withdrawing the vast majority of income from player sales, TV revenue, gate receipts etc into his own accounts, whilst using loans to pay for day-to-day expenses, thus building up the debt. This will go on until the club inevitably enters administration and in most likelihood folds completely.
A few things to consider –
- Despite all the player sales over the past year or so (Diarra, Muntari, Johnson, Defoe, Crouch, Distin, Kranjcar, Mendes) bringing in around £80m in income, plus the Sky money, ticket sales and other revenues, which must total around £150m, there is still no sign that the debt situation has changed – we’re still struggling to pay basic expenses such as the player salaries, this despite now having one of the lowest wage bills in the league. Were our debts really that big to begin with? Unlikely.
- Pretty much every business Sasha Gaydamak has ever owned has gone into liquidation.
- Ali Al-Faraj is still a complete unknown. He was a supposed “billionaire”, yet no-one had ever heard of him, even in his homeland of Saudi Arabia. He is yet to turn up to any games (not even Man Utd at home, despite word going around that he would attend) which was originally put down to permit issues, yet his “brother” has attended some games. No-one is quite sure who he is or where he got his money from, and all that has been released of him is this one photo:
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00905/Ali_Al_Faraj_280x39_905191a.jpg)
Is this man in the photo Ali Al-Faraj, or just some random Arab being used as a smokescreen for Gaydamak’s cash cow scheme? Is Ali Al-Faraj even a real person, or is he completely made-up? And if he isn’t a real person, how the fuck did he pass the FA’s Fit and Proper Person Test?! Keep in mind that Al-Faraj reportedly didn’t spend a penny on buying the club; all he did was take over the clubs debts. In theory I could have done that – all I’d need to do is fool the FA into thinking that I had the financial clout required to run a football club. And as we all know, the FA are useless bunch of tossers anyway.
- Two men called Balram Chainrai and Levi Kushnir loaned us £15m in September to help with costs. These two men co-founded a company called Ameris Holdings, who sold 65% of shares to Sasha Gaydamak’s father Arcadi (who has an arrest warrant out for him in France for arms dealing during the Angolan civil war. He’s been sentenced to six years but is now hiding back in Russia as they have no extradition treaty with France) Anyway, Arcadi used to be owner of Beitar Jerusalem (until July this year) but ran into some problems with Israeli law and had his account frozen. His business partners Chainrai and Kushnir sued Arcadi for failing to buy the rest of the shares of their company Ameris Holdings as was apparently agreed, and were awarded £16m from Arcadi’s frozen accounts. They then lend Pompey £15m for apparently no reason at all…. seems like a good way of transferring cash from one frozen bank account to another active one, no?
- Another face currently hanging around the club is someone called Danny Azougy, who has been brought in as a financial advisor. He is an Israeli lawyer/accountant and multi-time convicted fraudster you used to work for, yep, Arcadi Gaydamak.
“Disgraced lawyer Daniel Azougy is controlling the club’s finances, despite a string of convictions for fraud dating back eight years. He was found guilty of FOUR counts of embezzling client funds in Israel in 2002. He was sentenced to five months in prison – but did not spend any time behind bars as he was allowed to do his time in community service instead. Azougy was also banned from practising law by the Israeli Bar Association for FOURTEEN YEARS. Then in March this year, Fratton Park’s new finance man was sentenced to two months’ community service and a year’s probation – and fined £25,000 – for a securities fraud resulting from a dodgy share transfer back in 1999.Azougy was found to have lied to the Israeli Stock Exchange bosses over the deal. He got off with a light sentence because the offence happened 10 years earlier.”
Azougy specialises in liquidation and was appointed by Arcadi to deal with the asset stripping of Beitar Jerusalem towards the end of his reign. And here he is again, no doubt appointed by the same person to do a similar job.
- Two other names, Roni Mana and Yoram Yosepov, have been linked as potential investors to the club. They denied it, but admitted on record that they are acting as “business advisors” to Ali Al-Faraj and claimed they persuaded him to appoint Avram Grant as manager. Type the name ‘Roni Mana’ into Google along with Gaydamak and you’ll see, unsurprisingly, they have quite a history of dealings too. The first result says Mana “has been the middleman in all of Gaydamak's recent business transactions”. It’s clear that the people being deployed by the club are Gaydamak’s people, not Al-Faraj’s, if he even exists.
- Where does Al-Fahim fit into this? Well, my theory is that he intended to buy the club back in May and had a serious backer lined up (probably Thaksin Shinawatra as reported) but that went down the pan. Once it became clear Al Fahim didn’t have anywhere near the required financial means on his own, and after he failed to attract other investors to pay off the remainder of Sasha’s demands, Sasha went with Plan B – Al-Faraj the mirage – and decided to rape the club for everything he could. He clearly doesn’t give a shit whether the club survives or goes bust, and why should he? Al-Fahim is left sat there as a non-executive chairman, owning 10% of a worthless company, with no money and no decision making authority like the useless fat prick that he is.
So there you have it. Clearly there’s a lot of dodgy stuff going on. I’m 100% sure the Gaydamak’s are still in charge, and as they have no invested interest in keeping the club afloat, I really can’t see a happy ending to it all. No investors are going to want to buy the club – not when you consider the current league placing, shocking infrastructure and (somehow still) massive level of debt. Now the winding up order has been set, the end seems to be nigh. The club is getting fucked up the arse and I honestly reckon we’ll be out of business in the coming months. Possibly administration as early as next month. Wonder if the players will get paid tomorrow?[/i]
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Scrub that, the Chairman of Southend 'found' the 2million just in the nick of time......
That reminds me, I must look down the back of the sofa when I get home.
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Well 1_Pablo_Angel not surprised at all by that post, it is shocking that Gaydamek was even allowed to take over given his father failed the fit and proper persons test yet it was rumoured his father was behind it all.
Can the fans call in the police over this ?
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The biggest could be yet to come if Liverpool don't make the CL. The loss of income could be catastrphic, mainly in terms of debt servicing!
I was hoping for this, then I read the other day that financing is almost in place for Stanley Park and they're about to begin building it! How've they managed that then? Or are they just lying to the council in order to be included in the world cup bid?
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Well 1_Pablo_Angel not surprised at all by that post, it is shocking that Gaydamek was even allowed to take over given his father failed the fit and proper persons test yet it was rumoured his father was behind it all.
Can the fans call in the police over this ?
I don't see why not. Prosecuting anyone would surely be a collossal task though, across foreign countries and bank accounts and presumably these guys are fairly good at covering their tracks.
The Ameris holdings loan part of what I posted seems incredible on the face of it. Surely someone should investigate?
Also, Gaydamak (who is still listed as a creditor!!) said the other day, with regard to 'wanting his money', that he had no idea who was in charge of the club now. Why doesn't he ask that long list of his known associates who have just been recruited? Surely they must know who's employing them?
The whole business seems absolutely farcical and when the only action taken even at this very late stage, is for the Premier League to occasionally say they are closely monitoring the situation is the worst kind of comedy.
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Well 1_Pablo_Angel not surprised at all by that post, it is shocking that Gaydamek was even allowed to take over given his father failed the fit and proper persons test yet it was rumoured his father was behind it all.
Can the fans call in the police over this ?
I don't see why not. Prosecuting anyone would surely be a collossal task though, across foreign countries and bank accounts and presumably these guys are fairly good at covering their tracks.
The Ameris holdings loan part of what I posted seems incredible on the face of it. Surely someone should investigate?
Also, Gaydamak (who is still listed as a creditor!!) said the other day, with regard to 'wanting his money', that he had no idea who was in charge of the club now. Why doesn't he ask that long list of his known associates who have just been recruited? Surely they must know who's employing them?
The whole business seems absolutely farcical and when the only action taken even at this very late stage, is for the Premier League to occasionally say they are closely monitoring the situation is the worst kind of comedy.
at least an inquiry by the police would freeze the bank accounts somewhat and stop the rape of this club
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The biggest could be yet to come if Liverpool don't make the CL. The loss of income could be catastrphic, mainly in terms of debt servicing!
I was hoping for this, then I read the other day that financing is almost in place for Stanley Park and they're about to begin building it! How've they managed that then? Or are they just lying to the council in order to be included in the world cup bid?
If they're committed to a new stadium and all the expenditure that entails, then it could be an even worse situation if they don't finish 4th!!
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
I suppose a few thought that Newcastle might be the next 'big' team to drop down the leagues but they seem to have steadied the ship.
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
I think Portsmouth is different to the Leeds situation, but could have a similar result!
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
actually there is not enough money to satisfy the wage demands, thats the problem. A club like Portsmouth relied on the owner basically paying the wages, once he never they were stuffed as wages have to be paid at the agreed rate.
that is why at Villa we are OK, the wage bill is not that bad, when compared to others but it must be controlled vis a vis the income.
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
I suppose a few thought that Newcastle might be the next 'big' team to drop down the leagues but they seem to have steadied the ship.
Actually, Ashley seems to have done a reasonably decent job to sort out the mess, once he stopped pandering to the fans.
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I read somewhere that Portsmouth are paying John Utaka 80,000 a week.
If that's the case then you've got to wonder what the fuck Peter Storrie was doing when these contracts were agreed.
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
I suppose a few thought that Newcastle might be the next 'big' team to drop down the leagues but they seem to have steadied the ship.
Actually, Ashley seems to have done a reasonably decent job to sort out the mess, once he stopped pandering to the fans.
Ashley didn't even do due dilligence when he bought Newcastle. He then discovered debts stashed away all over the place.
You have to wonder what he was on when he bought the club like that.
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I read somewhere that Portsmouth are paying John Utaka 80,000 a week.
If that's the case then you've got to wonder what the fuck Peter Storrie was doing when these contracts were agreed.
Lining his pockets in the process ...alledgedly
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I read somewhere that Portsmouth are paying John Utaka 80,000 a week.
If that's the case then you've got to wonder what the fuck Peter Storrie was doing when these contracts were agreed.
Being creative, allegedly.
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Crystal Palace have not paid their players for December. I heard they are relying on Moses leaving to help them. Jesus what next?
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
I suppose a few thought that Newcastle might be the next 'big' team to drop down the leagues but they seem to have steadied the ship.
Actually, Ashley seems to have done a reasonably decent job to sort out the mess, once he stopped pandering to the fans.
actually Ashley had to inject another £40m a few weeks ago to make sure they could keep the team as it was.
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
I suppose a few thought that Newcastle might be the next 'big' team to drop down the leagues but they seem to have steadied the ship.
Actually, Ashley seems to have done a reasonably decent job to sort out the mess, once he stopped pandering to the fans.
actually Ashley had to inject another £40m a few weeks ago to make sure they could keep the team as it was.
I suppose thats the key, he could get some money back buy selling the assets (players) but they then might drop out of the promotion hunt and not get any promotion money, that way he invests more money and the club can be sold for closer to what he paid for it. The thing is at some point you have to draw the line.
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Crystal Palace have not paid their players for December. I heard they are relying on Moses leaving to help them. Jesus what next?
There's a biblical joke in there somewhere.
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Crystal Palace have not paid their players for December. I heard they are relying on Moses leaving to help them. Jesus what next?
There's a biblical joke in there somewhere.
Its a pity Ron Noah(des) isn't still the chairman, they could get in the ark and ride out the shit storm thats heading there way.....sorry it's the best i can do.
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Once again, far far too much money in the game. How long before another club 'does a Leeds?' In fact, I'm amazed that no-one has done it since (I'm not sure that Charlton and Leicester really count).
actually there is not enough money to satisfy the wage demands, thats the problem. A club like Portsmouth relied on the owner basically paying the wages, once he never they were stuffed as wages have to be paid at the agreed rate.
that is why at Villa we are OK, the wage bill is not that bad, when compared to others but it must be controlled vis a vis the income.
That's kind of the point though isn't it - because there is so much money in the game through TV, Champions League etc smaller clubs like Portsmouth are forced to pay average players high wages in order to compete - wages that are so high that they cannot afford to pay them indefinately. As the turnover of clubs goes up and up, so does the amount paid to players, so that in real terms the clubs are no richer (the players are the best off).
It is of course to surprise to me to see a club that was recently managed by 'onest 'Arry to run into dire financial trouble. I'm keeping my fingers firmly crossed that he manages to do the same to Spurs.
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I wonder if when signing a player, does the club say:-
"OK, £10m plus £40k a week over a 4 year contract, means an outlay of £18.32m. Lets budget for a selling the player after 3 years and getting £5m back, so a net spend of £11.24m, or £3.75m a year. Will our income through TV rights, gate receipts and prize money increase by that amount and therefore make it a commercially viable deal?"
I very much doubt they do!!
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Crystal Palace have not paid their players for December. I heard they are relying on Moses leaving to help them. Jesus what next?
There's a biblical joke in there somewhere.
A parting of the waves possibly?
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Just seen this thread! After I asked a question of the General. Well, I'm going home now so will read the posts when i get in.
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can a football club with a reasonable fanbase actually go out of existance,
i mean they might drop a few divisions or go bankrupt, but they always start up again somehow.
take Leeds, there still going, as are Wimbledon in some form or other, as are Acrington Stanley.
if say Liverpool, got into massive fianancial trouble and went pop,
they wouldnt go away forever, there fans would still be there, they would just start up again from a lower position.
i dont see any way that a football club can cease to exist, as long as it has supporters
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can a football club with a reasonable fanbase actually go out of existance,
i mean they might drop a few divisions or go bankrupt, but they always start up again somehow.
take Leeds, there still going, as are Wimbledon in some form or other, as are Acrington Stanley.
if say Liverpool, got into massive fianancial trouble and went pop,
they wouldnt go away forever, there fans would still be there, they would just start up again from a lower position.
i dont see any way that a football club can cease to exist, as long as it has supporters
Football clubs are businesses and PLCs now. That's the problem! So the name (surely trademarked?) and their league entitlement are forfeit if they go to the wall and the fams would have to start again from scratch.
At least I think so anyway!
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Peter you said in the General's thread
Randy is clealry an altruistic type chap. Would he, and the club, not consider an idea where all 20 Prem clubs put £500,000 of their TV revenue into a kit to help the needier clubs?
why should some clubs who are very well run bail out any club like Pompey, who went well above their means to try and get success. The clubs in trouble are in trouble because generally they have been run very poor
West Ham, Pompey, Notts County, etc.
the only clubs I would have sympathy for are those where the chairman was lying to everyone and in effect being corrupt. Fomr Pompey's situation we all knew what they were doing is financial suicide, the same at Man City, chelsea etc.
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Peter you said in the General's thread
Randy is clealry an altruistic type chap. Would he, and the club, not consider an idea where all 20 Prem clubs put £500,000 of their TV revenue into a kit to help the needier clubs?
why should some clubs who are very well run bail out any club like Pompey, who went well above their means to try and get success. The clubs in trouble are in trouble because generally they have been run very poor
West Ham, Pompey, Notts County, etc.
the only clubs I would have sympathy for are those where the chairman was lying to everyone and in effect being corrupt. Fomr Pompey's situation we all knew what they were doing is financial suicide, the same at Man City, chelsea etc.
When I read it I was more thinking of the smaller clubs that just struggle to exist, like Stockport etc. Should such a fund be created, I'd imagine there would be an application procedure and a trustee to make sure the funds would only go to a) those that need it and b) those that wouldn;t take it and then fuck up again. Also a rule where you can only apply once in every 10 years to stop it being abused by a handful of clubs to live off of!
Maybe it shouldn't be just a PL thing, but a scheme where every club contributes say 2.5% of their turnover?
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I wonder if when signing a player, does the club say:-
"OK, £10m plus £40k a week over a 4 year contract, means an outlay of £18.32m. Lets budget for a selling the player after 3 years and getting £5m back, so a net spend of £11.24m, or £3.75m a year. Will our income through TV rights, gate receipts and prize money increase by that amount and therefore make it a commercially viable deal?"
I very much doubt they do!!
that looks exactly like Dougonomics to me.
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Wouldn't it just be quicker and easier to re-incorporate the Premier League back into the Football League and distribute the incomes more fairly again?
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Crystal Palace have not paid their players for December. I heard they are relying on Moses leaving to help them. Jesus what next?
There's a biblical joke in there somewhere.
Its a pity Ron Noah(des) isn't still the chairman, they could get in the ark and ride out the shit storm thats heading there way.....sorry it's the best i can do.
may be when they come to rest on the mountain they can ask Mohamed (Sissoko) for a way out of their troubles!
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Crystal Palace have not paid their players for December. I heard they are relying on Moses leaving to help them. Jesus what next?
There's a biblical joke in there somewhere.
I feel bad for that lot. Not enough Romans to save them all.
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Isaiah 40:31: But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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I am pretty sure that one day in the near future, our game (the EPL that is) will be exposed as greedy & corrupt, Platini & co will then have field day. Unless the FA/Premier league grow some balls & sort it out. I doubt this will happen though as they're probably just as bent as most of the clubs.
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I am pretty sure that one day in the near future, our game (the EPL that is) will be exposed as greedy & corrupt, Platini & co will then have field day. Unless the FA/Premier league grow some balls & sort it out. I doubt this will happen though as they're probably just as bent as most of the clubs.
That's the thing about Platini, he's dead right about English football. I can never understand why we, as fans, swallow the Murdoch press-fuelled 'he's a slimy French communist' nonsense - he's on our side.
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I am pretty sure that one day in the near future, our game (the EPL that is) will be exposed as greedy & corrupt, Platini & co will then have field day. Unless the FA/Premier league grow some balls & sort it out. I doubt this will happen though as they're probably just as bent as most of the clubs.
That's the thing about Platini, he's dead right about English football. I can never understand why we, as fans, swallow the Murdoch press-fuelled 'he's a slimy French communist' nonsense - he's on our side.
But I want to hate him, I don't know why, I just do. That's why I want us to sort our own game out, i'd probably hate it just as much to hear comment after comment from him gloating about our game. I hate him having the same opinion as me, how dare he.
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I am pretty sure that one day in the near future, our game (the EPL that is) will be exposed as greedy & corrupt, Platini & co will then have field day. Unless the FA/Premier league grow some balls & sort it out. I doubt this will happen though as they're probably just as bent as most of the clubs.
That's the thing about Platini, he's dead right about English football. I can never understand why we, as fans, swallow the Murdoch press-fuelled 'he's a slimy French communist' nonsense - he's on our side.
But I want to hate him, I don't know why, I just do. That's why I want us to sort our own game out, i'd probably hate it just as much to hear comment after comment from him gloating about our game. I hate him having the same opinion as me, how dare he.
I'm like that about that ****** Bono. It's not easy spending all day hoping that Malawi never sorts itself out.
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I see Notts Co. have a PAYE bill to pay.. I thought they were the new Chelsea ;-))
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I am pretty sure that one day in the near future, our game (the EPL that is) will be exposed as greedy & corrupt, Platini & co will then have field day. Unless the FA/Premier league grow some balls & sort it out. I doubt this will happen though as they're probably just as bent as most of the clubs.
That's the thing about Platini, he's dead right about English football. I can never understand why we, as fans, swallow the Murdoch press-fuelled 'he's a slimy French communist' nonsense - he's on our side.
The thing with Platini is he doesn't actually care about English football or the English football fan, he just hates us and wants us to stop being so dominant in the CL. For instance, when has be spoken out about Real Madrid's ridiculous spending or them being financed by the Spanish government??
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I wonder if when signing a player, does the club say:-
"OK, £10m plus £40k a week over a 4 year contract, means an outlay of £18.32m. Lets budget for a selling the player after 3 years and getting £5m back, so a net spend of £11.24m, or £3.75m a year. Will our income through TV rights, gate receipts and prize money increase by that amount and therefore make it a commercially viable deal?"
I very much doubt they do!!
that looks exactly like Dougonomics to me.
Shit, I hope not!!
I was just posing it as an example of does a club decide whether a player's fee and/or wages will result in extra revenue to justify them? If they do then great, but if not then it's basically a blackhole where money disappears, which is when clubs start getting in trouble, unless they have a rich owner who keeps throwing money at them!
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I should have posted here then the Genera's thread but it was put there to try and see if/why clubs refuse to take an active role in this.
The hardship fund concept should be explored more though.
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I should have posted here then the Genera's thread but it was put there to try and see if/why clubs refuse to take an active role in this.
The hardship fund concept should be explored more though.
in the very early days, of course Villa helped out local rivals to keep afloat in the same way. But it is different now in that a reason a lot of clubs got themselves into trouble is that they poor management choices and over reached themselves.
Other clubs say like Accrington have to go part time on the attendances they get (around 1800) it is not feasible to run a full time operation.
maybe there should be an hardship fund but how would you judge the exact critrea of each team, should say a Pompey get help when their business plan was nuts ?
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I would think before any sort of revenue sharing could be implemented a salary cap would need to be in place.
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to make football more equitable these steps should be implemented but would never be
1) go back to sharing home revenue for games at 25% for the away team - no away team, no game
2) Implement a system where a Man City or Chelsea situation of obscene spending can not happen again
3) Monitor clubs debts, where they get above a certain threshold, dock points, implement transfer bans
4) PL to join back with the FL and share TV revenue
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As I tried to explain in the earlier posts clubs that overspend/overstretch themselves need to go through the natural mechanism that will strip them back to the bare bones so thet they can pay off the crippling debts to allow them to survive. Such as Leeds, Bradford, Forest, Oldham etc
This usually means the best players go, but so do their salaries. It means relegation but ultimately survival and a chance to continue. It also means they find their level again and start from there.
The Premier league has created a huge cash cow that many clubs strive to attain. Its not just their fault though because fans will berate a 'sensibly' run club that want to keep its house in order and not jeopardise the clubs future.
We all want Randy to pump more money into Villa to get to the 'promised' land of the top 4. We are guilty of wanting more and don't think of potential consequences.
but football today needs to have businessmen, or proper accountants, to run the money side of the operation. Its no point a manager and fans putting pressure on the board/chairman to supply funds and then simply cross fingers that it will come off.
But that's a different scenario to kings Lynn who no longer have a club because of an unapid tax-bill( I think). Stockport who have a council taht have no intrest in helping the club and who have virtually given away their ground to the tenants who are acting as bullying squatters.
These clubs could apply to those sitting on the board of the Hardship Fund Committee to see if they fulfill the criteria for getting money.
Now, it doesn't need to be the full amount paid off but enough to keep the wolf from the door and then have a business plan drawn up as to how they will look to stay afloat, and how they can live within their means in order to stay afloat. If it means relegation, and dropping out of the leage then so be it.
Any fans of these clubs would prefer that not to happen. But would be a damned sight happier to be relegated than to have no club at all.
The fund's committee will be there to help these clubs and help them with their business plans. However, if the club has already gone into administartion then that should be taken care of. They will pay the money directly to the body who is owed the moeny - usually the tax office.
It shouldn't be used to pay wages of playing staff. If its needed to pay rank and file employees then that maybe considered but probably not wise to go down that route.
The club still has to look at all other options first before the hardship grant is paid. I.E. selling of assets (not the ground), going into administration, having a clearly read line of ownership (unlike Leeds), opening the books to the hardship Fund Committee, going part-time, kicking-off at 2pm on a Sat afternoon, or earlier, to avoid higher electricity charges.
If they pass the criteria set out then they get the money needed. Now, I'm not a business/account minded person so if going into administration is actually worse for the club that can be looked at also. Its for the Fund to organise the criteria but something along the lines above is practicable.
If we are serious about not wanting to see clubs fold when its not their own fault, then we should be lobbying our own club(s) to do something about it.
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The one thing we can't do is turn back the clock. Salary caps are going to be hard to enforce and there's no point expecting the TV money to be more evenly redistributed.
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We all want Randy to pump more money into Villa to get to the 'promised' land of the top 4. We are guilty of wanting more and don't think of potential consequences.
nope I do not, I want Randy after the initial investment to step away somewhat and hopefully to have put things in place that increases the revenue side to help with wages etc.
Our wage bill should certainly not go above the recommended top level of 75% of turnover and to probe you can have success without the excess of others.
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I should have posted here then the Genera's thread but it was put there to try and see if/why clubs refuse to take an active role in this.
The hardship fund concept should be explored more though.
I'm not really in favour. Portsmouth are in trouble because they borrowed money to try to live beyond their means. The banks wanted their money back and they couldn't pay it. Why should other clubs help them out so that they can compete with us again?
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Is it just a coincidence that 3 clubs in serious financial issues have been managed by the same man? (twice in Portsmouths case)
Pompey
Southampton*
West Ham
* How bad must they have been to actually think having Rupert Lowe back as their saviour!
No wonder the fraud squad are all over him
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I should have posted here then the Genera's thread but it was put there to try and see if/why clubs refuse to take an active role in this.
The hardship fund concept should be explored more though.
I'm not really in favour. Portsmouth are in trouble because they borrowed money to try to live beyond their means. The banks wanted their money back and they couldn't pay it. Why should other clubs help them out so that they can compete with us again?
You didn't read my post then?
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I should have posted here then the Genera's thread but it was put there to try and see if/why clubs refuse to take an active role in this.
The hardship fund concept should be explored more though.
I'm not really in favour. Portsmouth are in trouble because they borrowed money to try to live beyond their means. The banks wanted their money back and they couldn't pay it. Why should other clubs help them out so that they can compete with us again?
You didn't read my post then?
No, I didn't but I'm still not sure it's a good idea. It will encourage clubs to take risks if there's a safety blanket to help them out. It's much better to have the game better regulated so that the type of scenario you describe doesn't happen in the first place.
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Is it just a coincidence that 3 clubs in serious financial issues have been managed by the same man? (twice in Portsmouths case)
Pompey
Southampton*
West Ham
* How bad must they have been to actually think having Rupert Lowe back as their saviour!
No wonder the fraud squad are all over him
Yes but our current financial plight has nothing to do with saggy chops.
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I'm not really in favour. Portsmouth are in trouble because they borrowed money to try to live beyond their means. The banks wanted their money back and they couldn't pay it. Why should other clubs help them out so that they can compete with us again?
That wouldn't happen under the type of scheme Peter is proposing, Portsmouth would have to be stripped back to basics, the top earners released, assets sold off to pay creditors etc. I would then go further by looking at their finances after all this has occurred and placing the club in a league they could then realistically compete in, probably at least two or three divisions lower, with relegation reprieves in the divisions they bypass (this is similar to what happens to clubs that go into administration in non-league and it avoids the farce of having clubs sitting bottom of a division on -25 points with no hope of staying up anyway).
Football clubs aren't like other businesses, what other business has hundreds or thousands of dedicated followers willing to pay them cash for nothing tangible in return? They are also usually (especially in the case of many lower league clubs) a focal part of the communities they exist in.
Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.
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Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.
Which shows the gulf that now exists in the game and why Peter's idea has some moral fibre behind it!
Morality in football - what a novel thought!
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If the premiership is the richest in the world how come teams are going under?
I also find it adhorent that the players are super creditors and so get paid in preference to other crediotrs. This means its usually other creditors (the tax man) who is left unpaid and being shown as the bad guy for issuing high court orders. The tax man here is you and I the tax payers of this country. Why should clubs be able to pay players countless millions and renege on paying tax like you and I.
As for Pompey I have very limited sympathy for them. Living beyond their means is a for a cheating and the chickens have come home to roost. Their FA cup win was on the never never.
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If the premiership is the richest in the world how come teams are going under?
Premier League teams don't. It's only the little clubs who suffer.
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If the premiership is the richest in the world how come teams are going under?
Premier League teams don't. It's only the little clubs who suffer.
Portsmouth, West Ham, Leeds, Sheff Weds, Soton, Palace, Spurs (sorry just wishful thinking)
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If the premiership is the richest in the world how come teams are going under?
Premier League teams don't. It's only the little clubs who suffer.
True, but what about shady owners who buy small clubs in the hope of attaching it to a casino/shopping park/hotel, or some other hare brained scheme.
When it all goes tits up they walk, so why have my club got to help bail them out?
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If the premiership is the richest in the world how come teams are going under?
Premier League teams don't. It's only the little clubs who suffer.
True, but what about shady owners who buy small clubs in the hope of attaching it to a casino/shopping park/hotel, or some other hare brained scheme.
When it all goes tits up they walk, so why have my club got to help bail them out?
That sort of situation rarely happens and wouldn't be the type of scenario Peter talked about. The Premier League were instrumental in widening the gap, so they should be the ones who narrow it.
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If the premiership is the richest in the world how come teams are going under?
Premier League teams don't. It's only the little clubs who suffer.
True, but what about shady owners who buy small clubs in the hope of attaching it to a casino/shopping park/hotel, or some other hare brained scheme.
When it all goes tits up they walk, so why have my club got to help bail them out?
That sort of situation rarely happens and wouldn't be the type of scenario Peter talked about. The Premier League were instrumental in widening the gap, so they should be the ones who narrow it.
I wouldn't say rare Dave, there have been more than enough chancers running lower league clubs.
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I wouldn't say rare Dave, there have been more than enough chancers running lower league clubs.
Pleny, but usually for other reasons than redevelopment.
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Remind me, how much are we in the red now ?
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Remind me, how much are we in the red now ?
That is a good point but I'm sure we are still beig subsidised by Randy in some capacity.
We have upped our wages expenditure & obviously our transfer spending during the past 3 1/2 years-I doubt we have increased incoming revenue to counter balance this as yet.I have no doubt that we are bridging the gap in this area & am relaxed about the way our club is run.
I agree with Chris Smith-if clubs like Pompey are irresponsible enough to get themselves in this position,why should the better run clubs like ourselves be expected to help them out?
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I should have posted here then the Genera's thread but it was put there to try and see if/why clubs refuse to take an active role in this.
The hardship fund concept should be explored more though.
I'm not really in favour. Portsmouth are in trouble because they borrowed money to try to live beyond their means. The banks wanted their money back and they couldn't pay it. Why should other clubs help them out so that they can compete with us again?
i think that there has been a bit more going on at Pompey!!!,
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Remind me, how much are we in the red now ?
£100 million is the debt, most of it loans from RL
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Remind me, how much are we in the red now ?
around £70-80m
if we did not spend that money, where do you think we would have been in the league ?
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As I tried to explain in the earlier posts clubs that overspend/overstretch themselves need to go through the natural mechanism that will strip them back to the bare bones so thet they can pay off the crippling debts to allow them to survive. Such as Leeds, Bradford, Forest, Oldham etc
This usually means the best players go, but so do their salaries. It means relegation but ultimately survival and a chance to continue. It also means they find their level again and start from there.
The Premier league has created a huge cash cow that many clubs strive to attain. Its not just their fault though because fans will berate a 'sensibly' run club that want to keep its house in order and not jeopardise the clubs future.
We all want Randy to pump more money into Villa to get to the 'promised' land of the top 4. We are guilty of wanting more and don't think of potential consequences.
but football today needs to have businessmen, or proper accountants, to run the money side of the operation. Its no point a manager and fans putting pressure on the board/chairman to supply funds and then simply cross fingers that it will come off.
But that's a different scenario to kings Lynn who no longer have a club because of an unapid tax-bill( I think). Stockport who have a council taht have no intrest in helping the club and who have virtually given away their ground to the tenants who are acting as bullying squatters.
These clubs could apply to those sitting on the board of the Hardship Fund Committee to see if they fulfill the criteria for getting money.
Now, it doesn't need to be the full amount paid off but enough to keep the wolf from the door and then have a business plan drawn up as to how they will look to stay afloat, and how they can live within their means in order to stay afloat. If it means relegation, and dropping out of the leage then so be it.
Any fans of these clubs would prefer that not to happen. But would be a damned sight happier to be relegated than to have no club at all.
The fund's committee will be there to help these clubs and help them with their business plans. However, if the club has already gone into administartion then that should be taken care of. They will pay the money directly to the body who is owed the moeny - usually the tax office.
It shouldn't be used to pay wages of playing staff. If its needed to pay rank and file employees then that maybe considered but probably not wise to go down that route.
The club still has to look at all other options first before the hardship grant is paid. I.E. selling of assets (not the ground), going into administration, having a clearly read line of ownership (unlike Leeds), opening the books to the hardship Fund Committee, going part-time, kicking-off at 2pm on a Sat afternoon, or earlier, to avoid higher electricity charges.
If they pass the criteria set out then they get the money needed. Now, I'm not a business/account minded person so if going into administration is actually worse for the club that can be looked at also. Its for the Fund to organise the criteria but something along the lines above is practicable.
If we are serious about not wanting to see clubs fold when its not their own fault, then we should be lobbying our own club(s) to do something about it.
sorry Peter but there a whole lot of laws that determine the allocation of funds in respect of Insolvent companys which would render a lot of your ideas unworkeable and potentioly illegal, and how large do you think this fund would need to be? only 3 championship and prem clubs have net assets, the amounts involved are stagering.
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Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.
At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.
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Eventually the Premier League or others will have to adopt the Franchise mechanism that controls the Major Sports in the USA.
The PL is in fact run by ametuers and the stupidity of the people that currently controll the game will mean that there cows eventually come home to roost.
The credit crisis still has a long way to run and its full impact on the economy has yet to be fully recognised.
football is caught in a trap of declining revenues and unsustainable cost structures, there will inevitably be casualties.
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Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.
At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.
yeh right that would sort it out, virtually every club would be in a position to demand the money and there would not be enough to go round, so a director who is lending the club £10 mil withdraws it, the club would get the money right? there are so many wholes in your idea, also i think you need at least an understanding of finance, company law and insolvency law before you can be taken seriously
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I wouldn't say rare Dave, there have been more than enough chancers running lower league clubs.
Pleny, but usually for other reasons than redevelopment.
Either way, how can we guarantee that they don't get their sticky fingers on the subsidy cash, directly or indirectly?
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I wouldn't say rare Dave, there have been more than enough chancers running lower league clubs.
Pleny, but usually for other reasons than redevelopment.
Either way, how can we guarantee that they don't get their sticky fingers on the subsidy cash, directly or indirectly?
You can't, which is why it's not the right solution.
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Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.
Owing money to the taxman is just like any other bill, if you don't pay it, you get shut down, just like any other business which doesn't pay what it owes. If the directors spent the money they should have been paying in PAYE and NI, then tough as it is on the Linnets' fans, they deserved to be wound up. The fact that it's miniscule by Premier League standards is neither here nor there.
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Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.
Owing money to the taxman is just like any other bill, if you don't pay it, you get shut down, just like any other business which doesn't pay what it owes. If the directors spent the money they should have been paying in PAYE and NI, then tough as it is on the Linnets' fans, they deserved to be wound up. The fact that it's miniscule by Premier League standards is neither here nor there.
There but for the grace of God and all that.
If Randy walked tomorrow, demanded his £80m and no buyer was found before the next tax bill was due, I assume you'd be saying the same? That Villa deserved to be wound up because the owner happened to turn out to be a shyster?
It wouldn't happen to Villa of course for many reasons, but why are fans of "big clubs" more worthy than fans of a club only five years younger than ourselves just because they can always find someone else to bail them out?
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The failure of the governing body to enforce the fit and proper person rule and allowing buyers to borrow the full purchase price has destroyed the heart and soul of many clubs. Eventually the premierchip will implode as the attraction of owning a Liverpool or Chelsea diminishes, it may not happen next year but it will happen.It only needs two things to happen for Liverpool to go under, the first is missing out on Europe and the revenue it brings the second is if potential buyers go cold and they are left with the two Yanks who are mortgaged to the hilt. If clubs were forced to live within their means i.e revenue streams and not be allowed massive subsidies from outside sources we may get back a game that we loved.
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Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.
Owing money to the taxman is just like any other bill, if you don't pay it, you get shut down, just like any other business which doesn't pay what it owes. If the directors spent the money they should have been paying in PAYE and NI, then tough as it is on the Linnets' fans, they deserved to be wound up. The fact that it's miniscule by Premier League standards is neither here nor there.
There but for the grace of God and all that.
If Randy walked tomorrow, demanded his £80m and no buyer was found before the next tax bill was due, I assume you'd be saying the same? That Villa deserved to be wound up because the owner happened to turn out to be a shyster?
It wouldn't happen to Villa of course for many reasons, but why are fans of "big clubs" more worthy than fans of a club only five years younger than ourselves just because they can always find someone else to bail them out?
No club should be protected - owe money, don't pay it, get shut down. Unfortunately, that's the way it has to be.
I run a business and spend half my life writing cheques to HMRC. If we suddenly stopped paying them, they'd come after us and keep coming after us until they got the money.
I don't run a 100 year old football club, but if my business got shut down and I heard football clubs were getting special treatment because of the sport, I'd be very annoyed, and so would all the people who lost their jobs as a result of our demise.
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No club should be protected - owe money, don't pay it, get shut down. Unfortunately, that's the way it has to be.
I run a business and spend half my life writing cheques to HMRC. If we suddenly stopped paying them, they'd come after us and keep coming after us until they got the money.
I don't run a 100 year old football club, but if my business got shut down and I heard football clubs were getting special treatment because of the sport, I'd be very annoyed, and so would all the people who lost their jobs as a result of our demise.
Clubs in trouble are mostly in trouble becasue of the way the big clubs act. Football is still a sport and everyone involved owes it to the sport to look after those least able. Ultimately, if there's only one club left who do they play against?
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Paulie, I see your point, but thinking of football clubs as "just another business" is on a par with getting all annoyed because some footballers earn more in a week than you do in a year.
Football, rightly or wrongly, works on a different world to real life, how many hundreds of fans has your business got who are willing to give you cash to watch your workers ply their trade for 90 minutes while you flog them overpriced pies?
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Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.
Owing money to the taxman is just like any other bill, if you don't pay it, you get shut down, just like any other business which doesn't pay what it owes. If the directors spent the money they should have been paying in PAYE and NI, then tough as it is on the Linnets' fans, they deserved to be wound up. The fact that it's miniscule by Premier League standards is neither here nor there.
There but for the grace of God and all that.
If Randy walked tomorrow, demanded his £80m and no buyer was found before the next tax bill was due, I assume you'd be saying the same? That Villa deserved to be wound up because the owner happened to turn out to be a shyster?
It wouldn't happen to Villa of course for many reasons, but why are fans of "big clubs" more worthy than fans of a club only five years younger than ourselves just because they can always find someone else to bail them out?
I don't think its a case of just walking away from the club-he would still be liable.
As I see it,the club are in debt on paper but RL owns the club & is also the person who is owed money by the club.
If RL wanted to sell tomorrow & the club was worth for arguments sake £130mil but had debts of £100mil,the liklehood is that RL would recieve offers for the club of around £30mil along with proposals to re-pay the debt in stage payments.
This myth that you buy into that football owners are ruthless sharks who want to fool joe public into helping them make even more money is just a pipe dream.There is a lot of money in football but it all goes to the players,these are the only real winners in all of this.
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No club should be protected - owe money, don't pay it, get shut down. Unfortunately, that's the way it has to be.
I run a business and spend half my life writing cheques to HMRC. If we suddenly stopped paying them, they'd come after us and keep coming after us until they got the money.
I don't run a 100 year old football club, but if my business got shut down and I heard football clubs were getting special treatment because of the sport, I'd be very annoyed, and so would all the people who lost their jobs as a result of our demise.
Clubs in trouble are mostly in trouble becasue of the way the big clubs act. Football is still a sport and everyone involved owes it to the sport to look after those least able. Ultimately, if there's only one club left who do they play against?
Football is also a business & I don't see why clubs who are run well & within budgets should be asked to bail out clubs like Pompey & Leeds who went for broke & it didn't work out for them.
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Paulie, I see your point, but thinking of football clubs as "just another business" is on a par with getting all annoyed because some footballers earn more in a week than you do in a year.
Football, rightly or wrongly, works on a different world to real life, how many hundreds of fans has your business got who are willing to give you cash to watch your workers ply their trade for 90 minutes while you flog them overpriced pies?
I understand it is not another business to the supporters, but in legal terms, football clubs are also companies, and they have to operate under company law like any other company.
The consequences of not paying a 64k bill to HMRC have got to be the same for a football club as they are to a widget factory.
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No club should be protected - owe money, don't pay it, get shut down. Unfortunately, that's the way it has to be.
I run a business and spend half my life writing cheques to HMRC. If we suddenly stopped paying them, they'd come after us and keep coming after us until they got the money.
I don't run a 100 year old football club, but if my business got shut down and I heard football clubs were getting special treatment because of the sport, I'd be very annoyed, and so would all the people who lost their jobs as a result of our demise.
Clubs in trouble are mostly in trouble becasue of the way the big clubs act. Football is still a sport and everyone involved owes it to the sport to look after those least able. Ultimately, if there's only one club left who do they play against?
Football is also a business & I don't see why clubs who are run well & within budgets should be asked to bail out clubs like Pompey & Leeds who went for broke & it didn't work out for them.
They aren't the issue here. It's clubs like Kings Lynn, who were doing perfectly well until the Premier League came along.
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No club should be protected - owe money, don't pay it, get shut down. Unfortunately, that's the way it has to be.
I run a business and spend half my life writing cheques to HMRC. If we suddenly stopped paying them, they'd come after us and keep coming after us until they got the money.
I don't run a 100 year old football club, but if my business got shut down and I heard football clubs were getting special treatment because of the sport, I'd be very annoyed, and so would all the people who lost their jobs as a result of our demise.
Clubs in trouble are mostly in trouble becasue of the way the big clubs act. Football is still a sport and everyone involved owes it to the sport to look after those least able. Ultimately, if there's only one club left who do they play against?
There are two issues there, though.
The first one is the (using Dave C's example here) not paying the HMRC. As I said in my last post, that's the law, you can't have exceptions for football clubs.
The second one is whether other football clubs should help out. I understand that point, and have some sympathy with it. I just dont have any with football clubs dodging their legal and financial obligations.
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No club should be protected - owe money, don't pay it, get shut down. Unfortunately, that's the way it has to be.
I run a business and spend half my life writing cheques to HMRC. If we suddenly stopped paying them, they'd come after us and keep coming after us until they got the money.
I don't run a 100 year old football club, but if my business got shut down and I heard football clubs were getting special treatment because of the sport, I'd be very annoyed, and so would all the people who lost their jobs as a result of our demise.
Clubs in trouble are mostly in trouble becasue of the way the big clubs act. Football is still a sport and everyone involved owes it to the sport to look after those least able. Ultimately, if there's only one club left who do they play against?
Football is also a business & I don't see why clubs who are run well & within budgets should be asked to bail out clubs like Pompey & Leeds who went for broke & it didn't work out for them.
They aren't the issue here. It's clubs like Kings Lynn, who were doing perfectly well until the Premier League came along.
You'll have to enlighten me on how the Premier League has affected clubs as far down the tier as Kings Lynn-This is a new one on me.
I am all for supporting grass roots football-It was the likes of Pompey etc that I felt deserved no help from other clubs.
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You'll have to enlighten me on how the Premier League has affected clubs as far down the tier as Kings Lynn-This is a new one on me.
One example is since the start of the PL the FA cup has got gradually devalued as the financial rewards for winning it have got relatively smaller, as we have seen even if a small club is lucky enough to pull a tie against one of the big boys they are looking at a share of a gate way down on the normal attendance, why? Because remaining in the PL or qualifying for the CL is now the be all and end all.
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You'll have to enlighten me on how the Premier League has affected clubs as far down the tier as Kings Lynn-This is a new one on me.
I am all for supporting grass roots football-It was the likes of Pompey etc that I felt deserved no help from other clubs.
Pre-Premier League football was still a going-to-watch-it sport. If you lived in King's Lynn there was a good chance you watched them even if they were crap. Now the mentality is such that you support Manchester United from your armchair and sneer at every other club because they're crap. You wouldn't dream of going to watch a game, even if it didn't clash with Sky Ford Super Duper Sunday.
I read something on BBC Sport today where the chairman of King's Lynn said their gates went from 900 to 300 once wall to wall live coverage kicked in.
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The issue is that football clubs are the supporters and Barcelona is the embodyment of this where the club are the supportrs who own the club, the people that run the club are merely custodians and answerable to the club which is its supporters.
Some time ago football clubs in England became companys and the normal corporate rules apply which has created the disconnect between the club which we all feel we belong to and the reality that it is in fact merely a corporation that we dont belong to.
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The issue is that football clubs are the supporters and Barcelona is the embodyment of this where the club are the supportrs who own the club, the people that run the club are merely custodians and answerable to the club which is its supporters.
Some time ago football clubs in England became companys and the normal corporate rules apply which has created the disconnect between the club which we all feel we belong to and the reality that it is in fact merely a corporation that we dont belong to.
Remember when we said this was the way we wanted Villa to go? No one man and all that?
Remember the rush to sell our shares to Randy?
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The issue is that football clubs are the supporters and Barcelona is the embodyment of this where the club are the supportrs who own the club, the people that run the club are merely custodians and answerable to the club which is its supporters.
Some time ago football clubs in England became companys and the normal corporate rules apply which has created the disconnect between the club which we all feel we belong to and the reality that it is in fact merely a corporation that we dont belong to.
Remember when we said this was the way we wanted Villa to go? No one man and all that?
Remember the rush to sell our shares to Randy?
dave but it happened before that, doug floating the company and retaining majority control did not change the status quo, we are lucky i guess because it appears that Randy sees himself as a custodian, we as supporters have never had a say in how the club has been run,
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dave but it happened before that, doug floating the company and retaining majority control did not change the status quo, we are lucky i guess because it appears that Randy sees himself as a custodian, we as supporters have never had a say in how the club has been run,
I know all that (although we did have a say from 1968-79) but it still shows we're willing to forego our principles when necessary.
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dave but it happened before that, doug floating the company and retaining majority control did not change the status quo, we are lucky i guess because it appears that Randy sees himself as a custodian, we as supporters have never had a say in how the club has been run,
I know all that (although we did have a say from 1968-79) but it still shows we're willing to forego our principles when necessary.
did we really? i remember because my dad was an original shareholder, the ordinary shareholders made up a significant minority and were split when the big issues of controll were decided but it was hardly a fans democracy or am i missing something?
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dave but it happened before that, doug floating the company and retaining majority control did not change the status quo, we are lucky i guess because it appears that Randy sees himself as a custodian, we as supporters have never had a say in how the club has been run,
I know all that (although we did have a say from 1968-79) but it still shows we're willing to forego our principles when necessary.
depends on what principles they are, Notts County, support trust sold out to Munto upon great promises of riches and look at them now, barely 6 months on
at Villa we sold out to Randy with actually few solid promises except from reports we thought he would be good and pump money in, he has done and at the same renforced the princiles on which the club was founded, relative to the modern age.
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dave but it happened before that, doug floating the company and retaining majority control did not change the status quo, we are lucky i guess because it appears that Randy sees himself as a custodian, we as supporters have never had a say in how the club has been run,
I know all that (although we did have a say from 1968-79) but it still shows we're willing to forego our principles when necessary.
depends on what principles they are, Notts County, support trust sold out to Munto upon great promises of riches and look at them now, barely 6 months on
at Villa we sold out to Randy with actually few solid promises except from reports we thought he would be good and pump money in, he has done and at the same renforced the princiles on which the club was founded, relative to the modern age.
He's been very good.
He could still fuck us up very badly if he decided he'd had enough, though.
I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
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I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
the unfortuate thing is in the modern game, there is no other way to compete, a supporter trust led club could never compete in the PL and of course I mean at the top 6 level
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I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
the unfortuate thing is in the modern game, there is no other way to compete, a supporter trust led club could never compete in the PL and of course I mean at the top 6 level
I agree entirely.
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Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.
At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.
yeh right that would sort it out, virtually every club would be in a position to demand the money and there would not be enough to go round, so a director who is lending the club £10 mil withdraws it, the club would get the money right? there are so many wholes in your idea, also i think you need at least an understanding of finance, company law and insolvency law before you can be taken seriously
That wouldn't be allowed to happen because as I said, the club would have to open their books to scrutiny. It wouldn't be hard to spot a Bonser at Brighton trying to shaft the club.
No, I don't understand company/insolvency laws but there are enough people better placed than me who do who could make this work. The money could be paid directly to the inland revenue from the fund I guess, but there arse ways to make it work.
Are you seriously saying we should just shrug our shoulders and leave them to it? When you see a club looking seriously close to death, or like Kings Lynn and recently Scarborough, fold completely, you don't care. And don't regret that we, Aston Villa, and other clubs in the top flight don't seem to feel we have contributed in some way.
Or even if you think we haven't, do not we, the richest clubs have a duty to care for the smaller ones? However possible? Football is not just any other business so cannot be looked at as such. If it is then businessmen should take over the running of the whole game.
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Clubs in trouble are mostly in trouble becasue of the way the big clubs act. Football is still a sport and everyone involved owes it to the sport to look after those least able. Ultimately, if there's only one club left who do they play against?
The Premier League would never allow such a thing to happen.
They'd ensure that at least 4 clubs survive. Of course, I have have no clue which four they'd be? [itchy chinny emoticon].
Football is different to regular business as they have many many more stakeholders yet they are obliged (as it should be) to operate under the same rules as a regular business. So, what's the solution?
For me, there simply has to be new laws created that recognise sport as a different entity. I'm not suggesting for a moment that things like tax obligations be any different but I am suggesting that options such as salary caps be beyond any sort of EU legal challenge as it falls under the umbrella of 'sport'. Someone (PeterW?) mentioned ealry on in the piece that there's no way that salary caps would be allowed under the law but if they're commonplace in the most letigious society on the planet, then I'm damned sure they'd be an option in Europe.
The need for any new structure would, of course, have to be (a) recognised and (b) acted upon by the people in charge. Sadly - most sadly - these people that run our game do not have the long-term future of the game as their number one goal. At least not as the vast majority of local fans see it.
Therein lies the problem. The major stakeholders are at odds with the major shareholders. How do we align the two? Robbing Peter to pay Paul when Paul's issues are largely created by Peter's environment is utterly pointless.
A massive restucturing of English football is required. From top to bottom.
I suspect it will take quite a few more clubs going under before disgrunteld fans start banding together to make a stand. However, we all know that local-based fan-power is nothing compared to the power of money. Which is why I think that it will take a massive club - like Liverpool - to be brought to it's knees before the PL take a good hard look at the situation.
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Salary caps are prevalent in the A-League and also the NRL here in Aus.
Needless to say, that's why they don't hold onto decent players and any with an ounce of talent go overseas chasing the money.
I do like the idea of a fund, but on the flips side I also don't think that my club should really have to fork others out of problems? There would have to be some damn strict guidelines and criteria if it were a plausible thing to do.
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Salary caps are prevalent in the A-League and also the NRL here in Aus.
Needless to say, that's why they don't hold onto decent players and any with an ounce of talent go overseas chasing the money.
Even more of a reason to bring it into the European game.
Although I'm sure the caps would be larger in Europe than in Australia, it would hopefully ensure that many players would stay and play in their 'home' market thus improving the game there.
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dave but it happened before that, doug floating the company and retaining majority control did not change the status quo, we are lucky i guess because it appears that Randy sees himself as a custodian, we as supporters have never had a say in how the club has been run,
I know all that (although we did have a say from 1968-79) but it still shows we're willing to forego our principles when necessary.
depends on what principles they are, Notts County, support trust sold out to Munto upon great promises of riches and look at them now, barely 6 months on
at Villa we sold out to Randy with actually few solid promises except from reports we thought he would be good and pump money in, he has done and at the same renforced the princiles on which the club was founded, relative to the modern age.
He's been very good.
He could still fuck us up very badly if he decided he'd had enough, though.
I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
And this is where we have alot to thank HDE for.
He always said he'd only sell if it were in the interests of the Villa to someone who had the Club at heart - and I admit i'd be the first one to roll my eyes and see that as a smoikescreen to cling to his little empire - I just wanted the old boy out of the club.
But in all fairness to Doug, he was extremely dilligent on his due dilligence of our new owner and didn't sell to the obvious 'chancers' that were hawking the club at the time.
So thanks Doug.
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Salary caps are prevalent in the A-League and also the NRL here in Aus.
Needless to say, that's why they don't hold onto decent players and any with an ounce of talent go overseas chasing the money.
Even more of a reason to bring it into the European game.
Although I'm sure the caps would be larger in Europe than in Australia, it would hopefully ensure that many players would stay and play in their 'home' market thus improving the game there.
IMO Salary caps are one of the best things about Australian sport - sure you get dynasties from great coaches but that's beause they are great coaches and tacticians.
Also you find that players really want to win things and don't chase the money so much - high profile players at both the Melbourne Storm (NRL Finalists in each of the last 4 years) and Geelong (AFL Winners in 2 out of the last 3 years) have turned down more lucrative contracts offered by other clubs because they want to be part of Premiership winning teams - it's wonderfully refreshing.
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Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.
At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.
This sort of scheme never works. They'd just spend more knowing they were going to get bailed out.
The problem in football is that NOT ENOUGH teams have gone to the wall in the past - too many have survived by deferring debts, restructuring and the like. We don't need hundreds of professional clubs, with everyone being paid for playing football.
So let 'em go to the wall, whatever league they're in - premiership, championship, East Anglian Div. 7 Sunday Morning League - does it really make that much difference if Kings Lynn or whovever die and are replaced by a team, maybe with a similar name even, playing in the lowest division of the lowest league?
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I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
the unfortuate thing is in the modern game, there is no other way to compete, a supporter trust led club could never compete in the PL and of course I mean at the top 6 level
Isn't that basically how Barcelona are run?
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Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.
At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.
This sort of scheme never works. They'd just spend more knowing they were going to get bailed out.
The problem in football is that NOT ENOUGH teams have gone to the wall in the past - too many have survived by deferring debts, restructuring and the like. We don't need hundreds of professional clubs, with everyone being paid for playing football.
So let 'em go to the wall, whatever league they're in - premiership, championship, East Anglian Div. 7 Sunday Morning League - does it really make that much difference if Kings Lynn or whovever die and are replaced by a team, maybe with a similar name even, playing in the lowest division of the lowest league?
I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up.
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I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
the unfortuate thing is in the modern game, there is no other way to compete, a supporter trust led club could never compete in the PL and of course I mean at the top 6 level
Isn't that basically how Barcelona are run?
and Real Madrid, but both have the banks giving them large loans with little chance of them calling in the debt. The reason Madrid despite being in huge debt, spent £250m in the summer was that Perez is very well connected to the Madrid banks.
It is a state of regional pride over there.
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Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.
At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.
This sort of scheme never works. They'd just spend more knowing they were going to get bailed out.
The problem in football is that NOT ENOUGH teams have gone to the wall in the past - too many have survived by deferring debts, restructuring and the like. We don't need hundreds of professional clubs, with everyone being paid for playing football.
So let 'em go to the wall, whatever league they're in - premiership, championship, East Anglian Div. 7 Sunday Morning League - does it really make that much difference if Kings Lynn or whovever die and are replaced by a team, maybe with a similar name even, playing in the lowest division of the lowest league?
I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up.
Not at all.
1. I think letting more have gone to the wall in the past would have lead to better financial decisions now and ultimately more clubs surviving.
2. The reason why there's 'no money in football' is that there are too many professional players receiving more salary than their clubs generate in income. So why not cut off the supply a little?
2. And of those that went to the wall - does it really make that much difference - do Accrington supporters really bemoan the fact that they ended up playing in a lower league? Same for Bradford Park Avenue or whoever.
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So let 'em go to the wall, whatever league they're in - premiership, championship, East Anglian Div. 7 Sunday Morning League - does it really make that much difference if Kings Lynn or whovever die and are replaced by a team, maybe with a similar name even, playing in the lowest division of the lowest league?
It does to a diehard fan of Kings Lynn, or do they not matter because there isn't that many of them and it's only Kings Lynn after all.
Would you be happy to support FC Villa of Aston in the Midland Combination?
(I would, it would be great!).
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Yes they do. Would you be so flippant if randy puleed the plug and we had to slip to the 4th division next season to start again?
its easy to have a sod you jack mentality regarding other clubs but we are part of the footballing fraternity and should care what happens to our game and other people's clubs.
The reason events such as Hillsborough affect us all so deeply is that it could have been anyone of us. Football fans going off to watch their team and dying.
The same in this case. We should feel it when other clubs die because of reasons out of their control. Instead of looking for problems in proposals, instead of picking holes, instead of not caring because its not likely to happen to us, shuldn't we want to make sure the uniqueness of our football is there forever?
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I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
the unfortuate thing is in the modern game, there is no other way to compete, a supporter trust led club could never compete in the PL and of course I mean at the top 6 level
Isn't that basically how Barcelona are run?
and Real Madrid, but both have the banks giving them large loans with little chance of them calling in the debt. The reason Madrid despite being in huge debt, spent £250m in the summer was that Perez is very well connected to the Madrid banks.
It is a state of regional pride over there.
Yes, but as an ownership structure Barcelona is 'owned' by their season ticket holders, who then elect the president/chairman. Might not work without the backing they have granted, but just shows a stakeholder model can be successful!
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I don't think he will, not for a moment, but that's the flipside of having one owner and owing them lots of money.
the unfortuate thing is in the modern game, there is no other way to compete, a supporter trust led club could never compete in the PL and of course I mean at the top 6 level
Isn't that basically how Barcelona are run?
and Real Madrid, but both have the banks giving them large loans with little chance of them calling in the debt. The reason Madrid despite being in huge debt, spent £250m in the summer was that Perez is very well connected to the Madrid banks.
It is a state of regional pride over there.
Yes, but as an ownership structure Barcelona is 'owned' by their season ticket holders, who then elect the president/chairman. Might not work without the backing they have granted, but just shows a stakeholder model can be successful!
financially in particular Madrid are a basket case, rumours that Perez is looking to rip up the model and bring in outside investment.
Barca are a success in many ways, look at how many players have come up through their fantastic youth system (thus negating the need for Madrid style spending), but that is because they are representitives of Catalonia and it's people, something that would never happen in the UK.
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Football is different to regular business as they have many many more stakeholders yet they are obliged (as it should be) to operate under the same rules as a regular business. So, what's the solution?
Is that correct ?
My understanding is that clubs in financial trouble are allowed to pay "footballing creditors" in preference to other creditors.
Am I right in thinking this ? If so, the general public (in the form of unpaid taxes to the government) would appear to fund payments to "footballing" creditors; which doesn't seem right to me.
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So let 'em go to the wall, whatever league they're in - premiership, championship, East Anglian Div. 7 Sunday Morning League - does it really make that much difference if Kings Lynn or whovever die and are replaced by a team, maybe with a similar name even, playing in the lowest division of the lowest league?
It does to a diehard fan of Kings Lynn, or do they not matter because there isn't that many of them and it's only Kings Lynn after all.
Would you be happy to support FC Villa of Aston in the Midland Combination?
(I would, it would be great!).
Yes.
Would it really make that much difference? Is watching non league football not enjoyable?
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Yes they do. Would you be so flippant if randy puleed the plug and we had to slip to the 4th division next season to start again?
I wouldn't mind at all. Why should I expect someone to subsidise my watching of football anyway?
Are you saying the game is more enjoyable because Sky, Abramovich, the Man City Arabs, Lerner et al have spent their money on inflated player salaries?
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No I'm nopt saying that, quite clearly.
And are you saying that your enjoyment has wained because of Sky, Abramovich, masn City, Arabs, inflated player salaries?
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No I'm nopt saying that, quite clearly.
And are you saying that your enjoyment has wained because of Sky, Abramovich, masn City, Arabs, inflated player salaries?
No - I'm saying it doesn't really make that much difference, which supports my argument that it doesn't make that much difference if Portmouth play in the premier league or the Sourtherm Prem (or whatever it's called) or Kings Lynn go back to playing Sunday parks football.
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The same in this case. We should feel it when other clubs die because of reasons out of their control. Instead of looking for problems in proposals, instead of picking holes, instead of not caring because its not likely to happen to us, shuldn't we want to make sure the uniqueness of our football is there forever?
What about when they die because of reasons within their control?
You could say the PL killed Kings Lynn, which possibly has some truth in it - indirectly - but it is still a sujective assessment. Who makes that call?
What if Portsmouth go under? Who do you blame? The former owners for unsustainable spending? The current owners? It certainly isn't the fault of the fans, but do their owners get a bail out because of that?
If KL were bailed out by some philanthropic football organisation, what happens next time they run out of money?
I understand the thinking behind your ideas, but football clubs are companies - like it or not, emotional ties of customers or not - and subject to company law. It is up to the owners of the clubs to ensure they stay afloat.
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It doesn't to you, no. But it does to their supporters. The same way that I'm sure thousands of Villa supporters wouldn't like to see the club play in the Midland Comb because the club wouldn't be Villa anymore.
That's the point whatever phoenix rises from the Ashes it won't be the same club and their is no guarantee your club will ever rise above local level again.
The pride in the club goes, as does the name, the footballing tradition, and the ghosts of past glories. All gone. Because the greedy money men in the top flight decided to stop redistributing a little bit of wealth.
just because the big clubs decide to accrue huge amounts of debt and continue to trade is no reason why we shouldn't help the smaller clubs are finding themselves increasingly squeezed.
The English league is unique in having 4 good professional leagues and a good non-league scene compared to the rest of the world.
Yes, some go by the wayside because they have been stupid with their own finances - but in the most its not the fans fault.
But we should do everything and anything that we possibly can to preserve that and not just be happy to see an increase in local Sunday league teams and having only 2 professional leagues and a myriad of AFCs playing on Hackney marshes against premiership reserve teams in the new division 3 because if we're not careful that's where we're going.
Regarding salary caps - its easy to impose in Australia and US where the sports are insular and the players don't have a big overseas pool to move around.
To agree it here is very difficult because of EU regulations. It would only work if all clubs agreed to do it - and that means Europe wide and not in England alone.
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Is it just a coincidence that 3 clubs in serious financial issues have been managed by the same man? (twice in Portsmouths case)
Pompey
Southampton*
West Ham
and Bournemouth
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It doesn't to you, no. But it does to their supporters. The same way that I'm sure thousands of Villa supporters wouldn't like to see the club play in the Midland Comb because the club wouldn't be Villa anymore.
That's the point whatever phoenix rises from the Ashes it won't be the same club and their is no guarantee your club will ever rise above local level again.
The pride in the club goes, as does the name, the footballing tradition, and the ghosts of past glories. All gone. Because the greedy money men in the top flight decided to stop redistributing a little bit of wealth.
just because the big clubs decide to accrue huge amounts of debt and continue to trade is no reason why we shouldn't help the smaller clubs are finding themselves increasingly squeezed.
The English league is unique in having 4 good professional leagues and a good non-league scene compared to the rest of the world.
Yes, some go by the wayside because they have been stupid with their own finances - but in the most its not the fans fault.
But we should do everything and anything that we possibly can to preserve that and not just be happy to see an increase in local Sunday league teams and having only 2 professional leagues and a myriad of AFCs playing on Hackney marshes against premiership reserve teams in the new division 3 because if we're not careful that's where we're going.
Regarding salary caps - its easy to impose in Australia and US where the sports are insular and the players don't have a big overseas pool to move around.
To agree it here is very difficult because of EU regulations. It would only work if all clubs agreed to do it - and that means Europe wide and not in England alone.
I think you're missing a key point. All clubs change - all the time .... nothing stays the same forever.
Clubs have new mangers, new players, get promoted and relegated, move grounds even - yet to their supporters they're the same club.
The current pyramid structure of leagues is very new too - there is no great historical precedent for 4 professional leagues. So, I'm not sure why you don't like the idea of "only 2 professional leagues and a myriad of AFCs playing on Hackney marshes " - what's wrong with it?
As for Villa - there are many supporters who look back to the clubs lowest league status as a golden era. You talk of pride and memories of past glories and how are these diminished by playing at a lower level. Yet in Villa's case these were clearly enhanced.
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We've had 4 professional leagues for just shy of 100 years. What more of a historical precedent exactly are you after?
To be so flippant about our footballing history is a pity and really undermines anything else that you may wish to argue about the vitality and future of the game.
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We've had 4 professional leagues for just shy of 100 years. What more of a historical precedent exactly are you after?
To be so flippant about our footballing history is a pity and really undermines anything else that you may wish to argue about the vitality and future of the game.
What I meant was there's no hard and fast rule or precedent for a league comprising 4 professional divisions.
For many years the bottom 2 divisions had varying degrees of full time players. I think it's a relatively recent development for them to be 100% professional. Recently this has been expanded further to include the previous 'non-league' leagues which are now mroe or less professional.
Maybe it's all a bit overblown...
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We should feel it when other clubs die because of reasons out of their control. Instead of looking for problems in proposals, instead of picking holes, instead of not caring because its not likely to happen to us, shuldn't we want to make sure the uniqueness of our football is there forever?
We should feel it when other clubs die, you're right. I don't agree that it's out of their control though.
The nature of the beast is that football is about winning. All clubs want to win else there's no point to it is there? So we have degrees of ambition at every club, as there should be, then we have the oft quoted on here 'speculate to accumulate' 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' etc. The trouble is, if all clubs at whatever level all take this route as they do then it is inevitable that some will come unstuck, not everyone can be the winner. So when a club over stretches itself instead of 'cutting it's cloth to suit' and fails they are paying for the consequences of their ambition or in a lot of cases over ambition without understanding the full implication of their actions should it all go wrong.
Taking the football socialist Utopia that you've outlined can not work. For one, there will be the "we'll be bailed out if it all goes wrong mentality" and two, what's to stop the same clubs who have been bailed out getting into further trouble years down the line, even more chance of happening with some benevolent fund in place?
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So if RL ever pulls the plug we're up shit creek ?
or indeed whats to stop him one day taking his dough back and mortgaging the club to the hilt ? see. ManUre
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Undoubtedly the money at the bottom league has always been a problem. there has been many an occasion where part-time, regionalistaion etc has been mooted again and again to curtail the problem of a lack of funds. However, its the clubs themselves that were not in favour of it.
If clubs were to go part-time then that's up to them but professional clubs run on a shoe-string anyway at the bottom levels anddo not have the staffing levels that would cripple them.
Its not a recent development for them to be 100% professional but what is is the large amount of professional clubs in the Conference. That is creating more pressure on the struggling clubs as the safety net of relegation is not there from the 4th tier into the top non-league division if they are struggling with finances for no fault of their own.
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So if RL ever pulls the plug we're up shit creek ?
No because the interest payments we own are 'only' £4m a year an he could sell us including debts and still make a profit
or indeed whats to stop him one day taking his dough back and mortgaging the club to the hilt ? see. ManUre
nothing it is his club to do with what he likes
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It doesn't to you, no. But it does to their supporters. The same way that I'm sure thousands of Villa supporters wouldn't like to see the club play in the Midland Comb because the club wouldn't be Villa anymore.
That's the point whatever phoenix rises from the Ashes it won't be the same club and their is no guarantee your club will ever rise above local level again.
The pride in the club goes, as does the name, the footballing tradition, and the ghosts of past glories. All gone. Because the greedy money men in the top flight decided to stop redistributing a little bit of wealth.
just because the big clubs decide to accrue huge amounts of debt and continue to trade is no reason why we shouldn't help the smaller clubs are finding themselves increasingly squeezed.
The English league is unique in having 4 good professional leagues and a good non-league scene compared to the rest of the world.
Yes, some go by the wayside because they have been stupid with their own finances - but in the most its not the fans fault.
But we should do everything and anything that we possibly can to preserve that and not just be happy to see an increase in local Sunday league teams and having only 2 professional leagues and a myriad of AFCs playing on Hackney marshes against premiership reserve teams in the new division 3 because if we're not careful that's where we're going.
This is what I wanted to say, but much better put.
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No I'm nopt saying that, quite clearly.
And are you saying that your enjoyment has wained because of Sky, Abramovich, masn City, Arabs, inflated player salaries?
No - I'm saying it doesn't really make that much difference, which supports my argument that it doesn't make that much difference if Portmouth play in the premier league or the Sourtherm Prem (or whatever it's called) or Kings Lynn go back to playing Sunday parks football.
Kings Lynn have never played Sunday League football, why would their very loyal and dedicated fanbase want to watch their team there? Besides, they don't exist any more, 130 years of history wiped out. Yes some of their fans are now trying to set up a phoenix side and hope to get into the Ridgeons Eastern League, but it's not the same team, that team, older than the majority of Premier League teams, has gone forever. Over the cost of Sidwell's weekly wage.
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Kings Lynn went under because their previous owners neglected to pay a £64,000 tax bill to the Inland Revenue, the fans raised nearly half of it, but still they went, 130 years of history gone for Sidwell's weekly wage.
Owing money to the taxman is just like any other bill, if you don't pay it, you get shut down, just like any other business which doesn't pay what it owes. If the directors spent the money they should have been paying in PAYE and NI, then tough as it is on the Linnets' fans, they deserved to be wound up. The fact that it's miniscule by Premier League standards is neither here nor there.
There but for the grace of God and all that.
If Randy walked tomorrow, demanded his £80m and no buyer was found before the next tax bill was due, I assume you'd be saying the same? That Villa deserved to be wound up because the owner happened to turn out to be a shyster?
It wouldn't happen to Villa of course for many reasons, but why are fans of "big clubs" more worthy than fans of a club only five years younger than ourselves just because they can always find someone else to bail them out?
Like it or not, football is a business. We're not spending money that's not ours to spend, Kings Lynn were. I think they were pretty well supported for a team at their level, yet they spent the money owed to HMRC, presumably on wages etc. How is it fair on the other teams in a division if a club can spend what it likes, not pay its dues then get bailed out?
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Yes some of their fans are now trying to set up a phoenix side and hope to get into the Ridgeons Eastern League, but it's not the same team, that team, older than the majority of Premier League teams, has gone forever. Over the cost of Sidwell's weekly wage.
The "Sidwell wages" thing is a total red herring. For what my multi-millionaire neighbour spends on servicing his cars a year I could buy me and the missus a brand new car each, replacing the bangers we run around in, but that's irrelevant. He's rich and I'm not. Just about every team outside the Premier League has financial worries, where do you draw the line? It shouldn't be hard to run a team like Kings Lynnn on an even footing, I don't see why small clubs should be given carte blanche to be rub badly, knowing there's a back up just in case.
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Sorry, I haven't read all the thread so apologies if I'm repeating other posts or if I'm way off target.
The Premier League already has a solidarity/hardship payment scheme in place with the football league whereby they provide up to £30m per season
“£5.4m per season for Football League Youth Development;
£4m per season for Football League clubs’ community investment;
£11.2m per season solidarity payment to split amongst clubs in The Championship,
League 1 and League 2 in line with The Football League’s regulations on financial
distributions;
An extra £11.2m or £22.4m in seasons where there is either one or two ‘spare’
parachute payments”
If the Premier League are to help Football League clubs with issues of financial hardship and insolvency, it is only right that the Football League clubs agree to a level of financial transparency and good governance rules. There have been extensive efforts over the last few years to persuade the football league clubs to adopt mandatory cost controls e.g. spending only a certain %age of turnover on player’s wages. These were adopted across the board in league 2 and voluntarily by some clubs in league 1.
One of the major barriers to putting these type of cost controls in place across the whole of the football league is ironically, the parachute payments clubs get when relegated from the Premier League. These payments in effect distort the market.
If we’re serious about “sharing the wealth” to ensure survival of the traditional football clubs, there are two potentially viable ways of doing it;
1) Join the television properties of the football league with those of the Premier League for an agreed share of the total proceeds.
This would at least ensure there is no further growth in financial disparity between the two leagues. A subsequent “bundling” of those rights in a number of media packages (including the cup competitions) would alleviate any concerns of the competition regulators and could also provide a reasonable level of free-to-air Premier League Football.
2) Re-open the domestic transfer market.
The introduction of transfer windows by FIFA caused a collapse in the domestic transfer market and removed one of the most important traditional methods of wealth redistribution within the game. If the domestic transfer market remained open throughout the year, we would see an increase in wealth distribution and clubs would once again have a method of relief should they encounter financial difficulties.
The only way to achieve these things is for the Premier League, The Football League and the government to reach a joint policy approach.
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If the Premier League are to help Football League clubs with issues of financial hardship and insolvency, it is only right that the Football League clubs agree to a level of financial transparency and good governance rules.
maybe the PL should adopt these rules first and show the way, don't hold your breath
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Yes some of their fans are now trying to set up a phoenix side and hope to get into the Ridgeons Eastern League, but it's not the same team, that team, older than the majority of Premier League teams, has gone forever. Over the cost of Sidwell's weekly wage.
The "Sidwell wages" thing is a total red herring. For what my multi-millionaire neighbour spends on servicing his cars a year I could buy me and the missus a brand new car each, replacing the bangers we run around in, but that's irrelevant. He's rich and I'm not. Just about every team outside the Premier League has financial worries, where do you draw the line? It shouldn't be hard to run a team like Kings Lynnn on an even footing, I don't see why small clubs should be given carte blanche to be rub badly, knowing there's a back up just in case.
If the club is being run badly then they wouldn't fulfill the criteria as set out when i mooted the idea of a hardship fund.
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So taking the Kings Lynn example peter, would you have given them the money to pay off HMRC?
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I haven't seen their books so I don't know exactly why and how they got into financial trouble. That would be for the committee of the hardship fund to decide.
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if clubs do badly, get relegated, lose crowds and revenue, get into trouble, should they be helped then, because that is the natural impact of relegation.
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No, that's part of football. They have to run their ship accordingly.
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No, that's part of football. They have to run their ship accordingly.
I wonder how many clubs though are in trouble because of relegation
look at the number of ex PL sides who got themselves into mess.
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That's not just relegation though - they gambled on high wages which they couldn't sustain. going down in itself shouldn't be a problem as apart from the gates and advertising revenue/sponsorship Sky's parachute payment should keep the wolf from the door.
the problem is that in today's money mad football its not monet men in control of club's finances in the main. that's when clubs get into trouble.
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It's impossible though Peter. As Villadawg says, the only way you could work it would be to share out the TV money more equitably.
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So taking the Kings Lynn example peter, would you have given them the money to pay off HMRC?
Can't speak for Peter but yes, if I was in charge of the hardship fund Kings Lynn would get the cash.
KL's problems stemmed from a takeover by a group that thought that they could sell their ground for housing, it turned out that the ground is council owned and on a lease where it cannot be used for anything other than recreation for lots of years, the new owners lost interest, refused to make any improvements to a ground they no longer had any real interest in, and decided to throw what cash they had at trying to get promoted to the league (was never going to happen!).
As it happens, their ground failed it's grading and they were forcibly demoted to the Southern League on ground grading rules, the new owners bailed out and KL went under.
New people came in, the fans did their best, but ultimately too much was owed to to many, even administration didn't help, that only covers football related debts, which were paid off at 10p in the pound, the HMRC wanted their £64,000 in full, fans and sponsers raised half, not enough, Kings Lynn are no more.
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Wasn't Joachim there at the time they went under?
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Wasn't Joachim there at the time they went under?
He was!
But fair play to him he was doing his coaching badges and playing for next to nothing.
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A couple of additional thoughts on why market forces should be applied to football clubs:
Consider the example of Portsmouth - while they were spending thousands on players, the likes of Albion and Blues were getting relegated because they couldn't afford to compete. In the process they lost considerable income and I'm sure many of their fans would have preferred to see them playing in the higher division. So surely what goes around comes around - if Portsmouth 'do a Leeds' or even go out of business, isn't this fair enough? Isn't fair that the remaining clubs who've been better run get promoted with a fair chance of staying up?
If you accept the above then why shouldn't it apply to the lower leagues as well? i.e. Isn't it fair and proper that clubs like Kings Lynn go out of business and not receive a helping hand enabling them to stay in a league higher than they're otherwise entitled to? Why would you favour a club like Kings Lynn and its supporters over those of their rivals who might take their place?
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If you accept the above then why shouldn't it apply to the lower leagues as well? i.e. Isn't it fair and proper that clubs like Kings Lynn go out of business and not receive a helping hand enabling them to stay in a league higher than they're otherwise entitled to? Why would you favour a club like Kings Lynn and its supporters over those of their rivals who might take their place?
I doubt any team's fans would complain if the consequences of getting a handout from the hardship fund was automatic relegation down a couple of divisions, in fact it makes sense not only because they will be more financially solvent in a lower league but also as a bit of a punishment for overspending in the first place, but in Kings Lynn's case the option wasn't there, they have gone completely.
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Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.
At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.
yeh right that would sort it out, virtually every club would be in a position to demand the money and there would not be enough to go round, so a director who is lending the club £10 mil withdraws it, the club would get the money right? there are so many wholes in your idea, also i think you need at least an understanding of finance, company law and insolvency law before you can be taken seriously
That wouldn't be allowed to happen because as I said, the club would have to open their books to scrutiny. It wouldn't be hard to spot a Bonser at Brighton trying to shaft the club.
No, I don't understand company/insolvency laws but there are enough people better placed than me who do who could make this work. The money could be paid directly to the inland revenue from the fund I guess, but there arse ways to make it work.
Are you seriously saying we should just shrug our shoulders and leave them to it? When you see a club looking seriously close to death, or like Kings Lynn and recently Scarborough, fold completely, you don't care. And don't regret that we, Aston Villa, and other clubs in the top flight don't seem to feel we have contributed in some way.
Or even if you think we haven't, do not we, the richest clubs have a duty to care for the smaller ones? However possible? Football is not just any other business so cannot be looked at as such. If it is then businessmen should take over the running of the whole game.
I just said your ideas are unworkable, thanks for the lecture
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And I'm making an empassioned case for the defence. if you think that's a lecture then I hope your football club dies one day and then you'd be sorry.
I wouldn't tie the hardship fund with automatic relegation as that is unworkable. The hardship fund is an altruistic set-up to help the lower clubs and has no official capacity.
There should, maybe, be a repayment scheme so that its not just a handout. Kings lynn, for example, would have tio pay an interest free repayment plan of a certain amount over a certain period. Not enough to make them poor but low enough to not cripple them.
As I've said I'm not a moneyman but refuse to believe that this is not practicable. If there was enough will this could be done. If King's Lynn, for example, needed money to survibve then as long as the money they received was legal I'm not sure why insolvency laws and such like would come into play. not sure why its impossible either.
All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.
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All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.
It needs more than someone to want it to work, it needs buy-in from lots of different parties, all of whom have looking after number one as their prime motive, which is why it falls at the first hurdle, no matter how noble the intentions.
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All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.
It needs more than someone to want it to work, it needs buy-in from lots of different parties, all of whom have looking after number one as their prime motive, which is why it falls at the first hurdle, no matter how noble the intentions.
Well that's a given. But for that wheel to start turning it takes someone to give it a shove. There are more people prepared to shake there heads and wring their hands then there are those that are trying to look for a way that it could work.
Clubs on their own won't want to give up any of their cash so unless we have a charitable soul shouting from the rooftops, it needs to be fans that need to take the lead and impress the urgency for this to happen to all our various clubs.
Maybe not under this guise but something. Or are we prepared just to watch football teeter on the top heavy money loaded juggernauts at the top whilst the ones underneath one by one disappear. because as much as we seemingly want to look for why this shouldn't work this will go lik edominoes. The first club to go in the professional leagues in the current climate will see that domino effect take one or two other clubs with them as creditors get jittery and think they will lose their money.
This is a very serious time for many lower league clubs and whilst we are in our nice big house feeling warm, if we can't be bothered by the plight of those who are looking down the barrel of a gun then more shame us.
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Now Cardiff face a winding up order from HMRC, no real surprise as I just can not understand how they could have afforded the new stadium.
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All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.
It needs more than someone to want it to work, it needs buy-in from lots of different parties, all of whom have looking after number one as their prime motive, which is why it falls at the first hurdle, no matter how noble the intentions.
Well that's a given. But for that wheel to start turning it takes someone to give it a shove. There are more people prepared to shake there heads and wring their hands then there are those that are trying to look for a way that it could work.
Clubs on their own won't want to give up any of their cash so unless we have a charitable soul shouting from the rooftops, it needs to be fans that need to take the lead and impress the urgency for this to happen to all our various clubs.
Maybe not under this guise but something. Or are we prepared just to watch football teeter on the top heavy money loaded juggernauts at the top whilst the ones underneath one by one disappear. because as much as we seemingly want to look for why this shouldn't work this will go lik edominoes. The first club to go in the professional leagues in the current climate will see that domino effect take one or two other clubs with them as creditors get jittery and think they will lose their money.
This is a very serious time for many lower league clubs and whilst we are in our nice big house feeling warm, if we can't be bothered by the plight of those who are looking down the barrel of a gun then more shame us.
But the Premier League clubs are already providing between £11m and £33m to the football League each season. Where do your draw the line with handouts and begin looking for different solutions?
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When aviable alternative is put forward that is practicable.
The whole point of this is that it is based on the Prem clubs showing an altruistic benevolent side and wanting to make a difference.
if they won't, and if fans don't really care if they do or don't, then it will never get off the ground.
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http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/667875/POMPEYrsquoS-ownership-has-been-thrown-into-fresh-doubt-after-Israeli-businessmen-Roni-Mana-and-Yuram-Yossifoff-were-revealed-as-the-new-powerbrokers-at-Fratton-Park.html
this article confirms that things at Portsmouth are far from clear and in fact the PL should launch an immediate investigation.
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Portsmouth have lost their case at the high court, where they were trying to block the HMRC winding up petition.
They until Feb 10th to settle the tax claim, believed to be approx. £11m.
With the PL refusing to hand over TV money, They are in real danger of becoming the first PL club to be forced into administration.
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nothing more than they deserve.Now to bring down Redknob.
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If Portsmouth go under at least we won't have to suffer that tosser with the bell any more.
On a more serious note I was really sorry to see King's Lynn go under. I lived in KL as a lad and spent many a Saturday afternoon standing on crumbling terracing watching them (especially after half time as you could get in free!).
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I'm glad that the Court took this view. Clubs should not be allowed to get away with running up tax bills to improve their cashflow position.
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Remember when you're hoping for administration who really suffers - the local businesses the clubs owe money to.
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Remember when you're hoping for administration who really suffers - the local businesses the clubs owe money to.
Which is one of the reasons why "football creditors" should not be given preference.
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...and HMRC ie the tax payers - you and me. Quite how a team can pay a punter £80k/week but not pay its tax is beyond me.
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Sol Campbell to Sue Portsmouth for £1.7m in Bonus payments and image rights (http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_5873319,00.html)
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Whilst i have little (in fact, no) sympathy for Portsmouth i can't believe that Sol Campbell, who no doubt was paid very handsomely by the club, has found himself in the position where he is in desperate need of £1.7 million.
Confirms what a money grabbing mercenary he is, although i'm sure he went to Notts County for the 'challenge' but once he found out there wasn't the funds for the 'challenge' he did the honourable thing. No class whatsoever.
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Whilst i have little (in fact, no) sympathy for Portsmouth i can't believe that Sol Campbell, who no doubt was paid very handsomely by the club, has found himself in the position where he is in desperate need of £1.7 million.
Confirms what a money grabbing mercenary he is, although i'm sure he went to Notts County for the 'challenge' but once he found out there wasn't the funds for the 'challenge' he did the honourable thing. No class whatsoever.
so you are owed money by a falling business do you just stand by and watch others grab it. It may seem to be very callous but as per his contract he is owed the money, regardless of how much he has already.
Pompey will have to go into adminstration soon just depends how much Gaydamak and his mates can launder through the club before that.
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Remember when you're hoping for administration who really suffers - the local businesses the clubs owe money to.
But if a team is paying too high wages in an attempt to gain a competitive advantage over its rivals, and doesn't pay its tax, its not only nicking money from taxpayers as pointed out by others, but is potentially damaging local businesses in other areas.
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overspending is a gamble... sometimes it pays off, and the rewards then help pay off that gambling debt, sometimes it doesnt...
but those taking the gamble know the risks...
the fans of portsmouth enjoyed lauding it up over other clubs fans when they won the fa cup, so they were happy to take the spoils of that gamble...
now its time to pay the piper, they play the victim, and i find that quite pathetic...
while slightly different, manure and bin dipper fans will do the same if their clubs financial mismanagement comes back to haunt them (i doubt it will though because they are cash cows to suits who know nothing of the game)...
im sorry if i sound unsympathetic, but i am, so thats how it comes across, but i say, if a club gambles and they lose out, then tough luck...
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He might be entitled to the money but I doubt Campbell's desperate for cash.
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I dont get the Portsmouth money laundering thing. What would you choose to put dirty money through one of the most high profile businesses in Britain, thereby drawing massive attention to yourself? It doesnt make sense.
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He might not be desperate for cash and Sol has generally displayed mercenary tendencies, but its not like hes' owed a few quid for expenses is it. If he's entitled to the £1.7 million, he has every right to go after it. I know I would if my employer tried to shaft me out of a single penny, regardless of the state it left them in.
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Stirling Albion Meercats (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8471740.stm)
If allowed (which sadly for Stirling's finances looks unlikely) do you reckon Small Heath could link up with Bernard Matthews?
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I know it would be a bit fast but if Portsmouth completely go under (ie no administration, do not pass go, out of business), would the points in the league be affected? Got to admit, I don't know how football administration etc works. Mind you, I'm no different to most football clubs in that regard.
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I know it would be a bit fast but if Portsmouth completely go under (ie no administration, do not pass go, out of business), would the points in the league be affected? Got to admit, I don't know how football administration etc works. Mind you, I'm no different to most football clubs in that regard.
Pompey will not go completely out of business, adminstration until the end of the season, wipe debts out as much as possible
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I know it would be a bit fast but if Portsmouth completely go under (ie no administration, do not pass go, out of business), would the points in the league be affected? Got to admit, I don't know how football administration etc works. Mind you, I'm no different to most football clubs in that regard.
The usual method, at least in non-league where teams folding halfway through the season is all too common, is for their record to be expunged and all points gained against them are wiped out.
I can see there being an almighty uproar if this ultimately cost a team a CL place or relegated them!
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I know it would be a bit fast but if Portsmouth completely go under (ie no administration, do not pass go, out of business), would the points in the league be affected? Got to admit, I don't know how football administration etc works. Mind you, I'm no different to most football clubs in that regard.
The usual method, at least in non-league where teams folding halfway through the season is all too common, is for their record to be expunged and all points gained against them are wiped out.
I can see there being an almighty uproar if this ultimately cost a team a CL place or relegated them!
God help Pompey then. Liverpool may need their results expunged to clinch a Champions League spot.
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There's a distinct lack of sympathy for pompey's fans on here which i think is very harsh. The average match going supporter can't be expected to analyse his clubs accounts every 5 minutes, or not celebrate an fa cup win. They probably thought the cash came straight from Gaydamak a la Abramovich, rather than short term bank loans secured against the club.
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There's a distinct lack of sympathy for pompey's fans on here which i think is very harsh.
I find it very hard to have any sympathy for Portsmouth fans purely and simply because it would mean having an ounce of sympathy for twat who likes to get on the tv with the bell.
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They probably thought the cash came straight from Gaydamak a la Abramovich, rather than short term bank loans secured against the club.
maybe they should have questioned it better, did Pompey never publish any accounts ?
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I don't really think that's relevant. I wouldn't know where to start looking at a clubs books, you can't expect average matchgoing supporters to randomly conduct forensic financial investigations into their club, especially when the new owner has been presented as a sugar daddy and everything's rosy on the pitch.
If you want to blame people for what's happened blame Gaydamak, Mandaric for selling to him, the Prem/FA for letting him and maybe the local media for not scrutinising things more closely. But not the fans.
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Well my local team and a rather famous name in Dutch football has officially gone belly up.
http://voetbal.nos.nl/nieuws/artikel/ID/tcm:45-641809/
Its the usual tale of mismanagement and money pissed away on preparing for a new stadium. What makes it worse is that there are possibly another 3 clubs also on the brink of bankrupty here and I would not be at all surprised is FC Eindhoven and Fortuna Sittard don't make it through the season.
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Palace have just gone into administration
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Palace have just gone into administration
BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/crystal_palace/8481549.stm)
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They probably thought the cash came straight from Gaydamak a la Abramovich, rather than short term bank loans secured against the club.
maybe they should have questioned it better, did Pompey never publish any accounts ?
Even if they did, what good would it do. Once somebody buys a club, you're totally at their mercy. If Randy decided to go on a mad spree and saddle us with ridiculous debts a la Leeds, there's nothing we could do to stop him. Looking at the accounts wouldn't help much seeing as they're not produced until a year after the event.
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Well my local team and a rather famous name in Dutch football has officially gone belly up.
http://voetbal.nos.nl/nieuws/artikel/ID/tcm:45-641809/
Its the usual tale of mismanagement and money pissed away on preparing for a new stadium. What makes it worse is that there are possibly another 3 clubs also on the brink of bankrupty here and I would not be at all surprised is FC Eindhoven and Fortuna Sittard don't make it through the season.
http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2468486.ece/Haarlem_football_club_goes_bankrupt? (in english)
wow! 100 years of history, gone.....
Palace will reincarnate and continue with new owners - but.. R.I.P Haarlem
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Well my local team and a rather famous name in Dutch football has officially gone belly up.
http://voetbal.nos.nl/nieuws/artikel/ID/tcm:45-641809/
Its the usual tale of mismanagement and money pissed away on preparing for a new stadium. What makes it worse is that there are possibly another 3 clubs also on the brink of bankrupty here and I would not be at all surprised is FC Eindhoven and Fortuna Sittard don't make it through the season.
http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2468486.ece/Haarlem_football_club_goes_bankrupt? (in english)
wow! 100 years of history, gone.....
Palace will reincarnate and continue with new owners - but.. R.I.P Haarlem
Palace aren’t going bump, hence why they’ve gone into administration and not liquidation.
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It should still be costing them 10 points tho which interestingly (or not) it mentions in the BBC News article online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/8481571.stm) if not the sport one.
Takes them from the brink of the play-offs to the brink of relegation: LINK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/crystal_palace/tables/default.stm)
Actually, it's a shame that if Moses is off, they couldn't get the deal done sooner and avoid this. Shows how tight the Championship is this season too.
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Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke...
(http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/SimonJordanPA_468x724.jpg)
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punchable face alert. Only saved by the fact that he also hates the shit down the road as much as we do.
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I've always had a soft spot for Palace. It's a shame for them.
You'd have thought they would get the capital in quickly from trying to sell Moses.
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Assuming they can sell.
Clubs are probably holding out for the lowest fee as Palace get more desperate to sell.
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I've always quite liked Simon Jordan but haven't followed his career avidly so I am sure someone is going to tell me a million reasons why he is so unpopular...
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I've always quite liked Simon Jordan but haven't followed his career avidly so I am sure someone is going to tell me a million reasons why he is so unpopular...
He said this so he cant be all bad, unlike his club.
If I see another David Gold interview on the poor East End Jewish boy done good I'll impale myself on one of his dildos.
And this.
I think they are disingenuous. The ethics with which they do business, I don't appreciate. I have had enough dealings with them to be able to have that view. Am I surprised? They sell dildos for a living. That gives you a judgement on what they may or may not be.
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If I see another David Gold interview on the poor East End Jewish boy done good I'll impale myself on one of his dildos.
My opinion of Simon Jordan has risen exponentially on the basis of that quote alone.
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If I see another David Gold interview on the poor East End Jewish boy done good I'll impale myself on one of his dildos.
My opinion of Simon Jordan has risen exponentially on the basis of that quote alone.
I would love that printed on a t-shirt.
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A dildo?
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If I see another David Gold interview on the poor East End Jewish boy done good I'll impale myself on one of his dildos.
My opinion of Simon Jordan has risen exponentially on the basis of that quote alone.
Not a David Gold newspaper interview goes by without a picture of him standing arms folded, in front of his personal helicopter in the grounds of his huge mansion.
I'm guessing at £55 for a West Ham away ticket next season.
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has football ever been in such a financial mess ?
it can not be foreever that a white knight comes and rescues every club is it ?
some club somewhere will run out of backers, once one finally goes a few others will follow at this rate.
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I've always quite liked Simon Jordan but haven't followed his career avidly so I am sure someone is going to tell me a million reasons why he is so unpopular...
He said this so he cant be all bad, unlike his club.
If I see another David Gold interview on the poor East End Jewish boy done good I'll impale myself on one of his dildos.
And this.
I think they are disingenuous. The ethics with which they do business, I don't appreciate. I have had enough dealings with them to be able to have that view. Am I surprised? They sell dildos for a living. That gives you a judgement on what they may or may not be.
The bloke is a bit brash but he actually talks a lot of sense
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Such a shame to see this happen at a club managed by Neil Warnock.
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Portsmouth crashing at a rate of knots.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8486073.stm
but the big mystery is why Redknapp is yet again after another Centre back who is worse than any of the crocks they already have
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Did you see that their OS got shut down? Pretty funny
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That's what I was thinking.
I don't know what is most amazing, the parlous state of Portsmouth's finances, or the fact that Spurs want to resign an utterly shite player they sold to Pompey, for an absurd ELEVEN MILLION POUNDS.
I heard today that their OS was down for a while as they didn't have the dough to pay their hosting company.
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The most amazing thing is that Portsmouth want £14million for him.
He's in my fantasy team unfortunately.
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sorry but Spurs are paying £11m for Kaboul ?
is that right ?
that can not be right
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sorry but Spurs are paying £11m for Kaboul ?
is that right ?
that can not be right
It shouldn't be right, but apparently it is.
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sorry but Spurs are paying £11m for Kaboul ?
is that right ?
that can not be right
It shouldn't be right, but apparently it is.
something is awfully wrong there, OK they are being asset stripped, however Levy is no fool and has stopped Harry on thngs like this.
For Levy this must smell especially as it well know Spurs have to sell, unless Keane to us !!
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The number of transactions between Spurs and Portsmouth of late is certainly interesting.
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The number of transactions between Spurs and Portsmouth of late is certainly interesting.
well old manager syndrome but Levy is very cute in deals and no way would he pay £11m for a player they sold for £4m, who has not improved, from a club desperate to sell.
That would be basically giving a bunch of very dodgy people who now control Pompey £7m or more for free
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Mirror is reporting £ 6 Mill plus some keeper. Sounds believable. They are probably just taking the player back and writing off the outstanding payments.
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What's interesting is that the Chief Exec and the manager don't know about the sales of two of their better players.
So who did Harry 'I'm innocent me guv' Redknapp contact?
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What's interesting is that the Chief Exec and the manager don't know about the sales of two of their better players.
So who did Harry 'I'm innocent me guv' Redknapp contact?
Peter Storey is his mate
I can only guess someone else offerred Kaboul to Spurs and Redknapp knew this was behind Storey's back
or Storey is lying to claim for constructive dismissal
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Who will it have been who called the administrators into Crystal Palace? I assume Simon Jordan, but anyone know any different?
If that were the case, he must surely have been fully involved in the ongoing discussions as regarded Victor Moses' potential sale and know the damage going into administration would do to their selling position and promotion challenge. Suggests that the club is in MASSIVE problems if in spite of this impending injection of £2.5 million, he still took the decision to hand them over to the administrators.
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The bank usually have the final say when it comes to appointing Administrators - if they think their investment is at risk.
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The number of transactions between Spurs and Portsmouth of late is certainly interesting.
That programme on Sunday mornings on Sky with the tabloid journalists discussed this, the smirks and hints at 'a big story about to break' would seem to indicate that its not only suspicious on internet boards.
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Who will it have been who called the administrators into Crystal Palace? I assume Simon Jordan, but anyone know any different?
If that were the case, he must surely have been fully involved in the ongoing discussions as regarded Victor Moses' potential sale and know the damage going into administration would do to their selling position and promotion challenge. Suggests that the club is in MASSIVE problems if in spite of this impending injection of £2.5 million, he still took the decision to hand them over to the administrators.
If I recall, it was the Hedge Fund owners that own Palace and they called the administrators in. At lease that was what Warnock was suggesting. They were hoping to get closer to £5 million for Moses but as soon as they went into adminstration pretty much had to accept any reasonable offer.
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Who will it have been who called the administrators into Crystal Palace? I assume Simon Jordan, but anyone know any different?
I heard one of the Administrators iterviewed on the radio last week and he wouldn't say who it was just that it was a business which was owed money by Palace. He said that the director's were not happy but were co-operating.
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Who will it have been who called the administrators into Crystal Palace? I assume Simon Jordan, but anyone know any different?
I heard one of the Administrators iterviewed on the radio last week and he wouldn't say who it was just that it was a business which was owed money by Palace. He said that the director's were not happy but were co-operating.
a hedge fund called Agilo apparently who were owed £5m and thus wanted to force the sale of Moses and ensure all the money was paid to creditors.
they specialised in going into trouble companies and basically asset stripping
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What fcuking idiots then. They devalued Palace's one sellable asset, jeopardised the side's chance to push for the profitable play-offs and that's that. Idiots.
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What fcuking idiots then. They devalued Palace's one sellable asset, jeopardised the side's chance to push for the profitable play-offs and that's that. Idiots.
wanted their cash I guess, that overrides any other concerns.
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If I see another David Gold interview on the poor East End Jewish boy done good I'll impale myself on one of his dildos.
My opinion of Simon Jordan has risen exponentially on the basis of that quote alone.
Jordan used to write a column in The Observer each week and it completely altered my opinion of the bloke, he wasn't afraid to say exactly what he thought of fellow chairmen and owners (especially Sullivan and Gold)and the suits at the F.A. and he spoke an awful lot of sense.
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Not really of any relevance, but it amuses me
My brother was at a wedding in Puerto Banus a couple of years ago, at which several football people were present (including, strangely, Ron Atkinson sat very close to some former very well known Blues hooligan names, but that's going off on a tangent).
Simon Jordan was invited, turned up late in one of those McClaren F1 road cars, ponced around with shades on indoors all night, wore a sweater over his shoulders like a 1930s Eton fop, and acted a total 'look at me' ****** the entire evening.
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Simon Jordan was invited, turned up late in one of those McClaren F1 road cars, ponced around with shades on indoors all night, wore a sweater over his shoulders like a 1930s Eton fop, and acted a total 'look at me' c*** the entire evening.
Admittedly he does look and act like a an orange skinned 80's throwback foppish c*** but his columns were ace.
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If I see another David Gold interview on the poor East End Jewish boy done good I'll impale myself on one of his dildos.
He's going to impale himself on David Sullivan?
*horror scream smilie*
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Simon Jordan was invited, turned up late in one of those McClaren F1 road cars, ponced around with shades on indoors all night, wore a sweater over his shoulders like a 1930s Eton fop, and acted a total 'look at me' c*** the entire evening.
Admittedly he does look and act like a an orange skinned 80's throwback foppish c*** but his columns were ace.
And he likes the Specials. Another plus.
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Simon Jordan was invited, turned up late in one of those McClaren F1 road cars, ponced around with shades on indoors all night, wore a sweater over his shoulders like a 1930s Eton fop, and acted a total 'look at me' c*** the entire evening.
Admittedly he does look and act like a an orange skinned 80's throwback foppish c*** but his columns were ace.
And he likes the Specials. Another plus.
I'm fairly certain he had a part in getting them (almost) back together as he was hoping to promote a stadium gig. Doesn't look much like a Rude boy though.
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Good to see Man Utd still in deep trouble.
Their recent bond issue is one of the worst performers on the market and may restrict them from returning to the bond market to refinance their refinanced, refinanced debts.
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Good to see Man Utd still in deep trouble.
Their recent bond issue is one of the worst performers on the market and may restrict them from returning to the bond market to refinance their refinanced, refinanced debts.
I thought that their bond issue went really well? Or is it a case of them all getting taken up and then performing like shite?
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I saw Simon Jordan in London the other day. He was wearing shorts, football socks and was whistling. It was in Mayfair.
And that's not a lie. And I'm not even going to make up a song about it.
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And that's not a lie. And I'm not even going to make up a song about it.
Ahhh go on.
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OK (to the tune of 'We're on the march...'):
Who's that standing up in Mayfair?
Who's that wearing football socks?
It's Jordan and his shorts
And he looks like he's got warts
And he's got those bloody awful blondey locks
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Good to see Man Utd still in deep trouble.
Their recent bond issue is one of the worst performers on the market and may restrict them from returning to the bond market to refinance their refinanced, refinanced debts.
I thought that their bond issue went really well? Or is it a case of them all getting taken up and then performing like shite?
The latter. Dumb asses in the City are now waking up to realise it was over priced. They're not happy.
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Pompey have been taken over again.
Subject to the fit and proper persons test - don't laugh at the back.
Football establishment no mark: "Ah yes my good man I can tell you are a fit and proper person by the cut of your expensive (looking) suit".
Slimey, untrustworthy looking representative of new owner (who isn't even present at meeting): "Oh yes indeed, slither, slither, hiss, hiss".
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Good to see Man Utd still in deep trouble.
Their recent bond issue is one of the worst performers on the market and may restrict them from returning to the bond market to refinance their refinanced, refinanced debts.
I thought that their bond issue went really well? Or is it a case of them all getting taken up and then performing like shite?
Seems the bond issue didn't go that well.....
"The banks selling the bonds struggled to find buyers and went to the four corners of the earth to get it done," said Jonathan Moore, a high yield bond analyst at Evolution Securities. "There was very little appetite for the sterling part of the deal – of the 30 or so investors in London I have spoken to, only two bought it. As the markets have weakened since the deal was priced, the institutions have offloaded it, but there are particular worries on the Manchester United bond because of the weak covenants, and the Glazers' ability to take cash out of the company."
And they've lost about 5% of their value in a fortnight and people are trying to sell.....
The bond, which was issued accompanied by a brochure that laid bare the club's spiralling debts and outlined the possibility of selling off the club's training ground, was initially priced at a discount to attract investors and has since fallen even further. Bond holders wishing to sell now would make a five percentage point loss.
Clicky (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/uniteds-bond-scheme-sends-investors-into-red-1888741.html)
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Apologies for the long post.
An interesting spat is developing between the Spirit of Shankly (SOS) Liverpool supporters union and Christian Purslow, the Liverpool CEO.
They had a meeting on the 21st Jan and both sides are disputing what was said, to the extent that they have failed to agree the minutes of the meeting, with SOS publishing both versions on their website.
Examples of the comments attributed to Purslow by SOS are;
CP - It is not a given that £100 million will buy 25%. I need to find £100 million, and if this is for 1% or 100% I don't care. I am concentrating on getting the investment needed. Some investors may have issues with working with the present owners, but some don't just want a percentage, some want 100%. No investor is going to want to invest £100 million and have a smaller stake than the present owners.
SOS - Do Hicks and Gillett value the club too high?
CP - No one would invest at the level they want.
SOS - Are there discussions with other banks, to try and get a better deal for any re-financing?
CP - There have been around 30 meetings with different banks, we want the best deal for the club. If other banks will give us a better deal, we will work with them. No other bank will take us on with £237 million debt, they want less debt. RBS are unhappy with the present ownership, so an improved situation at the cub will improve our relationship with them. They want to continue working with us.
CP - … The player account is funded by player sales and any profit. Presently profit goes primarily towards paying the debt, so reducing debt means we have more money to spend.
The present owners have made it clear that they will not invest more money of their own; they have already invested around £130 million. We will not be like Manchester City or Chelsea as we are living within our means.
In the summer we had seven new contracts signed on new deals for existing players; this had to be funded from player sales, losing other wage costs and the profit available. Agents’ costs for new signings or contract renewals, around 1.5 %, come out of the player account as well…
SOS - Gillett has told fans including myself in the past that they have used their own money for player purchases, how does this fit with the player account about being self sufficient?
CP - I am not the owners, I am the management. They did invest their own money, £15-£20 million each season for the first few years. This wasn't good for us and it needs to be managed. They have no money now to invest; they have spent £130 million, and cannot borrow further.
SOS - Will the transfer net spend always be zero as, what goes in is all that can go out?
CP – The Player Account is made up of player sales and any profit put into it. Profit will not be as much this season due to disappointing season so far.
SOS - If investors don't come into the club, do we become a mid-table team?
CP - LFC is for sale. It will be sold. The owners have to sell, they are out of money. The bank want it sold, the fans want it sold and people want to buy it. The problems on the pitch at the minute aren't the fault of the owners. It is not simple enough to say that new owners will guarantee results on the pitch.
Full transcripts of the minutes from both parties published here
Minutes from Christian Purslow and SOS Meeting - Clicky (http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/Minutes-from-Christian-Purslow-and-SOS-Meeting.html)
The chances of Liverpool refinancing through the bond market are significantly reduced after the news that Man Utd’s bonds, which were sold at a discount 2 weeks ago, have dropped a further 5%.
United's bond scheme sends investors into red - Clciky (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/uniteds-bond-scheme-sends-investors-into-red-1888741.html)
I almost felt sorry for Purslow when I read this bit in his version of the minutes "And as I said to a small group of you when I arrived. The most difficult part of bringing in investment is the coverage of disturbances or protests at games. Much is overplayed but it gets read. The fact is that the owners are working hard to bring in investment. They are not an obstacle to this process-indeed they started it and bringing me in confirmed it. But it is tough to persuade new investors of the attraction of the club if they think they will get hassled every time they visit. So I again urge you all to think about this aspect and try and do the right thing. We are making slow but sure progress. Please help us get the job done and we will happily continue to keep you and your members informed via this channel of communication."
He didn't get what he wanted :-)
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CP - LFC is for sale. It will be sold. The owners have to sell, they are out of money. The bank want it sold, the fans want it sold and people want to buy it. The problems on the pitch at the minute aren't the fault of the owners. It is not simple enough to say that new owners will guarantee results on the pitch.
no wonder Purslow is disagreeing with these comments, they are inflammatory against Bentiez and lowers the selling price of the club, can not beleive any decent CEO would say that
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I can't believe the Liverpool fans were so stupid to make public the minutes of the meeting. Or maybe I can.
What a mess.
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CP - LFC is for sale. It will be sold. The owners have to sell, they are out of money. The bank want it sold, the fans want it sold and people want to buy it. The problems on the pitch at the minute aren't the fault of the owners. It is not simple enough to say that new owners will guarantee results on the pitch.
no wonder Purslow is disagreeing with these comments, they are inflammatory against Bentiez and lowers the selling price of the club, can not beleive any decent CEO would say that
That's exactly what I thought. If he did say that, then he's pretty naive to think it wouldn't get published / used against the club.
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Noticed this
Attended - Christian Purslow, James McKenna, Graham Smith, Jon Paul Hill, Nicky Allt, Fran Stanton, Stephen Monaghan, Keir Culvin, Daniel Nicolson, Tommy Keiner, Andy Williams, Paul Gardner, Peter Hooton.
I imagine he played the conciliatory role. All together now, etc etc
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SOS making things up eh ?
that damages the name of all decent fans groups.
really they should have both agreed an independet person does the minutes.
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SOS making things up eh ?
Well, we don't know, in fairness, he might actually have said that, in a misjudged attempt to get the fans "on board".
really they should have both agreed an independet person does the minutes.
Yes, if what was said in the meeting was going to be in the public domain, they should have agreed on this.
Reading it, I bet the CEO wasn't aware it was going to come out. Which is very naive.
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SOS making things up eh ?
Well, we don't know, in fairness, he might actually have said that, in a misjudged attempt to get the fans "on board".
really they should have both agreed an independet person does the minutes.
Yes, if what was said in the meeting was going to be in the public domain, they should have agreed on this.
Reading it, I bet the CEO wasn't aware it was going to come out. Which is very naive.
yep regardless of whether he was misquoted or not, he has no way now of disproving it. Give SOS so much credit for actually boxing them in like that.
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SOS have a bit of history for being arse holes, so I suppose it's no surprise. I'd imagine they've now lost any possible direct communication channel with the club.
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Pompey have been taken over again.
Subject to the fit and proper persons test - don't laugh at the back.
Football establishment no mark: "Ah yes my good man I can tell you are a fit and proper person by the cut of your expensive (looking) suit".
Slimey, untrustworthy looking representative of new owner (who isn't even present at meeting): "Oh yes indeed, slither, slither, hiss, hiss".
I don't think Pompey will last till the end of the season. Eventually some absent-minded sheikh will forget he owns it, neglect to pay the gas bill, and the whole thing will disappear in a puff of debt
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I don't think Pompey will last till the end of the season. Eventually some absent-minded sheikh will forget he owns it, neglect to pay the gas bill, and the whole thing will disappear in a puff of debt
They will last the season.
Not because they aren't fooked, they certainly are, but because the Premier League won't want to deal with the inevitable outcry and legal action should a club like, say, Sunderland get relegated or worse, Man City miss out on the Champions League due to the points they will lose when Portsmouth's record gets expunged.
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More evidence of how football has gone absolutely mental.
Dyer straits! Five starts, no goals...and Kieron Dyer will cost West Ham 30million quid!
The former England midfielder is fast becoming an emblem of the reckless financial regime of Icelandic owner Bjorgolfur Gudmundsson and his sidekick Eggert Magnusson.
West Ham’s medical team raised doubts about Dyer’s signing when he arrived from Newcastle in August 2007 but the transfer was rushed through before the deadline because the owners were keen to showcase top-class players.
Dyer, who has managed just 558 minutes of League action for the club, signed a four-year deal reported to be worth £70,000 a week but broke his right leg soon after his debut and missed more than a year as he suffered complications in his recovery.
His transfer fee was £7m - £1m more than the figure publicised at the time - and the agents’ fees on the deal cost the Hammers another £1m.
Together with bonuses and National Insurance contributions, the club can expect to have paid out the thick end of £30m for him by the time his contract has expired at the end of next season.
Dyer has struggled through this campaign with hamstring problems and the 31-year-old has not played since limping off at Bolton in December.
He is closing in on another first-team return but if his fitness fails and he breaks down again, West Ham could seek to negotiate a deal to pay up his contract and bring to a premature end his disastrous spell at the club.
Such lavish rewards and lengthy contracts are not likely to be encouraged by new owners David Sullivan and David Gold, who signed Mido on loan from Middlesbrough last month for a basic wage of just £1,000 a week
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1249494/Dyer-straits-Five-starts-goals--Kieron-Dyer-cost-West-Ham-30million-quid.html
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Chester players have refused to turn up for their game tonight. The fans have already boycotted the club. Not good.
I predict they will be the latest team to be 're-invented' lower down the leagues.
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Portsmouth haven't been able to reach a deal with HMRC and are still on the list for winding up tomorrow.
A deal is still possible but is looking increasingly unlikely.
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Portsmouth haven't been able to reach a deal with HMRC and are still on the list for winding up tomorrow.
A deal is still possible but is looking increasingly unlikely.
I don't see anywhere they could get any kind of serious money to pay them off and prove after relegation they could pay the rest
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Re: West Ham - is anybody else heartily sick of Pornodwarf and Captain Hogseye banging on about fiscal ridiculousness they keep uncovering at the club? We're meant to think that they're being honest, true and proper businessmen but to me it all smacks of being sold a pig in a poke and whining about it.
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Portsmouth haven't been able to reach a deal with HMRC and are still on the list for winding up tomorrow.
A deal is still possible but is looking increasingly unlikely.
I don't see anywhere they could get any kind of serious money to pay them off and prove after relegation they could pay the rest
"Worse still the club could even face liquidation and go out of business completely."
The Telegraph - Clicky (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/portsmouth/7199723/Portsmouth-ready-to-talk-all-through-the-night-to-avoid-winding-up-action.html)
If they did go out of business and the results annulled it would help Liverpool to the detriment of the other contenders. It's bound to happen isn't it?
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Let's try to drive Wigan to bankruptcy...
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Re: West Ham - is anybody else heartily sick of Pornodwarf and Captain Hogseye banging on about fiscal ridiculousness they keep uncovering at the club? We're meant to think that they're being honest, true and proper businessmen but to me it all smacks of being sold a pig in a poke and whining about it.
I think they knew exactly what they were buying. This stuff is their way of undermining the supplier and employee contracts that are in place. They are absolutely fucking shameless.
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they would go into adminstration before the hearing
However this should have happened before but what is going on at Pomepy will make a good book because the truth could well be far murkier than simple bad mismangement.
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If they did go out of business and the results annulled it would help Liverpool to the detriment of the other contenders. It's bound to happen isn't it?
Liverpool have been the luckiest team on the planet for pretty much my entire life, and I'm in my 40s, so that really wouldn't surprise me at all.
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they would go into adminstration before the hearing However this should have happened before but what is going on at Pomepy will make a good book because the truth could well be far murkier than simple bad mismangement.
they would have to move very quickly if they havent allready filed the application into court, if the winding up petition gets heard before the Admin hearing they are toast, , also an Admin (2-2)application has to have proof of funding, it is very unusual to get to the day of a winding up petition being heard and get an Admin order through
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Re: West Ham - is anybody else heartily sick of Pornodwarf and Captain Hogseye banging on about fiscal ridiculousness they keep uncovering at the club? We're meant to think that they're being honest, true and proper businessmen but to me it all smacks of being sold a pig in a poke and whining about it.
i saw the Zola interview he was rightly pissed off that they made the statement before the game, you can tell Zola is a decent bloke, he wont last with those scumbags
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However, you look at it Portsmouth are fucked. I remember in the summer a reporter saying they would rather be in Pompey's position than Arsenal's with all the limitless funds coming their way via their new arab owners. Twat!
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Re: West Ham - is anybody else heartily sick of Pornodwarf and Captain Hogseye banging on about fiscal ridiculousness they keep uncovering at the club? We're meant to think that they're being honest, true and proper businessmen but to me it all smacks of being sold a pig in a poke and whining about it.
i saw the Zola interview he was rightly pissed off that they made the statement before the game, you can tell Zola is a decent bloke, he wont last with those scumbags
I agree.
He seems a decent type, and Sullivan and Gold have made themselves look like the half witted shysters they are over this.
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Re: West Ham - is anybody else heartily sick of Pornodwarf and Captain Hogseye banging on about fiscal ridiculousness they keep uncovering at the club? We're meant to think that they're being honest, true and proper businessmen but to me it all smacks of being sold a pig in a poke and whining about it.
i saw the Zola interview he was rightly pissed off that they made the statement before the game, you can tell Zola is a decent bloke, he wont last with those scumbags
I agree.
He seems a decent type, and Sullivan and Gold have made themselves look like the half witted shysters they are over this.
and if you want confirmation you have to hear rednapp waxing lyrical about the 2 Davids-proper football people
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they would go into adminstration before the hearing However this should have happened before but what is going on at Pomepy will make a good book because the truth could well be far murkier than simple bad mismangement.
they would have to move very quickly if they havent allready filed the application into court, if the winding up petition gets heard before the Admin hearing they are toast, , also an Admin (2-2)application has to have proof of funding, it is very unusual to get to the day of a winding up petition being heard and get an Admin order through
thanks, so they have no plan, not surprising because the reason I believe they have not gone into admin before is that they did not want to see independent people see the (crooked) books
they are playing poker with the fans that they care nothing for and on the surface a game of revenge between crooks.
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Portsmouth have had an air of the car boot sale around them for some time. A load of stock, no idea how it got there, cash in hand, looking furtively around for the police.
No idea what the hell's gone on there but for me it's stemmed from that Panorama programme years ago which pointed the finger at old Candleface. Portsmouth have always looked dodgy to me since then - may be nothing but for me plenty of mud has stuck.
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Portsmouth, Cardiff City and Southend United all facing Winding Up orders today.
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Portsmouth have had an air of the car boot sale around them for some time. A load of stock, no idea how it got there, cash in hand, looking furtively around for the police.
No idea what the hell's gone on there but for me it's stemmed from that Panorama programme years ago which pointed the finger at old Candleface. Portsmouth have always looked dodgy to me since then - may be nothing but for me plenty of mud has stuck.
The sad thing is, as dodgy as he (allegedly) is, there are just so many far more dodgy characters (some real, some fictional) around Pompey.
Imagine that. 'appy 'arry NOT being the shiftiest bloke at their Christmas Party.
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Chester players have refused to turn up for their game tonight. The fans have already boycotted the club. Not good.
I predict they will be the latest team to be 're-invented' lower down the leagues.
The Conference are desperately trying to keep them going until the end of the season so as not to upset teams who will lose points if they fold now, but this should be the final straw, their fans have been resigned to reforming for months now, they already have a plan and a groundshare if The Deva is sold.
Tamworth will lose six points, but then again so will most other teams!
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The bottom of the pyramid is going to be pretty crowded at this rate. Full of teams who think they deserve better.
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Did anyone see the interview with Bagpuss on SSN regarding Portsmouth.
He could not look directly into the camera
I obviously cannot put all the blame at his door but how he can sleep at night when he contributed a huge amount of debt on the club buying certain players and then buying them back
Some of the nonentities on their books that he bought on huge wages is frightening
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Redknapp might have suggested the players, but ultimately Storrie will have sanctioned the deals, and I imagine he would have been the one who saw the wider picture and should have known better.
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If Pompey go bust, Liverpool will benifit because they lost, where we will loose the points we gained from beating them! Very unfair!
Find out in an hour!
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Well that just about does it for them.
We all know that anyway the 'powers that be' can ensure those jammy Scouse bastards can be in the Champs League (such as changing the rules in 2005) they will.
Bye bye Pompey.
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SSN "Inland Revenue reject cash offer from Portsmouth"
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SSN "Inland Revenue reject cash offer from Portsmouth"
There's a surprise.
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SSN "Inland Revenue reject cash offer from Portsmouth"
There's a surprise.
I'm surprised, as they offered almost half of their £7.8m debt up front, with the rest to follow from TV money. Are the Inland Revenue that desperate to get their hands on all the cash now or is it a case of even with the TV money, Pompey are buggered?
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If Pompey go bust, Liverpool will benifit because they lost, where we will loose the points we gained from beating them! Very unfair!
Find out in an hour!
I don't get this. I thought it was just a points deduction for Portsmouth. As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with fixtures played. Portsmouth will still complete their fixtures for the season.
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No, this is a winding up order, not to go into administration. All players will be free agents and club no longer exsists!
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I can see them going into Adminsitration now and accepting relegation.
Edit. See above. Dear me.
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I hope so,
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If Pompey go bust, Liverpool will benifit because they lost, where we will loose the points we gained from beating them! Very unfair!
Find out in an hour!
I don't get this. I thought it was just a points deduction for Portsmouth. As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with fixtures played. Portsmouth will still complete their fixtures for the season.
Not if thet go into liquidation. In effect, they will cease to exist. Clubs are only put into administration and continue in business if that is considered the best way of clawing back any money.
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I hope so,
Why do you hope a football club goes out of business, thousands of people exactly like you don't have a team to support anymore and local traders lose money?
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No I hope the get out of it and don't get wound up!!!
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No I hope the get out of it and don't get wound up!!!
Right, sorry for the misunderstanding. I do as well.
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So we lose 3 points and 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' don't? Typical lucky scouse bastards!
Does anyone know if Spurs or Man City stand to lose any points?
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Unless they can get the company into Administration before the Winding Up Petition is approved.
I'm not sure if this is possible. One of my colleagues is looking into this for me.
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Don't we all
Having said that, I've little sympathy for them because its all of their own doing. In this day and age where clubs earn more money than ever there really is no excuse for anyone getting into this state
Its quite shocking.
But the sympathies always lie with the supporters who've always been there and done their bit for the cause
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So... Pompey got any good players left we could have?
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So... Pompey got any good players left we could have?
Steady on chaps. nan's not even dead, leave her teaspoons alone
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Following on from my earlier post.............
My colleague understands that they could still put the company into Administration at this point and prevent the winding up.
This would mean the 10 point deduction and almost certain relegation (its not like they were going to escape anyway) but it would prevent (or at least delay) liquidation.
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Case adjurned till 14:00
If they did go into liquidation, this would be the revised table...
1 Chelsea 24 +39 55
2 Man Utd 23 +33 50
3 Liverpool 24 +19 44
4 Arsenal 23 +24 43
5 Spurs 24 +19 40
6 Man City 22 +12 38
7 Aston V 23 +11 38
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Redknapp might have suggested the players, but ultimately Storrie will have sanctioned the deals, and I imagine he would have been the one who saw the wider picture and should have known better.
Surely HR has to take some responsibility for the dire state Pompey are in.
Ever since what happened at Leeds when DOL and Ridsdale bought players for ridiculous sums and wages, every manager and chairman should have been wary.
I think the way 'Arry involves himself in transfer deals, especially the financial side means he should have been aware, or at least been cautious when doing the deals he did. At best he turned a blind eye to whether Pompey could afford the players or not.
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Fingers crossed
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Case adjurned till 14:00
HMRC Lawyer - "There's no way we're withdrawing the Winding Up Petition"
Pompey Lawyer - "Well, can we at least get some lunch expenses out of this?"
HMRC Lawyer - "Fine by me"
Judge - "Case adjourned until 2 pm"
.....seriously though, I sense an Administration Order is in the works
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Redknapp might have suggested the players, but ultimately Storrie will have sanctioned the deals, and I imagine he would have been the one who saw the wider picture and should have known better.
Surely HR has to take some responsibility for the dire state Pompey are in.
Ever since what happened at Leeds when DOL and Ridsdale bought players for ridiculous sums and wages, every manager and chairman should have been wary.
I think the way 'Arry involves himself in transfer deals, especially the financial side means he should have been aware, or at least been cautious when doing the deals he did. At best he turned a blind eye to whether Pompey could afford the players or not.
According to Wiki, which isn't always wrong, Storrie was recommended to Pompey by 'arry.
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Redknapp might have suggested the players, but ultimately Storrie will have sanctioned the deals, and I imagine he would have been the one who saw the wider picture and should have known better.
Surely HR has to take some responsibility for the dire state Pompey are in.
Ever since what happened at Leeds when DOL and Ridsdale bought players for ridiculous sums and wages, every manager and chairman should have been wary.
I think the way 'Arry involves himself in transfer deals, especially the financial side means he should have been aware, or at least been cautious when doing the deals he did. At best he turned a blind eye to whether Pompey could afford the players or not.
Storrie is responsible for the money spent and finances behind it, 'arry is responsible for the players being naff and most having bugger all re-sale value.
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Maybe they could raffle off that fucking bell to raise some cash?
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Maybe they could raffle off that fucking bell to raise some cash?
SFX: Sound of away supporters all round the country digging deep
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I take it they won't be building that fantastic, state of the art, new stadium in the coming weeks?
It's a shame they're not closer to Brum, they could have merged with the Rags to make a proper club.
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Apparently the Chester game was called off initially because the club could not find £675 to pay for the coach to take the players to the game.
The players fucked off home, and when club directors went to find them to take them in their own cars they could only rustle up eight!
This is from a Chester fan so may not be entirely true mind.
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It's a shame they're not closer to Brum, they could have merged with the Rags to make a proper club.
Don't you mean a completely and utterly hopeless club?
Actually, no - the shite manage to do that all on their own!
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Redknapp might have suggested the players, but ultimately Storrie will have sanctioned the deals, and I imagine he would have been the one who saw the wider picture and should have known better.
Surely HR has to take some responsibility for the dire state Pompey are in.
Ever since what happened at Leeds when DOL and Ridsdale bought players for ridiculous sums and wages, every manager and chairman should have been wary.
I think the way 'Arry involves himself in transfer deals, especially the financial side means he should have been aware, or at least been cautious when doing the deals he did. At best he turned a blind eye to whether Pompey could afford the players or not.
Storrie is responsible for the money spent and finances behind it, 'arry is responsible for the players being naff and most having bugger all re-sale value.
Storrie and Arry are linked way back when tehy were at West Ham it is inconcievable to think thaat Arry knew nothing of the risks taken.
MON tells us often enough he would not risk the future of the club, the wages they were paying Campbell, James, Diarra, Defoe it was obvious they were well over stretched and Arry would have known that too.
Otherwise why are Arry and Storrie battling the same IR case ?
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Redknapp might have suggested the players, but ultimately Storrie will have sanctioned the deals, and I imagine he would have been the one who saw the wider picture and should have known better.
Surely HR has to take some responsibility for the dire state Pompey are in.
Ever since what happened at Leeds when DOL and Ridsdale bought players for ridiculous sums and wages, every manager and chairman should have been wary.
I think the way 'Arry involves himself in transfer deals, especially the financial side means he should have been aware, or at least been cautious when doing the deals he did. At best he turned a blind eye to whether Pompey could afford the players or not.
Storrie is responsible for the money spent and finances behind it, 'arry is responsible for the players being naff and most having bugger all re-sale value.
Storrie and Arry are linked way back when tehy were at West Ham it is inconcievable to think thaat Arry knew nothing of the risks taken.
MON tells us often enough he would not risk the future of the club, the wages they were paying Campbell, James, Diarra, Defoe it was obvious they were well over stretched and Arry would have known that too.
Otherwise why are Arry and Storrie battling the same IR case ?
Nobody suggested Harry knew nothing about it, the suggestion was that in the role he has, surely Storrie would have the ultimate last say?
Off on a tangent, isn't (or wasn't) he also the highest paid chief exec in the PL? More than Gill and the chap at Chelsea even
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'arry, if you can believe a single word that comes out of his melting gob, said RVN's wages were too high for Spurs. To me, that means he wanted him, but the club wouldn't sanction it. Difference being at Portsmouth they probably would have.
That's the difference between a relatively well run and solvent club and Pompey, despite having the same manager.
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Nobody suggested Harry knew nothing about it, the suggestion was that in the role he has, surely Storrie would have the ultimate last say?
Off on a tangent, isn't (or wasn't) he also the highest paid chief exec in the PL? More than Gill and the chap at Chelsea even
both equally to blame and sensible rational manager knew what was likely to happen, and Arry does not play dumb when it comes to that. Otherwise why at Spurs is it clear he has no financial input at all, Levy does it all, why, because more than likely he does not trust him with money.
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HMRC has insisted in court that Portsmouth is insolvement and they want a liquidation or that any adjournment (of said liquidation) should be very short.
I think that means administration the best Portsmouth FC can hope for.
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HMRC has insisted in court that Portsmouth is insolvement and they want a liquidation or that any adjournment (of said liquidation) should be very short.
I think that means administration the best Portsmouth FC can hope for.
I never thought we would see them go totally bust but if the HMRC are saying this I doubt it is often they get rejected. Pompey have never wanted to go into admin because it would totally open their books up and then we would see just how criminal the whole operation was, even now that option appears to be resisted.
Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be, but the PL was told 10 months ago that Gaydamek was still in charge and the raft of Israel lawyers and corrupt accountants at the club only emphasied this.
This will cause massive problems for the PL and Scudamore in particular as now it should mean all clubs funding should be open to scruntiny. The result should be that no club should be owned where the ownership or fiunding is anyway in doubt.
It will not of course.
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
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They've got a 7 day adjournment. Well done to them.
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
that is more fool them.
At Villa we know where exactly the money is coming from and how it was gained.
At Pompey Gaydamk's dad was wanted for Arms dealings and even though he claimed not to be funded from his dad there was no proof of independent income.
They enjoyed the cup win with players the fans, manager and owners knew they could not afford, this is the price they have to pay for that.
this will open up the PL clubs to even greater scrunity and you wonder about the funding arrangements at other clubs notably Blues.
It is something the PL can not ignore.
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It is something the PL can not ignore.
Yes they can.
And sadly I fear they will!
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They've got a 7 day adjournment. Well done to them.
why ? they are insolvent, they have only funded wages with loans, that is the same as you paying the mortgage with credit cards
it only extends the inevitable last asset stripping to the Gaydamek's.
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It is something the PL can not ignore.
Yes they can.
And sadly I fear they will!
of course they will, they will bury their heads in the sand as to where the money comes from, all that matters is image to them.
Never mind that somehow the most profitable and debt free club in the world now owes £700m and yet they have not spent large sums.
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
I bet the test is as tricky as this:
Complete the following sequence - 1, 2, 3, 4, ?
Congratulations, you've been classed fit and proper to run a football club!
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
that is more fool them.
As I've said before, to quote a Supporters Direct high-up, "I've been to many meetings where someone's come along with plans for a ground holding three times the current average gate and announced that in five years time the club will be doing well two divisions higher. And they're always believed."
Everyone thinks their club could be bigger and better.
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
well I think Balram Chainrai is a very naughty boy.
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
well I think Balram Chainrai is a very naughty boy.
Fucking hell.
Sounds like the name of a haulage company, or an exotically named porn star.
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
I bet the test is as tricky as this:
Complete the following sequence - 1, 2, 3, 4, ?
Congratulations, you've been classed fit and proper to run a football club!
I bet Sullivan struggles with that one.
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Would anyone take a FA Cup win only to be followed by a Portsmouth/Leeds collapse versus 10 years of mid-table finishes...
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Would anyone take a FA Cup win only to be followed by a Portsmouth/Leeds collapse versus 10 years of mid-table finishes...
not me, I want to support a solvent club with a future, not temporary 'glory'
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Would anyone take a FA Cup win only to be followed by a Portsmouth/Leeds collapse versus 10 years of mid-table finishes...
I wouldn't.
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
I bet the test is as tricky as this:
Complete the following sequence - 1, 2, 3, 4, ?
Congratulations, you've been classed fit and proper to run a football club!
I bet Sullivan struggles with that one.
`Since we bought the club we've been having a look at this sequence of numbers and they are frightening. I mean, unless the council gives us use of the number nine, ten, or eleven, then it's armageddon'
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
I bet the test is as tricky as this:
Complete the following sequence - 1, 2, 3, 4, ?
Congratulations, you've been classed fit and proper to run a football club!
I bet Sullivan struggles with that one.
Sullivan would answer 3, as it would obviously need to take a 25% reduction.
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What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
Portsmouth fans had a meeting with the PL on this and Scudamore said that they do not intervene with how a club is funded, just whether the person owning it is
real
no recent convinctions (ones before 2002 do not count)
thats it
no financial scruntiny which is why Yeung was able to take over Blues where the source of funding is very obscure as it is clear Yeung himself does not have the cash.
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Would anyone take a FA Cup win only to be followed by a Portsmouth/Leeds collapse versus 10 years of mid-table finishes...
By chance are you related to a certain Mr Ellis? :)
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What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
Portsmouth fans had a meeting with the PL on this and Scudamore said that they do not intervene with how a club is funded, just whether the person owning it is
real
no recent convinctions (ones before 2002 do not count)
thats it
no financial scruntiny which is why Yeung was able to take over Blues where the source of funding is very obscure as it is clear Yeung himself does not have the cash.
Might as well let Peter Sutcliffe put a bid in then.
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What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
Portsmouth fans had a meeting with the PL on this and Scudamore said that they do not intervene with how a club is funded, just whether the person owning it is
real
no recent convinctions (ones before 2002 do not count)
thats it
no financial scruntiny which is why Yeung was able to take over Blues where the source of funding is very obscure as it is clear Yeung himself does not have the cash.
Might as well let Peter Sutcliffe put a bid in then.
Let him help at West Ham.
He'll soon reduce the staff numbers, allbeit on the female side.
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What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
Portsmouth fans had a meeting with the PL on this and Scudamore said that they do not intervene with how a club is funded, just whether the person owning it is
real
no recent convinctions (ones before 2002 do not count)
thats it
no financial scruntiny which is why Yeung was able to take over Blues where the source of funding is very obscure as it is clear Yeung himself does not have the cash.
Might as well let Peter Sutcliffe put a bid in then.
Let him help at West Ham.
He'll soon reduce the staff numbers, allbeit on the female side.
He is a big fan of hammers
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Not big, not clever.
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What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
Portsmouth fans had a meeting with the PL on this and Scudamore said that they do not intervene with how a club is funded, just whether the person owning it is
real
no recent convinctions (ones before 2002 do not count)
thats it
no financial scruntiny which is why Yeung was able to take over Blues where the source of funding is very obscure as it is clear Yeung himself does not have the cash.
Might as well let Peter Sutcliffe put a bid in then.
Let him help at West Ham.
He'll soon reduce the staff numbers, allbeit on the female side.
He is a big fan of hammers
And the Blades
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Final warning.
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From what I understand there is no chance of administration or liquidation, pompey have 7 days to pay the 11.5 million bill or they are wound up!
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From what I understand there is no chance of administration or liquidation, pompey have 7 days to pay the 11.5 million bill or they are wound up!
I don't understand this.
Surely the tax-man would be better taking half of what's owed, which I understand is what Pompey offerred, and keeping the club going to get the rest at a later date.
If they are wound up, does this not mean the IR and all other creditors will only X pence in the pound?
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From what I understand there is no chance of administration or liquidation, pompey have 7 days to pay the 11.5 million bill or they are wound up!
But really - do you expect that to happen?
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From the Beeb:
Court registrar Christine Derrett said she feared the company would continue to trade and build up more debts that would not be paid.
"I am very concerned about the financial status of this company," she said. "It seems to me there's a very real risk that this company is undoubtedly trading while it is insolvent.
"I'm obviously conscious that, by making a winding-up order, it would have very severe consequences not only for the company as a business but for the supporters themselves, but that's not a consideration that I strictly take into account."
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If they are wound up, does this not mean the IR and all other creditors will only X pence in the pound?
They should pay off their creditors with players.
So Aruna Dinane, for example, might be seized by the HMRC and put to work in the offices.
David James could be used to do the voiceovers on those tax return ads, thus removing the need to pay Moira Stuart (or even worse, that Adam Doublebarrel-Name bloke they used to use) to do them, thereby representing savings for the tax payers.
I don't know if they could use John Utaka for much, though.
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I am working on all the Pompey fans round here to try to get them to convert to the Villa should the club vanish into thin air. Sign up and you get one of my many old scarves, a copy of H and V from somewhere between about 1992 and now, a free programme from roughly the same period and access to a choice library of Villa-related books, including many by our very own SP and DW...
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Pompey fans have to look at this and wonder how this state came to be.
Football supporters always believe the new owner/chairman is the Messiah.
What on earth is the Premier League's "Fit and Proper Person" test? Surely it should be the first line of defence against things like this happening?
I bet the test is as tricky as this:
Complete the following sequence - 1, 2, 3, 4, ?
Congratulations, you've been classed fit and proper to run a football club!
This is the problem Harry though, innit.
1, 2, 3, 4...5 for the chairman, 6 in a brown paper bag, 7 for me....
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Can the owner/owners/imaginary people that supposedly run the place, shred all the evidence in 7 days?
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I am working on all the Pompey fans round here to try to get them to convert to the Villa should the club vanish into thin air. Sign up and you get one of my many old scarves, a copy of H and V from somewhere between about 1992 and now, a free programme from roughly the same period and access to a choice library of Villa-related books, including many by our very own SP and DW...
they can keep the bell ringer though!
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I am working on all the Pompey fans round here to try to get them to convert to the Villa should the club vanish into thin air. Sign up and you get one of my many old scarves, a copy of H and V from somewhere between about 1992 and now, a free programme from roughly the same period and access to a choice library of Villa-related books, including many by our very own SP and DW...
they can keep the bell ringer though!
Oh I don't know. Reckon he would go nicely up the top of the Holte with his drummers, banging out 'Holte Army' incessantly throughout a game. As long as I am sitting in the North Stand mind you...
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From what I understand there is no chance of administration or liquidation, pompey have 7 days to pay the 11.5 million bill or they are wound up!
I don't understand this.
Surely the tax-man would be better taking half of what's owed, which I understand is what Pompey offerred, and keeping the club going to get the rest at a later date.
If they are wound up, does this not mean the IR and all other creditors will only X pence in the pound?
Why should HMRC (acting on behalf of us, the tax payers) allow a company to use our money to fund itself ?
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From what I understand there is no chance of administration or liquidation, pompey have 7 days to pay the 11.5 million bill or they are wound up!
I don't understand this.
Surely the tax-man would be better taking half of what's owed, which I understand is what Pompey offerred, and keeping the club going to get the rest at a later date.
If they are wound up, does this not mean the IR and all other creditors will only X pence in the pound?
Why should HMRC (acting on behalf of us, the tax payers) allow a company to use our money to fund itself ?
I'm not suggesting they should.
What I am saying, should my understanding be right, is that we would get more of our tax money by taking 50% now and having an ongoing business to pay more later. Better that than seeing them wound up and getting Xp in the pound, which would presumably be less than the 50% of the sum owed they are offering.
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From what I understand there is no chance of administration or liquidation, pompey have 7 days to pay the 11.5 million bill or they are wound up!
I don't understand this.
Surely the tax-man would be better taking half of what's owed, which I understand is what Pompey offerred, and keeping the club going to get the rest at a later date.
If they are wound up, does this not mean the IR and all other creditors will only X pence in the pound?
Why should HMRC (acting on behalf of us, the tax payers) allow a company to use our money to fund itself ?
Obviously Pompey would have to pay interest on the late payment, plus HMRC could put themselves at head of the queue for future payments.
There's only one club I'd like to see shut down - and it ain't Pompey.
On second thoughts, do we really want the knuckledraggers supporting us.
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Why should HMRC (acting on behalf of us, the tax payers) allow a company to use our money to fund itself ?
this has all been caused by football on insisting football debts get paid first.
Totally understandable as some clubs would really take advantage. However HMRC in any petition is always the preferred creditor and when the PL witheld TV money they saw it as their (and our ) money.
The HMRC is taking a tougher stance on clubs and rightly so and clubs have to get the wages down, no other choice.
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I am working on all the Pompey fans round here to try to get them to convert to the Villa should the club vanish into thin air. Sign up and you get one of my many old scarves, a copy of H and V from somewhere between about 1992 and now, a free programme from roughly the same period and access to a choice library of Villa-related books, including many by our very own SP and DW...
they can keep the bell ringer though!
Oh I don't know. Reckon he would go nicely up the top of the Holte with his drummers, banging out 'Holte Army' incessantly throughout a game. As long as I am sitting in the North Stand mind you...
He's recording a cover of the old Shampoo hit as part of the Save Pompey appeal:
Uh-Oh, We're In Trouble, Something's Come Along And It's Burst Our Bubble
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On the basis of fairness they should be wound up. The argument that HMRC could get more in the long run by accepting less now is flawed as it would encourage other companies to keep doing the same. There has to be a line where you say enough is enough and close someone down.
On an emotional basis, I think it is awful that any football fan should face the extinction of their club.
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Agreed, LeeS. As much as I feel terrible for the Portsmouth fans (not to mention it hurting us, we'll lose points, Liverpool won't), the club needs to be shut down. Football needs to be put back under control, the FA seem unwilling to do anything about it, HRMC aren't pulling any punches. Good.
I expect the football-creditors rule to be challenged, too, and rightfully so. Football clubs should be held to account like any other business, as much as it'll hurt some blameless fans in the short term, I think it's best for football that clubs are shown that they can't continue like this.
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Livershite are jammy fookers If that happens.. They have always been fookin lucky.. wankers..
;-s
UTV
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Portsmouth, Cardiff City and Southend United all facing Winding Up orders today.
Reported on BBC - Cardiff also got a stay of execution at the High Court today - their Chairman and Chief Executive, Peter Ridsdale, was in court to hear the verdict.
Now where have I heard that name before in connection with a football club going tits up........?
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I think the biggest problem here is one of precedent - if they allow or force Pompey to go to the wall (any other business would) then they have to have the same rules even if next in line is someone like the red filth.
Once a top flight club gets pulled the fall out will be huge and there will be clubs like Stockport / Cardiff / Chester / Palace will follow suit - it only ever needed one law suit to fall in favour of the creditor and it will be like dominoes
I am not sure how a certain shyster cockney barrow boy can sleep at night though all this as surely his insistance on buying unheard of players from abroad on huge salaries has not helped.
Although they may have chased the FA cup dream a few years ago just like when the banks f***ed it up and we all suffered - the loyal, timeserved fans who pay their money get shafted
Could you imagine if it was us - what the hell would fill the void? Would you support someone else - does not even bare comprehension
Really feel sorry for the true Pompey fans
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Be interesting If Pompey win the FA cup again and get wound up.
Going back to Livershite , it will be worth about 20 million to the red shite If Pompey get wound up, lets hope they dont..
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Haven't Lens said Dindane's gone to Pompey full time now and they expect to be paid the full 4m which was the agreed transfer fee.
That could be a problem.
Pompey weren't happy with Begovic going to Stoke either as they'd have rather traded with Spurs as they still owe them money for transfers.
Such a mess.
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Haven't Lens said Dindane's gone to Pompey full time now and they expect to be paid the full 4m which was the agreed transfer fee.
That could be a problem.
Pompey weren't happy with Begovic going to Stoke either as they'd have rather traded with Spurs as they still owe them money for transfers.
Such a mess.
I think Dindane issue the last of their problems, if they go bust!
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Portsmouth, Cardiff City and Southend United all facing Winding Up orders today.
Reported on BBC - Cardiff also got a stay of execution at the High Court today - their Chairman and Chief Executive, Peter Ridsdale, was in court to hear the verdict.
Now where have I heard that name before in connection with a football club going tits up........?
I thought Cardiff had some big money man investing in them?
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Portsmouth, Cardiff City and Southend United all facing Winding Up orders today.
Reported on BBC - Cardiff also got a stay of execution at the High Court today - their Chairman and Chief Executive, Peter Ridsdale, was in court to hear the verdict.
Now where have I heard that name before in connection with a football club going tits up........?
I thought Cardiff had some big money man investing in them?
Apparently they've got a couple of potential investors but had to sell some land to raise funds (£1m) to hold HMRC at bay for 28 days
edit:spelling
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Portsmouth, Cardiff City and Southend United all facing Winding Up orders today.
Reported on BBC - Cardiff also got a stay of execution at the High Court today - their Chairman and Chief Executive, Peter Ridsdale, was in court to hear the verdict.
Now where have I heard that name before in connection with a football club going tits up........?
I thought Cardiff had some big money man investing in them?
Apparently they've got a couple of potential investors but had to sell some land to raise funds (£1m) to hold HMRC at bay for 28 days
It would appear most of their problems point back to Sam Hammam rather than Ridsdale, who appears to be doing a decent job there, despite their current situation.
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I think Cardiff owe Hammam a shed load of money and Ridsdale's holding company has gone bust.
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I think Cardiff owe Hammam a shed load of money and Ridsdale's holding company has gone bust.
Rumour from the High Court earlier in the year was that a company of Hammam loaned Ridsdale the money to pay Hammam. Hamman then tried to call in the debt.
Also he apparently stung them at the last minute when closing the original deal, asking for an extra 500k for himself and 90k for his brother. He basically had them over a barrel and they had to pay up.
I guess Hammam wanted to get back in with the Cardiff Soul Crew, now that West Ham look likely to drop and the ICF will be visiting. He really is a twat.
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Apologies if mentioned elsewhere and I did look but couldn't find it but we will lose 3 points if Pompey are wound up. Spurs would also lose 3 and Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea all lose 6. Liverpool due to their inept performance at Fratton park stand to gain the most as they would lose nothing putting them in line for 3rd never mind 4th.
This could happen and is very concerning.
Link below.
http://football365.com/story/0,17033,8742_5934938,00.html
Edit. Chelsea would only lose 3, but that matters little to us unfortunately.
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Cant see it happening but it would be just like the mousers or toon to fall
into their laps. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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The other thing is what happens to their players? I guess they'd all become free agents?
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The other thing is what happens to their players? I guess they'd all become free agents?
Possibly. There is a thread about clubs in trouble, I just didn't find any talk of the points being taken off us and others so I was trying to put that across more than anything, though it is a valid point.
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If it did happen, I don't think we come out of it too badly. As stated, teams around would lose 6pts where we lose 3 - it would certainly make it a bit closer for the 'chasing pack'.
It gets interesting if any players received a red or 5th yellow card in a match against Pompey, and were subsequently banned for an important fixture. Could be allsorts of appeals and ensuing mayhem!!!
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I hope they stay afloat. They're a bit of a scummy club, kind of like Small-Heath-on-Sea, but I wouldn't want to see any club go out of business.
Well, almost any club.
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I wouldn't get worked up over this.
Think Middlesboro, isn't their real trading name Middlesboro 1991 or something?
So, assume Portsmouth get a winding up order or are forced into administration, in a week or two they'll be Portsmouth 2010 with the same players, same ground, same everything except nil creditors. Their fixtures for the season will be fulfilled.
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I wouldn't get worked up over this.
Think Middlesboro, isn't their real trading name Middlesboro 1991 or something?
So, assume Portsmouth get a winding up order or are forced into administration, in a week or two they'll be Portsmouth 2010 with the same players, same ground, same everything except nil creditors. Their fixtures for the season will be fulfilled.
Administration - company is sold and starts again under a different name. Winding up - no more company.
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If it happens, it happens. There isnt a fairer way to sort out the situation.
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I can't see them winding up but a god chance of administration, looks like fat harry jumped ship at the right time just like southampton,at least mon has been a success a d left behind a solid club when he's left others unlike the redknapp chap!
One thing he does have though on
most managers is probAbly the hottest daughter in law , can't deny him that honour!
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I can't see them winding up but a god chance of administration, looks like fat harry jumped ship at the right time just like southampton,at least mon has been a success a d left behind a solid club when he's left others unlike the redknapp chap!
One thing he does have though on
most managers is probAbly the hottest daughter in law , can't deny him that honour!
She gonna become available soon when Redknap jr turns into his old man!
Lucky Eddie waiting in the wings [rubs thighs Vic Reeves stylie]
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I can't see them winding up but a god chance of administration, looks like fat harry jumped ship at the right time just like southampton!
Spot the common denominator........
Saggy Face has a lot to answer for
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I can't see them winding up but a god chance of administration, looks like fat harry jumped ship at the right time just like southampton!
Spot the common denominator........
Saggy Face has a lot to answer for
Bournemouth and West Ham also ran into problems after the benefit of his management, here's hoping with Spurs.
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Apologies if mentioned elsewhere and I did look but couldn't find it but we will lose 3 points if Pompey are wound up. Spurs would also lose 3 and Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea all lose 6. Liverpool due to their inept performance at Fratton park stand to gain the most as they would lose nothing putting them in line for 3rd never mind 4th.
Always the ssame, when a club goes bust and their record is expunged the teams that gain the most are those who were too shit to beat them!
Same with Tamworth, if (when) Chester go under we lose six points and drop four places. Luton close to within a couple of points of Stevenage at the top.
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The Premier League hierarchy won't want the embarrassment of one of their number going into administration/liquidation.
I expect that by hook or by crook, or by advancing TV monies due, etc, Pompey will get through this season, be relegated, go into administration on 1st June and start next season in The Championship with whatever punitive points deduction that The Football League have in place.
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The Premier League hierarchy won't want the embarrassment of one of their number going into administration/liquidation.
I expect that by hook or by crook, or by advancing TV monies due, etc, Pompey will get through this season, be relegated, go into administration on 1st June and start next season in The Championship with whatever punitive points deduction that The Football League have in place.
There's talk of advancing their parachute payment (£11m) to see them through the season. The other 19 clubs have to agree.
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/11/portsmouth-avram-grant-fa-tax)
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I read somewhere earlier that if Pompey going into administration they will be deducted 9 points, whereas teams in the Fizzy Pop leagues get deducted 10.
It's a minor point I know, but strange all the same.
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I think it has something to do with the ratio of overall games they play.
ie.
24 teams = 46 games
20 teams = 38 games
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If they go into administration they will lose 9 points the following season when they are in the Championship they will lose another load of points (think it is 15) for how they come out of administration.
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They could do with drawing this game and getting a moneyspinning replay.
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reading into the Notts County saga shows just how much more football has to do to check owners
He claims he was hoodwinked by father and son Nathan and Peter Willett and Russell King, the men who made up Munto, the "acquisition vehicle" formed to buy County.
Trembling says he has ploughed half a million of his own money into the club and feels "bitter" about the last six months.
The trio claimed they had links to the Bahrain royal family and gave a guarantee they would invest a minimum of £5m in the club but instead put in just £50,000, he insists.
they should have several tests
1) max level of debt any club can have, probably % of turnover, would not stop for example the Man city takeover as the owner turned his injection of cash into shares
2) any new owner to put in a substantial deposit showing their intent, if they promse no cash injections then a smaller deposit
3) no club to be held by offshore companies where they can not be fully investigated
4) any club late with submitted accounts to be deducted points.
5) a fans rep at board level to be voted for by the fans. The rep should be responsible for updating the fans on a regular occasion.
of course pie in the sky
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A wage cap would help.
What's going to happen if the next round of TV bidding isn't quite so lucrative?
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I know it's not very charitable but once this season's over and we have our points in the bag, I don't give a crap what happens to Pompey.
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A wage cap would help.
What's going to happen if the next round of TV bidding isn't quite so lucrative?
how would a wage cap help, those with larger revenues will be able to pay more
the key is the level of debt, if you have an owner prepared to put in large amounts and not load the debt on the club, no problem, the security of the club first.
What would happen if Roman stopped funding Chelsea today, they would soon be in administration
what would happen if Randy did the same to Villa, think we would be OK.
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A wage cap would help.
What's going to happen if the next round of TV bidding isn't quite so lucrative?
how would a wage cap help, those with larger revenues will be able to pay more
the key is the level of debt, if you have an owner prepared to put in large amounts and not load the debt on the club, no problem, the security of the club first.
What would happen if Roman stopped funding Chelsea today, they would soon be in administration
what would happen if Randy did the same to Villa, think we would be OK.
then it woukd not be a wage cap-duh
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then it woukd not be a wage cap-duh
say you set base level, what would it be at ? £40m ?
say you set a % figure ?
wage cap in football can not work because the difference between rich and poor is far greater than any other sport
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Good interview with Sven in the Guardian
Sven-Goran Eriksson revealed for the first time the full story behind his chaotic seven months at Notts County and the bizarre sequence of events that began with hopes of a multi-million-pound revival for the Football League's oldest club only to end with it on the brink of financial collapse.
Twenty-four hours after cutting his ties with the League Two club that has been his employer for the past seven months Eriksson opened his heart to the Guardian. In a candid interview the former England manager has laid bare:
• How he was promised the players and facilities to guarantee Premier League football
• How he entered negotiations to help run North Korea's national team
• The circumstances behind the England defender Sol Campbell's abrupt departure from Meadow Lane
• When he had his first doubts about Munto Finance, the club's offshore- registered parent company
• His anger at the vanishing act that left the club with vast debts and the threat of winding up
The strangest experience of Eriksson's football career began last June when he received the first contact from Russell King and Nathan Willett, two former Jersey-based financiers who claimed to be representing a wealthy consortium of investors from the Middle East and Europe, via a third party. They met at the Dorchester Hotel, where King was a regular resident, and gave a "very clever, very convincing" pitch to Eriksson about moving to Notts County.
"I met these two guys and they were very enthusiastic about what they said," Eriksson said. "They had already bought the club and they wanted to take it to the Premier League. There were a lot of promises about players, about the training ground, the academy; they said they would fix the stadium, that they would buy feeder clubs."
After initial reservations about joining a struggling club in English football's fourth tier Eriksson was persuaded by the prospect of taking the world's oldest league club to the top of the football pyramid and promptly signed up. "I liked the idea of the project, the challenge to do it. It was like a dream to me. And if all their promises had been true, we would have done it."
Soon King's and Willett's promises were backed up by the arrivals of Kasper Schmeichel and Sol Campbell, fresh from contracts with the Premier League clubs Manchester City and Portsmouth, deals that were also negotiated by King and Willett.
"I had no doubts about it in the beginning," he explained. Eriksson's faith in his employers was not shaken even when Campbell quit the club after a single game. Nevertheless, the circumstances of Campbell's departure were consistent with the surreal nature of events at Meadow Lane.
"He played that game away [at Morecambe] and asked the manager if he could go to stay for two days in Newcastle," said Eriksson. "He got permission and left on Saturday evening. Then he called [the chairman] Peter Trembling. Peter called me the next morning and said Sol wants to leave. I called Sol and said could we meet when he came back. We had an agreement to meet after training on Tuesday.
"He started training and in the middle of training he went. I don't know if he told the manager he had some small problems. I thought that after training we would have a meeting but when I came back he was gone. He knew the conditions at the club, I'd shown him the ground and the training ground. Of course there were promises from Willett and King that we would fix it, that they would make the stadium and dressing rooms better and everything. But nothing happened and Sol was concerned about that. We have never spoken since but I guess he felt cheated by them too."
Eriksson says he was still being sold the grand vision of the club, not least by Nathan Willett's father, Peter, who had joined the Notts County board. Eriksson said he believed Peter Willett was the actual owner. "He came a couple of times and said he would fix the stadium and would make the training ground better and then he suddenly disappeared. He never came back."
But still Eriksson was living a life more suited to the director of football of a Champions League club than one in the lowest division of the Football League. Indeed, some elements of the project were truly unique.
"I went on 19 October to North Korea, together with Russell King and Nathan Willett," he said. "When I went home from there I started to have doubts because of what I saw in that country and what happened after that."
They were accompanied by a member of the Hyat family, which the club had stated has "extensive business interests" across the Middle East and Asia; Eriksson says this man was projected as the "big guy" behind the investment in County. However the Guardian later tracked down Anwar Shafi, the acknowledged head of the Hyat family, who disavowed his relative's claims.
"They cheated," Eriksson said. "I was invited there to talk football and I met the president of the Football Association there, coaches of the national team, I saw games and the training and I had a lot of meetings.
"They wanted help with a lot of things. They wanted footballs and boots and coaches and for us to take care of teams in North Korea. They wanted the team to come to Europe and they wanted help with the scouting and help with friendly games, analysing opponents, etc.
"Of course this would have cost money and they [King, Peter Willett and their associates] said everything was OK. When we came home the days went on and I contacted Nathan Willett and I said I needed a contact number for the people in Korea to start to do it. So I prepared places in Europe for them to take their teams for six months and we contacted sponsors to help out about everything.
"But I never could contact anyone in Korea and nothing happened. And I felt sorry for them because I'd promised on behalf of these guys and I never could contact them so I wondered what was going on."
While the party was in Pyongyang, Willett and King and their colleagues went to meet officials at the ceremonial Mansudae Assembly hall. "I was there for football and they went to visit people at the palace," he said. "I saw them handing out share certificates in Swiss Commodity Holding [the company whose corporate logo was incorporated into Notts County's club crest] to people. These were not for millions but billions. I tried to joke: why don't you put some of that into Notts County? And they said, 'Take it easy, Sven, you'll have your players and you'll go to the Premier League.'"
But when it emerged that the club was running up huge debts as bills went unpaid, with the taxman even issuing a winding-up order in November, Eriksson's perspective began to change. "Then the club had problems with money, bills not being paid. So, of course, I started to be doubtful and they never paid me what they promised," said Eriksson. "In my initial contract I was promised 10% of the club but I never received anything."
Eriksson has been hit in the pocket by this experience. Though he refused to go into details of his financial arrangements club sources say that inagreeing to leave Meadow Lane after the takeover by a consortium led by the former Lincoln City chairman, Ray Trew, on Thursday, he has waived a £2.4m pay-off, accepting instead two months' wage arrears. Trew, now County's chairman, has described the Swede as an "absolute gentleman".
"I signed the agreement to leave because there was never a question I should stay here," said Eriksson. "I told the players and staff today and the people in the office: that's it."
Eriksson accepts that his decision to place his faith in King and the Willetts might have damaged his reputation. "I don't know if it's affected me like that," he said. "All I can say is I've gone in with open eyes and I liked it and it went wrong. Maybe I should have had suspicions but I didn't have that in the beginning."
At the height of the roller coaster Eriksson did not want to hear others' suspicions about Munto. When I confronted him on the issue at the Leaders in Football conference early last October, Eriksson appeared irritated, referring me to Trembling without hearing me out. But County's crash has been so alarming, the gap between what Willett and King said and reality so wide, that now Eriksson feels compelled to break football's omerta and tell one of the most extraordinary stories that has befallen the game in decades.
"Sometimes things go wrong in football," said Eriksson. "You can lose games, own-goals, you can buy the wrong players. But you do it in the right spirit and you do it honestly. That is not how it went wrong at Notts County. If you are not trying to cheat people, it is very easy to come out and say that it went wrong. People will not like it but they will understand. But when they disappear like that: it's morally very, very bad. This is why I am talking about it.
"I did feel personal responsibility. I know some of the players wouldn't be there if I was not, of course I feel that. I feel very sorry for the players and the fans. I tried as hard as I could to find people who could help us, I've been to Norway, to Sweden, to Spain, to London many, many times to find investment.
"But what's disappointing about these people is that they just disappeared without saying anything. Without any message to the players, to the fans, to the staff. Just gone."
Now Eriksson will look to rebuild his career, putting the experience of the past eight months behind him. A man with league titles in Sweden, Portugal and Italy and two World Cup quarter-finals on his resumé will not want for work and he has been inundated with calls from agents, although he has received no formal offers.
So when all is said and done and he looks back on the past eight months, what has he learnt from the experience? "Maybe I trust people too much."
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/12/sven-goran-eriksson-notts-county-interview)
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and surely that tells you all you need to know when clubs are allowed to be owned by secretive off shore companies.
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then it woukd not be a wage cap-duh
say you set base level, what would it be at ? £40m ?
say you set a % figure ?
wage cap in football can not work because the difference between rich and poor is far greater than any other sport
of course it would work limit the squads to say 20 first team playersand say in 5 years your salary cap is whatever.
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Shouldn't we have had three new different owners at Portsmouth by now. I'm disappointed.
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Portsmouth are to reveal the state of their finances by 4 o'clock or something today.
Anyone care to make a guess at what they think they'll be?
Is £100m too small?
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I think the dollar figure involved is only a small part of that story. Who owns them, who has owned them, who controls them, who they owe money to, where did the money go.....I do wonder if 'appy 'arry is getting a little more twitchy than normal.
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I heard that there is a program on 5Live some time this week specifically about the ridiculous situation some clubs are in at the moment. Annoyingly I can't remember who will be hosting it or when exactly it's on (i think its this weekend), but I remember hearing that Robert Peston was to be one of the guests and I thought it might be interesting. Does anyone know?
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Portsmouth are to reveal the state of their finances by 4 o'clock or something today.
Anyone care to make a guess at what they think they'll be?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4365208640_45f60280a4_o.jpg)
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From Soccernet:
DUBAI COURT CHASE AL-FAHIM
Arrest warrant issued for Pompey chairman
By Soccernet staff
February 17, 2010
Dubai authorities have issued an arrest warrant for Portsmouth chairman Sulaiman al-Fahim over an alleged unpaid debt of £1.3 million.
(http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/design05/images/2009/1003/sulaimanal-fahim20091003_275x155.jpg)
Sulaiman Al-Fahim: One of three thousand Ex-Portsmouth owners
The former Pompey owner, who remains a 10% shareholder at the cash-strapped Premier League club, is wanted in court to settle a dispute with a fellow property developer and will be arrested if he returns to the United Arab Emirates.
An investor from Azerbaijan has demanded to be repaid after a development by Al-Fahim's Al Buraq Development and Investment company failed to go ahead.
According to Abu Dhabi newspaper The National, court documents show Al-Fahim has cleared his assets in the UAE and transferred all his local funds to undisclosed overseas locations.
Al-Fahim told The National: "I am not running away from this, I am in Moscow and am actually here as part of an official UAE delegation promoting the chess industry. My lawyers are currently handling the matter and I am positive it will be resolved very soon.
"First let's be clear this is actually a civil case and not a criminal case, and one that has been running for some time."
Al-Fahim bought Pompey from Sacha Gaydamak in August last year but sold the club just 42 days later after failing to raise the necessary investment to meet debt repayments and pay player wages.
Ali Al-Faraj then bought the ailing club form Al-Fahim and has since handed control Balram Chainrai after failing to meet the terms of a loan agreement with the Hong Kong investor.
At the foot of that page is the following ad:
In trouble with the law?
Before you speak to the cops, speak to us! (07) 5527 0020 avail 24/7
www.BamberryLawyers.com.au
Brilliant!
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Just got this in the TIMES ONLINE email thingy that goes some way to summing up Palace's plight.......
Keyan Milanian asks: I have been arguing with a Crystal Palace-supporting friend of mine that Simon Jordan, along with other members of the board, are to blame for the Eagles' current dilemma. He, like other Palace fans I've spoken to, defends him to the hilt. Who is to blame for their plight?
Gary Jacob responds: "As ever in these circumstances, the issues are muddy and all sides blame each other. What is clear, however, is that the club's income shrunk by a third from the financial year June 2007 to June 2008, mainly because their two years of parachute payments ended. Perhaps there was also less sponsorship and ticket income.
"But in the same period, their expenditure hardly dropped, especially on player wages. This is almost certainly because of contracts running on from the Premier League days, and maybe the club chasing promotion by signing players on relatively high wages. I understand the wage bill is closer to £7 million now.
"On top of this, Jordan was forced to take out a new rental agreement for Palace to stay at Selhurst Park, which at £1.2 million per year, was three times what he had been paying.
"Unbelievably, Palace also agreed to pay £2 million simply for this privilege - and they still need to pay £1 million of it in April. What appears to have happened is that Jordan had agreed to buy the ground from Paul Kemsley, who had bought it from Ron Noades with the intention of selling it on to the Palace owner. Kemsley was left unhappy when Jordan could not buy it.
"Their recent plight has come about after Palace got into bed with Agilo, who specialise in lending to distressed companies. Agilo wants £4.5 million in loans repaid. They are a secured creditor, so are near the top of the list when it comes to being paid.
"Agilo were being paid interest but they clearly believed that there was trouble looming as they exercised a clause in their contract to put the club into administration. They probably were unhappy that HM Revenue & Customs had issued a winding-up order for the debt owed to them of £1.3 million.
"Palace have debts of about £30 million, about £20 million of which is owed to Jordan. He is an unsecured creditor, meaning that he is lower in the pecking order.
"Jordan's concern that he could receive a fraction of that amount means that he could choose not to endorse a potential takeover if other creditors are paid higher proportions. That could lead to a further points penalty for the club not exiting administration in accordance with Football League demands."
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I think Palace should let players go to ease their financial worries.
Before they play us in the replay.
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From da Beeb
Cash-strapped Portsmouth are understood to have asked the Premier League for permission to sell players outside the transfer window.
However, BBC sports news correspondent Gordon Farquhar said he believes the transfer window is a Fifa regulation.
"I don't think it's in the gift of the Premier League to allow Portsmouth to sell players outside of it," he added.
When approached by BBC Sport, Portsmouth, who are believed to owe about £60m, refused to comment.
I hate to see it happen, but Pompy are now looking like a lame, blind, deaf donkey with cancer. Time for a mercy killing.
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Keep up - Tony Adams was sacked years ago
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Now a full article on BBC website on Pompey's plight. Sounds worse than anyone feared.
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I for one would be saddened to see Pompey go into liquidation. How do some of the players live with themsleves taking £80,000 a week a letting the club die?
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I for one would be saddened to see Pompey go into liquidation. How do some of the players live with themsleves taking £80,000 a week a letting the club die?
I'm sure the immoral money-grabbing mercenaries have a very hard time looking at themselves in a mirror!
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With out wishing to sound like a bird of prey - swooping down and picking the bones off a hapless victim- if Pompey are able to sell players, Boateng on the cheap might be a decent option.
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Surely they can;t be allowed to sell players out of the transfer window though; I'm sure I heard it had 'slammed shut' some time ago!
Really, it just wouldn't be fair unless everyone benefitted; why should, say, Bolton be allowed to bring in an extra player at this stage of the season when no-one else can?
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Maybe they could sell players on pre-contracts who would still play for them for the rest of the season.
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They could hawk players around Russia, or anywhere still on a winter break, as their transfer window hasn't closed.
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Id have o'hara cheap , If he was their player.. shame he isnt
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I can't see a problem with them being allowed to sell players outside transfer window. It certainly won't help them on the football side, but it might keep the club alive.
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I can't see a problem with them being allowed to sell players outside transfer window. It certainly won't help them on the football side, but it might keep the club alive.
Sure but it may help those clubs that can try and buy their way out of trouble.
Pompey should never be in this situation. The blame must lie at the doors of the Premier League/F.A. for allowing them to be bought by anybody who appears to have the cash.
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That is unfortunate, but in reality there isn't a lot of quality at Pompey that'll help other clubs. Maybe Boateng and James, that is about it.
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I for one would be saddened to see Pompey go into liquidation. How do some of the players live with themsleves taking £80,000 a week a letting the club die?
problem is that they were offered these wages, would you refuse it ?
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Of course you wouldn't, only the most morally superior person would refuse. And there are none of them involved in football.
There's a good piece about all this by Patrick Barclay on the Times website today. I'm not sure I entirely understand it but I think he's basically saying the Premier League should pay Pompey's bills so they can finish this season, recoup the money from what would have been next season's parachute payment and then let them find their correct level in the Football League, which in the short term probably means being relegated a couple of times.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2010/02/patrick-barclay-responds-should-premier-league-save-portsmouth.html
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That is unfortunate, but in reality there isn't a lot of quality at Pompey that'll help other clubs. Maybe Boateng and James, that is about it.
Belhadj has been linked with Barcelona in the last couple of weeks but yeah, that's probably about it.
Isn't James out of contract now as well?
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I am confused why the PL should save them, Pompey got into trouble by a combination of high wages, mis management and lets say some very dodgy practices.
They should have gone into administration by now the only reason is if they opened up the books some people may be in serious trouble.
Just hope that other clubs learn from this and the PL put tougher rules in place, I doubt that.
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I am confused why the PL should save them, Pompey got into trouble by a combination of high wages, mis management and lets say some very dodgy practices.
They should have gone into administration by now the only reason is if they opened up the books some people may be in serious trouble.
Just hope that other clubs learn from this and the PL put tougher rules in place, I doubt that.
It would preserve the integrity of the Premier League season (in that matches wouldn't have to be expunged from the records) and Pompey would be saved from extinction which would be great for the local community.
But the PL would get their money back and Pompey would still be 'punished' by in all probability plummeting down the divisions.
I have no idea whether or not there were any 'very dodgy practices' as you say - it's possible of course but I;ve not read anything about that. They've just been guilty of greed, incompetence and lack of concern for anyone but themselves - which hardly makes them unique in football.
I think Barclay's proposed solution is a good one.
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Hilts for the practices check out the Pompey fans sites for the past few months they have shown all the links between the various players
including Daniel Azougy a convicted fraudster who for two months was Pompey's financial controller.
Never mind mysterious Arab owner who no one ever saw and appointed a number of Israelis in prominent positions.
That is not right, Arab's appointing Jews, just unheard of.
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I'm sure you're right. But rather than explicitly trying to defraud anyone, I think it's more a case of Pompey, having gotten themselves into such a terrible mess, were forced to get into bed with a succession of increasingly shady businessmen because they were the only people left who would deal with them. No doubt none of these businessmen had any interest whatsoever in doing right by the club.
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I'm sure you're right. But rather than explicitly trying to defraud anyone, I think it's more a case of Pompey, having gotten themselves into such a terrible mess, were forced to get into bed with a succession of increasingly shady businessmen because they were the only people left who would deal with them. No doubt none of these businessmen had any interest whatsoever in doing right by the club.
they were all linked to Gaydamek in some way, now it is not the fans fault, in some ways not even the PL's fault but rules have to be put in to strengthen the ownership rules. Only by Pompey going into administration will it force them to.
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Well this is Barclay's point: any number of clubs have gone into administration in the past and continue to do so. In other words it doesn't appear to act as any sort of deterrent.
I agree with you about the 'fit and proper person test' though. That needs to be tightened up considerably.
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Well this is Barclay's point: any number of clubs have gone into administration in the past and continue to do so. In other words it doesn't appear to act as any sort of deterrent.
I agree with you about the 'fit and proper person test' though. That needs to be tightened up considerably.
simply they have to have two rules
1) maximum debt levels
2) A deposit by prospective owners to prove intent and proof of funds.
Look at Blues for example, no one has a clue how they are going to funded if they really spend £40m plus wages on players. All kinds of rumours about Yeung but he could never do it and who is the real financial backer.
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I wouldn't put it past them that they sell their players out of the transfer window and have the PL payments up front and the owners squirrel it into their own pockets and the clubs is still gone. Any other club in the mess they were in would have gone into administration now. They seem to be trying to screw as much money as possible from everyone else.
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I wouldn't put it past them that they sell their players out of the transfer window and have the PL payments up front and the owners squirrel it into their own pockets and the clubs is still gone. Any other club in the mess they were in would have gone into administration now. They seem to be trying to screw as much money as possible from everyone else.
exactly, debts barely moved despite selling off millions worth of players.
the PL actually should withhold any money until proof of viability can be given at no point should they give Pompey any money to give to Gaydamek and his associates.
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I am confused why the PL should save them, Pompey got into trouble by a combination of high wages, mis management and lets say some very dodgy practices.
They should have gone into administration by now the only reason is if they opened up the books some people may be in serious trouble.
Just hope that other clubs learn from this and the PL put tougher rules in place, I doubt that.
I think dodgy practices and shady characters are part of the reason the PL should help as much as they can. After all, aren't these the very people that passed the PL's "Fit & Proper" test?
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The trouble is is that the fit and proper person test isn't there to find out if they can run a football club, its there to find out if they have any convictions and that is all it is there to do. In view of this I would concur with the poster above who has recommended something along the lines of a guarantee bond or other financial instruments being enforced to ensure the "ongoing" bona fides of club owners.
This is exactly the sort of thing the FA should be doing rather than fannying about with half the nonsense areas they do get involved in.
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I see David Gold in another attempt to get in the headlines, has offered to loan Pompey £10m. I bet he didn't know that clubs can not lend each other money. Oh no.
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The trouble is is that the fit and proper person test isn't there to find out if they can run a football club, its there to find out if they have any convictions and that is all it is there to do........
......including Daniel Azougy a convicted fraudster who for two months was Pompey's financial controller.
??
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The Pompey situation is now very dangerous, administration may not be an option as there is little chance of any body coming in to fund the trading under Admin, Liquidation is now a strong possibility
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The trouble is is that the fit and proper person test isn't there to find out if they can run a football club, its there to find out if they have any convictions and that is all it is there to do........
......including Daniel Azougy a convicted fraudster who for two months was Pompey's financial controller.
??
He's not the owner, he's just a lacky in the accounts department.
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They've got their deadline exemption, for what good it'll do
www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/rivals-cry-foul-as-pompey-win-right-to-hold-fire-sale-1904100.html
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Dunno what the other clubs are moaning about... forgetting the financial situation, how is selling loads of players going to help them in the relegation run-in?
Any of them worth a punt? I reckon James will finally go to Sturk now.
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Dunno what the other clubs are moaning about... forgetting the financial situation, how is selling loads of players going to help them in the relegation run-in?
Any of them worth a punt? I reckon James will finally go to Sturk now.
I think the problem is that if one club signs players and the rest don't.
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The Guardian are reporting a Hong Kong based investment company are interested in taking them over.
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I heard Portsmouth are currently owned by Doctor Claw out of Inspector Gadget.
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I certainly don't want to see clubs go to the wall like this but surely you can't keep changing the rules just to keep them going. If they're prepared to bend over backwards for Portsmouth, imagine what they'll do should Liverpool ever get to that state.
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I think the Premier League just want to keep Pompey going unti they get relegated anf then it's the Football League's problem!
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I think the Premier League just want to keep Pompey going unti they get relegated anf then it's the Football League's problem!
Probably but it would be a lot easier to deal with if they folded in the the summer rather than half way through the season. That's not to say I want them to, I hope that they find a way out of it, but the implications for the League and FA Cup would be immense if it happened now.
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I think the Premier League just want to keep Pompey going unti they get relegated anf then it's the Football League's problem!
Probably but it would be a lot easier to deal with if they folded in the the summer rather than half way through the season. That's not to say I want them to, I hope that they find a way out of it, but the implications for the League and FA Cup would be immense if it happened now.
Could you imagine that shower of shit down the road getting a bye into the semi-finals and a Wembley appearance? It doesn't bear thinking about!!
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Have faith in te big-wigs at the Premier League offices. They'll know what to do.
[puking-through-my-nose-so-hard-I-shit-myself emoticon]
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I think the Premier League just want to keep Pompey going unti they get relegated anf then it's the Football League's problem!
Probably but it would be a lot easier to deal with if they folded in the the summer rather than half way through the season. That's not to say I want them to, I hope that they find a way out of it, but the implications for the League and FA Cup would be immense if it happened now.
Could you imagine that shower of shit down the road getting a bye into the semi-finals and a Wembley appearance? It doesn't bear thinking about!!
It won't happen, they'll give the space to Southampton.
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2860028/Gold-Ill-lend-Pompey-10m.html
Surely they are not in so much trouble? Heart of gold that bloke!
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I for one would be saddened to see Pompey go into liquidation. How do some of the players live with themsleves taking £80,000 a week a letting the club die?
problem is that they were offered these wages, would you refuse it ?
Not at the time of signing the contract no but surely they could offer to take a wage cut given the current plight?
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2860028/Gold-Ill-lend-Pompey-10m.html
Surely they are not in so much trouble? Heart of gold that bloke!
He's such a dim weasel, he even goes on to reveal the real reason he's offering it
"West Ham have taken four points off Pompey this season and were they to go out of business we'd be in the bottom three
So, he's offering to "loan" Portsmouth 10m, but the PL have to underwrite it and assure he gets it back on a given date - not much of a risk there, Dave - and he's making it clear he's doing it to lessen West Ham's chances of relegation.
Honestly, these people.
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Chester City. When even the fans are begging for the club to be kicked out of the league, you know things are bad.
clicky (http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-city-fc/2010/02/18/chester-city-fc-supporters-ask-conference-to-throw-blues-out-59067-25857719/)
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Chester City. When even the fans are begging for the club to be kicked out of the league, you know things are bad.
clicky (http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-city-fc/2010/02/18/chester-city-fc-supporters-ask-conference-to-throw-blues-out-59067-25857719/)
If the phrase 'they're bollocksed' wasn't invented for this type of occasion it just would have been.
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I for one would be saddened to see Pompey go into liquidation. How do some of the players live with themsleves taking £80,000 a week a letting the club die?
problem is that they were offered these wages, would you refuse it ?
Not at the time of signing the contract no but surely they could offer to take a wage cut given the current plight?
have they been asked to ?
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"Would you be prepared to take a pay cut to help the club?"
"Of course. How much were you thinking about?"
"100%. We haven't got a pot to piss in."
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I thought they had unintentionally took paycuts the three times they had not been paid on time.
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Pompey
The sellling of players is not to avoid Administration it is to fund the administration.
This will not happen because a player signed out of the transfer window could cause the same problems Tevis did.
The PL will have to lend the administrator money which they will then offset from the end of season payment and or sale of the business, The PL and FA will try and get Pompey through the season because the impact on the PL and FA cup will be problematical.
Whatch this space
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Pompey
The sellling of players is not to avoid Administration it is to fund the administration.
This will not happen because a player signed out of the transfer window could cause the same problems Tevis did.
The PL will have to lend the administrator money which they will then offset from the end of season payment and or sale of the business, The PL and FA will try and get Pompey through the season because the impact on the PL and FA cup will be problematical.
Whatch this space
The PL have told Pompy they can not sell players outside of the window.They look doomed!
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
Some of it has been over stretching themselves but as mentioned before some of it has been possible more sinister goings on within the boardroom. If we didn't get someone good in like Lerner something similar could have happened here.
Also do you really want to lose points and see Small Heath byed through to the Semi of the FA cup?
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
Some of it has been over stretching themselves but as mentioned before some of it has been possible more sinister goings on within the boardroom. If we didn't get someone good in like Lerner something similar could have happened here.
Also do you really want to lose points and see Small Heath byed through to the Semi of the FA cup?
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
they did over stretch themselves and they deserve 'punishment' for that but what happened subsequently I have to say was more criminal and no one stepped in to stop it.
the football authorities wash their hands over any responsibility for the running of clubs and that s morally wrong
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
The club are the fans just like thay are at Villa, the fans had nothing to do with the Financial goings on, yet it is they who suffer.
The football authorities are totally useless
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
The club are the fans just like thay are at Villa, the fans had nothing to do with the Financial goings on, yet it is they who suffer.
The football authorities are totally useless
I agree totally. The fans are those that really lose out. Players, owners etc won't give a shit 5 years down the line. But those that used to go down Fratton Park every other week will not have a football team anymore.
Imagine the generations of supporters in families, suddenly having no team to pass down to their kids. I find it all depressing and very sad.
Imagine if through no fault of yours, Aston Villa didn't exist anymore.
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
they did over stretch themselves and they deserve 'punishment' for that but what happened subsequently I have to say was more criminal and no one stepped in to stop it.
the football authorities wash their hands over any responsibility for the running of clubs and that s morally wrong
who desreves punishment? because the people that got them ibto this mess have scarpered except Peter Storey, big mte of arry
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Storey won't be going anywhere either. He'll be clinging to the wreckage of the club to get as much of the alleged £1.5m a year he 'earns'.
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Storey won't be going anywhere either. He'll be clinging to the wreckage of the club to get as much of the alleged £1.5m a year he 'earns'.
i can tell you one thing, the paper shredders have been getting a fair old work out
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
they did over stretch themselves and they deserve 'punishment' for that but what happened subsequently I have to say was more criminal and no one stepped in to stop it.
the football authorities wash their hands over any responsibility for the running of clubs and that s morally wrong
who desreves punishment? because the people that got them ibto this mess have scarpered except Peter Storey, big mte of arry
every fan including many Pompey knew that wage levels of 95% of turnover is on a run to disaster. The punishment for winning the FA cup should have been administration but survival. the only reason that did not happen was that the whole situation there was rotten and criminal.
Leeds did exactly the same thing and they got punished for it you can not defy economics and you can not pay out more than you earn. It is a lesson any Villa fan calling for massive signings on top of already a stretched wage bill should consider.
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Storey won't be going anywhere either. He'll be clinging to the wreckage of the club to get as much of the alleged £1.5m a year he 'earns'.
That is a lot more per year than HDE ever did.
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
they did over stretch themselves and they deserve 'punishment' for that but what happened subsequently I have to say was more criminal and no one stepped in to stop it.
the football authorities wash their hands over any responsibility for the running of clubs and that s morally wrong
who desreves punishment? because the people that got them ibto this mess have scarpered except Peter Storey, big mte of arry
every fan including many Pompey knew that wage levels of 95% of turnover is on a run to disaster. The punishment for winning the FA cup should have been administration but survival. the only reason that did not happen was that the whole situation there was rotten and criminal.
Leeds did exactly the same thing and they got punished for it you can not defy economics and you can not pay out more than you earn. It is a lesson any Villa fan calling for massive signings on top of already a stretched wage bill should consider.
so who are you going to punish?
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Durham City are not having the best of seasons. A goal difference of -116 is quite incredible.
http://unibondleague.pitchero.com/tables.php
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It must be pretty easy as a fan to get caught up in it all.
I'll be honest, I have no idea how much of our turnover the wage bill is - I suspect 95% of Villa fans are the same.
I won't give a monkeys what the wage bill is next Sunday. I'll enjoy watching my team at Wembley, after all I follow it because I like football not accounts.
It's the same as with Leeds. I still can't feel anything other than sympathy for the fans.
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
they did over stretch themselves and they deserve 'punishment' for that but what happened subsequently I have to say was more criminal and no one stepped in to stop it.
the football authorities wash their hands over any responsibility for the running of clubs and that s morally wrong
who desreves punishment? because the people that got them ibto this mess have scarpered except Peter Storey, big mte of arry
every fan including many Pompey knew that wage levels of 95% of turnover is on a run to disaster. The punishment for winning the FA cup should have been administration but survival. the only reason that did not happen was that the whole situation there was rotten and criminal.
Leeds did exactly the same thing and they got punished for it you can not defy economics and you can not pay out more than you earn. It is a lesson any Villa fan calling for massive signings on top of already a stretched wage bill should consider.
so who are you going to punish?
the club
already stated that there should be a maximum debt level a club can carry, if they breach that then point deductions.
Pompey fans enjoyed the fruits of the FA cup win but it was brought at an unsustainable level and just like Leeds there is a price to be paid.
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
Part of the issue I think is that you cut your cloth accordingly and they budgeted with Gaydamak's ongoing financial input factored in.
When he effectively pulled the rug from under them they were screwed.
As indeed many other clubs would be if faced with a similar scenario, possibly ourselves included. (Though we aren't as far gone as they were with the wage bill alone tying up 90% of their income at one stage).
Only clubs who spend just what they earn through the gate, via transfer sales and commercial activities would be in any moral position to throw stones. And you won't find many of those in England.
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The Club will get punished, a 10 point deduction and relegation,
you seem to fail to recognise that the people that get hurt here are the fans, they did not mis manage the club.
The PL have now admitted that they have no fit and proper persons test yet it is they who decide the sanction even though it is the PL that has proved to be incompetant and not for the first time (see Tevez)
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It is the fans I feel most sorry for in all this.
Which is odd, as I didn't pity Leeds or Newcastle fans one iota.
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I'm sick of this sympathy for Pompey. They over stretched themselves through bad management had a few glory years and are now feeling the consequences - what goes around comes around.
Looks like they want the rules bent for them to sell players surely this disadvantages other teams who kept withi the rules and are better run financially. We have all quickly forgotten that Pompey are fundamentally a mid to lower division two (in old money) club.
Part of the issue I think is that you cut your cloth accordingly and they budgeted with Gaydamak's ongoing financial input factored in.
When he effectively pulled the rug from under them they were screwed.
As indeed many other clubs would be if faced with a similar scenario, possibly ourselves included. (Though we aren't as far gone as they were with the wage bill alone tying up 90% of their income at one stage).
Only clubs who spend just what they earn through the gate, via transfer sales and commercial activities would be in any moral position to throw stones. And you won't find many of those in England.
gaydamark walked when he found out how big the debts were, the problems go back to Storey, Redknap and Mandaric
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It must be pretty easy as a fan to get caught up in it all.
I'll be honest, I have no idea how much of our turnover the wage bill is - I suspect 95% of Villa fans are the same.
I won't give a monkeys what the wage bill is next Sunday. I'll enjoy watching my team at Wembley, after all I follow it because I like football not accounts.
It's the same as with Leeds. I still can't feel anything other than sympathy for the fans.
and it is not good giving sympathy for those fans as you say have no idea on the finances. Burying your head in the sand to economic reality is no reason to give sympathy. The sympathy belongs to the fans when the authorities failed to take action against an obviously very dodgy season.
Would you believe (well you would) that the new owner has yet to pass the fit an d proper test, not that he would care he is only out for revenge against the Gaydamek's
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It must be pretty easy as a fan to get caught up in it all.
I'll be honest, I have no idea how much of our turnover the wage bill is - I suspect 95% of Villa fans are the same.
I won't give a monkeys what the wage bill is next Sunday. I'll enjoy watching my team at Wembley, after all I follow it because I like football not accounts.
It's the same as with Leeds. I still can't feel anything other than sympathy for the fans.
and it is not good giving sympathy for those fans as you say have no idea on the finances. Burying your head in the sand to economic reality is no reason to give sympathy. The sympathy belongs to the fans when the authorities failed to take action against an obviously very dodgy season.
Would you believe (well you would) that the new owner has yet to pass the fit an d proper test, not that he would care he is only out for revenge against the Gaydamek's
see above there is no fit and proper persons test, you obviously dont know what is going on
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gaydamark walked when he found out how big the debts were, the problems go back to Storey, Redknap and Mandaric
incorrect, Gaydamek lent the club at least £30m to find the high wage bill and win the FA cup but the fans did not realise until after the event that
1) The actual FA cup run resulted in a financial loss for the club due to the bonus's paid.
2) That Gaydamek was funding the club through loans and not just giving money for shares
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gaydamark walked when he found out how big the debts were, the problems go back to Storey, Redknap and Mandaric
incorrect, Gaydamek lent the club at least £30m to find the high wage bill and win the FA cup but the fans did not realise until after the event that
1) The actual FA cup run resulted in a financial loss for the club due to the bonus's paid.
2) That Gaydamek was funding the club through loans and not just giving money for shares
no point in discussing this with you, as i said you dont know what is going on
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so who are you going to punish?
The twat with the bell.
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so who are you going to punish?
The twat with the bell.
yeh take his sister away
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gaydamark walked when he found out how big the debts were, the problems go back to Storey, Redknap and Mandaric
incorrect, Gaydamek lent the club at least £30m to find the high wage bill and win the FA cup but the fans did not realise until after the event that
1) The actual FA cup run resulted in a financial loss for the club due to the bonus's paid.
2) That Gaydamek was funding the club through loans and not just giving money for shares
no point in discussing this with you, as i said you dont know what is going on
well enlighten me then
point one was taken from a discussion today on Radio 5 before the Man U game
and point two is the reason why the club owe Gaydamek £30m, factually stated
the facts also state at the height Pompey were paying out 95% of all revenues on wages.
The facts also stated that the Gaydamek's owned Beitar Jesuralem and they were forced out because of debts owed to one person called Chanrai
Now none of this is the fans fault, BUT would you want Villa ever to run the wage bill that high, MON has clearly stated he wouldn't.
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What a tragedy for mr Portsmouth, (or that twat with a bell )as previously described!
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Most of Bent Arry's overpriced signings which came with ridiculous wages were made after Guydamak took over. Painting him as the innocent party in this is ridiculous.
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What a tragedy for mr Portsmouth, (or that twat with a bell )as previously described!
John Westwood, and he's actually alright when he's not pissed out of his face. A rare occurance admittedly.
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What a tragedy for mr Portsmouth, (or that twat with a bell )as previously described!
John Westwood, and he's actually alright when he's not pissed out of his face. A rare occurance admittedly.
I refuse to believe that, somebody will be saying David Cameron is a great bloke next.
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if your coments were not so out of context i might try, so when do you think Gaydermark found out about the deficit? you said i was incorect that the problems go back to the previous era, so Gaydermark would have stumped up his £30mil if he had known the true extent of the debt? My information and knowledge about this is not based upon Radio 5 or News paper speculation, this is for Pdiddy
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With 'Arry aving an 'and in dealings at Bournemouth, West Ham, Southampton and Portsmouth all of whom have hit financial difficulties fairly spectaculary i really can't wait for the moment he jumps ship at Spurs when he's told he has to sell players.
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if your coments were not so out of context i might try, so when do you think Gaydermark found out about the deficit? you said i was incorect that the problems go back to the previous era, so Gaydermark would have stumped up his £30mil if he had known the true extent of the debt? My information and knowledge about this is not based upon Radio 5 or News paper speculation
Can not see your point, Gaydamek should have true due dilengence to check the books and whatever Mandaric left him, if not his fault but Pompey are a small team buying the likes of Campbell, Diarra, Defoe
that is the problem, if he knew about the deficit why did he OK the signing of such players on such high wages.
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if your coments were not so out of context i might try, so when do you think Gaydermark found out about the deficit? you said i was incorect that the problems go back to the previous era, so Gaydermark would have stumped up his £30mil if he had known the true extent of the debt? My information and knowledge about this is not based upon Radio 5 or News paper speculation
Can not see your point, Gaydamek should have true due dilengence to check the books and whatever Mandaric left him, if not his fault but Pompey are a small team buying the likes of Campbell, Diarra, Defoe
that is the problem, if he knew about the deficit why did he OK the signing of such players on such high wages.
yep that was it, i have edited to explain more, it is in the public domain regarding the contrasting views on the crown debt,the inland revenue actions, it is surely not too hard to imagine that thier might be other liabilities that were not recognised.
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Gaydamak took over 4 years ago you would have thought the debt could have been sorted out and finances worked out
From what I understand and please Hawkeye correct me on this, despite selling the likes of Johnson, Diarra, Crouch etc. the debt level never got reduced.
so if this is true where did the money go, my guess is siphoned off to pay off Gaydamak's snr debts.
this is where the authorities should have stepped in and the failure to do so will be the epitaph to this sad episode
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When Pompey sold Glenn Johnson and Jermaine Defoe for c £34m where did the money go? From the above posts it suggests to repay Gaydamak his loan. What this means is that any owner who funds a club can effectively decide to run them into the ground (or assets stripping them if you like) to recover their loan. Other owners may write off the debt or just take it as equity in the club instead. Theoretically Randy could just sell all our best players and we would sink like a stone. Given the Premier League is the most lucrative in the world I am amazed we have come to this.
One more thing the fit and proper test is nothing to do with an owners financial means or intention for the club its just a check to see if someone has criminal background which would preclude them for owning a club - much like the with any company director. Given that Thaksin Shinawatra (?) passed this test you can see where the water mark is.
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Other owners may write off the debt or just take it as equity in the club instead. Theoretically Randy could just sell all our best players and we would sink like a stone.
That is exactly it.
Man City owner has took the equity route, Roman has done the same at Chelsea but still they owe £300m
for us there is the £200m available for Randy to trun the debt into shares but we owe the money to a trust which is bound by financial rules.
What we have to do is to trust Randy on this
but because he brought us very low, then he sells us tomorrow he gets back the vast majority of the debt, or more accurately the trust does.
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What we have to do is to trust Randy on this
but because he brought us very low, then he sells us tomorrow he gets back the vast majority of the debt, or more accurately the trust does.
The operative word being "have" - we'd have absolutely no choice in the matter.
Having lent the club 140 million pounds, if he decided to call in his debt tomorrow, we'd be fucked.
Getting the money back through selling the club for a figure which includes sale price plus debt is one thing, but it is only meaningful if someone is prepared to actually pay that much money, and in the current financial climate, not many people would be.
Pompey living way beyond their means and getting caught out is something which is unfortunate for their fans, but we are in absolutely no position to go for the moral high ground on this one - if our investor demanded his money back tomorrow, we too would be fucked, as we too have been living way beyond our means.
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Gaydamak took over 4 years ago you would have thought the debt could have been sorted out and finances worked out
From what I understand and please Hawkeye correct me on this, despite selling the likes of Johnson, Diarra, Crouch etc. the debt level never got reduced.
so if this is true where did the money go, my guess is siphoned off to pay off Gaydamak's snr debts.
this is where the authorities should have stepped in and the failure to do so will be the epitaph to this sad episode
the debt didnt get reduced because they hadnt paid for those players then add salarys and agents fees and err other disbursements and they end up worse off as a result of buying and selling those players, also the money paid out and money rcvd on transfers are not necessarily those that have been quoted, i am not trying to say that gaydermark is totaly blameless but he did get stitched up
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Hawkeye, if you're going to give lessons on Portsmouth's finances, spelling 'Gaydamak' correctly may help in giving you some added credibility.
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I think the biggest problem with Portsmouth at the moment is that they are still simply not big enough for people to really care, including those that run our game.
Yes we do, as fans, care for all (ish) teams and want to keep them going. Also, I'm not saying that the powers that be want Portsmouth to go bust, or don't care.
But, they are not one of the clubs that would really shock the footballing family to the core if they were to go bust. Yes, a big name no doubt but not big enough to bring consciences to a shuddering halt.
Not using us through rose tinted spectacles, but I think that if Aston Villa were on the brink of collapse it would run deep through every strand of football. Fans, the FA, Premier League, and even more importantly the media.
If a truly big name in English football were to look shaky then the media would be all over the story and would be demanding action to ensure they didn't go under.
Taking the rights and wrongs of what's happening at Portsmouth to one side, and whilst recognising that of course they're important and have a history themselves, they simply aren't important enough for enough people to care to want to stop any potential liquidation happening.
MOTD. Portsmouth the biggest story at the moment - even stated so by Alan Hansen - a huge game for them where 3 points are vital in order to try and stave off relegation and interest further investment and what happens? A game with 3 goals, 1 disallowed, a sending off, a last-minute winner all in the climate of fear, trepidation, loathing, hope and they get 5 minutes at best.
Says it all. Until someone big goes, or face the real possibility, no-one who can make a difference will really care.
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Chester being bought out by Danish consortium, they might not go bust after all, which is good. I hope Wigan go bust and all points against them are declared void.
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Chester being bought out by Danish consortium, they might not go bust after all, which is good.
Not as good as it sounds considering this consortium apparently have no business plan, no strategy of how to run a football club and nowhere near enough funds to cover the debt!
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What will happen to the league?
will there only be 19 teams?
Won't this by incredibly unfair on the relegation battling teams, as it will make their survival effort one place harder?
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What will happen to the league?
will there only be 19 teams?
Won't this by incredibly unfair on the relegation battling teams, as it will make their survival effort one place harder?
Very good news for Wolves, Hull and Burnley who have all lost to Portsmouth. Bad news for all the others, who will lose the points that they gained.
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I doubt the Prem league will allow it to happen though. They will expect administration before meltdown. It is going to the wire because Portsmouth want to try and avoid the 10 point deduction, for obvious reasons.
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So would the premier league become a 19-team league, or will an extra team get promoted or something?
Is it just me or is this a perfect opportunity to get Rangers/celtic into the Prem. (As much as I hate that thought)
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What will happen to the league?
will there only be 19 teams?
Won't this by incredibly unfair on the relegation battling teams, as it will make their survival effort one place harder?
No. Portsmouth will be deemed to have been relegated leaving only two more relegation places.
If they go altogether it will also benefit The Championship, as only two clubs go down only two will be relegated from the Championship to League One (and so on down the leagues I assume until you get to the utter chaos and mayhen that is non-league where they just make the rules up as they go along).
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I see.
I reckon they should put all the football league teams in a hat and the one they pull out gets premier league!
Acrington Stanley VS Villa coming soon....
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How the table would look if Pompey go. 22nd Feb
.......GD....PTS
CH....40.... 58
MU....31.... 51
AR....27.... 49
LV....18.....45
TH....21.... 43
AV....14.... 43
MC....12....40
EV.....2..... 35
SH....-4.... 34
FL.....3...... 33
BR...-16.... 31
ST...-5...... 28
WG...-22... 25
SN...-12.... 24
WV...-22... 24
WH...-7..... 23
BU...-27.... 23
HU...-29.... 23
BW...-21... 20
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As you can see it is not as bad for us as it could be. The real winners though are Chelsea, they really strectch their lead over United as the Mancs will lose six points to Chelsea's three.
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As you can see it is not as bad for us as it could be. The real winners though are Chelsea, they really strectch their lead over United as the Mancs will lose six points to Chelsea's three.
Its got better now we have closed the gap. West Ham were bottom last table I saw.
Shame its not Wigan that is going. We gain two goals and Spurs lose 11 and 6 points.
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I doubt the Prem league will allow it to happen though. They will expect administration before meltdown. It is going to the wire because Portsmouth want to try and avoid the 10 point deduction, for obvious reasons.
I don't undersatnd that myself?
They're pretty much fucked in terms of being certainties for the drop anyway, so if I was them I'd rather take the 10 points now when it won't have any effect than have it wreck any promotion hopes next season!
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I doubt the Prem league will allow it to happen though. They will expect administration before meltdown. It is going to the wire because Portsmouth want to try and avoid the 10 point deduction, for obvious reasons.
I don't undersatnd that myself?
They're pretty much fucked in terms of being certainties for the drop anyway, so if I was them I'd rather take the 10 points now when it won't have any effect than have it wreck any promotion hopes next season!
if they go into adminstration then Chanrai and Gaydamk lose probably 90% of the money they are owed as the IR has preferred creditor gets first dibs.
that is the last thing they want and the IR know this, hence their action because the last thing they want is for the sky money at the end of the season to go into these crooks hands.
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Is anything being said in the media about the "Fit & Proper" test(s) that an owner has to face to actually take over at a club?
Does anyone (including the PL) actually know for a fact who owns Pompey?
Whilst I appreciate that the PL haven't exactly fucked Pompey over on their own, they must be held accountable to some degree. And, on top of Shinawatra (sp) being able to take over at Man City (again making the so-called "fit & proper test" look like a joke), the disasterous 39th game concept, the fining of Wolves for doing what just about all of the Top 4 clubs have done, West Ham-gate and any number of other fuck-ups, surely someone has to call time on these muppets?
Just who do they answer to?
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Just who do they answer to?
As far as I know they're answerable to the 20 PL chairmen/clubs, who probably couldn't care less (most of them, anyway) aslong as the TV money keeps rolling in!
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I doubt the Prem league will allow it to happen though. They will expect administration before meltdown. It is going to the wire because Portsmouth want to try and avoid the 10 point deduction, for obvious reasons.
Surely they are better taking the 10pt reduction now, otherwise they will start with it next season.
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I doubt the Prem league will allow it to happen though. They will expect administration before meltdown. It is going to the wire because Portsmouth want to try and avoid the 10 point deduction, for obvious reasons.
Surely they are better taking the 10pt reduction now, otherwise they will start with it next season.
Pompey know they are going down, the 10 point deduction is irrelevant, it is the ability to fund the Admin and the avoidance of liquidation that is the problem
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I doubt the Prem league will allow it to happen though. They will expect administration before meltdown. It is going to the wire because Portsmouth want to try and avoid the 10 point deduction, for obvious reasons.
I don't undersatnd that myself?
They're pretty much fucked in terms of being certainties for the drop anyway, so if I was them I'd rather take the 10 points now when it won't have any effect than have it wreck any promotion hopes next season!
if they go into adminstration then Chanrai and Gaydamk lose probably 90% of the money they are owed as the IR has preferred creditor gets first dibs.
that is the last thing they want and the IR know this, hence their action because the last thing they want is for the sky money at the end of the season to go into these crooks hands.
This is incorrect since the Enterprise act, The HMRC only get 20% of floating charge assets capped at £600k
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So Portsmouths chairman is to hand over his 10% to the supporters trust, errr what is 10% of nothing or is it 10%of a 60 million pound debt?
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From Soccernet:
PORTSMOUTH IN CRISIS
Storrie reveals Pompey's massive £131m wage bill
By Harry Harris, Football Correspondent
February 22, 2010
Peter Storrie has blown wide open the inside story of where the money has gone at Portsmouth, with Soccernet able to reveal that £131 million has been paid to the players in wages over the past three years.
(http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/design05/images/2010/0220/peterstorrie20100210_275x155.jpg)
Storrie is trying to find a buyer
• Chainrai: Pompey will not die
• Pompey in dark over Al Fahim claim
• South African consortium interested
• Portsmouth owner takes Fratton Park
• Portsmouth nine days from going bust
The under siege Pompey chief executive is angry that insinuations are flying around that the club's cash has been misappropriated in some way.
Soccernet can now reveal that the players have taken the biggest chunk of the money, the banks have recalled £40 million of loans and the rest has gone in transfer fees.
All the figures have been declared to the courts and to the potential South African buyers, with a deal anticipated in the next 48 hours to try to save the club from oblivion.
Storrie gave a frank and revealing interview in the light of veiled allegations that something untoward has occurred at Fratton Park, with fans demanding to know there the money has gone and TV coverage over the weekend raising questions of what has happened to the money generated by a club that won the FA Cup two years ago.
Storrie said: "If you want to know where the money has gone, look at the accounts. It's no secret, we've had the report submitted to the courts, and we have presented these accountants to prospective new owners. It's there for all to see.
"The bulk of the money has gone to the players in wages. The cost of the players' wages this year is £37 million. Last season, when it was running at its height, it was £52 million, and the year before it was £42 million. The vast majority of the money over the last two to three years has gone on players' wages, and also on their transfer fees.
"It's all very well for Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen and Mark Lawrenson to look perplexed about where the money has gone by showing a chart of the players we've bought and looking at that £75 million and adding that to £70 million of debt and asking 'where's the £150 million gone?'
"In that period we bought £50 million-plus worth of players and paid out their salaries. The list showed one player sold for £18 million, but they never took off the £4 million sell-on fee to Arsenal or the fact that we paid £4 million for him, so in reality we were paid £10 million not the £18 million shown, and that is just one example.
"It is all so misleading and it leads to one thing: animosity from the supporters who keep asking us where the money has gone. So, it's time they were told. It's gone on the players' wages, on their transfer fees and the bank recalling their loans. That is why we have been forced to keep on selling players over the last 15 months - to keep this club alive."
Portsmouth's highest earner is David James, who is paid £50,000 a week. Apart from the England goalkeeper few players earn a similar salary as so many of the big earners have now been sold off. John Utaka has been widely reported as earning £80,000 a week, but Storrie made a point of telling Soccernet last week that the real figure is about a third of that. He does, however, boost his earnings with bonus payments.
Storrie also poses an interesting question for all those clubs currently running on much larger debts than Portsmouth, with his club having been declared insolvent by their own accountants' report to the courts.
Storrie says: "Yes, we have enormous debts. But don't some other Premier League clubs? Aren't their debts much bigger, in some cases, than ours? The biggest debts are to owners, and they are not calling in their loans.
"When you look at Chelsea, for example, their owner Roman Abramovich wrote off all their massive debts, wrote it all off, and that says it all."
The TV analysts over the weekend also posed the question of why South Africans, or anyone else for that matter, would want to take over a club in such financial turmoil. Storrie has a simple answer to that: "I am fed up with everyone highlighting the debts without ever bothering to look at the assets of this football club.
"The assets of this club are its players, their value in the transfer market, and there are some players whom we would value very highly. There is then the potential for 100,000 square foot of supermarket. You can imagine what that would be worth."
It has long been suspected that Portsmouth has attracted so many investors because of the lucrative real estate. For now the big battle is over the survival of the very club itself, rather than the potential further down the line to build a new stadium, cash in on the supermarket and realise the huge profits.
For now it's a tightening of belts, as Storrie added: "We are continuing to cut our overheads dramatically and that means the wage bill. There will be a lot more players out of contract at the end of the season and that will be our opportunity to cut the wage bill to make it more realistic to operate within a 20,000 stadium, until such time that we can move on.
"In the past the owners have funded the difference between the income from our limited stadium and the huge wage bill, but once that stopped, when Sasha [Gaydamak] sold, is when the trouble started."
D-day is March 1 and time is running out as Storrie said: "It's going to be a hectic few days. I am heavily in discussions and not been off the phone all day today again. The next couple of days could prove crucial, its going to be a very busy next 48 hours."
As a detailed accountants' report has been lodged with the courts, due diligence for a new owner can be shortened, and the lawyers are trying to fast-track the fourth takeover of the season. The South African consortium, spearheaded by a sports-orientated investor, has lodged proof of finances with the lawyers and will, on Monday, lodge those proof of funds with the banks.
Storrie concluded: "Yes, I am hopeful. the club has no price, but the new owners will take over the debts and will be going into this aware of all the financial facts. They will have to come to some kind of arrangement with the Revenue, it will be up to them to reach agreement with the Revenue."
If that fails on Monday, March 1, then Portsmouth's best option to stay alive would be administration and the faintest of hope Avram Grant has of staying in the Premier League will disappear.
The argument is growing that with chances of survival on the pitch almost over, administration is the sensible solution. The Premier League will want to avoid that scenario, but are rapidly running out of options to save them.
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£131M over 3 years isn't a lot is it? a player on £20k a week gets £3m in that time so a 40 player squad averaging £20k a week sounds about right
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£131M over 3 years isn't a lot is it? a player on £20k a week gets £3m in that time so a 40 player squad averaging £20k a week sounds about right
A 20k a week player will also have bonuses, signing on fees etc etc on top, not to mention 11 percent (or whatever it is) NI contribs from the club whacked on top.
Also, in a 40 player squad (which would be a very large squad), I suspect the average would be much less than 20k a week (at a sensibly run club) as 15 plus of those players would be youth team players who will be on relative peanuts.
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£131M over 3 years isn't a lot is it? a player on £20k a week gets £3m in that time so a 40 player squad averaging £20k a week sounds about right
When 93% of your income is players wages BEFORE bonuses, your heading for oblivion
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£131M over 3 years isn't a lot is it? a player on £20k a week gets £3m in that time so a 40 player squad averaging £20k a week sounds about right
When 93% of your income is players wages BEFORE bonuses, your heading for oblivion
and Storrie trying to defend himself by saying it had nothing to do with is just so funny.
On a yearly salary on £1.5m a year exactly what was he doing anyway ?
twiddling his thumbs ?
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Pompey are going into administration, so they won't be wound up any time soon. So we'll keep our points, and they might yet knock the filth out of the cup.
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lloks like they are going into Administration this week to avoid winding up. Does anyone know how many points ouor 4th place rivals have garnered from them? In the event of winding up they will all be expunged which is why that orrible man Gold offered to lend them $10m, so as to save the 4 points the Ammers have won from them
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Liverpool would have been the better off, arse not too good...
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Pompey are going into administration, so they won't be wound up any time soon. So we'll keep our points, and they might yet knock the filth out of the cup.
And I had £20 on them at the start of the season to get relegated...
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Pompey are going into administration, so they won't be wound up any time soon. So we'll keep our points, and they might yet knock the filth out of the cup.
And I had £20 on them at the start of the season to get relegated...
I did christmas 2008.. ;-)) good bloody odds too
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On Football Weekly podcast pre-season Sean Ingle said certain bookies were giving as high as 20/1 for Pompey to finish 20th.
I never did get round to putting it on.
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Administration looks certain now. Why would anyone looking to invest in them bother behorehand? They could take over later without having to pay off major creditors.
Talking of creditors, I hope HMRC continue to pursue them for every penny though.
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Pompey are going into administration, so they won't be wound up any time soon. So we'll keep our points, and they might yet knock the filth out of the cup.
And I had £20 on them at the start of the season to get relegated...
I did christmas 2008.. ;-)) good bloody odds too
I put £20 on Portsmouth, Burnley and Hull at the start of the season will get not far off £500 if they all go.
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Pompey are going into administration, so they won't be wound up any time soon. So we'll keep our points, and they might yet knock the filth out of the cup.
And I had £20 on them at the start of the season to get relegated...
I did christmas 2008.. ;-)) good bloody odds too
What odds did you get Juan Pablo?
The day 'Onest 'Enry dumped his key to the city and scuttled off to Spuds, I said Defoe and Crouch would join him within a year. Wish I'd put a few quid on that too.
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I doubt the Prem league will allow it to happen though. They will expect administration before meltdown. It is going to the wire because Portsmouth want to try and avoid the 10 point deduction, for obvious reasons.
I don't undersatnd that myself?
They're pretty much fucked in terms of being certainties for the drop anyway, so if I was them I'd rather take the 10 points now when it won't have any effect than have it wreck any promotion hopes next season!
if they go into adminstration then Chanrai and Gaydamk lose probably 90% of the money they are owed as the IR has preferred creditor gets first dibs.
that is the last thing they want and the IR know this, hence their action because the last thing they want is for the sky money at the end of the season to go into these crooks hands.
This is incorrect since the Enterprise act, The HMRC only get 20% of floating charge assets capped at £600k
I think that "football creditors" rank ahead of HMRC due to the special rules which seem to apply to Admins of Football Clubs.
Therefore, its us, the taxpayer, that'll lose out.
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From what I heard the PL have said if Pompey go into administration rather than being wound up they wil guarantee £5m in May and £16m in August, sufficient to pay their main creditors, including HMRC, so we as taxpayers won't be footing their bills
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From what I heard the PL have said if Pompey go into administration rather than being wound up they wil guarantee £5m in May and £16m in August, sufficient to pay their main creditors, including HMRC, so we as taxpayers won't be footing their bills
but leaves them with hardly any other income for the rest of the season so still will be in big trouble.
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From what I heard the PL have said if Pompey go into administration rather than being wound up they wil guarantee £5m in May and £16m in August, sufficient to pay their main creditors, including HMRC, so we as taxpayers won't be footing their bills
but leaves them with hardly any other income for the rest of the season so still will be in big trouble.
If this not just the parachute payments, with £5m of it coming early? If so they should still have their normal income from gate receipts and TV money!
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From what I heard the PL have said if Pompey go into administration rather than being wound up they wil guarantee £5m in May and £16m in August, sufficient to pay their main creditors, including HMRC, so we as taxpayers won't be footing their bills
but leaves them with hardly any other income for the rest of the season so still will be in big trouble.
If this not just the parachute payments, with £5m of it coming early? If so they should still have their normal income from gate receipts and TV money!
as I read it that £21m is the payment for this season but the parachute payment will also be claimed by creditors as well if they are not paid off then. The hope I guess is that they stay into admin until the end of the season. Pay off what they can, sold off and start again, will the credtiros accept that though, knowing parachute payment is also there.
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From what I heard the PL have said if Pompey go into administration rather than being wound up they wil guarantee £5m in May and £16m in August, sufficient to pay their main creditors, including HMRC, so we as taxpayers won't be footing their bills
but leaves them with hardly any other income for the rest of the season so still will be in big trouble.
Absolutely - they are in deep shit and the more cynical among us see the PL's 'help' for Portsmouth is aimed at avoiding the club being wound up on their watch. It's pretty embarrassing for the PL to reveal that the level of debts sustained by PL clubs is such that it now threatens the very existence of top flight clubs (although there are clubs going bust from top to bottom leagues now). In my view the 'help' they are giving Pompey sees them relegated (which would happen anyway) and shifts the longer term problem to the Football League
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just wondering but can the IR in particular appeal against administration if they feel it is a way of Pompey reneging on thier commitments ?
Would they want to ?
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From what I heard the PL have said if Pompey go into administration rather than being wound up they wil guarantee £5m in May and £16m in August, sufficient to pay their main creditors, including HMRC, so we as taxpayers won't be footing their bills
but leaves them with hardly any other income for the rest of the season so still will be in big trouble.
Absolutely - they are in deep shit and the more cynical among us see the PL's 'help' for Portsmouth is aimed at avoiding the club being wound up on their watch. It's pretty embarrassing for the PL to reveal that the level of debts sustained by PL clubs is such that it now threatens the very existence of top flight clubs (although there are clubs going bust from top to bottom leagues now). In my view the 'help' they are giving Pompey sees them relegated (which would happen anyway) and shifts the longer term problem to the Football League
I think that's exactly what they want.
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So it's official. Portsmouth will go into administration tomorrow. Better than being wound up I suppose, but the "little" people still end up being screwed. People like the suppliers to the club, the caterers etc, while the likes Storrie and the players get their bags of cash.
Sad day really, but relegation and the chance to rebuild may be their best long term option.
I'm glad the "fit and proper" test thingy helped them out . . .
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So it's official. Portsmouth will go into administration tomorrow. Better than being wound up I suppose, but the "little" people still end up being screwed. People like the suppliers to the club, the caterers etc, while the likes Storrie and the players get their bags of cash.
Sad day really, but relegation and the chance to rebuild may be their best long term option.
I'm glad the "fit and proper" test thingy helped them out . . .
The worst example of this sort of shittiness has to be Ken Bates taking Leeds into administration or receivership and then buying them back the very next bloody day.
I think this "football creditors" stuff is crap and am surprised it hasn't been challenged in court. I suppose the problem is that it's the small fish who probably usually miss out and can't afford litigation on top of the 99p in the £1s they're owed going missing.
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Interesting to see William Hill have paid out today on my £20 bet placed at the start of the season for them to go down...just in time for a little flutter on Wembley this weekend!
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Chester have gone (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chester/8538236.stm)
They may be accepted into a lower division but realistically it will be a new fans club if anything playing in Chester next season.
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so who is the next one then ?
West Ham look fine as they will survive but will get rid of players for next season
Hull could well be
anyone else ?
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Liverpool? [pray to the gods of all that is right emoticon]
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Administration looks certain now. Why would anyone looking to invest in them bother behorehand? They could take over later without having to pay off major creditors.
Talking of creditors, I hope HMRC continue to pursue them for every penny though.
er they cant
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just wondering but can the IR in particular appeal against administration if they feel it is a way of Pompey reneging on thier commitments ?
Would they want to ?
No they cant, as long as they satisfy the criteria for Admin, the main criteria being that there would be a higher asset realisation than liquidation.
The creditors can form a creditors comitte and investigate the affairs of the club which can lead to action against directors for wrongful trading or even fraudulent preference,
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just wondering but can the IR in particular appeal against administration if they feel it is a way of Pompey reneging on thier commitments ?
Would they want to ?
No they cant, as long as they satisfy the criteria for Admin, the main criteria being that there would be a higher asset realisation than liquidation.
The creditors can form a creditors comitte and investigate the affairs of the club which can lead to action against directors for wrongful trading or even fraudulent preference,
thanks
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Action against the directors? Do we know for sure who they really are?
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Action against the directors? Do we know for sure who they really are?
yes they are registered at companys house, even if someone acts as a director and is not registered then there is provision for "shadow directors" to be included. the problem here may be that some of these charecters are foreign nationals and have scarpered.
Peter Storey will have some questions to answer though.
i would not hold your breath that any thing will happen as i have said before the paper shreders have probably been getting some use.
Interesting appointment of administrator, watch this space
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just wondering but can the IR in particular appeal against administration if they feel it is a way of Pompey reneging on thier commitments ?
Would they want to ?
No they cant, as long as they satisfy the criteria for Admin, the main criteria being that there would be a higher asset realisation than liquidation.
The creditors can form a creditors comitte and investigate the affairs of the club which can lead to action against directors for wrongful trading or even fraudulent preference,
thanks
no problems mate
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Chester have gone (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chester/8538236.stm)
They may be accepted into a lower division but realistically it will be a new fans club if anything playing in Chester next season.
Feel sorry for the fans, sounds like the board were complete idiots couldn't even be bothered to attend the meeting where they were expelled to plead their case. Will be bad news for Tammurf too as they lose six points, commiserations Dave.
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As a matter of interest, I know that the players enjoy the status of preferential creditors, as do clubs owed transfer fees, but where does Sol Campbell stand with his claim for unpaid "image rights"? I personally hope that its at the end of a long queue behind the programme printers, pie providers and the bloke who refurbished the changing rooms when they were first promoted and is still owed thousands.
The whole club has been a basket-case for a few seasons now, but unfortunately is indicative of the whole grubby, money-obsessed, poorly managed black hole that is much of professional football.
Someone with the biggest pair of bollocks ever seen needs to come in and shake up the game top-to-bottom in terms of the management of its financial affairs.
It won't happen, though. I hear today that the PL are about to conclude another massive increase in overseas TV rights. Money that will disappear into the back pockets of unscrupulous owners, over-paid players of dubious talent and their agents...
...and in twelve months time there will be another current or ex-PL club teetering on the brink of survival.
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Chester have gone (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chester/8538236.stm)
They may be accepted into a lower division but realistically it will be a new fans club if anything playing in Chester next season.
Feel sorry for the fans, sounds like the board were complete idiots couldn't even be bothered to attend the meeting where they were expelled to plead their case. Will be bad news for Tammurf too as they lose six points, commiserations Dave.
Yes, it plunges us (and Cambridge) right into the relegation battle. Can't be helped though.
Grays Athletic look like they might be going next, they've launched a desperate appeal for funds claiming that they are completely broke after only having played one home game since January and not having another one scheduled until April!
Coupled with the rumours that Salisbury are on the brink it might mean only one relegation place anyway.
Business as usual in the mayhem and chaos of The Conference then.
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How the fuck can Grays go so long without a home game?
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How the fuck can Grays go so long without a home game?
A very unfortunate run of bad weather in Feb combined with them being down to play home games against teams involved in FA Trophy games and Chester City in March.
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I always thought Grays Athletic was the most uninspiring football club name.
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I always thought Grays Athletic was the most uninspiring football club name.
Ever been there?
It is entirely suitable.
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Interesting appointment of administrator, watch this space
Please expand for the slow of thinking.
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Interesting appointment of administrator, watch this space
Please expand for the slow of thinking.
Maybe it's Harry Redknapp?
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just wondering but can the IR in particular appeal against administration if they feel it is a way of Pompey reneging on thier commitments ?
Would they want to ?
No they cant, as long as they satisfy the criteria for Admin, the main criteria being that there would be a higher asset realisation than liquidation.
The creditors can form a creditors comitte and investigate the affairs of the club which can lead to action against directors for wrongful trading or even fraudulent preference,
The asset realisations might be higher in an ADM than in a WUC/CVL (certainly the IP will get more out of it !!) but HMRC will get less due to the "footballing creditors must be paid first" situation that applies to ADMs.
Has HMRC ever tried to challenge the way that normal insolvency regulations don't seem to apply to football clubs ?
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The asset realisations might be higher in an ADM than in a WUC/CVL (certainly the IP will get more out of it !!) but HMRC will get less due to the "footballing creditors must be paid first" situation that applies to ADMs.
OMG. LMAO.
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Has HMRC ever tried to challenge the way that normal insolvency regulations don't seem to apply to football clubs ?
Probably, they do keep all bases covered, serves the bastards right ( Ann Robinson smiley )
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Hmrc have challenged pompeys administration bid and they are ordered to high court tomorrow- may be wound up!
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Hmrc have challenged pompeys administration bid and they are ordered to high court tomorrow- may be wound up!
Oh balls, that'll really put the skids on our top 4 challenge if it happens.
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This would be very, very annoying.
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They have got to let them get to this weekend so they can beat Small Heath.
Then we can draw them in the semi.
They can then get wound up - and we get a bye to the final.
Thus we don't have to waste money (£70 to stand up behind the goal) in that corporate citadel for the semi and then have to spend over an hour getting out of the car park.
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Turning over an adminastration order is unprecedented, the Adminisrtator says he is not concerned. If this did happen they would have to rewrite the whole insolvency legislation because it would cause havoc with the process, the only way i can see this happening is if the basis of the order that was granted is some how ultra-vires which means "beyond the powers" ie the Admin Order is ilegal in that it did not comply with the 2003 Enterprise Act. As i said this is extremely unusual.
It maybe that HMRC would rather have the affairs of Pompey placed into The Official Recivers Hands because this would provide a better basis for an investigation into the conduct of the Company and its Directors.
It could be posturing by HMRC as there was a significant sea change in attitude last year caused by the very low level of collections they are making which has led to these high profile cases.
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Ok HMRC are chalenging on a technicality, they are chalenging the debenture under which the order was granted- as long as the debenture is ok then the order should stand
An Admin order is proposed on behalf of a debenture holder or the company and this obviously determines who gets the appointment
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Hawkeye- you clearly have a much better understanding of these things than me. In your opinion, what do you think is the likelihood of HMRC succeeding in their challenge, and more importantly if they do succeed how quickly could they get Portsmouth wound up? You know what I'm getting at here - how likely are Blose to get a bye to the semi?
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Hawkeye- you clearly have a much better understanding of these things than me. In your opinion, what do you think is the likelihood of HMRC succeeding in their challenge, and more importantly if they do succeed how quickly could they get Portsmouth wound up? You know what I'm getting at here - how likely are Blose to get a bye to the semi?
I wonder if they would get bye or would Southampton take Portsmouth's place?
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Would make sense for Southampton to progress. They would have a massive case to be re-entered, should there be a winding up of pompey
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I've not paid too much attention to this, but would season ticket holders get any money back?
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Would make sense for Southampton to progress. They would have a massive case to be re-entered, should there be a winding up of pompey
I think a select Manchester United/Arsenal XI should be allowed in, for one round only.
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If Southampton have a case to be reinstated then so do every other team that Pompey have played since the third round. I imagine that Blues would just get a bye, seems the most logical solution.
It's more concerning that a famous old club are likely to go out of business and people will lose their jobs, while those responsible will get away relatively unaffected.
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I've got a weird feeling Portsmouth will survive and get to the FA Cup final.
If we can't win it, I hope they do.
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I've not paid too much attention to this, but would season ticket holders get any money back?
What I know of these things together with 40 cents would get you a phone call but I'd guess that Season Ticket Holders would be way way down the list of creditors.
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I've got a weird feeling Portsmouth will survive and get to the FA Cup final.
If we can't win it, I hope they do.
That would be a great story, and far more satisfying than the Cup Redknapp bought using the Pompey credit card!!
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I've got a weird feeling Portsmouth will survive and get to the FA Cup final.
If we can't win it, I hope they do.
That would be a great story, and far more satisfying than the Cup Redknapp bought using the Pompey credit card!!
I have to admit if I could buy one for the Villa using someone elses credit card I would find that satisfying enough.......Obviously not if we went out of business a couple of years down the line though.
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post deleted.
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From today's Daily Mirror:
'Sick joke' as potless Portsmouth offer fans financial advice (http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Sick-joke-as-potless-Portsmouth-offer-fans-financial-advice-article341255.html)
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I noticed Keith HArris is prepared put money into MAnure to get 25% of the shares. Whos putting the other 75% in, Orville the duck , mayb Cuddles the money.. Its already run by sock puppets...
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Some of these clubs are in trouble, some not...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1254759/Arsenal-leapfrog-Roman-Abramovichs-Chelsea-footballs-rich-list-Manchester-United-toppled-Spanish-giants.html
We're still not in it, but it is for 2008/09. Accounts soon Risso?
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I've got a weird feeling Portsmouth will survive and get to the FA Cup final.
If we can't win it, I hope they do.
You are getting very emotional about other people's clubs. First Fulham, now the bellringers. Are you going through the change?
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I see the HMRC are challenging Portsmouths admin order, I think they will clamp down big style on all football clubs, they must owe billions in unpaid taxes.Which will effect us all in long time.
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I see the HMRC are challenging Portsmouths admin order, I think they will clamp down big style on all football clubs, they must owe billions in unpaid taxes.Which will effect us all in long time.
Why will it? The majority of clubs will pay the tax they owe on a regular basis just like they're supposed to.
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I've got a weird feeling Portsmouth will survive and get to the FA Cup final.
If we can't win it, I hope they do.
You are getting very emotional about other people's clubs. First Fulham, now the bellringers. Are you going through the change?
I feel myself possessed by a benevolent force, Damon.
I offered an old person my seat at the weekend. Not at the match, mind.
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One for Hawkeye or Risso.
With regard to Portsmouth and the League's insistence that football creditors come first, surely that is the job of the administrator to decide on who gets paid what and when, and is there any legal basis on which the league can stick their members ahead of, say, HMRC in the creditors' pecking order?
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I've got a weird feeling Portsmouth will survive and get to the FA Cup final.
If we can't win it, I hope they do.
You are getting very emotional about other people's clubs. First Fulham, now the bellringers. Are you going through the change?
I feel myself possessed by a benevolent force, Damon.
I offered an old person my seat at the weekend. Not at the match, mind.
Menopause innit.
Maudlin sentimentality as such.
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I've got a weird feeling Portsmouth will survive and get to the FA Cup final.
If we can't win it, I hope they do.
You are getting very emotional about other people's clubs. First Fulham, now the bellringers. Are you going through the change?
I feel myself possessed by a benevolent force, Damon.
I offered an old person my seat at the weekend. Not at the match, mind.
Menopause innit.
Maudlin sentimentality as such.
Manopause.
*bursts into tears*
That was so beautiful, adrenachrome.
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On a slightly lower level, word has it that Farsley Celtic have been wound up and will cease to exist from today.
Another club fucked up by an over-ambitious owner who chased league football with a club that barely got 400 fans through the turnstiles when in The Conference.
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From The Times online:
Portsmouth must find £7 million before the end of the month if they are to avoid being wound up, the High Court heard today. Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC) laid bare Portsmouth's dire financial situation as the Premier League’s bottom club returned to court this morning after the basis on which they entered administration last Friday was challenged.
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the Portsmouth hearing adjourned until 15/3.
It appears that there is now a question around the validity of the administrator and that he is in some way 'connected' to the owner !!!!
This is becoming even more incredulous and I suspect that HMRC are going to be soooooo pissed off that pompey will be made an example of.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8544183.stm
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What has aroused thier suspicions is that the administrator got parachuted in useing a debenture application when it would have been normal for the club to propose the Administration, Hacker Young were not on the ticket.
The administrator is supposed to be nuetral as he is effectively appointed by the court. HMRC could have got wind of a Pre Pack and this action has stopped that it ints tracks.
HMRC are all over this like one of RFTs suits.
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I thought the "Administrator" looked more than a little suspicious last week. Everything that comes out of his mouth sounds remarkably similar to the other slimy "representatives" associated with the club and its "owners".
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I thought the "Administrator" looked more than a little suspicious last week. Everything that comes out of his mouth sounds remarkably similar to the other slimy "representatives" associated with the club and its "owners".
he looks suspiciously like the caretaker from the old fairground
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If they can't pay HMRC, surely that means they wouldn't have a Voluntary Agreement (or something like that, forgotten the proper name)? This means they should be deducted another 15 points as I understand it.
Would be better to take them now when they are virtually down then wait till next season.
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I thought the "Administrator" looked more than a little suspicious last week. Everything that comes out of his mouth sounds remarkably similar to the other slimy "representatives" associated with the club and its "owners".
he looks suspiciously like the caretaker from the old fairground
And he would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you blasted meddling kids.
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I see the HMRC are challenging Portsmouths admin order, I think they will clamp down big style on all football clubs, they must owe billions in unpaid taxes.Which will effect us all in long time.
Why will it? The majority of clubs will pay the tax they owe on a regular basis just like they're supposed to.
Or keep rearranging their debts to ensure that any profits are outweighed by interest on debts as Man U have done. It would be nice if I could write off some (or all) of my tax burden because I've been living on credit cards.
One rule for businesses, one rule for the people. Such is politics.
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I thought the "Administrator" looked more than a little suspicious last week. Everything that comes out of his mouth sounds remarkably similar to the other slimy "representatives" associated with the club and its "owners".
I dont want to say too much but it is an unusual appointment.
Oh by the way the majority of Insolvency Practitioners are like that
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Mr Andronikou is not Mr Popular at Swindon...
http://thetownend.com/index.php/topic,35994.390.html
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Mr Andronikou is not Mr Popular at Swindon...
http://thetownend.com/index.php/topic,35994.390.html
Thanks for those links.
The 3rd tier Insolvency Practices are full of these characters, Hacker Young are a back street firm and have a bit of form
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Mr Andronikou is not Mr Popular at Swindon...
http://thetownend.com/index.php/topic,35994.390.html
Thanks for those links.
The 3rd tier Insolvency Practices are full of these characters, Hacker Young are a back street firm and have a bit of form
this is a great quote
"After all they've been through, having Andronikou turn up as administrator must be like being caught in a civil war, having your house and possessions destroyed by rogue troops but thinking you've at least reached safety when you finally manage to battle your way through to a refugee camp. And then you get introduced to the camp director, Mr Satan"
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Last night the central heating failed, so I stumbled down to the garage to stare at the boiler and as I wandered disconsloately around having failed to persuade it to come back to life by force of will I stumbled across a copy of The Sun tucked down behind it.
Having first turned to Page 3 (sadly the previous owner had removed it) I went to the back page where there was a story about Portsmouth by Brian Woolnough which started:
"Portsmouth, debt-ridden and relegated, will be sold for £1 million at the end of the week"
The date? 11th May 1988.
In other news, Martin Keown had been picked for the Under-21s alongside the likes of Paul Gascoigne (who was apparently being lined up for a £2m move to ManU), Teddy Sheringham and err... Julian Dicks. Wimbledon had been handed a "massive boost" when Terry Gibson had declared himself fit for Saturday's Cup Final against Liverpool, Ian Botham had scored just 86 runs in 7 innings so far that season, Zola Budd had naffed off back to South Africa and Princess Di had had to "rush her Harry to hospital for hernia op" and an overdose of alliteration.
Oh, and you could win (if you were very unlucky) an MG Metro Turbo (0-60 in 9.9 seconds!) worth £8,000.
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And we'd just secured promotion back to the top flight with a 0-0 draw at Swindon.
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On a slightly lower level, word has it that Farsley Celtic have been wound up and will cease to exist from today.
Another club fucked up by an over-ambitious owner who chased league football with a club that barely got 400 fans through the turnstiles when in The Conference.
Their game at AFC Telford in Conference North last night, got cancelled (in the morning!) as administrators at Farsley Celtic, pulled the plug on the only offer to buy the club, because the administrators fee has not been agreed! (Apparently)
In the end 800 folks turned up to see AFC Telford beat a Wolves reserves team 4 – 0, as both clubs had worked together as Wolves reserve match also got cancelled that morning!
Quite a few of Telford’s match staff agreed to go unpaid last night, to limit the financial loss! (Touch of luck that Wolves reserves play some of their games at the Bucks Head).
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Last night the central heating failed, so I stumbled down to the garage to stare at the boiler and as I wandered disconsloately around having failed to persuade it to come back to life by force of will I stumbled across a copy of The Sun tucked down behind it.
Surely thats a fire risk! :O
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BBC: Portsmouth given £30m plus price tag by administrator (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8548666.stm)
I know we have the wherewithal to finish the season, though there will have to be cost cutting from top to bottom
From top to bottom? Yes, I'm sure its the excessive wages the club's been paying the cleaners, the catering staff, the stewards and the like that's seen the club get into the state it is.
That comment has really annoyed me this morning. And the whole football creditors first thing is winding me up more. I think I've actually turned and hope HMRC do go after them for the money owed, because I just can't see why they and other creditors get chucked to the bottom of the pile while agents and the like still seemingly get everything they're "owed".
Oh and doesn't it make the reported £64m it cost Randy to buy us look good business?!
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BBC: Portsmouth given £30m plus price tag by administrator (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8548666.stm)
I know we have the wherewithal to finish the season, though there will have to be cost cutting from top to bottom
I am beginning to think that I don't like this administrator. He likes being on the telly too much. What kind of accountant offers himself up as a soundbite to SSN?
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An administrator (or, indeed, receiver) is only interested in two things: realising as much money as he can on behalf of his client - and his fee.
So to answer your question, Damon: presumably one who realises that the media's interest in Premier League football can be harnessed for his and his client's benefit.
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An administrator (or, indeed, receiver) is only interested in two things: realising as much money as he can on behalf of his client - and his fee.
So to answer your question, Damon: presumably one who realises that the media's interest in Premier League football can be harnessed for his and his client's benefit.
It's a dirty world.
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I suppose. I just have an irrational suspicion of people who want to be on TV.
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From The Guardian:
Leeds United's owners declared fit and proper but can remain anonymous
• They are all above board, says Leeds' holding company
• Politicians and fan groups condemn Football League
Politicians from the three main parties and football supporters' groups have united in calling for the Football League to make public who owns its clubs after the league approved as "fit and proper" the offshore owners of Leeds United while keeping their identity private.
The sports minister, Gerry Sutcliffe, said: "Fans of any football club have a right to know who the owners are. We want to see greater supporter representation in the running of football clubs and far greater accountability. The League should insist on clubs making public to their supporters who owns them."
He was joined by the Conservative shadow sports minister, Hugh Robertson, who argued: "As with Parliament and many other areas of public life, transparency is going to be an increasing requirement and expectation. That includes publicly identifying the owners of football clubs. Football should reform its governance, to include greater supporter representation on the board of clubs."
That call was echoed by the Liberal Democrat MP for Harrogate, Phil Willis, who has long criticised the anonymity of Leeds' ownership, routed via companies in offshore tax havens. "At the very least, supporters of a club have a right to know who owns it. As an act of faith and goodwill, I hope the Leeds United board now publish the documentation they have presented to the Football League so that all sense of mystery can be removed."
The Premier League does now require its clubs to publish the names of all shareholders with stakes of 10% or more, but the Football League does not. Instead, clubs must tell the League's chairman, Lord Mawhinney, and three other senior executives, who the ultimate owners are, but the information is not made public.
Leeds have declined requests from the Guardian, following the League's ratification, to say who the ultimate owners are. The only response this week came from Peter Boatman of Chāteau Fiduciare, the Geneva-based financial administrator of Leeds' holding company, Forward Sports Fund. "It is not necessary for you to have that information," he said.
The politicians were joined by the Leeds United Supporters Club, the national Football Supporters' Federation and Supporters Direct in calling for League clubs' owners to be publicly identified. "Like all football clubs, Leeds United's character is that of a public institution wrapped in a privately owned business and that creates a mismatch," said Dave Boyle, the chief executive of Supporters Direct. "The authorities can recognise that public nature by sending a clear message: you can remain a private anonymous citizen, and you can own a football club, but you cannot do both."
Boatman was named last May as an FSF director and confirmed this week he had passed the fit and proper person test. He pointed to the progress Leeds have made on the field and financially this season, and said questions about who owns the club would be seen as unwelcome criticism with the club pushing for promotion. He added that no information has been withheld from the League.
Summing up Leeds' position under the current ownership, Boatman said: "The situation at the football club has improved immensely, which is very satisfying when some other clubs are in serious financial trouble. We have never denied information to the Football League and although I cannot confirm or deny who the shareholders are, the only thing I can say about the structures we control is that they are all above board."
The League's approval of Leeds' owners follows inquiries it began in October after the Guardian revealed that the club's chairman, Ken Bates, had revised his account of its ownership at a court case in Jersey. In January last year, Bates' solicitors told Jersey's royal court, which is hearing a dispute between Leeds and a finance company, Admatch, that he and his long term financial adviser, Patrick Murrin, jointly owned "management shares" in the club's holding company, the Forward Sports Fund.
In May, Bates swore an affidavit stating that the previous statement had been "not correct" and "an error on my part". In fact, he stated, he did not own a management share in FSF. The affidavit attached a letter from Chāteau Fiduciare, which said FSF had 10,000 shares, owned by shareholders who have not been named.
The League confirmed it had written to Leeds seeking clarification because directors and 30% shareholders in its clubs must be identified to it and passed as fit and proper people who have no recent criminal convictions and have not run a football club into insolvency twice. The League made no further comment until a spokesman said last month: "The Football League has concluded its enquiries regarding Leeds United's fit and proper persons test documentation and has addressed the issues raised with the club. Following further information from Leeds, the League is now satisfied that the club is compliant with Football League regulations."
No further details have been released. Sutcliffe this week acknowledged the moves the League has made in securing detailed financial information from clubs and requiring outstanding tax to be paid, but said "more can still be done" to make clubs more transparent. A League source said clubs currently have "no appetite" to introduce a rule requiring their owners to be made public.
Mawhinney, who is due to retire this month after seven years in which he has overseen a series of reforms, did indicate that he believes the League should go further. "We have come a long way," he said. "Clubs cannot play in our league unless we know who the beneficial owners are. Could we do more? Yes – but it is a matter of priorities. Eventually I think football will be strengthened if the ownership of clubs goes public."
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So, Chester City are gone. I've no real feeling about them either way, but it's a shame to see such an old club going out of existence.
Cardiff and Southend given more time to pay their tax bills.
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/mar/10/chester-city-wound-up)
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So, Chester City are gone. I've no real feeling about them either way, but it's a shame to see such an old club going out of existence.
Cardiff and Southend given more time to pay their tax bills.
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/mar/10/chester-city-wound-up)
Spent about 10 years in Chester and my ex Bruv in Law and his dad were big CCFC fans. I went down quite a lot even going to away games in the season they got promoted back to the Football League. Nice little club who had one of the best fanzines ever "The Onion Bag".
This of course means the only International local derby in World Football is no more. Chester v Wrexham RIP.
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So, Chester City are gone. I've no real feeling about them either way, but it's a shame to see such an old club going out of existence.
Memories of the League Cup semi-final at Villa Park in 1975 will stay with me forever. Fantastic night.
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I went to a Wrexham v Chester derby game and the hatred was tangible. Only 6000 in the ground as well.
I believe Chesters original ground lay partly in Wales as well as England which was why they used to play in the Welsh cup many many years ago.
Shame they've gone but I believe there will be a phoenix club set up shortly. Perhaps they'll be called Chester 2010!
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I believe Chesters original ground lay partly in Wales as well as England which was why they used to play in the Welsh cup many many years ago.
True about half their ground being in Wales and the other half in England (Sealand Road was it?).
But that's not the reason they played in the Welsh Cup.
Stourbridge reached the final of the Welsh Cup in the mid 70s. Absolutely no idea what the criteria for entering was.
Shame though
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I went to a Wrexham v Chester derby game and the hatred was tangible. Only 6000 in the ground as well.
I believe Chesters original ground lay partly in Wales as well as England which was why they used to play in the Welsh cup many many years ago.
Shame they've gone but I believe there will be a phoenix club set up shortly. Perhaps they'll be called Chester 2010!
No its the current ground thats partly straddling the border.
I don't think they're alone in having played historically in the Welsh Cup, I think those other border towns, Hereford and Shrewsbury have as well.
Yep definitely a phoenix club on the horizon. Unibond or West Cheshire though?
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Chester supporters have been waiting to start up a new club for months. Bottom division of the Unibond next season I would guess.
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I went to a Wrexham v Chester derby game and the hatred was tangible. Only 6000 in the ground as well.
I believe Chesters original ground lay partly in Wales as well as England which was why they used to play in the Welsh cup many many years ago.
Shame they've gone but I believe there will be a phoenix club set up shortly. Perhaps they'll be called Chester 2010!
No its the current ground thats partly straddling the border.
I don't think they're alone in having played historically in the Welsh Cup, I think those other border towns, Hereford and Shrewsbury have as well.
Yep definitely a phoenix club on the horizon. Unibond or West Cheshire though?
Worcester City used to be in the Welsh Cup as well not sure how they qualified
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Hednesford used to be in it as well. It was basically open to anyone who wanted.
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Hednesford used to be in it as well. It was basically open to anyone who wanted.
but only Welsh winners could qualify for the UEFA Cup.
I think?
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Tranmere & Crewe have both won the Welsh Cup as well.
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I know I pretty much said the same a page ago, but the whole Portsmouth situation really pisses me off.
I foolishly turned on SSN briefly yesterday to see their former Assistant Manager of the ticket office, laid off after 9 years, just one of 83 people to lose their jobs.
Realistically, how much difference is losing a few people from the frontline services really going to effect how much money the club is losing or the way it runs? Why should football creditors be guaranteed what they're owed and why shouldn't the players be taking enforced wage cuts too?
Anyone who's half-decent will be off (probably to Spuds) in the summer anyway, but it really annoys me that the £25k per year they probably save by making this woman redundant could almost certainly be off-set by slashing 10% off the weekly football wage bill. And then some.
Good on SSN for not dwelling on her misery and getting back to promoting the 10+ matches they're showing this and next week tho. I hope they fcuking paid her.
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I believe that only two players offered to take a salary cut. I bet my boots one was David James.
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Most of Pompey problems would be solved if Gail Platt off Corrie took John Utaka out on a boat only for him to mysteriously vanish.
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It's times like this that make me glad to support a stable club
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I believe that only two players offered to take a salary cut. I bet my boots one was David James.
David James may possibly have been one, seeing as he already agreed to waive the clause in his contract that should have seen him automatically be offered a new contract once he had played a certain number of games (and was almost certain to pass it this season), but I don't want them to offer to take a pay-cut. I want one to be enforced.
If they can sack 83 staff members, they can let a few footballers go too. It's not like they've been performing particularly well anyway.
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I foolishly turned on SSN briefly yesterday to see their former Assistant Manager of the ticket office, laid off after 9 years, just one of 83 people to lose their jobs.
Realistically, how much difference is losing a few people from the frontline services really going to effect how much money the club is losing or the way it runs? Why should football creditors be guaranteed what they're owed and why shouldn't the players be taking enforced wage cuts too?
Anyone who's half-decent will be off (probably to Spurs) in the summer anyway, but it really annoys me that the £25k per year they probably save by making this woman redundant could almost certainly be off-set by slashing 10% off the weekly football wage bill. And then some.
Yeah it was sickening especially when one of the ex-staff stated that his annual salary was equivalent to 3 days for one of the players. I'd imagine they would have slashed the wage bill by approx £2m with the job losses but doesnt excuse only 2 players volunteering a salary reduction considering the circumstances, but then I guess they would have had further problems with the PFA and FA if they tried to enforce player salary cuts, and its not as easy as it sounds to get rid of players when they have the protection of agents and contracts.
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What a pity that the most powerful union in the country also has the most despicable members.
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Hednesford used to be in it as well. It was basically open to anyone who wanted.
Stourbridge were runners-up once.
Here's all the English teams who've appeared in the final:-
Shrewsbury Town
Chester City (or should that be Phoenix?)
Telford United
Crewe Alexandra
Hereford United
Tranmere Rovers
Bristol City
South Liverpool
Kidderminster Harriers
Northwich Victoria
Hednesford Town
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I believe that only two players offered to take a salary cut. I bet my boots one was David James.
David James may possibly have been one, seeing as he already agreed to waive the clause in his contract that should have seen him automatically be offered a new contract once he had played a certain number of games (and was almost certain to pass it this season), but I don't want them to offer to take a pay-cut. I want one to be enforced.
If they can sack 83 staff members, they can let a few footballers go too. It's not like they've been performing particularly well anyway.
He didn't just offer a pay cut..... (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/david-james-tries-to-pay-sacked-portsmouth-staffs-wages-1920153.html)
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What a pity that the most powerful union in the country also has the most despicable members.
Oh I don't know. The National Union of Students are a pretty nasty lot.
Granted they're not very powerful. What would their bargaining tool be? Threaten to start work?
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I believe that only two players offered to take a salary cut. I bet my boots one was David James.
David James may possibly have been one, seeing as he already agreed to waive the clause in his contract that should have seen him automatically be offered a new contract once he had played a certain number of games (and was almost certain to pass it this season), but I don't want them to offer to take a pay-cut. I want one to be enforced.
If they can sack 83 staff members, they can let a few footballers go too. It's not like they've been performing particularly well anyway.
He didn't just offer a pay cut..... (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/david-james-tries-to-pay-sacked-portsmouth-staffs-wages-1920153.html)
James is a quality person, did a column in the Observer, bright, literate and gave the fee to charity
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I remember going down to Chester Citys Sealand Road ground when Villa came down in a cup game
Docherty had to come over to the Villa fans in the Sealand Road end to appeal to them to stop fighting as it was delaying the kick off.
Spent many happy days in my youth down at Sealand Road Eric Barnes the chairman in those days stitched them up with the usual ground move sold the ground to build a new Morrisons on which never came they then spent a few years at Moss Rose Macclesfields ground playing in exile eventually a ground was built down by the council tip which does sit half in and out of Wales you couldnt get much further away from the City which
seems about how the powers that be thought about the club
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Weymouth are on the brink (again), will probably be wound up next week owing at least £1.4 million.
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Weren't Weymouth once owned by Ian Ridley, the journalist?
I seem to remember seeing some documentary about it. He had Claridge as his manager, IIRC.
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Oh, and a snippet on Chester I heard today, if a reformed club can keep the Deva (council owned so there's a chance) they might apply to join the Welsh League rather than right down the English pyramid.
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Oh, and a snippet on Chester I heard today, if a reformed club can keep the Deva (council owned so there's a chance) they might apply to join the Welsh League rather than right down the English pyramid.
as Aldershot, Wimbledon and Newport have all shown it can be done through the pyramid, why Wales, no future there
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I doubt they'd do that might just be an idle threat to persuade the relevant authorities to let them back in in the highest division possible.
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I doubt they'd do that might just be an idle threat to persuade the relevant authorities to let them back in in the highest division possible.
The authorities tend not to give a toss about teams like Chester. They go in the LoW they get a good chance of being in Europe.
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No way they would go in that crappy LOW
North West Counties is there starting ground
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What a pity that the most powerful union in the country also has the most despicable members.
Oh I don't know. The National Union of Students are a pretty nasty lot.
Granted they're not very powerful. What would their bargaining tool be? Threaten to start work?
Work?! I'm only 20 - far too young for that! ;-)
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I doubt they'd do that might just be an idle threat to persuade the relevant authorities to let them back in in the highest division possible.
The authorities tend not to give a toss about teams like Chester. They go in the LoW they get a good chance of being in Europe.
Maybe. But don't most Chester fans hate the Welsh? Can't see it happening. There's no point giving up any hope of playing proper league football just for the privilege of losing eight nil to the fifth best team from Estonia or Finland every year.
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I believe that only two players offered to take a salary cut. I bet my boots one was David James.
David James may possibly have been one, seeing as he already agreed to waive the clause in his contract that should have seen him automatically be offered a new contract once he had played a certain number of games (and was almost certain to pass it this season), but I don't want them to offer to take a pay-cut. I want one to be enforced.
If they can sack 83 staff members, they can let a few footballers go too. It's not like they've been performing particularly well anyway.
He didn't just offer a pay cut..... (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/david-james-tries-to-pay-sacked-portsmouth-staffs-wages-1920153.html)
James is a quality person, did a column in the Observer, bright, literate and gave the fee to charity
I normally take great pleasure in booing David James whenever we've played him since he flapped like a budgie in the FACFinal that never happened and then left us for that big club West Ham... but if that's true, then I'll have to reconsider my plan to do so when I go to Fratton Park next month.
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I doubt they'd do that might just be an idle threat to persuade the relevant authorities to let them back in in the highest division possible.
The authorities tend not to give a toss about teams like Chester. They go in the LoW they get a good chance of being in Europe.
Maybe. But don't most Chester fans hate the Welsh? Can't see it happening. There's no point giving up any hope of playing proper league football just for the privilege of losing eight nil to the fifth best team from Estonia or Finland every year.
I thought the same, but the rumour came from someone who is generally very clued up about these things, ach, we'll wait and see.
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I believe that only two players offered to take a salary cut. I bet my boots one was David James.
David James may possibly have been one, seeing as he already agreed to waive the clause in his contract that should have seen him automatically be offered a new contract once he had played a certain number of games (and was almost certain to pass it this season), but I don't want them to offer to take a pay-cut. I want one to be enforced.
If they can sack 83 staff members, they can let a few footballers go too. It's not like they've been performing particularly well anyway.
He didn't just offer a pay cut..... (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/david-james-tries-to-pay-sacked-portsmouth-staffs-wages-1920153.html)
James is a quality person, did a column in the Observer, bright, literate and gave the fee to charity
I normally take great pleasure in booing David James whenever we've played him since he flapped like a budgie in the FACFinal that never happened and then left us for that big club West Ham... but if that's true, then I'll have to reconsider my plan to do so when I go to Fratton Park next month.
he also rejects the big time charlie lifestyle, drives 'sensible' cars, very much a family man, learnt those painful lessons at Liverpool
I have the ultimate respect for him, Milner and Bullard as people and footballers
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Why on earth would a resurrected Chester City want to join the Welsh League?
As the "English" club, they'd get nothing but grief wherever they go, to say nothing of the grief the good citizens of Chester would get every other Saturday.
From a footballing point of view too, it doesn't make sense. They might get to play in the upper reaches of the LOW pretty quickly, but then what? I know some have said about European football, but I thought that there were UEFA rules preventing clubs representing a football association that they weren’t members of? Hence the reason that when in the past English clubs won the Welsh Cup they couldn’t play in Europe the following season.
Far better to start in the NW Counties, or whatever, and if, like Accrington, it takes 30-odd years to regain Football League status, so be it.
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Chester's ground is half in England, half in Wales. They could probably join either FA without much effort.
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I believe that only two players offered to take a salary cut. I bet my boots one was David James.
David James may possibly have been one, seeing as he already agreed to waive the clause in his contract that should have seen him automatically be offered a new contract once he had played a certain number of games (and was almost certain to pass it this season), but I don't want them to offer to take a pay-cut. I want one to be enforced.
If they can sack 83 staff members, they can let a few footballers go too. It's not like they've been performing particularly well anyway.
He didn't just offer a pay cut..... (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/david-james-tries-to-pay-sacked-portsmouth-staffs-wages-1920153.html)
James is a quality person, did a column in the Observer, bright, literate and gave the fee to charity
I normally take great pleasure in booing David James whenever we've played him since he flapped like a budgie in the FACFinal that never happened and then left us for that big club West Ham... but if that's true, then I'll have to reconsider my plan to do so when I go to Fratton Park next month.
he also rejects the big time charlie lifestyle, drives 'sensible' cars, very much a family man, learnt those painful lessons at Liverpool
I have the ultimate respect for him, Milner and Bullard as people and footballers
David James might now like to think of himself as the model professional, but more so than flapping at a Cup Final corner, I can't ever quite forgive him for jumping on the Southgate-instigated "lack of ambition" bandwagon.
Perhaps the last season and a half should be his lesson as to where unfettered ambition - i.e. spending as if there's no tomorrow - ultimately ends up.
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maybe topdeck you ought to put aside the events of 10 years ago and realise people change
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What a pity that the most powerful union in the country also has the most despicable members.
Oh I don't know. The National Union of Students are a pretty nasty lot.
Granted they're not very powerful. What would their bargaining tool be? Threaten to start work?
Ha ha, liked that one! The Students' Union at Brum Uni was actually called "the Guild" which sounds a lot less left wing and far more like they're skilled tradesmen.
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maybe topdeck you ought to put aside the events of 10 years ago and realise people change
Ali Brown, Steve H0dge, Robbie Savage... Football fans, like elephants, never forget!
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Link (http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-city-fc/chester-city-fc-news/2010/03/11/chester-city-fc-city-fans-united-ramp-up-preparations-for-birth-of-phoenix-club-59067-26006374/) to article saying Chester fans' group wants new club to play in English, not Welsh pyramid.
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What a pity that the most powerful union in the country also has the most despicable members.
Oh I don't know. The National Union of Students are a pretty nasty lot.
Granted they're not very powerful. What would their bargaining tool be? Threaten to start work?
Ha ha, liked that one! The Students' Union at Brum Uni was actually called "the Guild" which sounds a lot less left wing and far more like they're skilled tradesmen.
Only kidding ex-student Risso.
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What a pity that the most powerful union in the country also has the most despicable members.
Oh I don't know. The National Union of Students are a pretty nasty lot.
Granted they're not very powerful. What would their bargaining tool be? Threaten to start work?
Ha ha, liked that one! The Students' Union at Brum Uni was actually called "the Guild" which sounds a lot less left wing and far more like they're skilled tradesmen.
Only kidding ex-student Risso.
I know you were matey, which is why I said I found it funny!
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he also rejects the big time charlie lifestyle, drives 'sensible' cars, very much a family man, learnt those painful lessons at Liverpool
I have the ultimate respect for him
Didn't he leave his wife and 4 kids to shack up with an old girlfriend after meeting up with her on friendsreunited?
Although a mate of mine did some decorating at James's house when he was at the Villa and he did say he was a decent fella. Smokes like a chimney, by all accounts
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What a pity that the most powerful union in the country also has the most despicable members.
Oh I don't know. The National Union of Students are a pretty nasty lot.
Granted they're not very powerful. What would their bargaining tool be? Threaten to start work?
Ha ha, liked that one! The Students' Union at Brum Uni was actually called "the Guild" which sounds a lot less left wing and far more like they're skilled tradesmen.
That might have more to do with the fact that Birmingham was the first Red Brick University, no such thing as unions then.
Like minded people form a Guild, that could be deemed as something near a union or a bunch of people advocating sleeping in till 12pm.
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he also rejects the big time charlie lifestyle, drives 'sensible' cars, very much a family man, learnt those painful lessons at Liverpool
I have the ultimate respect for him
Didn't he leave his wife and 4 kids to shack up with an old girlfriend after meeting up with her on friendsreunited?
He did indeed.
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P Diddy interested in buying Palace according to the current bun - "He liked the name as well" (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2897149/Rapper-P-Diddy-to-save-Crystal-Palace.html)
With the aim of turning them from a yo-yo club to a 'Yo Yo!' club
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P Diddy interested in buying Palace according to the current bun - "He liked the name as well" (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/2897149/Rapper-P-Diddy-to-save-Crystal-Palace.html)
With the aim of turning them from a yo-yo club to a 'Yo Yo!' club
or a Ho Ho club
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Excellent news for Palace fans.
They'll be known as: Cryssie, Crys, C Pally and/or C Pilly.
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Soon to be Cristal Palace, private members club
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Expect Hull to go the way of Portsmouth when they're relegated:
Going concern problems (http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2259558/hull-city-faces-going-concern)
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Expect Hull to go the way of Portsmouth when they're relegated:
Going concern problems (http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2259558/hull-city-faces-going-concern)
I expect a whole raft of going concern issues as more football clubs file their year end accounts!
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I'm still waiting to see what happens to 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' if/when they don't qualify for next year's Champions League!
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Excellent news for Palace fans.
They'll be known as: Cryssie, Crys, C Pally and/or C Pilly.
HA HA, excellent stuff Troy!
Expect Hull to go the way of Portsmouth when they're relegated:
Going concern problems (http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2259558/hull-city-faces-going-concern)
I expect a whole raft of going concern issues as more football clubs file their year end accounts!
How have Hull managed to get themselves in such difficulty? It's not as though they've really bought anyone of any note or any great expense (other than Injury Bullard).
Being too lazy to dig too far, is this a case of them overspending on their way up the divisions or is the cost of the new stadium also part of it?
I know they don't get massive crowds and assume they don't pay Spuds-like prices to attend, but I'd always assumed they were being relatively well and tightly run.
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Being too lazy to dig too far, is this a case of them overspending on their way up the divisions or is the cost of the new stadium also part of it?
I know they don't get massive crowds and assume they don't pay Spurs-like prices to attend, but I'd always assumed they were being relatively well and tightly run.
Hull council owns the stadium, as they paid for it to be rebuilt. Their problems are entirely down to overspending.
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I think Hull's problems stem from paying huge wages to average players.
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The trouble is a club like Hull had to pay high wages to average players just to get them there. Its a no win situaton. They need about three seasons in the PL to raise money and to become more established ....
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I'm still waiting to see what happens to Liverpool if/when they don't qualify for next year's Champions League!
I wonder if the powers that be will find a way to give them a CL spot if they manage to win the Europe League. Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest.
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I think Hull's problems stem from paying huge wages to average players.
I heard the sun bed bill was huge ;-)
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I think Hull's problems stem from paying huge wages to average players.
I heard the sun bed bill was huge ;-)
Will be halfed now Phils gone .........
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Their chairman should try to exploit different revenue streams. Official Bullard and Dowie Gargoyles/Grotesques might be a good idea for merchandising.
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I wonder if we'll finally start to see the effect of financial hardship in clubs reflected in players obscene salaries?
Chairmen surely now must realise that they're perilously close to the end of the rainbow and the pot of gold isn't big enough to cover costs?
And, clearly, we're not just talking about the smaller clubs here. Villa's wage bill is stupid. Liverpool could well be in the shit when they don't get CL. The next few years for Man Utd will be interesting as I'm sure they can only refinance so many times before their financiers realise it's all a big piss-take and then we're seeing more and more smaller clubs mentioned in this thread.
Sooner or later, players will have very limited clubs at which to suck their money from. They'll be forced to take a pay cut. And I for one, hope it's a trend that continues for a long time to come.
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I was just looking at the clubs near the bottom and their remaining fixtures.
Even if Portsmouth win 6 of their 8 remaining games, they'll still go down I think.
They can now be officially classed as a club in trouble *winky-binky emoticon*
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Oh dear oh dear oh dear (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/crystal_palace/8714650.stm)
Crystal Palace could be liquidated unless the group trying to buy the club can seal a deal by 1500 BST on Tuesday.
CPFC 2010 has been given the deadline by Agilo, the hedge fund that put the Eagles into administration in January.
The group has agreed terms on a deal to buy the club but will not proceed until they secure Selhurst Park, which is being sold by Bank of Scotland.
But a statement from CPFC 2010 on the Palace website says the deal presented by the bank is "unworkable".
CPFC 2010, a group of local businessmen headed by Palace fans Steve Parish and Martin Long, were named as the administrators' preferred bidders in March.
However, with the deadline to buy the club now looming, the Championship club could be no more if the consortium fails to reach an agreement to buy Selhurst Park.
The statement read: "We are trying to acquire both Crystal Palace Football Club and Selhurst Park.
"Everyone would agree Selhurst Park is pivotal to the long-term future of the club and CPFC 2010 have always made it clear they will not proceed without securing it.
"We reached what we thought was an agreement with Bank of Scotland, who are the major creditor of Selhurst Park Ltd.
"Subsequent to this agreement we have been sent a contract that does not reflect this agreement and is unworkable."
The sticking point in the negotiations appears to be over how much money the bank would receive if Selhurst Park was re-sold in the future.
Bank of Scotland have agreed to sell the ground to CPFC 2010 for a price lower that what a property developer may be prepared to pay but has asked for a share of any profit if it was sold again.
The consortium claim they have agreed to an "anti-embarrassment clause that allows the bank to see a further return if we realise greater value from the ground in the future."
However, the two parties now seem to disagree on how much that "further return" would be.
The statement continued: "It seems that the bank want to make an unlimited return in the future even if that value is created on the back of the success of the football club or money we have invested in a new infrastructure.
"We believe that the maximum they should make is the difference between what we will pay for the land as a football ground and what a property developer will pay now as a development opportunity plus interest."
The statement concludes by saying: "Bank of Scotland is currently government owned. As such we would urge the new Prime Minister to intervene personally to resolve the situation or see a club supported by many thousands, and with a 100-year history, consigned to the scrapheap."
Palace avoided relegation from the Championship on the final day of the season with a 2-2 draw at Sheffield Wednesday that condemned the Owls to League One.
The club currently does not have the money to pay its staff their wages for May and on Friday made 29 people redundant.
Fans were planning to hold a demonstration at Selhurst Park on Monday to highlight the club's plight.
Sad, always had a soft spot for Palace.
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What happened to the Puff Daddy buy out?
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He thought it was a big fuck off mansion made out of glass.
He was rather disappointed when he found out it was a Second Division football team.
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Palace are safe for now....
Very pleased... no club should have to fall like this...
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I can see there ground from my bedroom window.
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I can see there ground from my bedroom window.
You may have an Asda soon.
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I can see there ground from my bedroom window.
You may have an Asda soon.
Great! That drive to Purley Way can be a real bugger at times.
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Salisbury City have been chucked out of the Conference for not paying their tax bill and (subject to an appeal) will play in the Southern League.
The new Chester club meanwhile have been given a place in the North West Counties Premier League.
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Chester are appealing against being placed in the North West Counties League
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Chester are appealing against being placed in the North West Counties League
I saw that but I can't see why. They are a brand new club and in my opinion are lucky to be placed at Step 5. If I was the FA I'd listen to the whinging sods and then inform them that they've had a change of heart and will be placing Chester FC in Division 2 of the Cheshire League alongside Grappenhall Sports and Barnton.
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Man United. A big investigation by the Guardian/BBC into the troubled finances of the Glaziers. Basically, they currently can't afford to sell Man Utd as it's the only source of income for the family.
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/07/glazers-manchester-united-fortunes-wane[/url)
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Man United. A big investigation by the Guardian/BBC into the troubled finances of the Glaziers. Basically, they currently can't afford to sell Man Utd as it's the only source of income for the family.
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/07/glazers-manchester-united-fortunes-wane[/url)
i'm failing to see any downside to this story
*looks again*
nope.
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Man United. A big investigation by the Guardian/BBC into the troubled finances of the Glaziers. Basically, they currently can't afford to sell Man Utd as it's the only source of income for the family.
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/07/glazers-manchester-united-fortunes-wane[/url)
i'm failing to see any downside to this story
*looks again*
nope.
So long as Man U do not owe us anything itisn't too much of a problem for Villa, except it would be a blow to the prestioge of the PL if Man U went broke. But it would present another opportunity for a place in the CL.
But one day, hopefully not soon Randy will selll Villa. I see nothing going on at the FA to stop a leveraged buy out at Villa in the future.
Give it a couple of seasons or so and I suspect Man U will be where Liverpool are now, broke.
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Man United. A big investigation by the Guardian/BBC into the troubled finances of the Glaziers. Basically, they currently can't afford to sell Man Utd as it's the only source of income for the family.
Clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/07/glazers-manchester-united-fortunes-wane[/url)
i'm failing to see any downside to this story
*looks again*
nope.
So long as Man U do not owe us anything itisn't too much of a problem for Villa, except it would be a blow to the prestioge of the PL if Man U went broke. But it would present another opportunity for a place in the CL.
But one day, hopefully not soon Randy will selll Villa. I see nothing going on at the FA to stop a leveraged buy out at Villa in the future.
Give it a couple of seasons or so and I suspect Man U will be where Liverpool are now, broke.
If Man United and Liverpool, two of their biggest names go tits up I'm sure it will act as a warning sign for them to introduce legislation to prevent it happening.
It would be a bit of a shame for their fans. The genuine ones that is. It is the only downside of it and it is far outweighed by the upsides summed up by pointing and laughing.
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Sorry to piss on the parade, but there is no chance in hell that Liverpool or Man Utd will go tits up. If things really start heading towards that there would be a queue of oil barons willing to buy them up.
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Sorry to piss on the parade, but there is no chance in hell that Liverpool or Man Utd will go tits up. If things really start heading towards that there would be a queue of oil barons willing to buy them up.
This.
Anybody who thinks the likes of Man U, Liverpool or Chelsea for that matter are going to go bust and disappear are living in a fantasy world where there is no Coca Cola, Starbucks, Mafia or Catholic Church. Barring some cataclysmic 2012-type doomsday event, they will always be around and they will always be more powerful than we are. A horrible truth.
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Sorry to piss on the parade, but there is no chance in hell that Liverpool or Man Utd will go tits up. If things really start heading towards that there would be a queue of oil barons willing to buy them up.
Just because they are big clubs, doesn't mean the same business principles that apply to the likes of Portsmouth, West Ham and Palace do not apply to them. Its just that the scale is much much bigger.
I suspect there are some 'oil barons' watching the situation at Liverpool, but they do not appear to be jumping in just yet. They may well be letting the value drop and then they will come in and buy as cheaply as possible.
Business is business and if Liverpool have hit the tipping point and cannot meet their interest payments their situation will only deteriorate. There is no point in H & G selling for nothing more than the amount of debt. They will get nothing. So they sit there and the club withers on the vine.
The same could happen to Man U.
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Yes, well, don't hold your breath.
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Just because they are big clubs, doesn't mean the same business principles that apply to the likes of Portsmouth, West Ham and Palace do not apply to them. Its just that the scale is much much bigger.
The difference is Portsmouth couldn't attract a rich owner to make all their troubles go away. Liverpool or Man U could.
I suppose the only thing is that sheer size of debts mean an increasingly limited number of investors could actually do this.
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Just because they are big clubs, doesn't mean the same business principles that apply to the likes of Portsmouth, West Ham and Palace do not apply to them. Its just that the scale is much much bigger.
The difference is Portsmouth couldn't attract a rich owner to make all their troubles go away. Liverpool or Man U could.
I suppose the only thing is that sheer size of debts mean an increasingly limited number of investors could actually do this.
The situation at Liverpool is more similar to West Ham than Portsmouth because the banks are the main creditors. The banks will be reluctant to allow the debt to increase, but neither will they want to force the club into Administration let alone liquidation.
I thought it was noticeable the two porn kings did a deal at west ham when the club were sliding into a relegation situation. At that point the banks may have compromised their demands so a deal was struck at what S & G thought was the best time.
The same could happen at Liverpool with potential buyers forcing the banks to take control from H & G who will otherwise not sell unless they get something out of it. The whole thing could get really messy.
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Yes, well, don't hold your breath.
Liverpool are fcuked and I can see them finishing 8th or 9th next season lower than this season.
Think I'll take the situation where we're also finishing above Manure every season.
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Yes, well, don't hold your breath.
Liverpool are fcuked and I can see them finishing 8th or 9th next season lower than this season.
Think I'll take the situation where we're also finishing above Manure every season.
I agree, so does Martin Samuels of the Daily Mail, only for reasons i had not considered.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1283797/If-Liverpool-wrong-heading-footballing-oblivion.html
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considering some of the comments coming from the bin dipper fans during their gareth barry humiliation, and a comment i read yesterday about the "hilarious indignity of being linked to aston villa's manager", i couldnt think of a better situation to happen to a more disgusting bunch of cretins than for them having to climb off their matchstick leg high horses and slum it in the real world...
for their excellent work at the bin dippers, i think we should knight the fat waiter, along with mo and curly...
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Yes, well, don't hold your breath.
Liverpool are fcuked and I can see them finishing 8th or 9th next season lower than this season.
Think I'll take the situation where we're also finishing above Manure every season.
I agree, so does Martin Samuels of the Daily Mail, only for reasons i had not considered.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1283797/If-Liverpool-wrong-heading-footballing-oblivion.html
Quite a good piece that!
It's interesting what he says about the impending new financial rules and clubs surviving on turnover alone. That would put those in the CL at considerable disadvantage and may make breaking in even harder. Although I wonder how they'll apply it to Real madrid?
Anyway, I just think that clubs will find a way around the new rules - Liverpool included should they get new owners!
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Clubs got round the rules that prevented them from floating by starting up holding companies. They'll do similar for any new regulations.
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For those too young to remember a time when the mousers were the single dominant force in world football; I would just like to say: fcuk them, fcuk them all. You were loathesome then and you are loathesome still.
That is all.
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Quite a good piece that!
It's interesting what he says about the impending new financial rules and clubs surviving on turnover alone. That would put those in the CL at considerable disadvantage and may make breaking in even harder. Although I wonder how they'll apply it to Real madrid?
Anyway, I just think that clubs will find a way around the new rules - Liverpool included should they get new owners!
it wouldnt put them at a disadvantage...
they get the champions league finances more than those without it to add to their turnover...
its nothing more than double glazing the glass ceiling, under the guise of "fair play", so that eufa have their unnoficial european super league...
certainly makes breaking in even harder...
(unless you meant it put those in the champions league at a considerable advantage)
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Clubs got round the rules that prevented them from floating by starting up holding companies. They'll do similar for any new regulations.
indeed... there will always be ways for clubs to legally get around the rules...
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(unless you meant it put those in the champions league at a considerable advantage)
Yep, that's what I meant - it was a typo on my part!
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Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the new rules also put a limit on debt. That was why The Russian wrote off the debt to himself from Chelsea, by issuing new shares to himself.
While the Russian can do that at Chelsea and randy could do it at Villa, it is hard to see how it could be done at Man U and Liverpool where the debt is to banks and financial institutions.
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The debt is to the Lerner family trust and not Randy personally, although I'm sure he could leverage it some way if necessary.
With Man U at least, I thought it was a new holding company they created to buy the club that held the debt, although I may have that wrong!
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The debt is to the Lerner family trust and not Randy personally, although I'm sure he could leverage it some way if necessary.
With Man U at least, I thought it was a new holding company they created to buy the club that held the debt, although I may have that wrong!
If what you say about Man U is correct it will presumably rest with the enthusiasm of EUFA to enforce the rules. I think Liverpool are the same with Kop FC Ltd.
Wasn't there an argument recently in England about a holding company going into administration and the club trying to avoid the points deduction? It went against the club I think.
It would be a complete farce if clubs could avoid the rules in such a simplistic way.
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If Salisbury City's appeal in unsuccessful and they are demoted, will another side take their place in the conference?
Or will it be a 23 team league, like the end of last season when Chester City were struck off?
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If Salisbury City's appeal in unsuccessful and they are demoted, will another side take their place in the conference?
Or will it be a 23 team league, like the end of last season when Chester City were struck off?
Forest Green will be reprieved.
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Imagine this in the Premier League?
http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/sport/8206799.Cheddar_cheesed_off_with_Terras/
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The debt is to the Lerner family trust and not Randy personally, although I'm sure he could leverage it some way if necessary.
With Man U at least, I thought it was a new holding company they created to buy the club that held the debt, although I may have that wrong!
If what you say about Man U is correct it will presumably rest with the enthusiasm of EUFA to enforce the rules. I think Liverpool are the same with Kop FC Ltd.
Wasn't there an argument recently in England about a holding company going into administration and the club trying to avoid the points deduction? It went against the club I think.
It would be a complete farce if clubs could avoid the rules in such a simplistic way.
they cant
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Imagine this in the Premier League?
http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/sport/8206799.Cheddar_cheesed_off_with_Terras/
Surely someone at their Football Association would've spotted the error sooner.
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They can't? Maybe not in a simplistic way.
But if you think that there's no way that an astute club chairman, combined with a few immensely paid lawyers couldn't figure out of way of bypassing any of this, you have a surprise coming your way.
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Rumours flowing in with the desert breeze out here that Sheikh Khalifa, of Burj Khalifa fame, is interested in buying Liverpool? And he's got a bob or two.
Doesn't he know that they're finished?
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I wanna see a Danny DeVito-esque character come in, in the style of "Other People's Money" and break it all up.
I'd enjoy that.
Certain clubs really are ******-ish and deserve a massive come-uppance.
Man Utd
Liverpool
Chelsea
Man City.
Surely someone, somewhere can arrange the slight mis-programming of a few cruise-missiles?
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Athough it isn't by any means this simple, what we need to remember is that, what Man City are to us, we are to lots of other clubs.
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I don't recall seeing Villa fans dressed as Arab's with "Considerably Richer Than Yow" placards, whining on message boards that other clubs are screwing up the transfer market by holding them to ransom, carrying on like they can just buy who they want, when they want.
I do know what you mean, though. More money, better facilities, etc. But Man City are just so fucking crass. I can't make up my mind if they're just bluenoses who've won the lottery or Chelsea without London.
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Since the Randy era began, we've done a few things that have probably portrayed us well to other fans:-
1. Given young English players a chance.
2. The compliments from Leeds over our handling of the Delph signing.
3. Pissing off Liverpool and the FSW over Barry.
4. Acorns.
5. Not won anything.
We may not necessarily be liked by others, but we're not hated in the same way some are.
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Since the Randy era began, we've done a few things that have probably portrayed us well to other fans:-
1. Given young English players a chance.
2. The compliments from Leeds over our handling of the Delph signing.
3. Pissing off Liverpool and the FSW over Barry.
4. Acorns.
5. Not won anything.
We may not necessarily be liked by others, but we're not hated in the same way some are.
Depends where you are john- if I put a villa sticker in my car I would guarantee my windows would be put through in a day-the hatred of villa here is incredible.
My brother in law never spoke to my wife for many yrs because she married a villa fan!
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Since the Randy era began, we've done a few things that have probably portrayed us well to other fans:-
1. Given young English players a chance.
2. The compliments from Leeds over our handling of the Delph signing.
3. Pissing off Liverpool and the FSW over Barry.
4. Acorns.
5. Not won anything.
We may not necessarily be liked by others, but we're not hated in the same way some are.
Depends where you are john- if I put a villa sticker in my car I would guarantee my windows would be put through in a day-the hatred of villa here is incredible.
My brother in law never spoke to my wife for many yrs because she married a villa fan!
OK, I'll qualify that to say we're not hated in civilization.
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Since the Randy era began, we've done a few things that have probably portrayed us well to other fans:-
1. Given young English players a chance.
2. The compliments from Leeds over our handling of the Delph signing.
3. Pissing off Liverpool and the FSW over Barry.
4. Acorns.
5. Not won anything.
We may not necessarily be liked by others, but we're not hated in the same way some are.
Depends where you are john- if I put a villa sticker in my car I would guarantee my windows would be put through in a day-the hatred of villa here is incredible.
My brother in law never spoke to my wife for many yrs because she married a villa fan!
OK, I'll qualify that to say we're not hated in civilization.
Or the 21st century.
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If Salisbury City's appeal in unsuccessful and they are demoted, will another side take their place in the conference?
Or will it be a 23 team league, like the end of last season when Chester City were struck off?
Forest Green will be reprieved.
Really? I quite like Forest Green.
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If Salisbury City's appeal in unsuccessful and they are demoted, will another side take their place in the conference?
Or will it be a 23 team league, like the end of last season when Chester City were struck off?
Forest Green will be reprieved.
Really? I quite like Forest Green.
I had you down as a Salmon Pink kind of guy!
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I was wondering if they'd have a play-off between the Conference North and South sides that lost in their league's play-off final earlier, but it probably does make more sense to say that the highest placed relegated side stays up.
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I was wondering if they'd have a play-off between the Conference North and South sides that lost in their league's play-off final earlier, but it probably does make more sense to say that the highest placed relegated side stays up.
'Tis the standard way these days, Forrest Gump stay in the Conference and if Salisbury do drop right down into the Southern League then Weston-Super-Mud also get a reprieve in Conference South - for the third year running!
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My local social club is in trouble, anyone want to go for a pint?
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Shit, yeah.
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Stockport Country out of administration yesterday, so the County-supporting lass who works next to me tells me. She whooped with joy when she found out
Gary Abblet's gome though
Bring back Jim Gannon
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I was wondering if they'd have a play-off between the Conference North and South sides that lost in their league's play-off final earlier, but it probably does make more sense to say that the highest placed relegated side stays up.
'Tis the standard way these days, Forrest Gump stay in the Conference and if Salisbury do drop right down into the Southern League then Weston-Super-Mud also get a reprieve in Conference South - for the third year running!
Didn't Altrincham get a reprieve for 2/3 seasons on the trot because of other teams going under?
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I was wondering if they'd have a play-off between the Conference North and South sides that lost in their league's play-off final earlier, but it probably does make more sense to say that the highest placed relegated side stays up.
'Tis the standard way these days, Forrest Gump stay in the Conference and if Salisbury do drop right down into the Southern League then Weston-Super-Mud also get a reprieve in Conference South - for the third year running!
Didn't Altrincham get a reprieve for 2/3 seasons on the trot because of other teams going under?
Not sure but I know Northwich Victoria did for a while.
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Didn't Altrincham get a reprieve for 2/3 seasons on the trot because of other teams going under?
Three.
In 2006 they finished rock bottom and well adrift and were saved by Scarborough and Canvey Island going bust and then Boston getting relegated from the league but being sent straight to Conference North because of financial irregularities. (Tamworth also got reprieved that season but we'll gloss over that!).
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As Dave says Altrincham saved three years in a row in the AGM Cup. I heard Forest Green fans were praying on the last day of the season about finishing in the highest relegation spot because it was well known Salisbury were likely to get booted out for their finances and they'd be the latest reciepients of AGM Cup success.
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Salisbury are staying full-time in the Southern League. Halesowen are charging £500 for a trial.
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So Forest Green stayed up then?
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So Forest Green stayed up then?
Yes.
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From the Beeb -
Portsmouth could go out of business if they lose their court case against the tax authorities on Thursday, according to the club's lawyer.
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs says it is owed £13m more than the £24m claimed by Portsmouth's administrators.
Richard Sheldon QC says that if HMRC wins, the club will "not be able to give the Football League the assurances it needs to fulfil its fixtures".
"It will go out of the league. The club will probably be liquidated," he added.
High Court judge Mr Justice Mann, who is overseeing the tax liability case, will hand down his decision between 1500 BST and 1600 BST on Thursday.
Portsmouth's lawyer, Sheldon, added that if the club loses the case then it would prevent former owner Balram Chainrai, who put the club into administration in February, buying it for a second time.
Sheldon added: "If the club is not sold it will clearly be relegated out of the Football League.
"The administrators cannot give the assurances needed that this season's fixtures can be completed.
"It will then go out of the Football League and into some distant league, but the reality is that it will probably go into liquidation because the administrators will not be able to fund the continued business."
Earlier on Wednesday Sheldon claimed that Premier League clubs wanted Portsmouth to go bust last season when the full extent of their financial problems emerged.
Sheldon told the court that it was only the intervention of Premier League chief Richard Scudamore that saved the club.
The other clubs wanted "to boot Pompey out there and then", Sheldon said.
He added: "The clubs wanted Portsmouth to go to the wall and divide all the TV money among themselves."
That prospect was avoided, however, when Scudamore persuaded the clubs to give Pompey an early parachute payment, allowing them to complete the season.
Portsmouth, who remain in administration, were docked nine points for becoming the first Premier League club to go into administration and were duly relegated at the end of the season.
A couple of points from that article stand out -
Firstly, that the current owner wants to buy them back (Something that should never be allowed) and secondly that the other Premier League clubs last season tried to get them kicked out of the league.
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From the Beeb -
Portsmouth could go out of business if they lose their court case against the tax authorities on Thursday, according to the club's lawyer.
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs says it is owed £13m more than the £24m claimed by Portsmouth's administrators.
Richard Sheldon QC says that if HMRC wins, the club will "not be able to give the Football League the assurances it needs to fulfil its fixtures".
"It will go out of the league. The club will probably be liquidated," he added.
High Court judge Mr Justice Mann, who is overseeing the tax liability case, will hand down his decision between 1500 BST and 1600 BST on Thursday.
Portsmouth's lawyer, Sheldon, added that if the club loses the case then it would prevent former owner Balram Chainrai, who put the club into administration in February, buying it for a second time.
Sheldon added: "If the club is not sold it will clearly be relegated out of the Football League.
"The administrators cannot give the assurances needed that this season's fixtures can be completed.
"It will then go out of the Football League and into some distant league, but the reality is that it will probably go into liquidation because the administrators will not be able to fund the continued business."
Earlier on Wednesday Sheldon claimed that Premier League clubs wanted Portsmouth to go bust last season when the full extent of their financial problems emerged.
Sheldon told the court that it was only the intervention of Premier League chief Richard Scudamore that saved the club.
The other clubs wanted "to boot Pompey out there and then", Sheldon said.
He added: "The clubs wanted Portsmouth to go to the wall and divide all the TV money among themselves."
That prospect was avoided, however, when Scudamore persuaded the clubs to give Pompey an early parachute payment, allowing them to complete the season.
Portsmouth, who remain in administration, were docked nine points for becoming the first Premier League club to go into administration and were duly relegated at the end of the season.
A couple of points from that article stand out -
Firstly, that the current owner wants to buy them back (Something that should never be allowed) and secondly that the other Premier League clubs last season tried to get them kicked out of the league.
I think the QC is trying to win sympathy support.
In my opinion, it seems too easy now for clubs to go into administration and therefore the risks of poor financial administration are reduced.
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The main point missed out of that article is the reason HMRC have taken them back to court, namely that they "allegedly" tried to defraud the system by not paying their players actual wages, rather they paid then non-taxable Image Rights.
If they did this then frankly they are in deep shit. The Football League are already talking about a fifty point deduction, yep - 50 points! Basically relegating them again, and quite right in my opinion.
As per usual I really do feel for Pompey supporters, it's not their fault, although they weren't complaining too bitterly at Wembley! I suppose it's a shame that the football club and by association, it's supporters, has to take the punishment for shit owners, but I can't see any way round it until the FA gets it's act together to stop shitehawks taking over football clubs.
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If the "image rights" fraud is proved then Portsmouth should be relegated.
I suspect that several other clubs will be worried as well. I can't believe that Portsmouth were the only club operating such a system.
As for the second part of the case, I hope that HMRC are able to show that the "football creditors getting paid in full" rule for Admins/CVAs is unfair/invalid/illegal.
I've never understood why football clubs don't have to abide by the normal rules of insolvency.
I have some sympathy for Portsmouth, in that they're being used as the test-case for this. However, its well past due that this "preference" system was challenged
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In general I'm not in favour of the legal system 'making an example' out of one particular person/case as I feel they should all be judged on their own merits, but that's exactly what I think is going to happen to Pompey!
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I hope we were not one of the teams to say "Fuck em lets split their money"
They should be named and shamed
If that is how the game is going then i have just fallen even deeper out of love with it.
I may be wrong but why does the whole club, its supporters and the economy it provides around match day for local folk have to be punished for some dodgy practicies at board / accounting level
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I hope we were not one of the teams to say "Fuck em lets split their money"
They should be named and shamed
If that is how the game is going then i have just fallen even deeper out of love with it.
I may be wrong but why does the whole club, its supporters and the economy it provides around match day for local folk have to be punished for some dodgy practicies at board / accounting level
Not sure if we would have been but Liverpool and some other would have as they would have jumped places due to other clubs (including us) having points taken off us.
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I hope we were not one of the teams to say "Fuck em lets split their money"
They should be named and shamed
If that is how the game is going then i have just fallen even deeper out of love with it.
I thought it was a unanimous decision to chuck them out and it was only Scudamore who intervened?
Does any one know if it was a split vote?
I may be wrong but why does the whole club, its supporters and the economy it provides around match day for local folk have to be punished for some dodgy practicies at board / accounting level
Same as any business really. If it is proved that the owner / directors / accountants broke the law then separate cases could be bought against them, but the business will still be bankrupt.
Football needs a proper way of vetting potential owners, not the bollocks they have at the moment. "Fit and Proper" my hairy anus in a lot of cases.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8886009.stm
I'm surprised that, having come this far, HMRC aren't appealing.
Da Beeb this morning were saying that HMRC were looking at other ways of challenging the "football creditors" loophole.
That loophole is my main problem with this whole situation. Remember that if HMRC don't get paid, that's less money for the Govt and therefore less money for public services or more tax to be paid by the public.
HMRC need to start insisting that football clubs pay their tax on time and clamp down on those that don't.
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The football creditors thing does need looking at, it is just wrong that a millionaire footballer will get 100% of any money owed to him while a struggling catering company will e lucky to get 5p in the pound.
But...it was bought in to protect players and clubs much lower down the pyramid. For a non-league club £10,000 owed for a transfer could be enough to put them in debt trouble as well, and lower league footballers don't get paid the daft money Pompey were paying.
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I think that the HMRC were going to court more to make a point. They knew they weren't going to get more and the judge did mention that he didn't know what they wanted as they had their money back. Their argument was that football's rules needed to be changed.
It is ludicrous that a club can over stretch itself, buy success on the back of it, then when the taxman wants what they are owed the club can say that they can't afford it. If you or I were to do that we'd have harsher penalties.
I definitely feel for the fans at Portsmouth but somewhere soon the taxman is going to have to make a stand, be backed up by the courts, that football really needs to get its house in order and stop getting high returns for players and directors whilst everyone else gets screwed.
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I heard last night on Five live that HMRC have a Court case starting against the Premier League and Football league in a couple of months(?) regarding the "Football creditors must get 100% rule."
The bloke talking said he believed they had made a mistake going after Pompey as a club as it is a League issue and in the League rules - therefore they should have thrown everything against the Leagues to prove that the rule is wrong. He said that is why they have not appealed against the Pompey decision so as not to weaken their case any further for the future trial.
Apparently the PL and FL had legal reps there so they can get their case together.
The bloke talking (sorry can't recall who he was) said in his opinion the rule was morally wrong and the others, presenter etc, were all in agreement.
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as someone arguing over a move by HMRC to disallow tax relief on pension contributions following the sale of my business of over 30 years i am increasingly pissed off as I see examples of the large companies getting away with the amounts involved.
Talk about one rule for the big boys...in 2007 we paid more tax than Man utd....and we were only a small village chemists.
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I also think the HMRC are looking at the treatment of image rights as offshore earnings as they argue this is tax avoidance.
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I also think the HMRC are looking at the treatment of image rights as offshore earnings as they argue this is tax avoidance.
Looking at?
I'm pretty sure they've already brought a case against Rangers for it.
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Not as big as Portsmouth but still, former league side Nelson have ceased to be (http://www.nelsonfc.co.uk/news/tmnw/end_of_the_road_for_the_admirals_537694/index.shtml).
:(
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Bromsgrove Rovers gone, refused permission to play in the Southern League because the ground is not up to standard, no money...RIP and all that.
http://www.bromsgroverovers.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4202 (http://www.bromsgroverovers.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4202)
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Heard that on Midlands Today. Are Sporting Bromsgrove going to be up and running this season?
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Heard that on Midlands Today. Are Sporting Bromsgrove going to be up and running this season?
Yes, Bromsgrove Sporting (just to give then their proper title!) are up and running in Midland Combination division 2, they will be playing in Studley until they can permission to play at The Victoria Ground, where they now hold the lease but obviously there is some legal stuff to be sorted.
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Another one on the brink:
Ilkeston Town (http://www.ilkestonadvertiser.co.uk/sport/BREAKING-NEWS-Ilkeston-Town-wound.6520037.jp)
Plus Atherstone Town have slashed their wage budget to zero! (http://www.nonleaguedaily.com/news/index.php?&newsmode=FULL&nid=69773)
And Mansfield are in bother again (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/mansfield_town/8984904.stm) and up for sale.
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And Mansfield are in bother again (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/mansfield_town/8984904.stm) and up for sale.
I know I shouldn't but YES! Get your cunting asses down to the very pits of hell of the non-league world.
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Not going to be buying the Mansfield home kit this year then, Bazz?
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And Mansfield are in bother again (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/mansfield_town/8984904.stm) and up for sale.
Ever considered a job in marketing Tube-dude?
I know I shouldn't but YES! Get your cunting asses down to the very pits of hell of the non-league world.
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Grrrr! Still keep making mistakes with the new improved quote button!
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Ever considered a job in marketing Tube-dude?
Isn't he Hit-it-with-a-hammer-until-it-works-or-breaks-dude now?
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Not going to be buying the Mansfield home kit this year then, Bazz?
Only so I can set it on fire, and then stand there refusing to piss on it.
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Not going to be buying the Mansfield home kit this year then, Bazz?
Only so I can set it on fire, and then stand there refusing to piss on it.
I must've missed references to this before. Why the loathing for Mansfield, VS?
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Not going to be buying the Mansfield home kit this year then, Bazz?
Only so I can set it on fire, and then stand there refusing to piss on it.
I must've missed references to this before. Why the loathing for Mansfield, VS?
He got raped by Bambi
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Not going to be buying the Mansfield home kit this year then, Bazz?
Only so I can set it on fire, and then stand there refusing to piss on it.
I must've missed references to this before. Why the loathing for Mansfield, VS?
I was going out with a stunning lass from just outside Mansfield (so far out of my league it was unreal). Anyway, she ditched me for a Mansfield player a couple of months later.
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Dundee seem to be in a spot of bother.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9034209.stm
Dundee director George Knight is adamant the club will still have a future if it goes into administration.
The First Division club must pay an Inland Revenue bill of £365,000, raising fears administrators may be appointed, as happened seven years ago.
Knight said: "I've been involved here since the dark days of 2003, and we've not come through what we've come through to see that undone."
The Dens Park directors say the club's future will be clearer within 48 hours.
They met at lunchtime on Monday and emerged to say that they are continuing to explore all avenues and are asking for patience from the fans.
Director Knight told BBC Scotland: "Discussions are ongoing. As soon as we are in a position to make a statement, we will do so."
Major investor Calum Melville recently tendered his resignation to the board as he tackles personal business problems.
That led to negotiations between the club and the director, resulting in Aberdeen-based Melville saying he would remain on the board if still wanted and that he would continue to back the club financially.
It is believed that the club are trying to raise the money to satisfy HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) and that a leading figure in the insolvency world is currently negotiating with them on the club's behalf.
But room for manoeuvre is limited. A senior Dens Park source told BBC Scotland on Sunday: "HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) are looking for the payment immediately.
"And they are being completely inflexible, with no room for negotiation at all."
Melville told the News of the World: "I feel we are being treated differently from other clubs and I would have thought HMRC has a duty to treat everyone in the same fashion.
"The words used were that they 'wanted to bring Dundee to account and bring the rest of Scottish football to heel'.
"Dundee FC are in a hole with HMRC. We've been running in arrears with them for 19 months and they are now demanding full payment for the outstanding amount, which is something around £250,000.
"We have offered £100,000, which has been rejected. I have also offered to pay the full amount in May next year and that has also been rejected.
"There is no question that the club is being used as an example and it has put us in a really difficult place.
"My feeling is that HMRC will write to us in the next week and tell us what their intentions are. There is a very distinct possibility of administration."
Meanwhile, Dundee's problems on the field of play deepened on Saturday with a 2-1 defeat away to Cowdenbeath.
Gordon Chisholm's side sit seventh in Division One, 10 points behind leaders Dunfermline Athletic.
Last summer they were the second biggest spending club in Scotland in terms of fees despite being in the second tier. They still didn't come up despite being top when they sacked Jocky Scott and employed Chisholm (Of whom I hold an irrational dislike).
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A brutal end: Dundee face staff cull and possible extinction after entering administration
By Robert Thomson
Last updated at 12:30 AM on 15th October 2010
The full scale of the savage cuts at Dundee will be revealed on Friday - with administrator Bryan Jackson set to warn that the club has just four weeks to avoid going into liquidation.
The crisis-hit Dens Park outfit formally entered administration on Thursday and there are real fears that this once-proud institution could follow the likes of Gretna, Airdrie and Clydebank in going out of business.
Jackson, a recovery specialist with Glasgow-based firm PKF, will assume control of Dundee this morning. He is expected to embark on a brutal cost-cutting drive that will see manager Gordon Chisholm, assistant Billy Dodds and up to a dozen players made redundant.
As the administrators moved in, chairman Bob Brannan announced his intention to stand down from the Dens Park board.
Brannan expressed his regret at the position he leaves the club in and revealed he will hand over his 54per cent shareholding to the administrator, with a view to raising funds for the club.
Brannan said: ‘I have stated many times in the past that it is my desire the club be owned by the fans. Consequently, the 54 per cent of shares currently controlled by me will be made available to the administrator so that he can utilise these for fundraising purposes.
‘I understand the frustrations of management, players, staff and creditors finding themselves in the current circumstances and for that I am desperately sorry.’
The First Division side encountered financial problems after growing wholly reliant on director Calum Melville, with their business model becoming totally unsustainable following his desire to resign from the board.
Dundee were recently hit with a £365,000 tax bill and have other debts of £1.6million, as well as running at a five-figure monthly loss.
The first task for Jackson, who previously guided Motherwell through administration, will be to trim the wage bill by around 70 per cent. That alone, however, is unlikely to be enough to save the club.
Melville has placed £200,000 into a bank account to help with running costs but, in order to get to the end of the season, Jackson will need to raise at least another £200,000.
Local businessmen have already pledged £75,000 towards the cause, but if no further investors can be found there is a possibility the club will be forced into liquidation.
Dundee failed to pay their players’ wages last month and, although they have since come forward with half the balance, they are understood to be in breach of contract. Should that be deemed to be the case, players may be able to walk away for free, with SPL sides St Johnstone and Hearts likely to be interested in Scotland Under-21 striker Leigh Griffiths.
PFA Scotland chief Fraser Wishart will also petition FIFA to ask permission for those players made redundant to join new clubs outwith the transfer window.
Chief executive Harry MacLean insisted the club would fulfil their fixture against Stirling on Saturday but he could not guarantee they would be able to avoid liquidation.
‘Any business that goes into administration, that can happen,’ he said. ‘My personal opinion is that won’t be allowed to happen. But the simple fact is unless we raise money and unless we raise it quickly, then we could face that prospect.’
Should Dundee be wound up, the First Division would carry on with nine teams and all points won against them ruled void. A vacancy would then open up at the end of the season for a new club to join the SFL.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1320662/Dundee-face-possible-extinction-entering-administration.html#ixzz12RQUigM7
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Doesn't look good for Dundee at all, is there a movement from the fans to form a new club if the worst happens?
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Nothing really at the moment that I've heard unfortunately.
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Not going to be buying the Mansfield home kit this year then, Bazz?
Only so I can set it on fire, and then stand there refusing to piss on it.
I must've missed references to this before. Why the loathing for Mansfield, VS?
I was going out with a stunning lass from just outside Mansfield (so far out of my league it was unreal). Anyway, she ditched me for a Mansfield player a couple of months later.
I have a similar one about Leeds, although the girl wasn't stunning and she didn't ditch me for a Leeds player. It's just that all she knew about football was based around going to see the Leeds title winners of 91-92 and seeing them all out around the city when she was a student there. I can't be sure but I think the bloke she's now engaged to is a Dirty Leeds fan, so the longer they stay below the top division the better imo.
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Chances are 50/50 according to the administrator.
It is actually pretty sad if you think they are in this situation due to being £2million in debt (Steve Sidwell or Habib Beye's weekly wage) and a tax bill of something like £400K. Compare that to the ludicrous debts at Man United or Liverpool or Man City's wage bill. They are not like Livingstone or Gretna in that they are one of the bigger names in Scottish football and should be an SPL side.
One of their players who have been made redundant has been through the same thing with Gretna and Livvy when things went bollock shaped there. You have to feel for him.
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Portsmouth set to be liquidated. On ssn now.
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That is terrible. Don't like the twat with the bell but wouldn't wish that on any club.
Except Small Heath, Leeds, Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool, Spurs, Rangers, Lazio.
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I'm not a great lover of Small Heath-on-Sea either, but wouldn't wish liquidation on them.
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From their os;
Sacha Gaydamak Puts Future Of Portsmouth In Jeopardy
Portsmouth Football Club is extremely disappointed to report that it has not yet managed to achieve the exit from Administration, despite the extensive efforts of the Football League, NewCo, the Administrators and their various legal advisors.
The process has been extremely complicated and there has been a team of people working night and day to get the deal done. The most difficult aspect has been trying to achieve agreement with Alexandre Gaydamak after the remaining parties have agreed the deal and executed the necessary documents, namely the new owners, the Administrators, the Football League and the creditors.
Unfortunately, despite the new owners fulfilling all the requirements of the Football League and the creditors, and agreeing and signing up to the required terms of the purchase of the club, at the 11th hour the goalposts have been moved by Mr Gaydamak and this has now made the deal impossible to complete.
Put simply, despite being offered full payment for the secured part of his debt in accordance with the financial plan approved by the Football League, this morning Mr Gaydamak has demanded a very significant upfront cash payment in order to allow the deal to proceed by releasing his security.
All this is in spite of his lawyers going to Paris this morning specifically for the purpose of witnessing his signature to the document agreed yesterday.
It is neither in the interests of the club nor its unsecured creditors for such a ransom payment to be made, particularly where the payment is being demanded by one of the authors of the club’s current circumstances.
In addition, and equally importantly, all of the business plans submitted and approved by the Football League would be fundamentally damaged by such a requirement placed on the club by Mr Gaydamak.
We will provide further information as soon as possible.
However, it appears likely that the club will now be closed down and liquidated by the Administrators as they are unable to support the continued trading of the club.
We would like to thank the Football League in particular for their support and assistance through this difficult process.
All other parties had managed to reach agreement.
This has now been undermined by the self-interested actions of one individual. Mr Gaydamak has provided confirmation several times that terms were agreed. However, he has continually changed his position in an attempt to exploit the goodwill of the other parties to the transaction.
By now doing this he has shown complete disregard for the supporters, the club and the City of Portsmouth.
His earlier comments when the club went into Administration about doing everything possible to save the club’s future do not appear to reflect his current actions.
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Portsmouth set to be liquidated. On ssn now.
Portsmouth set to be liquidated. On ssn now.
Couldn't happen to a nicer club
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I blame appy arry, I don't know why I do, but i'd love it if it was revealed that he showed complete disregard for pompeys finances during his time there.
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Jim White is close to an orgasm on sky, the stupid f*ckin white haired media whore b*stard b*llocking imbecile.
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So on the same day that a player signs a contract to earn a reported £200k-plus per week, a famous old football club goes out of business...
The modern game stinks doesnt it!
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Jim White is close to an orgasm on sky, the stupid f*ckin white haired media whore b*stard b*llocking imbecile.
Oh God, I was going to switch it on until I read that. (Thanks BTW). What time does he finish his shift? Any sign of Millie Clode?
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I blame appy arry, I don't know why I do, but i'd love it if it was revealed that he showed complete disregard for pompeys finances during his time there.
In fairness managers aren't accountants. The reaction of 99.9999% of managers to the question "do you want shitloads of money to spend?" would be "yes please".
I would imagine those with access to the club's accounts might have a better idea how to run a club. Apparently not in this case.
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Can't Fred Dinage whip up a consortium? Like Nick Owen did with Luton?
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Can't Fred Dinage whip up a consortium?
How?
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Portsmouth set to be liquidated. On ssn now.
Got to say looking at the story, this is shocking. I've got no great love for the club, but they don't deserve this.
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Can't Fred Dinage whip up a consortium?
No, you're thinking of Frank Bough.
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Can't Fred Dinage whip up a consortium?
How?
*clappy emoticon*
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I blame appy arry, I don't know why I do, but i'd love it if it was revealed that he showed complete disregard for pompeys finances during his time there.
In fairness managers aren't accountants. The reaction of 99.9999% of managers to the question "do you want shitloads of money to spend?" would be "yes please".
I would imagine those with access to the club's accounts might have a better idea how to run a club. Apparently not in this case.
I know, but I can dream can't I. :)
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The F.A should bail Pompey out. They allowed a shyster like Gaydamac control over the club, what is it going to take for those idiots to sort out ownership of clubs and the debt that they take on.
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The F.A should bail Pompey out. They allowed a shyster like Gaydamac control over the club, what is it going to take for those idiots to sort out ownership of clubs and the debt that they take on.
And this is the FA's problem how?
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The F.A should bail Pompey out. They allowed a shyster like Gaydamac control over the club, what is it going to take for those idiots to sort out ownership of clubs and the debt that they take on.
And this is the FA's problem how?
Because apparently people cant take responsibility for their own actions any more...
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I hate this thread.
With so much money flying around the PL, it's a disgrace the money hasn't filtered through.
The only positive is more folk supporting their local non-league teams (when the Villa are not an option).
I don't hate modern day football but I hate what the PL and the idiots at the FA have done to English football.