Gerrard In or Out?

[Brazilian Villain]

I think its utterly disingenuous to be frank. A very limited number wanted Smith out in January and then February 2019. The same latitude that was applied then isn't applied now and the issue for me is the feigned objectivity of these views.

These views have been hard baked in before his appointment.

Agree with this, it's been apparent for some time now.

[cdbearsfan]

What's your point, apart from proving mine?

We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.

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What's your point, apart from proving mine?

We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.

I'm asking why your patience is so limited with Gerrard when it wasn't with Smith. You just didn't want him and never will. I don't think there's anything objective in your arguments. The Gerswood use is an example. Its personal, not pragmatic.

[cdbearsfan]

What's your point, apart from proving mine?

We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.

I'm asking why your patience is so limited with Gerrars when it wasn't with Smith. You just didn't want him and never will. I don't think there's any objective in your arguments. The Gerswood use is an example. Its personal, not pragmatic.

I never wanted him for the reasons I have outlined. What has he done to change my mind?

Smith and Gerrard is a false equivalence, we were a second tier club then with much lower expectations. I don't see him as relevant to this conversation, you seemingly do. I can't convince you otherwise so may as well move on from that line of enquiry.

I'm confused as to what people have seen in Gerrard that makes them think he should retain the job  that isn't just "he was a great player" or "he should be given longer just because".

Those, or variations thereof, are basically the only pro-Gerrard arguments I'm seeing and neither seem to me to be in any way compelling.

The only positive I can see is that he was probably instrumental in acquiring Coutinho. That's a plus point, definitely. But that really is about it. And I'm increasingly struggling to see us convincing him to stay anyway.

So, basically, convince me. What's good about him? I'm all ears. I'm Andrew Marr.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

Certainly not personal for me when I say he’s doing a poor job at the moment and I’d like to see him do a fair bit better.

It looked good for a short period but it seems that the high press football was just new manager bounce rather than a style of play as it lasted a really short time. I’d like to see Gerrard get the players he currently has available showing a pattern of play over a 90 minute period, going at it for 90 minutes and getting some wins before the end of the season. I’d like to see him show he has some flexibility in his approach and tactics and the nous to make changes that reap rewards. This would give me some confidence ahead of pre season and transfers.

Good managers are 1) good coaches and 2) work with their team in an astute way in the transfer market. He’s not up to scratch on the first part of the job at present. Not sure on the second part as I like Coutinho and Digne but are we playing better since they joined? Jessie Marsch (wtf?!) has more points per match than Stevie Since they each took over their respective teams, each without a pre season.


There’s a fair bit of ‘Dean Smith got more patience’ going on in this thread. And if he did (which I’m not sure about) then maybe we should compare the league position each manager took over in and the state of the squad each inherited. Worlds apart.

While a few people want him out, others are exaggerating this to set up straw man arguments when Gerrard is criticised for the current s-show. I think most people just want him to do a better job, now.

Maybe some people just have lower standards?

[Beard82]

Personally I'd rather lose playing well than lose looking like we deserved it
If the performances are there results will follow.

Exactly.

Spurs first half - and the three game run - we haven’t really played well this year.  I think we’re about 15th since the turn of the year.  Odd spells here and there in most of the games - but I think he’s trying to play the wrong formation with the players he has available. 

You can see what he’s trying to do - but personally I would like to see him show more signs of learning.   

As I say - I’m still In but I think everyone would feel a lot better if we could get 3 or 4 wins in the last 7 games

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What's your point, apart from proving mine?

We are discussing whether Gerrard is up to the job, not a manager who has already been sacked for not being up to the job. I'm not really sure what your point is.

I'm asking why your patience is so limited with Gerrars when it wasn't with Smith. You just didn't want him and never will. I don't think there's any objective in your arguments. The Gerswood use is an example. Its personal, not pragmatic.

I never wanted him for the reasons I have outlined. What has he done to change my mind?

Smith and Gerrard is a false equivalence, we were a second tier club then with much lower expectations. I don't see him as relevant to this conversation, you seemingly do. I can't convince you otherwise so may as well move on from that line of enquiry.

I'm confused as to what people have seen in Gerrard that makes them think he should retain the job  that isn't just "he was a great player" or "he should be given longer just because".

Those, or variations thereof, are basically the only pro-Gerrard arguments I'm seeing and neither seem to me to be in any way compelling.

The only positive I can see is that he was probably instrumental in acquiring Coutinho. That's a plus point, definitely. But that really is about it. And I'm increasingly struggling to see us convincing him to stay anyway.

So, basically, convince me. What's good about him? I'm all ears. I'm Andrew Marr.

A false equivalence? Gerswood. A lot of deflection. It's fine to hold your opinion, just don't pretend it's evidence based.

[cdbearsfan]

That was a throwaway joke. Not worth getting too riled about. I can't promise I won't use it again, though, sorry. I've explained my reasons for not wanting him. Still waiting to read some compelling reasons why he should stay.

If not obsessing over his predecessor is "deflection", then I'll deflect away.

[Beard82]

I don’t see anything particularly wrong with being against his appointment and not happy with what they have seen so far. 

The bar has been set by CP that we want year on year progression - which would be 10th or above.  We probably won’t achieve that, we certainly won’t get as many points as last season.

There’s a reasonable chance that we could finish 13th or 14th which isn’t great.  His form over the last 10 games has been fairly similar to the first 10 games of the season.  But he has had a fitter squad plus a couple of world class additions.

So I think it is perfectly ok to question him, particularly if you had reservations in the first place.  There is a massive frustration for a lot of fans me included that we have gone backwards this season. 

He’ll get a pre season and will be backed - And hopefully that will be all he needed to kick on.  But I think either way your view is, is pretty legitimate. 

Hopefully his name will help us attract players we wouldn’t have been able to as a bottom middle half team. 

Hopefully he can get the balance right.  I have been very critical - but that’s because it feels like we may have missed another big chance to regain our love at the top table. 

It’s not personal against him - I actually have grown to like him despite myself, and I hope he does well but I think it’s ok to be disappointed about this season and with all the key players within it

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I think he should stay so he can build his own squad. I think he's got more out of Smith's post-Grealish squad. I think he proved me utterly wrong about a player like Marv in his short spell, as stubborn as I was. I think him being back against Leicester will help, given our absolute contrivance to gift the softest of goals, which we didn't when he played. We exerted a strangle on games such as Palace away.

I dont like him sticking with out of form players, but I don't think he rates the squad. I don't rate our spine and I have the ability of hindsight to admit I was wrong about the summer recruitment, it left us deficient in a key area we've been lacking for a few seasons.

I really like the way we play when we click. That 3 game run was very good, the 3 games thereafter were frustrating. We dont grind draws, a hangover from Smith too. Sours was probably one of the oddest games I've ever seen.

I think there's more structure to our play now from the jumbled mess that we ended with (the positions away at Southampton were grim). I think the system whether it's 4312 we've played of late or 4321 is wholly dependent on both Cash and Digne being fit. He doesn't trust the wingers, we as fans didn't particularly last season and Bailey is miles off.

I want to see him given funds to solve the midfield woes, solve the central defensive issue of giving a free gift every game. I want to see him attract more exciting players like Coutinho too, but my main aim is the dull, difficult work. That would be the same whoever was in charge.

I see absolutely no reason to jettison him.

[dave.woodhall]

Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?

[Sexual Ealing]

Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?

No. Unless they're already mates with them.

[Risso]

Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?

Well it’s worked with Coutinho and Digne so far.

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Without getting too deeply into the in/out debate, why should Gerrard's name neccesarily attract top players? Are footballers really so shallow that they will turn down the chance of trophes and Europe just because another club's manager was a good player?

We've signed the world's 4th most expensive player because of the manager.

[brontebilly]

That's definitely true of Smith, I'm not sure it is of Bruce.

He took over a team in 19th place with 10 points from 11 games and probably the most expensive squad ever in the championship and left us in in 13th place, with 15pouints from 11 games but with 1 fit centre half and a squad that was mostly coming up to be out of contract at the end of that season. I'd say he left us roughly where he found us, having been part of a group that took us to the brink of administration.

Bruce had no responsibility for the club being on the brink of administration. That summary also kind of glosses over being within 90 mins of promotion under the greatest shit show of a board possibly ever in charge of a club. He did a reasonable job stabilising a club on the slide including running McCormack and  getting Grealish back on track.