Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: john e on October 13, 2010, 09:42:19 AM
-
Sorry, but he is.
i like many others on here believe he is our best player, the one who can do something different, create an opportunity out of nothing,
but.....
he goes down to easily, and last night although he got some harsh treatment throughout the match he blatently dived in the box,
it was a bit embarrasing and he should be making every effort to kick it out of his game
-
he really should... it gave the media an excuse to have a pop at him, despite him being the best performer on the pitch last night...
it really irritates me when he gets into good positions and then throws himself to the floor...
only decision the kraut referee got right all night...
-
The one where he dived out of the way of a challenge in the box? Or the one where there was contact inside the box?
-
The worst thing is that if he hadn't started to go down before the defender hit him I reckon he may well have have won a pen as the guy did take him out. Unfortunately the ref had seen that he was already halfway to ground before the defender caught him. It's not only embarrassing , he's his own and his team's worst enemy consistently wasting good positions and possession like that and I wish he'd pack it in.
-
The worst thing is that if he hadn't started to go down before the defender hit him I reckon he may well have have won a pen as the guy did take him out. Unfortunately the ref had seen that he was already halfway to ground before the defender caught him. It's not only embarrassing , he's his own and his team's worst enemy consistently wasting good positions and possession like that and I wish he'd pack it in.
Agree about the Ref and his linesmen though they were over fussy and missed about as blatant a handball as you will ever see.
-
The worst thing is that if he hadn't started to go down before the defender hit him I reckon he may well have have won a pen as the guy did take him out. Unfortunately the ref had seen that he was already halfway to ground before the defender caught him. It's not only embarrassing , he's his own and his team's worst enemy consistently wasting good positions and possession like that and I wish he'd pack it in.
Agree about the Ref and his linesmen though they were over fussy and missed about as blatant a handball as you will ever see.
-
I wish he's pack it in as well. I felt a bit embarrased watching the replay.
-
Blatant dive in my book and a deserved yellow card. He does it far too often and I hate it when he then runs back with his arms open wide staring incredulously at the ref. I thought last night summed Ashley up - some promising runs, not enough end product and falling over far too easily. Mind you, anything is better than Shaun Wright-Phillips who I didn't realise was even still a professional footballer...
-
Ash last night:-
Running at players was decent.
Set piece delivery was poor.
Diving was embarassing.
-
Some of his dives when he has been playing for us are embarrassing. I like him and he suits our counter attacking style but his diving is cringeworthy. I think he is good at what he does but his delivery is pretty one dimensional i.e. smash it hard across the face of the goal with some bend on it. Some times it works some times it ends up in the stand.
Most talented player on our books though.
-
I don't think it was a dive at all, He was trying to keep hold of the ball, Even Townsend said decision to book him was outragous
-
I think he was expecting the challege an started to react before he was actually hit - a bit girly but not a dive. He was taken out.
-
I don't think it was a dive at all, He was trying to keep hold of the ball, Even Townsend said decision to book him was outragous
And even ex-Villa captains can be wrong.
-
In all fairness, at that speed, you only have to be clipped slightly and you'll go flying.
-
I wish he would pack it in aswell but apart from that i thought he had a decent game.
-
In all fairness, at that speed, you only have to be clipped slightly and you'll go flying.
Yes, but that is some 'clip' when he starts going horizontal a foot in front of the player before contact!
-
In all fairness, at that speed, you only have to be clipped slightly and you'll go flying.
I agree and he was clipped. Was there another occasion that seems to be making everyone cringe? He pisses me off as much as anyone with his antics for us, but I don't see what he's done wrong on this occasion. Seems to me that he is getting a lot of stick (in the press) due to the overall performance of the team.
-
In all fairness, at that speed, you only have to be clipped slightly and you'll go flying.
I agree and he was clipped. Was there another occasion that seems to be making everyone cringe? He pisses me off as much as anyone with his antics for us, but I don't see what he's done wrong on this occasion. Seems to me that he is getting a lot of stick (in the press) due to the overall performance of the team.
Yes he was, but as others have pointed out he was clipped a second after he started to head to the floor. It was very similar to Arsenal away last year. He was going to be fouled but starts to react to the foul before it happens and the ref sees it rightly(?) as exaggeration and a dive.
-
I don't think it was a dive at all, He was trying to keep hold of the ball, Even Townsend said decision to book him was outragous
Nice to have it definitely confirmed then that it was a dive. Townsend talks a load of drivel, much as I loved him down the Villa...
-
It's no surprise fans of other teams hate him. When he's diving around like that I find it difficult not to hate him.
If he played for someone else...
-
So were there more than one occasion when he "dived"? People are talking like he rolled around the floor for 90 minutes.
-
For England Young played for the penalty and was rightly booked for it.
If he played for any other team he would be a Ronaldoesque hate figure for me.
Question: has Young ever performed consistently well against the top teams?
-
He definitely started the dive before he was touched. I swear I even caught a cheeky grin on his face as he started his tripple sulko.
-
I agree he is a diver.
I'd like him to cut it out of his game but I doubt that he will.
-
Just watch how few free kicks we get awarded now when Ash gets scythed to the ground in the future.Although I agree he's a bit of a diver
-
He is a diver.
He is always on the way down before the tackle is made.
-
He is a diver and therefore a cheat. He dives so high and elaborately I fear he will injure himself on landing. I know they talk about kicking players in the air, but nobody will naturally move through the air like our Ash just from being kicked in the leg. It is a real gripe of mine about modern wingers as well, they look to draw a foul, whereas you would never see Morley or those type of guys do that, they wanted to beat the man and deliver. It wasn't so bad when Ash was pinging in great deliveries and we were scoring lots from set plays, but that is no longer really the case. I also get wound up when he lets the ball go out for a throw, how is that of more benefit to us than our best player with the ball at his feet on the touchline. Other general gripes are blatant obstruction not being penalised when a player shepherds the ball out of play and our defenders knocking it back to Friedel, how can he be more accurate from 30 yards further back? I can understand when Dunney and co. are under pressure but sometimes they can't see an obvious pass on so casually knock it back.
-
In all fairness, at that speed, you only have to be clipped slightly and you'll go flying.
I agree and he was clipped. Was there another occasion that seems to be making everyone cringe? He pisses me off as much as anyone with his antics for us, but I don't see what he's done wrong on this occasion. Seems to me that he is getting a lot of stick (in the press) due to the overall performance of the team.
It was only really the one time, but he was still wrong since it cost England a potential penalty from the challenge that happened after he'd started diving, or, if he hadn't been clipped, he may have retained possession in a dangerous area. "Anticipating" the foul like that was unnecessary and self defeating.
Agree with Pedro25, it does seem to happen a lot these days that players prefer to buy a foul than try to do something with the ball. I blame the authorities and refs for penalising almost any bit of contact, however innocuous, especially if someone goes down from it.
-
Ashley Young, modern footballer.
It's part of the game and singling him out is like singling out a pigeon for shitting on the floor. Players try to gain advantage by cheating where they can; defenders by kicking and pulling the opposition and attackers by trying to take the most of any contact. For some reason in this country kicking an opponent is considered less bad cheating than diving.
-
At least kicking is a natural action associated to the game, it's usually hard to argue if a defender claims he went to kick the ball but mis timed it. L Young on the OS states that it is difficult to make the perfect tackle when a winger who can do the 100 metres in 11 seconds is bombing past you. I think it's harsh to say defenders kicking forwards is cheating, as the guys move so quickly these days. I agree holding shirts in the penalty area is cheating and should be penalised more often by refs, also swearing, I can't believe Rooney still gets away with saying f' off you n0b to a ref, what a great example to kids. I also hate the pundits standard reaction to penalty claims, "it must be a pen, there was contact". So? It's a contact sport, there is contact all across the pitch, it's only if that contact is enough to be deemed foul play should a pen be awarded, not just any mere touch.
-
By reading the majority of posts in this thread it is obvious no-one here has played football at a high level.
Ashley Young is about 5'9 and looks like he weighs no more than 60 kilos... when he is running at a velocity speed the SLIGHTEST of touches by some defender who weighs about 20 kilos more than him of course he's going to go down, he can't help it, it's how the laws of physics work. Do people sersiouly think that Ashley Young works out a 'diving stratergy' pre-game? When you're running with the ball with 70,000 screaming England fans all you think about what is currently happening now, your mind doesn't wander and think ''hmm, now how should I try and win a penalty here... should I attempt a Gerrard starfish or should I go down and do 5 roll roly poly''.
I hate it when people single out a player for diving, most players do it nowadays but what upsets me even more is supposed Villa 'fans' branding our best player as a 'cheat'. We're very lucky to have a player like Ash, so just stop this nonsense.
-
At least kicking is a natural action associated to the game, it's usually hard to argue if a defender claims he went to kick the ball but mis timed it. L Young on the OS states that it is difficult to make the perfect tackle when a winger who can do the 100 metres in 11 seconds is bombing past you. I think it's harsh to say defenders kicking forwards is cheating, as the guys move so quickly these days. I agree holding shirts in the penalty area is cheating and should be penalised more often by refs, also swearing, I can't believe Rooney still gets away with saying f' off you n0b to a ref, what a great example to kids. I also hate the pundits standard reaction to penalty claims, "it must be a pen, there was contact". So? It's a contact sport, there is contact all across the pitch, it's only if that contact is enough to be deemed foul play should a pen be awarded, not just any mere touch.
The probelm is defenders do enough to impede and slow up forwards but not enough to knock them over. Useless refs will only award the fould if the player foes down so they're encouraging them to make the most of it because if they don't the defender gains an unfair advantage.
-
He need to cut it out otherwise every genuine foul will not be awarded due to his reputation of being a diver.
-
I agree refs not penalising does not help.
Last night there was 2 offences one coming quickly after the other, firstly Ash dived, secondly he was fouled and rightly so the first offence stopped play and was punished, the second was after the whistle in essence (if not in reality due to the speed of the event).
I cannot understand the mentality of Ash, imagine you are playing for England at Wembley and you burst through into the penalty box, it would take a herd of elephants to take me off my feet to stop me having the opportunity to score. I do accept that at high speed slight contact can unbalance players and can be a penalty, but last night Ash dived before the challenge. He wasn't even diving out of the way to avoid potential injury he dived to con the ref, whether it was instinctive or premeditated I dont know, but he does it regularly for Villa so I do think his mentality before a game is to win at all costs, including diving where he thinks he can get away with it. Last night proved he doesn't need to do it, as it cost England 3 points, had he not dived he would have been fouled and a pen awarded.
-
All footballers dive, so what? He's a fantastic player and I love having here at our club. Start banning players for diving retrospectively and it'll stop over night. Until then though it'll be part of the game. There's worse divers out there anyway - certainly worse than Young. He's that quick and agile, even the slightest contact will bring him down. So the accusations he's a diver are exaggerated. He's no more a diver than most other players out there.
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
-
By reading the majority of posts in this thread it is obvious no-one here has played football at a high level.
Ashley Young is about 5'9 and looks like he weighs no more than 60 kilos... when he is running at a velocity speed the SLIGHTEST of touches by some defender who weighs about 20 kilos more than him of course he's going to go down, he can't help it, it's how the laws of physics work. Do people sersiouly think that Ashley Young works out a 'diving stratergy' pre-game? When you're running with the ball with 70,000 screaming England fans all you think about what is currently happening now, your mind doesn't wander and think ''hmm, now how should I try and win a penalty here... should I attempt a Gerrard starfish or should I go down and do 5 roll roly poly''.
I hate it when people single out a player for diving, most players do it nowadays but what upsets me even more is supposed Villa 'fans' branding our best player as a 'cheat'. We're very lucky to have a player like Ash, so just stop this nonsense.
Spot on.
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
-
Unquestionably yes! He dives far too much. Not just blatant dives, but he falls over far, far too often looking for free-kicks. The worst part is he'll often waste good opportunities by going to ground to easily. He'd be a much better player if he cut that shit out!
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
i agree with you about the refs,
but diving is still cheating and just because every body does it doent make it alright.
we hate it when it goes against us with Drogba or Ronaldo in the past,
so we cant just brush it under the carpet just because he's one of us,
plus the fact that he didnt gain anything, and he will more and more be marked out as a diver, which might cost us at some time
i like every body else thinks Ashley Young is a great player, but he does himself no favours with all the diving about,
and just because he's a Villa player doesnt mean we should be hypocritical about it
-
Sad to say it , but yes ash has got himself a reputation for diving and he does dive on occasions.
It will do him no favours when he is fouled as referees will be reluctant to give it unless certain because he's dived so many times-that aside his form this season seems to be much more consistent so far And long may he continue this rich vein in form.
-
By reading the majority of posts in this thread it is obvious no-one here has played football at a high level.
Ashley Young is about 5'9 and looks like he weighs no more than 60 kilos... when he is running at a velocity speed the SLIGHTEST of touches by some defender who weighs about 20 kilos more than him of course he's going to go down, he can't help it, it's how the laws of physics work. Do people sersiouly think that Ashley Young works out a 'diving stratergy' pre-game? When you're running with the ball with 70,000 screaming England fans all you think about what is currently happening now, your mind doesn't wander and think ''hmm, now how should I try and win a penalty here... should I attempt a Gerrard starfish or should I go down and do 5 roll roly poly''.
I hate it when people single out a player for diving, most players do it nowadays but what upsets me even more is supposed Villa 'fans' branding our best player as a 'cheat'. We're very lucky to have a player like Ash, so just stop this nonsense.
So where was the slightest touch that sent Ash down in the box a second before he reached the defender? The one he was booked for.
No-one's saying the lad hasn't got talent. But it's not in the spirit or the laws of the game to attempt to deceive the referee through simulating a foul. Such ungentlemanly conduct doesn't sit well with most people.
-
There's a big difference in the way someone falls when they've genuinely been knocked off balance at speed, and the way someone falls when they're diving. Certainly for the pen incident, Ash was blatantly, as blatant can be, diving. No question.
Given his slight frame he doesn't need to do it, he wins so many fouls in a game as it is, without having to try and win more by foul means, when staying on his feet and pumping in a cross or a shot might be more sensible. He's actually one of the worst in the Prem right now, much as I hate to say it.
He really needs to cut it out.
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
i agree with you about the refs,
but diving is still cheating and just because every body does it doent make it alright.
we hate it when it goes against us with Drogba or Ronaldo in the past,
so we cant just brush it under the carpet just because he's one of us,
plus the fact that he didnt gain anything, and he will more and more be marked out as a diver, which might cost us at some time
i like every body else thinks Ashley Young is a great player, but he does himself no favours with all the diving about,
and just because he's a Villa player doesnt mean we should be hypocritical about it
I have to say I completely agree. I hate footballers who cheat and think it makes it more difficult in the longer term even if it might (and I emphasize that might) mean short term gain.
-
I started a similar thread quite a while ago. It did not go down too well (!). As great a player as he is, I still think he goes to ground too easily.
-
Says on tme media reports pm on OS that he's a doubt for Chelsea game.Did he pick up a knock ?
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
But why is some cheating Ok, e.g. fouling or claiming a corner when you know it isn't, yet diving or simulation is always singled out to be somehow morally reprehensible?
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
But why is some cheating Ok, e.g. fouling or claiming a corner when you know it isn't, yet diving or simulation is always singled out to be somehow morally reprehensible?
I wouldn't say that it was ok.
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
But why is some cheating Ok, e.g. fouling or claiming a corner when you know it isn't, yet diving or simulation is always singled out to be somehow morally reprehensible?
I wouldn't say that it was ok.
We don't get threads like this about any other type of 'cheating'.
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
But why is some cheating Ok, e.g. fouling or claiming a corner when you know it isn't, yet diving or simulation is always singled out to be somehow morally reprehensible?
I wouldn't say that it was ok.
We don't get threads like this about any other type of 'cheating'.
If we had a player who fouled people considerably more often than was the norm, I bet we would have threads about it on here.
I bet Sunderland forums have threads about Cattermole and how he shouldn't foul people as much.
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
But why is some cheating Ok, e.g. fouling or claiming a corner when you know it isn't, yet diving or simulation is always singled out to be somehow morally reprehensible?
I wouldn't say that it was ok.
We don't get threads like this about any other type of 'cheating'.
If we had a player who fouled people considerably more often than was the norm, I bet we would have threads about it on here.
I bet Sunderland forums have threads about Cattermole and how he shouldn't foul people as much.
It's more than that though, you're adding a moral perspective. Is Cattermole kicking people morally wrong? if so every player in the world is at times guilty of it.
In this country we have decided that diving is somehow 'bad cheating' yet kicking lumps out of each other is 'good cheating'. Paul Scholes is one of the dirtiest players in the league yet I don't think any of us would have said no had we signed him at his peak.
-
It's more than that though, you're adding a moral perspective. Is Cattermole kicking people morally wrong? if so every player in the world is at times guilty of it.
In this country we have decided that diving is somehow 'bad cheating' yet kicking lumps out of each other is 'good cheating'. Paul Scholes is one of the dirtiest players in the league yet I don't think any of us would have said no had we signed him at his peak.
No, but if he then spent games deliberately fouling people I would want him to stop doing so regardless of how good a player he was. And I don't really think that anyone thinks that kicking lumps out of people is good.
I don't think anyone is saying that we shouldn't have bought Young or that they don't want him to play for us. They want him to carry on playing well but without the unnecessary diving.
I'm realistic enough to know that neither deliberate fouling nor deliberate diving is going to stop anytime soon, from our players or opposition players. But that doesn't mean I have to condone them either.
-
It's more than that though, you're adding a moral perspective. Is Cattermole kicking people morally wrong? if so every player in the world is at times guilty of it.
In this country we have decided that diving is somehow 'bad cheating' yet kicking lumps out of each other is 'good cheating'. Paul Scholes is one of the dirtiest players in the league yet I don't think any of us would have said no had we signed him at his peak.
No, but if he then spent games deliberately fouling people I would want him to stop doing so regardless of how good a player he was. And I don't really think that anyone thinks that kicking lumps out of people is good.
I don't think anyone is saying that we shouldn't have bought Young or that they don't want him to play for us. They want him to carry on playing well but without the unnecessary diving.
I'm realistic enough to know that neither deliberate fouling nor deliberate diving is going to stop anytime soon, from our players or opposition players. But that doesn't mean I have to condone them either.
I'm not condoning them either, just accepting that footballers will always do whatever it takes (that they can get away with) to gain an advantage. However, because defenders know that they've got the moral majority on their side you see them standing over players berating them for diving even though they know they've caught them.
-
In general I think Ash gets some pretty rough treatment from the opposition. Some of them he gets and some of them he doesn't. If defenders can sometimes get away with taking him out I can kind of sympathise with him for taking a few liberties himself every now and again.
-
Defenders cheat blatantly and openly whilst hacking him down. So for every 10 times that he is stopped unfairly (by cheats) he tries to get one over them by simulation.
Nothing wrong with that. Carry on Ash.
-
We don't get threads like this about any other type of 'cheating'.
We would get threads just as big if one of our players was a thug or a constant niggly fouling twat, but none of them are particularly. Ashley however is a diver, and as a Villa player who dives he will get discussed on here.
Do you condone all cheating or only that perpetuated by Villa players?
-
Defenders cheat blatantly and openly whilst hacking him down. So for every 10 times that he is stopped unfairly (by cheats) he tries to get one over them by simulation.
Nothing wrong with that. Carry on Ash.
Me and you have made the best posts in this thread.
TECHNICIALLY it is cheating when defenders are constantly hacking Ash (it's funny how some people in this thread don't notice and realise that Ash takes a lot of shit off defenders, they only highlight his 'diving' yawnz), because in the laws of the game hacking and trying to paralyse a player's lower-body is not permitted. It goes both ways ya know.
-
http://refarbiter.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/diving-cheating-simulation/
Article about the mechanics of diving
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
But why is some cheating Ok, e.g. fouling or claiming a corner when you know it isn't, yet diving or simulation is always singled out to be somehow morally reprehensible?
I wouldn't say that it was ok.
We don't get threads like this about any other type of 'cheating'.
If we had a player who fouled people considerably more often than was the norm, I bet we would have threads about it on here.
I bet Sunderland forums have threads about Cattermole and how he shouldn't foul people as much.
It's more than that though, you're adding a moral perspective. Is Cattermole kicking people morally wrong? if so every player in the world is at times guilty of it.
In this country we have decided that diving is somehow 'bad cheating' yet kicking lumps out of each other is 'good cheating'. Paul Scholes is one of the dirtiest players in the league yet I don't think any of us would have said no had we signed him at his peak.
Scholes isn't dirty, he just 'isn't very good at tackling'. Tsk, don't you listen to the match commentators?
-
And as a rule, we don't tend to like anything that isn't 'British'. So kicking lumps out of someone is fine, because that's the English game for you, its physical. When someone throws themselves to ground though, without actually being tackled, that's not British (although it clearly has transferred to our players), but seen as a 'foreign' trait.
-
fouling can be cheating, but it isn't always, if you try to play the ball but miss and catch the man, how is that cheating? But I can't see how diving can ever not be cheating.
-
tackling is part and parcel of the game, any book on the techniques of football will have a chapter on tackling, and how to make good tackles.
any one 'kicking lumps' will be cautioned and sent of if neccesary.
you wont find the chapter on Diving, because its not part of the game,
Athletes wont find the chapter on the best drugs to use because its not part of athletics, but we all know it goes on,
Cricketers wont find the chapter on spot betting, because its not supposed to be part of the game, but it still happens,
what do we do just say, well we know it all happens lets just accept it as part of the game
to say you wont stop blatent diving and cheating in football, and go along with the 'everyone does it, so its ok if we do' is to condone it
-
Tackling is part of the game.
Diving is part of the game, but shouldn't be.
Young is cringeworthy at times, I wish he'd cut it out.
-
10 10 10 9 10 from the judges for that dive... He could teach Tom Daley a few tricks
-
We don't get threads like this about any other type of 'cheating'.
We would get threads just as big if one of our players was a thug or a constant niggly fouling twat, but none of them are particularly. Ashley however is a diver, and as a Villa player who dives he will get discussed on here.
Do you condone all cheating or only that perpetuated by Villa players?
I've already answered that a few posts above, I'll post it again to make it easier for you.
I'm not condoning them either, just accepting that footballers will always do whatever it takes (that they can get away with) to gain an advantage.
It's part of the game to push the rules as far as you can. If players weren't like that we wouldn't need refs as they'd just own up to every misdemeanour. I just find the little Englander attitude that diving is worse, and despite all the denials that is in essence what this thread is about, a little odd.
-
Me and you have made the best posts in this thread.
That's rather presumptious of you, personally I don't think much of your posts at all, especially as you have used the word "yawnz", At least you haven't used "lolwut" in this thread yet.
TECHNICIALLY it is cheating when defenders are constantly hacking Ash (it's funny how some people in this thread don't notice and realise that Ash takes a lot of shit off defenders, they only highlight his 'diving' yawnz), because in the laws of the game hacking and trying to paralyse a player's lower-body is not permitted. It goes both ways ya know.
Fouls are punished by free-kicks, penalties and sometimes bookings, if Ash stopped hurling himself into the air before he is even touched then he wouldn't have a reputation for diving.
-
tackling is part and parcel of the game, any book on the techniques of football will have a chapter on tackling, and how to make good tackles.
any one 'kicking lumps' will be cautioned and sent of if neccesary.
you wont find the chapter on Diving, because its not part of the game,
Athletes wont find the chapter on the best drugs to use because its not part of athletics, but we all know it goes on,
Cricketers wont find the chapter on spot betting, because its not supposed to be part of the game, but it still happens,
what do we do just say, well we know it all happens lets just accept it as part of the game
to say you wont stop blatent diving and cheating in football, and go along with the 'everyone does it, so its ok if we do' is to condone it
What about blocking off in the penalty area, shirt pulling, claiming a corner when you know it is a goal kick, taking dead balls from the wrong place deliberately, appealing for offside when you know it isn't, not owning up when you know you are offside...
Cheating takes many forms, we don't make moral claims for any of the others.
-
Me and you have made the best posts in this thread.
That's rather presumptious of you, personally I don't think much of your posts at all, especially as you have used the word "yawnz", At least you haven't used "lolwut" in this thread yet.
TECHNICIALLY it is cheating when defenders are constantly hacking Ash (it's funny how some people in this thread don't notice and realise that Ash takes a lot of shit off defenders, they only highlight his 'diving' yawnz), because in the laws of the game hacking and trying to paralyse a player's lower-body is not permitted. It goes both ways ya know.
Fouls are punished by free-kicks, penalties and sometimes bookings, if Ash stopped hurling himself into the air before he is even touched then he wouldn't have a reputation for diving.
Your naivety is charming.
Of course fouls aren't all punished, Ash is far more sinned against than sinner. In any game he is fouled more often without it getting spotted by the ref compared to the odd time he might try to regain an advantage by exaggerating his fall.
-
I dont agree that players will do whatever it takes to gain an advantage. A couple of years ago they brought in a law that play should continue if a player is down unless the ref blows his whistle and he will only do this for a head injury (or presumably leg break/other obvious serious injury). However time and time again since our players and other team's players still knock the ball out when a player is down even if the ref hasn't blown. I find it slightly irritating as there is an obvious advantage to be gained, but it shows good sportmanship, diving does not.
-
Ash being fouled by a player trying to get the ball is far less sinful than him diving and cheating.
-
We should ask ourselves how come Ashley has hardly missed a game for Villa despite having a frame that means he has to run around to get wet in the shower and being an open invitation for some heavy tackling to put him off his game. I've always been impressed by the way he manages to avoid the worst of challenges and when he doesn't (I remember a particularly nasty challenge from De Jong last year), how he gets up and gets on with the game. Sometimes I agree he goes down too easily and too theatrically; other times its sheer self-protection that allows him to keep playing week after week when he could be picking uo injury after injury.
-
We ought to start a new thread examining why Carew's performances this season have been so lacklustre and devoid of energy
Carew - Muff diver?
-
We ought to start a new thread examining why Carew's performances this season have been so lacklustre and devoid of energy
Carew - Muff diver?
John Carew Carew
Gets more flange flange than me and you
No muff is too tough it's true
For Big John Carew
He just loves to screw
And he likes a chew
On a clunge or two
-
Ash being fouled by a player trying to get the ball is far less sinful than him diving and cheating.
"Reeeeffffereeee, when I pulled his shirt and then swiped his legs from under him from behind it was an honest attempt to get the ball".
-
In the great words of Jim Rome "If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying and it’s only cheating if you get caught"
what about bribing the ref before the game to let you have a penalty,
would that be OK in your cheating is ok as long as you dont get caught world ?
But this is winning a penalty but exaggeration, not bribery. He was fouled twice, if referees were more willing to give penalties for fouls without people throwing themself to the floor then less people would dive.
It was blatant cheating and horrible when Pennant dived in the 90th minute which meant we lost to Stoke.
It's no less morally wrong when Young does the same.
Except there was contact between Young and and the defender, there wasn't between Pennant and Petrov.
this has nothing to do with Young being a Villa player. He cheats a hell of a lot, but I don't think he did on this occasion.
-
Except there was contact between Young and and the defender, there wasn't between Pennant and Petrov.
Disagree. The replays clearly showed that at the point where Young launched himself towards the ground there was no contact. The referee was correct in his punishment.
-
Except there was contact between Young and and the defender, there wasn't between Pennant and Petrov.
Disagree. The replays clearly showed that at the point where Young launched himself towards the ground there was no contact. The referee was correct in his punishment.
I think he was avoiding the tackle to escape injury rather than diving for a penalty. So he should not have been booked, but the case for a penalty would be weak. If Ash had not become adept in this aspect of his game, his appearances would be reduced by at least 40%, I reckon. It is a shame that he does often overdo the theatrics, because the refs will surely have marked his card by now.
This reminds me of a trick often used by John Terry, where he goes to ground an draws his leg back as if about to scythe the attacker down but doesn't follow through. The attacking player usually goes over in an attempt to avoid injury and the referee usually gives nothing, or books the player who has fallen over.
By the way, referees who post on this site have pointed out that there does not need to be contact for a foul to be given.
-
tackling is part and parcel of the game, any book on the techniques of football will have a chapter on tackling, and how to make good tackles.
any one 'kicking lumps' will be cautioned and sent of if neccesary.
you wont find the chapter on Diving, because its not part of the game,
Athletes wont find the chapter on the best drugs to use because its not part of athletics, but we all know it goes on,
Cricketers wont find the chapter on spot betting, because its not supposed to be part of the game, but it still happens,
what do we do just say, well we know it all happens lets just accept it as part of the game
to say you wont stop blatent diving and cheating in football, and go along with the 'everyone does it, so its ok if we do' is to condone it
What about blocking off in the penalty area, shirt pulling, claiming a corner when you know it is a goal kick, taking dead balls from the wrong place deliberately, appealing for offside when you know it isn't, not owning up when you know you are offside...
Cheating takes many forms, we don't make moral claims for any of the others.
so because a player appeals for an offside decision when he knows its not, thats an excuse for open season on all forms of cheating
theres always big sins and little sins in every thing,
if you are doing 31 in a 30 mile an hour limit, technicaly you are a law breaker, and have commited a driving crime, but its not the same as drinking a bottle of whisky and ploughing into a bus que,
one is a big sin the other not so,
same in football, what Henry did against the Irish with the handball was an absolute disgrace,
i can honestly say that if Villa won the european cup like that i would be embarressed and discussted, i know not every one feels the same way, and its win at all costs, but not for me
what would you say if we druged the water for the opposition to gain a advantage , or as i have said before bribed the ref, you cant just say, 'well they appealed for a corner which wasnt theres' you'd get laughed out of court,
diving is cheating, and the game does not need it, and the FA should clamp down on it, same as shirt pulling, blocking or whatever else is against the rules,
to give up and say, well every one s a cheat so lets see what we can get away with is the very antithisis of sport
-
tackling is part and parcel of the game, any book on the techniques of football will have a chapter on tackling, and how to make good tackles.
any one 'kicking lumps' will be cautioned and sent of if neccesary.
you wont find the chapter on Diving, because its not part of the game,
Athletes wont find the chapter on the best drugs to use because its not part of athletics, but we all know it goes on,
Cricketers wont find the chapter on spot betting, because its not supposed to be part of the game, but it still happens,
what do we do just say, well we know it all happens lets just accept it as part of the game
to say you wont stop blatent diving and cheating in football, and go along with the 'everyone does it, so its ok if we do' is to condone it
What about blocking off in the penalty area, shirt pulling, claiming a corner when you know it is a goal kick, taking dead balls from the wrong place deliberately, appealing for offside when you know it isn't, not owning up when you know you are offside...
Cheating takes many forms, we don't make moral claims for any of the others.
so because a player appeals for an offside decision when he knows its not, thats an excuse for open season on all forms of cheating
theres always big sins and little sins in every thing,
if you are doing 31 in a 30 mile an hour limit, technicaly you are a law breaker, and have commited a driving crime, but its not the same as drinking a bottle of whisky and ploughing into a bus que,
one is a big sin the other not so,
same in football, what Henry did against the Irish with the handball was an absolute disgrace,
i can honestly say that if Villa won the european cup like that i would be embarressed and discussted, i know not every one feels the same way, and its win at all costs, but not for me
what would you say if we druged the water for the opposition to gain a advantage , or as i have said before bribed the ref, you cant just say, 'well they appealed for a corner which wasnt theres' you'd get laughed out of court,
diving is cheating, and the game does not need it, and the FA should clamp down on it, same as shirt pulling, blocking or whatever else is against the rules,
to give up and say, well every one s a cheat so lets see what we can get away with is the very antithisis of sport
Who is advocating giving up?
I'm saying that the moral indignation about this form of cheating but not others is stupid and hypocritical.
The only reason that this is such an issue is because the British view is that it is somehow unmanly to cheat in this way yet less bad to cheat by other means. The net result of claiming an offside that isn't is a feee kick, the same as claiming a free kick when you haven't been fouled; so they are in effect the same offence. To claim one as better than the other makes no sense.
Why do you think sports have refs or umpires? If players weren't trying to get away with whatever they could there'd be no need.
-
He dived into the foul, if he stayed on his feet he would have had less chance of injury. Some fouls on Ash are cynical, most just clumsy
-
Except there was contact between Young and and the defender, there wasn't between Pennant and Petrov.
Disagree. The replays clearly showed that at the point where Young launched himself towards the ground there was no contact. The referee was correct in his punishment.
Is there not a difference between diving to the ground without contact and drawing contact (of which there definitely was some) from a defender. Half the time, if Young stayed on his feet he'd end up injured because of "cheating" defenders.
-
He dived into the foul, if he stayed on his feet he would have had less chance of injury. Some fouls on Ash are cynical, most just clumsy
How would he have had more chance on injury by minimising contact?
Edit.
-
He'll go down, roll around, get up and limp around for a few minutes. Then he'll be ok.
He does it every game.
-
He dived towards the foul, if a big defender charged him when he was on two feet he would be far more stable than if he clattered through him while he was mid air and completely off balance. If you want to avoid that type of challenge you hit the brakes or try and side step it, you dont fling yourself at it.
-
Yes he is a diver. That is all.
-
Yup he's a diver. dont think he's going to change either
-
Me and you have made the best posts in this thread.
That's rather presumptious of you, personally I don't think much of your posts at all, especially as you have used the word "yawnz", At least you haven't used "lolwut" in this thread yet.
TECHNICIALLY it is cheating when defenders are constantly hacking Ash (it's funny how some people in this thread don't notice and realise that Ash takes a lot of shit off defenders, they only highlight his 'diving' yawnz), because in the laws of the game hacking and trying to paralyse a player's lower-body is not permitted. It goes both ways ya know.
Fouls are punished by free-kicks, penalties and sometimes bookings, if Ash stopped hurling himself into the air before he is even touched then he wouldn't have a reputation for diving.
Sorry if my posts aren't good enough for you, I did get an A in my English G.C.S.E's though.
Chris Smith kinda took the words out of my mouth when he responded to this quote. There are loads and loads of blatant fouls that go unpunished... do you remember when Nigel De Thug crippled Ben Arfa's legs a couple of weeks ago? I'd say that is a hell of a lot worse than Ash going to ground despite his shirt being pulled or getting clipped by a defender.
Besides, how many times do I have to say that Ash only has a small frame and just a small knock will knock him down - he can't help it.
-
If Ben Arfa had got straight up no one would have ever mentioned that challenge, as there are worse challenges every week in the Prem. It was a poor challenge, but it was one footed along the ground, if we wipe out that sort of challenge I think it would be a poorer game to watch.
-
I think the bigger problem here is referees in all honesty. Next time Carew plays watch how many times free kicks aren't given too him because he stays up and how many times free kicks are given against him because the defender falls over. In a microcosm he shows everything that's wrong with modern refereeing. Players like Ash going down easy are a result of this not the other way round.
-
Yep agree with that Paul, in the Bolton match Knight had ahold of Gabby all game, there were countless infringements that went unpunished becasue Gabby tried to stand his ground and the ref was useless. Chicken and egg situation though, both refs and diving need sorting somehow.
-
If Ben Arfa had got straight up no one would have ever mentioned that challenge, as there are worse challenges every week in the Prem. It was a poor challenge, but it was one footed along the ground, if we wipe out that sort of challenge I think it would be a poorer game to watch.
"if we wipe out that sort of challenge I think it would be a poorer game to watch."
That sort of challenge broke Ben Arfa's leg!
The rules are pretty simple, don't go making any two-footed tackles and don't go making any tackles where your studs show. If thicko footballers actually read the the rules and not act like thugs there would be less broken ankles and legs in football, just go for the ball and you would be in with a chance of getting sent off.
-
I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.
"Everybody does it, why pick on Young?". No they don't. e.g. Have a look at Adam Johnson, I've yet to see him dive and he always seems to try and stay on his feet even when clipped. See also Milner, Albrighton and many many other wingers who don't feel the need to fall down like a dainty fainting lady every time a defender comes within a metre of them. Young gets singled out because he is one of the worst, most persistent offenders, along with the likes of Drogba, Gerrard, and Ladyboy when he was here. Simple.
"But he takes so much stick". Sure he does but it's utterly irrelevant to the diving debate. It's up to the ref to penalise any genuine fouls.
"It's no worse than many other forms of cheating, why concentrate on this particular form of cheating". Because we are talking about a particular player and a particualer type of incident which is too typical of him and detrimental to the team. I agree with Dave, if we had a player who conceded too many needless fouls or committed too many dangerous challenges then I'm sure there would be a thread calling for him to cut it out, since again it is detrimental to the team. To liken it to claiming a corner unjustly is laughable.
"But he was caught" Yes, he was, but after he'd started diving. Which made it all the more stupid as he might have got a pen if he hadn't dived.
"He is just trying to avoid injury" Then he shouldn't be such a pussy and maybe he is in the wrong job. See other wingers listed above who dont seem to feel the need to avoid challenges by falling over all the time.
"He's so lightweight that he's bound to go down at the merest touch". Missing the point completely in that like Tuesday night he often goes down without being touched or before being touched.
Why can't you just face facts, however talented he may be, the bloke is a diver, and everyone without claret and blue specs on can see it.
-
I don't think it's 'diving' in the traditional sense, so much as looking for the appropriate amount of contact to win a free-kick. It's rare that a player completely dives nowadays, because with all the TV coverage they'd get slaughtered.
Now the trick appears to be, 'how can I get clipped just enough to justify going down?' This means refs have any even harder job because they're not deciding if there was contact, but whether the fouled player went looking for contact and manufactured the foul (which Ash does an awful lot).
His booking for England was a definite case of him looking for the contact, as he was already partially on the way down when he was hit. But it WAS a foul, and had he stayed upright until the challenge I think he might have got the pen.
-
It's up to the ref to penalise any genuine fouls.
Your whole argument falls down (pun intended) right there. Defenders get away with many fouls every game due to incompetent officials, clever forwards try to redress the balance. Your claim that others don't do it is just laughable.
-
Please explain Chris how the fact that defenders sometimes get away with fouls means my argument that Young is a diver falls down. Even if he is doing it to redress some imaginary balance, and/or is being clever, it's still diving. And I wouldn't say Young losing England the chance of a pen by diving was particualrly clever.
Please clarify how me clearly mentioning three players who, like Young, are renowned and rightly chastised for regularly diving means I have claimed that others dont do it? Interesting interpretation.
It's fairly obvious I said not everyone does it - as some have claimed. And I even provided examples.
But feel free to laugh away at something you have made up.
-
I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.
Like my one? He didn't dive?
-
I'd like to revisit this thread if Drogba gets breathed on the wrong way by Luke Young for the winning penalty on Saturday.
-
I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.
Like my one? He didn't dive?
That's not an excuse, it's denial. I don think too many independent observers would agree with you.
-
Please explain Chris how the fact that defenders sometimes get away with fouls means my argument that Young is a diver falls down. Even if he is doing it to redress some imaginary balance, and/or is being clever, it's still diving. And I wouldn't say Young losing England the chance of a pen by diving was particualrly clever.
Please clarify how me clearly mentioning three players who, like Young, are renowned and rightly chastised for regularly diving means I have claimed that others dont do it? Interesting interpretation.
It's fairly obvious I said not everyone does it - as some have claimed. And I even provided examples.
But feel free to laugh away at something you have made up.
You're the one making things up, I've seen Adam Johnson, Marc Albrighton and James Milner all claim fouls that weren't. Young's problem, if there is one, is that he's not as good at it as some others.
As I said before it's just a little Englander mentality to decry this aspect of the game, because it's somehow all a bit Johnny Foreigner while hardly batting an eyelid at all of the other myriad forms of cheating that go on in every single game.
If your argument is for the ref to sort it out when it comes to fouls then the same applies to diving.
Once again I'm not condoning it, just making the point that it's no better or worse than many other offences .
-
I didn't think it was a dive, for what it's worth.
-
So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver. Hysterical in both senses of the word.
And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young. For diving.
-
So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver. Hysterical in both senses of the word.
And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young. For diving.
It's not hysterical in any sense of the word, that's just you struggling for an argument.
Exactly, the ref sorted it out. So why the need for anything else?
I'll repeat as you appear to be a little slow on the uptake. I accept that diving is cheating but it is only one of the many forms it takes and it is hypocritical to make more of this type than others. They'll all be dealt with by the ref if spotted and it is only because in this country it is considered to be somehow associated with those pesky foreigners that it gets treated with such scorn.
-
So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver. Hysterical in both senses of the word.
And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young. For diving.
It's not hysterical in any sense of the word, that's just you struggling for an argument.
Exactly, the ref sorted it out. So why the need for anything else?
I'll repeat as you appear to be a little slow on the uptake. I accept that diving is cheating but it is only one of the many forms it takes and it is hypocritical to make more of this type than others. They'll all be dealt with by the ref if spotted and it is only because in this country it is considered to be somehow associated with those pesky foreigners that it gets treated with such scorn.
Chris you can rant about "other forms of cheating" as much as you like, I doubt anyone is really interested. The thread is about Young being a diver. Nothing else. He is, you've admitted as much yourself. And a lot of people find it a particularly objectionable form of cheating, not to mention often pointless and self defeating. Get over it.
-
Not sure how, or indeed if this adds to the debate but I found it a reasonably amusing read:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/oct/15/ashley-young-england-tricks
The late, great boxing trainer Ray Arcel was fond of remarking: "Tough times make monkeys eat red peppers." Nobody quite knows what the man AJ Liebling described as being "severe and decisive, like the teacher in a Hebrew school" meant by this, but the expression undoubtedly had the acrid tang of authenticity.
The United States boxing scene has a rich linguistic heritage, which is one of the things that attracted writers such as Damon Runyon and Ring Lardner to it. Arcel might observe of Joe Louis's opponents: "When they got in the ring they folded – like tulips," his erstwhile partner Whitey Bimstein might comment: "I like the country. It's a nice spot," or a manager might summarise changes in business practice with the words: "One time you had an argument with somebody you rolled a Molotov cocktail down his garden path, but these days it's lawyers, lawyers, lawyers." When you hung around guys like that, the dialogue took care of itself.
British footballers have rarely shown much aptitude for colourful or gnomic pronouncements, which is why we must applaud the efforts of the Aston Villa and England striker Ashley Young, who this week informed the nation: "I think age is just a number – if you are young enough you are old enough."
If the winger is to continue in this vein, then we are in for a treat. As Paul Gascoigne once said: "I don't make predictions and I never will," but in this case I'll make an exception and say that I have feeling in my bones that the winter will not long be over before Ashley has announced: "Form is class, but permanent is temporary," and: "We have nothing to fear but the stuff we are frightened of."
Young is clearly a man with almost as many strings to his cap as he has feathers to his bow. In the recent past he has also been praised by expert pundits for "having a trick". These days having a trick is considered vital if you are a winger. Before England's game in Switzerland Mark Pougatch on Radio 5 Live asked David Pleat if perhaps Aaron Lennon needed to "go away and learn a trick".
This conjured a pleasing image of Lennon turning up on the field at White Hart Lane one afternoon wearing a fez and bamboozling opponents by saying: "Glass, bottle. Bottle, glass. Ball, foot. Foot, ball," before doing his usual and falling over. Lennon isn't alone among English wingers in being considered deficient in the trick department. Before the 2006 World Cup Chris Waddle fretted that the then Middlesbrough winger Stewart Downing "doesn't really have a trick".
Waddle, of course, did have a trick. He hunched his shoulders and ran towards an opponent leaning forward at the precipitous angle of somebody charging the wrong way down a moving walkway. So ungainly was his manner that defenders went: "Pah! No point in bothering tackling him. He'll trip over his own feet in two yards."
No sooner had they thought this though than the boy from Pelaw surged past them and executed a crowd-pleasing step-over before pinging a pinpoint perfect 30-yard pass into the feet of a team-mate with the outside of his boot.
The only downside of Waddle's trick was referees were as fooled by his perpetual air of incipient catastrophe as opponents, which made it more or less impossible for the midfielder to win a penalty (or "pelanty" as he would style it). Even when blatantly hacked down – as against the Republic of Ireland in the group stage of Italia 90 – the official would simply chuckle at the geordie's apparent bumbling and wave play on.
In the past, wingers were expected to be tricky, but I don't recall a trick ever being demanded of them. Stanley Matthews had his "bodyswerve", of course, a mysterious action that was always talked of in awestruck tones but never truly explained – the football equivalent of transubstantiation. The great Brazilian Garrincha had one leg shorter than the other and is credited with inventing the step-over. This trick was later the cornerstone of the game of another Brazilian winger, Denílson – though the São Paulo star's greatest trick was somehow persuading Real Betis he was worth £21.5m.
Ron Atkinson was always fond of wingers doing something he called "little lollipops". As we know from the recent Serge Gainsbourg biopic, lollipop is French slang for an act of fellatio. I'm certain that's not what Big Ron had in mind, though it is true that the great Dutch forward Johnny Rep once told Holland's first openly gay referee, Frans Derks, that if he gave any more offside decisions against Ajax "I won't give you a blowjob tonight". Derks apparently burst out laughing, though Rep later claimed not to be able to remember the incident.
What sort of trick Lennon and Downing need to learn, whether the baroque if slightly naff Siegfried and Roy-style of sleight of foot favoured by Cristiano Ronaldo, something more homespun in the manner of Paul 'Not a lot' Daniels, or an edgy street magic act such as was once the preserve of David Blaine and which would fit nicely into a Nike advert, has not been made clear. Perhaps in time Young will explain.
-
I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.
Like my one? He didn't dive?
That's not an excuse, it's denial. I don think too many independent observers would agree with you.
What do you mean by independent observer? I'm always moaning about Young's diving for Villa, but usually only when he dives.
I think you need to calm down a little bit.
-
The most disappointing thing about this issue forme is that Ashley
doesn't need to dive / fall over without apparent reason etc,..
The guy is perfectly capable of beating an opposing player with
skill, speed or combination of both - end of.........if he did this more
often I'm sure fans of other clubs would pay him more respect and
dare I say it, some Villa fans wouldn't cringe so often when he does
go to ground
I have to wonder if the coaching staff ever have a quiet word in his
ear or is it that Ashley is set in his ways and will never change ?
-
I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.
Like my one? He didn't dive?
That's not an excuse, it's denial. I don think too many independent observers would agree with you.
What do you mean by independent observer? I'm always moaning about Young's diving for Villa, but usually only when he dives.
I think you need to calm down a little bit.
Well quite obviously I meant those who aren't likely to defend Young out of some sense of loaylty to Villa or the player. I haven't seen many, if any, of them that agree with you.
I'm quite calm thanks and your advice might be better served on yourself by the looks of things.
-
Oh yeah, I'm livid. I've just beat up a granny.
I'm defending him because he didn't dive. Not because he plays for the Villa. As I've said, I think he costs us a lot with his antics but he didn't dive. I don't really care too much who agrees with me. I certainly won't start raging like a crystal meth head and start calling everyone pathetic.
-
Yes, he's a cheating little shit and we'd hate him if he played for anyone else and got up to his antics.
-
Yes he does dive sometimes. Some h egets given some not. Sometimes he's kicked when he has the ball and sometimes he doesn't. Carry on diving Ash but don't make them all as riciulous as the one on Tuesday night as referees will single you out as a diver. Nothing wrong with it in my book.
-
I thought he did dive, he jumped with his feet together before the contact was made. :)
-
He was firstly fouled, had no chance of escaping the oncoming player. Wimp maybe - dive no. He just prepared to get clathered. And should have been a penalty, as it was an unfair challenge - Ashley lifting his legs or not.
-
does he elaborate at times? Yes. But instead of people crucifying him for this, how about sometimes we recognize and commend him for the fact that he gets clattered quite often yet never misses a game. For me, Ash is as tough as nails for a small player. Look at how many games Lennon misses by comparison. He's one of us, wants to stay one of us, and is one, if not the most important player we have. Let's get behind him.
-
So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver. Hysterical in both senses of the word.
And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young. For diving.
It's not hysterical in any sense of the word, that's just you struggling for an argument.
Exactly, the ref sorted it out. So why the need for anything else?
I'll repeat as you appear to be a little slow on the uptake. I accept that diving is cheating but it is only one of the many forms it takes and it is hypocritical to make more of this type than others. They'll all be dealt with by the ref if spotted and it is only because in this country it is considered to be somehow associated with those pesky foreigners that it gets treated with such scorn.
Chris you can rant about "other forms of cheating" as much as you like, I doubt anyone is really interested. The thread is about Young being a diver. Nothing else. He is, you've admitted as much yourself. And a lot of people find it a particularly objectionable form of cheating, not to mention often pointless and self defeating. Get over it.
What do you mean by get over it? You are the one that has a problem with it, not me.
I've still to see anyone give a cogent argument for why diving is a worse form of cheating than any of the others that go on in every single game. Unlike most on this thread I've given it some thought, not just blindly gone along with the accepted wisdom, and I cannot think of any logical explanation.
-
He dived.
-
He attempted to gain an advantage in his team's favour.
-
Ash last night:-
Running at players was decent.
Set piece delivery was poor.
Diving was embarassing.
Could read 'Ash last 2 seasons' I'm afraid
-
Sure I have a problem with it Chris, it's detrimental to the team as it wastes good possession and refs have cottoned on to him so it rarely wins a free kick (you said yourself he isn't even very good at it, despite all the practice). Dont you want what's best for the team?
Once again, the thread isnt about whether diving is a worse form of cheating than any other, it's about whether Ash is a diver or not. But for what it's worth I think diving is worse than claimng a corner, for example, for many reasons. Claiming a corner isn't likely to significantly affect the way a game unfolds, or the result. A dive quite often does as it often leads to a yellow card (making the opponent more wary of a mistimed challenge) or even a red card, a penalty, or a free kick in a dangerous area. All these can be game changing consequences. On top of all that there is something distinctly unmanly about throwing yourself around like a big girl's blouse, which is not the case with most other forms of "cheating". Were you thinking "it's all part of the game" as Slaven Bilic threw himself theatrically to the floor clutching his face and getting Laurent Blanc sent off in the 98 WC semi final or were you sickened by the cynicism and the consequences for Blanc?
Anyway I'm sure if Drogba takes a tumble in our box and wins a penalty today you'll loudly and openly stick up for him and say leave the poor chap alone it's no worse than Heskey claiming that corner that was clearly a goal kick. Perhaps you can report back to us how eveyone around you reacted.
-
Drogba* can throw himself to the floor as often as he likes today and if I happen to see it I will cheer him loudly.
there is something distinctly unmanly about throwing yourself around like a big girl's blouse
That's been my argument all along, the Little Englander mentality that has decided that this form of cheating is worse than others. You've been arguing against it and now are agreeing with me.
You appear to be under the misapprehension that I'm condoning it when I'm not. I'm just suggesting that it just one of the many misdemeanours that go on in games and there's no real logic in it as they're all, if spotted, detrimental to the team.
*He's injured.
-
Sorry you've lost me and probably everyone else. Explain how calling something unmanly is a Little Englander mentality? Explain how me giving several reasons why diving is a worse form of cheating means I'm agreeing with your assertion that it isnt? Bizarre.
-
And I;ve explained the logic of it being worse than some other forms of cheating - its potential game changing effects - but you've chosen to ignore it and gone for the little englander diversion instead.
-
Sorry you've lost me and probably everyone else. Explain how calling something unmanly is a Little Englander mentality? Explain how me giving several reasons why diving is a worse form of cheating means I'm agreeing with your assertion that it isnt? Bizarre.
The only thing that is bizarre is your inability to see an alternative point of view.
Because it's an attitude that only really exists in this country, in other parts of the world it's thought of as clever play if a forward manages to gain a free kick in this way. They will argue that if defenders are going to get away with kicking them why shouldn't they do something to redress the balance?
You haven't given 'several reasons', you've made a ridiculous comparison with claiming a corner.
By having a sliding scale where some forms of cheating are worse than others you are giving tacit approval to some of them.
I've ben watching football since the 70s and it has always been in the game, you'll never get rid of it.
-
I see your point of view perfectly but you keep ignoring the arguments to the contrary and going on about some inmaginery xenophobia.
How do you know that diving is only frowned upon in this country? You dont. And no-one mentioned blaming foreigners etc. so I've no idea what possible relevance it has to the debate. But let's accept your assertion for a second, that's it's an English thing. So what? Why should English people follow what people in other countries believe? Where I live they think it's perfectly okay to bribe government officials, judges etc. In the UK we don't. We have a different attitude to certain things, it doesn't make us xenophobic, just different.
And by your logic, if judges consider murder a more serious crime and give stiffer sentences, does it mean they are are tacitly approving crimes like burglary or GBH? Of course it doesn't. Again your argument is flawed.
Why is the comparison to claiming a corner ridiculous? Is it not a form of cheating? And haven't you stressed repeatedly, that one form of cheating is no worse than another? Therefore it's a valid conparison to use. And wasnt it you that first made that comparison anyway? So if it's a ridiculous comparison, why did you bring it up in the first place?
And finally it was only a question of time before you rolled out the "it was just the same in the 70s" line, because you always do. With one or two notable exceptions,(Lee, Gemmill) it simply isnt true.
-
I think he's labelled a diver by many refs and this is held against him.
He isn't getting all the decsions now for example.
-
I see your point of view perfectly but you keep ignoring the arguments to the contrary and going on about some inmaginery xenophobia.
How do you know that diving is only frowned upon in this country? You dont. And no-one mentioned blaming foreigners etc. so I've no idea what possible relevance it has to the debate. But let's accept your assertion for a second, that's it's an English thing. So what? Why should English people follow what people in other countries believe? Where I live they think it's perfectly okay to bribe government officials, judges etc. In the UK we don't. We have a different attitude to certain things, it doesn't make us xenophobic, just different.
And by your logic, if judges consider murder a more serious crime and give stiffer sentences, does it mean they are are tacitly approving crimes like burglary or GBH? Of course it doesn't. Again your argument is flawed.
Why is the comparison to claiming a corner ridiculous? Is it not a form of cheating? And haven't you stressed repeatedly, that one form of cheating is no worse than another? Therefore it's a valid conparison to use. And wasnt it you that first made that comparison anyway? So if it's a ridiculous comparison, why did you bring it up in the first place?
And finally it was only a question of time before you rolled out the "it was just the same in the 70s" line, because you always do. With one or two notable exceptions,(Lee, Gemmill) it simply isnt true.
Francis, Marsh, Bowles, Clarke, Johnstone, Nicholas etc. It's perfectly valid to point out that it's something that has been around for a long time as supports my view that talk of trying to eradicate it as pie in the sky. Wall to wall TV coverage and dozens of different camera angles make it appear to be more prevalent but I don't belive that to be the case.
Where have I accused anyone of xenophobia, your do have an unfortunate habit of twisting thing? I've said it's an English trait to view this form of cheating as worse than any others and everything that you've posted supports that. In other parts of the world it's viewed differently and I know that to be the case because I've read up on it.
I used claiming for a corner when you know it isn't as another form of cheating but it was one of many that I've mentioned but you, for your own peculiar reasons, decided to single that one out. Players will seek out ways to gain an advantage, some types bring more of an advantage but they're all designed to con the ref so one cannot be inherently more
immoral than another.
That's all, I don't expect you to change your entrenched second-hand opinion, I'm just offering a different perspective.
-
Isn't Drogba like 6'2 and 85 kilos? He could be playing in the NFL.
Atleast Drogba isn't playing today...
-
Young needs to start taking lessons from Chamakh. He has dived for about 2 or 3 pens and several free kicks this season and got them all given.
-
Marsh possibly, occasionally, and Willie Johnstone, but Nicholas, Clark and Bowles? I don't recall any of them being known for diving.
The term "Little Englander" generally implies an anti foreign sentiment, otherwise known as xenophobia. Here are a couple of definitions off the web:
a person who perceives most foreign influences on Britain's culture and institutions as damaging or insidious.
a term applied to English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic
and for Xenophobia = hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.
Perhaps you could explain in what sense you used it and how I've twisted it.
If as you claim, all cheating is equally as bad and immoral, then what exactly is your gripe with singling out claiming a corner unfairly for comparison? Or are you saying it's not as bad as some others I could have chosen? But hang on, that would be contradicting yourself wouldnt it? The "peculiar reason" for choosing it was the very fact that it provides a reductio ad absurdum to your claim that all cheating is equally as bad. Have you ever seen anyone yellow carded for falsely claiming a corner? I havent, and there's a reason for it, because it isnt regarded as serious enough. The very fact there is a hierarchical system of punishments from free kicks to yellow cards and red cards indicates that your assertion that all forms of cheating are equally as bad is not shared by the authorities. Nor by anyone else I would imagine.
I'll ignore the petty insults at the end as I know it's just your way of doing things.
-
So, did Ash dive when Terry smashed into him which resulted Terry the scumbag getting a yellow card? This is one of the many examples where Ash repeatedly gets badly fouled.
-
So, did Ash dive when Terry smashed into him which resulted Terry the scumbag getting a yellow card?
No. He gets fouled sometimes, but sometimes (like in the week) he falls over for no reason at all.
-
No that one wasnt a dive and Terry was rightly booked for it. I dont think anyone is denying Ash gets fouled, so I don't really see what your point is. There was another occasion today where he went down rather too easily from a very slight touch shoulder to shoulder when he was in possession in their half. Result, ref waves play on, Chelsea regain possession and launch a counter attack. There's no need for it.
-
So, did Ash dive when Terry smashed into him which resulted Terry the scumbag getting a yellow card?
No. He gets fouled sometimes, but sometimes (like in the week) he falls over for no reason at all.
Players don't fall over for no reason? I thought the point of diving was to gain an advantage by getting a freekick or penalty?
Whenever Ash goes down he's touched, and seeing as he has a small body-frame, his balance will get knocked over more easily seeing as he's not exactly built like a 240 lbs linebacker in the NFL.
-
Marsh possibly, occasionally, and Willie Johnstone, but Nicholas, Clark and Bowles? I don't recall any of them being known for diving.
The term "Little Englander" generally implies an anti foreign sentiment, otherwise known as xenophobia. Here are a couple of definitions off the web:
a person who perceives most foreign influences on Britain's culture and institutions as damaging or insidious.
a term applied to English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic
and for Xenophobia = hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture.
Perhaps you could explain in what sense you used it and how I've twisted it.
If as you claim, all cheating is equally as bad and immoral, then what exactly is your gripe with singling out claiming a corner unfairly for comparison? Or are you saying it's not as bad as some others I could have chosen? But hang on, that would be contradicting yourself wouldnt it? The "peculiar reason" for choosing it was the very fact that it provides a reductio ad absurdum to your claim that all cheating is equally as bad. Have you ever seen anyone yellow carded for falsely claiming a corner? I havent, and there's a reason for it, because it isnt regarded as serious enough. The very fact there is a hierarchical system of punishments from free kicks to yellow cards and red cards indicates that your assertion that all forms of cheating are equally as bad is not shared by the authorities. Nor by anyone else I would imagine.
I'll ignore the petty insults at the end as I know it's just your way of doing things.
Strange way to ignore something by mentioning it. It would like me saying "I'll ignore the fact you're thick" to a thick person. Fact is it isn't an insult, your opinions are entrenched and they are second-hand in that it is the accepted view of diving in this country, you didn't just come up with it all by yourself did you. It's also another example of your own hypocrisy given that you called me hysterical a few posts ago.
This is specifically about an attitude to diving in football, how can it be xenophobic to suggest that other countries view it differently? As I've patiently tried to explain to you it's just an observation that in this country we see it as a worse offence than in some others, just as in some European leagues a high boot is viewed more seriously than it is over here. It's just a fact and I'm not even sure why you have decided to take issue with it.
-
You can't possibly presume to know how I form my opinions, so it's obviously a dig.
Talking of second hand opinions, a few posts ago I said this:
"We have a different attitude to certain things, it doesn't make us xenophobic, just different.
And now you come out with:
"how can it be xenophobic to suggest that other countries view it differently?"
So you recycle my argment and then accuse me of expressing second hand opinions. That's some debating technique.
It was you who raised the ""Little Englander" thing and as Ive shown, that term is regarded as implying a form of xenophobia. If you don't agree with it, why use the term "Little Englander"?
As for entrenched opinions, that's a bit rich coming from someone with a long, not to say embarrassing, history of supporting certain Villa managers even when it is blatantly obvious to everyone else they are not good for the club.
-
Typically your whole post is personal rather than the subject we are meant to be dicussing. If thay's how you want to play I'm not going to bother with it any more. It was a decent debate until you got involved. Well done.
-
I remember stan Bowles and Allan Clarke both had reputations as divers although franny lee was worse- it's not something I like to see but in all honesty if ash had dived and got us a winning penalty in last years cup final how many of us would have been knocking him for it?
-
Typically your whole post is personal rather than the subject we are meant to be dicussing. If thay's how you want to play I'm not going to bother with it any more. It was a decent debate until you got involved. Well done.
Bye Chris.