Pau Torres

[Mellin]

Firstly, I think Mings cuts out the second goal. I don't think he effects the first. It was the same for PSG away. Torres not at fault for any, but we don't concede the first at home and maybe that night plays out differently. You're right though, that is subjective.

I don't want to make Torres the fall guy. He's a very good player and I love watching him on the ball, but the statistics are damning. When I have a bit of time I might go and fetch the goals conceded stats for Mings versus Torres starts under Emery. The difference will be vast. Eye test on this one, but Mings seems to inspire the rest of the backline (and the goalkeeper?) too.

I do accept that he has serious quality, but he isn't compatible either with A) the rest of the Villa backline, or B) the Premier League.

[Somniloquism]

Mings projects a forcefield which either stops Konsa from flicking it out, stops the attacker from shooting or stops the ball from landing on Emi's foot. Not sure which. But I am in the camp that Mings is a better defender, just that sometimes stats in football doesn't help when comparing Mings against Cardiff/ PNE with Torres against PSG / Citeh, there are lots of other variables like is the team setup to defend high or low, do we have Kamara playing brilliantly, having his occasional off game or not even starting.

Mings still starts in the Wembley matches though.

[RamboandBruno]

Mings projects a forcefield which either stops Konsa from flicking it out, stops the attacker from shooting or stops the ball from landing on Emi's foot. Not sure which. But I am in the camp that Mings is a better defender, just that sometimes stats in football doesn't help when comparing Mings against Cardiff/ PNE with Torres against PSG / Citeh, there are lots of other variables like is the team setup to defend high or low, do we have Kamara playing brilliantly, having his occasional off game or not even starting.

Mings still starts in the Wembley matches though.

Like the plural at the end. Fingers crossed.

[VillaTim]

It's not even close. When Torres starts the defence is weakened and more vulnerable . Mings passing isn't too shabby either , it's just a shamehe can't manage 3 games a week .

[Monty]

I think people see what they want to see. I'm biased towards Torres, I like the style of football he brings to the party, and I think blaming him for last night when a) Cash, Onana and especially Martinez fuck up for the first goal, and b) mainly Disasi fucks up for the second, and c) we're speculating that Mings would've cleared the cross when we really don't know that...well, I think people are seeing what they are primed to see as well. Big Man Eat Ball is also a bias.

I think Emery bears the most responsibility for the result because his tactics led to the performance, and what's more I'm next to certain he agrees.

[RamboandBruno]

I think people see what they want to see. I'm biased towards Torres, I like the style of football he brings to the party, and I think blaming him for last night when a) Cash, Onana and especially Martinez fuck up for the first goal, and b) mainly Disasi fucks up for the second, and c) we're speculating that Mings would've cleared the cross when we really don't know that...well, I think people are seeing what they are primed to see as well. Big Man Eat Ball is also a bias.

I think Emery bears the most responsibility for the result because his tactics led to the performance, and what's more I'm next to certain he agrees.

Completely agree on all this Monty.

[Mellin]

Relatively fair, but to be clear I haven't blamed Torres for last night and I've acknowledged that the clearance is subjective. It's a general observation.

Konsa and Torres are both passive defenders. They need a leader/Big Man Eats Ball next to them. Be it Mings next to Konsa or an alternative on the right-side with Torres. It was ever thus.

[PaulWinch again]

Agree Monty it’s just confirmation bias. I suspect Tim, for example, every time we concede a goal or make a mistake looks to see Pau’s proximity to it.

[eye digress]

Think Dave summed it up nicely on a different thread. We need both Torres and Mings, for their different qualities at different times. But that Torres (or similar) is where the team is heading overall.

Most of the good stuff we produced last night, notably first half, came through Torres. I especially like how he has learned to negate attempts by the opposing press to close down his options on the left side, either by playing off his right foot to good effect, or by veering right and carrying the ball through the press himself.

Maybe Mings might have stuck out a leg at that cross. Equally, had he been playing, it might have been more backs-to-the-wall and for longer as we surrendered more possession.

[London Villan]

Torres is a very elegant footballer - can pass, has vision and is progressive - we either need to find a way to defend better when he plays (see: Konsa, Carlos, Torres, Digne back line) - or we choose not to be as creative from the back.

[VillaTim]

Agree Monty it’s just confirmation bias. I suspect Tim, for example, every time we concede a goal or make a mistake looks to see Pau’s proximity to it.

Nope, i just look at the results and defensive performance as a whole (inc. goals Against) and see the pattern / correlation that has emerged.

[The Edge]

I think people see what they want to see. I'm biased towards Torres, I like the style of football he brings to the party, and I think blaming him for last night when a) Cash, Onana and especially Martinez fuck up for the first goal, and b) mainly Disasi fucks up for the second, and c) we're speculating that Mings would've cleared the cross when we really don't know that...well, I think people are seeing what they are primed to see as well. Big Man Eat Ball is also a bias.

I think Emery bears the most responsibility for the result because his tactics led to the performance, and what's more I'm next to certain he agrees.

He's an elegant defender and fantastic when we're putting a team to the sword but i just think that Torres lacks the mental toughness to be a top top defender. It's not all about ability sometimes it's about having the attitude of "thou shalt not pass"
My all time favourite defender is Gianfranco Baresi and he epitomised that attitude. Torres is too passive for me. Not for the first time he watched a ball sail past him and seemed to just give up. I don't know if Mings would of cut the ball out but I'm confident he would bust a gut and stretched every sinew trying too.

[ROBBO]

Yes Emre got the tactics all wrong, we should have been all out for the win yet played as if we were happy just to get the draw. Why he took JJ off and left Rogers on is a puzzle. Mings leads the backline, constantly talking and giving instructions Pau isn't a leader

[brontebilly]

Yes Emre got the tactics all wrong, we should have been all out for the win yet played as if we were happy just to get the draw. Why he took JJ off and left Rogers on is a puzzle. Mings leads the backline, constantly talking and giving instructions Pau isn't a leader

Torres is still a very good player, particularly with the ball at his feet. But failing to go at that cross last night was unacceptable.

I wouldn't hold it against Emery for selecting Torres for last night though or at home to PSG. Is Mings as outstanding against Newcastle and Isak without some bit of rest? Without Haaland it made sense to play Torres. But Palace - Mings comes back in for sure.

[Monty]

I should say that I too have a soft spot for Big Man Eat Ball, and that actually Mings is as underrated with the ball at his feet as (I think) Torres is without it. And I'm totally content to have him back to try and deal with Mateta, for instance.

I just think people focusing on the moment of the goal, missing the cross or whatever, are missing the point that they hardly made any chances at all despite our timidity and misjudged approach (we actually beat them on xG, for whatever that's worth), and a lot of that is obviously down to Torres defending well - and the point that it was the overall approach, inviting them on far too much and getting our pressing strategy wrong overall, that cost us in the end.