Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Legion on October 21, 2012, 06:17:31 PM
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Club statement (http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~2955370,00.html)
It has come to Aston Villa's attention that today's Mail on Sunday (21.10.2012) contains an article suggesting that certain Aston Villa players were involved in a protest against Kick It Out at our match against Fulham on Saturday, October 20, 2012.
The article states that there was "controversy at Craven Cottage" resulting from certain Aston Villa players removing their Kick It Out t-shirts "early" and throwing their Kick It Out t-shirts to the ground "in disgust".
This story, as it relates to Aston Villa and our players, is inaccurate, misleading and distorted.
All Aston Villa players took to the pitch for the pre-game warm-up on Saturday wearing Kick It Out t-shirts.
As is usual practice the players were split into two groups during that warm-up to play possession football; in order to be distinguishable one group removed their Kick It Out t-shirts.
The players who removed their t-shirts for this reason were Brett Holman, Joe Bennett, Fabian Delph, Darren Bent and Nathan Baker. This was not a protest. There was no controversy.
No player threw their shirt to the ground "in disgust".
Aston Villa are particularly disappointed with this irresponsible journalism, given that the journalist in question had the full facts of the matter at his disposal before this article went to press: he even asked a question regarding the issue at Saturday's post-match press conference.
His question and the manager's response are below:-
Mail on Sunday: Can you confirm they meant no disrespect to the Kick It Out campaign?
Paul Lambert: No, not at all. We play a possession thing and that will only have been what that was…..There was no disrespect to it whatsoever. We train and then five lads wear one shirt and five wear another…….They backed it, the football club backs it to the hilt.
Despite this, the Mail on Sunday proceeded to publish an article which is demonstrably untrue.
Aston Villa take their commitment to embracing diversity and promoting equality very seriously.
These efforts have been recognised by Kick It Out when Aston Villa became only the second club to achieve the highest level of the Kick It Out Equality Standard, an achievement which we are justly proud of.
The club have written to the Mail on Sunday today, requesting that the article be corrected and an apology published.
We have also suggested that the Mail on Sunday makes a donation to Kick It Out to help them continue with the excellent work they do.
Finally, we have suggested to the Mail on Sunday that they may wish to highlight - in next Sunday's edition - some of the positive events and activities that all Premier League clubs, including Aston Villa, are taking part in as part of Kick It Out's Weeks of Action (which take place between October 18 and 29, 2012).
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The journalist in question should also be asked to make a donation, before losing his job.
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We didn't get to the ground until 255pm so missed all that.
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The club have written to the Mail on Sunday today, requesting that the article be corrected and an apology published.
We have also suggested that the Mail on Sunday makes a donation to Kick It Out to help them continue with the excellent work they do.
Finally, we have suggested to the Mail on Sunday that they may wish to highlight - in next Sunday's edition - some of the positive events and activities that all Premier League clubs, including Aston Villa, are taking part in as part of Kick It Out's Weeks of Action (which take place between October 18 and 29, 2012).
I liked this bit
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They should also mention that it is only us and Arsenal that have reached the top level of the kick it out equality standard. Would be a bit strange for our club to be involved in this!
http://www.kickitout.org/422.php
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Somebody on Facebook has posted that she (and others presumably) kept calling the bar staff at Fulham 'Heskey'. Pathetic.
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Somebody on Facebook has posted that she (and others presumably) kept calling the bar staff at Fulham 'Heskey'. Pathetic.
I hope they didn't get served.
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Lazy journalism by some desperate fool trying to get noticed.
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Just fuck off the mail on Sunday.Lying Tory ******.
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Well, we seem to have somebody in the press office with a nice line in straighteners.
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They should also mention that it is only us and Arsenal that have reached the top level of the kick it out equality standard. Would be a bit strange for our club to be involved in this!
http://www.kickitout.org/422.php
We did.
"These efforts have been recognised by Kick It Out when Aston Villa became only the second club to achieve the highest level of the Kick It Out Equality Standard, an achievement which we are justly proud of."
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I'm starting to like our PR people, after the Sullivan and Green put downs, sticking one up the shit pipe of that disgusting rag the Mail on Sunday. Keep it up....
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I don't buy that paper but would suggest a campaign to boycott it.
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Is the original article making these claims online?
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Is the original article making these claims online?
If it ever was online its been taken down.
The Mails match reporter at the game was somebody called Mark Ryan. Hopefully he is sacked but I doubt it. Unless he offers the club a full personal apology he should be banned from Villa Park and also refused any interviews by any club personnel elsewhere.
Can't find much info on the objectionable shitbag I'm afraid.
http://authors.simonandschuster.co.uk/Mark-Ryan/404889815
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Was the journalist Moxley? He works as a Mail stringer I believe. I was in the same class at school with his father, a right little knuckledragger.
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Mark Ryan.
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All this racism stuff is going all a bit mad, Rio and Anton refuse to wear the top, Rio can fuck off he called Cole a chock ice, It's now on SSN they are investigating alleged racism at the Sunderland v Newcastle game? Have we all of a sudden gone racist??
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Sounds like a made up name to me. Isn't it an anagram of My Arse?
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http://creativecontentdigital.com/authors.shtml#LowdownWorldCup
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TqAnW1rkvFE/S6wAbXEuvNI/AAAAAAAAAP4/5Yc2Ec4ZpV4/s1600/Mark+Ryan.jpg)
Mark Ryan has been a sports journalist for 25 years, and has written at some stage for just about every national newspaper in Britain. Also a prolific author, he recently finished writing a biography of England»s 2010 World Cup coach – "Fabio Capello, The Boss" (published by JR Books)
He regularly reports on the London based football matches for the Mail on Sunday newspaper.
Ryan’s work in football has taken him on assignments worldwide, and that extensive travel has helped him to develop a truly international perspective on the game he loves most.
Mark Ryan’s experience in radio reporting made him the ideal presenter for the audio edition of this history of the World Cup – from its chaotic beginnings to the global phenomenon it has become today.
Now 48, Ryan lives in Berkshire, England, with his wife Victoria and son Luca.
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All this racism stuff is going all a bit mad, Rio and Anton refuse to wear the top, Rio can fuck off he called Cole a chock ice, It's now on SSN they are investigating alleged racism at the Sunderland v Newcastle game? Have we all of a sudden gone racist??
SSN have gone off at the deep end. Anton Ferdinand refuses to wear a sodding t-shirt, *one* allegation of racial abuse at Sunderland. Somebody in the crowd has shouted a remark. Allegedly.
Slow news day, load of old bollocks.
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Neil Moxley's a nice bloke Brian. He's a nose but is usually very fair with the Villa and probably values his relationship with the club too much to write such bollocks.
Him and Stuart James from the Guardian were also just about the only two journalists who could be bothered to find out and report why we really didn't like TSM.
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This is a typical Leveson issue, there will now, no doubt, be thousands of people thinking our club is full of racists.
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They should also mention that it is only us and Arsenal that have reached the top level of the kick it out equality standard. Would be a bit strange for our club to be involved in this!
http://www.kickitout.org/422.php
We did.
"These efforts have been recognised by Kick It Out when Aston Villa became only the second club to achieve the highest level of the Kick It Out Equality Standard, an achievement which we are justly proud of."
I meant the mail should point this out in any apology they might print.
25,000 at the game yesterday and only one person noticed us throw the shirts on the floor.
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Look out next week for two paragraphs in tiny print buried on an inside page, with the heading 'Aston Villa' and the top line 'in an article published on Sunday, 21st October....'
In short, a 'correction' designed to deter anyone from reading it.
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What is Ferdinands problem with the t-shirt?
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He reckons the FA has been lenient on Terry and the 'Kick it Out' campaign is just an empty gesture.
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What is Ferdinands problem with the t-shirt?
Apparently he decided to protest against racism by not participating in the anti racism campaign.
He bizzare logic is that not enough has been done (true) so he should opt out of Kick it Out. What is bizzare is Kick it Out has no powers beyond awareness. So he is picking on the wrong group.
What he should have done if he had the balls is to do an interview criticising the FA, he would have got the press and been able to make his points.
Passively aggressively not wearing a TShirt makes him look pretty silly on the matter imho.
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Fancy being called racists by The Mail.
It's like walking down the street and somebody shouting 'Oi Percy you fucking nonce'! You turn round and it's Jimmy fucking Savile.
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Fancy being called racists by The Mail.
It's like walking down the street and somebody shouting 'Oi Percy you fucking nonce'! You turn round and it's Jimmy fucking Savile.
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sky are making the most of this to deflect attention away from The Sun and Leveson etc.
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It seems to me that the Kick it Out campaign has been making progress amongst fans. Hopefully in changing attitudes but certainly in making those who hold such odious views think twice before voicing them amongst other fans.
But it also seems to have had virtually no effect amongst those that play the game.
Seems like our overpaid footballers cossetted away from the real world have a bit of catching up to do with those of us who watch them.
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It seems to me that the Kick it Out campaign has been making progress amongst fans. Hopefully in changing attitudes but certainly in making those who hold such odious views think twice before voicing them amongst other fans.
But it also seems to have had virtually no effect amongst those that play the game.
One theory I've heard today is that the Ferdinand/Terry thing has exposed the cliqueyness of Premiership football, rather than an undercurrent of racism.
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What is Ferdinands problem with the t-shirt?
Apparently he decided to protest against racism by not participating in the anti racism campaign.
He bizzare logic is that not enough has been done (true) so he should opt out of Kick it Out. What is bizzare is Kick it Out has no powers beyond awareness. So he is picking on the wrong group.
What he should have done if he had the balls is to do an interview criticising the FA, he would have got the press and been able to make his points.
Passively aggressively not wearing a TShirt makes him look pretty silly on the matter imho.
Couldn't agree more. I really can't see the reasoning behind criticising Kick it Out, for as you rightly point that they have no powers. The FA dealt with the Terry matter awfully and are now hiding behind Kick it Out and letting them take the brunt of the criticism. Also, the FA don't seem to have put anything in place to deal with an incident like this should it happen again.
ps. I really don't think it is wise to have live interview with some footballers when it comes to sensitive issues like this. I was listening to Radio 5 last night and Jason Brown (Aberdeen keeper) was tying himself in knots talking about the issue.
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Ferguson was fuming about it, one paper said it'll be the end of him at old Trafford
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It's a worry that there are actually people in this country who buy and read the Mail.
Some of them possibly even fall for the tripe they're reading.
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Ferguson was fuming about it, one paper said it'll be the end of him at old Trafford
Ferdinand is on thin ice. Ferguson has got rid of better players for less.
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Ferguson was fuming about it, one paper said it'll be the end of him at old Trafford
Ferguson was around in the 70s and 80s and saw how badly black players were treated back then. He will hopefully point out to Ferdinand that it is in no small part due to the worthy efforts of the Kick it Out campaign that things have improved as much as they have. Ferdinand's action was downright disrespectful to all those who have worked so hard for that campaign over the years.
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Was at Elland Rd when they threw bananas onto the pitch at Bruno. People barely batted an eyelid back then. Absolutely disgusting.
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#I wouldn't wipe my fucking arse with the Daily Heil or the Heil (light) on Sunday. I'd rather the shit stick to my bottom as I'd still be much cleaner. And the same goes for the ****** at Murdoch's empire who advocated the tapping of the Murdered Girl's Phone and Dead Soldier's phones.
Scum. Sub human Scum - all of them!
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Was at Elland Rd when they threw bananas onto the pitch at Bruno. People barely batted an eyelid back then. Absolutely disgusting.
Our fans did that at The Hawthorns for at least two seasons on the trot. The green grocers along the Soho Rd must have done a roaring trade.
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Can we email this journalist to note our displeasure?
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There was an article in yesterday's Independent that mentioned Savo Milosevic apologising on behalf of the Serbian FA.
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If the Ferdinands - and others - feel that Kick It Out is a worthless idea then there is nothing to stop them putting time and money into starting an initiative of their own. It's not like they work 24/7 or are a little short of cash come the end of the month.
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Ferguson was fuming about it, one paper said it'll be the end of him at old Trafford
Ferdinand is on thin ice. Ferguson has got rid of better players for less.
Ferdinand is a big headed twat who was a decent defender 5 years ago.This all goes back to the Chelsea racist getting the England captaincy.It just so happened that the Chelsea racist was being that to his brother.Rio is nothing more than a bandwagon jumper.
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Fancy being called racists by The Mail.
It's like walking down the street and somebody shouting 'Oi Percy you fucking nonce'! You turn round and it's Jimmy fucking Savile.
Brilliant Percy. The biggest laugh I've had this weekend.
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I do like how we handle things like this.
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Ferguson was fuming about it, one paper said it'll be the end of him at old Trafford
Ferdinand is on thin ice. Ferguson has got rid of better players for less.
The fact that he's well past his sell-by date means his times up more than anything. i can see the point of certain players regarding not wanting to support kick It Out, by Rio Ferdinand's decision is based on the Terry incident and as such is a selfish dig at the FA for the punitive punishment Terry received. Thus it is ill conceived and conceited. That in essence is what I believe has riled Ferguson.
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It's dragged his club into a damaging public row which was none of their concern. I would be furious.
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I think Man U as an institution are too big to have the club dragged into the row - by which I mean the name Manchester United. Ferguson will not appreciate though a personal viewpoint, or stance, which is seen as being taken selfishly and could cast the club in a bad light. So, yes, you're right.
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It's dragged his club into a damaging public row which was none of their concern. I would be furious.
It's also overshadowed the story that the entire Swansea team did'nt wear their t.shirts.
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I think Man U as an institution are too big to have the club dragged into the row - by which I mean the name Manchester United. Ferguson will not appreciate though a personal viewpoint, or stance, which is seen as being taken selfishly and could cast the club in a bad light. So, yes, you're right.
I agree Peter. I also agree that whatever Ferdinand's intentions, he's picked the wrong target to have a go at.
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It's dragged his club into a damaging public row which was none of their concern. I would be furious.
It's also overshadowed the story that the entire Swansea team did'nt wear their t.shirts.
Well they're just Welsh fannies.
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The Mail printing unsubstantiated nonsense, what a surprise. Good response from the club.
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Says all you need to know about Chelsea. If I called someone in a rival organisation a f@@@ing black c@@@ my employer would not be retaining me in a visible leadership role. Or more likely not be retaining me at all.
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Oh and what's more, if that was a villa player I would be furious if he ever played for my club again, let alone kept the armband. Haven't heard any Chelsea supporters on the subject.
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It's dragged his club into a damaging public row which was none of their concern. I would be furious.
I'm not quite sure how it is none of their concern, especially as their players have recent direct experience of racism. I don't know if Ferdinand did it in protest at the Kick It Out group or used it as a way of highlighting supposed inaction or weakness by the FA on the issue. If it's the former, then it might be misguided, but if it's the latter, I think he is well be within his rights to do it, particularly if he feels that strongly about the issue. If it starts a meaningful debate then I would consider that a success.
Also, calling him selfish or conceited for doing what he did because of his personal experiences would appear to be rather stupid, in my opinion.
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Oh and what's more, if that was a villa player I would be furious if he ever played for my club again, let alone kept the armband. Haven't heard any Chelsea supporters on the subject.
I know one (very reasonable) Chelsea fan who absolutely despises Terry. Sadly, he's very much in the minority in any that I've encountered.
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Ferguson was fuming about it, one paper said it'll be the end of him at old Trafford
Ferdinand is on thin ice. Ferguson has got rid of better players for less.
The fact that he's well past his sell-by date means his times up more than anything. i can see the point of certain players regarding not wanting to support kick It Out, by Rio Ferdinand's decision is based on the Terry incident and as such is a selfish dig at the FA for the punitive punishment Terry received. Thus it is ill conceived and conceited. That in essence is what I believe has riled Ferguson.
What really riled Ferguson was the fact that at his press conference on Friday he publicly criticised Jason Roberts for his intention to not wear the t-shirt. Ferguson effectively said Roberts was misguided and that his players would all wear the shirt. Ferdinand's decision not to wear it would be seen as a personal affront by Ferguson, and as he said on MOTD - 'he'll be dealt with, you can be sure of that'. Hair dryer at gas mark 11 methinks.
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It's dragged his club into a damaging public row which was none of their concern. I would be furious.
It's also overshadowed the story that the entire Swansea team did'nt wear their t.shirts.
Well they're just Welsh fannies.
That's very welshist you know.
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I just don't understand why the players are having a go at Kick It Out. As someone has already said they don't have any official links to the FA and are basically an educational charity.
I heard one of their representatives on 5Live this morning say that they get by on £300,000 a year. I don't know where their funding comes from but most of those who refused to wear the t-shirt earn far more than that in a month, maybe they should put their money where their mouths are and donate a weeks wages to the campaign to help Kick It Out.
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I just don't understand why the players are having a go at Kick It Out. As someone has already said they don't have any official links to the FA and are basically an educational charity.
I heard one of their representatives on 5Live this morning say that they get by on £300,000 a year. I don't know where their funding comes from but most of those who refused to wear the t-shirt earn far more than that in a month, maybe they should put their money where their mouths are and donate a weeks wages to the campaign to help Kick It Out.
As I said, it might not be meant as a direct go at them, more at football's inaction in general. If that's the case, then I think it's a perfectly reasonable way of highlighting perceived problems with the movement.
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I heard some whispers over the weekend that some of the players involved in this boycott are rumoured to be considering resigning from the PFA and setting up their own union - which, reading between the lines, I imagine would be a black players' union.
Quite how they think forming a separatist group helps with integration and equality I don't know.
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I heard some whispers over the weekend that some of the players involved in this boycott are rumoured to be considering resigning from the PFA and setting up their own union - which, reading between the lines, I imagine would be a black players' union.
Quite how they think forming a separatist group helps with integration and equality I don't know.
That will not help things,just make it worse.Just look at the police.
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If players just put on the T shirt just because they are told to then it undermines the credibility of the campaign, in my opinion. If he, and others, have concerns with the organisation then they are perfectly within their rights to draw attention to it in this way.
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Fancy being called racists by The Mail.
It's like walking down the street and somebody shouting 'Oi Percy you fucking nonce'! You turn round and it's Jimmy fucking Savile.
I doubt that Gary Dobson and David Norris would agree with you.
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I just don't understand why the players are having a go at Kick It Out. As someone has already said they don't have any official links to the FA and are basically an educational charity.
I heard one of their representatives on 5Live this morning say that they get by on £300,000 a year. I don't know where their funding comes from but most of those who refused to wear the t-shirt earn far more than that in a month, maybe they should put their money where their mouths are and donate a weeks wages to the campaign to help Kick It Out.
As I said, it might not be meant as a direct go at them, more at football's inaction in general. If that's the case, then I think it's a perfectly reasonable way of highlighting perceived problems with the movement.
Those who have been quick to criticise Kick it Out haven't been forthcoming with ideas about how to tackle the issue have they? T
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Those who have been quick to criticise Kick it Out haven't been forthcoming with ideas about how to tackle the issue have they? T
Again, is it specifically Kick It Out or football in general? And what's the alternative? Say nothing? Comply? Don't rock the boat for fear of upsetting the manager? I just find it very peculiar that people are getting criticised for taking a stand on a subject they feel very strongly about, and that has clearly not gone away.
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What i dont get otrher than a piece of trash like Terry and a foreign moron like Suarez, both very isolated cases, do we really have a problem in the UK? I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Surely its the colour of the shirt that is more important than the colour of the players skin
I think this country ought to be proud that it has risen from the dark days when the likes of Batson, Cunningham and Regis could open a market stall with all the fruit and vegtables thrown at them compared to now. Lets face it both the Ferdinands, especially the aggreived one Anton has made a very good living out of having only average talent - being black has hardly held him back has it
Yes the FA was pathetic in the Terry case because if Barton got 12 games for booting someone up the arse then Terry should have got a season long ban - at least.
As for the actual "Kick it out " campaign - you would have thought the players in question would have gave it their full support at this monent rather than rebuff it. Maybe a donation from their huge salaries would have helped the cause - or maybe they dont feel that way about it
Oh and as for ferguson - the hypercritical cnut - "A union is stronger when they stand together" what like your one man strike against the BBC
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What about the racist abuse the Oldham player suffered at Liverpool last season? Demba Ba on sunday as well apparently? The ballboy who appeared to be abused a couple of weeks ago? The two you mentioned are not isolated cases (as much as some of those who, justifiably, had a go at Serbia would like to think otherwise). That's just in football alone, not the wider community, where groups such as the EDL, while certainly a minority, are big enough to be considered a worry.
And using the "being black hasn't hampered them making a good living from football" argument as evidence of there being no problem of racism is to simplify things to such a stupid extent that it's barely worth acknowledging.
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Mail on Sunday - a bit-part journalist who, in his mind, should be covering Spurs-Chelsea rather being at The Cottage. His response? To jump on the Refusal-to-Wear-the-Shirt bandwagon in the hope of raising the profile of his match report. Good statement - yet again - by the Villa.
Rio Ferdinand - just shown - yet again - that he's not the brighest spark, which doesn't do the credibility of his stance on any given issue any favours. Fergie has every right to be absolutely livid on this - and will help accelerate Ferdinand's exit. He'll be back at West Ham next season.
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Rio Ferdinand - just shown - yet again - that he's not the brighest spark, which doesn't do the credibility of his stance on any given issue any favours. Fergie has every right to be absolutely livid on this - and will help accelerate Ferdinand's exit. He'll be back at West Ham next season.
Ok, explain it to me. How on earth is a man who boxed himself into a corner by saying that all his players would support a cause (when it was apparent that at least one does not believe enough is being done on racism) is justifiably angry about a player standing up for what he believes in? He did not need to make such a definitive statement in his press conference, so he only has himself to blame.
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What i dont get otrher than a piece of trash like Terry and a foreign moron like Suarez,
If Suarez is a 'foreign' moron should Terry not be an 'English' moron?
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What i dont get otrher than a piece of trash like Terry and a foreign moron like Suarez,
If Suarez is a 'foreign' moron should Terry not be an 'English' moron?
Hookey isn't saying he's a moron because he's foreign. But seeing as Suarez based his defence on the fact as a foreigner, his words don't have the same meaning in his own country, I think it's fair comment.
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I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Plenty of foreign managers as well. But no black ones.
Something strange there
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I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Plenty of foreign managers as well. But no black ones.
Something strange there
There's Chris Powell.
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I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Plenty of foreign managers as well. But no black ones.
Something strange there
There's Chris Powell.
Hughton?
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I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Plenty of foreign managers as well. But no black ones.
Something strange there
How many black players take their coaching badges? I've no idea by the way, just asking.
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I know there's Powell and Hughton and there have been a few others in the past but the number of black managers compared to black players would suggest that someobdy is choosing not to employ black people as managers?
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How many black players take their coaching badges? I've no idea by the way, just asking.
Nor me
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Ince, Anderson, the bloke at Wolves ?
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Ince, Anderson, the bloke at Wolves ?
You mean Terry Connor. I don't think he'll get another manager's job again judging by his last effort.
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Ince, Anderson, the bloke at Wolves ?
You mean Terry Connor. I don't think he'll get another manager's job again judging by his last effort.
Not disagreeing that he was poor, but plenty of other equally poor managers get re-employed.
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I know there's Powell and Hughton and there have been a few others in the past but the number of black managers compared to black players would suggest that someobdy is choosing not to employ black people as managers?
There could be other reasons. A lot of managers either seem to be getting on a bit, eg Ferguson and Wenger, or foreign. On the age thing, the first wave of black players like Luther Blissett and Viv Anderson are still in their 50s, so there aren't going to be any black managers from the Ferguson/Houllier age range for example. There's a good chance that that argument is a load of rubbish, mind.
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Ince, Anderson, the bloke at Wolves ?
You mean Terry Connor. I don't think he'll get another manager's job again judging by his last effort.
yeah thats him and your probably right.
Hope Powell ?
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But how many premier league managers are white and under 50?
Hughes
Moyes
Lambert
Atkins
Di Matteo
Clarke
Villa Boas
Laudrup
etc
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But how many premier league managers are white and under 50?
Hughes
Moyes
Lambert
Atkins
Di Matteo
Clarke
Villa Boas
Laudrup
etc
How many of those are English?
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What i dont get otrher than a piece of trash like Terry and a foreign moron like Suarez,
If Suarez is a 'foreign' moron should Terry not be an 'English' moron?
Hookey isn't saying he's a moron because he's foreign. But seeing as Suarez based his defence on the fact as a foreigner, his words don't have the same meaning in his own country, I think it's fair comment.
Thanks for the support- Suarez's defence was that it was lost in translation and that it was not frowned upon in his country - he is amoron for not knowing it is not acceptable in this country
Terry - knew exactly what he said / did was wrong
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How many of those are English?
That's true
So if English managers don't get much of a sniff of the top jobs, black English managers get an even rougher deal?
What do you reckon? at least 25% of players are black? only 3 black managers in the football league.
I don't know what the reason is for such a small number but the only conclusion I can reach is that it's because they're black
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Have we ever thought that there are not a load of ex black players chomping on the bit to be managers
Lets face it , if its not stress related health problems then its almost guaranteed that they will get dogs abuse at some point. Considering the Likes of Anderson, Ince, John Barnes, Gullit were all great players yet piss poor managers
Is that not the same for the white players over time - being a great player does not guarantee being a decent coach
Maybe the modern ex players have earned so much money they just dont fancy it
I really cannot believe that any chairman would give a toss about the guys skin colour if they were good enough to be employed as a manager
If you look around the world there are not even black coaches at most of the African teams - dont really know why?
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How many of those are English?
That's true
So if English managers don't get much of a sniff of the top jobs, black English managers get an even rougher deal?
What do you reckon? at least 25% of players are black? only 3 black managers in the football league.
I don't know what the reason is for such a small number but the only conclusion I can reach is that it's because they're black
I'm sure somebody out there must have done some reserach. But as I said before, how many go on to do their coaching badges? How many actually WANT to be managers? I always thought that somebody like Dion Dublin would be a good manager, but he seems happier with media work. Going back to the age thing, if the average age of managers is (totally guessing) 48, what was the percentage of black players when those managers were playing? There could be a time lag effect going on. Or football chairmen could all be like Ron Noades, who are comfortable employing black players, but not black managers. It's interesting though.
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Isn't football is one of the most open "industries" to talent. It doesn't matter what colour, race, religion or if you've spent time inside or are a horrible character. If you are good enough you'll get into a team somewhere, morals or outdated views of the world get thrown out of the window.
If you look at the make up of players at the top of the game, then look at their colour, religion, nationality I doubt you'd find another industry in the country with such a wide mix. Speaking from experience look at the mix compared to say journalism or advertising?
I sometimes wonder why football is singled out so much as having "problems" when there are so many other industries that are so much more closed. Yes there are idiots, such as Terry, that should have the book thrown at them, but the fact that supporters are giving them grief about being a racist is in itself a massive shift from the 1970s/80s.
I caveat all this with saying it's easy to say this from the standpoint of someone who has fortunately never experience this type of prejudice.
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Probably one of the best points I've seen made for a while, London Villan.
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It is a fair point to an extent, but surely there's more levels to racism than just whether someone's given an opportunity or not based on the colour of their skin? And as has been pointed out, playing staff in football may well have a wide range of creeds and races, but management certainly doesn't.
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I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Plenty of foreign managers as well. But no black ones.
Something strange there
How many black players take their coaching badges? I've no idea by the way, just asking.
people talk about the absence of black coaches and managers, but the most prominent black british players of the premier league era - ian wright, dion dublin, stan collymore, les ferdinand etc have all opted to go into the media instead.
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I think football is the ultimate meritocracy.Regardless of skin/colour/age if you are deemed good enough then you will get the job.Like a lot of things in football there is a "fad", because Mourinho and Wenger were so successful, the appointment of foreign coaches is popular, similarly Fergies achievements have meant a plethora of Scottish managers.As soon as a black manager has success, then i'm sure there will be many more to follow.I'm not sure why it is such a big issue, as i;m sure its not racially motivated.
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I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Plenty of foreign managers as well. But no black ones.
Something strange there
How many black players take their coaching badges? I've no idea by the way, just asking.
people talk about the absence of black coaches and managers, but the most prominent black british players of the premier league era - ian wright, dion dublin, stan collymore, les ferdinand etc have all opted to go into the media instead.
Agreed, that's the point I was making before. It is interesting though, as black players are statisically massively over-represented in professional football, whereas black managers more accurately represent the demographics of the UK. Players of Indian/Pakistani origin on the other hand are under-represented.
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I mean every single team has today a healthy mix of black / white / foreign players whom all seem to get on.
Plenty of foreign managers as well. But no black ones.
Something strange there
How many black players take their coaching badges? I've no idea by the way, just asking.
people talk about the absence of black coaches and managers, but the most prominent black british players of the premier league era - ian wright, dion dublin, stan collymore, les ferdinand etc have all opted to go into the media instead.
Agreed, that's the point I was making before. It is interesting though, as black players are statisically massively over-represented in professional football, whereas black managers more accurately represent the demographics of the UK. Players of Indian/Pakistani origin on the other hand are under-represented.
Although in non-league football that seems to be changing. There are less black players than there used to be, but more Asians.
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Although in non-league football that seems to be changing. There are less black players than there used to be, but more Asians.
Football is new to the Asian culture. My father's generation had absolutely no interest in it and mainly associated it with insults and random abuse. My generation showed a bit more liking for it but I would say only about 10% got smitten. The next generation now in their 20's and 30's are much more into it. They play and support ....well support Manu. Their children now mainly under 10 are into football as passionately as any kid of that age from any ethnic group. This generation will represent as players at equal level providing they are good enough.
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Bring it on brother.
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To my mind, when black managers have had an opportunity, they haven't exactly done great. Paul Ince was given a chance at Blackburn as was John Barnes at Celtic. Neither made the most of it.
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Somehow the problem of racism has become a football problem only,
The antics of people like Drug cheat Rio Ferdinand has nothing to do with race but more about thier egos.
So Rio wants to create a Black Players group, now that will really help with stamping out racism.
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To my mind, when black managers have had an opportunity, they haven't exactly done great. Paul Ince was given a chance at Blackburn as was John Barnes at Celtic. Neither made the most of it.
But that was'nt because they were black, it's because they were poor managers.
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Ferdinand wants to institutionalise racism by setting up this group. It will be a shame if he succeeds. In my mind all these "Black this" "Asian that" bodies are an anathema and divide rather than unite.
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How many of those are English?
That's true
So if English managers don't get much of a sniff of the top jobs, black English managers get an even rougher deal?
What do you reckon? at least 25% of players are black? only 3 black managers in the football league.
I don't know what the reason is for such a small number but the only conclusion I can reach is that it's because they're black
I'm sure somebody out there must have done some reserach. But as I said before, how many go on to do their coaching badges? How many actually WANT to be managers? I always thought that somebody like Dion Dublin would be a good manager, but he seems happier with media work. Going back to the age thing, if the average age of managers is (totally guessing) 48, what was the percentage of black players when those managers were playing? There could be a time lag effect going on. Or football chairmen could all be like Ron Noades, who are comfortable employing black players, but not black managers. It's interesting though.
It isn't just British football where this happens. It has always been the case in the US with basketball and American football, though recent changes have been made.
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Don't they have a "Rooney" rule in the us?
not that Rooney
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Don't they have a "Rooney" rule in the us?
not that Rooney
That was one of the recent changes I was referring to Chico, though I'm not sure about the ins and outs of that particular ruling.
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Surely by creating a seperatist group for a particular race / colour / religion defeats the whole point of equality and wanting to be treated as equal?
There will always be isolated cases of fuckwits who use racial language etc and they should be judged by the laws of the land or the organisation they operate in. This is the failure with Terry / Suarez by our FA and the failure of FIFA globally
Now if the likes of Ferdinand and Roberts cannot see the huge steps we have taken over recent years as being progress theni seriously wonder if it is more about self promoting rather than the cause.
If they have an issue with the Terry thing then come out and say it directly - dont condemn the whole "Kick it out" campaigners who have worked wonders with very little financial support from above
You cannot enforce acceptance and tolerance with a stick - it has to be through education and unity - not foreced by seperation.
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A better form of judgment would be to compare how many applications from black people are successful compared to other ethnic groups. Even if this %age is significantly lower than for white applicants, this doesn't necessarily mean there is discrimination. For example, and this is a massive over generalisation (and there are obviously plenty of exemptions to the rule) but maybe black men have the assets to make excellent players but not so good managers. Like tall people are more suited to basketball than short people, shire horses and shetland ponies are more suited to different tasks, women and men are more suited to different tasks/jobs/roles etc etc etc. I didn't see many black swimmers in the pool at the Olympics, is this because of discrimination/ inequality or are they just not that good/don't enjoy swimming as much. I didn't see many people complain that swimming is racist. In fact there are plenty of sports/jobs etc where you see a higher %age of one ethnic group, mostly either because they excel at it or enjoy it more than other groups and not because of discrimination. This positive discrimination is no better than "normal"? discrimination in my book.
Just as an aside I find it interesting that people like Ferdinand, who presumably have one black parent and one white, get labelled/call themselves black, when they are just as white as they are black. People are all sorts of shades, but either get labelled black or white, a bit like the North/South divide debate which overlooks the Midlands/East Anglia/West Country/Wales etc which are neither North or South.
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Surely by creating a seperatist group for a particular race / colour / religion defeats the whole point of equality and wanting to be treated as equal?
There will always be isolated cases of fuckwits who use racial language etc and they should be judged by the laws of the land or the organisation they operate in. This is the failure with Terry / Suarez by our FA and the failure of FIFA globally
Now if the likes of Ferdinand and Roberts cannot see the huge steps we have taken over recent years as being progress theni seriously wonder if it is more about self promoting rather than the cause.
If they have an issue with the Terry thing then come out and say it directly - dont condemn the whole "Kick it out" campaigners who have worked wonders with very little financial support from above
You cannot enforce acceptance and tolerance with a stick - it has to be through education and unity - not foreced by seperation.
Couldn't agree more Hookey. It is not like we are talking about apartheid era South Africa here and thankfully most of the recent incidents in football have involved a single player / fan rather than large groups. The fact that it has been individuals as opposed to large groups should make it easier to deal with, but what I don't understand is why the FA still haven't acted in establishing some kind of set rule for such incidents. If one was to happen this weekend, there would be just as much confusion and delay in dealing with it as there has been before. There should be a set punishment for both players and fans, and incidents should be dealt with in the immediate aftermath of them happening. What the punishment should be for players (fans should get a banning order - simple) is another question though.
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How many of those are English?
That's true
So if English managers don't get much of a sniff of the top jobs, black English managers get an even rougher deal?
What do you reckon? at least 25% of players are black? only 3 black managers in the football league.
I don't know what the reason is for such a small number but the only conclusion I can reach is that it's because they're black
That's not much of a conclusion, do you mean they're black and therefore are less inclined to go for such jobs because they'd rather do something else, or they are not as naturally gifted for such a role or they are discriminated against by white senior figures who could offer them such a role?
So if 25% of the players are black then 25% of the crowd should be black? But it's not, are they being denied access to grounds, kicked out at the turnstiles, can they not afford it, do they not want to go? I doubt it's due to discrimination. Should we have 25% black tea ladies, kit men etc. or shall we just accept that we will have different %ages for each role for each ethnicity? If there is genuine cause to investigate then fair enough, but just based on numbers I think is a bit tenuous.
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So if 25% of the players are black then 25% of the crowd should be black?
Yep, that's exactly what I am trying to say...
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Some interesting info here: http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamBlack/Black.html
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It's an interesting debate and some good points well made which is often the case on this site. I was curious after reading this thread about the current ethnicity breakdown of our population in the UK. According to wikipedia the breakdown is 85% white british, 5% white 'other', 1.8% Indian, 1.6% Pakistani, 1.2% mixed race, 1% black caribbean, about 1% black african with the rest being made of smaller numbers (in comparison to the rest) of Bangladeshi, Chinese and 'other' Asian. Link here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Ethnicity
So, the number of black managers is in line with our population stats but not with the number of black players in the game currently. As others have said, the number of ex-players from ethnic minorities taking their badges in comparison to the number of white ex-players doing the same would be interesting to know and could get us closer to understanding what's going on.
Racism is such an emotive subject and I can understand why players like Ferdinand have reacted to the John Terry and Suarez cases, not to mention the abhorrent abuse Rose got in Serbia. The Kick It Out cause seems well meaning but it's clearly felt that it's a tick box exercise by the people in the game itself. That said, a separate union feels like the wrong thing to do to me.
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To my mind, when black managers have had an opportunity, they haven't exactly done great. Paul Ince was given a chance at Blackburn as was John Barnes at Celtic. Neither made the most of it.
But that was'nt because they were black, it's because they were poor managers.
Precisely. My point is that black managers do get the oppertunities.
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It would be interesting to know what jobs black managers had applied for, and who got the job if they didn't.
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Can we stop referring to people as "black managers". There is no such identity or job. No one is managing black!
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Can we stop referring to people as "black managers". There is no such identity or job. No one is managing black!
Er, what? What on earth should we call managers who are black then? "Managers who are black"?
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How on earth could you 'manage black' anyway?
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How on earth could you 'manage black' anyway?
By getting them to release Wonderful Life.
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Nice one.
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How on earth could you 'manage black' anyway?
By getting them to release Wonderful Life.
I've got that bloody song in my head now.
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My biggest concern is that the whole racism issue is being hijacked for personal purposes. There are black players and ex players seeking to raise their profiles as wannabe pundits and managers by sucking in the oxygen of publicity which it offers and equally self seeking white players and ex players who want to raise their standings as potential pundits and movers and shakers of the game by showing how PC they are.
The whole thing has become like the gay bishops deadlock in the Church of England namely a defining issue which should not be an issue at all. People must be respected whether they are football players or dinner ladies. Their colour, sex, age, religion, ethnicity or social status is of no relevance whatever.
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My biggest concern is that the whole racism issue is being hijacked for personal purposes. There are black players and ex players seeking to raise their profiles as wannabe pundits and managers by sucking in the oxygen of publicity which it offers and equally self seeking white players and ex players who want to raise their standings as potential pundits and movers and shakers of the game by showing how PC they are.
The whole thing has become like the gay bishops deadlock in the Church of England namely a defining issue which should not be an issue at all. People must be respected whether they are football players or dinner ladies. Their colour, sex, age, religion, ethnicity or social status is of no relevance whatever.
Absolute truth. Shame our world does not work like that. It would be a far better place if that was the case brian.
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Can we stop referring to people as "black managers". There is no such identity or job. No one is managing black!
Er, what? What on earth should we call managers who are black then? "Managers who are black"?
So what do you call mangers who are white?
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In all fairness Aftab, I think it's perfectly reasonable to describe managers as black or white during a discussion about race and possible inequalities between managers of various races. I can't say that I've noticed the term "black manager" being regularly used in any other circumstance.
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In all fairness Aftab, I think it's perfectly reasonable to describe managers as black or white during a discussion about race and possible inequalities between managers of various races. I can't say that I've noticed the term "black manager" being regularly used in any other circumstance.
Well indeed. Quite what point Aftab was trying to make, I really don't know.
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Apparently the Mail on Sunday have said this
The Mail on Sunday has issued the following apology to the Club: "Last week we said one Aston Villa player had thrown his Kick It Out shirt away in disgust and another had removed his early.
"The Mail on Sunday accepts that half the players were asked to remove shirts to split the squad during a pre-match warm-up.
"There was no protest and all the players fully support Kick It Out.
"We are happy to make that clear and apologise for any misunderstanding."
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The Daily Mail have issued an apology to Aston Villa Football Club and it reads as such:
The Mail on Sunday has issued the following apology to the Club: "Last week we said one Aston Villa player had thrown his Kick It Out shirt away in disgust and another had removed his early.
"The Mail on Sunday accepts that half the players were asked to remove shirts to split the squad during a pre-match warm-up.
"There was no protest and all the players fully support Kick It Out.
"We are happy to make that clear and apologise for any misunderstanding."
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So what do you call mangers who are white?
I've got a book that is possibly the most badly edited I've ever read in which the word 'manager' is forever bring spelled as 'manger'. Bet any money that a newspaper tomorrow makes the same mistake!
The book is by Dennis Munday and is about The Jam. Avoid, it's rubbish!
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Oh dear Chris, read your post again.
I haven't quoted it because I like you. You're a lovely human bring.
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The Daily Mail have issued an apology to Aston Villa Football Club and it reads as such:
The Mail on Sunday has issued the following apology to the Club: "Last week we said one Aston Villa player had thrown his Kick It Out shirt away in disgust and another had removed his early.
"The Mail on Sunday accepts that half the players were asked to remove shirts to split the squad during a pre-match warm-up.
"There was no protest and all the players fully support Kick It Out.
"We are happy to make that clear and apologise for any misunderstanding."
Blah blah blah.
Bollox to The Mail.
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Oh dear Chris, read your post again.
I haven't quoted it because I like you. You're a lovely human bring.
Oh heck, what have I done now?
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Read it. Carefully. *winky thing*
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Help me out here, I've retired upstairs with a headache/ borderline migraine whilst friends are round with their really loud children and am staring at my phone screen which isn't helping. Have I made myself look as bad as Delph? Am I a Fabian?
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Nothing drastic Chris. You just made a typo while pointing out a spelling mistake. Always the worst time to make a typo.
Fuck's sake, just read it you lazy sod!
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Damn. Thanks for lifting my spirits though Percy with those kind words. Back atcha!
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No probs Chris. We'll get by in time.
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I need you... too far?
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Yes. Must Fly.
(They're going in order now).
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Do you think we should check Mark is okay? He's usually made a haircut/Neil Diamond reference by now.
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He'll be fine. When the Villa disappoint him he goes off-line, drops an E and listens to The Style Council's house anthem Promised Land. Either that or he doesn't know what we're on about.
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We'll have to keep finding threads to get Wellet mentions in, keep moving and make it difficult for him. Might start a Weller haircut thread to keep him contained.
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Get a room you pair of bumders.
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In all fairness Aftab, I think it's perfectly reasonable to describe managers as black or white during a discussion about race and possible inequalities between managers of various races. I can't say that I've noticed the term "black manager" being regularly used in any other circumstance.
Well indeed. Quite what point Aftab was trying to make, I really don't know.
Yes agreed in the context of the discussion it's fine however my gripe is that I don't like the use of colour to describe a person or an action of a person. For example I often hear someone say "a white driver cut me up today" to which my response would be an idiot driver did that and not because he is white. Not sure if I have explained myself but there goes.
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In all fairness Aftab, I think it's perfectly reasonable to describe managers as black or white during a discussion about race and possible inequalities between managers of various races. I can't say that I've noticed the term "black manager" being regularly used in any other circumstance.
Well indeed. Quite what point Aftab was trying to make, I really don't know.
Yes agreed in the context of the discussion it's fine however my gripe is that I don't like the use of colour to describe a person or an action of a person. For example I often hear someone say "a white driver cut me up today" to which my response would be an idiot driver did that and not because he is white. Not sure if I have explained myself but there goes.
I get where you're coming from, but you can't have a discussion about racism without mentioning the colour of people's skin. In your example, the colour of the driver's skin is irrelevant. If we want to discuss why so few football managers are black, it's a bit unavoidable and entirely appropriate to call them black managers. If it's good enough for John Barnes:
“There are only two black managers [in English football's top fur divisions]. Why don’t we talk about the real issues instead of little incidents. That’s not dealing with it at all.” then it's good enough for me.
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Yeah, but if we had a black manager doing badly, no doubt people would be calling him a Black ****, just like they called O'Dreary an Irish ****, Houllier a Frog ****, TSM a Scottish ****, but did not refer to JG, for example, as an English ****.
The ****s.
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Yeah, but if we had a black manager doing badly, no doubt people would be calling him a Black ****, just like they called O'Dreary an Irish ****, Houllier a Frog ****, TSM a Scottish ****, but did not refer to JG, for example, as an English ****.
The ****s.
Rubbish.
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I think they would Riss.
Not everybody of course, but some. And he's right about JG as well.
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I think they would Riss.
Not everybody of course, but some. And he's right about JG as well.
Percy will remember the bloke two rows behind us who always prefaced every insult towards Houllier with the word 'French.' It's the old adage - a black lad playing up is a black lad playing up but a white lad playing up is just a lad playing up.
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Get a room you pair of bumders.
Indeed. What a couple of sad old Dad rock bores. Or should that be Grandad rock for Percy?
Your secret is safe with me, Percy. ;)
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That was my point exactly when you advised me, very correctly, last year not to repeat the name of the young asian man who was dragged across the concrete floor between the seats last year at the Emirates by a large group of "security" stewards and police and stood on while they handcuffed him for lighting a cigarette after the final whistle. They would not have done it to white anglo-saxon heterosexual able bodied males like my sons and me.
He was titchy and had a dark brown skin and a broad Brummie accent. It is called "low hanging fruit" by the forces of law and order.
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Well he did commit two crimes. Got what he deserved IMO!
Edited: well three actually as he had a brummie accent as well!
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Lighting a cigarette and what else?
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Lighting a cigarette and what else?
Huh... Dark skin silly!
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Shouting to the other Villa fans to witness the way he was being treated.
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That was my point exactly when you advised me, very correctly, last year not to repeat the name of the young asian man who was dragged across the concrete floor between the seats last year at the Emirates by a large group of "security" stewards and police and stood on while they handcuffed him for lighting a cigarette after the final whistle. They would not have done it to white anglo-saxon heterosexual able bodied males like my sons and me.
He was titchy and had a dark brown skin and a broad Brummie accent. It is called "low hanging fruit" by the forces of law and order.
I bet he hasn't had a crafty cigarette at a stadium since, though.
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That was my point exactly when you advised me, very correctly, last year not to repeat the name of the young asian man who was dragged across the concrete floor between the seats last year at the Emirates by a large group of "security" stewards and police and stood on while they handcuffed him for lighting a cigarette after the final whistle. They would not have done it to white anglo-saxon heterosexual able bodied males like my sons and me.
He was titchy and had a dark brown skin and a broad Brummie accent. It is called "low hanging fruit" by the forces of law and order.
Low hanging fruit is also used by many other people who prefer not to say easy pickings. It's certainly not an expression exclusive to the police.
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Of course Lizz but I have heard it used on more than one occasion by serving police officers and my point is that such an expression may be acceptable vernacular in everyday speech but applied to law enforcement it is in my opinion, to use the current cliche, inappropriate language.
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I think they would Riss.
Not everybody of course, but some. And he's right about JG as well.
Percy will remember the bloke two rows behind us who always prefaced every insult towards Houllier with the word 'French.' It's the old adage - a black lad playing up is a black lad playing up but a white lad playing up is just a lad playing up.
It just depends who the majority is. At a school in Jamaica it would be the other way round. There's nothing necessarily insidious about it.