22/23 season expectations.

[paul_e]

I said loads of times I'd be dissapointed with anything below 8th the season because of the strength of our squad.  I still think man for man it is better than the squads of most other middling teams, I just hadn't accounted for how truly shit our coaching would be. 

I'll take 10th now.

I agree but I'm surprised to see you say this since you were claiming yesterday that our signings since Lange arrived weren't good enough and asking me if I thought we'd done better in the market than teams like Leicester, Brentford and Brighton.

[chrisw1]

I said loads of times I'd be dissapointed with anything below 8th the season because of the strength of our squad.  I still think man for man it is better than the squads of most other middling teams, I just hadn't accounted for how truly shit our coaching would be. 

I'll take 10th now.

I agree but I'm surprised to see you say this since you were claiming yesterday that our signings since Lange arrived weren't good enough and asking me if I thought we'd done better in the market than teams like Leicester, Brentford and Brighton.

Ah, you're a gem Paul.

Whether I think they're good signings or not, obvious over priced ones or not (that didn't take a recruitment genius to find) or that players haven't been signed with a clear pan or not, I still think the depth of an expensively assemble squad including Martinez, Digne, Carlos, Mings, Cash, Kamara (who I rate very highly), Ramsey, Buendia, Coutinho, Ings and Watkins should be better than most below the top 6-7.

That doesn't mean I think we couldn't have done somewhat better with a more astute recruitment team.   

[cdbearsfan]

My expectations are currently that we will finish between eleventh and fifteenth, get knocked out of the League Cup by Man U and get knocked out of the FA Cup in the Third Round by Man U/Man City/Liverpool/Arsenal/Chelsea/Tottenham.

[SoccerHQ]

We continue to underwhelm.

Frustrating though as Wolves and Leicester look locked in for nice long relegation battles. West Ham are improving but they are way off last two seasons.

Those have been top half regulars in last three years so there is void now. Brighton in mix but they could well drop off with the new manager so there's a really good opportunity to finish 8th which makes us just letting Gerrard wreak more damage game after game all the more bemusing.

[LeeB]

We continue to underwhelm.

Frustrating though as Wolves and Leicester look locked in for nice long relegation battles. West Ham are improving but they are way off last two seasons.

Those have been top half regulars in last three years so there is void now. Brighton in mix but they could well drop off with the new manager so there's a really good opportunity to finish 8th which makes us just letting Gerrard wreak more damage game after game all the more bemusing.

I don't think we'll finish above any of those teams if we carry on as we are

[Drummond]

It depends how soon Gerrard fucks off. But I'd imagine if he's here til the World Cup that we'll be 13th/14th and if we get a decent replacement 9th/10th. If he's allowed to stay longer.... shudder to think.

[paul_e]

I said loads of times I'd be dissapointed with anything below 8th the season because of the strength of our squad.  I still think man for man it is better than the squads of most other middling teams, I just hadn't accounted for how truly shit our coaching would be. 

I'll take 10th now.

I agree but I'm surprised to see you say this since you were claiming yesterday that our signings since Lange arrived weren't good enough and asking me if I thought we'd done better in the market than teams like Leicester, Brentford and Brighton.

Ah, you're a gem Paul.

Whether I think they're good signings or not, obvious over priced ones or not (that didn't take a recruitment genius to find) or that players haven't been signed with a clear pan or not, I still think the depth of an expensively assemble squad including Martinez, Digne, Carlos, Mings, Cash, Kamara (who I rate very highly), Ramsey, Buendia, Coutinho, Ings and Watkins should be better than most below the top 6-7.

That doesn't mean I think we couldn't have done somewhat better with a more astute recruitment team.   

I wish I had any idea what you expect from the recruitment team because right now it feels like the only thing that would satisify you is if we sign a complete unknown from an obscure league who comes in and is a sensation within weeks. Every other type of signing (from a fantastic free transfer to a very cheap deal on one of the world most expensive ever players to a whole bunch of very exciting teenagers) just doesn't seem enough to convince you that he's doing exactly the job he's employed for.


So what exactly has he done wrong, how are you certain it's his fault and what hasn't he done that makes you think he deserves to be sacked?

[chrisw1]

So what exactly has he done wrong, how are you certain it's his fault and what hasn't he done that makes you think he deserves to be sacked?

Well put is this way I think our only good senior signings under him are:
Martinez (hardley a hidden gem)
Cash
Watkins (despite my reservations and obviously a Smith not Lange signing)
Buendia (many would disagree but I like him - again not a Lange discovery)
Kamara
Carlos (maybe) 

Whereas our poor / misfit signings include:
Traore
Sanson
Barkley
Bailey
Digne (over priced for me)
Ings (good player but no plan to use him)
Coutinho (Gerrards signing I admit but didn't feel essential after a modest trial period)
Dendoncker

So what has he done right?  Kamara and maybe Carlos?  Two established internationals.  Nice one Johan.

[Sexual Ealing]

Carlos has never played for Brazil.

Yours,
A. Pedant

[chrisw1]

Carlos has never played for Brazil.

Yours,
A. Pedant

Fucks sake, a time consuming, researched and crafted post and you destroy it with simple facts?

[paul_e]

So what exactly has he done wrong, how are you certain it's his fault and what hasn't he done that makes you think he deserves to be sacked?

Well put is this way I think our only good senior signings under him are:
Martinez (hardley a hidden gem)
Cash
Watkins (despite my reservations and obviously a Smith not Lange signing)
Buendia (many would disagree but I like him - again not a Lange discovery)
Kamara
Carlos (maybe) 

Whereas our poor / misfit signings include:
Traore
Sanson
Barkley
Bailey
Digne (over priced for me)
Ings (good player but no plan to use him)
Coutinho (Gerrards signing I admit but didn't feel essential after a modest trial period)
Dendoncker

So what has he done right?  Kamara and maybe Carlos?  Two established internationals.  Nice one Johan.

Coutinho and Traore have done as much as Buendia has for us so there's a massive element of personal bias there.

Ings is not on Lange, the biggest problem for him has always been that we haven't had any idea how to use him. I'd say the same for Bailey as well both are good players but our tactics have completely nullified them. Try not to forget Bailey looked very exciting in his brief appearances under Smith when we actually played with wingers and knew how to use them.

Digne was maybe overpriced but, given we wanted fullbacks to be our main attacking threat out wide, he was an upgrade on Targett for that job. Not his fault that the tactic he was signed to play under has failed badly.

Dendoncker has played about half an hour for us so that one feels premature, that said I do think he was signed because we got bullied by palace and west ham and Gerrard decided we need a big unit in midfield to compete with those teams.

Sanson is just weird because he's looked good everytime he's played but just hasn't been given much time, I don't think anyone can really judge him because we're clearly missing something to explain why Smith and Gerrard have both sidelined him.

Barkley was shit, no arguments, but I get the feeling that was a Smith signing that was done to convince Grealish to sign the new deal. Not sure why you included him though when you left out other loans.

[chrisw1]

I know, Buendia is a personal indulgence because I like him.  Many would have him in the miss coulumn.

The overarching point is you asked me what he has done wrong, and finding excuses and yeah buts for virtually all his signings means he hasn't done much right.

Now look at Brentford, Brighton and Leicester's recruitments strategy and compare and contrast.  (I won't be doing this as I can't be arsed, but I suspect they have somewhat more hits than us).  I appreciate they have had better managers to develop the players, but even so you must be able to see a lack of imagination in our senior player signings?

[paul_e]

I know, Buendia is a personal indulgence because I like him.  Many would have him in the miss coulumn.

The overarching point is you asked me what he has done wrong, and finding excuses and yeah buts for virtually all his signings means he hasn't done much right.

Now look at Brentford, Brighton and Leicester's recruitments strategy and compare and contrast.  (I won't be doing this as I can't be arsed, but I suspect they have somewhat more hits than us).  I appreciate they have had better managers to develop the players, but even so you must be able to see a lack of imagination in our senior player signings?

They're not excuses, they're pointing out that the success or failure of a signing isn't purely on the recruitment team. If the coaching is failing, which you've already said you agree with, then recruitment will inevitably look worse than it is. On that basis writing off players who've been with us for a few weeks or who shown flashes of quality but been inconsistent is just wrong. That were outright bad signings I think Barkley is the only one with Sanson the only other that has a strong argument to include.

Traore is the one I really don't like seeing there, 7 goal and 7 assists in 36 games (a fair few of which were very short cameos) isn't bad for a winger, I know he was inconsistent, frustrating and didn't do enough in defence but I'd still be very happy to have those sort of numbers from 2 wingers/10s right now.

[AlexAlexCropley]

So what exactly has he done wrong, how are you certain it's his fault and what hasn't he done that makes you think he deserves to be sacked?

Well put is this way I think our only good senior signings under him are:
Martinez (hardley a hidden gem)
Cash
Watkins (despite my reservations and obviously a Smith not Lange signing)
Buendia (many would disagree but I like him - again not a Lange discovery)
Kamara
Carlos (maybe) 

Whereas our poor / misfit signings include:
Traore
Sanson
Barkley
Bailey
Digne (over priced for me)
Ings (good player but no plan to use him)
Coutinho (Gerrards signing I admit but didn't feel essential after a modest trial period)
Dendoncker

So what has he done right?  Kamara and maybe Carlos?  Two established internationals.  Nice one Johan.

Coutinho and Traore have done as much as Buendia has for us so there's a massive element of personal bias there.

Ings is not on Lange, the biggest problem for him has always been that we haven't had any idea how to use him. I'd say the same for Bailey as well both are good players but our tactics have completely nullified them. Try not to forget Bailey looked very exciting in his brief appearances under Smith when we actually played with wingers and knew how to use them.

Digne was maybe overpriced but, given we wanted fullbacks to be our main attacking threat out wide, he was an upgrade on Targett for that job. Not his fault that the tactic he was signed to play under has failed badly.

Dendoncker has played about half an hour for us so that one feels premature, that said I do think he was signed because we got bullied by palace and west ham and Gerrard decided we need a big unit in midfield to compete with those teams.

Sanson is just weird because he's looked good everytime he's played but just hasn't been given much time, I don't think anyone can really judge him because we're clearly missing something to explain why Smith and Gerrard have both sidelined him.

Barkley was shit, no arguments, but I get the feeling that was a Smith signing that was done to convince Grealish to sign the new deal. Not sure why you included him though when you left out other loans.

Disagree

[Risso]

Try not to forget Bailey looked very exciting in his brief appearances under Smith when we actually played with wingers and knew how to use them.

"Try not to forget" - bloody hell. He made three sub appearances of half an hour so before injuring himself in the Everton game, during which time he scored once. He was then mostly terrible against Arsenal, West Ham and Southampton. He was especially bad against Southampton. Whilst not being particularly scientific of course, he got a score of 3.32 in that match, the lowest of any Villa player. Of the 6 games he featured in under Smith, we lost 5 of them, and didn't start with any wingers at all in two of them. But yeah, he was playing when he played with wingers and knew what to do with them.