Anybody starting to get worried…… again?

[ChicagoLion]

Who has shown an interest/bid for Watkins at more than we paid?

Arsenal were meant to be interested in him for a "mooted" 45m.

[itmustbe_it is!]

Just seen these comments from Gerrard about Watkins:

He explained: “You are not going to keep every person happy every single game. It’s normal for people to criticise, point fingers, to be fickle. If you’re a player and you go looking for that I’m sure you’ll find it. For me it’s important the players remain focused, they believe in what we’re doing and they focus on their individual performances.
“I don’t think you gain anything, and you’re not going to improve yourself or your performance if you go looking for outside noise.
“It’s out there. It’s out there for me, it’s out there for all the players and if you want to find it, you can find it. My advice to the players is to ignore what’s being said on the outside and focus on what you have to do on the inside.
“I’m not saying stop social media. But if you’re on social media and you’re looking for negative comments and you don’t feel good about them then you’ve probably got yourself to blame

FFS. Gerrard out!

This is actually bang on

[LeonW]

I don't think it's fair to blame Gerrard (or Smith for that matter) for the deficiencies in the DoF role. They did a mostly shit job in the first year back, and haven't found the DM we've desperately needed for 3 years. The injuries to Traore and Bailey also can't be laid at Gerrard's door.  We've just got too many players who aren't good enough. Have a look again at some of the games we lost during Smith's last 5 games. The Arsenal match especially (with a full first team practically) was pathetic and we were fortunate not to be 7 or 8 down in the first half. Those players are still the backbone of our team, and half of them just aren't up to it.

If Lange has no influence then he is simply a shield or convenient scape goat for others. But how bad has the recruitment been since we came back up both under him and his predecessor? For the failures like Wesley, Samatta, etc, many of the current first team squad would be sold for profits tomorrow. These are the same players that have beaten some of the best sides in the land in the not too distant past and become internationals with their countries. If they were consistent, elite players, they probably wouldn’t have signed for us with where we currently are/have come from. Is SG getting enough out of those same players? Not for me. Is he going to get what Pep has at City (2 elite players per position)? No, so he needs to cut his cloth accordingly. This last week has been a disaster for his man management skills and the players know it’s easier for a club to replace the manager then a squad.

These are the same players who had lost five in a row, and would probably have lost the next five under Smith. Who do you honestly think we'd sell for more than we paid now? I'd argue:
McGinn (signed under Bruce before either Pitarch/Lange were in a job)
Mings - perhaps. High profile, England player.
Konsa - Yes, probably get £20m plus now
Martinez - definitely. The shining light of the recruitment policy

After that, I think we'd really struggle. No chance would we get more than we paid for Ings, Watkins, Cash, Luiz, Buendia, Digne, Traore, Sanson, Bailey. Not that they're bad players, we just paid top whack for them and a lot of them haven't even justified that fee yet.

Some of those names are out of form. But considering their age, the fact many won’t be on top dollar and many can still develop will all be things other clubs will consider and will be factored in to a transfer fee. I think if the same question was asked 7 months ago in the summer, the answers would be different. I think the way the squad has been built since 2018 has been a significant improvement on some of our approaches in the past which left us just trying to get wages off the books. Improvements are needed but how many other teams in the PL would you swap squads with? SG needs to show more.

[Beard82]

I don't think it's fair to blame Gerrard (or Smith for that matter) for the deficiencies in the DoF role. They did a mostly shit job in the first year back, and haven't found the DM we've desperately needed for 3 years. The injuries to Traore and Bailey also can't be laid at Gerrard's door.  We've just got too many players who aren't good enough. Have a look again at some of the games we lost during Smith's last 5 games. The Arsenal match especially (with a full first team practically) was pathetic and we were fortunate not to be 7 or 8 down in the first half. Those players are still the backbone of our team, and half of them just aren't up to it.

If Lange has no influence then he is simply a shield or convenient scape goat for others. But how bad has the recruitment been since we came back up both under him and his predecessor? For the failures like Wesley, Samatta, etc, many of the current first team squad would be sold for profits tomorrow. These are the same players that have beaten some of the best sides in the land in the not too distant past and become internationals with their countries. If they were consistent, elite players, they probably wouldn’t have signed for us with where we currently are/have come from. Is SG getting enough out of those same players? Not for me. Is he going to get what Pep has at City (2 elite players per position)? No, so he needs to cut his cloth accordingly. This last week has been a disaster for his man management skills and the players know it’s easier for a club to replace the manager then a squad.

These are the same players who had lost five in a row, and would probably have lost the next five under Smith. Who do you honestly think we'd sell for more than we paid now? I'd argue:
McGinn (signed under Bruce before either Pitarch/Lange were in a job)
Mings - perhaps. High profile, England player.
Konsa - Yes, probably get £20m plus now
Martinez - definitely. The shining light of the recruitment policy

After that, I think we'd really struggle. No chance would we get more than we paid for Ings, Watkins, Cash, Luiz, Buendia, Digne, Traore, Sanson, Bailey. Not that they're bad players, we just paid top whack for them and a lot of them haven't even justified that fee yet.

Some of those names are out of form. But considering their age, the fact many won’t be on top dollar and many can still develop will all be things other clubs will consider and will be factored in to a transfer fee. I think if the same question was asked 7 months ago in the summer, the answers would be different. I think the way the squad has been built since 2018 has been a significant improvement on some of our approaches in the past which left us just trying to get wages off the books. Improvements are needed but how many other teams in the PL would you swap squads with? SG needs to show more.

Yeah this is where I am.  I hope he will turn it round, as I like the way he wants to play, I just think he needs to show he can learn and adjust his thinking. 

[LeeB]

We are all, me included, assuming that Gerrard will make a good manager but what if we’re wrong?

His only experience to date is in a league where Alex McLeish won the treble.

This is the big issue - we have appointed a rookie manager, whose name has got him the job, with very little relevant experience.  It seems a big risk rebuilding a whole squad in his image, when we don't actually know if he is any good.

But, he will have made it very clear what he was expecting in terms of backing, so its for the club to decide if they have the faith in him - after 8 games I think we all did.  After 16 we're not so sure. 

You've nailed my biggest concern right now, namely reshaping a whole squad to fit a system I'm not sure will work, and then watching a year/18 months down the line as the new man comes in and demands the same. 18 months after that and we're what Everton are now. Again.

[Risso]

Our only real alternative to Luiz/McGinn is Tim Ireg Iroge Orega, erm, Tim. Gerrard was getting a tune out of Marvelous for pretty much the first time since he's been here, but obviously his injury was a set back. McGinn and Luiz were mostly underperforming under Smith this season as well, so not like it's a new occurence under Gerrard.

[Drummond]

I don't think it's fair to blame Gerrard (or Smith for that matter) for the deficiencies in the DoF role. They did a mostly shit job in the first year back, and haven't found the DM we've desperately needed for 3 years. The injuries to Traore and Bailey also can't be laid at Gerrard's door.  We've just got too many players who aren't good enough. Have a look again at some of the games we lost during Smith's last 5 games. The Arsenal match especially (with a full first team practically) was pathetic and we were fortunate not to be 7 or 8 down in the first half. Those players are still the backbone of our team, and half of them just aren't up to it.

If Lange has no influence then he is simply a shield or convenient scape goat for others. But how bad has the recruitment been since we came back up both under him and his predecessor? For the failures like Wesley, Samatta, etc, many of the current first team squad would be sold for profits tomorrow. These are the same players that have beaten some of the best sides in the land in the not too distant past and become internationals with their countries. If they were consistent, elite players, they probably wouldn’t have signed for us with where we currently are/have come from. Is SG getting enough out of those same players? Not for me. Is he going to get what Pep has at City (2 elite players per position)? No, so he needs to cut his cloth accordingly. This last week has been a disaster for his man management skills and the players know it’s easier for a club to replace the manager then a squad.

These are the same players who had lost five in a row, and would probably have lost the next five under Smith. Who do you honestly think we'd sell for more than we paid now? I'd argue:
McGinn (signed under Bruce before either Pitarch/Lange were in a job)
Mings - perhaps. High profile, England player.
Konsa - Yes, probably get £20m plus now
Martinez - definitely. The shining light of the recruitment policy

After that, I think we'd really struggle. No chance would we get more than we paid for Ings, Watkins, Cash, Luiz, Buendia, Digne, Traore, Sanson, Bailey. Not that they're bad players, we just paid top whack for them and a lot of them haven't even justified that fee yet.

If the players were that shit, why did we get rid of Smith, who knew them and had success with them (relative to where we were), and appoint an inexperienced manager who has done fuck all except win a two horse race.

If you believed that strongly that Smith should go, because he couldn't get a tune out of shit players, why should we have faith that the new manager will do better?

Regarding player value. Watkins (£45m), Cash (£40m, Luiz (depending on contact situation), will all sell for more than we paid. Bailey hasn't really played, and Buendia hasn't been here long but from what we've seen I'd argue he'd go for at least the same as we paid. Ings was always going to be top whack and just depreciate. Traore is an odd one. Digne would probably go for the same if not more, given his contract.

[Risso]

If the players were that shit, why did we get rid of Smith (snip)

The year since January under Smith gave just over a point a game, and then this season happened and concluded his time with 5 appalling defeats. His time was up. So far, despite the last 2-3 disappointing results, Gerrard has done better. 17 points from 13 games compared to 10 from 11. But anybody expecting him to sort out all of the problems in a third of a season is going to be disappointed and probably has an agenda in the first place.

[Chris Smith]

If the players were that shit, why did we get rid of Smith (snip)

The year since January under Smith gave just over a point a game, and then this season happened and concluded his time with 5 appalling defeats. His time was up. So far, despite the last 2-3 disappointing results, Gerrard has done better. 17 points from 13 games compared to 10 from 11. But anybody expecting him to sort out all of the problems in a third of a season is going to be disappointed and probably has an agenda in the first place.

The problem is that, so far, he’s made the problems worse rather than sorted them out. We’ve got better players that Watford  but despite us having the majority of the possession Martinez was the only keeper making saves and they scored the only goal.

His seeming refusal to change just looks like niaeve stubbornness at the moment and is perhaps a reflection of his inexperience. I want him to succeed but he has done little to inspire confidence so far.

[john e]

I think we’ll be ok with Gerrard
At least he has a system of playing and a definitive plan

Unlike every other manager we’ve had over the last 10 years including Smith in the end

[Risso]

The problem is that, so far, he’s made the problems worse rather than sorted them out. We’ve got better players that Watford  but despite us having the majority of the possession Martinez was the only keeper making saves and they scored the only goal.

His seeming refusal to change just looks like niaeve stubbornness at the moment and is perhaps a reflection of his inexperience. I want him to succeed but he has done little to inspire confidence so far.

How on earth are we worse off? We've won more games, got more points, and have generally played better football. 

[Beard82]

The problem is that, so far, he’s made the problems worse rather than sorted them out. We’ve got better players that Watford  but despite us having the majority of the possession Martinez was the only keeper making saves and they scored the only goal.

His seeming refusal to change just looks like niaeve stubbornness at the moment and is perhaps a reflection of his inexperience. I want him to succeed but he has done little to inspire confidence so far.

How on earth are we worse off? We've won more games, got more points, and have generally played better football.

We have also played more games.  Last 10 games points are exactly the same as the first 10 games this season.    Dean smiths last 13 league games in charge is the exact same points haul as SG 13 league games.

[Chris Smith]

The problem is that, so far, he’s made the problems worse rather than sorted them out. We’ve got better players that Watford  but despite us having the majority of the possession Martinez was the only keeper making saves and they scored the only goal.

His seeming refusal to change just looks like niaeve stubbornness at the moment and is perhaps a reflection of his inexperience. I want him to succeed but he has done little to inspire confidence so far.

How on earth are we worse off? We've won more games, got more points, and have generally played better football. 

We’ve just lost at home to a side who hadn’t won since November and who a month ago were beaten 3-0 at home by Norwich. The week before that we lost to another relegation threatened side without scoring in either game and we’ve only won once in the last 2 months.

I really want him to succeed and I’m not pining for Smith but at the moment it’s a concern that his one plan has been sussed out by opposing managers and he’s struggling to do anything else. I had hopes after his comments following the Newcastle non-performance that he understood but nothing really changed.

[brian green]

My views entirely Chris.

[Rigadon]

It would take a complete and unprecedented collapse to get relegated from here on the points we have already.  I’d be amazed if such a collapse has happened to any club.  We’d have to lose or draw almost all of our remaining games.